From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Sat Aug  1 00:04:18 2026
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2026 07:04:18 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <ee7657d828c098a1b13a8f8e78b5687d@macgui.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <378db8b7-13dd-c4df-9e9c-35c1660fd5e4@iecc.com>
 <ee7657d828c098a1b13a8f8e78b5687d@macgui.com>
Message-ID: <921065959.4294615.1785567858862@mail.yahoo.com>

 A phone story.
Even though I have my wireless cellphone service and? land line (POTS) service from the same company,? i cannot call my wireless voicemail phone number from my landline phone.? I get a fast busy signal (reorder tone, not the slow off hook tone). There is nothing wrong with my landline.? I can use the landline for all other calls.? I spent months discussing this with customer and technical? support for both the wireless service and the landline service in the middle of last year. I? discovered this after the wireless provider required my manufacturer to use their voicemail offering instead of what was on my phone for years.? They kept insisting my landline had no problem. Of course? it still doesn't work.? I got the impression it isn't supposed to work but they don"t want to say that. I am in the Bay Area.
barbara

    On Friday, July 31, 2026 at 06:50:24 AM PDT, David Finnigan via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 On 29 Jul 2026 1:28 pm, John R. Levine via Internet-history wrote:
> 
> The EU has required instant messaging systems to interconnect, and the
> IETF MIMI working group is developing standard ways for IM systems to
> talk to each other.? It's a hard problem, partly because the existing
> systems weren't designed to interoperate, partly because of, sigh,
> spam.? It's a lot easier to keep spam under control on a closed system
> where you can see who all the users are and block or eject misbehaving
> ones.? If a system has to connect to anyone who asks, you're in the
> same situation as mail and you can expect the same problems.

The same thing that happened to the telephone network in the United 
States. Now anyone can connect anything to the phone network and it's a 
huge mess with lack of accountability.
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
-
Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history
  

From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat Aug  1 00:07:24 2026
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat,  1 Aug 2026 07:07:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <114ilaf$u6t$1@gal.iecc.com>
References: <378db8b7-13dd-c4df-9e9c-35c1660fd5e4@iecc.com>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <0dc05a12-6cf2-41b0-8d59-7ff06939b413@dcrocker.net>
 <114ilaf$u6t$1@gal.iecc.com>
Message-ID: <596ad8d6-8ead-47e6-862a-0f0dd4acf5ed@dcrocker.net>

On 7/31/2026 10:17 AM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote:
> My guess is that he's referring to the ease with which VoIP gateways
> can dump junk

It was about junk calls, though not anchored to a specific technical 
component.

So it is about abuse use, not debilitated system issues.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker

dhc at dcrocker.net
bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
+1.408.329.0791

Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
Northern California Coastal Region
Information & Planning Coordinator
American Red Cross
dave.crocker2 at redcross.org



From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat Aug  1 00:10:12 2026
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat,  1 Aug 2026 07:10:12 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
Message-ID: <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>

On 7/29/2026 11:39 AM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote:
> But for many, perhaps most, people "email" now means whatever they now use to communicate with their friends.

Dan,

I don't think so.? First, they would not then also say that email is for 
old folk.? Also, other words get used for their default.

I was intrigued, in Europe, to have someone say they would text me and 
it turned out they meant Whatsapp.? (It was purely an accident that I 
had whatsapp running and got their message.)

As noted earlier on this thread, other folk refer to Direct Messages 
(DM) which means whatever less-public channel is provided by their 
social platform.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker

dhc at dcrocker.net
bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
+1.408.329.0791

Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
Northern California Coastal Region
Information & Planning Coordinator
American Red Cross
dave.crocker2 at redcross.org



From jack at 3kitty.org  Sat Aug  1 11:10:45 2026
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2026 11:10:45 -0700
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <0b26a095-fec4-4873-b443-ec112bac6ae3@3kitty.org>

The terminology used by someone may differ (text, DM, message, email, 
...) but the meaning is the same.? ?They all mean "I'll send you 
something".? ?The "something" is usually a short alphanumeric text, but 
it might also be several pictures or even an audio or video.? ?My 
experience has been that people use different terminology now, but they 
usually mean they'll interact with you using the same system they use to 
communicate with their friends. ?That defines, for each individual, what 
it means to "be on the 'net."

Corporations and people seem mostly to have forgotten Metcalfe's Law - 
paraphrasing, that the value of a network is the square (IIRC) of the 
number of people and services accessible through the network.

In the 1980s, I remember some new hire who told me that he had gotten a 
better offer from another company, but at BBN he would continue to have 
access to email and at the other company he would not.? Access to email 
was valuable to him, likely as a way to keep in contact with his friends 
and contacts from school.

That "value" is another part of Internet Economics which has changed 
over time as the Internet has shattered into a plethora of 
non-interoperable communication mechanisms for humans to interact with 
each other, even if all those mechanisms operate over the same 
underlying datagram transport infrastructure.

When such services were starting to appear, decades ago, it was common 
for them to somehow be interconnected, becoming more useful and valuable 
by following Metcalfe's Law.? That value equation changed over time as 
the Internet evolved.

A new version of Metcalfe's Law might be "The value of a network service 
is proportional to the square of the number of my friends that I can 
interact with using that network."

Personally, I thought the Internet was much more useful when I didn't 
have to check so many different "mailboxes" to "read my mail".

