[Chapter-delegates] Fwd: Urgent: Signature of the updated ISOC Chapter Charter Letter

Tue Dec 11 13:19:55 PST 2018

Just a quick question: isn't there a difference between an affiliate and a
franchise?

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 10:17 pm Adebunmi AKINBO <akinbo.adebunmi at gmail.com
wrote:

> Greg,
> You took the words out of my mouth. Very correct. I must thank the
> honorable Dr. for his correction and information.
>
> I recall similar issues arose in ICANN. A case with reference to
> .shoprite. When it comes to trademarks, tradename or intellectual property.
>
> I hope we can all resolve this issue. It's closer than we think to a
> Brexit discussion (ZAxit?).
>
> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 10:00 pm Greg Shatan <greg at isoc-ny.org wrote:
>
>> All,
>>
>> If there is more than one Internet Society chapter in South Africa (and
>> there is), that adds another level to this issue.  If ISOC-ZA is in fact
>> the owner of the INTERNET SOCIETY trademark in South Africa, then it seems
>> that ISOC-ZA could demand that the Guateng Chapter either take a license
>> from ISOC-ZA or cease using the INTERNET SOCIETY name.
>>
>> Similarly, ISOC-ZA could seek to block the establishment of any future
>> Internet Society chapters in South Africa.  ISOC-ZA could also seek to bar
>> any use of INTERNET SOCIETY in South Africa as a trade mark or trade name,
>> e.g., by ISOC Global or by any other ISOC chapter.
>>
>> If ISOC-ZA is not the owner of the INTERNET SOCIETY trademark in South
>> Africa, it would appear that these potential problems do not arise.
>>
>> Just my thoughts. (Not legal advice.  Actual legal advice would require a
>> South African lawyer specializing in trademark law.)
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 2:58 PM Ram CFO <ram.cfo at icloud.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Adebunmi,
>>>
>>> Please let me clarify that this is not the case for Internet Society
>>> South Africa as a country as the Gauteng Chapter, also based in South
>>> Africa, is not having this problem.
>>>
>>> Warm regards,
>>>
>>> *Dr K. Ram, Ph. D, MBA, CFO(SA)*
>>> Published Author | Entrepreneur | CFO(SA)
>>> Dr Ram Professional Profile <https://www.linkedin.com/in/kramphd/>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 11 Dec 2018, at 21:23, Adebunmi AKINBO <akinbo.adebunmi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Officers et al...
>>> Just an honest Opinion or my opinion.
>>>
>>> The Internet Society my not have a sovereign right to that name in South
>>> Africa but choosing to  e an affiliate implies that you have to follow a
>>> rule.
>>>
>>> I recall when I started ISOC-NG States and was asked to drop the logo;
>>> we dropped the logo and the name ISOC and became NG-States. Rejuvenation as
>>> stated in the group led to what we have today.
>>>
>>> We must be sincere to note that ISOC is growing and certain things will
>>> change. We advise that you reach a compromise and move ahead to
>>> #shapetomorrow.
>>>
>>> Regards.
>>>
>>> Akinbo
>>> NG-States...
>>>
>>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 5:02 pm Veni Markovski <veni at veni.com wrote:
>>>
>>>> This is an issue, which should be taken off the list, IMHO, and dealt
>>>> with in a mutually beneficial way.
>>>> There are other organizations, which were created with their names
>>>> "Internet Society - [name of country]" long before the recent letter, and
>>>> certainly they are legal under their national legislation, and it would be
>>>> challenging for ISOC.org to claim these organizations cannot use the
>>>> name, just because they are chapters. In fact, in some cases I can
>>>> remember, the national organizations were not chapters, but they still had
>>>> the name. If ISOC has (R) the brand around the world, that may be a
>>>> different case, but it hasn't, AFAIK.
>>>>
>>>> So, I read your two messages as a concern, not as a way to put an end
>>>> to decades of relationship. Right?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Veni
>>>> ISOC Bulgaria
>>>>
>>>> On 12/11/18 10:26, Alan Levin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Raul,
>>>>
>>>> Kind thanks for your email.
