[ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)

Jack Haverty jack at 3kitty.org
Sun Dec 27 10:13:25 PST 2020


Hi Barbara - just curious... What did they expect you to be able to *do*
while sitting out there?   Debug code?  Install a patch?  Re-assemble
the OS?   Balance a VT52 on the hood of a jeep?

/Jack

On 12/26/20 9:42 PM, Barbara Denny wrote:
> Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the
> middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They
> decided they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff.
> I think it was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what.
>
> barbara
>
> On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>
> FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid
> Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea.
> /Jack
>
> On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> > Ho Ho Ho,
> >
> > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid
> > Internet Engineers.
> >
> > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.   We
> > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard,
> > since our role was just to provide the comm link.
> >
> > I do recall one event.   There was some kind of important demo coming
> > up, and the system wasn't working.  So all of the contractors involved
> > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech
> > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson.
> >
> > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego
> > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable
> > by any commercial air.  We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just
> > can't pull out.   But he told a great story on his return.
> >
> > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a
> > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been
> > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian
> > Ocean.   Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no
> > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng
> > non-stop flight.   In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at
> > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no
> > call button for the flight attendant.
> >
> > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson,
> > which was somewhere close by.  He and the other engineers (who must have
> > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the
> > demo was back in business.  MATNET was fine, something else wasn't
> > working, but all was well.
> >
> > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty
> > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really
> > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).  Well out of helicopter range. 
> >
> > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind,
> > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.   After
> > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat.
> >
> > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?"
> >
> > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really
> > good trips.   Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was
> > another possible good place for an Internet demo.
> >  
> > Enjoy,
> > /Jack Haverty
> >
> >
> > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
> >>  Happy Holidays! 
> >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add
> a few comments.
> >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter
> of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including
> enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio
> protocols in a packet applique.  This prototype was done by SRI and
> ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,  Indiana location.  I do think
> this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS
> production contracts.  I never was in the loop for this part but I
> remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and
> Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s
> at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any
> Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they
> supported any efforts in this area).   CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the
> focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with
> on the projects.  Paul Sass was one key person.
> >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the
> Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague
> memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to
> and from the ship.   I think part of the equipment SRI installed on
> board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.   We also had
> one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.   I hope
> my memory on this effort isn't too faulty.
> >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded  the Global
> Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).  Things started happening
> in 1994  but I believe most of the research contracts started in
> 1995.  SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996
> so I wasn't around for the whole effort.
> >> barbara
> >>
> >>    On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty
> via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote: 
> >> 
> >>  Here's what I remember... it's been a long time!
> >>
> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the
> >> early 80s.  For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects
> >> under my responsibility at BBN.
> >>
> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7
> >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by
> >> the NOC at BBN.   That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny
> >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al)
> >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a
> >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET.
> >>
> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl
> >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use
> >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.  So it was
> functional
> >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc.
> >>
> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio. 
> Instead
> >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets,
> >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.  Both were still in the "research"
> >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered
> >> "operational" at the time.
> >>
> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD
> >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces
> of the
> >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control,
> >> Intelligence).
> >>
> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which
> >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.  It
> >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with
> sailors in
> >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon,
> >> Intelligence organizations, etc.   That's what drove our thinking and
> >> decisions.
> >>
> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. 
> >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. 
> >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force?   All of that was a driver
> >> for research efforts.
> >>
> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were
> >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research
> >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven)
> >> Internet.
> >>
> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects
> >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into
> another.  
> >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing
> >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.  
> >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".   I'm
> >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g.,
> >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's
> >> operational systems.   But I've not run across much written about that
> >> aspect of Internet History.
> >>
> >> /Jack Haverty
> >>
> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote:
> >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN
> >>> supplied the network.
> >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI.
> >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start
> >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you
> know?
> >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until
> >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google.
> >>>
> >>> v
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> >>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>     MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based
> >>>     clone of
> >>>     the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core"
> networks of
> >>>     the Internet.  Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite
> >>>     IMP),
> >>>     with the MATNET nodes onboard ships.
> >>>
> >>>     Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for
> >>>     MATNET. 
> >>>     I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier
> USS Carl
> >>>     Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the
> >>>     time. 
> >>>     Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even
> brought the
> >>>     Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.   This was part of ARPA's
> >>>     "technology
> >>>     transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism,
> sending
> >>>     technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy
> to fund
> >>>     continued research.
> >>>
> >>>     I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.   But I do
> recall that
> >>>     Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start
> >>>     investigating that.   IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide
> >>>     a way
> >>>     to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.   Ken
> >>>     Pogran may remember more.
> >>>
> >>>     At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost
> contact with
> >>>     the Navy projects.  I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have
> >>>     been a
> >>>     follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology
> >>>     suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM
> >>>     conditions).   Probably also involved Frank Deckelman.
> >>>
> >>>     Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the
> >>>     "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our
> memories.
> >>>
> >>>     /Jack Haverty
> >>>
> >>>     On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>     > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not
> >>>     remember) and
> >>>     > MATNET (which I do remember)?
> >>>     >
> >>>     > v
> >>>     >
> >>>     >
> >>>     > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via
> >>>     Internet-history <
> >>>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> >>>     >
> >>>     >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via
> >>>     Internet-history <
> >>>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
> >>>     >>
> >>>     >>>  I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol
> number
> >>>     >>> assignment.  It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy.
> >>>     We had a
> >>>     >>> project called  Metanet that was looking at how to support
> TCP/IP
> >>>     >>> networking when ships were under emission control.  In 1984, I
> >>>     gave a
> >>>     >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest
> >>>     Group Meeting
> >>>     >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).  I don't remember
> >>>     us asking
> >>>     >> for
> >>>     >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon
> >>>     may have
> >>>     >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada
> >>>     implementation of
> >>>     >>> the gateway at that point in time.  I don't think we had
> the EMCON
> >>>     >> details
> >>>     >>> worked out yet.  The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on
> >>>     short
> >>>     >> notice
> >>>     >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.
> >>>     >>> barbara
> >>>     >>>
> >>>     >>
> >>>     >> Hey Barbara:
> >>>     >>
> >>>     >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project
> >>>     as a new
> >>>     >> employee at BBN in 1983.  The job on the BBN side was to figure
> >>>     out if
> >>>     >> different network topologies worked more or less well for
> >>>     shipboard command
> >>>     >> centers.  As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got
> >>>     TCP/IP working
> >>>     >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to
> >>>     something else,
> >>>     >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working
> >>>     on the 80MB
> >>>     >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.  Rick Adams at Seismo also
> >>>     had a Proteon
> >>>     >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.  And I swapped
> >>>     email for the
> >>>     >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using
> another
> >>>     >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments
> >>>     noted that
> >>>     >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch
> >>>     fire feature
> >>>     >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened)
> and Noel
> >>>     >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the
> >>>     fastest
> >>>     >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much
> >>>     to run on
> >>>     >> it).
> >>>     >>
> >>>     >> Craig
> >>>     >>
> >>>     >> --
> >>>     >> *****
> >>>     >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society
> >>>     activities and
> >>>     >> mailing lists.
> >>>     >> --
> >>>     >> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>     >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> >>>     >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>     >>
> >>>     >
> >>>     >
> >>>
> >>>     --
> >>>     Internet-history mailing list
> >>>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>
> >>>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
>
> -- 
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