/Jack Haverty

On 8/1/26 00:10, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> On 7/29/2026 11:39 AM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote:
>> But for many, perhaps most, people "email" now means whatever they 
>> now use to communicate with their friends.
>
> Dan,
>
> I don't think so.? First, they would not then also say that email is 
> for old folk.? Also, other words get used for their default.
>
> I was intrigued, in Europe, to have someone say they would text me and 
> it turned out they meant Whatsapp.? (It was purely an accident that I 
> had whatsapp running and got their message.)
>
> As noted earlier on this thread, other folk refer to Direct Messages 
> (DM) which means whatever less-public channel is provided by their 
> social platform.
>
> d/
>

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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat Aug  1 11:36:35 2026
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat,  1 Aug 2026 18:36:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <0b26a095-fec4-4873-b443-ec112bac6ae3@3kitty.org>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
 <0b26a095-fec4-4873-b443-ec112bac6ae3@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <c1cd6621-ef66-4e0d-9408-1d10a2d3892b@dcrocker.net>

On 8/1/2026 11:10 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> The terminology used by someone may differ (text, DM, message, email, 
> ...) but the meaning is the same.? ?They all mean "I'll send you 
> something".? ?The "something" is usually a short alphanumeric text, 
> but it might also be several pictures or even an audio or video.


Sure.? So there are several different conversations to have.

For example...

Are people messaging each other less -- as opposed, for example, to 
interacting via a chat or voice channel?? Independent of actual numbers, 
it is clear messaging has remaining an essential portion of online contact.

Are people using Internet Mail technology & services less? For 
interpersonal interaction, almost certainly yes.? For business-related 
contact, probably uses, overall, but possibly no for specific segments.

And so on...

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker

dhc at dcrocker.net
bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social
mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social
+1.408.329.0791

Volunteer, Silicon Valley Chapter
Northern California Coastal Region
Information & Planning Coordinator
American Red Cross
dave.crocker2 at redcross.org



From johnl at iecc.com  Sat Aug  1 13:44:25 2026
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 1 Aug 2026 16:44:25 -0400
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
References: <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <20260801204426.1DCA01183D4CF@ary.qy>

It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history <dhc at dcrocker.net> said:
>I was intrigued, in Europe, to have someone say they would text me and 
>it turned out they meant Whatsapp.? (It was purely an accident that I 
>had whatsapp running and got their message.)

I'm not surprised.  WhatsApp is ubiquitous most places in the world other
than North America.

The obvious reason is price. SMS often has caps, and is charged per
message outside your own country (or the EU for EU residents), while
WhatsApp is free other than its trivial data usage.

Now that text messages on smartphones are usually iMessage or RCS, and those
can finally talk to each other, I suppose the price distinction goes away,
but since WhatsApp works, why change?  Also, the telco can read your SMS
but WhatsApp uses the Signal protocol so (unless Meta is lying) nobody
else can read your messages.

R's,
John


From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Sat Aug  1 15:35:48 2026
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2026 15:35:48 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <1DBBD57A-4B01-47F5-BD93-DF57C8119A09@icloud.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
 <CE12488A-F38C-4B98-8C1D-7F235B1AB0BE@romkey.com>
 <CAHQj4CfjzVn0eAcqXexfLhKV1_EkaS4HGdjPkhj-vXuQJvkzvA@mail.gmail.com>
 <fe36af19-5d64-47be-a368-df2f6e149450@gmail.com>
 <1DBBD57A-4B01-47F5-BD93-DF57C8119A09@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <1CFF3B70-0E87-41D8-AAA5-9D40F02EF04B@icloud.com>


On Jul 29, 2026, at 11:21?PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I only have time for a short reply, but I noticed that two of the authors cited in [RTFM] from this draft are Cyndi Mills and Greg Ruth, the acct wg chairs.  That draft eventually became RFC 2063.  A Realtime Traffic Flow Measurement wg <https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/rtfm/about/> was formed.  There?s only what looks to be spam in the rtfm IETF mailarchive, but there is some rtfm wg discussion in its ietf-ftp directory <https://www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/ietf-mail-archive/rtfm/>.  From quickly scanning the IP Flow Information Export mail archive <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ipfix/>, It looks like some accounting work continued in that wg.
> 

BTW, in case anyone?s interested, there is some older manet (Mobile AdHoc Networks) wg email in https://www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/ietf-mail-archive/manet/ dating back to November 1995.  Most of what?s available from mailarchive.ietf.org starts in March 2002.

--gregbo




From nigel at channelisles.net  Sat Aug  1 15:44:50 2026
From: nigel at channelisles.net (nigel at channelisles.net)
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2026 23:44:50 +0100
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <20260801204426.1DCA01183D4CF@ary.qy>
References: <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
 <20260801204426.1DCA01183D4CF@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <8a64e2cc-c6db-4a65-8a42-d6ceb75c7d70@channelisles.net>

Almost no-one in here Europe among the general population cares about 
end to end encryption. They just want working communication.

The exception, of course, are users of SIGNAL itself.

They REALLY care.


