From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Oct 1 14:15:54 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2025 14:15:54 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet traffic in the 1980s. --lyndon From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Oct 1 14:21:13 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 21:21:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> On 10/1/2025 2:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP > (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet > traffic in the 1980s. I don't recall any of the details about this for UUCP.? For CSNet, we used X.28/X.29, treading the path as a simple dial-up channel. Was there a protocol layer between UUCP and X.25.? The OSI model called it a 'convergence' layer. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Oct 1 14:55:14 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2025 14:55:14 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> Dave Crocker writes: > On 10/1/2025 2:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via > Internet-history wrote: > > I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP > > (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet > > traffic in the 1980s. > > > I don't recall any of the details about this for UUCP.? For CSNet, we > used X.28/X.29, treading the path as a simple dial-up channel. > > Was there a protocol layer between UUCP and X.25.? The OSI model called > it a 'convergence' layer. Well, yes. The X.28/X.29 PAD interface was implied. But UBC did a native X.25 implementation for 42BSD. In fact, they did a pretty substantial ISO stack. This ran at a number of Canadian universities, and was the foundation for CDNnet -- a Canadian X.400 email network that ran in the 1980s. The X.400 addresses mapped to 822-style addresses as user at host.cdn. Several UUCP sites in Canada could gateway to the X.400 network using the .cdn pseudo-domain. They probably didn't advertise that in the UUCP maps. Hopefully someone from UBC is lurking and can provide more details. I wan't involved in any of this, and my memory is a wee bit fuzzy. --lyndon P.S. When country TLDs became A Thing, there was some debate in Canada whether we should adopt .cdn as our TLD, since it was already in use for the X.400 network. Thankfully, sanity prevailed. From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Oct 1 15:06:41 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 22:06:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> On 10/1/2025 2:55 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) wrote: > Dave Crocker writes: > Well, yes. The X.28/X.29 PAD interface was implied. Oh.? But it is such a big difference. During the formative meeting, around 1980, that produced the CSNet proposal, various august notables in attendance had assumed that the commercial networking services were like the Arpanet. That is, peer-to-peer at the host level.? It was dismaying to discover that it was more like a strictly Telnet world, as client/server. However that set them up nicely to support initial CSNet operational just using dial-up.? (For email.) More interesting would have been a packet interface, as you then cite. > But UBC did a native X.25 implementation for 42BSD. In fact, they > did a pretty substantial ISO stack. As I recall, UBC had the first operational X.400 implementation. (In fact, at Wollongong we used it as the base for a product commercialization effort.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From leo at vegoda.org Wed Oct 1 15:10:26 2025 From: leo at vegoda.org (Leo Vegoda) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 15:10:26 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Sept 2025 at 12:07, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: [...] > How was it used in the early Internet? Was there some static file > passed around with how to route to something and which X.25 address to > connect to? Or was each "link" to other IMPs treated as a point to > point connection with some configured X.25 address? I can't talk about the early days. But I worked on reclaiming 14.0.0.0/8 from X.25 gateway assignments in 2007. The largest single user was a Swedish labour exchange network. From westfw at mac.com Wed Oct 1 15:33:13 2025 From: westfw at mac.com (William Westfield) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 15:33:13 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <5598CB14-FBAF-4919-9D10-F4C7F0724BB5@mac.com> > More interesting [than x.28/29 PAD] would have been a [x.25] packet interface, as you then cite. Sure, but there were any number of services (tymnet, telenet) offering local-dialup PAD connections as a substitute for long-distance modem connections. AFAIR, direct X.25 connections (which would have required synchronous ?leased lines?) were relatively rare. (I mean, ARPANet started to use them as they become more available.) (also, X.25 host interfaces would have been rare and expensive compared to the dialup async that were already there.) BillW From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Oct 1 15:57:58 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 22:57:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <5598CB14-FBAF-4919-9D10-F4C7F0724BB5@mac.com> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> <5598CB14-FBAF-4919-9D10-F4C7F0724BB5@mac.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/2025 3:33 PM, William Westfield via Internet-history wrote: > Sure, but there were any number of services (tymnet, telenet) offering local-dialup PAD connections as a substitute for long-distance modem connections. I'm not saying it wasn't useful.? It was cheaper than the very high long distance dial-up rates charged back then. But it meant no flexibility of peer-to-peer services and that there was a basic difference between user attachments and host attachments. > AFAIR, direct X.25 connections (which would have required synchronous ?leased lines?) were relatively rare. As I recall, they were expensive and maybe more tech/ops hassle. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Oct 1 16:46:02 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 23:46:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> References: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1502383186.2998117.1759362362960@mail.yahoo.com> Since I brought up DVMRP and DARTnet, I thought I should clarify that Deborah Estrin was also one of the DARTnet folks in addition to Steve Deering.? I believe she was working on PIM at that point and did do some PIM experiments on DARTnet. I just remember DVMRP was used more like the default in the testbed.?? BTW,? ISI West was the central repository for the DARTnet kernel but everyone was free to modify the kernel to do their work.? I don't recall ever trying to get SFQ ( Stochastic Fairness Queueing) as part of the ISI DARTnet kernel distribution.? I did make TG (the SRI traffic generator) and dcat (the postprocessing tool) available to people.? I believe all source code was in the final report from SRI. Later on, ISI's Postel Center became the home for TG and dcat (including any improvements made since DARTnet) when I was the Postel Visiting Scholar. barbara On Monday, September 29, 2025 at 02:08:20 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: There might be some information in dtic on this topic.? I think a lot of early experimentation was done on DARTnet (DARPA T1 testbed), including multicast (DVMRP). I know I tried sending video using the Sun videopix card across to BBN on DARTnet to see how well it might work? when the card was released (Charlie Lynn was always great in helping me do stuff) and then a little more testing later with Ron Fredrick? at PARC when he heard what I had done. He was developing his own video capture card. My experiment was probably only mentioned in a monthly report. Following the contracting thread to get relevant reports might be difficult. For example , SRI's work was done under a contract that had little obvious relationship to DARTnet from the title.? Besides SRI, DARTnet folks included people? from ISI east and west,? Xerox PARC, LBL, BBN, USC, MIT and UDel.? Hope I didn't forget anyone. Mike St. Johns and Paul Mockapetris were the project managers if that helps you narrow down the possibilities.? I am not sure if there was an earlier PM as I took over for SRI when Paul McKenney left. Of course, Henning Schulzrinne did some early work too but he was not part of DARTnet. He might still have some more records from that earlier time period. barbara ? ? On Monday, September 29, 2025 at 01:13:46 PM PDT, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote:? One of the aspects of Internet history that is not much discussed is the evolution of the net to carry audio and video. It is sad that Steve Casner died far too soon - he was a major force in so much of the transformation of the net into what it is today, an alternative to broadcast radio and TV. (It's kinda natural that I fell into network audio/video - my grandfather was a fake radio maker.? He made "Pilco", not "Philco" radios that he sold out of the trunk of his car between NY and Boston during the 1930's.? And my father was involved with the development and deployment of color TV in the early 1950s.? And my extended family has always been deep into the performing arts.) Of course there were the early experiments by SRI with the packet radio van driving up and down US 101. But there's not much talk about how we experimented with IP multicast, early implementations of audio/video and shared whiteboard (vic, vat, sd?? Van Jacobson and others did some seriously good work!)? And how Real Audio (was that the correct name?) kinda dominated by doing non-muliticast streaming. Steve Casner, Chia-Chee Kuan, Scott Firestone, and I at Precept Software (under the direction of Judy Estrin) wrestled mightily with the difficulties of IP multicast, poor media clocks in sending and receiving devices, codecs, mpeg streams, imperfect flows of UDP packets, network path resource reservation [RSVP, "integrated services"].? We actually created something pretty good - although my retinas would leap out of eyes and strangle me if I ever were to watch our two test videos - Lion King or Blade Runner - again. Netflix was started very close to my former office in Scotts Valley - and although it was not in a garage, it's space wasn't too many steps better than a garage.? The post office we use in Scotts Valley is rather large for that small city - which is probably because that post office handled many, perhaps all, of those red envelopes. My wife and I did an interview with the surviving members of the first Internet Band, Severe Tire Damage and created a quite poor video about it (my wife and I are live theatre people; we knew little about cameras, lights, and microphones.)? It was interesting how that band and that interview touched matters that have become fairly major issues, such as copyright, permission to transmit, bandwidth consumption, and, of course, the Palo Alto internet party scene (which paled only to the Interop shownet party scene which extended from Tokyo to Santa Cruz to the Youghiogheny River to DC [we rented the Air and Space museum] to Paris.? The role of Single Malt Scotch in the history of the net is a topic that deserves exploration.) Here's a link to a page with the video and commentary about Severe Tire Damage.? Please forgive the poor video and sound quality, we were neophytes at this stuff. https://www.history-of-the-internet.org/videos/std/ For the last 30 years I've been chatting up people in the artistic (mostly theatre) and technical communities on ways we can transform Internet media to break the fourth wall and create the kind of emotional relationship between performance and audience that we can get with live theatre.? I should not have been, but I was, surprised when people began to realize that the biggest customer for that kind of thing would probably be industries that deal in rude content. ? ? ? ? --karl-- ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Wed Oct 1 17:10:16 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 17:10:16 -0700 Subject: [ih] Cisco origins (Was: when did APRANET -TIPs become known as -TACs) In-Reply-To: <1751422478.1730802.1759185731962@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20250929091539.14D2118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7923f932-7118-4a09-a1c0-751d73322706@tamu.edu> <2669b427-7e32-4add-92bb-d7446ab5b7f2@iwl.com> <7107742d-84fd-40a3-acff-d0c836aa056d@tamu.edu> <1751422478.1730802.1759185731962@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2025, at 3:42?PM, Bill Nowicki via Internet-history wrote: > > Hello Noel et al. Yes indeed, I was in the midst of the Stanford v. Sun v. Cisco mix. From the start of the Stanford University Network (SUN, the acronym not the star) project, the justification for Andy Bechtolsheim's hardware was to use off-the-shelf parts for a modular design as much as possible. I drew some of the diagrams for the ARPA proposal in 1979. We could take his CPU, frame buffer, and Ethernet cards to make a workstation, but that was thought to be only for the elite users. For normal people, we would get a CPU board and a couple serial line cards to connect terminals. I wrote a very quick and simple program (stand alone on raw hardware) some wag called an "Ether-TIP" because it would perform a similar function as the TCP TIPs (erstwhile TACs when they used ArpaNet only protocols, maybe). Another function was putting two or more Ethernet cards into a bus with a CPU and calling it a gateway (or "rooter" if you from Canada, eh?). Indeed, both my simple multi-user Telnet program (which I called MUT as apropos) and the original routing code done by Bill Yeager in the medical center used PUP initially. Ironically, the Stanford University Medical Experiments on Artificial Intelligence for Medicine (SUMEX-AIM) funding Bill Yeager's work sounds like the hype cycle exploding right now. Since Yeager added Telnet to his code, it made mine obsolete. His could do PUP as well as IP routing, and at Stanford we used PUP networks to be IP subnets. > However, 1822 IMP interfaces were not so much commodity items. Luckily, Jeff Mogul had been an undergrad at MIT, and Vaugh Pratt (now faculty emeritus) had been teaching at MIT. MIT had a PDP-11 router developed already, and we were tracking Dave Clark's work. So Noel kindly did a custom build for us (called the "Golden" gate which became the IP gateway to campus for other than the AI like KL10 and the TOPS-20 systems which had their own direct host connections. It was in the basement of Margare Jacks Hall, the first time that the actual Computer Science Department, in the school of Humanities and Science in 1979, had equipment in the same building as professors. > My wife worked at one of those AI companies that was going to set the world on fire in 1980. She thought it was funny that her terminal connection said "Welcome to SU-Net" which was the exact same prompt with capitalization and punctuation that Bill Yeager used in his code, but the box was labeled "Cisco Systems". Supposedly Len Bosack re-layed-out a board but the hardware was effectively Andy's, since it had been designed when Len was Director of Computer Facilities for SU CSD. Very soon after the AI startup ran through its money and went out of business. I did hear that fairly quickly Kirk Lougheed and others at Cisco rewrote the code and made it even more of a Swiss army knife, doing all sorts of function on all sorts of network stacks. > Also probably while collecting Stanford salary, Len designed his own first real hardware, which was a MASSBUS adapter to connect KL10 and TOPS-20 machines to Ethernet, as I recall. It worked out for Stanford since the MASSBUS Ethernet was really needed, but a niche market. Then Stanford got a nice discount too. Yeager just recorded an oral history at the computer history museum, and I had lunch with him a couple weeks ago, still the same with fun stories. > Would be happy to give more details if someone cares. > Bill N. Regarding the MASSBUS adapter, references 18-20 on a Cisco product list Wikipedia page point to additional information. [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Cisco_products Greg From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Oct 1 17:12:54 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2025 17:12:54 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <4a61aa964e06d358@orthanc.ca> Dave Crocker writes: > As I recall, UBC had the first operational X.400 implementation. (In > fact, at Wollongong we used it as the base for a product > commercialization effort.) Didn't ISODE beat them to it? I had the ISODE tape around 1987, but I can't remember if there was an X.400 implementation at that time. But I'd be surprised if there wasn't, given how often Steve Kille's name shows up on X.400-related RFCs. I know by 1996 Isode's (now the company) X.400 system was very mature and running at many eites. At Esys, we licensed and sold their X.500 product on a number of UNIX platforms. I was the lucky guy who had to package and support that beast. At one point we (Esys) bought Isode. Then Esys/Isode was bought by ACI (the payments processor). Soon after, ACI couldn't figure out what to do with them and sold the Isode component back to Steve Kille. There's quite a story in that whole ACI fiasco :-) --lyndon From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Oct 1 17:19:11 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 00:19:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aa964e06d358@orthanc.ca> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa964e06d358@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: On 10/1/2025 5:12 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > Didn't ISODE beat them to it? I had the ISODE tape around 1987, > but I can't remember if there was an X.400 implementation at that > time. But I'd be surprised if there wasn't, given how often Steve > Kille's name shows up on X.400-related RFCs. > > I know by 1996 Isode's (now the company) X.400 system was very > mature and running at many eites. At Esys, we licensed and sold > their X.500 product on a number of UNIX platforms. I was the lucky > guy who had to package and support that beast. Drat.? I screwed up.? Wollongong took the ISODE package, not UBC's though I still do believe UBC's was first. I think we did look at the UDC code but decided it would not work for us. I was running the Engineering department, and doing no coding, but one day, after we brought the ISODE package in to start working on, one of the engineers came in and asking me whether I was also working for the ISODE folk. This was quite an odd question, so I asked why they would think that and they said my name was all over their code. ISODE's package was based on the MMDF system I built at the University of Delaware.? It was built for Arpanet, and I did the initial implementation to support SMTP and TCP, but left before putting it into production.? The UK folks did massive enhancement, to add X.400 support.? But apparently they had retained much of the core mechanics that I had written... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Oct 1 17:22:04 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2025 17:22:04 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <5598CB14-FBAF-4919-9D10-F4C7F0724BB5@mac.com> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> <5598CB14-FBAF-4919-9D10-F4C7F0724BB5@mac.com> Message-ID: <4a61aaba0b30f440@orthanc.ca> William Westfield writes: > (also, X.25 host interfaces would have been rare and expensive compared = > to the dialup async that were already there.) And in Canada, you likely couldn't buy one. The telco cabal up here ran the X.25 network (Datapac). This was before the provincially owned telco sell-off happened. So yes, in Canada, you only rented PAD access AFAIK. I did wire a Convergent Technologies MightyFrame to Datapac, for Alberta Disaster Services. I just remember AGT (Alberta Gov't Telephones) installing a dedicated serial circuit, probably 9600 bps. I can't remember now if it was sync or async. Part of the PAD functionality ran under CTIX, but that's all I remember now. All my X.25/28/29 knowledge boiled off decades ago. --lyndon From john at demco.ca Wed Oct 1 18:00:05 2025 From: john at demco.ca (John Demco) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 18:00:05 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: I was at UBC back then, and among other things I managed CDNnet. Its email service was used for a number of purposes we didn?t initially foresee. For example, in addition to the UUCP-related traffic Lyndon mentions, it was used by clients of the Canadian Microelectronics Corporation to assist in chip design, checking, and fabrication. UBC was also a member of CSnet?an international affiliate, if I remember correctly?and a growing volume of email traffic was gatewayed between CDNnet and the wider Internet via CSnet. UBC?s Ean X.400 software (due mainly to Gerald Neufeld, Rick Sample, and Brent Hilpert) found use in a number of European networks and elsewhere, and by 1986 there was an increasing amount of email flowing between these networks and the Internet, via CDNnet and CSnet. (By the way, as Lyndon also mentions, Ean?s default configuration was to present X.400 addresses in user at host.domain style, but it could also represent X.400 addresses more directly, e.g. S=Demco;OU=CS;O=UBC;P=cdn;A=telecom.canada;C=ca.) The growth of costs (especially due to international X.25 charges) was a major motivation in establishing a leased line link between CDNnet/BCNET in Vancouver and NorthWestNet in Seattle. This was suggested to me by Larry Landweber at the 1986 academic network workshop in Dublin hosted by Dennis Jennings, and enabled by several others including Hellmut Golde and Dan Jordt at UW, Steve Wolff at NSF, and Jack Leigh at UBC. The link became operational in 1988, and grew into one of the three north-south links between the CA*net and NSFnet backbones in 1990. John Demco On 2025-10-01 14:55, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > Dave Crocker writes: >> On 10/1/2025 2:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via >> Internet-history wrote: >>> I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP >>> (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet >>> traffic in the 1980s. >> >> I don't recall any of the details about this for UUCP.? For CSNet, we >> used X.28/X.29, treading the path as a simple dial-up channel. >> >> Was there a protocol layer between UUCP and X.25.? The OSI model called >> it a 'convergence' layer. > Well, yes. The X.28/X.29 PAD interface was implied. > > But UBC did a native X.25 implementation for 42BSD. In fact, they > did a pretty substantial ISO stack. This ran at a number of Canadian > universities, and was the foundation for CDNnet -- a Canadian X.400 > email network that ran in the 1980s. The X.400 addresses mapped > to 822-style addresses as user at host.cdn. Several UUCP sites in > Canada could gateway to the X.400 network using the > .cdn pseudo-domain. They probably didn't advertise that in the UUCP > maps. > > Hopefully someone from UBC is lurking and can provide more details. > I wan't involved in any of this, and my memory is a wee bit fuzzy. > > --lyndon > > P.S. When country TLDs became A Thing, there was some debate in > Canada whether we should adopt .cdn as our TLD, since it was already > in use for the X.400 network. Thankfully, sanity prevailed. From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Oct 1 18:03:13 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 01:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <90e2de37-62c7-4bbd-86b5-f7e3b263148b@dcrocker.net> On 10/1/2025 6:00 PM, John Demco via Internet-history wrote: > I was at UBC back then, and among other things I managed CDNnet. Its > email service was used for a number of purposes we didn?t initially > foresee. For example, in addition to the UUCP-related traffic Lyndon > mentions, it was used by clients of the Canadian Microelectronics > Corporation to assist in chip design, checking, and fabrication. cool.? I seem to recall that ISI similarly was shipping chip design via email.? Maybe with you guys? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From john at demco.ca Wed Oct 1 18:15:04 2025 From: john at demco.ca (John Demco) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 18:15:04 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <90e2de37-62c7-4bbd-86b5-f7e3b263148b@dcrocker.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <90e2de37-62c7-4bbd-86b5-f7e3b263148b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <03aa65da-f8c4-4e97-a71c-804b9514cb67@demco.ca> Possibly, although my recollection is that CMC's services were oriented toward Canadian researchers. It wouldn't be surprising though that there may have been international interest, or alternatively that similar services were springing up elsewhere. John On 2025-10-01 18:03, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 10/1/2025 6:00 PM, John Demco via Internet-history wrote: >> I was at UBC back then, and among other things I managed CDNnet. Its >> email service was used for a number of purposes we didn?t initially >> foresee. For example, in addition to the UUCP-related traffic Lyndon >> mentions, it was used by clients of the Canadian Microelectronics >> Corporation to assist in chip design, checking, and fabrication. > > > cool.? I seem to recall that ISI similarly was shipping chip design > via email.? Maybe with you guys? > > d/ > From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Oct 1 18:23:39 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 18:23:39 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> On 10/1/25 18:00, John Demco via Internet-history wrote: > The growth of costs (especially due to international X.25 charges) was > a major motivation in.... When we linked the US and UK gateways over the X.25 public network, cost for international X.25 traffic was also a factor.? ARPA paid all the costs billed from the US connections, and the UK paid the costs for UK connections.?? As with the traditional phone calls, the calling party was billed for the X.25 calls that they initiated. So, ... In the spirit of the management mantra "Management is the Art of Moving Your Expenses into Someone Else's Budget", we took advantage of how the Internet worked.? If an X.25 connection was already open, a gateway would just send datagrams out that connection.? If a connection was idle for a while (minute or so?), the connection was closed to avoid running up the bills.?? That was the design, but everything was configurable of course. Just as an experiment, at some point we configured the US gateway so that it had a very short timeout.? Basically it would open a connection, send the datagram that it had for that route through public X.25, and immediately close the connection.? Often the datagram to be sent when the route had been idle was a SYN for a new TCP connection.? A response would be returned by the destination to complete the 3-way handshake and then pass data for however long it took until the connection was closed. So, the US side would be charged for a quick one-datagram connection, but the charges for long FTP or Telnet connections would mostly be billed to the UK side. We didn't ourselves get any benefit from such a scheme; it just seemed like the right thing to do and was an interesting experiment. Did anybody else play similar games while using the X.25 public network underneath their parts of the Internet? /Jack -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Oct 1 18:45:25 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 01:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 10/1/2025 6:23 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Did anybody else play similar games while using the X.25 public > network underneath their parts of the Internet? For the CSNet phonenet connections, initiation could be from either side, and whenever a connection was established, MMDF would ship waiting mail outbound and then pickup from the other side. Who initiated was set by configuration and therefore mutual agreement.? Verious combinations of mixed initiative were used. This experience fed into the SMTP design discussions, producing the TURN command, to effect roughly the same behavior.? The original design had a basic security flaw.? For CSNet phone access, there was a login for access, so requests to pickup mail had an accountable indentier to validate the request.? SMTP did not come with authentication.? The eventual fix produced the ETRN command. Vint participated in the SMTP discussions.? When I first raised the idea of adding this capability, there was some silence in the room.? Vint was still at DARPA and chimed in: "Submarines!". Thereby making the most concise, compelling elevator pitch I've ever heard. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Oct 1 19:50:34 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 15:50:34 +1300 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <25b35c9c-ccff-4ca5-916d-bc2da05e345a@gmail.com> On 02-Oct-25 14:00, John Demco via Internet-history wrote: > I was at UBC back then, and among other things I managed CDNnet. Its > email service was used for a number of purposes we didn?t initially > foresee. For example, in addition to the UUCP-related traffic Lyndon > mentions, it was used by clients of the Canadian Microelectronics > Corporation to assist in chip design, checking, and fabrication. > > UBC was also a member of CSnet?an international affiliate, if I remember > correctly?and a growing volume of email traffic was gatewayed between > CDNnet and the wider Internet via CSnet. UBC?s Ean X.400 software (due > mainly to Gerald Neufeld, Rick Sample, and Brent Hilpert) found use in a > number of European networks and elsewhere, and by 1986 there was an > increasing amount of email flowing between these networks and the > Internet, via CDNnet and CSnet. > > (By the way, as Lyndon also mentions, Ean?s default configuration was to > present X.400 addresses in user at host.domain style, but it could also > represent X.400 addresses more directly, e.g. > S=Demco;OU=CS;O=UBC;P=cdn;A=telecom.canada;C=ca.) Yep. Brent Hilpert visited my team at CERN in 1985 or 1986, as we had decided to use EAN to bridge the emerging Internet email community with the expected X.400/X.500 community. We also paid Steve Kille to work with us for a couple of months the same year, setting up EAN and his own X.400 package. When the X.400/X.500 community failed to appear, I recall writing scripts to convert EAN mail folders to MBOX format, so that we could easily move residual EAN users to ELM. That was probably in 1988 or 1989. (JANET was bravely trying to use X.400 as an interchange format, so I do have one message in my archive whose entire header is: From Anon Tue Dec 15 8:27:19 1987 Originator: HARRIS at vax1.physics.oxford.ac.uk From: To: BRIAN Reply-To: Message-ID: addresses:1 Subject: [redacted] Status: RO ) Brian > > The growth of costs (especially due to international X.25 charges) was a > major motivation in establishing a leased line link between CDNnet/BCNET > in Vancouver and NorthWestNet in Seattle. This was suggested to me by > Larry Landweber at the 1986 academic network workshop in Dublin hosted > by Dennis Jennings, and enabled by several others including Hellmut > Golde and Dan Jordt at UW, Steve Wolff at NSF, and Jack Leigh at UBC. > The link became operational in 1988, and grew into one of the three > north-south links between the CA*net and NSFnet backbones in 1990. > > John Demco > > On 2025-10-01 14:55, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via > Internet-history wrote: >> Dave Crocker writes: >>> On 10/1/2025 2:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via >>> Internet-history wrote: >>>> I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP >>>> (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet >>>> traffic in the 1980s. >>> >>> I don't recall any of the details about this for UUCP.? For CSNet, we >>> used X.28/X.29, treading the path as a simple dial-up channel. >>> >>> Was there a protocol layer between UUCP and X.25.? The OSI model called >>> it a 'convergence' layer. >> Well, yes. The X.28/X.29 PAD interface was implied. >> >> But UBC did a native X.25 implementation for 42BSD. In fact, they >> did a pretty substantial ISO stack. This ran at a number of Canadian >> universities, and was the foundation for CDNnet -- a Canadian X.400 >> email network that ran in the 1980s. The X.400 addresses mapped >> to 822-style addresses as user at host.cdn. Several UUCP sites in >> Canada could gateway to the X.400 network using the >> .cdn pseudo-domain. They probably didn't advertise that in the UUCP >> maps. >> >> Hopefully someone from UBC is lurking and can provide more details. >> I wan't involved in any of this, and my memory is a wee bit fuzzy. >> >> --lyndon >> >> P.S. When country TLDs became A Thing, there was some debate in >> Canada whether we should adopt .cdn as our TLD, since it was already >> in use for the X.400 network. Thankfully, sanity prevailed. > From johnl at iecc.com Wed Oct 1 20:20:26 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 1 Oct 2025 23:20:26 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history said: >On 10/1/2025 2:15 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via >Internet-history wrote: >> I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP >> (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet >> traffic in the 1980s. > >I don't recall any of the details about this for UUCP. I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running into anyone who used it over X.25. This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: https://www.math.utah.edu/docs/info/uucp_5.html#SEC57 We all used Telebit modems that had microcode that spoofed the normal 'g' dialup protocol and used a faster proprietary scheme between the modems. Later it was possible to run uucp over TCP, skipping uucp's own error correction and flow control, but there wasn't much point. The main applications for uucp were mail and netnews, and if you had a TCP connection you might as well use SMTP and NNTP. The Postfix manual still has uucp setup instructions: https://www.postfix.org/UUCP_README.html R's, John From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Wed Oct 1 23:51:01 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2025 23:51:01 -0700 Subject: [ih] Cisco origins (Was: when did APRANET -TIPs become known as -TACs) In-Reply-To: <434da208-946e-4f9b-824a-d6feeec5aa68@tamu.edu> References: <20250929091539.14D2118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7923f932-7118-4a09-a1c0-751d73322706@tamu.edu> <2669b427-7e32-4add-92bb-d7446ab5b7f2@iwl.com> <7107742d-84fd-40a3-acff-d0c836aa056d@tamu.edu> <1751422478.1730802.1759185731962@mail.yahoo.com> <434da208-946e-4f9b-824a-d6feeec5aa68@tamu.edu> Message-ID: On Sep 29, 2025, at 6:31?PM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote: > > Bill, > This is very useful. > So you've confirmed that the hardware base for workstation and 'gateway' was a set of consistent 68000 / Multibus - based modules. > Also that the multiprotocol (e.g., both PUP and IP) aspect was present in the SUN software. > And that the SUMEX-AIM ARPA funding helped the broader effort. (Without those several episodes of AI hype, where would we all be?) > And that the Golden router was PDP-11-based and provided by the MIT folks. > > You've also sort of confirmed that cisco was not defined in terms of products that we associate with the eventual router giant. Len and Sandy were evidently indeed fond of the PDP-10 family of machines. That the original cisco hardware product was an Ethernet interface for MASSBUS makes me smile. > > I don't dismiss the importance of respecting Intellectual Property etc. But understanding how cisco quickly came up with a good quality set of routers is easier if you squint at things a certain way and think of the SUN plus cisco (plus SUMEX-AIM) efforts as combining "informally". > After all, the transcontinental railroad was a tremendous achievement, despite the horrible robber baron skullduggery. > > Thanks again, > -- Guy Regarding SUMEX-AIM?s involvement in Cisco history, in case this hasn?t been posted here before, Tom Rindfleisch, director of SUMEX-AIM from 1973-1990, gives his perspective. [1] He was in regular correspondence with Les Earnest, as seen in his collection of email messages about the Cisco/Stanford intellectual property issues which has been posted here before, but I?m including it again for easier reference. [2] [1] https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/ [2] https://www.saildart.org/CISCO.MSG[1,LES] Greg From mgrant at grant.org Thu Oct 2 02:50:38 2025 From: mgrant at grant.org (Michael Grant) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 09:50:38 +0000 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> Message-ID: >From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >When we linked the US and UK gateways over the X.25 public network, cost for international X.25 traffic was also a factor. ARPA paid all the costs billed from the US connections, and the UK paid the costs for UK connections. As with the traditional phone calls, the calling party was billed for the X.25 calls that they initiated. There were 2 ways of using X.25. One was "pad" which was essentially like telnet or a terminal dialup. Characters you typed on your keyboard were sent over and the response displayed on your tty. And if I recall, they were line buffered so it was really line-at-a-time with local line editing. This wasn't what I was referring to. The other way is using X.25 was as a network layer and that's what I was referring to as Jack mentioned above. What I was curious about was how such a link was treated with respect to routing at the X.25 level? Was it simply a point-to-point link that whoever set it up configured the underlying X.25 addresses (the one to connect to and the one to expect to see on inbound connections)? Or was it treated as some sort of multi-point-to-multi-point like ethernet but without the possibility to broadcast (and hence no arp). If multipoint, how did you know where the other endpoints were? Was there some "X.25 routing file" passed around to those who were connected to one-another via X.25? When I was working at COS (The Corporation for Open Systems), everyone around me was saying that X.25 was the WAN component of OSI and that eventually everyone would be on X.25 and TP (TP0 iirc) would run on top of that and the world would be a perfect place. I never could understand how that was supposed to work in the real world. OSI did not exactly have a true equivalent of an IP address. CLNP had these long ass addresses but it was never clear (at least not to me) that (like TCP/IP) everything would have a network address that was somehow routable. Oh wait, X.500 directory services would solve that...somehow. Back to my original question above, back in the day, if you were getting on the internet and you had an X.25 line and a bunch of other places did too, how did you join that network? It seems like there had to be some file manually passed around that listed all the X.25 addresses were associated with which subnet was on the other side. X.25 was much more prevalent in Europe. I don't recall encountering anyone in the US who used it. To be clear, I'm not referring to an IP routing protocol like RIP, OSPF or EGP. When I worked at COS, I had access to several X.25 lines. (I also happened to be one of the sysadmins and would have loved to get COS on the internet via one of those earlier rather than later). I had several Suns that were directly connected to X.25 via synchronous serial lines for testing the OSI stack at my disposition. But I don't recall any way of using X.25 for IP. Maybe there was and I just never read those docs. I just don't recall. We did eventually get COS on the internet via a SIP line to Uunet. Prior to that email to COS was via UUCP. Not X.400. Michael Grant From vint at google.com Thu Oct 2 02:54:25 2025 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 05:54:25 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> Message-ID: in pre-NSFNET days, we ran IP over X.25 (Larry Landweber at University of Wisconsin, Madison, had a role in that, as I recall). I don't know whether Larry is on this list. v On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 5:50?AM Michael Grant via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" > > >When we linked the US and UK gateways over the X.25 public network, cost > for international X.25 traffic was also a factor. ARPA paid all the costs > billed from the US connections, and the UK paid the costs for UK > connections. As with the traditional phone calls, the calling party was > billed for the X.25 calls that they initiated. > There were 2 ways of using X.25. One was "pad" which was essentially > like telnet or a terminal dialup. Characters you typed on your keyboard > were sent over and the response displayed on your tty. And if I recall, > they were line buffered so it was really line-at-a-time with local line > editing. This wasn't what I was referring to. > > The other way is using X.25 was as a network layer and that's what I was > referring to as Jack mentioned above. > > What I was curious about was how such a link was treated with respect to > routing at the X.25 level? Was it simply a point-to-point link that > whoever set it up configured the underlying X.25 addresses (the one to > connect to and the one to expect to see on inbound connections)? Or was > it treated as some sort of multi-point-to-multi-point like ethernet but > without the possibility to broadcast (and hence no arp). If multipoint, > how did you know where the other endpoints were? Was there some "X.25 > routing file" passed around to those who were connected to one-another > via X.25? > > When I was working at COS (The Corporation for Open Systems), everyone > around me was saying that X.25 was the WAN component of OSI and that > eventually everyone would be on X.25 and TP (TP0 iirc) would run on top > of that and the world would be a perfect place. I never could > understand how that was supposed to work in the real world. OSI did not > exactly have a true equivalent of an IP address. CLNP had these long > ass addresses but it was never clear (at least not to me) that (like > TCP/IP) everything would have a network address that was somehow > routable. Oh wait, X.500 directory services would solve that...somehow. > > Back to my original question above, back in the day, if you were getting > on the internet and you had an X.25 line and a bunch of other places did > too, how did you join that network? It seems like there had to be some > file manually passed around that listed all the X.25 addresses were > associated with which subnet was on the other side. X.25 was much more > prevalent in Europe. I don't recall encountering anyone in the US who > used it. > > To be clear, I'm not referring to an IP routing protocol like RIP, OSPF > or EGP. > > When I worked at COS, I had access to several X.25 lines. (I also > happened to be one of the sysadmins and would have loved to get COS on > the internet via one of those earlier rather than later). I had several > Suns that were directly connected to X.25 via synchronous serial lines > for testing the OSI stack at my disposition. But I don't recall any way > of using X.25 for IP. Maybe there was and I just never read those docs. > I just don't recall. > > We did eventually get COS on the internet via a SIP line to Uunet. > Prior to that email to COS was via UUCP. Not X.400. > > Michael Grant > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From mgrant at grant.org Thu Oct 2 03:05:18 2025 From: mgrant at grant.org (Michael Grant) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 10:05:18 +0000 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aa964e06d358@orthanc.ca> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <39a9b40a-0bb5-4862-97bc-8b612ca9a9d4@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa964e06d358@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: >From "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history" > Didn't ISODE beat them to it? I had the ISODE tape around 1987, >but I can't remember if there was an X.400 implementation at that >time. But I'd be surprised if there wasn't, given how often Steve >Kille's name shows up on X.400-related RFCs. I was doing conformance testing of both X.400 and X.500 in that time period and I definitely was using ISODE. ISODE also had an FTAM implementation as well iirc. It was Marshal Rose who would have given me the first set of tapes I used back then. Sun sold a different set of OSI products from a completely different lineage, French in origin. Michael Grant From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Oct 2 05:27:44 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 12:27:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <58e44029-f163-4b77-b6bf-da98f5309c43@dcrocker.net> On 10/2/2025 2:54 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > in pre-NSFNET days, we ran IP over X.25 (Larry Landweber at University of > Wisconsin, Madison, had a role in that, as I recall). > I don't know whether Larry is on this list. CSNet originally had four project sites.? U Delaware and Rand did email relaying. U. Wisconsin did a directory service.? Purdue did the driver for IP over X.25. