[Chapter-delegates] Fwd: Renewal Internet Society Chapter Charter

Tue Nov 19 01:25:23 PST 2013

Dear all,

I hope that all the chapters will use this opportunity offered by this 
MPS to get a sound perspective as an association working for a better 
and open Internet, at national level per se, but also as a member of a 
truly friendly community in a clear framework at global level.
As Grigori, Evan and Veni quoted, what is the most and hurrier thing to 
do now to strengthen our community? IMHO, it can be reduced just to sign 
this MPS! For sure, each chapter needs to realize all the implications 
at national level and also vis-à-vis of ISOC HQ and other chapters! And 
the last, not the least, we have time to time distant ourselves from 
"bigger number", as done in "democratic systems", just wining as the 
"larger group". I hope that accurate debate and frank exchanges may be 
useful now and better tomorrow.

All the best

Ousmane
ISOC Niger
.ne

Le 18-11-2013 23:10, Dr. Alejandro Pisanty Baruch a écrit :
> Grigori, Veni,
> 
> as this discussion continues, it is quite a surprise to see you begin
> to question, and in some cases probably offend, even fellow chapters.
> 
> That quantum leap may make it very hard to hold a rational debate that
> serves ISOC's mission, serves the chapters, and takes us forward, as
> many of us may decide not to join ranks in a confrontation. It would
> be very disagreeable if that happened, because it would be chapters
> silencing chapters by indirect but no less effective mechanisms.
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Alejandro Pisanty
> 
> 
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
> Facultad de Química UNAM
> Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
> 
> 
> 
> +52-1-5541444475 FROM ABROAD
> 
> +525541444475 DESDE MÉXICO SMS +525541444475
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> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
> 
> ________________________________________
> Desde: chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org
> [chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org] en nombre de Grigori
> Saghyan [gregor at arminco.com]
> Enviado el: lunes, 18 de noviembre de 2013 13:21
> Hasta: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> Asunto: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Fwd: Renewal Internet Society Chapter   
> Charter
> 
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> 
> Dear All,
> I do not think, that the quantity of signatures are reflecting the
> real situation. Looks, that  for some Chapters only the fact, that
> they are formally "ISOC Chapters" is enough  argument to sign the
> proposed document.
> Today Internet Society has serious challenges, and it is possible to
> find an  adequate answer  to these challenges  is possible, if there
> is common understanding of current problems. And formal description of
> the status of the Chapter is one of the most important points.
> I do not think, that ISOC with 25 Chapters, who have sign proposed
> document is a real power. BTW - who they are?
> With respect
> Grigori Saghyan
> ISOC.AM
> 
> On 18.11.2013 21:50, Veni Markovski wrote:
>> Hi, everyone. In the beginning - *please, read all my comments, as
>> there's important question, concerning ALL chapters at the end. *
>> 
>> Isn't this something we already discussed? I am not quite following
>> the list, but I thought that some weeks ago we talked about the
>> fact that ISOC HQ requesting such a document from chapters around
>> the globe, is a mistake. I thought that someone has actually made
>> the case why it is not possible - neither legally, nor from
>> political point of view. The suggestion that if a chapter cannot
>> sign this document, it can become an organizational member is also
>> strange - are org members now non-paying? I thought they pay some
>> sponsorship to ISOC. Hope I misunderstood the concept?
>> 
>> Those, who have already signed a wrong document, are not good
>> enough argument for the rest to sign it, too.
>> 
>> I personally see no need to hurry, do you? (Of course, there is
>> the personal moment - if such a requirement is in the quarterly
>> goals of some people at ISOC?)
>> 
>> I am afraid that the 23 chapters Ted says have agreed to the MPS,
>> might not have checked with lawyers, or might not have understood
>> completely what they are signing, or might have believed that they
>> are signing a document, which has not importance whatsoever. And
>> last, but not least, may be they come from countries, where signing
>> such a document is not important. Note, that we still have not
>> addressed with the ISOC membership database - the fact that on US
>> territory, a US-based legal entity is keeping data for Europeans,
>> at the same time, when ISOC itself is protesting against Prism,
>> ACTA, TPP and other dangerous initiatives.
>> 
>> I believe someone also asked on this list *ISOC HQ to respond to
>> the question: *how can a chapter support the operating principles
>> of ISOC? Is there a Board resolution, asking the staff to request
>> this from the chapters? Now, I guess, we need to ask for some
>> background information - who decided this is a requirement? How
>> would it be enforced? What would happen, if it is not followed? Why
>> would ISOC give its staff to waive any of the requirements? If
>> there is a waiver, would it be more natural for the chapters to
>> decide which ones of the requirements fit into their legal model
>> and statutes, and thus solve the whole problem? Is it not more fair
>> for the chapters to actually "waive", rather than for a staffer,
>> who may not even understand the cross-cultural differences or the
>> legal background.
>> 
>> Hope this is helpful.
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/18/13 12:19, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Ted, Hello everyone,
>>> 
>>> I don't have a problem with the intention of the document.
>>> However there may be some local obstacles, and the Canada Chapter
>>> has submitted the renewal document to our own legal review.
>>> 
>>> Specifically: non-profit orgs in Canada must have clearly stated
>>> objectives in their applications for incorporation. The Canada
>>> Chapter may - we likely will - have problems with local
>>> regulators if we legally obligate to objectives that are both
>>> foreign (ie. housed in Reston) and not completely known (what if
>>> ISOC HQ objectives and priorities change after we incorporate?)
>>> 
>>> The current core values of ISOC are hard coded into the Canadian
>>> bylaws and beyond controversy. It is reference to external,
>>> potentially volatile objectives that worries local regulators.
>>> 
>>> In this light, I would personally prefer that the "paper" link
>>> between chapters and HQ be in the form of a flexible
>>> partnership-based Memorandum of Understanding, rather than the
>>> current doc that more resembles a franchise agreement. An MoU
>>> approach offers the extra flexibility that chapters may require,
>>> to adapt the ISOC vision to best address local environments. It
>>> requires more mutual trust than a formal contract...  But really,
>>> without a heightened level of mutual trust, can we really achieve
>>> our shared goals as well as we need to?
>>> 
>>> Evan Leibovitch President Internet Society Canada Chapter
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
>>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
>>> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>> 
>> --
>> 
>> Best, Veni Markovski http://www.veni.com
>> https://www.facebook.com/venimarkovski https://twitter.com/veni
>> 
>> The opinions expressed above are those of the author, not of any
>> organizations, associated with or related to him in any given way.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
>> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>> 
> 
> 
> - --
> Grigori Saghyan
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> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
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> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org

-- 

**************************************************
Dr Ousmane MOUSSA TESSA
Département de mathématiques et d'informatique
Université A. Moumouni, Niamey, NIGER
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