On 8/1/26 21:44, John Levine via Internet-history wrote:
> It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history <dhc at dcrocker.net> said:
>> I was intrigued, in Europe, to have someone say they would text me and
>> it turned out they meant Whatsapp.? (It was purely an accident that I
>> had whatsapp running and got their message.)
> 
> I'm not surprised.  WhatsApp is ubiquitous most places in the world other
> than North America.
> 
> The obvious reason is price. SMS often has caps, and is charged per
> message outside your own country (or the EU for EU residents), while
> WhatsApp is free other than its trivial data usage.
> 
> Now that text messages on smartphones are usually iMessage or RCS, and those
> can finally talk to each other, I suppose the price distinction goes away,
> but since WhatsApp works, why change?  Also, the telco can read your SMS
> but WhatsApp uses the Signal protocol so (unless Meta is lying) nobody
> else can read your messages.
> 
> R's,
> John



From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Tue Aug  4 15:18:18 2026
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2026 15:18:18 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>

On Jul 28, 2026, at 5:35?PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I think there are some really interesting economic questions, such as:
> 
> - why did advertising, and charging for domain names, become major factors in Internet economics?
> - how has the design of BGP4 affected carrier economics (competition vs collaboration)?
> - why did flat-rate charging become the dominant model for ISPs?
> - what fractions of application layer revenue come from advertising, subscriptions, pay-per-view, etc?
> - why does anyone trust cryptocurrency?
> - how will AI change Internet economics?
> 
> I think email and spam are actually minor, economically speaking.
> 
> Regards/Ng? mihi
>   Brian Carpenter
> 

While looking for something else, I found references to the piara BOF <https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/piara/about/>.  I had forgotten about it.  A few writings may be of interest:

Towards a Cost Model for Routing and Addressing <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-piara-cost-model/>
Financial Incentives for Route Aggregation and Efficient Address Utilization in the Internet: A Framework <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bellovin-piara-framework/>
Financial Incentives for Route Aggregation and Efficient Address Utilization in the Internet <https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/piara/>

--gregbo

From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Aug  4 17:32:05 2026
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2026 12:32:05 +1200
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
 <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>

The piara BOF was at IETF 36 in June 1996 (Montreal), but no minutes were posted. The only concrete traces are at the URLs below.

However, I can tell you that there was considerable angst within the IAB and IESG about the antitrust aspect and a strong view from several IESG members that such discussions had no place in the IETF. I can't be more specific. I have a handful of emails about this from July and August 1996 but I feel that they are still confidential, under the IAB and IESG customs of that time.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bellovin-piara-framework-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-piara-cost-model-00
https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/36/area.and.wg.reports/ops/piara-slides-96jun.ppt

Regards/Ng? mihi
    Brian Carpenter

On 05-Aug-26 10:18, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote:
> On Jul 28, 2026, at 5:35?PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> I think there are some really interesting economic questions, such as:
>>
>> - why did advertising, and charging for domain names, become major factors in Internet economics?
>> - how has the design of BGP4 affected carrier economics (competition vs collaboration)?
>> - why did flat-rate charging become the dominant model for ISPs?
>> - what fractions of application layer revenue come from advertising, subscriptions, pay-per-view, etc?
>> - why does anyone trust cryptocurrency?
>> - how will AI change Internet economics?
>>
>> I think email and spam are actually minor, economically speaking.
>>
>> Regards/Ng? mihi
>>    Brian Carpenter
>>
> 
> While looking for something else, I found references to the piara BOF <https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/piara/about/>.  I had forgotten about it.  A few writings may be of interest:
> 
> Towards a Cost Model for Routing and Addressing <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-piara-cost-model/>
> Financial Incentives for Route Aggregation and Efficient Address Utilization in the Internet: A Framework <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bellovin-piara-framework/>
> Financial Incentives for Route Aggregation and Efficient Address Utilization in the Internet <https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/piara/>
> 
> --gregbo

From sob at sobco.com  Tue Aug  4 17:40:21 2026
From: sob at sobco.com (Scott Bradner)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2026 20:40:21 -0400
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
 <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>
 <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F72A072B-D861-4B0B-9D9F-F2AEC2806427@sobco.com>

the BOF came out of the observation that addresses (IPb4 anyway) were going
to be "sold" and the question was - can addresses be sold while still trying
to not explode the routing table

it was a fun BOF (physical tokens distributed to the attendees (tossed that is) 
with the aim to collect them into collections)

Scott  (AD for that BOF)

> On Aug 4, 2026, at 8:32?PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> The piara BOF was at IETF 36 in June 1996 (Montreal), but no minutes were posted. The only concrete traces are at the URLs below.
> 
> However, I can tell you that there was considerable angst within the IAB and IESG about the antitrust aspect and a strong view from several IESG members that such discussions had no place in the IETF. I can't be more specific. I have a handful of emails about this from July and August 1996 but I feel that they are still confidential, under the IAB and IESG customs of that time.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bellovin-piara-framework-00
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-piara-cost-model-00
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/36/area.and.wg.reports/ops/piara-slides-96jun.ppt
> 
> Regards/Ng? mihi
>   Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 05-Aug-26 10:18, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote:
>> On Jul 28, 2026, at 5:35?PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I think there are some really interesting economic questions, such as:
>>> 
>>> - why did advertising, and charging for domain names, become major factors in Internet economics?
>>> - how has the design of BGP4 affected carrier economics (competition vs collaboration)?
>>> - why did flat-rate charging become the dominant model for ISPs?
>>> - what fractions of application layer revenue come from advertising, subscriptions, pay-per-view, etc?
>>> - why does anyone trust cryptocurrency?
>>> - how will AI change Internet economics?
>>> 
>>> I think email and spam are actually minor, economically speaking.
>>> 
>>> Regards/Ng? mihi
>>>   Brian Carpenter
>>> 
>> While looking for something else, I found references to the piara BOF <https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/piara/about/>.  I had forgotten about it.  A few writings may be of interest:
>> Towards a Cost Model for Routing and Addressing <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-piara-cost-model/>
>> Financial Incentives for Route Aggregation and Efficient Address Utilization in the Internet: A Framework <https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bellovin-piara-framework/>
>> Financial Incentives for Route Aggregation and Efficient Address Utilization in the Internet <https://www.cs.columbia.edu/~smb/papers/piara/>
>> --gregbo
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> -
> Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history