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From galmes at tamu.edu Thu Oct 2 06:02:10 2025 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 09:02:10 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <58e44029-f163-4b77-b6bf-da98f5309c43@dcrocker.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> <58e44029-f163-4b77-b6bf-da98f5309c43@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <90234fe2-1489-41a2-871d-239609b30389@tamu.edu> In 1985-86, Rice University was connected via this X.25 CSnet service. We were paying $4,000 per month in "packet charges" (in addition to other CSnet charges) for a pretty good 9.6 kb/s Internet connection. -- Guy On 10/2/25 8:27 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 10/2/2025 2:54 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> in pre-NSFNET days, we ran IP over X.25 (Larry Landweber at University of >> Wisconsin, Madison, had a role in that, as I recall). >> I don't know whether Larry is on this list. > > > CSNet originally had four project sites.? U Delaware and Rand did email > relaying. U. Wisconsin did a directory service.? Purdue did the driver > for IP over X.25. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/ > internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv! > FP9IUH0rg0KFlCHxrqHddximToeFgSUrIbNefqtfsx0XDTMk- > wmHOW_r44PcqOj0UOp15b9YXiBy9g-nIM5anVblK69Qfg$ > - > Unsubscribe:https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://app.smartsheet.com/b/ > form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b? > The*20list*20to*20be*20unsubscribed*20from=Internet-history__;JSUlJSU!! > KwNVnqRv!FP9IUH0rg0KFlCHxrqHddximToeFgSUrIbNefqtfsx0XDTMk- > wmHOW_r44PcqOj0UOp15b9YXiBy9g-nIM5anVaYY6YHFg$ > From geoff at iconia.com Thu Oct 2 08:45:31 2025 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 08:45:31 -0700 Subject: [ih] How an internet mapping glitch turned a random Kansas farm into a digital hell (Fusion) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: EXCERPT: An hour?s drive from Wichita, Kansas, in a little town called Potwin, there is a 360-acre piece of land with a very big problem. The plot has been owned by the Vogelman family for more than a hundred years, though the current owner, Joyce Taylor n?e Vogelman, 82, now rents it out. The acreage is quiet and remote: a farm, a pasture, an old orchard, two barns, some hog shacks and a two-story house. It?s the kind of place you move to if you want to get away from it all. The nearest neighbor is a mile away, and the closest big town has just 13,000 people. It is real, rural America; in fact, it?s a two-hour drive from the exact geographical center of the United States. But instead of being a place of respite, the people who live on Joyce Taylor?s land find themselves in a technological horror story. For the last decade, Taylor and her renters have been visited by all kinds of mysterious trouble. They?ve been accused of being identity thieves, spammers, scammers and fraudsters. They?ve gotten visited by FBI agents, federal marshals, IRS collectors, ambulances searching for suicidal veterans, and police officers searching for runaway children. They?ve found people scrounging around in their barn. The renters have been doxxed, their names and addresses posted on the internet by vigilantes. Once, someone left a broken toilet in the driveway as a strange, indefinite threat. All in all, the residents of the Taylor property have been treated like criminals for a decade. And until I called them this week, they had no idea why. To understand what happened to the Taylor farm, you have to know a little bit about how digital cartography works in the modern era?in particular, a form of location service known as ?IP mapping.? [...] https://archive.ph/zHha3 -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From julf at Julf.com Thu Oct 2 09:04:51 2025 From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 18:04:51 +0200 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <6952de12-4285-4115-911e-7afe59cc4da0@Julf.com> On 01/10/2025 23:15, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > I think X.25 got more of a workout as a transport layer for UUCP > (f protocol). UUCP over X.25 hauled a lot of email and Usenet > traffic in the 1980s. I was running the Helsinki-Amsterdam (penet-mcvax) EUnet backbone connection on UUCP over X.25 back in the 80s, carrying a lot of email and USENET traffic. I had a real horror story running a Zilog Z8000 system, with a Zilog implementation of System III. Unfortunately they, just like everybody else, noticed the discrepancy between the UNIX TTY termio interface implementation and documentation, but unlike everybody else, they fixed the code, not the documentation. The Zilog TTY driver, in raw mode, would not wait for a certain number of bytes and a certain time before returning, but would return after a certain number of bytes *or* a timeout. If mcvax was slow, the tty driver would occasionally time out -- and return with 0 bytes, (that UUCP of course took as "line dropped"), and that transfer of a news or email batch would have to re-start, all while paying for traffic per data packet (oh, PTT's). Bills got pretty expensive pretty fast. Julf From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Oct 2 09:12:01 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 16:12:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <44433f84-cada-4e5d-91ca-1f6fa2a34e2e@dcrocker.net> On 10/1/2025 8:20 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running > into anyone who used it over X.25. From the other postings, it looks like that mode was used in Canada and Europe, rather than much the US. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From el at lisse.na Thu Oct 2 09:24:52 2025 From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 18:24:52 +0200 Subject: [ih] How an internet mapping glitch turned a random Kansas farm into a digital hell (Fusion) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: While not uninteresting, where is the IH relevance? el -- Sent from my iPhone On Oct 2, 2025 at 17:46 +0200, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history , wrote: > EXCERPT: > > An hour?s drive from Wichita, Kansas, in a little town called Potwin, there > is a 360-acre piece of land with a very big problem. > > The plot has been owned by the Vogelman family for more than a hundred > years, though the current owner, Joyce Taylor n?e Vogelman, 82, now rents > it out. The acreage is quiet and remote: a farm, a pasture, an old orchard, > two barns, some hog shacks and a two-story house. It?s the kind of place > you move to if you want to get away from it all. The nearest neighbor is a > mile away, and the closest big town has just 13,000 people. It is real, > rural America; in fact, it?s a two-hour drive from the exact geographical > center of the United States. > > But instead of being a place of respite, the people who live on Joyce > Taylor?s land find themselves in a technological horror story. > > For the last decade, Taylor and her renters have been visited by all kinds > of mysterious trouble. They?ve been accused of being identity thieves, > spammers, scammers and fraudsters. They?ve gotten visited by FBI agents, > federal marshals, IRS collectors, ambulances searching for suicidal > veterans, and police officers searching for runaway children. They?ve found > people scrounging around in their barn. The renters have been doxxed, their > names and addresses posted on the internet by vigilantes. Once, someone > left a broken toilet in the driveway as a strange, indefinite threat. > > All in all, the residents of the Taylor property have been treated like > criminals for a decade. And until I called them this week, they had no idea > why. > > > To understand what happened to the Taylor farm, you have to know a little > bit about how digital cartography works in the modern era?in particular, a > form of location service known as ?IP mapping.? > > [...] > https://archive.ph/zHha3 > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu Oct 2 10:41:08 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 10:41:08 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> John Levine via Internet-history writes: > I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running > into anyone who used it over X.25. > > This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp > had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via PADs. It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget. And it was certainly used, at least in Canada. Before CA*net was formed, the U of Alberta, UBC, U of Waterloo, and probably U of Toronto, all swapped mail and Usenet over Datapac via UUCP running 'f'. When I set up APSS (Alberta Disaster Services), I set up a UUCP link over Datapac with the UofA running 'f' protocol to relay news amd mail. It was a real thing. --lyndon From johnl at iecc.com Thu Oct 2 10:50:19 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine) Date: 2 Oct 2025 13:50:19 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <10771757-c714-d573-30f5-def6616671ef@iecc.com> On Thu, 2 Oct 2025, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) wrote: >> I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running >> into anyone who used it over X.25. >> >> This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp >> had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: > > Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via > PADs. It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff > flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget. And > it was certainly used, at least in Canada. That makes sense. In the U.S. a great deal of uucp traffic was routed through Bell Labs which could sort of ignore its phone bills, and much of the rest in local clusters that were free or at least untimed phone calls. In Canada, you had to pay the phone bills so X.25 was cheaper. Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu Oct 2 10:53:39 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 10:53:39 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <4a61aec4c97fbb58@orthanc.ca> John Levine via Internet-history writes: > This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp > had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: I have a vague memory that it might have been Doug Evans who wrote the 'x' driver. He did the 'z' driver as well. I would ask him, but we lost track of each other over three decades ago. I remember looking at 'x' and asking myself "why?" It didn't seem to add anything to the 'f' driver, and just seemed gratuitously incompatible. But again, hindsight is 20/20, but my memory is closer to 20/80 :-( --lyndon From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu Oct 2 11:03:00 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 11:03:00 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <10771757-c714-d573-30f5-def6616671ef@iecc.com> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <10771757-c714-d573-30f5-def6616671ef@iecc.com> Message-ID: <4a61aedf9c43ffa2@orthanc.ca> John R. Levine via Internet-history writes: > That makes sense. In the U.S. a great deal of uucp traffic was routed > through Bell Labs which could sort of ignore its phone bills, and much of > the rest in local clusters that were free or at least untimed phone calls. > In Canada, you had to pay the phone bills so X.25 was cheaper. alberta (U of Albeta) had a link with ihnp4 for email. I don't think they swapped news with them. They were a major email hub for western Canada. The obscenely large long distance charges we funded by (I think) Tony Marsland (one of the Comp. Sci. profs) out of his research budget. (It might have been another prof, memory fades ...) utzoo (U of Toronto Zoology, Henry Spencer) also had a big phone bill with ihnp4, IIRC. --lyndon From clemc at ccc.com Thu Oct 2 11:09:45 2025 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 14:09:45 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: below ... On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 1:41?PM Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via > PADs. > IIRC, Keith picked it up from USENET (comp.unix.sources) and added it to one of the V7/V32 License-Based BSDs, 4.3-Tahoe, possibly as untested by CSRG. But after the USL suite, the default UUCP was Taylor's From ian at airs.com Thu Oct 2 11:10:32 2025 From: ian at airs.com (Ian Lance Taylor) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 11:10:32 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aec4c97fbb58@orthanc.ca> (Lyndon Nerenberg via Internet-history's message of "Thu, 02 Oct 2025 10:53:39 -0700") References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aec4c97fbb58@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <86frc1qinb.fsf@pew.airs.com> "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history" writes: > I have a vague memory that it might have been Doug Evans > who wrote the 'x' driver. He did the 'z' driver as well. > I would ask him, but we lost track of each other over > three decades ago. > > I remember looking at 'x' and asking myself "why?" It > didn't seem to add anything to the 'f' driver, and just > seemed gratuitously incompatible. But again, hindsight > is 20/20, but my memory is closer to 20/80 :-( Yes, Doug Evans implemented the 'z' UUCP protocol. It was a rewrite of the zmodem file transfer protocol for use in UUCP. The details can be seen in the long comment at the top of https://github.com/ianlancetaylor/uucp/blob/main/protz.c I don't think Doug Evans wrote the 'x' UUCP protocol. It was introduced in the System V UUCP implementation. I've never seen the source code for it. The 'f' protocol had a pretty bad checksum; maybe the 'x' protocol improved on that? The details of the 'f' protocol can be seen at https://www.airs.com/ian/uucp-doc/uucp_7.html#SEC98 (I have Doug Evans's current e-mail if anybody wants it.) Ian From clemc at ccc.com Thu Oct 2 11:18:44 2025 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 14:18:44 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <10771757-c714-d573-30f5-def6616671ef@iecc.com> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <10771757-c714-d573-30f5-def6616671ef@iecc.com> Message-ID: below On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 1:50?PM John R. Levine via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > That makes sense. In the U.S. a great deal of uucp traffic was routed > through Bell Labs which could sort of ignore its phone bills, and much of > the rest in local clusters that were free or at least untimed phone calls. > Inside AT&T, it was estimated that for every one phone call INHP4 made, it created at least 10 long-distance calls downstream. Inside DEC, decvax's bill was hidden in the way DEC conducted its accounting ? the groups were taxed for the total "building cost" for each site, based on the amount of real estate each group had. So, its phone was swallowed up in site costs, heat, and cooling for MK and just part of doing business with AT&T ? DEC's largest customer at the time. Then, later, as part of the ZK, when the Ultrix group was formed. From cabo at tzi.org Thu Oct 2 11:48:57 2025 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 20:48:57 +0200 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> On Oct 2, 2025, at 11:50, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: > > But I don't recall any way of using X.25 for IP. RFC 877 (obsoleted almost a decade later by RFC 1356). We had X.25 on IBM PCs (connected to Bundespost's Datex-P [1]), connected to our BSD boxes via a serial line with SLIP on it (or just X.28/X.29 on it and UUCP, of course). (The PCs had a rudimentary speaker, and Datex-P was slow enough that you could usefully hear something from making a click for every packet. Originally thought as a debugging aid, we left it on as it became operationally useful. We could hear when Datex-P became degraded as the snow melted and the water crept into the cables?) Gr??e, Carsten [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datex-P From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 12:28:58 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 19:28:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> Message-ID: <176281924.3317624.1759433338664@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for picking up this thread.? I have been poking around on the net to see if I can find more? things that would jog my memory.? I didn't work on the testbed in Germany, where Cisco routers were connected via x.25, for very long so my memory is not the greatest.? I believe the IP address to X.121 address on the router interface was done by a mapping (I think I just got a piece of paper and I don't remember who produced it).? RFC 1236? seems to have the right info in it even though it is dated much later.? (Reminder: when the testbed was installed the Internet didn't use classless addressing yet.) https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1236.html I know around the timeframe of this RFC the military, or at least the army, was more interested in the IETF and trying to find ways to get things into RFCs (including going to least one IETF meeting). I also found this document on the DDN (Defense Data Network) that some people might find interesting. It mentions in a Note that? PSNs were originally called IMPs. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA195849 barbara On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 11:49:25 AM PDT, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: On Oct 2, 2025, at 11:50, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: > > But I don't recall any way of using X.25 for IP. RFC 877 (obsoleted almost a decade later by RFC 1356). We had X.25 on IBM PCs (connected to Bundespost's Datex-P [1]), connected to our BSD boxes via a serial line with SLIP on it (or just X.28/X.29 on it and UUCP, of course). (The PCs had a rudimentary speaker, and Datex-P was slow enough that you could usefully hear something from making a click for every packet. Originally thought as a debugging aid, we left it on as it became operationally useful. We could hear when Datex-P became degraded as the snow melted and the water crept into the cables?) Gr??e, Carsten [1]: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datex-P -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From johnl at iecc.com Thu Oct 2 12:59:13 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 2 Oct 2025 15:59:13 -0400 Subject: [ih] How an internet mapping glitch turned a random Kansas farm into a digital hell (Fusion) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20251002195913.4B4A2DF803F7@ary.qy> It appears that Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history said: >While not uninteresting, where is the IH relevance? Their problem was that one of the large IP address geolocation services had a default value for unknown networks that happened to be their house, and a lot of people were sure that their lost or stolen whatever they'd located by IP lookup was there. I believe the fix was to move the default to the middle of a nearby lake. I expected some enterprising kid would set up a kiosk renting rowboats and snorkels. R's, John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 13:00:14 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 09:00:14 +1300 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> On 03-Oct-25 06:41, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > John Levine via Internet-history writes: > >> I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running >> into anyone who used it over X.25. >> >> This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp >> had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: > > Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via > PADs. It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff > flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget. And > it was certainly used, at least in Canada. Before CA*net was formed, > the U of Alberta, UBC, U of Waterloo, and probably U of Toronto, > all swapped mail and Usenet over Datapac via UUCP running 'f'. When > I set up APSS (Alberta Disaster Services), I set up a UUCP link > over Datapac with the UofA running 'f' protocol to relay news amd > mail. It was a real thing. The irony being that Datapac was merely an X.25 wrapper on an underlying connectionless packet-switched network [1] [2]. As others have said, IP over X.25 was fairly common in Europe, for financial or political reasons. In fact several European efforts at everything-over-X.25 can be found in the two relevant history books [3] [4]. Brian [1] https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/research/groups/CDMTCS/researchreports/download.php?selected-id=884 [2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6592834 [3] http://ictconsulting.ch/reports/european-research-internet-history.pdf [4] https://doi.org/10.1002/9783527629336 From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Oct 2 13:02:53 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 13:02:53 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <176281924.3317624.1759433338664@mail.yahoo.com> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> <176281924.3317624.1759433338664@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54cc6ea8-5cfb-4d9c-80fd-7c23ed4b7ef4@3kitty.org> Hi Barbara, Since computer manufacturers were unlikely to offer 1822 interfaces, IIRC the non-ARPANET bulk of DDN used X.25 as the interface to PSNs (IMPs).? The "DDN X.25 Host Interface Specification" published in 1983 was the equivalent to the old 1822 document.? It's available at https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA137427.pdf There's lots of detail in that spec of how hosts (including gateways) could use DDN.? But of course it doesn't contain any information about how X.25 was actually used in particular hosts as DDN was built out. One of the less well-known ARPANET IMP features was "Logical Addressing", which enabled host computers to be accessible even if they changed their Host/IMP connections.? It was essentially a translation from a logical address space to the physical one of the moment. That feature was also present in DDN, but I don't remember how it was used.? Appendix A of ADA137427 has a lot of details, including Logical Addressing, which may help you remember how the actual testbed in Germany was set up.?? Appendix B details how a synchronous link could be used, which may have been helpful for connecting routers. /Jack On 10/2/25 12:28, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Thanks for picking up this thread.? I have been poking around on the net to see if I can find more? things that would jog my memory.? I didn't work on the testbed in Germany, where Cisco routers were connected via x.25, for very long so my memory is not the greatest.? I believe the IP address to X.121 address on the router interface was done by a mapping (I think I just got a piece of paper and I don't remember who produced it).? RFC 1236? seems to have the right info in it even though it is dated much later.? (Reminder: when the testbed was installed the Internet didn't use classless addressing yet.) > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1236.html > I know around the timeframe of this RFC the military, or at least the army, was more interested in the IETF and trying to find ways to get things into RFCs (including going to least one IETF meeting). > > I also found this document on the DDN (Defense Data Network) that some people might find interesting. It mentions in a Note that? PSNs were originally called IMPs. > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA195849 > > barbara > > On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 11:49:25 AM PDT, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: > > On Oct 2, 2025, at 11:50, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >> But I don't recall any way of using X.25 for IP. > RFC 877 (obsoleted almost a decade later by RFC 1356). > > We had X.25 on IBM PCs (connected to Bundespost's Datex-P [1]), connected to our BSD boxes via a serial line with SLIP on it (or just X.28/X.29 on it and UUCP, of course). > (The PCs had a rudimentary speaker, and Datex-P was slow enough that you could usefully hear something from making a click for every packet. > Originally thought as a debugging aid, we left it on as it became operationally useful. > We could hear when Datex-P became degraded as the snow melted and the water crept into the cables?) > > Gr??e, Carsten > > [1]:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datex-P > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 13:34:46 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 20:34:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: <1502383186.2998117.1759362362960@mail.yahoo.com> References: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> <1502383186.2998117.1759362362960@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2018550604.25565.1759437286427@mail.yahoo.com> For the lawyers out there,? DARTnet was impacted by System V? (AT&T) licensing.? The DARTnet kernel was a derivative of BSD and of course people needed/wanted the source.? I think that may be one reason the DARTnet kernel was handled by ISI. Each site needed the license and then prove to whomever you had the right paperwork.? Since I joined DARTnet? later, I missed almost all of that but I remember being told it took a long time for SRI to get it worked out. barbara On Wednesday, October 1, 2025 at 04:46:29 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: Since I brought up DVMRP and DARTnet, I thought I should clarify that Deborah Estrin was also one of the DARTnet folks in addition to Steve Deering.? I believe she was working on PIM at that point and did do some PIM experiments on DARTnet. I just remember DVMRP was used more like the default in the testbed.?? BTW,? ISI West was the central repository for the DARTnet kernel but everyone was free to modify the kernel to do their work.? I don't recall ever trying to get SFQ ( Stochastic Fairness Queueing) as part of the ISI DARTnet kernel distribution.? I did make TG (the SRI traffic generator) and dcat (the postprocessing tool) available to people.? I believe all source code was in the final report from SRI. Later on, ISI's Postel Center became the home for TG and dcat (including any improvements made since DARTnet) when I was the Postel Visiting Scholar. barbara ? ? On Monday, September 29, 2025 at 02:08:20 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:? ? There might be some information in dtic on this topic.? I think a lot of early experimentation was done on DARTnet (DARPA T1 testbed), including multicast (DVMRP). I know I tried sending video using the Sun videopix card across to BBN on DARTnet to see how well it might work? when the card was released (Charlie Lynn was always great in helping me do stuff) and then a little more testing later with Ron Fredrick? at PARC when he heard what I had done. He was developing his own video capture card. My experiment was probably only mentioned in a monthly report. Following the contracting thread to get relevant reports might be difficult. For example , SRI's work was done under a contract that had little obvious relationship to DARTnet from the title.? Besides SRI, DARTnet folks included people? from ISI east and west,? Xerox PARC, LBL, BBN, USC, MIT and UDel.? Hope I didn't forget anyone. Mike St. Johns and Paul Mockapetris were the project managers if that helps you narrow down the possibilities.? I am not sure if there was an earlier PM as I took over for SRI when Paul McKenney left. Of course, Henning Schulzrinne did some early work too but he was not part of DARTnet. He might still have some more records from that earlier time period. barbara ? ? On Monday, September 29, 2025 at 01:13:46 PM PDT, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote:? One of the aspects of Internet history that is not much discussed is the evolution of the net to carry audio and video. It is sad that Steve Casner died far too soon - he was a major force in so much of the transformation of the net into what it is today, an alternative to broadcast radio and TV. (It's kinda natural that I fell into network audio/video - my grandfather was a fake radio maker.? He made "Pilco", not "Philco" radios that he sold out of the trunk of his car between NY and Boston during the 1930's.? And my father was involved with the development and deployment of color TV in the early 1950s.? And my extended family has always been deep into the performing arts.) Of course there were the early experiments by SRI with the packet radio van driving up and down US 101. But there's not much talk about how we experimented with IP multicast, early implementations of audio/video and shared whiteboard (vic, vat, sd?? Van Jacobson and others did some seriously good work!)? And how Real Audio (was that the correct name?) kinda dominated by doing non-muliticast streaming. Steve Casner, Chia-Chee Kuan, Scott Firestone, and I at Precept Software (under the direction of Judy Estrin) wrestled mightily with the difficulties of IP multicast, poor media clocks in sending and receiving devices, codecs, mpeg streams, imperfect flows of UDP packets, network path resource reservation [RSVP, "integrated services"].? We actually created something pretty good - although my retinas would leap out of eyes and strangle me if I ever were to watch our two test videos - Lion King or Blade Runner - again. Netflix was started very close to my former office in Scotts Valley - and although it was not in a garage, it's space wasn't too many steps better than a garage.? The post office we use in Scotts Valley is rather large for that small city - which is probably because that post office handled many, perhaps all, of those red envelopes. My wife and I did an interview with the surviving members of the first Internet Band, Severe Tire Damage and created a quite poor video about it (my wife and I are live theatre people; we knew little about cameras, lights, and microphones.)