No subject

a critical eye on those who make money from the Internet. Like Organization
Members. The Organizations are not exactly electing a puppet that will do
their bidding. Likewise, Organizations elected Larry Lessig. From Harvard.
Harvard is not an Organization member. Larry's raison d'=EAtre is the role =
of
society with respect to technology. Someone who is now working on reforming
the American electorial system to root out commercial interests in our
election process. These are not exactly people who will be imposing a
"heavy influence" of companies on ISOC.
> How about an even more extreme example: Chapters often elect people that
happen to be employed by Organization Members. Does that mean the Trustee
"represents" civil society or their employer?
> For that matter, what am I? I was appointed by the IAB, am active in
ISOC-DC, and am about to be (again) from an Organizational Member. Is my
employer an evil commercial interest that wants to use the Internet for
nefarious purposes, to wall the garden to extract monopoly rents, or to
silence opposition to my products? The last time I looked, the product of
Georgetown University is educated and fiercely independent women and men.
Do I represent the IETF? The Chapters? My employer? I would offer the
answer is everyone.
> PLEASE read the election procedures and the bylaws. While each Trustee
may be selected by one the three pillars of ISOC: individual users
(Chapters), commercial (Organizations), and technology (IETF), they
represent all aspects of the Internet. They positively do not and should
not represent the community that elected them. We are not a membership
organization. If we were a membershijp organziation, it would be
appropriate to have Representatives who represent members. However, we
are a cause based organization. Thus, a Trustee must represent the cause,
and only the cause.
> We certainly value the perspective the Trustee brings to the Board, and
thus we hope to get lots of perspectives from using a diverse electoral
base. That is why we have Trustees selected by the three pillars of ISOC.
> --
> - Eric
>
> On Mar 21, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Veni Markovski wrote:
>
> Fred, and all - see comments below.
>
> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Fred Baker <fred at cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 9:23 PM, Veni Markovski wrote:
>> > 8. ISOC does not represent civil society - for an independent observer
it is an organization, which is heavily influence by its organizational
members (companies), not by individual members or chapters. Good and not so
good.
>> > This point needs clarification - it's good that ISOC does not
represent civil society - there are many, who claim that, but ISOC is
unique as the home of the IETF. But it is not good that ISOC would not
encourage and empower its chapters to participate at the IGF/ITU meetings,
as they are indeed the ones, representing the civil society in their
respected countries.
>>
>> Veni:
>>
>> I do find myself wondering to what extent you think ISOC is driven by
its organizational members.
>
> To a very large extent.
>
>
>>
>> At my company, I'm among the small set of people that are involved in
and care about ISOC.
>
> That's understandable, but it's also something to worry about, if you
think from a certain point of view.
>
>>
>> Sally and others ask us questions and give us reports, but the
organizational members don't sit down with ISOC to give it its priorities.
>>
>> What specific influence do you think the organizational members have on
ISOC?
>
> The organizational members do not need to sit down with ISOC to give its
priorities - as you point below, they do it through the Board, which
consists of their representatives. Just as an example - when was the last
time the chair of the Board was someone, elected by the chapters or the
members? I don't envy this, I actually think this is what makes ISOC to be
considered widely as representing the technical community. I remember many
governments talking about ISOC in the context of the IETF, W3C, but I can't
remember one talking about ISOC as representing netizens, or civil society.
That is not a reason for any personal feelings, like envy. It's a reason
for the Board to sit down and think, "Why is that?", "Is it true?", "What
can we do to change it?". That, of course, if the Board believes that this
is a correct vision of ISOC. And if it thinks it is not, then what steps
would it take to make sure everyone else knows it?
> So, to respond to your question more directly - I don't envy anything. I
don't think the organizational members pay the right attention to ISOC,
otherwise they would have seen that there's certain value in having ISOC
represent the technical community, and the chapters represent the civil
society, the users. But if they, as you say, have only a small set of
people, who care and are interested in ISOC, then it is really sad. And
that makes the chapters even more important for ISOC, it seems, because
they are the ones, who care and are interested in ISOC in big numbers.
>
> best,
> veni
>
>>
>> BTW, I'm not asking about the board structure. Yes, I know you have long
wanted the chapters to have as many seats on the board as the
organizational members, but in this conversation, I'm not on that topic -
and neither are you. Parallel to your question about the role and influence
of the chapters, I'm asking about the organizational members themselves,
the advisory council, etc. What, specifically, do you envy?
>>
>> Fred
>
> _______________________________________________
> Chapter-delegates mailing list
> Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates
>
>

--=20
Best,
Veni

=3D=3D Sent from my phone, so any spelling mistakes are caused by the
touchscreen keyboard. That's a nice excuse, isn't it;-)