From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Tue Aug  4 23:30:40 2026
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Tue, 4 Aug 2026 23:30:40 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
 <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>
 <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EC06D926-F2AF-4088-BE94-73D60824E8C1@icloud.com>

On Aug 4, 2026, at 5:32?PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> The piara BOF was at IETF 36 in June 1996 (Montreal), but no minutes were posted. The only concrete traces are at the URLs below.
> 
> However, I can tell you that there was considerable angst within the IAB and IESG about the antitrust aspect and a strong view from several IESG members that such discussions had no place in the IETF. I can't be more specific. I have a handful of emails about this from July and August 1996 but I feel that they are still confidential, under the IAB and IESG customs of that time.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-bellovin-piara-framework-00
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-li-piara-cost-model-00
> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/36/area.and.wg.reports/ops/piara-slides-96jun.ppt
> 
> Regards/Ng? mihi
>   Brian Carpenter
> 

The On the legalities of disucssing route charging <https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/cidrd/N51Zpd_9nz-b3V_oq9XqJUIzIuk/> thread from the cidrd mailing list seems to speak to this.

--gregbo



From jack at 3kitty.org  Wed Aug  5 12:20:30 2026
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2026 12:20:30 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <EC06D926-F2AF-4088-BE94-73D60824E8C1@icloud.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
 <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>
 <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>
 <EC06D926-F2AF-4088-BE94-73D60824E8C1@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <9a0b65e0-b700-4910-8407-3305efc7d757@3kitty.org>

I've learned a bit about the Economics history from these discussions.? 
 ?For example, it seems that even the economic structure of agreements 
between ISPs is not at all uniform.? Most of the stories I've heard 
concern interconnections of ISPs in the US and perhaps some parts of 
EU.? Is this representative of other parts of the world?? Has it changed 
over time as ISPs emerge in an area, grow, and compete (or don't)?? Have 
different governments influenced the economics by laws or regulations?? 
 ?When borders are crossed, are there treaties involved?

The history of the IETF is fairly well documented in archives.? But 
there's a long path from IETF discussions or published Standards to 
actual operational experience in the live Internet.? How have ideas, 
concepts, protocols, and such economic mechanisms migrated into the 
operational Internet?? ?When the IETF "puts something on the shelf for 
anyone to use", what has happened over the last 40 years as the Internet 
has turned into the communications infrastructure for the world?

Personally, I agree with Brian's list of interesting questions about the 
Economics.? I also think that some problems we see today, such as email 
spam, might be someday traced back to a flaw in the economic model which 
has evolved for the Internet.

When the Internet was first being built, ARPA (later also NSF) was 
paying for everything.? We didn't have to think about Economics. ?The 
Internet was just an Experiment, which would inform the development of 
the "real" system of OSI.? We worried a lot about efficiency, but never 
about economics.? ?OSI would take care of that.

We were very very wrong in that vision.....

/Jack Haverty

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From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Thu Aug  6 00:29:07 2026
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2026 00:29:07 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of the Economics of the Internet?
In-Reply-To: <F72A072B-D861-4B0B-9D9F-F2AEC2806427@sobco.com>
References: <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <8b8c733c-6bfc-4c4f-9f16-fef7d5e30767@3kitty.org>
 <6b77784c-3eac-4fe7-b145-b5520c2e0897@gmail.com>
 <46D664B0-66E5-49AF-8721-A7F5BE8383C6@icloud.com>
 <ca14016a-dc63-4ac6-97c7-f3c179ad16c6@gmail.com>
 <F72A072B-D861-4B0B-9D9F-F2AEC2806427@sobco.com>
Message-ID: <6158E8F5-23B5-4506-8C3B-F3B31520F1B6@icloud.com>

On Aug 4, 2026, at 5:40?PM, Scott Bradner <sob at sobco.com> wrote:
> 
> the BOF came out of the observation that addresses (IPb4 anyway) were going
> to be "sold" and the question was - can addresses be sold while still trying
> to not explode the routing table
> 
> it was a fun BOF (physical tokens distributed to the attendees (tossed that is) 
> with the aim to collect them into collections)
> 
> Scott  (AD for that BOF)
> 

For more piara discussion, see the following:

piara mailing list archives from 1996-1998 hosted at APNIC <https://web.archive.org/web/20250119205642/http://submit.apnic.net/apnic/mailing-lists/piara/> (via the Internet Archive)
Market-based address allocation NANOG thread from 2003 <https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/test at lists.nanog.org/thread/UL6O3QI6KVJVDR5A672VGFHLKRKRJA6F/#LGHA3B2I5RTZDPVQXXRY3AV2CROH3TBE>

--gregbo

From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Thu Aug  6 14:58:49 2026
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2026 14:58:49 -0700
Subject: [ih] Frank Kuo's Passing
In-Reply-To: <83EAD3AA-FAE0-40B7-8D26-CBCD444225D1@icloud.com>
References: <1992409024.7082184.1780181803285@mail.yahoo.com>
 <83EAD3AA-FAE0-40B7-8D26-CBCD444225D1@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <C273EC92-C495-40FA-BF17-8D6CE5A32760@icloud.com>

On May 30, 2026, at 5:28?PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Forwarded for Barbara
> 
>> From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
>> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2026 at 03:53:26 PM PDT
>> Subject: Frank Kuo's Passing
>> 
>> I am sad to say we have lost another member of our commumity,  Frank Kuo.  He has contributed in many ways to our field, and many of you might know him for ALOHAnet along with Norm Abramson.  He was at DCA when Vint submitted the quarterly report i just sent to the list.  I decided to pick the University of Hawaii's tribute.
>> 
>> https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2026/04/20/in-memoriam-franklin-kuo/
>> 
>> A Hui Hou
>> 
>> barbara
>> 

While looking for something else, I found a report written by Frank Kuo on Networking in the People?s Republic of China <https://www.nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=890202374104:497425855&fromISO=CN>.  The report discusses a visit he and some other telecom and networking professionals made to the PRC during May 1992.