? It was interesting how that band and that interview touched matters that have become fairly major issues, such as copyright, permission to transmit, bandwidth consumption, and, of course, the Palo Alto internet party scene (which paled only to the Interop shownet party scene which extended from Tokyo to Santa Cruz to the Youghiogheny River to DC [we rented the Air and Space museum] to Paris.? The role of Single Malt Scotch in the history of the net is a topic that deserves exploration.) Here's a link to a page with the video and commentary about Severe Tire Damage.? Please forgive the poor video and sound quality, we were neophytes at this stuff. https://www.history-of-the-internet.org/videos/std/ For the last 30 years I've been chatting up people in the artistic (mostly theatre) and technical communities on ways we can transform Internet media to break the fourth wall and create the kind of emotional relationship between performance and audience that we can get with live theatre.? I should not have been, but I was, surprised when people began to realize that the biggest customer for that kind of thing would probably be industries that deal in rude content. ? ? ? ? --karl-- ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Oct 2 13:39:30 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 13:39:30 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> Message-ID: It's also important to remember that X.25 was only an "interface specification" for how a computer could interact with a network. Inside the network, mechanisms were defined by the PSN designer. As far as I remember, an X.25 network always consisted of switches from the same manufacturer or possibly partners.?? X.75 was used to connect two networks together. For example, the US DDN used X.25 as the specification for how a host computer would use the DDN.?? But inside the DDN switches (aka IMPs) were the same mechanisms (routing, flow control, congestion control, management, etc.) for creating reliable virtual circuits that had been developed and refined over a decade of use in the ARPANET.? Only the host/switch interface had changed. In the 1980s, here were multiple distinct X.25 networks as components of DDN, as well as similar clones in other parts of the US government.? I don't recall that they were ever interconnected by X.75 or even by IP gateways, but it may have happened somewhere. There were some "mail gateways" that enabled email to move between some networks, using trusted agents interfaced to multiple networks.? An example is documented in the RFCs - see https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc1133 One memorable example I recall was a "mail gateway" in Europe between the DDN and the European public X.25 system - in Germany IIRC.?? Because of security concerns, that mail gateway was implemented organically -- a human operator at a desk with two terminals would read a message on one and, if it was acceptable, re-type that message on the other terminal and send it to its destination. This connectivity was useful for mundane needs like getting groceries, toilet paper, and other consumables ordered and delivered to military installations.?? We used to joke that an alternative implementation could be a gateway between the DDN and some Avian Network but no ISP offered such service, and it was easier to find a soldier to be the gateway. /Jack On 10/2/25 13:00, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > On 03-Oct-25 06:41, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via > Internet-history wrote: >> John Levine via Internet-history writes: >> >>> I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running >>> into anyone who used it over X.25. >>> >>> This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp >>> had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: >> >> Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via >> PADs.? It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff >> flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget.? And >> it was certainly used, at least in Canada.? Before CA*net was formed, >> the U of Alberta, UBC, U of Waterloo, and probably U of Toronto, >> all swapped mail and Usenet over Datapac via UUCP running 'f'. When >> I set up APSS (Alberta Disaster Services), I set up a UUCP link >> over Datapac with the UofA running 'f' protocol to relay news amd >> mail.? It was a real thing. > > The irony being that Datapac was merely an X.25 wrapper on an underlying > connectionless packet-switched network [1] [2]. > > As others have said, IP over X.25 was fairly common in Europe, for > financial > or political reasons. In fact several European efforts at > everything-over-X.25 > can be found in the two relevant history books [3] [4]. > > ?? Brian > > [1] > https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/research/groups/CDMTCS/researchreports/download.php?selected-id=884 > [2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6592834 > [3] > http://ictconsulting.ch/reports/european-research-internet-history.pdf > [4] https://doi.org/10.1002/9783527629336 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Oct 2 13:44:47 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 20:44:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <11d0620b-eba3-43b7-80e6-8a2a94ebd93b@dcrocker.net> > It's also important to remember that X.25 was only an "interface > specification" for how a computer could interact with a network. This distinction between i/f spec vs. internal (e.g., packet) spec does not get much attention. I've previously mentioned a fairly obscure example, which was Netbios.? IBM only published the API, but kept the internal private.? At least 3 different companies developed their own means of doing Netbios over TCP/IP.? As the Internet moved towards commercialization, the process of getting those companies to agree to a single specification was not pretty. (RFC 1001/1002). d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu Oct 2 16:09:11 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 16:09:11 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <4a61b1349dc929b4@orthanc.ca> Clem Cole writes: > IIRC, Keith picked it up from USENET (comp.unix.sources) and added it to > one of the V7/V32 License-Based BSDs, 4.3-Tahoe, possibly as untested by > CSRG. But after the USL suite, the default UUCP was Taylor's I know alberta was running it on 4.2BSD, and possibly as early as 32V. But they were also source licensed, so they could have applied the patches themselves. I will go digging through the c.s.u. archives and see if I can find the 'f' posting. Thanks for the pointer! --lyndon From lyndon at orthanc.ca Thu Oct 2 16:58:22 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Thu, 02 Oct 2025 16:58:22 -0700 Subject: [ih] The Backbone Cabal Message-ID: <4a61b189cd252449@orthanc.ca> All this UUCP chatter reminded me of the backbone cabal. The source of many early Usenet conspiracy theories :-) Is there an archive of the cabal mailing list anywhere? I know it was a private list, but there is a *lot* of history in there about the development of the UUCP mail networks, and Usenet. It's well over 30 years since that list was active (I would guess). Certainly the statute of limitations has long expired for any transgressions contained therein. Or even if it's too early to open up, a copy should be permanently archived somewhere, if a copy still exists. --lyndon From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Oct 2 17:37:39 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 00:37:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <54cc6ea8-5cfb-4d9c-80fd-7c23ed4b7ef4@3kitty.org> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> <176281924.3317624.1759433338664@mail.yahoo.com> <54cc6ea8-5cfb-4d9c-80fd-7c23ed4b7ef4@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <2050243560.3442158.1759451859106@mail.yahoo.com> Packet radio also used logical addressing (see III.C in the referenced paper mentioned below).? It also had something called generic logical addresses which is sorta like anycast.? I don't recall seeing generic logical addresses in use.? I also think from the pr address you could also tell what the attached device was (for example, a station). J. Jubin and J. D. Tornow, "The DARPA packet radio network protocols," in?Proceedings of the IEEE, vol. 75, no. 1, pp. 21-32, Jan. 1987, doi: 10.1109/PROC.1987.13702. Google search brings up a copy of this paper at Cornell but I am not sure it is reachable anymore. barbara On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 01:03:06 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Hi Barbara, Since computer manufacturers were unlikely to offer 1822 interfaces, IIRC the non-ARPANET bulk of DDN used X.25 as the interface to PSNs (IMPs).? The "DDN X.25 Host Interface Specification" published in 1983 was the equivalent to the old 1822 document.? It's available at https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA137427.pdf There's lots of detail in that spec of how hosts (including gateways) could use DDN.? But of course it doesn't contain any information about how X.25 was actually used in particular hosts as DDN was built out. One of the less well-known ARPANET IMP features was "Logical Addressing", which enabled host computers to be accessible even if they changed their Host/IMP connections.? It was essentially a translation from a logical address space to the physical one of the moment. That feature was also present in DDN, but I don't remember how it was used.? Appendix A of ADA137427 has a lot of details, including Logical Addressing, which may help you remember how the actual testbed in Germany was set up.?? Appendix B details how a synchronous link could be used, which may have been helpful for connecting routers. /Jack On 10/2/25 12:28, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >? Thanks for picking up this thread.? I have been poking around on the net to see if I can find more? things that would jog my memory.? I didn't work on the testbed in Germany, where Cisco routers were connected via x.25, for very long so my memory is not the greatest.? I believe the IP address to X.121 address on the router interface was done by a mapping (I think I just got a piece of paper and I don't remember who produced it).? RFC 1236? seems to have the right info in it even though it is dated much later.? (Reminder: when the testbed was installed the Internet didn't use classless addressing yet.) > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1236.html > I know around the timeframe of this RFC the military, or at least the army, was more interested in the IETF and trying to find ways to get things into RFCs (including going to least one IETF meeting). > > I also found this document on the DDN (Defense Data Network) that some people might find interesting. It mentions in a Note that? PSNs were originally called IMPs. > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA195849 > > barbara > >? ? ? On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 11:49:25 AM PDT, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: >? >? On Oct 2, 2025, at 11:50, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >> But I don't recall any way of using X.25 for IP. > RFC 877 (obsoleted almost a decade later by RFC 1356). > > We had X.25 on IBM PCs (connected to Bundespost's Datex-P [1]), connected to our BSD boxes via a serial line with SLIP on it (or just X.28/X.29 on it and UUCP, of course). > (The PCs had a rudimentary speaker, and Datex-P was slow enough that you could usefully hear something from making a click for every packet. > Originally thought as a debugging aid, we left it on as it became operationally useful. > We could hear when Datex-P became degraded as the snow melted and the water crept into the cables?) > > Gr??e, Carsten > > [1]:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datex-P > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Oct 2 18:10:47 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 18:10:47 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <2050243560.3442158.1759451859106@mail.yahoo.com> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> <176281924.3317624.1759433338664@mail.yahoo.com> <54cc6ea8-5cfb-4d9c-80fd-7c23ed4b7ef4@3kitty.org> <2050243560.3442158.1759451859106@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: FYI, the Jubin/Tornow paper is downloadable at: https://web.archive.org/web/20240416034003/https://morse.colorado.edu/~timxb/5520/ho/JubinDARPA.pdf On 10/2/25 17:37, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Packet radio also used logical addressing (see III.C in the referenced paper mentioned below).? It also had something called generic logical addresses which is sorta like anycast.? I don't recall seeing generic logical addresses in use.? I also think from the pr address you could also tell what the attached device was (for example, a station). > > J. Jubin and J. D. Tornow, "The DARPA packet radio network protocols," in?Proceedings of the IEEE, vol. 75, no. 1, pp. 21-32, Jan. 1987, doi: 10.1109/PROC.1987.13702. > > Google search brings up a copy of this paper at Cornell but I am not sure it is reachable anymore. > barbara > > On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 01:03:06 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Hi Barbara, > > Since computer manufacturers were unlikely to offer 1822 interfaces, > IIRC the non-ARPANET bulk of DDN used X.25 as the interface to PSNs > (IMPs).? The "DDN X.25 Host Interface Specification" published in 1983 > was the equivalent to the old 1822 document.? It's available at > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA137427.pdf > > There's lots of detail in that spec of how hosts (including gateways) > could use DDN.? But of course it doesn't contain any information about > how X.25 was actually used in particular hosts as DDN was built out. > > One of the less well-known ARPANET IMP features was "Logical > Addressing", which enabled host computers to be accessible even if they > changed their Host/IMP connections.? It was essentially a translation > from a logical address space to the physical one of the moment. > > That feature was also present in DDN, but I don't remember how it was > used.? Appendix A of ADA137427 has a lot of details, including Logical > Addressing, which may help you remember how the actual testbed in > Germany was set up.?? Appendix B details how a synchronous link could be > used, which may have been helpful for connecting routers. > > /Jack > > On 10/2/25 12:28, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> ? Thanks for picking up this thread.? I have been poking around on the net to see if I can find more? things that would jog my memory.? I didn't work on the testbed in Germany, where Cisco routers were connected via x.25, for very long so my memory is not the greatest.? I believe the IP address to X.121 address on the router interface was done by a mapping (I think I just got a piece of paper and I don't remember who produced it).? RFC 1236? seems to have the right info in it even though it is dated much later.? (Reminder: when the testbed was installed the Internet didn't use classless addressing yet.) >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1236.html >> I know around the timeframe of this RFC the military, or at least the army, was more interested in the IETF and trying to find ways to get things into RFCs (including going to least one IETF meeting). >> >> I also found this document on the DDN (Defense Data Network) that some people might find interesting. It mentions in a Note that? PSNs were originally called IMPs. >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA195849 >> >> barbara >> >> ? ? ? On Thursday, October 2, 2025 at 11:49:25 AM PDT, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ? On Oct 2, 2025, at 11:50, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >>> But I don't recall any way of using X.25 for IP. >> RFC 877 (obsoleted almost a decade later by RFC 1356). >> >> We had X.25 on IBM PCs (connected to Bundespost's Datex-P [1]), connected to our BSD boxes via a serial line with SLIP on it (or just X.28/X.29 on it and UUCP, of course). >> (The PCs had a rudimentary speaker, and Datex-P was slow enough that you could usefully hear something from making a click for every packet. >> Originally thought as a debugging aid, we left it on as it became operationally useful. >> We could hear when Datex-P became degraded as the snow melted and the water crept into the cables?) >> >> Gr??e, Carsten >> >> [1]:https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Datex-P >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Thu Oct 2 19:32:53 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 19:32:53 -0700 Subject: [ih] The Backbone Cabal In-Reply-To: <4a61b189cd252449@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61b189cd252449@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <7D086D55-549B-499F-A86A-22F908F60489@icloud.com> On Oct 2, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > > All this UUCP chatter reminded me of the backbone cabal. The source > of many early Usenet conspiracy theories :-) > > Is there an archive of the cabal mailing list anywhere? > > I know it was a private list, but there is a *lot* of history in > there about the development of the UUCP mail networks, and Usenet. > It's well over 30 years since that list was active (I would guess). > Certainly the statute of limitations has long expired for any > transgressions contained therein. Or even if it's too early to > open up, a copy should be permanently archived somewhere, if a > copy still exists. > > --lyndon > ? I don?t remember offhand, but there is a Wikipedia page about it with links to more information. [1] I remember sometime after NNTP was released, someone did an analysis of the transitive closure of paths Usenet news posts took, and determined that most were going via NNTP, instead of dialup UUCP. --gregbo [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backbone_cabal From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Thu Oct 2 20:29:03 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 20:29:03 -0700 Subject: [ih] The Backbone Cabal In-Reply-To: <4a61b189cd252449@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61b189cd252449@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <1E086DFF-DC51-4EB6-B87B-A8FB054CA9B9@icloud.com> On Oct 2, 2025, at 4:58?PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: > > All this UUCP chatter reminded me of the backbone cabal. The source > of many early Usenet conspiracy theories :-) > > Is there an archive of the cabal mailing list anywhere? > > I know it was a private list, but there is a *lot* of history in > there about the development of the UUCP mail networks, and Usenet. > It's well over 30 years since that list was active (I would guess). > Certainly the statute of limitations has long expired for any > transgressions contained therein. Or even if it's too early to > open up, a copy should be permanently archived somewhere, if a > copy still exists. > > --lyndon > -- This news.groups post from Dave Taylor of HP Labs suggests that the backbone cabal?s address could have been backbone at cbosgd.att.com (or [some well-connected UUCP path]!cbosgd!backbone). [1] If you google news.admin, news.groups, comp.mail.maps and some other newsgroups where discussions about what groups to carry, news feeds to take, etc. took place, you?ll see many posts about the backbone cabal. --gregbo [1] https://groups.google.com/g/news.groups/c/O9df9nr1dTQ/m/AQzb-sQe8okJ From mgrant at grant.org Fri Oct 3 02:05:10 2025 From: mgrant at grant.org (Michael Grant) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:05:10 +0000 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> Message-ID: >From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing is unreliable. My speculation is that traffic loads when near a port include all the land-based users and the network may be overwhelmed. But that's just speculation, I have no data. > I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these last few years. I don't know when the Internet started becoming available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on Holland America. Simply put, the service was awful and expensive regardless if the ship was in port or not. It used a geostationary satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball. When the ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it. In 2010, iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most of your money waiting. Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better. 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer charged a per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary link and you still had to "log on" via a captive portal. We were able to have absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time. I was amazed because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the delay was unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and traceroute that we were actually using a geostationary link and not Starlink! In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have Starlink. They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae mounted high up near one of the stacks (6 on each side). They run 12 separate Starlink connections. I am going to describe what Cunard does but I suspect they are all similar. Cunard runs a VPN which bonds together the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down the packet is sent out any antenna. (I don't know which VPN they use nor do I know how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, sorry!) The VPN is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami Florida, US depending on where the ship is (they change over midway across the Atlantic). They run something like bufferbloat to share the b/w more fairly. They also run a firewall where they block quite a few sites. I have had to ask them to unblock things which they have kindly done. I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that they may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange for being able to capture that market. I don't know for sure though. I do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink now. My only gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want 2 devices, so for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to use whatsapp to find one another on-board, it's well overpriced. They charge about USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price where for the cost of 2 devices you can have up to 4. The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports. They continue to use the satellite network even in port. This is likely because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi they would quickly saturate it. It's also likely because several of the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security reasons they want that going over their VPN. I have not noticed much difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship. I suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and such. I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other than maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with other Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in the sky. Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years. Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins. Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would literally seize up. I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to a firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately it was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would have had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it would have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies. This is only turned on when at sea. At port, they turn off the maritime telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet connection. Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has been plenty. However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive. I have talked with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone bills! Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to easy to just use it because it works. Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but as far as I am aware this is not hooked up to some general system for the public. It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms for the bridge. All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech people on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping and traceroute. Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or satellite networking industry myself. I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone on this list knows more. It would also be interesting to see a thread of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows about that. Michael Grant From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl Fri Oct 3 02:50:25 2025 From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2025 11:50:25 +0200 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <202510030950.5939oP2Y084605@bela.nlnetlabs.nl> "Lyndon Nerenberg \(VE7TFX/VE6BBM\) via Internet-history" writes: > > Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via > PADs. Nope. The f-protocol stems from the CWI (also known as mcvax). Piet Beertema developed it to talk to an X.25 PAD connected to the in-house micom portselector. He announced it on Usenet . That it seemed to come from Berkeley was likely because we were a beta test site for BSD 4.x. jaap From woody at pch.net Fri Oct 3 05:01:15 2025 From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 14:01:15 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> > On Oct 3, 2025, at 11:05, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: > > From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing is unreliable. My speculation is that traffic loads when near a port include all the land-based users and the network may be overwhelmed. But that's just speculation, I have no data. >> > I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these last few years. I don't know when the Internet started becoming available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on Holland America. In 1996, the ISP I was running at the time put the cargo fleets of American President Lines and Neptune Orient Lines on the Internet. At the time, to the best of anyone involved?s knowledge, they were the first civilian ships that had been connected to the Internet. Our technical staff were mostly on the west coast of the US, so APL and NOL would have the ships come in to Long Beach, and our techs would do the install, getting off at Oakland if all went well, or Tacoma if they went poorly. Or Anchorage, in a couple of cases that went really badly. They all used a 2m gyrostabilized dish in a spherical radome connecting on-demand to Inmarsat at 9600bps when at sea, and NCR WaveLAN radios on sector antennas while in (or near) port. I can?t remember now how many of the ports we built cells at? all the major ones on the west coast of North America from Long Beach to Dutch Harbor, and several in Asia; Hong Kong, Busan and Manila, and a bunch in Japan? Okinawa, Fukuoka, and Nagoya, I think. The main uses were email, database synchronization, and file transfer. We wrote a UUCP shim for their SQL database synchronization, and then the UUCP ran on-demand over serial while they were at sea, and full-time over TCP as soon as they got close enough to port to pick up signal from our installation there. The ports were mostly fractional T1 with frame relay back to our PoPs. All the APL ships were named after, you got it, American presidents, but being California-based, there was a preference for the more liberal presidents. But in all our systems, we needed unique identifiers for the ships, because they all had static /26s onboard and everything was uniquely addressed? So we had an AV cart with a big UPS on the bottom shelf that we used to demo new things for them, and it had a little fake prow on the front, and was named the President Nixon. -Bill From frantisek.borsik at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 06:29:40 2025 From: frantisek.borsik at gmail.com (Frantisek Borsik) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 15:29:40 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> Message-ID: Since January 2024, Starlink finally implemented FQ-CoDel; thanks to many great people on this list pushing Elon and the company into it, but most of them all - thanks to our badly missed Dave Taht: https://circleid.com/posts/20240311-starlink-has-begun-delivering-promised-latency-cuts Here is @Larry Press 's experience with Starlink on cruise ships (Seabourn Venture) from May 2024. Such a pity we can't share what we see at LibreQoS, helping cruise ships to make that internet experience on cruise ships even better, but let me tell you in general that those using LibreQoS, on top of basic FQ-CoDel in Starlink routers, are able to even better squeeze that performance out of it and to manage and allocate resources even more tightly. The biggest scare for such companies is high fees if they use more bandwidth than allocated, so we are helping with that as well. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik at gmail.com On Fri, Oct 3, 2025 at 2:01?PM Bill Woodcock via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > On Oct 3, 2025, at 11:05, Michael Grant via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > >> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships > works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. When > it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing is > unreliable. My speculation is that traffic loads when near a port include > all the land-based users and the network may be overwhelmed. But that's > just speculation, I have no data. > >> > > I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these last > few years. I don't know when the Internet started becoming available on > cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on Holland America. > > In 1996, the ISP I was running at the time put the cargo fleets of > American President Lines and Neptune Orient Lines on the Internet. At the > time, to the best of anyone involved?s knowledge, they were the first > civilian ships that had been connected to the Internet. Our technical > staff were mostly on the west coast of the US, so APL and NOL would have > the ships come in to Long Beach, and our techs would do the install, > getting off at Oakland if all went well, or Tacoma if they went poorly. Or > Anchorage, in a couple of cases that went really badly. They all used a 2m > gyrostabilized dish in a spherical radome connecting on-demand to Inmarsat > at 9600bps when at sea, and NCR WaveLAN radios on sector antennas while in > (or near) port. I can?t remember now how many of the ports we built cells > at? all the major ones on the west coast of North America from Long Beach > to Dutch Harbor, and several in Asia; Hong Kong, Busan and Manila, and a > bunch in Japan? Okinawa, Fukuoka, and Nagoya, I think. The main uses were > email, database synchronization, and file transfer. We wrote a UUCP shim > for their SQL database synchronization, and then the UUCP ran on-demand > over serial while they were at sea, and full-time over TCP as soon as they > got close enough to port to pick up signal from our installation there. > The ports were mostly fractional T1 with frame relay back to our PoPs. > > All the APL ships were named after, you got it, American presidents, but > being California-based, there was a preference for the more liberal > presidents. But in all our systems, we needed unique identifiers for the > ships, because they all had static /26s onboard and everything was uniquely > addressed? So we had an AV cart with a big UPS on the bottom shelf that we > used to demo new things for them, and it had a little fake prow on the > front, and was named the President Nixon. > > -Bill > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 20:31:32 2025 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2025 23:31:32 -0400 Subject: [ih] Single Malt Scotch and the history of the net Re: DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: <1502383186.2998117.1759362362960@mail.yahoo.com> References: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> <1502383186.2998117.1759362362960@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:46?PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > The role of Single Malt Scotch in the history of the net is a topic that deserves exploration One aspect of that is that MALTS-L was a very early mailing list not directly responsive to the (d)ARPA-net charter. (I suspect SF-lovers was in fact earlier but can neither confirm nor refute. Yet. It moved hosts repeatedly so full archives are unavailable.) My mentor in such matter, Mike Padlipsky, aka MAP, was an early if not founding member of MALTS-L, and would stop in Scotland when returning from European sittings of IRG to do "research" at the Aviemore "Cairngorm Whisky Centre" (a Scotch Library, alas since closed). Before Sir Tim invented a Web for Web Logs to be abbreviated to 'blogs', Mike was effectively blogging his Single Malt Scotch search on MALTS-L (by email). Already in the 1970s one of the early network implementors, or "Old Network Boys" as MAP punned, "had dropped out and bought a 'mom and pop' tree nursery in Boring [OR] with his then-new bride. He was also one of the two other Old Network Boys with whom I'd had my/our first tastes of Laphroaig, from around 1 A.M. to 4 A.M. after a meeting at SRI a few years earlier to do something vaguely historical, probably refine the File Transfer Protocol" is central to the prologue of his 40 year quest for the A&N Glen Grant MOHM (and whatever was second best). AFAIK MAP never wrote the full tale, so I've collected his "Prolegomena", his progress reports, and my own telling of the tragic phyrric denouement. (Along with his database of tasting notes, and the tasting list for his wake, catered from his own cellar.) https://n1vux.github.io/articles/MAP/Malt/index.html (From there you can also go up to his technical bibliography and his ~first~ second ever thesis on SciFi as Lit Crit.) As MAP would have said, Muted Cheers Bill Ricker, Boston Literary and Spiritous Estate of Michael A Padlipsky From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Thu Oct 2 21:59:58 2025 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 00:59:58 -0400 Subject: [ih] How an internet mapping glitch turned a random Kansas farm into a digital hell (Fusion) In-Reply-To: <20251002195913.4B4A2DF803F7@ary.qy> References: <20251002195913.4B4A2DF803F7@ary.qy> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 2, 2025 at 3:59?PM John Levine via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > It appears that Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history said: > >While not uninteresting, where is the IH relevance? > > Their problem was that one of the large IP address geolocation > services had a default value for unknown networks that happened to be > their house, and a lot of people were sure that their lost or stolen > whatever they'd located by IP lookup was there. > Not exactly "Default." The normal blank value returned for NOT FOUND when geocoding without separate success/fail flag [as good protocol design would have!] is (latitude, longitude)=(0.0,0.0), which is the home of the buoy at 0? N, 0? E-W in the Gulf of Guinea. (Yes, there's now a Buoy there. So it's now *_sometimes_* a valid value, but rarely. (0,0), was nicknamed "Null Island" because of the geocoding default issue long before the buoy, which is officially "Soul buoy", but gets called Null Island still too. (-99.99, -99.99) might have been a better albeit COBOLish NULL value which would be out-of-range to use for mapping or directions and one hopes error eventually in a vaguely useful way. Now they tell me!) The problem for this farm is if geocoding the IP address resolved to *USA* but not *_otherwise*_ differentiated, such as if it were a dynamic address for a national provider/reseller, the geocoding does the same as it does for any much smaller region name: it returned the centroid of the *named region*, which by their calculation of the centroid of the USA was on this very farm. (Other centroid calculations get different centroids for USA or Lower 48; the old size-of-ruler-problem.) Alas it returned excess digits of precision without a (? 1500 miles, ?1000miles) error range to show the lack of precision, and since it pinned a specific domicile, was (mis)understood to be a definite IP-address-to-house-address match. (While we know people with single family homes with static IPv4 addresses, that's the exception, and someone should've told the cops or at least the D.A.s & Judges before they started geocoding IP addresses for search warrants. _We_ don't believe computers are infallible because we have to fix them, but so many others are gullible and accept GIGO answers at face value.) I believe the fix was to move the default to the middle of a nearby lake. I > expected some enterprising kid would set up a kiosk renting rowboats and > snorkels. Sounds vaguely familiar. One hopes they arranged for _all_ centroids to land in parks or ponds and not homes, not just the USA centroid that complained. (The genealogy application that I use uses 42.3 N, 71.8 W as centroid of Massachusetts; that is moderately safely in the rear parking of a Worcester Post Office (01606). Wikipedia uses 42.3 N, 72.0 W as Massachusetts; that is in the woods by the pond on the grounds of St Joesph's Abbey, home of Trappist Preserves, but far from both the buildings and the nearest state road. So rather obviously a centroid and not a definite geolocated 'hit'. Another algorithm could pick centroid anywhere between or somewhat beyond those points.) -- Bill Ricker bill.n1vux at gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux From touch at strayalpha.com Fri Oct 3 07:32:28 2025 From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 07:32:28 -0700 Subject: [ih] How an internet mapping glitch turned a random Kansas farm into a digital hell (Fusion) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71E1EC42-FE6E-43B5-8D86-433CCFDC6D8F@strayalpha.com> Agreed - this list is not the place to discuss all the Internet?s problems, just Internet history. Please continue this discussion elsewhere. Joe (list admin/owner) ? Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Oct 2, 2025, at 9:24?AM, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: > > While not uninteresting, where is the IH relevance? > > el > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 2, 2025 at 17:46 +0200, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history , wrote: >> EXCERPT: >> >> An hour?s drive from Wichita, Kansas, in a little town called Potwin, there >> is a 360-acre piece of land with a very big problem. From gnu at toad.com Fri Oct 3 09:11:47 2025 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2025 09:11:47 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <86frc1qinb.fsf@pew.airs.com> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aec4c97fbb58@orthanc.ca> <86frc1qinb.fsf@pew.airs.com> Message-ID: <28947.1759507907@hop.toad.com> The earliest posting that I saved of the "f" protocol for UUCP over X.25 was on 1984-07-31; it's below. Piet Beertema of mcvax in Amsterdam was the author. He later posted a bug-fixed version on 1984-09-26 in message-ID <6006 at mcvax.UUCP>. The protocol was incorporated by Rick Adams, who maintained uucp for the BSD 4.3 release. Later, Chris Lewis created a matching X.25 PAD dialer, which he wrote about on 1986-10-24 (also below) and later posted to mod.sources v08i050 on 1987-02-09. He noted that "Protocol 'f' and the dialer work quite well - mnetor (my previous home) has taken over almost all of utzoo's long haul incoming news feed - getting it from seismo." John >From decwrl!decvax!mcvax!piet Tue Jul 31 09:58:22 1984 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83 SMI; site sun.uucp Posting-Version: version B 2.10.1 6/24/83 (MC840302); site mcvax.UUCP Path: sun!decwrl!decvax!mcvax!piet From: piet at mcvax.UUCP (Piet Beertema) Newsgroups: net.sources Subject: new uucp protocol Message-ID: <5919 at mcvax.UUCP> Date: Tue, 31-Jul-84 09:58:22 PDT Article-I.D.: mcvax.5919 Posted: Tue Jul 31 09:58:22 1984 Date-Received: Sun, 5-Aug-84 07:19:17 PDT Organization: CWI, Amsterdam Lines: 430 <...> Here is a new uucp protocol for use over X.25+PAD connections. It can be used too on direct lines and 7-bit links, provided the receiving machine is fast enough to handle high-speed flow control (e.g. no 11/45's etc.). The reason for introducing this protocol: In Europe there is an increasing tendency to switch uucp links (especially the international links) from phone to X.25, because that would be both faster and cheaper. Initial tests however proved that this was *not* the case, due to (often long) delays in the X.25 network. It turned out that with 4800 Baud lines no effective speed higher than ~1200 Baud could be attained! Besides it proved to be even more expensive than phone links. The cause of this was the standard g-protocol which, when used over X.25, exchanges more than 3 times as many packets as would be needed for the data. Now the problem is that when you're using a PAD to link to the X.25 network, you effectively have an async line, which *could* introduce errors, so you can't use an X.25-dedicated protocol that doesn't control the data flow and makes no security checks on the data. Besides special care should be taken with control characters, that may be meaningful for a PAD. The f-protocol given here overcomes these difficulties. It has been tested now for about two months. On 4800 Baud links it can attain an effective speed of ~4000 Baud. Pity is that I still haven't found a site in the USA to test it with, so I can't say as yet what speeds can be reached on a transatlantic link. Adding this proto to uucico requires only two minor changes to the existing sources: - in cico.c the signals SIGINT and SIGQUIT must be ignored not only in MASTER mode, but also in SLAVE mode. Move the corresponding lines to before the "if (Role == MASTER) {" line. - in cntrl.c a line "sleep(2);" must be added before "WMESG(HUP, "");" to prevent timing problems during f-proto turnon. WARNING: if you've installed this proto and have a phone link to a site that has installed it too, you must hack the sources to prevent selection of it on a phone link or use a separate uucico for that link. Here's the source of the f-proto, fio.c: /* * fio.c; flow-control protocol. * * This protocol relies basically on flow control of the * data stream. It is meant for working over links that * can (almost) be guaranteed to be errorfree, like direct * or X.25 links. * It carries out a sumcheck over a whole file only. If a * file transport fails the receiving side can request * retransmission(s). * This protocol uses a 7-bit datapath only, so it can be * used on links that are not 8-bit transparent. * * Author: Piet Beertema, CWI, June 1984. */ #include "uucp.h" #include #ifdef SIII #include #else #include #endif SIII #include #define MAXRETRIES 1 /* max. attempts to retransmit a file */ #define FBUFSIZ 256 static int chksum; static jmp_buf Ffailbuf; static falarm() { longjmp(Ffailbuf, 1); } static int (*fsig)(); #ifndef SIII #define TCGETA TIOCGETP #define TCSETA TIOCSETP #define termio sgttyb #endif SIII fturnon() { int ret; struct termio ttbuf; ioctl(Ifn, TCGETA, &ttbuf); #ifdef SIII ttbuf.iflag = IXOFF|IXON|ISTRIP; ttbuf.c_cc[4] = FBUFSIZ > 64 ? 