[Chapter-delegates] Fwd: Renewal Internet Society Chapter Charter

Tue Nov 19 01:46:13 PST 2013

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Dear Alejandro,
I do not have in mind any affront, may be the problem is in my
English, sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

My concern is that we see two different actors:

1. - local ISOC, which is an NGO and which acts according to the local
law and its bylaw, without any formal  influence from ISOC HQ.

2. - a group of at least 25 ISOC HQ foreign members, who are ISOC
local  Chapter and this group accepted ISOC HQ minimal performance
standards.

We see here 2 different positions - ISOC NGO  is independent according
to the local law. ISOC Local Chapter is in  absolutely different
position, local ISOC  Chapter is under some kind of  control from ISOC HQ.

In this situation local ISOC NGO (1) put his signature under the
document  instead of ISOC local  Chapter (2).

I think this document, which was signed by another organization (ISOC
NGO) instead of ISOC Local Chapter  has no any power.

Grigori Saghyan
ISOC.AM

On 19.11.2013 2:10, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch wrote:
> Grigori, Veni,
> 
> as this discussion continues, it is quite a surprise to see you
> begin to question, and in some cases probably offend, even fellow
> chapters.
> 
> That quantum leap may make it very hard to hold a rational debate
> that serves ISOC's mission, serves the chapters, and takes us
> forward, as many of us may decide not to join ranks in a
> confrontation. It would be very disagreeable if that happened,
> because it would be chapters silencing chapters by indirect but no
> less effective mechanisms.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Alejandro Pisanty
> 
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dr. Alejandro
> Pisanty Facultad de Química UNAM Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico
> DF Mexico
> 
> 
> 
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> 
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> http://www.isoc.org .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> 
> ________________________________________ Desde:
> chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org
> [chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org] en nombre de Grigori
> Saghyan [gregor at arminco.com] Enviado el: lunes, 18 de noviembre de
> 2013 13:21 Hasta: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org Asunto: Re:
> [Chapter-delegates] Fwd: Renewal Internet Society Chapter
> Charter
> 
> Dear All, I do not think, that the quantity of signatures are
> reflecting the real situation. Looks, that  for some Chapters only
> the fact, that they are formally "ISOC Chapters" is enough
> argument to sign the proposed document. Today Internet Society has
> serious challenges, and it is possible to find an  adequate answer
> to these challenges  is possible, if there is common understanding
> of current problems. And formal description of the status of the
> Chapter is one of the most important points. I do not think, that
> ISOC with 25 Chapters, who have sign proposed document is a real
> power. BTW - who they are? With respect Grigori Saghyan ISOC.AM
> 
> On 18.11.2013 21:50, Veni Markovski wrote:
>> Hi, everyone. In the beginning - *please, read all my comments,
>> as there's important question, concerning ALL chapters at the
>> end. *
> 
>> Isn't this something we already discussed? I am not quite
>> following the list, but I thought that some weeks ago we talked
>> about the fact that ISOC HQ requesting such a document from
>> chapters around the globe, is a mistake. I thought that someone
>> has actually made the case why it is not possible - neither
>> legally, nor from political point of view. The suggestion that if
>> a chapter cannot sign this document, it can become an
>> organizational member is also strange - are org members now
>> non-paying? I thought they pay some sponsorship to ISOC. Hope I
>> misunderstood the concept?
> 
>> Those, who have already signed a wrong document, are not good 
>> enough argument for the rest to sign it, too.
> 
>> I personally see no need to hurry, do you? (Of course, there is 
>> the personal moment - if such a requirement is in the quarterly 
>> goals of some people at ISOC?)
> 
>> I am afraid that the 23 chapters Ted says have agreed to the
>> MPS, might not have checked with lawyers, or might not have
>> understood completely what they are signing, or might have
>> believed that they are signing a document, which has not
>> importance whatsoever. And last, but not least, may be they come
>> from countries, where signing such a document is not important.
>> Note, that we still have not addressed with the ISOC membership
>> database - the fact that on US territory, a US-based legal entity
>> is keeping data for Europeans, at the same time, when ISOC itself
>> is protesting against Prism, ACTA, TPP and other dangerous
>> initiatives.
> 
>> I believe someone also asked on this list *ISOC HQ to respond to 
>> the question: *how can a chapter support the operating
>> principles of ISOC? Is there a Board resolution, asking the staff
>> to request this from the chapters? Now, I guess, we need to ask
>> for some background information - who decided this is a
>> requirement? How would it be enforced? What would happen, if it
>> is not followed? Why would ISOC give its staff to waive any of
>> the requirements? If there is a waiver, would it be more natural
>> for the chapters to decide which ones of the requirements fit
>> into their legal model and statutes, and thus solve the whole
>> problem? Is it not more fair for the chapters to actually
>> "waive", rather than for a staffer, who may not even understand
>> the cross-cultural differences or the legal background.
> 
>> Hope this is helpful.
> 
> 
>> On 11/18/13 12:19, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Ted, Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>> I don't have a problem with the intention of the document. 
>>> However there may be some local obstacles, and the Canada
>>> Chapter has submitted the renewal document to our own legal
>>> review.
>>> 
>>> Specifically: non-profit orgs in Canada must have clearly
>>> stated objectives in their applications for incorporation. The
>>> Canada Chapter may - we likely will - have problems with local 
>>> regulators if we legally obligate to objectives that are both 
>>> foreign (ie. housed in Reston) and not completely known (what
>>> if ISOC HQ objectives and priorities change after we
>>> incorporate?)
>>> 
>>> The current core values of ISOC are hard coded into the
>>> Canadian bylaws and beyond controversy. It is reference to
>>> external, potentially volatile objectives that worries local
>>> regulators.
>>> 
>>> In this light, I would personally prefer that the "paper" link 
>>> between chapters and HQ be in the form of a flexible 
>>> partnership-based Memorandum of Understanding, rather than the 
>>> current doc that more resembles a franchise agreement. An MoU 
>>> approach offers the extra flexibility that chapters may
>>> require, to adapt the ISOC vision to best address local
>>> environments. It requires more mutual trust than a formal
>>> contract...  But really, without a heightened level of mutual
>>> trust, can we really achieve our shared goals as well as we
>>> need to?
>>> 
>>> Evan Leibovitch President Internet Society Canada Chapter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet 
>>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to
>>> this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet
>>> Society Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> 
>> --
> 
>> Best, Veni Markovski http://www.veni.com 
>> https://www.facebook.com/venimarkovski https://twitter.com/veni
> 
>> The opinions expressed above are those of the author, not of any 
>> organizations, associated with or related to him in any given
>> way.
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet 
>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this 
>> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society 
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society 
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> 
> 
> 

- -- 
Grigori Saghyan
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