[Chapter-delegates] Fwd: Urgent: Signature of the updated ISOC Chapter Charter Letter

Tue Dec 11 13:17:30 PST 2018

Greg,
You took the words out of my mouth. Very correct. I must thank the
honorable Dr. for his correction and information.

I recall similar issues arose in ICANN. A case with reference to .shoprite.
When it comes to trademarks, tradename or intellectual property.

I hope we can all resolve this issue. It's closer than we think to a Brexit
discussion (ZAxit?).

On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 10:00 pm Greg Shatan <greg at isoc-ny.org wrote:

> All,
>
> If there is more than one Internet Society chapter in South Africa (and
> there is), that adds another level to this issue.  If ISOC-ZA is in fact
> the owner of the INTERNET SOCIETY trademark in South Africa, then it seems
> that ISOC-ZA could demand that the Guateng Chapter either take a license
> from ISOC-ZA or cease using the INTERNET SOCIETY name.
>
> Similarly, ISOC-ZA could seek to block the establishment of any future
> Internet Society chapters in South Africa.  ISOC-ZA could also seek to bar
> any use of INTERNET SOCIETY in South Africa as a trade mark or trade name,
> e.g., by ISOC Global or by any other ISOC chapter.
>
> If ISOC-ZA is not the owner of the INTERNET SOCIETY trademark in South
> Africa, it would appear that these potential problems do not arise.
>
> Just my thoughts. (Not legal advice.  Actual legal advice would require a
> South African lawyer specializing in trademark law.)
>
> Best regards,
>
> Greg
>
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 2:58 PM Ram CFO <ram.cfo at icloud.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear Adebunmi,
>>
>> Please let me clarify that this is not the case for Internet Society
>> South Africa as a country as the Gauteng Chapter, also based in South
>> Africa, is not having this problem.
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> *Dr K. Ram, Ph. D, MBA, CFO(SA)*
>> Published Author | Entrepreneur | CFO(SA)
>> Dr Ram Professional Profile <https://www.linkedin.com/in/kramphd/>
>>
>>
>> On 11 Dec 2018, at 21:23, Adebunmi AKINBO <akinbo.adebunmi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Officers et al...
>> Just an honest Opinion or my opinion.
>>
>> The Internet Society my not have a sovereign right to that name in South
>> Africa but choosing to  e an affiliate implies that you have to follow a
>> rule.
>>
>> I recall when I started ISOC-NG States and was asked to drop the logo; we
>> dropped the logo and the name ISOC and became NG-States. Rejuvenation as
>> stated in the group led to what we have today.
>>
>> We must be sincere to note that ISOC is growing and certain things will
>> change. We advise that you reach a compromise and move ahead to
>> #shapetomorrow.
>>
>> Regards.
>>
>> Akinbo
>> NG-States...
>>
>> On Tue, 11 Dec 2018, 5:02 pm Veni Markovski <veni at veni.com wrote:
>>
>>> This is an issue, which should be taken off the list, IMHO, and dealt
>>> with in a mutually beneficial way.
>>> There are other organizations, which were created with their names
>>> "Internet Society - [name of country]" long before the recent letter, and
>>> certainly they are legal under their national legislation, and it would be
>>> challenging for ISOC.org to claim these organizations cannot use the
>>> name, just because they are chapters. In fact, in some cases I can
>>> remember, the national organizations were not chapters, but they still had
>>> the name. If ISOC has (R) the brand around the world, that may be a
>>> different case, but it hasn't, AFAIK.
>>>
>>> So, I read your two messages as a concern, not as a way to put an end to
>>> decades of relationship. Right?
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Veni
>>> ISOC Bulgaria
>>>
>>> On 12/11/18 10:26, Alan Levin wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Raul,
>>>
>>> Kind thanks for your email.
>>>
>>> I would very much like to discuss this further, I have been discussing
>>> it with our team for over 18 months and certainly been providing all the
>>> feedback to you via Christine. She confirmed that she has discussed this
>>> with you and the whole team so I thought you had all made up your minds.
>>> This email was only to share your decision with my colleagues.
>>>
>>> We want to stay an affiliated Chapter. I have told you this face to face
>>> last year in Cape Town.  We also wish to retain some sovereignty as is
>>> consistent with all our communications.
>>>