64 : FBUFSIZ; ttbuf.c_cc[5] = 5; #else ttbuf.sg_flags = ANYP|CBREAK|TANDEM; #endif SIII ret = ioctl(Ifn, TCSETA, &ttbuf); ASSERT(ret >= 0, "STTY FAILED", "", ret); fsig = signal(SIGALRM, falarm); return 0; } fturnoff() { (void) signal(SIGALRM, fsig); return 0; } fwrmsg(type, str, fn) register char *str; int fn; char type; { register char *s; char bufr[MAXMSGLEN]; s = bufr; *s++ = type; while (*str) *s++ = *str++; if (*(s-1) == '\n') s--; *s++ = '\r'; (void) write(fn, bufr, s - bufr); return 0; } frdmsg(str, fn) register char *str; register int fn; { register char *smax; if (setjmp(Ffailbuf)) return FAIL; smax = str + MAXMSGLEN - 1; for (;;) { (void) alarm(MAXMSGTIME); if (read(fn, str, 1) <= 0) return FAIL; if (*str == '\r') break; if (str++ >= smax) return FAIL; } *str = '\0'; (void) alarm(0); return 0; } fwrdata(fp1, fn) FILE *fp1; int fn; { register int flen, alen, ret; register char *obp; char ibuf[FBUFSIZ]; char ack; long abytes, fbytes; time_t t1, t2; struct sgttyb sgtty; ret = FAIL; retry: chksum = 0xffff; abytes = fbytes = 0L; time(&t1); while ((flen = fread(ibuf, sizeof (char), FBUFSIZ, fp1)) > 0) { if ((alen = fwrblk(fn, ibuf, flen)) < 0) goto acct; fbytes += flen; abytes += alen; } sprintf(ibuf, "\176\176%4x", chksum); alen = strlen(ibuf); if (write(fn, ibuf, alen) == alen) { abytes += alen; DEBUG(8, "%d\n", 6); DEBUG(8, "checksum: %4x\n", chksum); } if (frdmsg(ibuf, fn) < 0) { ack = 0; goto acct; } ack = ibuf[0]; DEBUG(8, "got ack: '%c'\n", ack); if (ack == 'G') ret = 0; acct: time(&t2); sprintf(ibuf, ret == 0 ? "sent data %ld bytes %ld secs" : "send failed after %ld bytes %ld secs", fbytes, t2 - t1); DEBUG(1, "%s\n", ibuf); syslog(ibuf); sysacct(abytes, t2 - t1); if (ack == 'R') { DEBUG(4, "RETRY:\n", 0); fseek(fp1, 0L, 0); goto retry; } return ret; } frddata(fn, fp2) register int fn; register FILE *fp2; { register int flen; register char eof; char ibuf[FBUFSIZ]; int ret, alen, retries = 0; long abytes, fbytes; time_t t1, t2; ret = FAIL; retry: chksum = 0xffff; abytes = fbytes = 0L; time(&t1); do { if ((flen = frdblk(ibuf, fn, &alen)) < 0) goto acct; if (eof = flen > FBUFSIZ) flen -= FBUFSIZ + 1; fbytes += flen; abytes += alen; if (fwrite(ibuf, sizeof (char), flen, fp2) != flen) goto acct; } while (!eof); ret = 0; acct: time(&t2); sprintf(ibuf, ret == 0 ? "received data %ld bytes %ld secs" : "receive failed after %ld bytes %ld secs", fbytes, t2 - t1); DEBUG(1, "%s\n", ibuf); syslog(ibuf); sysacct(abytes, t2 - t1); if (ret) { if (retries++ < MAXRETRIES) { DEBUG(8, "send ack: 'R'\n", 0); fwrmsg('R', "", fn); fseek(fp2, 0L, 0); DEBUG(4, "RETRY:\n", 0); goto retry; } DEBUG(8, "send ack: 'Q'\n", 0); fwrmsg('Q', "", fn); } else { DEBUG(8, "send ack: 'G'\n", 0); fwrmsg('G', "", fn); } return ret; } frdbuf(blk, len, fn) register char *blk; register int len; register int fn; { register int ret; if (setjmp(Ffailbuf)) return FAIL; (void) alarm(MAXCHARTIME); ret = read(fn, blk, len); alarm(0); return ret <= 0 ? FAIL : ret; } /* Byte conversion: * * from pre to * 000-037 172 100-137 * 040-171 040-171 * 172-177 173 072-077 * 200-237 174 100-137 * 240-371 175 040-171 * 372-377 176 072-077 */ fwrblk(fn, ip, len) int fn; register char *ip; register int len; { register char *op; register int sum, nl; char obuf[FBUFSIZ * 2]; DEBUG(8, "%d/", len); op = obuf; nl = 0; sum = chksum; do { if ((sum <<= 1) & 0x10000) sum++; sum = ((sum & 0xffff) + (*ip & 0377)) & 0xffff; if (*ip & 0200) { *ip &= 0177; if (*ip < 040) { *op++ = '\174'; *op++ = *ip++ + 0100; } else if (*ip <= 0171) { *op++ = '\175'; *op++ = *ip++; } else { *op++ = '\176'; *op++ = *ip++ - 0100; } nl += 2; } else { if (*ip < 040) { *op++ = '\172'; *op++ = *ip++ + 0100; nl += 2; } else if (*ip <= 0171) { *op++ = *ip++; nl++; } else { *op++ = '\173'; *op++ = *ip++ - 0100; nl += 2; } } } while (--len); chksum = sum; DEBUG(8, "%d,", nl); return write(fn, obuf, nl) == nl ? nl : FAIL; } frdblk(ip, fn, rlen) register char *ip; int fn, *rlen; { register char *op, c; register int sum; register int len, nl; char buf[5]; int i; static char special = 0; if ((*rlen = len = frdbuf(ip, FBUFSIZ, fn)) < 0) return FAIL; DEBUG(8, "%d/", len); op = ip; nl = 0; sum = chksum; do { if (*ip >= '\172') { if (special) { DEBUG(8, "%d", nl); special = 0; ip++; op = buf; i = --len; while (i--) *op++ = *ip++; while (len < 4) { i = frdbuf(&buf[len], 4 - len, fn); if (i < 0) return FAIL; DEBUG(8, ",%d", i); len += i; *rlen += i; } sscanf(buf, "%4x", &chksum); DEBUG(8, "\nchecksum: %4x\n", sum); if (chksum == sum) return FBUFSIZ + 1 + nl; else { DEBUG(4, "Bad checksum\n", 0); return FAIL; } } special = *ip++; } else { if (*ip < '\040') { /* error: shouldn't get control chars */ special = 0; sum = chksum ? 0 : 0xffff; break; } switch (special) { case 0: c = *ip++; break; case '\172': c = *ip++ - 0100; break; case '\173': c = *ip++ + 0100; break; case '\174': c = *ip++ + 0100; break; case '\175': c = *ip++ + 0200; break; case '\176': c = *ip++ + 0300; break; } *op++ = c; if ((sum <<= 1) & 0x10000) sum++; sum = ((sum & 0xffff) + (c & 0377)) & 0xffff; special = 0; nl++; } } while (--len); chksum = sum; DEBUG(8, "%d,", nl); return nl; } -- Piet Beertema, CWI, Amsterdam ...{decvax,philabs}!mcvax!piet >From ptsfa!lll-lcc!lll-crg!nike!sri-spam!rutgers!seismo!mnetor!spectrix!clewis Fri Oct 24 08:19:42 1986 Relay-Version: version B 2.10.3 4.3bsd-beta 6/6/85; site hoptoad.uucp Path: hoptoad!ptsfa!lll-lcc!lll-crg!nike!sri-spam!rutgers!seismo!mnetor!spectrix!clewis From: clewis at spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) Newsgroups: net.sources.bugs Subject: Re: Need help with UUCP over X.25 Message-ID: <176 at spectrix.UUCP> Date: 24 Oct 86 15:19:42 GMT Date-Received: References: <44700004 at cdp> <532 at argus.UUCP> Reply-To: clewis at spectrix.UUCP (Chris Lewis) Organization: Spectrix Microsystems Inc., Toronto, Ontario, Canada Lines: 80 In article <532 at argus.UUCP> ken at argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) writes: >In article <44700004 at cdp>, scott at cdp.UUCP writes: >> >> I would like to talk to someone who has an X.25 connection to >> Telenet, runs SysVr2 vanilla UUCP or something close, and has >> people call them via Telenet to run UUCP. Any pointers on >> running UUCP over Telenet would be appreciated. >> >> -scott >> 415-322-9060 >> {ihnp4,...}!hplabs!cdp!scott > >If you get this to work I'd be interested. About a year ago this >site tried to get uucp to work over a couple Dynapac X.25 pads. >It never worked. Apparently the problem is that uucp does not >have an option to use only 7 bit data transfer. It seems that >all the options uucp has are variations of the same single option. >By the way, I never found documentation that says that uucp needs >8 bit transfer, the local Unix guru swears that uucp works 7 bit >however. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Back in my cX days, we did get SVR2 and BSD4.2 UUCP standard protocol "g" talking over Motorola/MICOM PADS. Basically, you have to dedicate an "outgoing" PAD line/tty and/or "incoming" PAD line/ttys. Then, you have to set quite a few parameters on these lines in the PAD. I can't remember all of the details, but these are a few that I remember: 1) 8-bit data path 2) packet timeout (we used the minimum - 50 ms. I think) 3) Turn off *ALL* special characters - especially ^P. 4) packet size shouldn't matter much. You should be able to put the parameter settings plus the "conn" sequences into the L.sys file. Once this is done, normal "g" protocol will work, but VERY slowly. Eg: on 9600 baud lines all of the way through the network, we were acheiving effective baud rates of about 600 to 1200. Eg: takes 64 Ms. to place the packet in the PAD, 50 Ms. later it times out and sends the packet, then the other side writes the acknowledge into the remote PAD, and the remote PAD waits another 50 ms. before sending it back. Approx 3:1 time expansion. Further, you might have problems trying to hang up the connection. Further, since you are always sending short packets (most of them only a few bytes), it'll cost a lot if your network is charging "per-packet" (ala DATAPAC). YECH! Yes, "g" protocol *DOES* use 8 bit data transmission. After we got this to work, I started thinking about writing a new protocol, when, miracle of miracles, we managed to get a copy of alpha 4.3 UUCP. It has protocol "f" which is designed for X.25 PADS. We acheived thruput in excess of 5600 baud. Protocol "f" is rather simple minded: 1) Most non-printing characters (ASCII and 8th bit on chars) are converted into two characters. 2) The whole file is blasted out on the line without any packetization. 3) The only acknowledge is a checksum exchange after the file has been transmitted. 4) X-ON/X-OFF better work well between your computer and the PAD - if you drop characters, UUCP only notices it at the end of the transmission and simply retransmits the whole file again. Can be very expensive with big files. I've written a "proper" "PAD" dialer (as opposed to ACU or DIR) for protocol "f" and sent it off to Rick Adams - however, it was probably too late for inclusion in the "official" 4.3 release. This dialer does all of the PAD parameter settings itself, so that it is no longer necessary to dedicate PAD lines. If you already have 4.3 UUCP, you'll already have the "f" protocol itself. If you have 4.3 UUCP and you're interested in the dialer, contact me for a copy of it. However, because of rather extensive internal differences between 4.3 UUCP and it's predecessors, I am unable to help people add proto "f" into non-4.3 UUCP's. Protocol "f" and the dialer work quite well - mnetor (my previous home) has taken over almost all of utzoo's long haul incoming news feed - getting it from seismo. -- Chris Lewis UUCP: {utzoo|utcs|yetti|genat|seismo}!mnetor!spectrix!clewis Phone: (416)-474-1955 From clemc at ccc.com Fri Oct 3 10:10:44 2025 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 13:10:44 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <202510030950.5939oP2Y084605@bela.nlnetlabs.nl> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <202510030950.5939oP2Y084605@bela.nlnetlabs.nl> Message-ID: Thanks. I was right, it went out via a USENET posting. I have forgotten who and which list. Clem On Fri, Oct 3, 2025 at 5:50?AM Jaap Akkerhuis via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > "Lyndon Nerenberg \(VE7TFX/VE6BBM\) via Internet-history" writes: > > > > > Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via > > PADs. > > Nope. The f-protocol stems from the CWI (also known as mcvax). Piet > Beertema developed it to talk to an X.25 PAD connected to the > in-house micom portselector. > > He announced it on Usenet ? > and people took it from there. You'll find more messages about UUCP > on that site. > > It also became part of the EUUG network distribution tape which had > among other things, a version of uucp (inspired by the honeydanber > uucp). In Europe this version of uucp was used a lot. Some more > details of the spread of uucp etc. can be found, among other things, > in Piet's musings on his site . > > That it seemed to come from Berkeley was likely because we were a > beta test site for BSD 4.x. > > jaap > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From gnu at toad.com Fri Oct 3 10:22:45 2025 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Fri, 03 Oct 2025 10:22:45 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 (DARPA Packet Radio network protocols) In-Reply-To: <2050243560.3442158.1759451859106@mail.yahoo.com> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <71a5d2fc-45a7-403e-a6be-6920a704f15c@3kitty.org> <8B1485B7-0486-4DB1-9E68-EF9772C07B9F@tzi.org> <176281924.3317624.1759433338664@mail.yahoo.com> <54cc6ea8-5cfb-4d9c-80fd-7c23ed4b7ef4@3kitty.org> <2050243560.3442158.1759451859106@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <32022.1759512165@hop.toad.com> Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > J. Jubin and J. D. Tornow, "The DARPA packet radio network protocols," in Proceedings of the IEEE, vol. 75, no. 1, pp. 21-32, Jan. 1987, doi: 10.1109/PROC.1987.13702. > Google search brings up a copy of this paper at Cornell but I am not sure it is reachable anymore. There's an accessible copy in the Internet Archive here: https://archive.org/download/wikipedia-scholarly-sources-corpus/10.1109%252FMS.2011.87.zip/10.1109%252Fproc.1987.13702.pdf It should be findable in the Digital Library of Amateur Radio and Communications, also at archive.org, and probably will be shortly. John From karl at iwl.com Fri Oct 3 10:26:24 2025 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 10:26:24 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> Some years back (circa 2010?) we also took a cruise and were annoyed by how slow was access to the net. So we made a video about it: https://vimeo.com/815203660 ? ? ? ? --karl-- On 10/3/25 2:05 AM, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: > From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" > >> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships >> works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. >> When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing is >> unreliable.?? My speculation is that traffic loads when near a port >> include all the land-based users and the network may be overwhelmed.? >> But that's just speculation, I have no data. >> > I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these > last few years.? I don't know when the Internet started becoming > available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on > Holland America.? Simply put, the service was awful and expensive > regardless if the ship was in port or not.? It used a geostationary > satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball.? When the > ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the > minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive > web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it.? In 2010, > iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most > of your money waiting. > > Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better.? 3 > or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer charged a > per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary link and > you still had to "log on" via a captive portal.? We were able to have > absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time.? I was amazed > because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the delay was > unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and traceroute that > we were actually using a geostationary link and not Starlink! > > In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have Starlink.? > They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae mounted high up > near one of the stacks (6 on each side).? They run 12 separate > Starlink connections.? I am going to describe what Cunard does but I > suspect they are all similar.? Cunard runs a VPN which bonds together > the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down the packet is > sent out any antenna.? (I don't know which VPN they use nor do I know > how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, sorry!)? The VPN > is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami Florida, US depending > on where the ship is (they change over midway across the Atlantic).? > They run something like bufferbloat to share the b/w more fairly.? > They also run a firewall where they block quite a few sites.? I have > had to ask them to unblock things which they have kindly done. > > I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that they > may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange for > being able to capture that market.? I don't know for sure though.? I > do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink now.? My only > gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want 2 devices, so > for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to use whatsapp to > find one another on-board, it's well overpriced.? They charge about > USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price where for the cost > of 2 devices you can have up to 4. > > The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports.? They > continue to use the satellite network even in port.? This is likely > because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi > they would quickly saturate it.? It's also likely because several of > the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security > reasons they want that going over their VPN.? I have not noticed much > difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, > if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship.? I > suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people > saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing > research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and > such.? I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other than > maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with other > Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in the sky. > > Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years.? > Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins.? > Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would > literally seize up.? I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to a > firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately it > was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would have > had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it would > have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. > > Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had > separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime > Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies.? This is > only turned on when at sea.? At port, they turn off the maritime > telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. > > I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and > separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet > connection.?? Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for > me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when > on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has > been plenty.? However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and > especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive.? I have talked > with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it > unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone > bills!? Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to > easy to just use it because it works. > > Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but as > far as I am aware this is? not hooked up to some general system for > the public.? It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms for > the bridge. > > All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a > passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech people > on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping and > traceroute.? Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or > satellite networking industry myself. > > I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone > on this list knows more.? It would also be interesting to see a thread > of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows about that. > > Michael Grant From karl at iwl.com Fri Oct 3 11:01:39 2025 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 11:01:39 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet in the Air: Was Re: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> Message-ID: <5b424221-b47b-4913-ad6a-0f58233b1d11@iwl.com> Thinking of Internet at Sea, there is also "Internet in the Air" (there is also "Internet in automobiles", which has some similar issues.) Several years back we did some work with the FAA and Boeing who were trying to figure out how to improve air traffic control over the mid-Pacific.? At that time there was not solid voice connectivity to aircraft way out in the middle of the Pacific. (There were some lower frequency radios that could do the job, much of the time, but they were not particularly favored.) We put modified Cisco routers and other gear onto some commercial trans-Pacific aircraft and played.? Because pilots are used to push-to-talk systems and long response times, we could cache voice spurts and interleave those with other traffic.? That gave us a lot of flexibility about adding things like redundancy in case of RF noise. We began our experiments with geo-synch satellites.? We intended to move to low earth orbit satellites, and then aircraft-to-aircraft relays (with each airplane acting as an ever-moving IP router) but we ran out of funding.? (It can be expensive working with trans-oceanic capable aircraft.) For pilots the geo-synch links worked.? (I wanted to experiment with tokenized voice like what had been done earlier at SDC for communications with certain kinds of manned undersea vehicles. ATC communications are highly stylized with a small core vocabulary.? This would have allowed common words to be converted to nice short tokens.? The voice of a given speaker would not be reproduced accurately, but the words would be synthetically generated at the receiving end and generally were rather more clear to the listener than typical ATC voice.) The geo-synch path worked wasn't so great for passengers.? As usual a lot of onboard caching helped. By-the-way, one of the lessons I took from the DARPA Robotics Challenge (I worked on that for several years) is that we networking people can learn a lot from the undersea sound/communications people at places at MBARI and Woods Hole.? I was amazed at how they were able to pull a usable signal from a very noisy channel even without forward error correction. (On the geosync system we were using access was moderated via a ground station in Texas.? One got to that moderator using Aloha style access.? The moderator came back with a time slot (usually a few hundred milliseconds beginning at a specified time.)? So, apart from the need for well synchronized clocks on the aircraft the typical access time to the main channel could be several seconds.? Again, that was OK for the pilots, but not for passengers.) There are, of course, issues that are too often overlooked when using a single bent-pipe link via a geosync satellite, such as solar blanking (when either the satellite transits the face of the sun from the point of the view of the sending or receiving ground station or when the satellite's view of a ground station is blinded because or a reflection of the sun off of the earth.? At that time tracking low earth satellites from a moving platform was not well developed - At Sun we had designed some highly portable antenna capabilities to track low earth satellites from Steve Robert's bicycle, but for that project we were aiming only at about 32kbits/second, which is OK, but marginal, for non-tokenized voice. I of course suggested a technology we created on the Interop Show net back in 1998: "Gaganet", trans-relativistic networking: https://www.cavebear.com/cb_catalog/techno/gaganet/ (Some people actually believe that this was real, and not a joke.) ? ? ? ? --karl-- From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 13:01:09 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 09:01:09 +1300 Subject: [ih] Internet in the Air: Was Re: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <5b424221-b47b-4913-ad6a-0f58233b1d11@iwl.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> <5b424221-b47b-4913-ad6a-0f58233b1d11@iwl.com> Message-ID: <2757c8d7-7c93-471a-8d9b-32187dd0bc0a@gmail.com> Implementation of RFC 1149 preceded Connexion by Boeing by about 5 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers I still have my first receipt from Connexion by Boeing - $9.95 for one hour, on 28 May, 2006. Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter On 04-Oct-25 07:01, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Thinking of Internet at Sea, there is also "Internet in the Air" (there > is also "Internet in automobiles", which has some similar issues.) > > Several years back we did some work with the FAA and Boeing who were > trying to figure out how to improve air traffic control over the > mid-Pacific.? At that time there was not solid voice connectivity to > aircraft way out in the middle of the Pacific. (There were some lower > frequency radios that could do the job, much of the time, but they were > not particularly favored.) > > We put modified Cisco routers and other gear onto some commercial > trans-Pacific aircraft and played.? Because pilots are used to > push-to-talk systems and long response times, we could cache voice > spurts and interleave those with other traffic.? That gave us a lot of > flexibility about adding things like redundancy in case of RF noise. > > We began our experiments with geo-synch satellites.? We intended to move > to low earth orbit satellites, and then aircraft-to-aircraft relays > (with each airplane acting as an ever-moving IP router) but we ran out > of funding.? (It can be expensive working with trans-oceanic capable > aircraft.) > > For pilots the geo-synch links worked.? (I wanted to experiment with > tokenized voice like what had been done earlier at SDC for > communications with certain kinds of manned undersea vehicles. ATC > communications are highly stylized with a small core vocabulary.? This > would have allowed common words to be converted to nice short tokens. > The voice of a given speaker would not be reproduced accurately, but the > words would be synthetically generated at the receiving end and > generally were rather more clear to the listener than typical ATC voice.) > > The geo-synch path worked wasn't so great for passengers.? As usual a > lot of onboard caching helped. > > By-the-way, one of the lessons I took from the DARPA Robotics Challenge > (I worked on that for several years) is that we networking people can > learn a lot from the undersea sound/communications people at places at > MBARI and Woods Hole.? I was amazed at how they were able to pull a > usable signal from a very noisy channel even without forward error > correction. > > (On the geosync system we were using access was moderated via a ground > station in Texas.? One got to that moderator using Aloha style access. > The moderator came back with a time slot (usually a few hundred > milliseconds beginning at a specified time.)? So, apart from the need > for well synchronized clocks on the aircraft the typical access time to > the main channel could be several seconds.? Again, that was OK for the > pilots, but not for passengers.) > > There are, of course, issues that are too often overlooked when using a > single bent-pipe link via a geosync satellite, such as solar blanking > (when either the satellite transits the face of the sun from the point > of the view of the sending or receiving ground station or when the > satellite's view of a ground station is blinded because or a reflection > of the sun off of the earth.? At that time tracking low earth satellites > from a moving platform was not well developed - At Sun we had designed > some highly portable antenna capabilities to track low earth satellites > from Steve Robert's bicycle, but for that project we were aiming only at > about 32kbits/second, which is OK, but marginal, for non-tokenized voice. > > I of course suggested a technology we created on the Interop Show net > back in 1998: "Gaganet", trans-relativistic networking: > > https://www.cavebear.com/cb_catalog/techno/gaganet/ > > (Some people actually believe that this was real, and not a joke.) > > ? ? ? ? --karl-- > > > > From gbuday.irtf at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 13:05:12 2025 From: gbuday.irtf at gmail.com (Gergely Buday) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 21:05:12 +0100 Subject: [ih] Internet in the Air: Was Re: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <2757c8d7-7c93-471a-8d9b-32187dd0bc0a@gmail.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> <5b424221-b47b-4913-ad6a-0f58233b1d11@iwl.com> <2757c8d7-7c93-471a-8d9b-32187dd0bc0a@gmail.com> Message-ID: What is the reason for not having general Internet access on planes? A technical or a security reason? - Gergely A sexta, 3/10/2025, 21:01, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> escreveu: > Implementation of RFC 1149 preceded Connexion by Boeing by about 5 years. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers > > I still have my first receipt from Connexion by Boeing - $9.95 for one > hour, on 28 May, 2006. > > Regards/Ng? mihi > Brian Carpenter > > On 04-Oct-25 07:01, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > Thinking of Internet at Sea, there is also "Internet in the Air" (there > > is also "Internet in automobiles", which has some similar issues.) > > > > Several years back we did some work with the FAA and Boeing who were > > trying to figure out how to improve air traffic control over the > > mid-Pacific. At that time there was not solid voice connectivity to > > aircraft way out in the middle of the Pacific. (There were some lower > > frequency radios that could do the job, much of the time, but they were > > not particularly favored.) > > > > We put modified Cisco routers and other gear onto some commercial > > trans-Pacific aircraft and played. Because pilots are used to > > push-to-talk systems and long response times, we could cache voice > > spurts and interleave those with other traffic. That gave us a lot of > > flexibility about adding things like redundancy in case of RF noise. > > > > We began our experiments with geo-synch satellites. We intended to move > > to low earth orbit satellites, and then aircraft-to-aircraft relays > > (with each airplane acting as an ever-moving IP router) but we ran out > > of funding. (It can be expensive working with trans-oceanic capable > > aircraft.) > > > > For pilots the geo-synch links worked. (I wanted to experiment with > > tokenized voice like what had been done earlier at SDC for > > communications with certain kinds of manned undersea vehicles. ATC > > communications are highly stylized with a small core vocabulary. This > > would have allowed common words to be converted to nice short tokens. > > The voice of a given speaker would not be reproduced accurately, but the > > words would be synthetically generated at the receiving end and > > generally were rather more clear to the listener than typical ATC voice.) > > > > The geo-synch path worked wasn't so great for passengers. As usual a > > lot of onboard caching helped. > > > > By-the-way, one of the lessons I took from the DARPA Robotics Challenge > > (I worked on that for several years) is that we networking people can > > learn a lot from the undersea sound/communications people at places at > > MBARI and Woods Hole. I was amazed at how they were able to pull a > > usable signal from a very noisy channel even without forward error > > correction. > > > > (On the geosync system we were using access was moderated via a ground > > station in Texas. One got to that moderator using Aloha style access. > > The moderator came back with a time slot (usually a few hundred > > milliseconds beginning at a specified time.) So, apart from the need > > for well synchronized clocks on the aircraft the typical access time to > > the main channel could be several seconds. Again, that was OK for the > > pilots, but not for passengers.) > > > > There are, of course, issues that are too often overlooked when using a > > single bent-pipe link via a geosync satellite, such as solar blanking > > (when either the satellite transits the face of the sun from the point > > of the view of the sending or receiving ground station or when the > > satellite's view of a ground station is blinded because or a reflection > > of the sun off of the earth. At that time tracking low earth satellites > > from a moving platform was not well developed - At Sun we had designed > > some highly portable antenna capabilities to track low earth satellites > > from Steve Robert's bicycle, but for that project we were aiming only at > > about 32kbits/second, which is OK, but marginal, for non-tokenized voice. > > > > I of course suggested a technology we created on the Interop Show net > > back in 1998: "Gaganet", trans-relativistic networking: > > > > https://www.cavebear.com/cb_catalog/techno/gaganet/ > > > > (Some people actually believe that this was real, and not a joke.) > > > > --karl-- > > > > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 13:45:25 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 20:45:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Internet in the Air: Was Re: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <2757c8d7-7c93-471a-8d9b-32187dd0bc0a@gmail.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <2B3C5E38-BB28-45F5-A7F2-96BFE66A1533@pch.net> <5b424221-b47b-4913-ad6a-0f58233b1d11@iwl.com> <2757c8d7-7c93-471a-8d9b-32187dd0bc0a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <844743352.3754260.1759524325233@mail.yahoo.com> Then there was? the SAC experiment (1986).? I think a sun workstation on the plane counts as a host and we did maintain connectivity? when feasible. This last experiment was designed to show an airborne mobile host. barbara On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 01:01:23 PM PDT, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: Implementation of RFC 1149 preceded Connexion by Boeing by about 5 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_over_Avian_Carriers I still have my first receipt from Connexion by Boeing - $9.95 for one hour, on 28 May, 2006. Regards/Ng? mihi ? ? Brian Carpenter On 04-Oct-25 07:01, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Thinking of Internet at Sea, there is also "Internet in the Air" (there > is also "Internet in automobiles", which has some similar issues.) > > Several years back we did some work with the FAA and Boeing who were > trying to figure out how to improve air traffic control over the > mid-Pacific.? At that time there was not solid voice connectivity to > aircraft way out in the middle of the Pacific. (There were some lower > frequency radios that could do the job, much of the time, but they were > not particularly favored.) > > We put modified Cisco routers and other gear onto some commercial > trans-Pacific aircraft and played.? Because pilots are used to > push-to-talk systems and long response times, we could cache voice > spurts and interleave those with other traffic.? That gave us a lot of > flexibility about adding things like redundancy in case of RF noise. > > We began our experiments with geo-synch satellites.? We intended to move > to low earth orbit satellites, and then aircraft-to-aircraft relays > (with each airplane acting as an ever-moving IP router) but we ran out > of funding.? (It can be expensive working with trans-oceanic capable > aircraft.) > > For pilots the geo-synch links worked.? (I wanted to experiment with > tokenized voice like what had been done earlier at SDC for > communications with certain kinds of manned undersea vehicles. ATC > communications are highly stylized with a small core vocabulary.? This > would have allowed common words to be converted to nice short tokens. > The voice of a given speaker would not be reproduced accurately, but the > words would be synthetically generated at the receiving end and > generally were rather more clear to the listener than typical ATC voice.) > > The geo-synch path worked wasn't so great for passengers.? As usual a > lot of onboard caching helped. > > By-the-way, one of the lessons I took from the DARPA Robotics Challenge > (I worked on that for several years) is that we networking people can > learn a lot from the undersea sound/communications people at places at > MBARI and Woods Hole.? I was amazed at how they were able to pull a > usable signal from a very noisy channel even without forward error > correction. > > (On the geosync system we were using access was moderated via a ground > station in Texas.? One got to that moderator using Aloha style access. > The moderator came back with a time slot (usually a few hundred > milliseconds beginning at a specified time.)? So, apart from the need > for well synchronized clocks on the aircraft the typical access time to > the main channel could be several seconds.? Again, that was OK for the > pilots, but not for passengers.) > > There are, of course, issues that are too often overlooked when using a > single bent-pipe link via a geosync satellite, such as solar blanking > (when either the satellite transits the face of the sun from the point > of the view of the sending or receiving ground station or when the > satellite's view of a ground station is blinded because or a reflection > of the sun off of the earth.? At that time tracking low earth satellites > from a moving platform was not well developed - At Sun we had designed > some highly portable antenna capabilities to track low earth satellites > from Steve Robert's bicycle, but for that project we were aiming only at > about 32kbits/second, which is OK, but marginal, for non-tokenized voice. > > I of course suggested a technology we created on the Interop Show net > back in 1998: "Gaganet", trans-relativistic networking: > > https://www.cavebear.com/cb_catalog/techno/gaganet/ > > (Some people actually believe that this was real, and not a joke.) > >? ? ? ? ? --karl-- > > > > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Oct 3 14:16:05 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 14:16:05 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> Message-ID: <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> Michael's suggestion of near-port traffic increasing with people planning their shore time sounds reasonable to me.? There's a lot of possible "social" influences on traffic patterns.?? I remember there was one net we installed (for a credit card processor IIRC) where it was possible to see such effects - e.g., bursts of traffic during ad breaks in the Super Bowl. I'm curious about the history preceding today's world.? Back in the early 1980s, the Internet reached a "cruise ship", possibly the first such maritime connection on the Internet.? The ship involved was the USS Carl Vinson - the huge aircraft carrier that the US Navy used as a testbed for new technology "in the field."?? The project was called MATNET - Mobile Access Terminal Network, with nodes on shore and on the ship.? The technology was a derivative of SATNET - the satellite network with linked the US and Europe over Intelsat-IV.?? IIRC, MATNET used FLTSATCOM satellite resources. MATNET was the next step in the "pipeline" from research to operational use within the US (and probably others such as UK) Navy.? Various Packet Radio projects filled a similar pipeline for terrestrial use in the Army.?? I'm not sure but I think another set of projects involved the Air Force; I recall one meeting at SAC HQ in Nebraska to work out some logistics for a testbed involving air assets, including the Looking Glass.?? The vision extended to some future combination of Packet Radio and Satellite technologies, i.e., "Packet Radio in the Sky", with terrestrial nodes talking to an overhead satellite, and satellites talking to each other to get datagrams to their destinations. Some information about MATNET is here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA122596.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA222356.pdf Now that we have systems like Starlink, it seeme we may now have "Packet Radio in the Sky" -- but I don't know the details of how Starlink actually works. So, my question for History is "How did we get from MATNET and Packet Radio to the Internet systems that are operational today?" E.g., did MATNET and/or Packet Radio have any influence on today's technology??? How did that happen?? Perhaps the protocols and/or algorithms migrated and ended up in today's systems?? Perhaps the people involved migrated and took their experiences with them??? Or perhaps today's systems were built by a new generation who never even heard of those systems from the 1980s? BBN reorganized (frequently) and I lost contact with the research work after mid-1983.?? I know how the ARPANET migrated to become the DDN.?? And TCP/IP which annihilated all of its competitors.?? But Packet Radio??? MATNET? Anybody know what happened to the other networking technologies that ARPA drove into pipelines to field deployment, and what happened after those testbeds??? How much of today's Internet technology (such as Starlink) contains ARPA DNA? /Jack Haverty PS - It occurred to me that Detectives "follow the money" to investigate crimes.?? Investors "follow the people" to place their bets.? I wonder if Internet Historians have to "follow the code". On 10/3/25 10:26, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Some years back (circa 2010?) we also took a cruise and were annoyed > by how slow was access to the net. > > So we made a video about it: > > https://vimeo.com/815203660 > > ? ? ? ? --karl-- > > On 10/3/25 2:05 AM, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >> From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >> >>> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships >>> works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. >>> When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing >>> is unreliable.?? My speculation is that traffic loads when near a >>> port include all the land-based users and the network may be >>> overwhelmed.? But that's just speculation, I have no data. >>> >> I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these >> last few years.? I don't know when the Internet started becoming >> available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on >> Holland America.? Simply put, the service was awful and expensive >> regardless if the ship was in port or not.? It used a geostationary >> satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball.? When the >> ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the >> minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive >> web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it.? In 2010, >> iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most >> of your money waiting. >> >> Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better.? >> 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer >> charged a per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary >> link and you still had to "log on" via a captive portal.? We were >> able to have absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time.? I >> was amazed because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the >> delay was unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and >> traceroute that we were actually using a geostationary link and not >> Starlink! >> >> In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have >> Starlink.? They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae >> mounted high up near one of the stacks (6 on each side).? They run 12 >> separate Starlink connections.? I am going to describe what Cunard >> does but I suspect they are all similar.? Cunard runs a VPN which >> bonds together the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down >> the packet is sent out any antenna.? (I don't know which VPN they use >> nor do I know how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, >> sorry!)