--gregbo

From mark at governanceprimer.com  Thu Aug  6 16:51:04 2026
From: mark at governanceprimer.com (Mark W. Datysgeld)
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2026 20:51:04 -0300
Subject: [ih] Fwd: Frank Kuo's Passing
In-Reply-To: <83EAD3AA-FAE0-40B7-8D26-CBCD444225D1@icloud.com>
References: <1992409024.7082184.1780181803285@mail.yahoo.com>
 <83EAD3AA-FAE0-40B7-8D26-CBCD444225D1@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <41daabfb-7f4d-4d47-baae-942f610042d4@governanceprimer.com>

I'm sorry to hear of his passing.

ICANNWiki did not have an article on him, so I wrote one to help in some 
small way to preserve a record of his work.

Regards,

On 30/05/2026 21:28, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote:
> Forwarded for Barbara
>
>> From: Barbara Denny<b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
>> To: Internet-history<internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, May 30, 2026 at 03:53:26 PM PDT
>> Subject: Frank Kuo's Passing
>>
>> I am sad to say we have lost another member of our commumity,  Frank Kuo.  He has contributed in many ways to our field, and many of you might know him for ALOHAnet along with Norm Abramson.  He was at DCA when Vint submitted the quarterly report i just sent to the list.  I decided to pick the University of Hawaii's tribute.
>>
>> https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2026/04/20/in-memoriam-franklin-kuo/
>>
>>   A Hui Hou
>>
>> barbara
>>
-- 
Mark W. Datysgeld
Director at Governance Primer [governanceprimer.com 
<https://governanceprimer.com>]
Project Lead Developer at ICANNWiki [icannwiki.org <https://icannwiki.org/>]

From jack at 3kitty.org  Fri Aug  7 12:48:35 2026
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2026 12:48:35 -0700
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <8a64e2cc-c6db-4a65-8a42-d6ceb75c7d70@channelisles.net>
References: <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
 <20260801204426.1DCA01183D4CF@ary.qy>
 <8a64e2cc-c6db-4a65-8a42-d6ceb75c7d70@channelisles.net>
Message-ID: <c0dc03a0-b59b-4d7b-ad8b-ddaaf1ed0dda@3kitty.org>

Interesting discussion, but focussing back on history....

In the 1970s, ARPA created a program called CAHCOM - Computer Assisted 
Human COMmunications - to explore how to use computers talking amongst 
themselves over some kind of network to assist humans in their own 
communications among humans.? ?This was one of the major elements of 
Licklider's vision of zillions of interacting computers helping people 
do everything people do.

Over the next decade or so, a lot of different mechanisms, protocols, 
and research created what seem to me to be the precursors of many 
mechanisms for human interaction used in today's Internet.

In the 1970s/80s, the vision was that each such mechanism would be 
captured in some kind of standard protocol and algorithms, and that they 
would somehow be integrated.? For example, a "conversation" might start 
out as a telephone call, migrate to an online discussion, and evolve 
into a real-time interactive videoconference.? ? All of those 
interactions might be saved and accessible to humans brought into the 
conversation later, as well as to History.? ?The Datacomputer, with its 
massive terabit (!!) of online memory, would store it all.

I'd argue that much of today's human interactions are descendants of the 
early research - USENET and NNTP preceded social media.? MBone preceded 
all of today's teleconferencing systems.? Email preceded today's walled 
gardens of messaging, as well as "texting" with SMS, RCS, et al.? ?IRC 
preceded today's various mechanisms for online chatting and texting.

Many of these systems and technologies are still used by some parts of 
the Internet community.? But none of them have established a standard 
for their form of CAHCOM.? Worse yet, few if any of today's copycat 
systems interoperate.? ?We're all forced to use multiple disjoint 
mailboxes, chat rooms, forums, teleconferences, voicemails, and devices 
to communicate with other humans.? ?Sometimes it seems our 
interconnected computers are making it harder to communicate rather than 
easier.

It seems to me that only TCP, or perhaps only IP and UDP, has emerged as 
a standard for communications between computers, with no standards for 
computers to assist communications among humans. ?Earlier communications 
mechanisms, such as postal mail and telephony, evolved into worldwide 
services.? ?Even banking and finance work globally.? But not CAHCOM; at 
least not yet.

Why did that happen?

Perhaps it was just inevitable, as research results migrate into the 
real world of economics and competition?

Perhaps it's simply not done yet, taking longer than we should expect?

Perhaps the researchers simply forgot or neglected to do something (such 
as make the tech simple to deploy and use)?

Perhaps governments didn't do enough to establish laws, treaties, 
regulations, and such mechanisms to guide the evolution?

Perhaps Metcalfe's Law is wrong, and networks are actually more valuable 
when they are walled gardens of captive communities?

Perhaps...?