>>> I sent the email to the Chapter list only because Christine has
>>> suggested that all the Chapters concur with you and I was hopeful to obtain
>>> some support from other chapters.
>>>
>>> Sincerely
>>>
>>> Alan
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 11, 2018 at 5:12 PM Raul Echeberria <echeberria at isoc.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Alan:
>>>>
>>>> Your characterization of the relationship between Internet Society
>>>> chapters and Internet Society organization is very far from the real
>>>> situation.
>>>> We have had an open discussion within the Chapters community about this
>>>> letter for more than 1 year and most of the inputs, feedbacks and also the
>>>> special requirements based on local laws, have been considered.
>>>>
>>>> I can not make a legal opinion about the use of our brand in South
>>>> Africa since it is not my matter of expertise. And if needed, I hope we
>>>> have a civilized conversation about that specific issue.
>>>>
>>>> You recently asked to discuss this issue with ISOC’s CEO, Andrew
>>>> Sullivan, and I passed this request to him just a few minutes before you
>>>> sent your email. The language you use in your text doesn’t seem very
>>>> compatible with an attitude of dialogue. Let me know please later (on or
>>>> off list, as you prefer)  if you are still interested in having further
>>>> discussions about this matter  or you are just  parting ways,  as your
>>>> email suggests.
>>>>
>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Raúl
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > El 11 dic. 2018, a las 11:52, Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za> escribió:
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear friends and colleagues,
>>>> >
>>>> > It seems that your top-down model is taking over (I say "yours" since
>>>> I am told over 110 of you have signed this agreement).   ISOC-ZA have
>>>> agreed not to relinquish the name Internet Society to the benevolent
>>>> dictator in the USA, i.e. we believe we own this name in our Geography. So
>>>> - as discussed always - we have taken out the part that says "The Internet
>>>> Society hereby grants the Chapter a limited, revocable, non-exclusive
>>>> license to use the name “Internet Society”.  We also reserve the right to
>>>> be called the Internet Society of South Africa as we have in the past, and
>>>> not how ISOC may determine from time to time how we should be named (as per
>>>> the same part of the agreement we are being "forced" to sign).
>>>> >
>>>> > i.e. we established ourselves independently as a Chapter in our
>>>> Geography and in 1998 that allowed us sovereignty and ownership of the name
>>>> Internet Society. Since then we have established ourselves as a local civil
>>>> society organisation that has mostly focused on local policy making
>>>> activities relating to the Internet.
>>>> >
>>>> > Unfortunately now the "mother ship" has told us that we must
>>>> relinquish our name to them and accept that we use it only under their
>>>> license. Since we do not agree they wish to fight us / exclude us / or as
>>>> they state "put us into "rehabilitation".
>>>> >
>>>> > I have been a member of this list for over 15 years, I suppose they
>>>> will boot me soon... We do have affiliation with ISOC Libya and ISOC China
>>>> who are not affiliated with ISOC-global, so please do be in contact if you
>>>> wish to make a bilateral affiliation (if you think you are allowed :P).
>>>> >
>>>> > Cheers, Happy Holidays, Warm regards
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > Alan Levin
>>>> > Chairman ISOC-ZA
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>>>> > From: Christine Saegesser <saegesser at isoc.org>
>>>> > Date: Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 11:54 AM
>>>> > Subject: Re: Urgent: Signature of the updated ISOC Chapter Charter
>>>> Letter
>>>> > To: Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za>
>>>> >
>>>> > Dear Alan,
>>>> >
>>>> > I’d like to get back to you on this after further consultation among
>>>> the team and our legal team.
>>>> >
>>>> > Chapters are very important to the work of the Internet Society to
>>>> keep the Internet open, transparent and for the benefit of all people
>>>> throughout the world.  Community engagement around our main campaigns and
>>>> other important programmes is a key element of the Internet Society’s 2019
>>>> Action Plan and is very close to the heart of our leadership team and
>>>> especially our new President and CEO, Andrew Sullivan.