? The VPN is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami >> Florida, US depending on where the ship is (they change over midway >> across the Atlantic).? They run something like bufferbloat to share >> the b/w more fairly.? They also run a firewall where they block quite >> a few sites.? I have had to ask them to unblock things which they >> have kindly done. >> >> I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that >> they may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange >> for being able to capture that market.? I don't know for sure >> though.? I do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink >> now.? My only gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want >> 2 devices, so for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to >> use whatsapp to find one another on-board, it's well overpriced.? >> They charge about USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price >> where for the cost of 2 devices you can have up to 4. >> >> The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports. They >> continue to use the satellite network even in port.? This is likely >> because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi >> they would quickly saturate it.? It's also likely because several of >> the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security >> reasons they want that going over their VPN.? I have not noticed much >> difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, >> if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship.? I >> suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people >> saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing >> research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and >> such.? I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other >> than maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with >> other Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in >> the sky. >> >> Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years.? >> Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins.? >> Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would >> literally seize up.? I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to >> a firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately >> it was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would >> have had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it >> would have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. >> >> Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had >> separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime >> Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies. This is >> only turned on when at sea.? At port, they turn off the maritime >> telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. >> >> I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and >> separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet >> connection.?? Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for >> me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when >> on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has >> been plenty.? However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and >> especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive.? I have talked >> with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it >> unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone >> bills!? Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to >> easy to just use it because it works. >> >> Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but >> as far as I am aware this is? not hooked up to some general system >> for the public.? It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms >> for the bridge. >> >> All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a >> passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech >> people on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping >> and traceroute.? Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or >> satellite networking industry myself. >> >> I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone >> on this list knows more.? It would also be interesting to see a >> thread of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows >> about that. >> >> Michael Grant -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 16:25:53 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 23:25:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> I am not going to try to answer Jack's message? ?but I am glad to see he brought up MATNET.? I was going to ask about that.? SRI? ?had a contract with the Navy to implement a gateway in Ada; and design, implement, and test a way to support ships, subs, etc when they were under EMCON (emission control) - an early application of delay tolerant networking.? I was working on the gateway.? Unfortunately something changed within the navy so that our contract was cancelled early. However I was tagged slightly later to support installing a couple Sun? workstations on board the Carl Vinson to support them looking at an application I think another group at SRI had developed.? I assume the application used MATNET in some way (? I think the workstations used Ethernet to get to the rest of the onboard? network).? One guy in our group did remain on board to support the equipment when the ship left Alameda for Hawaii (He got off the ship in Hawaii). At that point in time,? women weren't even allowed on board but they made an exception for me and one other person.? They also gave us a great tour of the ship. This was probably in 1984 or slightly later Another somewhat? related question is what other impact having these networks had on application development, especially for the military. I am trying to see if I can untangle the history of an air load planning system (ALPS)? that SRI did. I think it may be related to the testbed at Fort Bragg that included packet radio. It may have also been an early use of AI (or whatever was thought of as AI in those days). barbara On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 02:16:18 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Michael's suggestion of near-port traffic increasing with people planning their shore time sounds reasonable to me.? There's a lot of possible "social" influences on traffic patterns.?? I remember there was one net we installed (for a credit card processor IIRC) where it was possible to see such effects - e.g., bursts of traffic during ad breaks in the Super Bowl. I'm curious about the history preceding today's world.? Back in the early 1980s, the Internet reached a "cruise ship", possibly the first such maritime connection on the Internet.? The ship involved was the USS Carl Vinson - the huge aircraft carrier that the US Navy used as a testbed for new technology "in the field."?? The project was called MATNET - Mobile Access Terminal Network, with nodes on shore and on the ship.? The technology was a derivative of SATNET - the satellite network with linked the US and Europe over Intelsat-IV.?? IIRC, MATNET used FLTSATCOM satellite resources. MATNET was the next step in the "pipeline" from research to operational use within the US (and probably others such as UK) Navy.? Various Packet Radio projects filled a similar pipeline for terrestrial use in the Army.?? I'm not sure but I think another set of projects involved the Air Force; I recall one meeting at SAC HQ in Nebraska to work out some logistics for a testbed involving air assets, including the Looking Glass.?? The vision extended to some future combination of Packet Radio and Satellite technologies, i.e., "Packet Radio in the Sky", with terrestrial nodes talking to an overhead satellite, and satellites talking to each other to get datagrams to their destinations. Some information about MATNET is here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA122596.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA222356.pdf Now that we have systems like Starlink, it seeme we may now have "Packet Radio in the Sky" -- but I don't know the details of how Starlink actually works. So, my question for History is "How did we get from MATNET and Packet Radio to the Internet systems that are operational today?" E.g., did MATNET and/or Packet Radio have any influence on today's technology??? How did that happen?? Perhaps the protocols and/or algorithms migrated and ended up in today's systems?? Perhaps the people involved migrated and took their experiences with them??? Or perhaps today's systems were built by a new generation who never even heard of those systems from the 1980s? BBN reorganized (frequently) and I lost contact with the research work after mid-1983.?? I know how the ARPANET migrated to become the DDN.?? And TCP/IP which annihilated all of its competitors.?? But Packet Radio??? MATNET? Anybody know what happened to the other networking technologies that ARPA drove into pipelines to field deployment, and what happened after those testbeds??? How much of today's Internet technology (such as Starlink) contains ARPA DNA? /Jack Haverty PS - It occurred to me that Detectives "follow the money" to investigate crimes.?? Investors "follow the people" to place their bets.? I wonder if Internet Historians have to "follow the code". On 10/3/25 10:26, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Some years back (circa 2010?) we also took a cruise and were annoyed > by how slow was access to the net. > > So we made a video about it: > > https://vimeo.com/815203660 > > ? ? ? ? --karl-- > > On 10/3/25 2:05 AM, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >> From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >> >>> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships >>> works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. >>> When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing >>> is unreliable.?? My speculation is that traffic loads when near a >>> port include all the land-based users and the network may be >>> overwhelmed.? But that's just speculation, I have no data. >>> >> I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these >> last few years.? I don't know when the Internet started becoming >> available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on >> Holland America.? Simply put, the service was awful and expensive >> regardless if the ship was in port or not.? It used a geostationary >> satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball.? When the >> ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the >> minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive >> web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it.? In 2010, >> iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most >> of your money waiting. >> >> Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better.? >> 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer >> charged a per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary >> link and you still had to "log on" via a captive portal.? We were >> able to have absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time.? I >> was amazed because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the >> delay was unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and >> traceroute that we were actually using a geostationary link and not >> Starlink! >> >> In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have >> Starlink.? They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae >> mounted high up near one of the stacks (6 on each side).? They run 12 >> separate Starlink connections.? I am going to describe what Cunard >> does but I suspect they are all similar.? Cunard runs a VPN which >> bonds together the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down >> the packet is sent out any antenna.? (I don't know which VPN they use >> nor do I know how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, >> sorry!)? The VPN is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami >> Florida, US depending on where the ship is (they change over midway >> across the Atlantic).? They run something like bufferbloat to share >> the b/w more fairly.? They also run a firewall where they block quite >> a few sites.? I have had to ask them to unblock things which they >> have kindly done. >> >> I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that >> they may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange >> for being able to capture that market.? I don't know for sure >> though.? I do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink >> now.? My only gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want >> 2 devices, so for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to >> use whatsapp to find one another on-board, it's well overpriced.? >> They charge about USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price >> where for the cost of 2 devices you can have up to 4. >> >> The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports. They >> continue to use the satellite network even in port.? This is likely >> because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi >> they would quickly saturate it.? It's also likely because several of >> the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security >> reasons they want that going over their VPN.? I have not noticed much >> difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, >> if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship.? I >> suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people >> saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing >> research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and >> such.? I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other >> than maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with >> other Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in >> the sky. >> >> Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years.? >> Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins.? >> Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would >> literally seize up.? I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to >> a firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately >> it was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would >> have had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it >> would have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. >> >> Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had >> separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime >> Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies. This is >> only turned on when at sea.? At port, they turn off the maritime >> telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. >> >> I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and >> separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet >> connection.?? Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for >> me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when >> on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has >> been plenty.? However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and >> especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive.? I have talked >> with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it >> unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone >> bills!? Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to >> easy to just use it because it works. >> >> Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but >> as far as I am aware this is? not hooked up to some general system >> for the public.? It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms >> for the bridge. >> >> All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a >> passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech >> people on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping >> and traceroute.? Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or >> satellite networking industry myself. >> >> I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone >> on this list knows more.? It would also be interesting to see a >> thread of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows >> about that. >> >> Michael Grant -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 16:57:59 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 23:57:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> Oh I probably should have mentioned an application example that I think has a pretty clear link from early testbed research to wider use.? The earlier work was originally called TerraVision and was done in the AI group at SRI.? It used the MAGIC testbed (ARPA gigabit testbed).? I was the networking POC for SRI.? I know I have discussed this 3-D? visualization application before on the list and the problems with claims regarding who did what. Most people now know about Google Earth. barbara On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 04:26:09 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: I am not going to try to answer Jack's message? ?but I am glad to see he brought up MATNET.? I was going to ask about that.? SRI? ?had a contract with the Navy to implement a gateway in Ada; and design, implement, and test a way to support ships, subs, etc when they were under EMCON (emission control) - an early application of delay tolerant networking.? I was working on the gateway.? Unfortunately something changed within the navy so that our contract was cancelled early. However I was tagged slightly later to support installing a couple Sun? workstations on board the Carl Vinson to support them looking at an application I think another group at SRI had developed.? I assume the application used MATNET in some way (? I think the workstations used Ethernet to get to the rest of the onboard? network).? One guy in our group did remain on board to support the equipment when the ship left Alameda for Hawaii (He got off the ship in Hawaii). At that point in time,? women weren't even allowed on board but they made an exception for me and one other person.? They also gave us a great tour of the ship. This was probably in 1984 or slightly later Another somewhat? related question is what other impact having these networks had on application development, especially for the military. I am trying to see if I can untangle the history of an air load planning system (ALPS)? that SRI did. I think it may be related to the testbed at Fort Bragg that included packet radio. It may have also been an early use of AI (or whatever was thought of as AI in those days). barbara ? ? On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 02:16:18 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? Michael's suggestion of near-port traffic increasing with people planning their shore time sounds reasonable to me.? There's a lot of possible "social" influences on traffic patterns.?? I remember there was one net we installed (for a credit card processor IIRC) where it was possible to see such effects - e.g., bursts of traffic during ad breaks in the Super Bowl. I'm curious about the history preceding today's world.? Back in the early 1980s, the Internet reached a "cruise ship", possibly the first such maritime connection on the Internet.? The ship involved was the USS Carl Vinson - the huge aircraft carrier that the US Navy used as a testbed for new technology "in the field."?? The project was called MATNET - Mobile Access Terminal Network, with nodes on shore and on the ship.? The technology was a derivative of SATNET - the satellite network with linked the US and Europe over Intelsat-IV.?? IIRC, MATNET used FLTSATCOM satellite resources. MATNET was the next step in the "pipeline" from research to operational use within the US (and probably others such as UK) Navy.? Various Packet Radio projects filled a similar pipeline for terrestrial use in the Army.?? I'm not sure but I think another set of projects involved the Air Force; I recall one meeting at SAC HQ in Nebraska to work out some logistics for a testbed involving air assets, including the Looking Glass.?? The vision extended to some future combination of Packet Radio and Satellite technologies, i.e., "Packet Radio in the Sky", with terrestrial nodes talking to an overhead satellite, and satellites talking to each other to get datagrams to their destinations. Some information about MATNET is here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA122596.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA222356.pdf Now that we have systems like Starlink, it seeme we may now have "Packet Radio in the Sky" -- but I don't know the details of how Starlink actually works. So, my question for History is "How did we get from MATNET and Packet Radio to the Internet systems that are operational today?" E.g., did MATNET and/or Packet Radio have any influence on today's technology??? How did that happen?? Perhaps the protocols and/or algorithms migrated and ended up in today's systems?? Perhaps the people involved migrated and took their experiences with them??? Or perhaps today's systems were built by a new generation who never even heard of those systems from the 1980s? BBN reorganized (frequently) and I lost contact with the research work after mid-1983.?? I know how the ARPANET migrated to become the DDN.?? And TCP/IP which annihilated all of its competitors.?? But Packet Radio??? MATNET? Anybody know what happened to the other networking technologies that ARPA drove into pipelines to field deployment, and what happened after those testbeds??? How much of today's Internet technology (such as Starlink) contains ARPA DNA? /Jack Haverty PS - It occurred to me that Detectives "follow the money" to investigate crimes.?? Investors "follow the people" to place their bets.? I wonder if Internet Historians have to "follow the code". On 10/3/25 10:26, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Some years back (circa 2010?) we also took a cruise and were annoyed > by how slow was access to the net. > > So we made a video about it: > > https://vimeo.com/815203660 > > ? ? ? ? --karl-- > > On 10/3/25 2:05 AM, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >> From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >> >>> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships >>> works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. >>> When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing >>> is unreliable.?? My speculation is that traffic loads when near a >>> port include all the land-based users and the network may be >>> overwhelmed.? But that's just speculation, I have no data. >>> >> I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these >> last few years.? I don't know when the Internet started becoming >> available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on >> Holland America.? Simply put, the service was awful and expensive >> regardless if the ship was in port or not.? It used a geostationary >> satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball.? When the >> ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the >> minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive >> web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it.? In 2010, >> iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most >> of your money waiting. >> >> Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better.? >> 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer >> charged a per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary >> link and you still had to "log on" via a captive portal.? We were >> able to have absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time.? I >> was amazed because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the >> delay was unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and >> traceroute that we were actually using a geostationary link and not >> Starlink! >> >> In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have >> Starlink.? They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae >> mounted high up near one of the stacks (6 on each side).? They run 12 >> separate Starlink connections.? I am going to describe what Cunard >> does but I suspect they are all similar.? Cunard runs a VPN which >> bonds together the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down >> the packet is sent out any antenna.? (I don't know which VPN they use >> nor do I know how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, >> sorry!)? The VPN is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami >> Florida, US depending on where the ship is (they change over midway >> across the Atlantic).? They run something like bufferbloat to share >> the b/w more fairly.? They also run a firewall where they block quite >> a few sites.? I have had to ask them to unblock things which they >> have kindly done. >> >> I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that >> they may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange >> for being able to capture that market.? I don't know for sure >> though.? I do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink >> now.? My only gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want >> 2 devices, so for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to >> use whatsapp to find one another on-board, it's well overpriced.? >> They charge about USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price >> where for the cost of 2 devices you can have up to 4. >> >> The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports. They >> continue to use the satellite network even in port.? This is likely >> because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi >> they would quickly saturate it.? It's also likely because several of >> the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security >> reasons they want that going over their VPN.? I have not noticed much >> difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, >> if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship.? I >> suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people >> saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing >> research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and >> such.? I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other >> than maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with >> other Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in >> the sky. >> >> Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years.? >> Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins.? >> Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would >> literally seize up.? I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to >> a firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately >> it was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would >> have had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it >> would have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. >> >> Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had >> separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime >> Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies. This is >> only turned on when at sea.? At port, they turn off the maritime >> telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. >> >> I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and >> separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet >> connection.?? Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for >> me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when >> on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has >> been plenty.? However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and >> especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive.? I have talked >> with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it >> unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone >> bills!? Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to >> easy to just use it because it works. >> >> Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but >> as far as I am aware this is? not hooked up to some general system >> for the public.? It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms >> for the bridge. >> >> All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a >> passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech >> people on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping >> and traceroute.? Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or >> satellite networking industry myself. >> >> I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone >> on this list knows more.? It would also be interesting to see a >> thread of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows >> about that. >> >> Michael Grant -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From agmalis at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 17:26:14 2025 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Fri, 3 Oct 2025 20:26:14 -0400 Subject: [ih] Single Malt Scotch and the history of the net Re: DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: References: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> <1502383186.2998117.1759362362960@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was a colleague of Mike's at MITRE, and thus got to discuss the topic in person! I got some good pointers for duty-free shopping when on vacation or on a business trip in the UK. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Oct 3, 2025 at 10:29?AM Bill Ricker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On Wed, Oct 1, 2025 at 7:46?PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > The role of Single Malt Scotch in the history of the net is a topic that > deserves exploration > > One aspect of that is that MALTS-L was a very early mailing list not > directly responsive to the (d)ARPA-net charter. > (I suspect SF-lovers was in fact earlier but can neither confirm nor > refute. Yet. It moved hosts repeatedly so full archives are unavailable.) > > My mentor in such matter, Mike Padlipsky, aka MAP, was an early if not > founding member of MALTS-L, and would stop in Scotland when returning from > European sittings of IRG to do "research" at the Aviemore "Cairngorm Whisky > Centre" (a Scotch Library, alas since closed). Before Sir Tim invented a > Web for Web Logs to be abbreviated to 'blogs', Mike was effectively > blogging his Single Malt Scotch search on MALTS-L (by email). > > Already in the 1970s one of the early network implementors, or "Old Network > Boys" as MAP punned, > "had dropped out and bought a 'mom and pop' tree nursery in Boring [OR] > with his then-new bride. He was also one of the two other Old Network Boys > with whom I'd had my/our first tastes of Laphroaig, from around 1 A.M. to 4 > A.M. after a meeting at SRI a few years earlier to do something vaguely > historical, probably refine the File Transfer Protocol" > is central to the prologue of his 40 year quest for the A&N Glen Grant MOHM > (and whatever was second best). > > AFAIK MAP never wrote the full tale, so I've collected his "Prolegomena", > his progress reports, and my own telling of the tragic phyrric denouement. > (Along with his database of tasting notes, and the tasting list for his > wake, catered from his own cellar.) > > https://n1vux.github.io/articles/MAP/Malt/index.html > > (From there you can also go up to his technical bibliography and his > ~first~ > second ever thesis on SciFi as Lit Crit.) > > As MAP would have said, > Muted Cheers > > Bill Ricker, Boston > Literary and Spiritous Estate of Michael A Padlipsky > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 19:13:56 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 15:13:56 +1300 Subject: [ih] OT: Oceanic Internet Message-ID: <55ac7e15-7387-488d-90c4-bed17d467533@gmail.com> Today's XKCD seems to mesh with recent topics here: https://xkcd.com/3150 Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Oct 3 20:59:53 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 03:59:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1915927611.3837130.1759550393874@mail.yahoo.com> I think it is hard (almost impossible?) to know how much technology (like protocols or algorithms) is actually transferred into products or something unless someone reveals the use or impact. TerraVision may serve as an example in the application space of how messy things can get when someone else produces a similar thing. Unfortunately my experience with TG is even if you make an acknowledgement a condition of use and that is stated upfront, people don't do it.? For example I have run into at least one? paper on the web where I am pretty positive tg had to have been used but there was no discussion of what they used to get the results. TG lineage was recognizable to me because of the output presented.? barbara On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 04:58:10 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: Oh I probably should have mentioned an application example that I think has a pretty clear link from early testbed research to wider use.? The earlier work was originally called TerraVision and was done in the AI group at SRI.? It used the MAGIC testbed (ARPA gigabit testbed).? I was the networking POC for SRI.? I know I have discussed this 3-D? visualization application before on the list and the problems with claims regarding who did what. Most people now know about Google Earth. barbara ? ? On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 04:26:09 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:? ? I am not going to try to answer Jack's message? ?but I am glad to see he brought up MATNET.? I was going to ask about that.? SRI? ?had a contract with the Navy to implement a gateway in Ada; and design, implement, and test a way to support ships, subs, etc when they were under EMCON (emission control) - an early application of delay tolerant networking.? I was working on the gateway.? Unfortunately something changed within the navy so that our contract was cancelled early. However I was tagged slightly later to support installing a couple Sun? workstations on board the Carl Vinson to support them looking at an application I think another group at SRI had developed.? I assume the application used MATNET in some way (? I think the workstations used Ethernet to get to the rest of the onboard? network).? One guy in our group did remain on board to support the equipment when the ship left Alameda for Hawaii (He got off the ship in Hawaii). At that point in time,? women weren't even allowed on board but they made an exception for me and one other person.? They also gave us a great tour of the ship. This was probably in 1984 or slightly later Another somewhat? related question is what other impact having these networks had on application development, especially for the military. I am trying to see if I can untangle the history of an air load planning system (ALPS)? that SRI did. I think it may be related to the testbed at Fort Bragg that included packet radio. It may have also been an early use of AI (or whatever was thought of as AI in those days). barbara ? ? On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 02:16:18 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? Michael's suggestion of near-port traffic increasing with people planning their shore time sounds reasonable to me.? There's a lot of possible "social" influences on traffic patterns.?? I remember there was one net we installed (for a credit card processor IIRC) where it was possible to see such effects - e.g., bursts of traffic during ad breaks in the Super Bowl. I'm curious about the history preceding today's world.? Back in the early 1980s, the Internet reached a "cruise ship", possibly the first such maritime connection on the Internet.? The ship involved was the USS Carl Vinson - the huge aircraft carrier that the US Navy used as a testbed for new technology "in the field."?? The project was called MATNET - Mobile Access Terminal Network, with nodes on shore and on the ship.? The technology was a derivative of SATNET - the satellite network with linked the US and Europe over Intelsat-IV.?? IIRC, MATNET used FLTSATCOM satellite resources. MATNET was the next step in the "pipeline" from research to operational use within the US (and probably others such as UK) Navy.? Various Packet Radio projects filled a similar pipeline for terrestrial use in the Army.?? I'm not sure but I think another set of projects involved the Air Force; I recall one meeting at SAC HQ in Nebraska to work out some logistics for a testbed involving air assets, including the Looking Glass.?? The vision extended to some future combination of Packet Radio and Satellite technologies, i.e., "Packet Radio in the Sky", with terrestrial nodes talking to an overhead satellite, and satellites talking to each other to get datagrams to their destinations. Some information about MATNET is here: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA122596.pdf https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA222356.pdf Now that we have systems like Starlink, it seeme we may now have "Packet Radio in the Sky" -- but I don't know the details of how Starlink actually works. So, my question for History is "How did we get from MATNET and Packet Radio to the Internet systems that are operational today?" E.g., did MATNET and/or Packet Radio have any influence on today's technology??? How did that happen?? Perhaps the protocols and/or algorithms migrated and ended up in today's systems?? Perhaps the people involved migrated and took their experiences with them??? Or perhaps today's systems were built by a new generation who never even heard of those systems from the 1980s? BBN reorganized (frequently) and I lost contact with the research work after mid-1983.?? I know how the ARPANET migrated to become the DDN.?? And TCP/IP which annihilated all of its competitors.?? But Packet Radio??? MATNET? Anybody know what happened to the other networking technologies that ARPA drove into pipelines to field deployment, and what happened after those testbeds??? How much of today's Internet technology (such as Starlink) contains ARPA DNA? /Jack Haverty PS - It occurred to me that Detectives "follow the money" to investigate crimes.?? Investors "follow the people" to place their bets.? I wonder if Internet Historians have to "follow the code". On 10/3/25 10:26, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Some years back (circa 2010?) we also took a cruise and were annoyed > by how slow was access to the net. > > So we made a video about it: > > https://vimeo.com/815203660 > > ? ? ? ? --karl-- > > On 10/3/25 2:05 AM, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: >> From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" >> >>> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships >>> works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. >>> When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing >>> is unreliable.?? My speculation is that traffic loads when near a >>> port include all the land-based users and the network may be >>> overwhelmed.? But that's just speculation, I have no data. >>> >> I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these >> last few years.? I don't know when the Internet started becoming >> available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on >> Holland America.? Simply put, the service was awful and expensive >> regardless if the ship was in port or not.? It used a geostationary >> satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball.? When the >> ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the >> minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive >> web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it.? In 2010, >> iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most >> of your money waiting. >> >> Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better.? >> 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer >> charged a per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary >> link and you still had to "log on" via a captive portal.? We were >> able to have absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time.? I >> was amazed because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the >> delay was unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and >> traceroute that we were actually using a geostationary link and not >> Starlink! >> >> In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have >> Starlink.? They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae >> mounted high up near one of the stacks (6 on each side).? They run 12 >> separate Starlink connections.? I am going to describe what Cunard >> does but I suspect they are all similar.? Cunard runs a VPN which >> bonds together the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down >> the packet is sent out any antenna.? (I don't know which VPN they use >> nor do I know how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, >> sorry!)