/Jack Haverty




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From mfidelman at protocoltechnologiesgroup.com  Fri Aug  7 13:02:10 2026
From: mfidelman at protocoltechnologiesgroup.com (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Fri, 7 Aug 2026 20:02:10 +0000
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <c0dc03a0-b59b-4d7b-ad8b-ddaaf1ed0dda@3kitty.org>
References: <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
 <20260801204426.1DCA01183D4CF@ary.qy>
 <8a64e2cc-c6db-4a65-8a42-d6ceb75c7d70@channelisles.net>
 <c0dc03a0-b59b-4d7b-ad8b-ddaaf1ed0dda@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <SA1PR12MB7038379A0ACC1DAEF4B43DB4B1D12@SA1PR12MB7038.namprd12.prod.outlook.com>

List managers seem to be a survivor.  Wikis have emerged as well.

Pretty much every large project, both corporate & open source, seems to be organized around a group of email lists, a file server, a dcvs (usually git), a ticketing system, and a wiki.  Shared calendar, directory, and map layers are pretty common as well.

The IETF.org tools are a good baseline, using open protocols that tie into standard email, calendars, and browsers.  Opensearch & CQL also tie a lot of things together.

I'm also becoming quite enamored of the IPFS ecosystem - or more precisely, libp2p.

Miles

Sent from Samsung Galaxy smartphone.
Get Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________________________________
From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> on behalf of Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Sent: Friday, 07 August 2026 15:48:35
To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)

Interesting discussion, but focussing back on history....

In the 1970s, ARPA created a program called CAHCOM - Computer Assisted
Human COMmunications - to explore how to use computers talking amongst
themselves over some kind of network to assist humans in their own
communications among humans.   This was one of the major elements of
Licklider's vision of zillions of interacting computers helping people
do everything people do.

Over the next decade or so, a lot of different mechanisms, protocols,
and research created what seem to me to be the precursors of many
mechanisms for human interaction used in today's Internet.

In the 1970s/80s, the vision was that each such mechanism would be
captured in some kind of standard protocol and algorithms, and that they
would somehow be integrated.  For example, a "conversation" might start
out as a telephone call, migrate to an online discussion, and evolve
into a real-time interactive videoconference.    All of those
interactions might be saved and accessible to humans brought into the
conversation later, as well as to History.   The Datacomputer, with its
massive terabit (!!) of online memory, would store it all.

I'd argue that much of today's human interactions are descendants of the
early research - USENET and NNTP preceded social media.  MBone preceded
all of today's teleconferencing systems.  Email preceded today's walled
gardens of messaging, as well as "texting" with SMS, RCS, et al.   IRC
preceded today's various mechanisms for online chatting and texting.

Many of these systems and technologies are still used by some parts of
the Internet community.  But none of them have established a standard
for their form of CAHCOM.  Worse yet, few if any of today's copycat
systems interoperate.   We're all forced to use multiple disjoint
mailboxes, chat rooms, forums, teleconferences, voicemails, and devices
to communicate with other humans.   Sometimes it seems our
interconnected computers are making it harder to communicate rather than
easier.

It seems to me that only TCP, or perhaps only IP and UDP, has emerged as
a standard for communications between computers, with no standards for
computers to assist communications among humans.  Earlier communications
mechanisms, such as postal mail and telephony, evolved into worldwide
services.   Even banking and finance work globally.  But not CAHCOM; at
least not yet.

Why did that happen?

Perhaps it was just inevitable, as research results migrate into the
real world of economics and competition?

Perhaps it's simply not done yet, taking longer than we should expect?

Perhaps the researchers simply forgot or neglected to do something (such
as make the tech simple to deploy and use)?

Perhaps governments didn't do enough to establish laws, treaties,
regulations, and such mechanisms to guide the evolution?

Perhaps Metcalfe's Law is wrong, and networks are actually more valuable
when they are walled gardens of captive communities?

Perhaps...?

/Jack Haverty






From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Fri Aug  7 16:54:17 2026
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2026 11:54:17 +1200
Subject: [ih] deterioration of email (was Re: clever usc creation)
In-Reply-To: <c0dc03a0-b59b-4d7b-ad8b-ddaaf1ed0dda@3kitty.org>
References: <20260725223938.GJ21299@miplet.aaaaa.org>
 <CAFr-4ghVv2m3ZRr5BqmBEYRW5miSqxQ=0YewLs39ZpZrY-hA0w@mail.gmail.com>
 <5DE37783-403E-4000-97BA-8A054BA816DE@isoc.org>
 <20260729172316.5C551117AF9C0@ary.qy>
 <a999af31-e351-4b05-9b2e-638d9797990c@3kitty.org>
 <3c196157-2320-4b62-aea4-e3c7aa993800@3kitty.org>
 <88e6fc4b-6ac2-44a3-9626-e076d3a26c15@3kitty.org>
 <90B7EF0E-BE0A-48F3-B292-6387F03F895C@crankycanuck.ca>
 <ddf38ea8-08c5-4cbe-8261-667cea757ed5@iwl.com>
 <29e3509b-b1e3-4e2b-8805-243222c0f8ec@dcrocker.net>
 <20260801204426.1DCA01183D4CF@ary.qy>
 <8a64e2cc-c6db-4a65-8a42-d6ceb75c7d70@channelisles.net>
 <c0dc03a0-b59b-4d7b-ad8b-ddaaf1ed0dda@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <9be0ef8f-af48-4b83-8e3f-ebfb5cfcf5be@gmail.com>

Jack,

> Perhaps it's simply not done yet, taking longer than we should expect?

I think it's starting right now, and it's called agentic AI, which is
exactly about how zillions of networked AI agents will interact to
support user requests and business goals.