>>>> >
>>>> > We now have 110 Chapters who signed the letter in its current version
>>>> and we’d like to invite you again to consider signing the letter as it is.
>>>> We will not be able to make these compromises on the points related to the
>>>> use of the Internet Society trademark, logos and independence.
>>>> >
>>>> > As you know, the final version of the updated Chapter Charter letter
>>>> was shared for signature with all Internet Society Chapters at the
>>>> beginning of 2018, following the extensive community consultation process
>>>> undertaken last year to develop and finalise this version of the letter.
>>>> The Chapter Charter letter defines the Internet Society’s relationship with
>>>> its Chapters and vice versa, it sets out our respective responsibilities
>>>> and limits liabilities.
>>>> >
>>>> > From what we know, the constitution of the South Africa Chapter (from
>>>> 2007) says the following with regards to the name of the Chapter: "The name
>>>> of the association is the South African Chapter of the Internet Society and
>>>> the recognised abbreviation thereof shall be ISOC-ZA.“ We thus understand
>>>> that the Chapter was registered under this name with the very specific aim
>>>> of being an Internet Society Chapter.
>>>> >
>>>> > Based on this, we hope you will be able to sign the letter without
>>>> the edits (see attached). The final deadline for all Chapters to have their
>>>> Charter letters signed is 31 December 2018.
>>>> >
>>>> > According to the Internet Society's Chapter processes, as
>>>> acknowledged by the Internet Society Board of Trustees during their last
>>>> meeting, Chapters that have not signed the current version of the Chapter
>>>> Charter letter will have to be put into rejuvenation. See also:
>>>> https://www.internetsociety.org/chapters/processes/
>>>> >
>>>> > We hope we’ll be able to avoid that and look forward to hearing from
>>>> you.
>>>> >
>>>> > Best regards,
>>>> >
>>>> > Christine
>>>> >
>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> > Internet Society (ISOC)
>>>> > Christine Saegesser Baethge
>>>> > Senior Manager Global Chapter Development
>>>> > Website: www.InternetSociety.org
>>>> > ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > > On 4. Oct 2018, at 13:41, Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za> wrote:
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Hi Christine,
>>>> > >
>>>> > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 1:20 PM Christine Saegesser <
>>>> saegesser at isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> > > The conclusion of that discussion is that we’d be happy to make
>>>> compromises on some of the minor edits you made.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Thanks, there are some minor improvements I can make to them too. I
>>>> also got some advice from an American member...
>>>> > >
>>>> > > However, there are several reasons why we cannot agree to the
>>>> deletion of the points related to the use of the Internet Society
>>>> trademark, logos and independence.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > So after some consideration we are willing to relinquish the logo,
>>>> but the name Internet Society is our name in our geography - we have been
>>>> independently trading with it since 1998 - and what we believe you consider
>>>> the "trademark". We will not relinquish our name :)
>>>> > >
>>>> > > How does that sound?
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Alan
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Alan Levin
>>>> > > ----------------------------------
>>>> > > Chairman ISOC-ZA
>>>> > > +27 21 4882820 (ddi)
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> <2018_ISOC_Chapter_Charter_Agreement-EN_for_signature.pdf>_______________________________________________
>>>> > As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>> subscribed
>>>> > to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet
>>>> Society
>>>> > Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Alan Levin
>>> ----------------------------------
>>> Chairman ISOC-ZA
>>> +27 21 4882820 (ddi)
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Venihttp://www.veni.com
>>> pgp:5BA1366E veni at veni.com
>>>
>>> The opinions expressed above are those of the
>>> author, not of any organizations, associated
>>> with or related to him in any given way.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>
>
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