? The VPN is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami >> Florida, US depending on where the ship is (they change over midway >> across the Atlantic).? They run something like bufferbloat to share >> the b/w more fairly.? They also run a firewall where they block quite >> a few sites.? I have had to ask them to unblock things which they >> have kindly done. >> >> I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that >> they may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange >> for being able to capture that market.? I don't know for sure >> though.? I do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink >> now.? My only gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want >> 2 devices, so for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to >> use whatsapp to find one another on-board, it's well overpriced.? >> They charge about USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price >> where for the cost of 2 devices you can have up to 4. >> >> The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports. They >> continue to use the satellite network even in port.? This is likely >> because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi >> they would quickly saturate it.? It's also likely because several of >> the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security >> reasons they want that going over their VPN.? I have not noticed much >> difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, >> if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship.? I >> suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people >> saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing >> research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and >> such.? I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other >> than maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with >> other Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in >> the sky. >> >> Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years.? >> Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins.? >> Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would >> literally seize up.? I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to >> a firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately >> it was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would >> have had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it >> would have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. >> >> Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had >> separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime >> Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies. This is >> only turned on when at sea.? At port, they turn off the maritime >> telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. >> >> I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and >> separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet >> connection.?? Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for >> me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when >> on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has >> been plenty.? However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and >> especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive.? I have talked >> with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it >> unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone >> bills!? Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to >> easy to just use it because it works. >> >> Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but >> as far as I am aware this is? not hooked up to some general system >> for the public.? It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms >> for the bridge. >> >> All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a >> passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech >> people on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping >> and traceroute.? Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or >> satellite networking industry myself. >> >> I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone >> on this list knows more.? It would also be interesting to see a >> thread of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows >> about that. >> >> Michael Grant -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Fri Oct 3 23:38:45 2025 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 02:38:45 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: see below re AALPS On Fri, Oct 3, 2025 at 7:26?PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I am not going to try to answer Jack's message but I am glad to see he > brought up MATNET. I was going to ask about that. SRI had a contract > with the Navy to implement a gateway in Ada; and design, implement, and > test a way to support ships, subs, etc when they were under EMCON (emission > control) - an early application of delay tolerant networking. I was > working on the gateway. Unfortunately something changed within the navy so > that our contract was cancelled early. However I was tagged slightly later > to support installing a couple Sun? workstations on board the Carl Vinson > to support them looking at an application I think another group at SRI had > developed. I assume the application used MATNET in some way ( I think the > workstations used Ethernet to get to the rest of the onboard network). > One guy in our group did remain on board to support the equipment when the > ship left Alameda for Hawaii (He got off the ship in Hawaii). At that point > in time, women weren't even allowed on board but they made an exception > for me and one other person. They also gave us a great tour of the ship. > This was probably in 1984 or slightly later > SRI developed an Advanced Airborne Load Planning System to demonstrate the utility of having access to computing power on the Internet while literally on the tarmac at the 18th Airborne Corps. The system could load plan in seconds the entire 18th Airborne using AALPS. Eventually a flyoff was done with the regular load masters and they concluded the system did better than they did. It could also include low altittude air extraction (eg, using a parachute to pull a tank out of the loading bay) and was smart enough to organize the loading to offload the equipment before the pax (passengers) so we didn't drop equipment on the troops. vint > Another somewhat related question is what other impact having these > networks had on application development, especially for the military. I am > trying to see if I can untangle the history of an air load planning system > (ALPS) that SRI did. I think it may be related to the testbed at Fort > Bragg that included packet radio. It may have also been an early use of AI > (or whatever was thought of as AI in those days). > barbara > > On Friday, October 3, 2025 at 02:16:18 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > Michael's suggestion of near-port traffic increasing with people > planning their shore time sounds reasonable to me. There's a lot of > possible "social" influences on traffic patterns. I remember there was > one net we installed (for a credit card processor IIRC) where it was > possible to see such effects - e.g., bursts of traffic during ad breaks > in the Super Bowl. > > I'm curious about the history preceding today's world. Back in the > early 1980s, the Internet reached a "cruise ship", possibly the first > such maritime connection on the Internet. The ship involved was the USS > Carl Vinson - the huge aircraft carrier that the US Navy used as a > testbed for new technology "in the field." The project was called > MATNET - Mobile Access Terminal Network, with nodes on shore and on the > ship. The technology was a derivative of SATNET - the satellite network > with linked the US and Europe over Intelsat-IV. IIRC, MATNET used > FLTSATCOM satellite resources. > > MATNET was the next step in the "pipeline" from research to operational > use within the US (and probably others such as UK) Navy. Various Packet > Radio projects filled a similar pipeline for terrestrial use in the > Army. I'm not sure but I think another set of projects involved the > Air Force; I recall one meeting at SAC HQ in Nebraska to work out some > logistics for a testbed involving air assets, including the Looking > Glass. The vision extended to some future combination of Packet Radio > and Satellite technologies, i.e., "Packet Radio in the Sky", with > terrestrial nodes talking to an overhead satellite, and satellites > talking to each other to get datagrams to their destinations. > > Some information about MATNET is here: > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA122596.pdf > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA222356.pdf > > Now that we have systems like Starlink, it seeme we may now have "Packet > Radio in the Sky" -- but I don't know the details of how Starlink > actually works. > > So, my question for History is "How did we get from MATNET and Packet > Radio to the Internet systems that are operational today?" > > E.g., did MATNET and/or Packet Radio have any influence on today's > technology? How did that happen? Perhaps the protocols and/or > algorithms migrated and ended up in today's systems? Perhaps the people > involved migrated and took their experiences with them? Or perhaps > today's systems were built by a new generation who never even heard of > those systems from the 1980s? > > BBN reorganized (frequently) and I lost contact with the research work > after mid-1983. I know how the ARPANET migrated to become the DDN. > And TCP/IP which annihilated all of its competitors. But Packet > Radio? MATNET? > > Anybody know what happened to the other networking technologies that > ARPA drove into pipelines to field deployment, and what happened after > those testbeds? How much of today's Internet technology (such as > Starlink) contains ARPA DNA? > > /Jack Haverty > > PS - It occurred to me that Detectives "follow the money" to investigate > crimes. Investors "follow the people" to place their bets. I wonder > if Internet Historians have to "follow the code". > > On 10/3/25 10:26, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > Some years back (circa 2010?) we also took a cruise and were annoyed > > by how slow was access to the net. > > > > So we made a video about it: > > > > https://vimeo.com/815203660 > > > > --karl-- > > > > On 10/3/25 2:05 AM, Michael Grant via Internet-history wrote: > >> From "Jack Haverty via Internet-history" > >> > >>> Recently I heard anecdotal reports that the Internet on cruise ships > >>> works well - but is reliable only when the ship is far out to sea. > >>> When it's in port, or even just approaching port, teleconferencing > >>> is unreliable. My speculation is that traffic loads when near a > >>> port include all the land-based users and the network may be > >>> overwhelmed. But that's just speculation, I have no data. > >>> > >> I have spent quite a bit of time as passenger on cruise ships these > >> last few years. I don't know when the Internet started becoming > >> available on cruise ships but I first used it on-board in 2010 on > >> Holland America. Simply put, the service was awful and expensive > >> regardless if the ship was in port or not. It used a geostationary > >> satellite connection using a dish on a rocker under a ball. When the > >> ship moved a lot, the internet stopped working. It was charged by the > >> minute and you had to connect like dial-up through the ship's captive > >> web portal and manually disconnect when no longer using it. In 2010, > >> iirc, the cost was something like 50 US cents/min and you spent most > >> of your money waiting. > >> > >> Since then, the geostationary ship internet has gotten much better. > >> 3 or 4 years ago, I was on a cruise ship which which no longer > >> charged a per minute charge but still used the similar geostationary > >> link and you still had to "log on" via a captive portal. We were > >> able to have absolutely acceptable video calls part of the time. I > >> was amazed because even with the delay through the geo satellite, the > >> delay was unnoticeable. I had to prove to myself using ping and > >> traceroute that we were actually using a geostationary link and not > >> Starlink! > >> > >> In the last year, I have been on cruise ships that now have > >> Starlink. They have 12 stationary Starlink pizza box antennae > >> mounted high up near one of the stacks (6 on each side). They run 12 > >> separate Starlink connections. I am going to describe what Cunard > >> does but I suspect they are all similar. Cunard runs a VPN which > >> bonds together the 12 connections such that if any of them goes down > >> the packet is sent out any antenna. (I don't know which VPN they use > >> nor do I know how they bond the links, if it's round-robin or not, > >> sorry!) The VPN is terminated in either Southampton UK or Miami > >> Florida, US depending on where the ship is (they change over midway > >> across the Atlantic). They run something like bufferbloat to share > >> the b/w more fairly. They also run a firewall where they block quite > >> a few sites. I have had to ask them to unblock things which they > >> have kindly done. > >> > >> I understand that Starlink sets the pricing on the ships and that > >> they may have installed the system for little or nothing in exchange > >> for being able to capture that market. I don't know for sure > >> though. I do know a lot of cruise ships are installing Starlink > >> now. My only gripe is they charge per device and it's 2x if you want > >> 2 devices, so for my wife and I, if we both just want to be able to > >> use whatsapp to find one another on-board, it's well overpriced. > >> They charge about USD $25/day per device and have a "special" price > >> where for the cost of 2 devices you can have up to 4. > >> > >> The ships do not disable the satellite internet near ports. They > >> continue to use the satellite network even in port. This is likely > >> because if they were to somehow connect the ship to the port's wifi > >> they would quickly saturate it. It's also likely because several of > >> the ship's systems use their satellite internet and for security > >> reasons they want that going over their VPN. I have not noticed much > >> difference sitting in port using the satellite internet than at sea, > >> if anything, it's better since many people are off the ship. I > >> suspect what Jack may be referring to is when approaching port people > >> saturate the ship's internet as they prepare to disembark, like doing > >> research for things to do or coordinating with friends and family and > >> such. I have my doubts it has much to do with interference other > >> than maybe if it's Starlink that the ship starts to compete with > >> other Starlink users on land using the same space based resource in > >> the sky. > >> > >> Internet in the cabins has also gotten a lot better over the years. > >> Cunard has installed Aruba (HP) APs in all the hallways and cabins. > >> Rather unfortunately one cruise I was on, the wifi in my cabin would > >> literally seize up. I spent quite a bit of time tracking it down to > >> a firmware issue that Aruba had issued a patch for but unfortunately > >> it was not possible to update the firmware at sea because they would > >> have had to take the entire ship off-line while they did it so it > >> would have to wait until next time the ship went in for maintenance. > >> > >> Every cruise ship I have been on in the last 10-15 years also had > >> separate mobile phone and data available via Maritime > >> Telecommunications Network (MTN) or other similar companies. This is > >> only turned on when at sea. At port, they turn off the maritime > >> telecom network and you are expected to roam on to the local carrier. > >> > >> I am fairly certain this uses a separate geostationary satellite and > >> separate dish-on-rocker-in-ball antenna from the internet > >> connection. Receiving text messages (SMS) has always been free for > >> me and that's good because the number of times that's saved me when > >> on-board and needing to go through some 2FA to get into something has > >> been plenty. However, making and receiving calls, sending texts, and > >> especially using the mobile data is scarily expensive. I have talked > >> with plenty of passengers who had no idea and those who had used it > >> unwittingly on previous cruises only to gotten home to $1000+ phone > >> bills! Unfortunately, unless you are a little bit savvy, it's all to > >> easy to just use it because it works. > >> > >> Ships also seem to have Inmarsat and/or Iridium phones on board but > >> as far as I am aware this is not hooked up to some general system > >> for the public. It seems like this is backup or ship to shore coms > >> for the bridge. > >> > >> All of my experience above is solely from my experiences as a > >> passenger. Everything I know here is just from chatting up tech > >> people on board ships and my own probing around with tools like ping > >> and traceroute. Unfortunately, I never worked in the maritime or > >> satellite networking industry myself. > >> > >> I'd be interested in hearing some of the technical details if someone > >> on this list knows more. It would also be interesting to see a > >> thread of the history of internet on air crafts if someone knows > >> about that. > >> > >> Michael Grant > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Oct 4 14:20:44 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 14:20:44 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <1915927611.3837130.1759550393874@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> <1915927611.3837130.1759550393874@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <917f87de-a3df-4294-b8cf-db34848932a3@3kitty.org> On 10/3/25 20:59, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > It may have also been an early use of AI (or whatever was thought of as AI in those days). In those early days of AI, there was lots of activity in specific applications, e.g., getting a computer to manipulate physical blocks (like children's toys) or understand the content? of images.? Other projects explored "Expert Systems", in which the idea was to find an expert in some particular field, figure out how the expert does whatever s/he does, and write software that would mimic the behavior of the expert. AALPS may have been one of those "expert system" projects.? I was involved in one at MIT in Lickliders' group involving creating a PDP-10 system that could decode, understand, and even participate in radio conversations involving Morse Code. Since I had done such "work" as a ham radio operator in high school on "traffic nets" (think email over ham radio but with humans as the computers), I ended up being the "expert" that we tried to replicate in software.? I was actually pretty proficient in Morse at the time, but it took some thinking to figure out exactly how I managed that.?? We never got the PDP-10 to run fast enough to be a participant in an actual radio network with human operators though; with today's computers it would likely be easy. There's a good summary containing the history of some of ARPA's projects in that era in: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf That report was published in 1990, so doesn't include anything later.?? The parts I read covered work that occurred in the 1970s and 1980s.? Section E contains computer-oriented projects that the Information Processing Techniques Office (IPTO) part of ARPA managed.? It's Chapters 18-23 of the report, and includes ARPANET's history, a section on AI, plus one on the Morse Code project. I haven't found any similar reports from the years since 1990, but they may be out there....somewhere. /Jack Haverty -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Oct 4 15:23:33 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 15:23:33 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <917f87de-a3df-4294-b8cf-db34848932a3@3kitty.org> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> <1915927611.3837130.1759550393874@mail.yahoo.com> <917f87de-a3df-4294-b8cf-db34848932a3@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Some better search term on discover.dtic.mil found this - the sequel to the report I just mentioned, published a year later: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf Chapter XVI is titled "SIMNET" which has a special, but likely as yet untold, history with The Internet. Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983, ARPA asked our "Internet" group at BBN to get involved with a project that might be able to use the emerging Internet for its communications infrastructure.? That program was called SIMNET, or SIMulation NETwork, and the concept was to create a video-game type of training tool for use in combat training.? The initial use was training M-1 tank crews, but the concept included other participants, such as helicopters.? Mike Kraley and I went to a bunch of meetings to brainstorm and flesh out the ideas, as part of our ongoing work on ARPA Internet-related contracts. It became clear that for such "gaming" applications, network latency was important.? It mattered a lot.? If you fired at the enemy, you should be able to see the results immediately and consistently.? A training system had to be accurate for the things that mattered, but could cut corners to save costs for the things that didn't. Inside the Internet world, that need was one of the motivations for the introduction of the TOS field (Type Of Service) in the IP header.? Our conclusion was that the Internet would have to support at least two different types of behavior.? Possibly more since SIMNET was also envisioned to simulate radio traffic and "chatter" between the crews in the simulation, using packet voice. Datagrams associated with things like firing weapons or vocal snippets could be small, but had to get delivered quickly. Datagrams associated with things like detailed maps could be delivered at a more leisurely pace.? Terrestrial routes would be good for the former, and geosynchronous satellites appropriate for the latter.? Of course there would also need to be new appropriate routing mechanisms to make it all work as envisioned. At BBN, we wrote a proposal to start an actual SIMNET project. Shortly thereafter, in July 1983, BBN reorganized and that project was approved and the contract assigned to a part of BBN that had been doing various training systems.? So I never got to drive an M1 tank (which was an ARPA mandated requirement for everyone assigned to the project). SIMNET ended up being very successful, as detailed in that report. But the implementors discovered that the Internet, which hadn't implemented any mechanisms for TOS, couldn't provide the communications services that SIMNET needed.?? They had to build their own private communications system instead. In retrospect, we probably didn't do enough to lay out that plan for coordinating the SIMNET and Internet evolution.? ARPA reorganized at about the same time, the ICCB became the IAB, the people involved changed, and the plan was lost.? SIMNET was successful, but TOS support in the Internet didn't happen. /Jack Haverty -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Oct 4 16:10:20 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 16:10:20 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <17137A33-9043-4730-9A9D-BD256E40D55B@icloud.com> On Oct 3, 2025, at 11:38?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > SRI developed an Advanced Airborne Load Planning System to demonstrate the > utility of having access to computing power on the Internet while literally > on the tarmac at the 18th Airborne Corps. The system could load plan in > seconds the entire 18th Airborne using AALPS. Eventually a flyoff was done > with the regular load masters and they concluded the system did better than > they did. It could also include low altittude air extraction (eg, using a > parachute to pull a tank out of the loading bay) and was smart enough to > organize the loading to offload the equipment before the pax (passengers) > so we didn't drop equipment on the troops. > > vint Also see: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5006536 (registration required) https://www.sri.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/08/A-heritage-of-innovation-The-Life-and-Times-of-a-Successful-SRI-Laboratory-Artificial-Intelligence-and-Robotics.pdf Greg From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Oct 4 16:47:05 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 16:47:05 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> <1915927611.3837130.1759550393874@mail.yahoo.com> <917f87de-a3df-4294-b8cf-db34848932a3@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <3abd286f-7a61-43ab-9425-3d656ea32782@3kitty.org> Sorry, wrong URL.? Volume II of the "ARPA Technical Accomplishments" is at https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA241725.pdf and it contains the SIMNET section I mentioned.?? There's also a Volume III, at https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA241680.pdf This 3-volume set contains a lot of historical detail about the ARPA "Information Processing Techniques" projects associated with the Internet, mixed in with all sorts of other research activities.?? It doesn't contain much info about the Internet technologies such as the RFCs do, but describes a lot of the military needs that the research was targetting in the 1970s and 1980s, and the rationale for such work. /Jack On 10/4/25 15:23, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Some better search term on discover.dtic.mil found this - the sequel > to the report I just mentioned, published a year later: > > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf > > Chapter XVI is titled "SIMNET" which has a special, but likely as yet > untold, history with The Internet. > > Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983, ARPA asked our "Internet" group > at BBN to get involved with a project that might be able to use the > emerging Internet for its communications infrastructure. That program > was called SIMNET, or SIMulation NETwork, and the concept was to > create a video-game type of training tool for use in combat training.? > The initial use was training M-1 tank crews, but the concept included > other participants, such as helicopters. Mike Kraley and I went to a > bunch of meetings to brainstorm and flesh out the ideas, as part of > our ongoing work on ARPA Internet-related contracts. > > It became clear that for such "gaming" applications, network latency > was important.? It mattered a lot.? If you fired at the enemy, you > should be able to see the results immediately and consistently.? A > training system had to be accurate for the things that mattered, but > could cut corners to save costs for the things that didn't. > > Inside the Internet world, that need was one of the motivations for > the introduction of the TOS field (Type Of Service) in the IP header.? > Our conclusion was that the Internet would have to support at least > two different types of behavior.? Possibly more since SIMNET was also > envisioned to simulate radio traffic and "chatter" between the crews > in the simulation, using packet voice. > > Datagrams associated with things like firing weapons or vocal snippets > could be small, but had to get delivered quickly. Datagrams associated > with things like detailed maps could be delivered at a more leisurely > pace.? Terrestrial routes would be good for the former, and > geosynchronous satellites appropriate for the latter.? Of course there > would also need to be new appropriate routing mechanisms to make it > all work as envisioned. > > At BBN, we wrote a proposal to start an actual SIMNET project. Shortly > thereafter, in July 1983, BBN reorganized and that project was > approved and the contract assigned to a part of BBN that had been > doing various training systems.? So I never got to drive an M1 tank > (which was an ARPA mandated requirement for everyone assigned to the > project). > > SIMNET ended up being very successful, as detailed in that report. But > the implementors discovered that the Internet, which hadn't > implemented any mechanisms for TOS, couldn't provide the > communications services that SIMNET needed.?? They had to build their > own private communications system instead. > > In retrospect, we probably didn't do enough to lay out that plan for > coordinating the SIMNET and Internet evolution.? ARPA reorganized at > about the same time, the ICCB became the IAB, the people involved > changed, and the plan was lost.? SIMNET was successful, but TOS > support in the Internet didn't happen. > > /Jack Haverty > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Oct 4 17:25:57 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 4 Oct 2025 17:25:57 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6CAE8B99-0A76-4DA1-A2B9-E7AC0D3F19C6@icloud.com> On Oct 3, 2025, at 11:38?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > SRI developed an Advanced Airborne Load Planning System to demonstrate the > utility of having access to computing power on the Internet while literally > on the tarmac at the 18th Airborne Corps. The system could load plan in > seconds the entire 18th Airborne using AALPS. Eventually a flyoff was done > with the regular load masters and they concluded the system did better than > they did. It could also include low altittude air extraction (eg, using a > parachute to pull a tank out of the loading bay) and was smart enough to > organize the loading to offload the equipment before the pax (passengers) > so we didn't drop equipment on the troops. > > vint > Also see https://evergreenbeams.weebly.com/uploads/6/4/8/4/6484057/ebooksclub.org__operations_research_applications__operations_research_series_.pdf which cites the Anderson/Ortiz paper, as well as two tech reports from Mike Frankel. Greg From bob.hinden at gmail.com Sun Oct 5 09:57:16 2025 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2025 09:57:16 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <6CAE8B99-0A76-4DA1-A2B9-E7AC0D3F19C6@icloud.com> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> <6CAE8B99-0A76-4DA1-A2B9-E7AC0D3F19C6@icloud.com> Message-ID: Very interesting thread. I have a personal perspective on the Internet at Sea. I have been sailing from San Francisco to Hawaii on the Pacific Cup (https://pacificcup.org ) sailboat race since 2004. I have done the race five times and have seen the technical choice's evolve quite a bit. Unlike large vessels, I had a much smaller power and money budget. The first couple of races in the 2004 and 2008, I used Single Side band HF radio using the sailmail system (https://sailmail.com ) with pactor modems. This was text based email and encoded weather forecast GRIB files. Not very fast (~2000baud on a good day) but it did work. There were Inmarsat Fleet broadband solutions available at that time that could do 150kbps, but the expense of the equipment and data cost ($25/mbyte) exceeded my budget. In the 2014 I moved to using an Iridium phone with an external antenna. This wasn?t much faster, but was more reliable. In 2016 and 2022, I installed an Iridium Go. This was a bit faster but also had an improved connection via WiFi interface and was designed for data. With this, there could be limited web access, but only for very simple web pages. I mostly used it for text email and grib files. We were able to download bigger grib files that improved our weather routing. The WiFi interface also allowed crew members to send emails from their phones. The previous solutions were tied to a single computer. The introduction of Starlink has changed everything. We first saw it on the larger boats with bigger power and money budgets. Now we are seeing it on many more boats. I suspect that for the race next summer it will probably be on the majority of the boats doing the race. This has created a new set of problems. While it is great for communication, weather data, and uploading videos from each boat to social media, skippers are finding the that the off watch crew are spending a lot of time on social media instead of sleeping. Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From karl at cavebear.com Sun Oct 5 13:21:59 2025 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2025 13:21:59 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <3abd286f-7a61-43ab-9425-3d656ea32782@3kitty.org> References: <2551d373-b594-4607-8fa2-b0423ce31cba@3kitty.org> <5a0319cf-c723-4f83-acd5-0711db05de5f@iwl.com> <23d6883a-6393-4301-8ec5-0aeecc12afb4@3kitty.org> <135612546.767614.1759533953463@mail.yahoo.com> <852949159.3794036.1759535879523@mail.yahoo.com> <1915927611.3837130.1759550393874@mail.yahoo.com> <917f87de-a3df-4294-b8cf-db34848932a3@3kitty.org> <3abd286f-7a61-43ab-9425-3d656ea32782@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <45bcf200-c1e0-4f00-8bd0-e665ec0893bc@cavebear.com> Having worked at SDC in the Q7/Q7A buildings (that once housed the SAGE Q7 computers at SDC) am only mildly aware of the efforts to construct a network to share the orphaned Q32 computer (the successor to the Q7.) (By-the-way, a couple of years back I stopped at a hat shop in Santa Monica to buy a Peruvian hat.? While there I realized that the shop was in a nice office, new-ish complex that occupied the campus that once was the SDC 2400/2500/Q7 buildings.? There was no trace of what was once there.) ? ? ? ? --karl-- On 10/4/25 4:47 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > This 3-volume set contains a lot of historical detail about the ARPA > "Information Processing Techniques" projects associated with the > Internet, mixed in with all sorts of other research activities.?? It > doesn't contain much info about the Internet technologies such as the > RFCs do, but describes a lot of the military needs that the research > was targetting in the 1970s and 1980s, and the rationale for such work. > From touch at strayalpha.com Mon Oct 6 16:33:13 2025 From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com) Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2025 16:33:13 -0700 Subject: [ih] Test - please ignore Message-ID: This is a test message. Please ignore it. ? Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Oct 7 10:38:32 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 10:38:32 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> forwarded for Barbara > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > From: Barbara Denny > To: Internet-history > Sent: Monday, October 6, 2025 at 10:45:00 AM PDT > Subject: Re: [ih] Internet at Sea > > See inline comments below. > > On Saturday, October 4, 2025 at 03:31:27 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > Some better search term on discover.dtic.mil found this - the sequel to > the report I just mentioned, published a year later: > > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf > > Chapter XVI is titled "SIMNET" which has a special, but likely as yet > untold, history with The Internet. > > Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983, ARPA asked our "Internet" group at > BBN to get involved with a project that might be able to use the > emerging Internet for its communications infrastructure. That program > was called SIMNET, or SIMulation NETwork, and the concept was to create > a video-game type of training tool for use in combat training. The > initial use was training M-1 tank crews, but the concept included other > participants, such as helicopters. Mike Kraley and I went to a bunch of > meetings to brainstorm and flesh out the ideas, as part of our ongoing > work on ARPA Internet-related contracts. > > It became clear that for such "gaming" applications, network latency was > important. It mattered a lot. If you fired at the enemy, you should be > able to see the results immediately and consistently. A training system > had to be accurate for the things that mattered, but could cut corners > to save costs for the things that didn't. > > Inside the Internet world, that need was one of the motivations for the > introduction of the TOS field (Type Of Service) in the IP header. Our > conclusion was that the Internet would have to support at least two > different types of behavior. Possibly more since SIMNET was also > envisioned to simulate radio traffic and "chatter" between the crews in > the simulation, using packet voice. > > Datagrams associated with things like firing weapons or vocal snippets > could be small, but had to get delivered quickly. Datagrams associated > with things like detailed maps could be delivered at a more leisurely > pace. Terrestrial routes would be good for the former, and > geosynchronous satellites appropriate for the latter. Of course there > would also need to be new appropriate routing mechanisms to make it all > work as envisioned. > > At BBN, we wrote a proposal to start an actual SIMNET project. Shortly > thereafter, in July 1983, BBN reorganized and that project was approved > and the contract assigned to a part of BBN that had been doing various > training systems. So I never got to drive an M1 tank (which was an ARPA > mandated requirement for everyone assigned to the project). > > SIMNET ended up being very successful, as detailed in that report. But > the implementors discovered that the Internet, which hadn't implemented > any mechanisms for TOS, couldn't provide the communications services > that SIMNET needed. They had to build their own private communications > system instead. > > > Can you expand on your thoughts here? I didn't really participate in SIMNET much but I am confused about your words here. I never heard anything about people deciding they needed to build their own private communications system instead. Do you remember when you heard this? Or was this just a recommendation? Did this ever happen or did the end of the Cold War stop this thinking? > > >A little more background... > > > In the fall of 1991, I was sent to Germany for demonstrations of packet radio (DARPA effort). It used the LPR (Low Cost Packet Radio) which as far as I know was the last version of radio hardware and software before that program ended. BBN was also sent there to support this demonstration and they were tasked with the application component. The demonstrations were pretty important. The observers were at the Warrior Preparation Center. (FYI, The LPRs were deployed as far away as Rammstein Air Base. I got to ride in a real Humvee as we set up the network!). Later SRI got a letter from DARPA regarding this effort. The letter said the success of the demonstrations resulted in the military considering using the lpr in support of mobile responders for Reforger '92 and made them feel they they could extend simulation to the battalion commander ( At some point I remember hearing DARPA wanted to combine both real and simulated elements together for training purposes). The letter also said DARPA was looking forward to breaking new ground in warfighting simulation technology. There was no hint of some other communication system. > > >I am also including a link to a BBN report covering simulation of the radio communication environment for SIMNET. It was interesting to me because they chose SINCGARS for the model. This report is dated January 1992 and the SRI DARPA letter is dated December 1991. > > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA244212.pdf > > In retrospect, we probably didn't do enough to lay out that plan for > coordinating the SIMNET and Internet evolution. ARPA reorganized at > about the same time, the ICCB became the IAB, the people involved > changed, and the plan was lost. SIMNET was successful, but TOS support > in the Internet didn't happen. > > > BTW, if you look at the packet radio paper recently cited, there is a flag in the packet radio E2E header that indicates a packet speech type of service. The definition of what that means for the radio is defined. I would think that because of the packet speech work in the 70s, the ToS field in the IP header would have been used. I haven't seen or heard about this so what happened? I think there were other motivations for using this field in the IP header beyond SIMNET. > > >barbara > > /Jack Haverty > > From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Oct 7 12:26:09 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 12:26:09 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> Message-ID: Answering Barbara's questions... A few years ago, someone who had worked on SIMNET told me that they had chosen to use a private network approach rather than running over The Internet which was shared with others.?? I don't know any of the details though. My suspicion is that they built a private clone of the Internet, using TCP/IP routers, and circuits.? Lots of corporations were deploying similar private clones for use within their corporation and possibly some partners. For a particular project, a private "intranet" could be carefully managed to meet the needs for gaming, perhaps using the methodology learned from the ARPANET. The ARPANET had a team of analysts who looked at traffic statistics and trends, and designed changes to the ARPANET, e.g., to add or remove circuits, order higher bancwith, modify protocols, etc. That same philosophy could be applied to a private Internet, to maintain needed and consistent performance for a specific application. In addition, with all of the switches and computers involved in the project under the project's control, customized approaches could be designed and implemented.? Corporations couldn't really do that when all their routers came from Cisco, but a military project such as SIMNET could; perhaps they implemented some TOS functionality, or something else to address the latency requirements.? With a private system, even based on TCP/IP, you could do that. Coordinating with the "public" Internet, funding research on general solutions and implementations, and getting new mechanisms into the Standards Process was not needed for the project to be successful. A project-specific solution was sufficient. But I don't know any of the actual details about how the SIMNET communications worked.?? So the above is just speculation.? I suspect the details are in reports somewhere in DTIC. /Jack On 10/7/25 10:38, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > forwarded for Barbara > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> From: Barbara Denny >> To: Internet-history >> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2025 at 10:45:00 AM PDT >> Subject: Re: [ih] Internet at Sea >> >> See inline comments below. >> >> On Saturday, October 4, 2025 at 03:31:27 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> >> Some better search term on discover.dtic.mil found this - the sequel to >> the report I just mentioned, published a year later: >> >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf >> >> Chapter XVI is titled "SIMNET" which has a special, but likely as yet >> untold, history with The Internet. >> >> Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983, ARPA asked our "Internet" group at >> BBN to get involved with a project that might be able to use the >> emerging Internet for its communications infrastructure. That program >> was called SIMNET, or SIMulation NETwork, and the concept was to create >> a video-game type of training tool for use in combat training. The >> initial use was training M-1 tank crews, but the concept included other >> participants, such as helicopters. Mike Kraley and I went to a bunch of >> meetings to brainstorm and flesh out the ideas, as part of our ongoing >> work on ARPA Internet-related contracts. >> >> It became clear that for such "gaming" applications, network latency was >> important. It mattered a lot. If you fired at the enemy, you should be >> able to see the results immediately and consistently. A training system >> had to be accurate for the things that mattered, but could cut corners >> to save costs for the things that didn't. >> >> Inside the Internet world, that need was one of the motivations for the >> introduction of the TOS field (Type Of Service) in the IP header. Our >> conclusion was that the Internet would have to support at least two >> different types of behavior. Possibly more since SIMNET was also >> envisioned to simulate radio traffic and "chatter" between the crews in >> the simulation, using packet voice. >> >> Datagrams associated with things like firing weapons or vocal snippets >> could be small, but had to get delivered quickly. Datagrams associated >> with things like detailed maps could be delivered at a more leisurely >> pace. Terrestrial routes would be good for the former, and >> geosynchronous satellites appropriate for the latter. Of course there >> would also need to be new appropriate routing mechanisms to make it all >> work as envisioned. >> >> At BBN, we wrote a proposal to start an actual SIMNET project. Shortly >> thereafter, in July 1983, BBN reorganized and that project was approved >> and the contract assigned to a part of BBN that had been doing various >> training systems. So I never got to drive an M1 tank (which was an ARPA >> mandated requirement for everyone assigned to the project). >> >> SIMNET ended up being very successful, as detailed in that report. But >> the implementors discovered that the Internet, which hadn't implemented >> any mechanisms for TOS, couldn't provide the communications services >> that SIMNET needed. They had to build their own private communications >> system instead. >> >>> Can you expand on your thoughts here? I didn't really participate in SIMNET much but I am confused about your words here. I never heard anything about people deciding they needed to build their own private communications system instead. Do you remember when you heard this? Or was this just a recommendation? Did this ever happen or did the end of the Cold War stop this thinking? >>> A little more background... >> > In the fall of 1991, I was sent to Germany for demonstrations of packet radio (DARPA effort). It used the LPR (Low Cost Packet Radio) which as far as I know was the last version of radio hardware and software before that program ended. BBN was also sent there to support this demonstration and they were tasked with the application component. The demonstrations were pretty important. The observers were at the Warrior Preparation Center. (FYI, The LPRs were deployed as far away as Rammstein Air Base. I got to ride in a real Humvee as we set up the network!). Later SRI got a letter from DARPA regarding this effort. The letter said the success of the demonstrations resulted in the military considering using the lpr in support of mobile responders for Reforger '92 and made them feel they they could extend simulation to the battalion commander ( At some point I remember hearing DARPA wanted to combine both real and simulated elements together for training purposes). The letter a > lso said DARPA was looking forward to breaking new ground in warfighting simulation technology. There was no hint of some other communication system. >>> I am also including a link to a BBN report covering simulation of the radio communication environment for SIMNET. It was interesting to me because they chose SINCGARS for the model. This report is dated January 1992 and the SRI DARPA letter is dated December 1991. >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA244212.pdf >> >> In retrospect, we probably didn't do enough to lay out that plan for >> coordinating the SIMNET and Internet evolution. ARPA reorganized at >> about the same time, the ICCB became the IAB, the people involved >> changed, and the plan was lost. SIMNET was successful, but TOS support >> in the Internet didn't happen. >> >>> BTW, if you look at the packet radio paper recently cited, there is a flag in the packet radio E2E header that indicates a packet speech type of service. The definition of what that means for the radio is defined. I would think that because of the packet speech work in the 70s, the ToS field in the IP header would have been used. I haven't seen or heard about this so what happened? I think there were other motivations for using this field in the IP header beyond SIMNET. >>> barbara >> /Jack Haverty >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From craig at tereschau.net Tue Oct 7 12:54:49 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 13:54:49 -0600 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> Message-ID: As I recall it was called the Defense Simulation INternet (DSIN) or something close and was carefully engineered to have enough capacity to link the various simulators. It made heavy use of UDP. Couple of quick comments (some of my college classmates were the core of the initial implementation team, but I was not on the team, so some details may be not quite right) about the networking aspects. Both network bandwidth and the number of messages was at a premium and the team figured this out quite quickly. They were working initially with the 1983-vintage Internet, with no working congestion control and where effective Ethernet speed was about 1Mbps due to network adapter limitations and Unix kernel limitations. They had, initially, an n*n comms pattern, every "thing" in the simulated space was tracking what every other "thing" was doing to ensure everyone had a faithful representation of the world. Each node drove its own graphics displays (and there were multiple per tank). You didn't have to get too many tanks, plus shells and other moving things, and the network saturated if you sent out an update on every action. So what they did was develop predictive algorithms for each item. For instance, if a tank was speeding along, the algorithm predicted it would continue along its current path and the tank only sent an update when it deviated from the predicted path. Each node was, therefore, calculating what it thought each item in the space was doing and looking for occasional updates. This sharply reduced network traffic and made performance quite good -- and this is the core of the simulation protocols that were developed in the late 1980s and early 1990s. There were some early hiccoughs. There's an art to figuring out how often to update and soldiers (who were getting to play the world's best video game in high end tank simulators) were quick to figure out glitches and take advantage. As I recall, one trick was to drive your tank at maximum speed (something like 60 mph) crosswise in front of your opponent's tank with your gun pointing ahead -- so they think you're an unsuspecting target but also have to line up a shot on a fast moving object. Then, just before you estimate your opponent has got their shot ready, you stomp on the brakes and turn your turret towards them and fire. What the opponent would see is your tank magically jump backwards and shoot at them. Side story: as I understand the politics of simulation, the SIMNET project had a number of challenges getting the various contractors to play nicely. I think BBN finally ended up buying the specialized graphics display company to reduce friction. But what made SIMNET a big success was the NATO Tank Competition. The US Army historically did poorly -- someone (the SIMNET PM?), in a stroke of marketing genius, had SIMNET code the tank course into the simulator and let the Army team practice on it. The US won the competition.... Craig On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 1:26?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Answering Barbara's questions... > > A few years ago, someone who had worked on SIMNET told me that they had > chosen to use a private network approach rather than running over The > Internet which was shared with others. I don't know any of the details > though. > > My suspicion is that they built a private clone of the Internet, using > TCP/IP routers, and circuits. Lots of corporations were deploying > similar private clones for use within their corporation and possibly > some partners. > > For a particular project, a private "intranet" could be carefully > managed to meet the needs for gaming, perhaps using the methodology > learned from the ARPANET. > > The ARPANET had a team of analysts who looked at traffic statistics and > trends, and designed changes to the ARPANET, e.g., to add or remove > circuits, order higher bancwith, modify protocols, etc. That same > philosophy could be applied to a private Internet, to maintain needed > and consistent performance for a specific application. > > In addition, with all of the switches and computers involved in the > project under the project's control, customized approaches could be > designed and implemented. Corporations couldn't really do that when all > their routers came from Cisco, but a military project such as SIMNET > could; perhaps they implemented some TOS functionality, or something > else to address the latency requirements. With a private system, even > based on TCP/IP, you could do that. > > Coordinating with the "public" Internet, funding research on general > solutions and implementations, and getting new mechanisms into the > Standards Process was not needed for the project to be successful. A > project-specific solution was sufficient. > > But I don't know any of the actual details about how the SIMNET > communications worked. So the above is just speculation. I suspect > the details are in reports somewhere in DTIC. > > /Jack > > On 10/7/25 10:38, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > > forwarded for Barbara > > > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- > >> From: Barbara Denny > >> To: Internet-history > >> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2025 at 10:45:00 AM PDT > >> Subject: Re: [ih] Internet at Sea > >> > >> See inline comments below. > >> > >> On Saturday, October 4, 2025 at 03:31:27 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > >> > >> > >> Some better search term on discover.dtic.mil found this - the sequel to > >> the report I just mentioned, published a year later: > >> > >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf > >> > >> Chapter XVI is titled "SIMNET" which has a special, but likely as yet > >> untold, history with The Internet. > >> > >> Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983, ARPA asked our "Internet" group at > >> BBN to get involved with a project that might be able to use the > >> emerging Internet for its communications infrastructure. That program > >> was called SIMNET, or SIMulation NETwork, and the concept was to create > >> a video-game type of training tool for use in combat training. The > >> initial use was training M-1 tank crews, but the concept included other > >> participants, such as helicopters. Mike Kraley and I went to a bunch of > >> meetings to brainstorm and flesh out the ideas, as part of our ongoing > >> work on ARPA Internet-related contracts. > >> > >> It became clear that for such "gaming" applications, network latency was > >> important. It mattered a lot. If you fired at the enemy, you should be > >> able to see the results immediately and consistently. A training system > >> had to be accurate for the things that mattered, but could cut corners > >> to save costs for the things that didn't. > >> > >> Inside the Internet world, that need was one of the motivations for the > >> introduction of the TOS field (Type Of Service) in the IP header. Our > >> conclusion was that the Internet would have to support at least two > >> different types of behavior. Possibly more since SIMNET was also > >> envisioned to simulate radio traffic and "chatter" between the crews in > >> the simulation, using packet voice. > >> > >> Datagrams associated with things like firing weapons or vocal snippets > >> could be small, but had to get delivered quickly. Datagrams associated > >> with things like detailed maps could be delivered at a more leisurely > >> pace. Terrestrial routes would be good for the former, and > >> geosynchronous satellites appropriate for the latter. Of course there > >> would also need to be new appropriate routing mechanisms to make it all > >> work as envisioned. > >> > >> At BBN, we wrote a proposal to start an actual SIMNET project. Shortly > >> thereafter, in July 1983, BBN reorganized and that project was approved > >> and the contract assigned to a part of BBN that had been doing various > >> training systems. So I never got to drive an M1 tank (which was an ARPA > >> mandated requirement for everyone assigned to the project). > >> > >> SIMNET ended up being very successful, as detailed in that report. But > >> the implementors discovered that the Internet, which hadn't implemented > >> any mechanisms for TOS, couldn't provide the communications services > >> that SIMNET needed. They had to build their own private communications > >> system instead. > >> > >>> Can you expand on your thoughts here? I didn't really participate in > SIMNET much but I am confused about your words here. I never heard anything > about people deciding they needed to build their own private communications > system instead. Do you remember when you heard this? Or was this just a > recommendation? Did this ever happen or did the end of the Cold War stop > this thinking? > >>> A little more background... > >> > In the fall of 1991, I was sent to Germany for demonstrations of > packet radio (DARPA effort). It used the LPR (Low Cost Packet Radio) > which as far as I know was the last version of radio hardware and software > before that program ended. BBN was also sent there to support this > demonstration and they were tasked with the application component. The > demonstrations were pretty important. The observers were at the Warrior > Preparation Center. (FYI, The LPRs were deployed as far away as Rammstein > Air Base. I got to ride in a real Humvee as we set up the network!). Later > SRI got a letter from DARPA regarding this effort. The letter said the > success of the demonstrations resulted in the military considering using > the lpr in support of mobile responders for Reforger '92 and made them > feel they they could extend simulation to the battalion commander ( At some > point I remember hearing DARPA wanted to combine both real and simulated > elements together for training purposes). The letter a > > lso said DARPA was looking forward to breaking new ground in > warfighting simulation technology. There was no hint of some other > communication system. > >>> I am also including a link to a BBN report covering simulation of the > radio communication environment for SIMNET. It was interesting to me > because they chose SINCGARS for the model. This report is dated January > 1992 and the SRI DARPA letter is dated December 1991. > >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA244212.pdf > >> > >> In retrospect, we probably didn't do enough to lay out that plan for > >> coordinating the SIMNET and Internet evolution. ARPA reorganized at > >> about the same time, the ICCB became the IAB, the people involved > >> changed, and the plan was lost. SIMNET was successful, but TOS support > >> in the Internet didn't happen. > >> > >>> BTW, if you look at the packet radio paper recently cited, there is a > flag in the packet radio E2E header that indicates a packet speech type of > service. The definition of what that means for the radio is defined. I > would think that because of the packet speech work in the 70s, the ToS > field in the IP header would have been used. I haven't seen or heard about > this so what happened? I think there were other motivations for using > this field in the IP header beyond SIMNET. > >>> barbara > >> /Jack Haverty > >> > >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Oct 7 13:52:34 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2025 13:52:34 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> Message-ID: Defense Simulation Internet -- that's it, I couldn't remember the name. Quick search uncovers this MITRE study with some technical info: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA381147.pdf /Jack On 10/7/25 12:54, Craig Partridge wrote: > As I recall it was called the Defense Simulation INternet (DSIN) or > something close and was carefully engineered to have enough capacity > to link the various simulators.? It made heavy use of UDP. > > Couple of quick comments (some of my college classmates were the core > of the initial implementation team, but I was not on the team, so some > details may be not quite right) about the networking aspects. > > Both network bandwidth and the number of messages was at a premium and > the team figured this out quite quickly.? They were working initially > with the 1983-vintage Internet, with no working?congestion control and > where effective Ethernet speed was about 1Mbps due to network adapter > limitations and Unix kernel limitations. > > They had, initially, an n*n comms pattern, every "thing" in the > simulated space was tracking what every other "thing" was doing to > ensure everyone had a faithful representation of the world.? Each node > drove its own graphics displays (and there were multiple per tank).? > You didn't have to get too many tanks, plus shells and other moving > things, and the network saturated if you sent out an update on every > action. > > So what they did was develop predictive algorithms for each item.? For > instance, if a tank was speeding along, the algorithm predicted it > would continue along its current path and the tank only sent an update > when it deviated from the predicted path.? Each node was, therefore, > calculating what it thought each item in the space was doing and > looking for occasional updates.? This sharply reduced network traffic > and made performance quite good -- and this is the core of the > simulation protocols that were developed in the late 1980s and early > 1990s. > > There were some early hiccoughs.? There's an art to figuring out how > often to update and soldiers (who were getting to play the world's > best video game in high end tank simulators) were quick to figure out > glitches and take advantage.? As I recall, one trick was to drive your > tank at maximum speed (something like 60 mph) crosswise in front of > your opponent's tank with your gun pointing ahead -- so they think > you're an unsuspecting target but also have to line up a shot on a > fast moving object.? ?Then, just before you estimate your opponent has > got their shot ready, you stomp on the brakes and turn your turret > towards them and fire.? What the opponent would see is your tank > magically jump backwards and shoot at them. > > Side story: as I understand the politics of simulation, the SIMNET > project had a number of challenges getting the various contractors to > play nicely.? I think BBN finally ended up buying the specialized > graphics display company to reduce friction.? But what made SIMNET a > big success was the NATO Tank Competition.? The US Army historically > did poorly -- someone (the SIMNET PM?), in a stroke of marketing > genius, had SIMNET code the tank course into the simulator and let the > Army team practice on it.? The US won the competition.... > > Craig > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 1:26?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > > Answering Barbara's questions... > > A few years ago, someone who had worked on SIMNET told me that > they had > chosen to use a private network approach rather than running over The > Internet which was shared with others.?? I don't know any of the > details > though. > > My suspicion is that they built a private clone of the Internet, > using > TCP/IP routers, and circuits.? Lots of corporations were deploying > similar private clones for use within their corporation and possibly > some partners. > > For a particular project, a private "intranet" could be carefully > managed to meet the needs for gaming, perhaps using the methodology > learned from the ARPANET. > > The ARPANET had a team of analysts who looked at traffic > statistics and > trends, and designed changes to the ARPANET, e.g., to add or remove > circuits, order higher bancwith, modify protocols, etc. That same > philosophy could be applied to a private Internet, to maintain needed > and consistent performance for a specific application. > > In addition, with all of the switches and computers involved in the > project under the project's control, customized approaches could be > designed and implemented.? Corporations couldn't really do that > when all > their routers came from Cisco, but a military project such as SIMNET > could; perhaps they implemented some TOS functionality, or something > else to address the latency requirements.? With a private system, > even > based on TCP/IP, you could do that. > > Coordinating with the "public" Internet, funding research on general > solutions and implementations, and getting new mechanisms into the > Standards Process was not needed for the project to be successful. A > project-specific solution was sufficient. > > But I don't know any of the actual details about how the SIMNET > communications worked.?? So the above is just speculation.? I suspect > the details are in reports somewhere in DTIC. > > /Jack > > On 10/7/25 10:38, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > > forwarded for Barbara > > > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- > >> From: Barbara Denny > >> To: Internet-history > >> Sent: Monday, October 6, 2025 at 10:45:00 AM PDT > >> Subject: Re: [ih] Internet at Sea > >> > >> See inline comments below. > >> > >> On Saturday, October 4, 2025 at 03:31:27 PM PDT, Jack Haverty > via Internet-history wrote: > >> > >> > >> Some better search term on discover.dtic.mil > found this - the sequel to > >> the report I just mentioned, published a year later: > >> > >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA239925.pdf > >> > >> Chapter XVI is titled "SIMNET" which has a special, but likely > as yet > >> untold, history with The Internet. > >> > >> Sometime in late 1982 or early 1983, ARPA asked our "Internet" > group at > >> BBN to get involved with a project that might be able to use the > >> emerging Internet for its communications infrastructure.? That > program > >> was called SIMNET, or SIMulation NETwork, and the concept was > to create > >> a video-game type of training tool for use in combat training.? The > >> initial use was training M-1 tank crews, but the concept > included other > >> participants, such as helicopters.? Mike Kraley and I went to a > bunch of > >> meetings to brainstorm and flesh out the ideas, as part of our > ongoing > >> work on ARPA Internet-related contracts. > >> > >> It became clear that for such "gaming" applications, network > latency was > >> important.? It mattered a lot.? If you fired at the enemy, you > should be > >> able to see the results immediately and consistently.? A > training system > >> had to be accurate for the things that mattered, but could cut > corners > >> to save costs for the things that didn't. > >> > >> Inside the Internet world, that need was one of the motivations > for the > >> introduction of the TOS field (Type Of Service) in the IP > header.? Our > >> conclusion was that the Internet would have to support at least two > >> different types of behavior.? Possibly more since SIMNET was also > >> envisioned to simulate radio traffic and "chatter" between the > crews in > >> the simulation, using packet voice. > >> > >> Datagrams associated with things like firing weapons or vocal > snippets > >> could be small, but had to get delivered quickly. Datagrams > associated > >> with things like detailed maps could be delivered at a more > leisurely > >> pace.? Terrestrial routes would be good for the former, and > >> geosynchronous satellites appropriate for the latter.? Of > course there > >> would also need to be new appropriate routing mechanisms to > make it all > >> work as envisioned. > >> > >> At BBN, we wrote a proposal to start an actual SIMNET project. > Shortly > >> thereafter, in July 1983, BBN reorganized and that project was > approved > >> and the contract assigned to a part of BBN that had been doing > various > >> training systems.? So I never got to drive an M1 tank (which > was an ARPA > >> mandated requirement for everyone assigned to the project). > >> > >> SIMNET ended up being very successful, as detailed in that > report. But > >> the implementors discovered that the Internet, which hadn't > implemented > >> any mechanisms for TOS, couldn't provide the communications > services > >> that SIMNET needed.? ?They had to build their own private > communications > >> system instead. > >> > >>> Can you expand on your thoughts here?? I didn't really > participate in SIMNET much but I am confused about your words > here. I never heard anything about people deciding they needed to > build their own private communications system instead.? Do you > remember when you heard this? Or was this just a recommendation? > Did this ever happen or did the end of the Cold War stop this > thinking? > >>> A little more background... > >>? ?> In the fall of 1991, I was sent to Germany for > demonstrations of packet radio (DARPA effort).? ?It used the LPR > (Low Cost Packet Radio) which as far as I know was the last > version of radio hardware and software before that program ended. > BBN was also sent there to support this demonstration and they > were tasked with the application component.? The demonstrations > were? pretty important. The observers were at the Warrior > Preparation Center. (FYI, The LPRs were deployed as far away as > Rammstein Air Base. I got to ride in a real Humvee as we set up > the network!). Later SRI got a letter from DARPA regarding this > effort.? The letter said the success of the demonstrations > resulted in the military considering using the lpr in support of > mobile responders for Reforger '92? and made them feel they they > could extend simulation to the battalion commander ( At some point > I remember hearing DARPA wanted to combine both real and simulated > elements together for training purposes).? The letter a > >? ?lso said DARPA was looking forward to breaking new ground in > warfighting simulation technology.? ?There was no hint of some > other communication system. > >>> I am also including a link to a BBN report covering simulation > of the radio communication environment for SIMNET.? It was > interesting to me because they chose SINCGARS for the model.? This > report is dated January 1992 and the SRI DARPA letter is dated > December 1991. > >> https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA244212.pdf > >> > >> In retrospect, we probably didn't do enough to lay out that > plan for > >> coordinating the SIMNET and Internet evolution.? ARPA > reorganized at > >> about the same time, the ICCB became the IAB, the people involved > >> changed, and the plan was lost.? SIMNET was successful, but TOS > support > >> in the Internet didn't happen. > >> > >>> BTW, if you look at the packet radio paper recently cited, > there is a flag in the packet radio E2E header that indicates a > packet speech type of service.? The definition of what that means > for the radio is defined.? I would think that because of the > packet speech work in the 70s, the ToS? field in the IP header > would have been used.? I haven't seen or heard about this so what > happened?? ?I think there were other motivations for using this > field in the IP header beyond SIMNET. > >>> barbara > >> /Jack Haverty > >> > >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities > and mailing lists. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 11:47:38 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 18:47:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1404402853.887973.1759949258928@mail.yahoo.com> Trimming the message.? I am back to not having much luck in getting my messages posted. I remember hearing a little bit about the Defense Simulation INternet.? I didn't know the size of this network. I think I thought of it more like a testbed so probably not very large. I may have a different perspective with what the military, or at least some part of the army, wanted to have happen in the late 80s/early 90s?.? I don't think they were that interested putting effort/money in a private system that couldn't be created from COTS products.? They also wanted to create RFCs. Here are a couple examples. Quite some time ago I mentioned on this list they didn't like IGMP.? They wanted control of group membership.? This wasn't available so I gave them what I call a hack for doing this.? I explicitly told them it should only be used for this demonstration just to get them through it. They should work on getting a better solution.? Much to my display they wrote up the approach in a RFC without telling me about it.?? Another thing they wanted was RSVP in a commercial router. If I remember right, RSVP was not really getting implemented in routers.? I ended up having meetings with Cisco and WellFleet (maybe Wellfleet was Bay at this point in time) to try to get them interested in implementing the protocol.? Wellfleet seemed? interested in pursuing the discussion. My impression was Cisco was not that interested.? (The number of routers that the army said they would probably purchase immediately was not large enough. Cisco was a lot bigger by then.)? I don't think I talked to Proteon or 3com.? I think in the case of Proteon I was having trouble with a getting a good? POC.? For 3com I didn't realize they had a router at the time. I don't know who, if anyone, implemented RSVP as a result of these discussions. I also don't have any knowledge about where the wanted to use the technology. The work was probably done under a task ordering agreement SRI had with CECOM.? I only spent a brief amount of time on each task. barbara On Tuesday, October 7, 2025 at 01:52:47 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Defense Simulation Internet -- that's it, I couldn't remember the name. Quick search uncovers this MITRE study with some technical info: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA381147.pdf /Jack On 10/7/25 12:54, Craig Partridge wrote: > As I recall it was called the Defense Simulation INternet (DSIN) or > something close and was carefully engineered to have enough capacity > to link the various simulators.? It made heavy use of UDP. > > Couple of quick comments (some of my college classmates were the core > of the initial implementation team, but I was not on the team, so some > details may be not quite right) about the networking aspects. > > Both network bandwidth and the number of messages was at a premium and > the team figured this out quite quickly.? They were working initially > with the 1983-vintage Internet, with no working?congestion control and > where effective Ethernet speed was about 1Mbps due to network adapter > limitations and Unix kernel limitations. > > They had, initially, an n*n comms pattern, every "thing" in the > simulated space was tracking what every other "thing" was doing to > ensure everyone had a faithful representation of the world.? Each node > drove its own graphics displays (and there were multiple per tank).? > You didn't have to get too many tanks, plus shells and other moving > things, and the network saturated if you sent out an update on every > action. > > So what they did was develop predictive algorithms for each item.? For > instance, if a tank was speeding along, the algorithm predicted it > would continue along its current path and the tank only sent an update > when it deviated from the predicted path.? Each node was, therefore, > calculating what it thought each item in the space was doing and > looking for occasional updates.? This sharply reduced network traffic > and made performance quite good -- and this is the core of the > simulation protocols that were developed in the late 1980s and early > 1990s. > > There were some early hiccoughs.? There's an art to figuring out how > often to update and soldiers (who were getting to play the world's > best video game in high end tank simulators) were quick to figure out > glitches and take advantage.? As I recall, one trick was to drive your > tank at maximum speed (something like 60 mph) crosswise in front of > your opponent's tank with your gun pointing ahead -- so they think > you're an unsuspecting target but also have to line up a shot on a > fast moving object.? ?Then, just before you estimate your opponent has > got their shot ready, you stomp on the brakes and turn your turret > towards them and fire.? What the opponent would see is your tank > magically jump backwards and shoot at them. > > Side story: as I understand the politics of simulation, the SIMNET > project had a number of challenges getting the various contractors to > play nicely.? I think BBN finally ended up buying the specialized > graphics display company to reduce friction.? But what made SIMNET a > big success was the NATO Tank Competition.? The US Army historically > did poorly -- someone (the SIMNET PM?), in a stroke of marketing > genius, had SIMNET code the tank course into the simulator and let the > Army team practice on it.? The US won the competition.... > > Craig > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 1:26?