And if you think that email led to large-scale trustworthiness,
identity, and garbage problems, you ain't seen nothing yet.

Regards/Ng? mihi
    Brian Carpenter

On 08-Aug-26 07:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> Interesting discussion, but focussing back on history....
> 
> In the 1970s, ARPA created a program called CAHCOM - Computer Assisted
> Human COMmunications - to explore how to use computers talking amongst
> themselves over some kind of network to assist humans in their own
> communications among humans.? ?This was one of the major elements of
> Licklider's vision of zillions of interacting computers helping people
> do everything people do.
> 
> Over the next decade or so, a lot of different mechanisms, protocols,
> and research created what seem to me to be the precursors of many
> mechanisms for human interaction used in today's Internet.
> 
> In the 1970s/80s, the vision was that each such mechanism would be
> captured in some kind of standard protocol and algorithms, and that they
> would somehow be integrated.? For example, a "conversation" might start
> out as a telephone call, migrate to an online discussion, and evolve
> into a real-time interactive videoconference.? ? All of those
> interactions might be saved and accessible to humans brought into the
> conversation later, as well as to History.? ?The Datacomputer, with its
> massive terabit (!!) of online memory, would store it all.
> 
> I'd argue that much of today's human interactions are descendants of the
> early research - USENET and NNTP preceded social media.? MBone preceded
> all of today's teleconferencing systems.? Email preceded today's walled
> gardens of messaging, as well as "texting" with SMS, RCS, et al.? ?IRC
> preceded today's various mechanisms for online chatting and texting.
> 
> Many of these systems and technologies are still used by some parts of
> the Internet community.? But none of them have established a standard
> for their form of CAHCOM.? Worse yet, few if any of today's copycat
> systems interoperate.? ?We're all forced to use multiple disjoint
> mailboxes, chat rooms, forums, teleconferences, voicemails, and devices
> to communicate with other humans.? ?Sometimes it seems our
> interconnected computers are making it harder to communicate rather than
> easier.
> 
> It seems to me that only TCP, or perhaps only IP and UDP, has emerged as
> a standard for communications between computers, with no standards for
> computers to assist communications among humans. ?Earlier communications
> mechanisms, such as postal mail and telephony, evolved into worldwide
> services.? ?Even banking and finance work globally.? But not CAHCOM; at
> least not yet.
> 
> Why did that happen?
> 
> Perhaps it was just inevitable, as research results migrate into the
> real world of economics and competition?
> 
> Perhaps it's simply not done yet, taking longer than we should expect?
> 
> Perhaps the researchers simply forgot or neglected to do something (such
> as make the tech simple to deploy and use)?
> 
> Perhaps governments didn't do enough to establish laws, treaties,
> regulations, and such mechanisms to guide the evolution?
> 
> Perhaps Metcalfe's Law is wrong, and networks are actually more valuable
> when they are walled gardens of captive communities?
> 
> Perhaps...?
> 
> /Jack Haverty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Thu Aug 27 13:11:53 2026
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2026 13:11:53 -0700
Subject: [ih] Fwd: Happy 50th to PRnet, ARPAnet, and Internet!
References: <1157657890.1699260.1787856304385@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BFB266DD-5464-48DB-9884-FB1BDEB2DE31@icloud.com>

Forwarded for Barbara

> From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
> To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2026 at 10:55:12 AM PDT
> Subject: Happy 50th to PRnet, ARPAnet, and Internet!
> 
> Today is the 5Oth anniversary of  the PRnet and ARPAnet demo using TCP/IP!!!
> 
> Don Nielson provided a writeup to the SRI Alumni Newsletter about the event.  He said I could post it here. Unfortunately i had to cut the last bit due to mailing list restrictions: a picture of the plaque at Zotts, some photos and a diagram.  He also sent me a compendium but it has too many photos in the file. 
> 
> barbara
> 
> 
> 
> 50th Anniversary of the First TCP Demonstration
> 
> By Don Nielson
> 
> Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) is the lifeblood of the Internet. It is the protocol, first defined in 1975, that enabled computer networks of dissimilar nature to seam together in ways invisible to its end users. That transparency and dissimilarity would extend over time to virtually all transmission media. It would also cover the world with a new, affordable web that would bring digital capability to everyone. Although bringing forth the modern Internet involved innumerable far-flung talents, there was one place and time where the Internet first saw the light of day?and SRI was involved.
> 
> It was August 27, 1976, and the new DARPA-funded packet radio project, the first mobile digital radio network, was linked through the 7-year-old wired ARPANET to its only hosts speaking TCP, one each in Boston and Los Angeles. The initiating terminal was in the West Bay foothills, and the bridge was the first TCP internetworking gateway located at SRI. Both the ARPANET and the PRNET had lots of contributors that made the connection possible, but SRI was the place of convergence for the PRNET, as it had been earlier for the ARPANET. testing had come to the point a real-life demonstration.
> 
> It was Ron Kunzelman, one of the SRI leaders in PRNET development, who suggested Rossotti?s (now Alpine Inn, also known to locals as Zott?s), a popular watering hole in Portola Valley, west of the Stanford campus. SRI?s mobile bread truck van, containing both a packet radio and a TCP-housing microprocessor, had radio visibility from Rossotti?s to a PRNET repeater node atop the ridge on which also sat the big SRI-Stanford dish. It was one radio relay to the gateway and satisfactory for the two networks to work fully in tandem.
> 
> The task chosen for the test was the delivery to DARPA of the monthly progress report on the PRNET, a very lengthy transmission. The test/demo was successful, and we buttoned up. It was just a slightly more noticeable day in SRI research that was promptly forgotten. Fortunately, and with little anticipation, I took a few pictures.
> 
> Almost exactly two decades later, as the digital world and the Internet blossomed, the inquiries began to appear around its genesis. One of these came to me from the IEEE Spectrum, and I was forced to dig out what I could find. In short, it led to that day at Rossotti?s and to a bigger demo that also included a satellite link and other gateways.
> 
> Somewhere along the way, a small bronze plaque appeared on the wall at Rossotti?s commemorating that event, later to be replaced by a larger one, shown here, placed now on the front of the building by the California Historical Society, according to a Rossotti?s manager at a recent event. The event saw me taking a few visiting relatives to lunch there, where I written story of that day. The aim was also to give the somewhat blustery account on the plaque some grounding. For my effort, I am now the proud owner of a Rossotti?s cap and not much else, except serendipitous memories. 50 years have gone quickly.
> 