>>>>
>>>> I would very much like to discuss this further, I have been discussing
>>>> it with our team for over 18 months and certainly been providing all the
>>>> feedback to you via Christine. She confirmed that she has discussed this
>>>> with you and the whole team so I thought you had all made up your minds.
>>>> This email was only to share your decision with my colleagues.
>>>>
>>>> We want to stay an affiliated Chapter. I have told you this face to
>>>> face last year in Cape Town.  We also wish to retain some sovereignty as is
>>>> consistent with all our communications.
>>>>
>>>> I sent the email to the Chapter list only because Christine has
>>>> suggested that all the Chapters concur with you and I was hopeful to obtain
>>>> some support from other chapters.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 5:12 PM Raul Echeberria <echeberria at isoc.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Alan:
>>>>>
>>>>> Your characterization of the relationship between Internet Society
>>>>> chapters and Internet Society organization is very far from the real
>>>>> situation.
>>>>> We have had an open discussion within the Chapters community about
>>>>> this letter for more than 1 year and most of the inputs, feedbacks and also
>>>>> the special requirements based on local laws, have been considered.
>>>>>
>>>>> I can not make a legal opinion about the use of our brand in South
>>>>> Africa since it is not my matter of expertise. And if needed, I hope we
>>>>> have a civilized conversation about that specific issue.
>>>>>
>>>>> You recently asked to discuss this issue with ISOC’s CEO, Andrew
>>>>> Sullivan, and I passed this request to him just a few minutes before you
>>>>> sent your email. The language you use in your text doesn’t seem very
>>>>> compatible with an attitude of dialogue. Let me know please later (on or
>>>>> off list, as you prefer)  if you are still interested in having further
>>>>> discussions about this matter  or you are just  parting ways,  as your
>>>>> email suggests.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Raúl
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > El 11 dic. 2018, a las 11:52, Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za>
>>>>> escribió:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Dear friends and colleagues,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > It seems that your top-down model is taking over (I say "yours"
>>>>> since I am told over 110 of you have signed this agreement).   ISOC-ZA have
>>>>> agreed not to relinquish the name Internet Society to the benevolent
>>>>> dictator in the USA, i.e. we believe we own this name in our Geography. So
>>>>> - as discussed always - we have taken out the part that says "The Internet
>>>>> Society hereby grants the Chapter a limited, revocable, non-exclusive
>>>>> license to use the name “Internet Society”.  We also reserve the right to
>>>>> be called the Internet Society of South Africa as we have in the past, and
>>>>> not how ISOC may determine from time to time how we should be named (as per
>>>>> the same part of the agreement we are being "forced" to sign).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > i.e. we established ourselves independently as a Chapter in our
>>>>> Geography and in 1998 that allowed us sovereignty and ownership of the name
>>>>> Internet Society. Since then we have established ourselves as a local civil
>>>>> society organisation that has mostly focused on local policy making
>>>>> activities relating to the Internet.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Unfortunately now the "mother ship" has told us that we must
>>>>> relinquish our name to them and accept that we use it only under their
>>>>> license. Since we do not agree they wish to fight us / exclude us / or as
>>>>> they state "put us into "rehabilitation".
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I have been a member of this list for over 15 years, I suppose they
>>>>> will boot me soon... We do have affiliation with ISOC Libya and ISOC China
>>>>> who are not affiliated with ISOC-global, so please do be in contact if you
>>>>> wish to make a bilateral affiliation (if you think you are allowed :P).