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And, also important: the conversation is not about you, Larry or any of the=
 past, current or future trustees. It is not an "ad hominem" atta=
ck, and I'm surprised you are making parallels to individuals, serving =
on the board. The conversation is about the principles of governing a big n=
on-profit, which can make a big difference in the Internet world. The world=
 today is different from the world of the past, and therefore Isoc should c=
hange to reflect the different environment and the new tasks confronting it=
. But let's try not to engage in discussions on individuals and trustee=
s. The main topic, the important one, is the policy and the structure. <br>
<br>On Saturday, March 24, 2012, Eric Burger <<a href=3D"mailto:eburger@=
standardstrack.com">eburger at standardstrack.com</a>> wrote:<br>> Are t=
here=A0any=A0examples of Trustees that happen to be elected by Organization=
s=A0representing Organizations?<br>
> Let's take an extreme example: Organizations elected Jonathan Zitt=
rain. From Harvard. Harvard is not an Organization member. Jonathan often f=
ocuses a critical eye on those who make money from the Internet. Like Organ=
ization Members. The Organizations are not exactly electing a puppet that w=
ill do their bidding. Likewise, Organizations elected Larry Lessig. From Ha=
rvard. Harvard is not an Organization member. Larry's raison d'=EAt=
re is the role of society with respect to technology. Someone who is now wo=
rking on reforming the American electorial system to root out commercial in=
terests in our election process. These are not exactly people who will be i=
mposing a "heavy influence" of companies on ISOC.<br>
> How about an even more extreme example: Chapters often elect people th=
at happen to be employed by Organization Members. Does that mean the Truste=
e "represents" civil society or their employer?<br>> For that =
matter, what am I? I was appointed by the IAB, am active in ISOC-DC, and am=
 about to be (again) from an Organizational Member. Is my employer an evil =
commercial interest that wants to use the Internet for nefarious purposes, =
to wall the garden to extract monopoly rents, or to silence opposition to m=
y products? The last time I looked, the product of Georgetown University is=
 educated and fiercely independent women and men. Do I represent=A0the IETF=
? The Chapters? My employer? I would offer the answer is everyone.<br>
> PLEASE read the election procedures and the bylaws. While each Trustee=
 may be selected=A0by one the three pillars of ISOC: individual users (Chap=
ters), commercial (Organizations), and technology (IETF), they represent=A0=
all aspects=A0of the Internet. They positively do not=A0and should not repr=
esent the community that elected them. We are not a membership organization=
. If we were a membershijp organziation, it would be appropriate to have Re=
presentatives who represent members. However, we are=A0a cause based organi=
zation. Thus, a Trustee must represent the cause, and only the cause.<br>
> We certainly value the perspective=A0the Trustee brings to the Board, =
and thus we hope to get lots of perspectives from using a diverse electoral=
 base. That is why we have Trustees selected by=A0the three pillars of ISOC=
.<br>
> --<br>> - Eric<br>><br>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Veni M=
arkovski wrote:<br>><br>> Fred, and all - see comments below.<br>>=
<br>> On Wed, Mar 21, 2012 at 10:11 PM, Fred Baker <<a href=3D"mailto=
:fred at cisco.com">fred at cisco.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>>> On Mar 21, 2012, at 9:23 PM, Veni Markovski wrote:<br>=
>> > 8. ISOC does not represent civil society - for an independent=
 observer it is an organization, which is heavily influence by its organiza=
tional members (companies), not by individual members or chapters. Good and=
 not so good.<br>
>> > This point needs clarification - it's good that ISOC does=
 not represent civil society - there are many, who claim that, but ISOC is =
unique as the home of the IETF. But it is not good that ISOC would not enco=
urage and empower its chapters to participate at the IGF/ITU meetings, as t=
hey are indeed the ones, representing the civil society in their respected =
countries.<br>
>><br>>> Veni:<br>>><br>>> I do find myself wonderi=
ng to what extent you think ISOC is driven by its organizational members.<b=
r>><br>> To a very large extent.<br>><br>> =A0<br>>><br>
>> At my company, I'm among the small set of people that are invo=
lved in and care about ISOC.<br>><br>> That's understandable, but=
 it's also something to worry about, if you think from a certain point =
of view.<br>
> =A0<br>>><br>>> Sally and others ask us questions and give=
 us reports, but the organizational members don't sit down with ISOC to=
 give it its priorities.<br>>><br>>> What specific influence do=
 you think the organizational members have on ISOC?<br>
><br>> The organizational members do not need to sit down with ISOC t=
o give its priorities - as you point below, they do it through the Board, w=
hich consists of their representatives. Just as an example - when was the l=
ast time the chair of the Board was someone, elected by the chapters or the=
 members? I don't envy this, I actually think this is what makes ISOC t=
o be considered widely as representing the technical community. I remember =
many governments talking about ISOC in the context of the IETF, W3C, but I =
can't remember one talking about ISOC as representing netizens, or civi=
l society. That is not a reason for any personal feelings, like envy. It&#3=
9;s a reason for the Board to sit down and think, "Why is that?",=
 "Is it true?", "What can we do to change it?". That, o=
f course, if the Board believes that this is a correct vision of ISOC. And =
if it thinks it is not, then what steps would it take to make sure everyone=
 else knows it?<br>
> So, to respond to your question more directly - I don't envy anyth=
ing. I don't think the organizational members pay the right attention t=
o ISOC, otherwise they would have seen that there's certain value in ha=
ving ISOC represent the technical community, and the chapters represent the=
 civil society, the users. But if they, as you say, have only a small set o=
f people, who care and are interested in ISOC, then it is really sad. And t=
hat makes the chapters even more important for ISOC, it seems, because they=
 are the ones, who care and are interested in ISOC in big numbers.<br>
><br>> best,<br>> veni<br>><br>>><br>>> BTW, I'=
m not asking about the board structure. Yes, I know you have long wanted th=
e chapters to have as many seats on the board as the organizational members=
, but in this conversation, I'm not on that topic - and neither are you=
. Parallel to your question about the role and influence of the chapters, I=
'm asking about the organizational members themselves, the advisory cou=
ncil, etc. What, specifically, do you envy?<br>
>><br>>> Fred<br>><br>> _________________________________=
______________<br>> Chapter-delegates mailing list<br>> <a href=3D"ma=
ilto:Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org">Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org</=
a><br>
> <a href=3D"https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates"=
>https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates</a><br>><br>=
><br><br>-- <br>Best,<br>Veni<p>=3D=3D Sent from my phone, so any spelli=
ng mistakes are caused by the touchscreen keyboard. That's a nice excus=
e, isn't it;-)<br>
</p>

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