From frantisek.borsik at gmail.com  Thu Aug 27 13:27:17 2026
From: frantisek.borsik at gmail.com (Frantisek Borsik)
Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2026 22:27:17 +0200
Subject: [ih] Fwd: Happy 50th to PRnet, ARPAnet, and Internet!
In-Reply-To: <BFB266DD-5464-48DB-9884-FB1BDEB2DE31@icloud.com>
References: <1157657890.1699260.1787856304385@mail.yahoo.com>
 <BFB266DD-5464-48DB-9884-FB1BDEB2DE31@icloud.com>
Message-ID: <CAJUtOOg_2XYPBLxYRxS1fgGy+32J2fEkhPypvppzhHWk74NACw@mail.gmail.com>

My friend wrote also about Minitel, the Forgotten French Internet, recently:

https://komando1.substack.com/p/minitel-the-forgotten-french-internet

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik


*In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025

https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/


https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik at gmail.com


On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 10:12?PM Greg Skinner via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Forwarded for Barbara
>
> > From: Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com>
> > To: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 27, 2026 at 10:55:12 AM PDT
> > Subject: Happy 50th to PRnet, ARPAnet, and Internet!
> >
> > Today is the 5Oth anniversary of  the PRnet and ARPAnet demo using
> TCP/IP!!!
> >
> > Don Nielson provided a writeup to the SRI Alumni Newsletter about the
> event.  He said I could post it here. Unfortunately i had to cut the last
> bit due to mailing list restrictions: a picture of the plaque at Zotts,
> some photos and a diagram.  He also sent me a compendium but it has too
> many photos in the file.
> >
> > barbara
> >
> >
> >
> > 50th Anniversary of the First TCP Demonstration
> >
> > By Don Nielson
> >
> > Transmission Control Protocol (TCP) is the lifeblood of the Internet. It
> is the protocol, first defined in 1975, that enabled computer networks of
> dissimilar nature to seam together in ways invisible to its end users. That
> transparency and dissimilarity would extend over time to virtually all
> transmission media. It would also cover the world with a new, affordable
> web that would bring digital capability to everyone. Although bringing
> forth the modern Internet involved innumerable far-flung talents, there was
> one place and time where the Internet first saw the light of day?and SRI
> was involved.
> >
> > It was August 27, 1976, and the new DARPA-funded packet radio project,
> the first mobile digital radio network, was linked through the 7-year-old
> wired ARPANET to its only hosts speaking TCP, one each in Boston and Los
> Angeles. The initiating terminal was in the West Bay foothills, and the
> bridge was the first TCP internetworking gateway located at SRI. Both the
> ARPANET and the PRNET had lots of contributors that made the connection
> possible, but SRI was the place of convergence for the PRNET, as it had
> been earlier for the ARPANET. testing had come to the point a real-life
> demonstration.
> >
> > It was Ron Kunzelman, one of the SRI leaders in PRNET development, who
> suggested Rossotti?s (now Alpine Inn, also known to locals as Zott?s), a
> popular watering hole in Portola Valley, west of the Stanford campus. SRI?s
> mobile bread truck van, containing both a packet radio and a TCP-housing
> microprocessor, had radio visibility from Rossotti?s to a PRNET repeater
> node atop the ridge on which also sat the big SRI-Stanford dish. It was one
> radio relay to the gateway and satisfactory for the two networks to work
> fully in tandem.
> >
> > The task chosen for the test was the delivery to DARPA of the monthly
> progress report on the PRNET, a very lengthy transmission. The test/demo
> was successful, and we buttoned up. It was just a slightly more noticeable
> day in SRI research that was promptly forgotten. Fortunately, and with
> little anticipation, I took a few pictures.
> >
> > Almost exactly two decades later, as the digital world and the Internet
> blossomed, the inquiries began to appear around its genesis. One of these
> came to me from the IEEE Spectrum, and I was forced to dig out what I could
> find. In short, it led to that day at Rossotti?s and to a bigger demo that
> also included a satellite link and other gateways.
> >
> > Somewhere along the way, a small bronze plaque appeared on the wall at
> Rossotti?s commemorating that event, later to be replaced by a larger one,
> shown here, placed now on the front of the building by the California
> Historical Society, according to a Rossotti?s manager at a recent event.
> The event saw me taking a few visiting relatives to lunch there, where I
> written story of that day. The aim was also to give the somewhat blustery
> account on the plaque some grounding. For my effort, I am now the proud
> owner of a Rossotti?s cap and not much else, except serendipitous memories.
> 50 years have gone quickly.
> >
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
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> Unsubscribe:
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>