[ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
Ian Peter
ian.peter at ianpeter.com
Wed Jul 25 23:03:59 PDT 2012
The whole thing is this -
If it wasn't for the eventual collaboration of government, business, and non
governmental interests - and the adoption by all these parties in other
countries as well - we would be talking about a failed US military time
sharing project called ARPANet.
It's nonsense to say the Internet was purely a government project, a private
sector project, or even a US project. Without the collaboration described
above we probably wouldn't even be talking about it.
The Internet is the *result* of collaboration - its almost definitional. So
there are no political points to gain, no ownership to proclaim, and no
fundamentalist economic and political theories to support here.
Just lots of individuals whose collaboration and vision helped bring this
about. And yes, some active governmental and private sector support.
Ian Peter
> From: <internet-history-request at postel.org>
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> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:08:30 -0700
> To: <internet-history at postel.org>
> Subject: internet-history Digest, Vol 64, Issue 24
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
> (Noel Chiappa)
> 2. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
> (Larry Sheldon)
> 3. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
> (Larry Sheldon)
> 4. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
> (Larry Sheldon)
> 5. Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and Commercialization
> (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really Invented the
> Internet?") (Jack Haverty)
> 6. Re: XEROX/PUP and Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon
> Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really Invented the Internet?") (John Day)
> 7. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
> (Larry Press)
> 8. Re: Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and
> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who
> Really Invented the Internet?") (Noel Chiappa)
> 9. Re: infrastructure history [was: who invented the Internet]
> (John Levine)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:02:36 -0400 (EDT)
> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the
> Internet]
> To: internet-history at postel.org, mfidelman at meetinghouse.net
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Message-ID: <20120726010236.E4CF418C127 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>
>> From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
>
>> It really is disturbing how some folks pretend that government had no
>> role in <name your infrastructure>.
>
> Please, this list is for discussion of Interent history issues. Can those who
> wish to purvey political flaming please take it elsewhere? Thanks.
>
> Noel
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:04:45 -0500
> From: Larry Sheldon <LarrySheldon at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the
> Internet]
> To: "internet-history at postel.org" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <501097AD.9000504 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 7/25/2012 7:09 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> It really is disturbing how some folks pretend that government had no
>> role in <name your infrastructure>.
>>
>> Seems to me that there's an ongoing historical pattern:
>>
>> Roads
>> Waterworks
>> Railroads (land grants, Army protection)
>> Telegraph (right-of-way grants, Army protection)
>> Telephone (right-of way grants)
>> Airplanes and Airlines (defense purchases spawned the aircraft industry,
>> Air Mail spawned air freight and passenger service)
>> Radio and Telephone (airwave grants)
>> and so on......
>>
>> Miles Fidelman
>
> The question here is "what is 'government'?".
>
> Is it some ethereal source of funding and wisdom the alone gets things done?
>
> Or is it the product of individuals pooling resources toward some common
> goal?
>
> I think for a long time it tends to the former, and most of what gets
> done, gets done in spite of it, not because of it.
>
> Most of the things in the list were first done by individuals and small
> groups of individuals, much of it in bitter opposition to the government.
> --
> Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
> of System Administrators:
> Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
> learn from their mistakes.
> ICBM Data: http://g.co/maps/e5gmy (Adapted from Stephen Pinker)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:06:11 -0500
> From: Larry Sheldon <LarrySheldon at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the
> Internet]
> To: "internet-history at postel.org" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <50109803.3010509 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 7/25/2012 7:09 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> It really is disturbing how some folks pretend that government had no
>> role in <name your infrastructure>.
>>
>> Seems to me that there's an ongoing historical pattern:
>>
>> Roads
>> Waterworks
>> Railroads (land grants, Army protection)
>> Telegraph (right-of-way grants, Army protection)
>> Telephone (right-of way grants)
>> Airplanes and Airlines (defense purchases spawned the aircraft industry,
>> Air Mail spawned air freight and passenger service)
>> Radio and Telephone (airwave grants)
>> and so on......
>>
>> Miles Fidelman
>
> The question here is "what is 'government'?".
>
> Is it some ethereal source of funding and wisdom the alone gets things done?
>
> Or is it the product of individuals pooling resources toward some common
> goal?
>
> I think for a long time it tends to the former, and most of what gets
> done, gets done in spite of it, not because of it.
>
> Most of the things in the list were first done by individuals and small
> groups of individuals, much of it in bitter opposition to the government.
>
> Some of the stuff in that list is proof of just how satupid and
> short-sighted government can be and is.
> --
> Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
> of System Administrators:
> Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
> learn from their mistakes.
> ICBM Data: http://g.co/maps/e5gmy (Adapted from Stephen Pinker)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 20:06:24 -0500
> From: Larry Sheldon <LarrySheldon at cox.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the
> Internet]
> To: "internet-history at postel.org" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <50109810.60307 at cox.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> On 7/25/2012 7:53 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>> Larry Sheldon wrote:
>>> On 7/25/2012 7:09 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote:
>>>> It really is disturbing how some folks pretend that government had no
>>>> role in <name your infrastructure>.
