[ih] early networking

Sat Apr 20 17:32:24 PDT 2024

No, to which question?

How was it used differently?

> On Apr 20, 2024, at 17:39, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 20, 2024, at 10:02 AM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> Yes, I am aware of that. 
>> 
>> What does that have to do with the solution?
>> 
>> What was the view in, say, 1975 or 76?
>> 
>> Are you also suggesting that the solution was protocol translation?
>> 
>> Or are you suggesting that all of the different networks were data link protocols?
> 
> No, just that the term Gateway was used differently in the early 1980’s than now.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
>> 
>> Take care,
>> John
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 20, 2024, at 11:42, Bob Hinden <bob.hinden at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> John,
>>> 
>>>> On Apr 20, 2024, at 4:31 AM, John Day via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> In the early 70s, people were trying to figure out how to interwork multiple networks of different technologies. What was the solution that was arrived at that led to the current Internet?
>>>> 
>>>> I conjectured yesterday that the fundamental solution must have been in hand by the time Cerf and Kahn published their paper.
>>>> 
>>>> Are you conjecturing that the solution was gateways? and hence protocol translation at the gateways?
>>> 
>>> It’s made more complicated because the terms used have changed.   The devices we used to connect the Arpanet to Satnet, Packet Radio networks, LANs, in the early 80’s were called Gateways.    Today we could call them Routers.  For example:
>>> 
>>> Hinden, R., Haverty, J., Sheltzer, A., “The DARPA Internet: Interconnecting Heterogeneous Computer Networks with Gateways”, Computer, Vol. 12, No. 9, September 1983, pages 38-48.
>>> 
>>> Bob
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Take care,
>>>> John
>>>> 
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2024, at 23:57, Matt Mathis <matt.mathis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Due to a missing reply all or something, some of us never saw the beginning of the thread.    What was your precise question?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Questions of the form "When was X invented" almost always have answers that are successive approximations.  i.e. The ideas were around for a long time, but didn't really work in the early days.   The final answer ends up depending on splitting hairs on whether version N-k is "functionally the same" and version N, but version N-k-1 is not.   I don't find such definitions very useful, but the thread connecting the historical evolution of a concept is fascinating.  e.g. the evolution of gateways connecting networks over thousands of years is interesting.   Drawing the line between between two and calling one the first modern gateway is not.   That line will move as gateways continue to evolve.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> --MM--
>>>>> Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force to apply it to others. 
>>>>> -------------------------------------------
>>>>> Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
>>>>> Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Fri, Apr 19, 2024 at 6:33 PM John Day via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> All week and still don’t have an answer to my question.  That is very unusual for this list. ;-)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> So far there has been a lot of conjecture, not even hearsay, but no facts.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Having a few moments, I went back to look at the May 1974 paper to see if had any clues, after all the title is "A Protocol for Packet Network Intercommunication.” I assume the answer was found prior to that paper. Is that true?
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I found two major topics there: the early part of the paper spends time discussing protocol translation between networks and the rest of course describes the protocol that became TCP.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Is one of these insight to the solution?  Just trying to understand what it was.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>> John
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Apr 14, 2024, at 16:07, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>> wrote:
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I am surprised that there was not a lively discussion of this.  It is an honest question. It is unclear to me what precisely the solution to internetworking was?  I don’t want to suggest anything and affect the answer, but I guess I could.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Take care,
>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 06:24, John Day via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> sorry forgot to hit reply-all
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Begin forwarded message:
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> From: John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] early networking
>>>>>>>>> Date: April 9, 2024 at 06:22:45 EDT
>>>>>>>>> To: Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>>
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Nor was there about virtual circuits and X.25, but it was packet switching.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> We have known this was totally different for 50+ years.  That isn’t the question. There are probably lots of ways to solve this problem. What was the solution adopted?
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> John
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 9, 2024, at 00:06, Sivasubramanian M <6.internet at gmail.com <mailto:6.internet at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> John, 
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> There was hardly anything redudant, 'multi-path', decentralised, end-to-end free, open about telegrams.  OUR "InterNetWorks"  is something totally and fundamentally different from THEIR telephones and telegrams, hence it is unwise to allow THEM to trace the history of Internetworking to the telegram switches bought by the Army, Navy and Airforce !
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 09:19 John Day, <jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net> <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net <mailto:jeanjour at comcast.net>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> I guess this begs the question, what was the solution to internetworking?
>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Apr 8, 2024, at 23:33, Sivasubramanian M via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> This history video narrated by an AI-like voice traces the history of the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Internet to telegraph switching and makes a passing suggestion that US
>>>>>>>>>>>> Army, Navy and Airforce instituted automated telegraph switching euipment
>>>>>>>>>>>> ... this was perhaps the first Internetwork. Clever argument.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 9 Apr, 2024, 03:35 Vint Cerf via Internet-history, <
>>>>>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> interesting pre-Arpanet/Internet history
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFkwWZ6ujy0
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google, LLC
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>>>>> until further notice
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
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>>>>>> 
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> 