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Cheers, Happy Holidays, Warm regards
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Alan Levin
>>>>> > Chairman ISOC-ZA
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>>> > From: Christine Saegesser <saegesser at isoc.org>
>>>>> > Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:54 AM
>>>>> > Subject: Re: Urgent: Signature of the updated ISOC Chapter Charter
>>>>> Letter
>>>>> > To: Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za>
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Dear Alan,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I’d like to get back to you on this after further consultation among
>>>>> the team and our legal team.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Chapters are very important to the work of the Internet Society to
>>>>> keep the Internet open, transparent and for the benefit of all people
>>>>> throughout the world.  Community engagement around our main campaigns and
>>>>> other important programmes is a key element of the Internet Society’s 2019
>>>>> Action Plan and is very close to the heart of our leadership team and
>>>>> especially our new President and CEO, Andrew Sullivan.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We now have 110 Chapters who signed the letter in its current
>>>>> version and we’d like to invite you again to consider signing the letter as
>>>>> it is. We will not be able to make these compromises on the points related
>>>>> to the use of the Internet Society trademark, logos and independence.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > As you know, the final version of the updated Chapter Charter letter
>>>>> was shared for signature with all Internet Society Chapters at the
>>>>> beginning of 2018, following the extensive community consultation process
>>>>> undertaken last year to develop and finalise this version of the letter.
>>>>> The Chapter Charter letter defines the Internet Society’s relationship with
>>>>> its Chapters and vice versa, it sets out our respective responsibilities
>>>>> and limits liabilities.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > From what we know, the constitution of the South Africa Chapter
>>>>> (from 2007) says the following with regards to the name of the Chapter:
>>>>> "The name of the association is the South African Chapter of the Internet
>>>>> Society and the recognised abbreviation thereof shall be ISOC-ZA.“ We thus
>>>>> understand that the Chapter was registered under this name with the very
>>>>> specific aim of being an Internet Society Chapter.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Based on this, we hope you will be able to sign the letter without
>>>>> the edits (see attached). The final deadline for all Chapters to have their
>>>>> Charter letters signed is 31 December 2018.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > According to the Internet Society's Chapter processes, as
>>>>> acknowledged by the Internet Society Board of Trustees during their last
>>>>> meeting, Chapters that have not signed the current version of the Chapter
>>>>> Charter letter will have to be put into rejuvenation. See also:
>>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/chapters/processes/
>>>>> >
>>>>> > We hope we’ll be able to avoid that and look forward to hearing from
>>>>> you.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Best regards,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Christine
>>>>> >
>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > Internet Society (ISOC)
>>>>> > Christine Saegesser Baethge
>>>>> > Senior Manager Global Chapter Development
>>>>> > Website: www.InternetSociety.org
>>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > > On 4. Oct 2018, at 13:41, Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za> wrote:
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Hi Christine,
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 1:20 PM Christine Saegesser <
>>>>> saegesser at isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>> > > The conclusion of that discussion is that we’d be happy to make
>>>>> compromises on some of the minor edits you made.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Thanks, there are some minor improvements I can make to them too.
>>>>> I also got some advice from an American member...
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > However, there are several reasons why we cannot agree to the
>>>>> deletion of the points related to the use of the Internet Society
>>>>> trademark, logos and independence.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > So after some consideration we are willing to relinquish the logo,
>>>>> but the name Internet Society is our name in our geography - we have been
>>>>> independently trading with it since 1998 - and what we believe you consider
>>>>> the "trademark". We will not relinquish our name :)
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > How does that sound?
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Alan
>>>>> > > --
>>>>> > > Alan Levin
>>>>> > > ----------------------------------
>>>>> > > Chairman ISOC-ZA
>>>>> > > +27 21 4882820 (ddi)
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> <2018_ISOC_Chapter_Charter_Agreement-EN_for_signature.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>>>> > As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>>> subscribed
>>>>> > to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet
>>>>> Society
>>>>> > Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Alan Levin
>>>> ----------------------------------
>>>> Chairman ISOC-ZA
>>>> +27 21 4882820 (ddi)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Venihttp://www.veni.com
>>>> pgp:5BA1366E veni at veni.com
>>>>
>>>> The opinions expressed above are those of the
>>>> author, not of any organizations, associated
>>>> with or related to him in any given way.
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>
>>
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