>>>>
>>>> Seems to me that there's an ongoing historical pattern:
>>>>
>>>> Roads
>>>> Waterworks
>>>> Railroads (land grants, Army protection)
>>>> Telegraph (right-of-way grants, Army protection)
>>>> Telephone (right-of way grants)
>>>> Airplanes and Airlines (defense purchases spawned the aircraft industry,
>>>> Air Mail spawned air freight and passenger service)
>>>> Radio and Telephone (airwave grants)
>>>> and so on......
>>>>
>>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>
>>> The question here is "what is 'government'?".
>>>
>>> Is it some ethereal source of funding and wisdom the alone gets things
>>> done?
>>>
>>> Or is it the product of individuals pooling resources toward some
>>> common goal?
>> umm... yes?
>>
>>>
>>> Most of the things in the list were first done by individuals and
>>> small groups of individuals, much of it in bitter opposition to the
>>> government.
>>
>> Not a lot of railroads got built without massive land grants and army
>> protection.
>
> I'm too lazy to look and I'm not sure the necessaries survived the great
> downsizing but my recollection is that lots of railroads were built
> before, during and after the great land-grab and giveaway to a few
> favored polls that had nothing to do with it.
>
> The cover story was the need for a transcontinental railroad to get at
> the pockets of people in the expanding West.
>
>
> We wouldn't have a lot of airplanes, if the Army hadn't
>> been a ready customer in the early days, and we wouldn't have air
>> carriers without air mail as an anchor customer in the early days.
>
> Actually I think it was the Post office that jumped on the existing
> airlines.
>
> And
>> when it came to ancient waterworks, we had kings/pharoes/etc. with lots
>> of slaves.
>
> Which is is the sort of government we are returning to, unfortunately.
>
> A lot of folks have died for nought, it seems. Fortunately, I'll be
> dead before it gets much worse.
>
> Most of the roads with "-pike" in their names were built by individuals,
> I don't recall that there was much government in the first
> transcontinental road.
> --
> Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics
> of System Administrators:
> Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to
> learn from their mistakes.
> ICBM Data: http://g.co/maps/e5gmy (Adapted from Stephen Pinker)
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 18:16:33 -0700
> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
> Subject: [ih] Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and
> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really
> Invented the Internet?")
> To: dcrocker at bbiw.net
> Cc: "internet-history at postel.org" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CAJLkZP=ef=Y0_1hXZqSSo-97pVTT7CkLSyV0kU1-s+ji_AyEiw at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Yes, of course; I keep forgetting that diligent and accurate aren't
> very popular any more.
>
> The idea of projects to proactively capture recollections is a good
> one. You would think that an entity such as The Internet, which has
> now touched a significant fraction of the population of the planet,
> has altered governments, industries, and individuals lives, and is on
> the tongues of everyone including heads of states, would attract the
> attention of not only technical museums, but also archives and
> organizations capturing general human history. I think it's bigger
> than just online panels and discussions.
>
> Some of my relatives were interviewed years ago, to capture their
> recollections of the events surrounding past wars they personally
> experienced. The US Library of Congress ran (and still runs) a
> "Veterans History Project" to capture thoughts and experiences of
> "people who were there" for use of future historians. See
> http://www.loc.gov/vets/
>
> Perhaps the Library of Congress (and other similar institutions) could
> be motivated to launch an analogous "Internet History Project"? I'd
> love to hear that announced in some campaign speech. Wars aren't the
> only thing worth remembering.
>
> /Jack Haverty
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 4:42 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc2 at dcrocker.net> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 7/25/2012 4:21 PM, Jack Haverty wrote:
>>>
>>> I can understand why historians have such a difficult job sorting
>>> stuff out from the distant past. We who were there all (think we)
>>> know from firsthand experience, but someone looking back a century or
>>> two might have real trouble.
>>
>>
>>
>> You are referring to folk who are diligent and concerned with accuracy.
>>
>> The real problem seems to have more to do with folk who lack one or both of
>> these necessary attributes.
>>
>> A couple of months ago, it was the invention of email. Today it's invention
>> of the Internet.
>>
>> What's most significant to me is how easily the inaccuracies are
>> promulgated.
>>
>> I've suggested to John Markoff that this interplay between actual Internet
>> history and media mis-history of the Internet is probably worth a story.
>>
>> I have also wondered about an effort to conduct a series of targeted, online
>> discussions among principals, to divulge and reflect on the history of
>> specific lines of capability. This would create a record of first-person
>> recollections. It might be worth synthesizing these into some live panel
>> discussions, as are often done at the Computer History Museum.
>>
>> A spontaneous version of the online part happened about email recently. It
>> was pretty interesting.
>>
>> For example, I had never realized that Ray Tomlinson's innovation was in
>> direct response to Dick Watson's, very different and less integrated
>> proposal of RFC 196.
>>
>>
>> d/
>>
>> --
>> Dave Crocker
>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> bbiw.net
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 21:33:24 -0400
> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] XEROX/PUP and Commercialization (was Re: FYI -
> Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really Invented the Internet?")
> To: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> Cc: internet-history at postel.org
> Message-ID: <a0624080ccc364d2cb116@[10.0.1.3]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed"
>
> Yes, for some reason that I never understood. The Host-to-Host
> Protocol was implemented by the Network Control Program (that part
> isn't so hard to accept) Then somehow NCP became synonymous with the
> Host-to-Host Protocol. NCP was used often and Host-to-Host Protocol
> seldom, and I don't think I ever saw HHP. ;-)
>
> I always wondered if it was because HHP just didn't roll off the
> tongue as easily as NCP. (Yes, there was at least one OS called MCP,
> but too few people knew about that for it to have been an influence.)
>
>
>>> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
>>
>>> Also, somewhere between RFC675 and RFC793, "Transmission Control
>>> Program" became "Transmission Control Protocol".
>>
>> I would guess the original name was by analogy with NCP, which was 'Network
>> Control Program'. (I always used to think, back in the day, that it was
>> 'Network Control Protocol', but when I looked, contemporanous documentation
>> basically always has it 'Program'.)
>>
>> Noel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 19:34:27 -0700
> From: Larry Press <lpress at csudh.edu>
> Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the
> Internet]
> To: Larry Sheldon <LarrySheldon at cox.net>
> Cc: "internet-history at postel.org" <internet-history at postel.org>
> Message-ID: <5010ACB3.3050001 at csudh.edu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; format=flowed
>
>> Telegraph (right-of-way grants, Army protection)
>
>
> In 1843, Samuel Morse convinced the US Congress allocate $30,000 to fund
> a pilot project -- a 37-mile link from Washington to Baltimore:
>
> http://som.csudh.edu/fac/lpress/471/hout/nethistory/index.htm
>
> Larry
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2012 22:36:15 -0400 (EDT)
> From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> Subject: Re: [ih] Internet History Project (was XEROX/PUP and
> Commercialization (was Re: FYI - Gordon Crovitz/WSJ on "Who Really
> Invented the Internet?")
> To: internet-history at postel.org
> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu
> Message-ID: <20120726023615.7C1B618C124 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
>
>> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
>
>> The idea of projects to proactively capture recollections is a good
>> one. You would think that an entity such as The Internet .. would
>> attract the attention of not only technical museums, but also archives
>> and organizations capturing general human history.
>> ...
>> Perhaps the Library of Congress (and other similar institutions) could
>> be motivated to launch an analogous "Internet History Project"?
>
> The Charles Babbage Institute already has an extensive oral history program
> in information technology:
>
> http://www.cbi.umn.edu/oh/
>
> A number of names from networking stuff already appear in that list (Baran,
> Cerf, SCrocker, Heart, Kahn, Kleinrock, Mills, Walden). I would probably try
> and get them involved if you wanted to do a more extensive networking oral
> history project; they know how to do this, to get the maximum historical
> value.
>
> Noel
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: 26 Jul 2012 05:07:29 -0000
> From: "John Levine" <johnl at iecc.com>
> Subject: Re: [ih] infrastructure history [was: who invented the
> Internet]
> To: internet-history at postel.org
> Cc: LarrySheldon at cox.net
> Message-ID: <20120726050729.43067.qmail at joyce.lan>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>> The cover story was the need for a transcontinental railroad to get at
>> the pockets of people in the expanding West.
>
> My, we're cynical. The Internet is one in a long line of technical
> developments that were done partly by private entities with a big help
> from the government, with a fairly straightforward public interest
> motivation.
>
> Railroads in the populated east were built entirely with private
> money, overbuilt in many areas. In the largely empty west, the
> government gave large subsidies in the form of land to the railroads.
> While this certainly made many of the promoters rich afterwards
> (something the students at Stanford University likely still
> appreciate), I don't think it's a huge leap to see why there'd be a
> public interest in making it possible to get people, goods, and mail
> from one side of the country to the other reliably in a week rather
> than unreliably in several months.
>
> For the airline industry, military money for technology and post
> office money for routes kick started commercial aviation. Civil jet
> transport started with the 707 and DC-8, both of which were designed
> both for civilian use and as military tankers, with the 707 borrowing
> a lot from the B-47 and B-52 bombers.
>
> So it really shouldn't be surprising that the government funded the
> packet switching experiment that turned into the Arpanet. It was a
> high risk high reward project that private sector (AT&T mainly)
> weren't going to do.
>
> R's,
> John
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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