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > >? ? Answering Barbara's questions... > >? ? A few years ago, someone who had worked on SIMNET told me that >? ? they had >? ? chosen to use a private network approach rather than running over The >? ? Internet which was shared with others.?? I don't know any of the >? ? details >? ? though. > >? ? My suspicion is that they built a private clone of the Internet, >? ? using >? ? TCP/IP routers, and circuits.? Lots of corporations were deploying >? ? similar private clones for use within their corporation and possibly >? ? some partners. > >? ? For a particular project, a private "intranet" could be carefully >? ? managed to meet the needs for gaming, perhaps using the methodology >? ? learned from the ARPANET. > >? ? The ARPANET had a team of analysts who looked at traffic >? ? statistics and >? ? trends, and designed changes to the ARPANET, e.g., to add or remove >? ? circuits, order higher bancwith, modify protocols, etc. That same >? ? philosophy could be applied to a private Internet, to maintain needed >? ? and consistent performance for a specific application. > >? ? In addition, with all of the switches and computers involved in the >? ? project under the project's control, customized approaches could be >? ? designed and implemented.? Corporations couldn't really do that >? ? when all >? ? their routers came from Cisco, but a military project such as SIMNET >? ? could; perhaps they implemented some TOS functionality, or something >? ? else to address the latency requirements.? With a private system, >? ? even >? ? based on TCP/IP, you could do that. > >? ? Coordinating with the "public" Internet, funding research on general >? ? solutions and implementations, and getting new mechanisms into the >? ? Standards Process was not needed for the project to be successful. A >? ? project-specific solution was sufficient. > >? ? But I don't know any of the actual details about how the SIMNET >? ? communications worked.?? So the above is just speculation.? I suspect >? ? the details are in reports somewhere in DTIC. > >? ? /Jack From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Oct 8 12:02:32 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 19:02:32 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <1404402853.887973.1759949258928@mail.yahoo.com> References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> <1404402853.887973.1759949258928@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1402009372.894167.1759950152411@mail.yahoo.com> Oops that should be much to my dismay, not display. Not sure if I got bit by auto correction.? barbara On Wednesday, October 8, 2025 at 11:47:50 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: Trimming the message.? I am back to not having much luck in getting my messages posted. I remember hearing a little bit about the Defense Simulation INternet.? I didn't know the size of this network. I think I thought of it more like a testbed so probably not very large. I may have a different perspective with what the military, or at least some part of the army, wanted to have happen in the late 80s/early 90s?.? I don't think they were that interested putting effort/money in a private system that couldn't be created from COTS products.? They also wanted to create RFCs. Here are a couple examples. Quite some time ago I mentioned on this list they didn't like IGMP.? They wanted control of group membership.? This wasn't available so I gave them what I call a hack for doing this.? I explicitly told them it should only be used for this demonstration just to get them through it. They should work on getting a better solution.? Much to my display they wrote up the approach in a RFC without telling me about it.?? Another thing they wanted was RSVP in a commercial router. If I remember right, RSVP was not really getting implemented in routers.? I ended up having meetings with Cisco and WellFleet (maybe Wellfleet was Bay at this point in time) to try to get them interested in implementing the protocol.? Wellfleet seemed? interested in pursuing the discussion. My impression was Cisco was not that interested.? (The number of routers that the army said they would probably purchase immediately was not large enough. Cisco was a lot bigger by then.)? I don't think I talked to Proteon or 3com.? I think in the case of Proteon I was having trouble with a getting a good? POC.? For 3com I didn't realize they had a router at the time. I don't know who, if anyone, implemented RSVP as a result of these discussions. I also don't have any knowledge about where the wanted to use the technology. The work was probably done under a task ordering agreement SRI had with CECOM.? I only spent a brief amount of time on each task. barbara ? ? On Tuesday, October 7, 2025 at 01:52:47 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? Defense Simulation Internet -- that's it, I couldn't remember the name. Quick search uncovers this MITRE study with some technical info: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA381147.pdf /Jack On 10/7/25 12:54, Craig Partridge wrote: > As I recall it was called the Defense Simulation INternet (DSIN) or > something close and was carefully engineered to have enough capacity > to link the various simulators.? It made heavy use of UDP. > > Couple of quick comments (some of my college classmates were the core > of the initial implementation team, but I was not on the team, so some > details may be not quite right) about the networking aspects. > > Both network bandwidth and the number of messages was at a premium and > the team figured this out quite quickly.? They were working initially > with the 1983-vintage Internet, with no working?congestion control and > where effective Ethernet speed was about 1Mbps due to network adapter > limitations and Unix kernel limitations. > > They had, initially, an n*n comms pattern, every "thing" in the > simulated space was tracking what every other "thing" was doing to > ensure everyone had a faithful representation of the world.? Each node > drove its own graphics displays (and there were multiple per tank).? > You didn't have to get too many tanks, plus shells and other moving > things, and the network saturated if you sent out an update on every > action. > > So what they did was develop predictive algorithms for each item.? For > instance, if a tank was speeding along, the algorithm predicted it > would continue along its current path and the tank only sent an update > when it deviated from the predicted path.? Each node was, therefore, > calculating what it thought each item in the space was doing and > looking for occasional updates.? This sharply reduced network traffic > and made performance quite good -- and this is the core of the > simulation protocols that were developed in the late 1980s and early > 1990s. > > There were some early hiccoughs.? There's an art to figuring out how > often to update and soldiers (who were getting to play the world's > best video game in high end tank simulators) were quick to figure out > glitches and take advantage.? As I recall, one trick was to drive your > tank at maximum speed (something like 60 mph) crosswise in front of > your opponent's tank with your gun pointing ahead -- so they think > you're an unsuspecting target but also have to line up a shot on a > fast moving object.? ?Then, just before you estimate your opponent has > got their shot ready, you stomp on the brakes and turn your turret > towards them and fire.? What the opponent would see is your tank > magically jump backwards and shoot at them. > > Side story: as I understand the politics of simulation, the SIMNET > project had a number of challenges getting the various contractors to > play nicely.? I think BBN finally ended up buying the specialized > graphics display company to reduce friction.? But what made SIMNET a > big success was the NATO Tank Competition.? The US Army historically > did poorly -- someone (the SIMNET PM?), in a stroke of marketing > genius, had SIMNET code the tank course into the simulator and let the > Army team practice on it.? The US won the competition.... > > Craig > > > > On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 1:26?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > >? ? Answering Barbara's questions... > >? ? A few years ago, someone who had worked on SIMNET told me that >? ? they had >? ? chosen to use a private network approach rather than running over The >? ? Internet which was shared with others.?? I don't know any of the >? ? details >? ? though. > >? ? My suspicion is that they built a private clone of the Internet, >? ? using >? ? TCP/IP routers, and circuits.? Lots of corporations were deploying >? ? similar private clones for use within their corporation and possibly >? ? some partners. > >? ? For a particular project, a private "intranet" could be carefully >? ? managed to meet the needs for gaming, perhaps using the methodology >? ? learned from the ARPANET. > >? ? The ARPANET had a team of analysts who looked at traffic >? ? statistics and >? ? trends, and designed changes to the ARPANET, e.g., to add or remove >? ? circuits, order higher bancwith, modify protocols, etc. That same >? ? philosophy could be applied to a private Internet, to maintain needed >? ? and consistent performance for a specific application. > >? ? In addition, with all of the switches and computers involved in the >? ? project under the project's control, customized approaches could be >? ? designed and implemented.? Corporations couldn't really do that >? ? when all >? ? their routers came from Cisco, but a military project such as SIMNET >? ? could; perhaps they implemented some TOS functionality, or something >? ? else to address the latency requirements.? With a private system, >? ? even >? ? based on TCP/IP, you could do that. > >? ? Coordinating with the "public" Internet, funding research on general >? ? solutions and implementations, and getting new mechanisms into the >? ? Standards Process was not needed for the project to be successful. A >? ? project-specific solution was sufficient. > >? ? But I don't know any of the actual details about how the SIMNET >? ? communications worked.?? So the above is just speculation.? I suspect >? ? the details are in reports somewhere in DTIC. > >? ? /Jack ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Oct 8 12:30:20 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2025 12:30:20 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet at Sea In-Reply-To: <1404402853.887973.1759949258928@mail.yahoo.com> References: <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <852383DE-956E-4C69-8E90-D655C8F411AF@icloud.com> <1404402853.887973.1759949258928@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8e93977c-7f1b-4245-8bab-b1aed9d27511@3kitty.org> That DTIC reference I posted is a Mitre study of the history of the Defense Simulation Internet (DSI).? It gives a lot of details about the system (as of the late 1990s when the report was written), and describes the transition from the initial system into the "Phase II" system in use at the time.? I haven't found anything about the years after the 1990s, so there's a lot of history missing. When I was involved in the early 1980s, the near-term goal was to provide a state-of-the-art, but affordable, system for training. The longer-term vision was that the training system might evolve into one suitable for use in actual field exercises and even combat.?? E.g., I've heard recently that operators in the US are piloting drones halfway around the world, but haven't heard anything about how whatever system they use is designed to enable that kind of tele-operation. COTS was a big goal even in the 1980s.? The DoD was tired of paying for custom solutions and also reluctant to choose proprietary approaches that would lock in a particular vendor.?? Corporate moguls preferred proprietary approaches that built walls to prevent customers from escaping.? But of course the DoD was only one customer, so corporations' marketing didn't pay as much attention as they might, at least in the early days of networking. It sounds like your advice and other pressures eventually got Cisco involved and replaced the initial BBN solution.? I can't tell though whether or not that technology has propagated throughout the regular public Internet world, e.g., for use in gaming, tele-operation, teleconferencing, and such applications outside of whatever the current DSI looks like.?? For example, do the current popular video conferencing "silos" use, or rely on, those standards that DSI uses?? The fact that something is labelled "standard" no longer means it's necessarily broadly implemented. That 1998 report says in part: "The old DSI (Phase I) wide area network (WAN) consisted of out-dated equipment such as Bolt Beranek and Newman (BBN) T/20 routers and proprietary implementations of the Streams Protocol, Version II (ST II). The modernized Phase II DSI replaced these with state of the art equipment and standards-based commercial products. ... Each backbone node is connected to several site nodes. There are a total of 46 tail sites at the present time. Each site node has a Cisco 7204 router with a serial Tl (1.54 Mbps) link to its backbone node. As an example, the configuration of one site (the Joint Precision Strike Demonstration (JPSD) site at Fort Huachuca, Arizona) is shown in Figure 3. We will also describe this configuration below. Typically, a site router has one serial port and four Ethernet ports. One Ethernet interface is assigned a class C Internet Protocol (IP) address range for unclassified simulations. A single host IP address is available for desktop VTC (DVTC) via a second Ethernet interface. A third Ethernet segment connects to a port of the Improved Network Encryption System (INES) box built by the Motorola Corporation. This box helps in providing secure simulations and secure DVTC. Again, there is a complete class C IP address range for secure simulations and a single IP host address for secure DVTC. The simulation Local Area Network (LAN) and the DVTC LAN are connected to two Ethernet ports of a Cisco 4500 router on the red side (classified side). The maximum throughput from the INES is about 1.2 Mbps in both directions (combined) and is achieved by sending large packets (1400 Byte packets) through the INES. For smaller packets, the throughput is much smaller. To overcome this limitation, an aggregator box (which is a Personal Computer (PC) with a Pentium processor running on Free Berkeley System Distribution (BSD) operating system) connects to a third Ethernet interface of the Cisco 4500 router and an INES port (see Figure 3). Multicast traffic from the red side is packaged by the aggregator into larger packets and is shipped to the network via its black site router. Similarly multicast traffic destined for the red side is deaggregated and forwarded to the simulation LAN. ... The DSI phase II network supports standards-based protocols such as RSVP and H.320 VTC. In addition, the DSI network supports IP multicasting, link-state routing, secure and non-secure distributed simulations, and the usual internet and intranet applications such as file transfer, e-mail, telnet, and web-browsing." Jack Haverty On 10/8/25 11:47, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Trimming the message.? I am back to not having much luck in getting my messages posted. > I remember hearing a little bit about the Defense Simulation INternet.? I didn't know the size of this network. I think I thought of it more like a testbed so probably not very large. > I may have a different perspective with what the military, or at least some part of the army, wanted to have happen in the late 80s/early 90s?.? I don't think they were that interested putting effort/money in a private system that couldn't be created from COTS products.? They also wanted to create RFCs. > Here are a couple examples. > Quite some time ago I mentioned on this list they didn't like IGMP.? They wanted control of group membership.? This wasn't available so I gave them what I call a hack for doing this.? I explicitly told them it should only be used for this demonstration just to get them through it. They should work on getting a better solution.? Much to my display they wrote up the approach in a RFC without telling me about it. > Another thing they wanted was RSVP in a commercial router. If I remember right, RSVP was not really getting implemented in routers.? I ended up having meetings with Cisco and WellFleet (maybe Wellfleet was Bay at this point in time) to try to get them interested in implementing the protocol.? Wellfleet seemed? interested in pursuing the discussion. My impression was Cisco was not that interested.? (The number of routers that the army said they would probably purchase immediately was not large enough. Cisco was a lot bigger by then.)? I don't think I talked to Proteon or 3com.? I think in the case of Proteon I was having trouble with a getting a good? POC.? For 3com I didn't realize they had a router at the time. I don't know who, if anyone, implemented RSVP as a result of these discussions. > I also don't have any knowledge about where the wanted to use the technology. The work was probably done under a task ordering agreement SRI had with CECOM.? I only spent a brief amount of time on each task. > barbara > On Tuesday, October 7, 2025 at 01:52:47 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Defense Simulation Internet -- that's it, I couldn't remember the name. > > Quick search uncovers this MITRE study with some technical info: > > https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA381147.pdf > > /Jack > > > On 10/7/25 12:54, Craig Partridge wrote: >> As I recall it was called the Defense Simulation INternet (DSIN) or >> something close and was carefully engineered to have enough capacity >> to link the various simulators.? It made heavy use of UDP. >> >> Couple of quick comments (some of my college classmates were the core >> of the initial implementation team, but I was not on the team, so some >> details may be not quite right) about the networking aspects. >> >> Both network bandwidth and the number of messages was at a premium and >> the team figured this out quite quickly.? They were working initially >> with the 1983-vintage Internet, with no working?congestion control and >> where effective Ethernet speed was about 1Mbps due to network adapter >> limitations and Unix kernel limitations. >> >> They had, initially, an n*n comms pattern, every "thing" in the >> simulated space was tracking what every other "thing" was doing to >> ensure everyone had a faithful representation of the world.? Each node >> drove its own graphics displays (and there were multiple per tank). >> You didn't have to get too many tanks, plus shells and other moving >> things, and the network saturated if you sent out an update on every >> action. >> >> So what they did was develop predictive algorithms for each item.? For >> instance, if a tank was speeding along, the algorithm predicted it >> would continue along its current path and the tank only sent an update >> when it deviated from the predicted path.? Each node was, therefore, >> calculating what it thought each item in the space was doing and >> looking for occasional updates.? This sharply reduced network traffic >> and made performance quite good -- and this is the core of the >> simulation protocols that were developed in the late 1980s and early >> 1990s. >> >> There were some early hiccoughs.? There's an art to figuring out how >> often to update and soldiers (who were getting to play the world's >> best video game in high end tank simulators) were quick to figure out >> glitches and take advantage.? As I recall, one trick was to drive your >> tank at maximum speed (something like 60 mph) crosswise in front of >> your opponent's tank with your gun pointing ahead -- so they think >> you're an unsuspecting target but also have to line up a shot on a >> fast moving object.? ?Then, just before you estimate your opponent has >> got their shot ready, you stomp on the brakes and turn your turret >> towards them and fire.? What the opponent would see is your tank >> magically jump backwards and shoot at them. >> >> Side story: as I understand the politics of simulation, the SIMNET >> project had a number of challenges getting the various contractors to >> play nicely.? I think BBN finally ended up buying the specialized >> graphics display company to reduce friction.? But what made SIMNET a >> big success was the NATO Tank Competition.? The US Army historically >> did poorly -- someone (the SIMNET PM?), in a stroke of marketing >> genius, had SIMNET code the tank course into the simulator and let the >> Army team practice on it.? The US won the competition.... >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 7, 2025 at 1:26?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> wrote: >> >> ? ? Answering Barbara's questions... >> >> ? ? A few years ago, someone who had worked on SIMNET told me that >> ? ? they had >> ? ? chosen to use a private network approach rather than running over The >> ? ? Internet which was shared with others.?? I don't know any of the >> ? ? details >> ? ? though. >> >> ? ? My suspicion is that they built a private clone of the Internet, >> ? ? using >> ? ? TCP/IP routers, and circuits.? Lots of corporations were deploying >> ? ? similar private clones for use within their corporation and possibly >> ? ? some partners. >> >> ? ? For a particular project, a private "intranet" could be carefully >> ? ? managed to meet the needs for gaming, perhaps using the methodology >> ? ? learned from the ARPANET. >> >> ? ? The ARPANET had a team of analysts who looked at traffic >> ? ? statistics and >> ? ? trends, and designed changes to the ARPANET, e.g., to add or remove >> ? ? circuits, order higher bancwith, modify protocols, etc. That same >> ? ? philosophy could be applied to a private Internet, to maintain needed >> ? ? and consistent performance for a specific application. >> >> ? ? In addition, with all of the switches and computers involved in the >> ? ? project under the project's control, customized approaches could be >> ? ? designed and implemented.? Corporations couldn't really do that >> ? ? when all >> ? ? their routers came from Cisco, but a military project such as SIMNET >> ? ? could; perhaps they implemented some TOS functionality, or something >> ? ? else to address the latency requirements.? With a private system, >> ? ? even >> ? ? based on TCP/IP, you could do that. >> >> ? ? Coordinating with the "public" Internet, funding research on general >> ? ? solutions and implementations, and getting new mechanisms into the >> ? ? Standards Process was not needed for the project to be successful. A >> ? ? project-specific solution was sufficient. >> >> ? ? But I don't know any of the actual details about how the SIMNET >> ? ? communications worked.?? So the above is just speculation.? I suspect >> ? ? the details are in reports somewhere in DTIC. >> >> ? ? /Jack > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Oct 8 18:20:17 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2025 14:20:17 +1300 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is online In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34e63aa2-0e6d-4e87-9a16-b42e81bcbe14@gmail.com> Forwarded FYI -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is online Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2025 10:45:23 +0000 From: Asger Harlung via Members Reply-To: Asger Harlung To: Digital Culture , discussion at communicationhistory.org , air-l at listserv.aoir.org , members at SIGCIS.org , dh at groupes.renater.fr , mailinglist at ecrea.eu To whom it may concern, The Editorial Staff of Internet Histories is pleased to announce, that Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is now online. Please notice: All research articles in this volume are open access. The full volume may be accessed here: https://www.tandfonline.com/toc/rint20/9/3 A list of the content is included below. If you have an interesting piece on web or Internet history, please submit @InternetHistor http://www.tandfonline.com/rint20, or email Managing Editor Niels Br?gger nb at cc.au.dk With kind regards on behalf of the editorial team, Asger Harlung, editorial assistant, Internet Histories - - - - - - - - - - List of articles in Vol. 9(3): Research Articles An early Web history of vaccine skeptical digital rhetorics | Open Access Miles C. Coleman & Will Mari Patterns of piracy: Sci-Hub and Sweden 2011?2018 | Open Access Zakayo Kjellstr?m Brilliant Digital: a 1990s Australian videogames studio that brought Xena, KISS, and Popeye together in the Multipath Movies experimental streaming service | Open Access Helen Stuckey & Stephanie Harkin Powell.pps: close & distant reading of primary sources in web archives | Open Access Trevor Owens, Benjamin Charles Germain Lee & Jonah Estess Book Reviews Averting the Digital Dark Age: How Archivists, Librarians, and Technologists Built the Web a Memory, by Ian Milligan Reviewer: Kieran Hegarty Tor: From the Dark Web to the Future of Privacy, by Ben Collier Reviewer: Ashley E. Gorham From gnu at toad.com Thu Oct 9 11:52:26 2025 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2025 11:52:26 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <34e63aa2-0e6d-4e87-9a16-b42e81bcbe14@gmail.com> References: <34e63aa2-0e6d-4e87-9a16-b42e81bcbe14@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5271.1760035946@hop.toad.com> Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > Please notice: All research articles in this volume are open access. Please notice: All statements by academic publishers must be very carefully parsed. I guess book reviews are not "research articles". This journal is published by Taylor & Francis, the notorious rapist of academic copyrights. Not aware of that yet, I followed Brian's link to the "full volume", and followed a link to the book review of: Averting the Digital Dark Age: How Archivists, Librarians, and Technologists Built the Web a Memory, by Ian Milligan Reviewer: Kieran Hegarty It gave me a teaser first-page, wanted me to "log in", and offered me the choice to pay USD 56 for a downloadable PDF of the book review (which they would then lock up 48 hours later so I couldn't get it any more), or to pay USD 157 for downloadable PDFs (for 30 days) to every article in the issue (an even worse sucker deal, since the main articles are all "open access" and already available for free). Indeed, I then read one of the main articles, and it was freely readable without logging in. Though to actually download an "open access" PDF, I had to first navigate through their proprietary Javascript PDF-reader software, whose apparent job is to discourage you from downloading the PDF into your browser or filesystem (and to prevent automated web-crawlers like the Internet Archive or the Library of Congress from archiving the "open access" PDF). Why would anyone on this list choose to contribute to such an enterprise? The whole thing is set up as a scam, to draw in authors by claiming to offer "open access" but actually still including proprietary copyrighted information in every volume. Thus the volumes of the journal themselves are NEVER open access, they are proprietary. They can never be archived for posterity, instead only streamed from their corporate owner until they tire of provisioning that access. This is a perversion of the process of archiving history, and a perversion of "open access" academic publishing. It contributes to the "digital dark age" rather than averting it. John From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Oct 9 12:30:05 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2025 12:30:05 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <5271.1760035946@hop.toad.com> References: <34e63aa2-0e6d-4e87-9a16-b42e81bcbe14@gmail.com> <5271.1760035946@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> A similar situation exists in places like IEEE.? Bob Hinden, Alan Sheltzer, and I wrote an article in 1983: https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1654494 It was about 10 pages, titled "The DARPA Internet: Interconnecting Heterogeneous Computer Networks with Gateways".?? You can get a PDF but it will cost you $15 if you're an IEEE member, and $35 if you're not.? Two to three dollars per page seems like a high price to pay for history.?? But as near as I can tell if you buy a PDF you can keep it forever. Question out of curiousity -- who owns the rights to the material we all post on this forum??? The authors?? The ISOC?? The public? /Jack Haverty On 10/9/25 11:52, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> Please notice: All research articles in this volume are open access. > Please notice: All statements by academic publishers must be very carefully > parsed. > > I guess book reviews are not "research articles". This journal is > published by Taylor & Francis, the notorious rapist of academic > copyrights. Not aware of that yet, I followed Brian's link to the "full > volume", and followed a link to the book review of: > > Averting the Digital Dark Age: How Archivists, Librarians, and Technologists Built the Web a Memory, by Ian Milligan > Reviewer: Kieran Hegarty > > It gave me a teaser first-page, wanted me to "log in", and offered me > the choice to pay USD 56 for a downloadable PDF of the book review > (which they would then lock up 48 hours later so I couldn't get it any > more), or to pay USD 157 for downloadable PDFs (for 30 days) to every > article in the issue (an even worse sucker deal, since the main articles > are all "open access" and already available for free). Indeed, I then > read one of the main articles, and it was freely readable without > logging in. Though to actually download an "open access" PDF, I had to > first navigate through their proprietary Javascript PDF-reader software, > whose apparent job is to discourage you from downloading the PDF into > your browser or filesystem (and to prevent automated web-crawlers like > the Internet Archive or the Library of Congress from archiving the "open > access" PDF). > > Why would anyone on this list choose to contribute to such an > enterprise? The whole thing is set up as a scam, to draw in authors by > claiming to offer "open access" but actually still including proprietary > copyrighted information in every volume. Thus the volumes of the > journal themselves are NEVER open access, they are proprietary. They can > never be archived for posterity, instead only streamed from their > corporate owner until they tire of provisioning that access. This is a > perversion of the process of archiving history, and a perversion of > "open access" academic publishing. It contributes to the "digital dark > age" rather than averting it. > > John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From touch at strayalpha.com Thu Oct 9 12:37:18 2025 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2025 12:37:18 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: > On Oct 9, 2025, at 12:30?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Question out of curiousity -- who owns the rights to the material we all post on this forum? The authors? The ISOC? The public? The authors, far as I know, but it?s posted for public access. Joe From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Oct 9 13:43:36 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 09:43:36 +1300 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <5271.1760035946@hop.toad.com> References: <34e63aa2-0e6d-4e87-9a16-b42e81bcbe14@gmail.com> <5271.1760035946@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <575af588-49e5-4088-9e41-8deebc6397d1@gmail.com> John, I passed it on without comment, but I fully agree. Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter On 10-Oct-25 07:52, John Gilmore wrote: > Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> Please notice: All research articles in this volume are open access. > > Please notice: All statements by academic publishers must be very carefully > parsed. > > I guess book reviews are not "research articles". This journal is > published by Taylor & Francis, the notorious rapist of academic > copyrights. Not aware of that yet, I followed Brian's link to the "full > volume", and followed a link to the book review of: > > Averting the Digital Dark Age: How Archivists, Librarians, and Technologists Built the Web a Memory, by Ian Milligan > Reviewer: Kieran Hegarty > > It gave me a teaser first-page, wanted me to "log in", and offered me > the choice to pay USD 56 for a downloadable PDF of the book review > (which they would then lock up 48 hours later so I couldn't get it any > more), or to pay USD 157 for downloadable PDFs (for 30 days) to every > article in the issue (an even worse sucker deal, since the main articles > are all "open access" and already available for free). Indeed, I then > read one of the main articles, and it was freely readable without > logging in. Though to actually download an "open access" PDF, I had to > first navigate through their proprietary Javascript PDF-reader software, > whose apparent job is to discourage you from downloading the PDF into > your browser or filesystem (and to prevent automated web-crawlers like > the Internet Archive or the Library of Congress from archiving the "open > access" PDF). > > Why would anyone on this list choose to contribute to such an > enterprise? The whole thing is set up as a scam, to draw in authors by > claiming to offer "open access" but actually still including proprietary > copyrighted information in every volume. Thus the volumes of the > journal themselves are NEVER open access, they are proprietary. They can > never be archived for posterity, instead only streamed from their > corporate owner until they tire of provisioning that access. This is a > perversion of the process of archiving history, and a perversion of > "open access" academic publishing. It contributes to the "digital dark > age" rather than averting it. > > John From touch at strayalpha.com Thu Oct 9 13:46:18 2025 From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2025 13:46:18 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <575af588-49e5-4088-9e41-8deebc6397d1@gmail.com> References: <34e63aa2-0e6d-4e87-9a16-b42e81bcbe14@gmail.com> <5271.1760035946@hop.toad.com> <575af588-49e5-4088-9e41-8deebc6397d1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08E1FA44-B2BD-470B-A06D-F22B69CEB081@strayalpha.com> Though I appreciate the frustration of these issues, this discussion is straying from the focus of this list. Joe (list owner/admin) ? Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com > On Oct 9, 2025, at 1:43?PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > >> John, I passed it on without comment, but I fully agree. Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter On 10-Oct-25 07:52, John Gilmore wrote: > Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history > wrote: >> Please notice: All research articles in this volume are open access. > Please notice: All statements by academic publishers must be very carefully > parsed. > I guess book reviews are not "research articles". This journal is > published by Taylor & Francis, the notorious rapist of academic From nigel at channelisles.net Fri Oct 10 00:16:13 2025 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 08:16:13 +0100 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> It's like any mailing list, surely. Your copyright is yours on anything you write. We are aware the mailing list archives are, rightly, available to be read, but that doesn't give anyone any rights to reproduce the material further. On 09/10/2025 20:37, Joe Touch via Internet-history wrote: > >> On Oct 9, 2025, at 12:30?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> Question out of curiousity -- who owns the rights to the material we all post on this forum? The authors? The ISOC? The public? > The authors, far as I know, but it?s posted for public access. > > Joe From el at lisse.na Fri Oct 10 02:25:17 2025 From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 11:25:17 +0200 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <9b0bb287-eede-4249-a605-2de604acfeb0@Spark> Nigel, I think you are wrong, actually, fair use with attribution would be allowed. In particular for research. Not that I have contributed much myself, but I would have no objection whatsoever against my emails being used even for books. What I don't like are off-topic contributions and most certainly blatant marketing. And probably that goes for most of us. -- Sent from my iPhone On Oct 10, 2025 at 09:16 +0200, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history , wrote: > It's like any mailing list, surely. > > Your copyright is yours on anything you write. > > We are aware the mailing list archives are, rightly, available to be > read, but that doesn't give anyone any rights to reproduce the material > further. > > > On 09/10/2025 20:37, Joe Touch via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > On Oct 9, 2025, at 12:30?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > > > Question out of curiousity -- who owns the rights to the material we all post on this forum? The authors? The ISOC? The public? > > > > > The authors, far as I know, but it?s posted for public access. > > > > Joe > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From nigel at channelisles.net Fri Oct 10 03:03:16 2025 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 11:03:16 +0100 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <9b0bb287-eede-4249-a605-2de604acfeb0@Spark> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <9b0bb287-eede-4249-a605-2de604acfeb0@Spark> Message-ID: <9605d526-5d1b-4a22-be05-382c53907772@channelisles.net> As Karl says "fair use" has been grossly misused. But of course one would not object too much. But the fact is you retain your copyright in anything you write. On 10/10/2025 10:25, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: > Nigel, > > I think you are wrong, actually, fair use with attribution would be allowed. In particular for research. > > Not that I have contributed much myself, but I would have no objection whatsoever against my emails being used even for books. > > What I don't like are off-topic contributions and most certainly blatant marketing. > > And probably that goes for most of us. > > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 10, 2025 at 09:16 +0200, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history, wrote: > >> It's like any mailing list, surely. >> >> Your copyright is yours on anything you write. >> >> We are aware the mailing list archives are, rightly, available to be >> read, but that doesn't give anyone any rights to reproduce the material >> further. >> >> >> On 09/10/2025 20:37, Joe Touch via Internet-history wrote: >> >>>>> On Oct 9, 2025, at 12:30?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Question out of curiousity -- who owns the rights to the material we all post on this forum? The authors? The ISOC? The public? >>> The authors, far as I know, but it?s posted for public access. >>> >>> Joe >>> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe:https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Oct 10 03:14:51 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 10:14:51 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <89b2b926-3bcd-4daf-8153-c5ec70fd97bd@dcrocker.net> On 10/10/2025 3:16 AM, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history wrote: > It's like any mailing list, surely. IANAL, of course, but I suspect mailing lists can and do vary on this, no matter what is common practice. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Oct 10 03:17:47 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 10:17:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <9605d526-5d1b-4a22-be05-382c53907772@channelisles.net> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <9b0bb287-eede-4249-a605-2de604acfeb0@Spark> <9605d526-5d1b-4a22-be05-382c53907772@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <6cb2f7db-dd20-4689-9287-6b5574c062c6@dcrocker.net> On 10/10/2025 6:03 AM, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history wrote: > But of course one would not object too much. But the fact is you > retain your copyright in anything you write. by way of example that this topic can be complicated: www.findlaw.com Who Legally Owns Your Facebook Posts? - FindLaw <#> Facebook users may be convinced that they "own" whatever content they post to Facebook, but the legal reality is a little bit different. If you read Facebook's legal terms of service, you'll find that "[y]ou own all of the content and information you post on Facebook," but with some very specific and important caveats. So what does it mean to legally "own" your Facebook posts? ? https://www.findlaw.com/legalblogs/law-and-life/who-legally-owns-your-facebook-posts/ d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From nigel at channelisles.net Fri Oct 10 03:22:54 2025 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 11:22:54 +0100 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <89b2b926-3bcd-4daf-8153-c5ec70fd97bd@dcrocker.net> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <89b2b926-3bcd-4daf-8153-c5ec70fd97bd@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Sure they do, but in that case it would be made clear in the list charter. no?? On 10/10/2025 11:14, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 10/10/2025 3:16 AM, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history wrote: >> It's like any mailing list, surely. > > > IANAL, of course, but I suspect mailing lists can and do vary on this, > no matter what is common practice. > > d/ > From el at lisse.na Fri Oct 10 04:48:45 2025 From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 13:48:45 +0200 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <89b2b926-3bcd-4daf-8153-c5ec70fd97bd@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <47a398f4-82a2-4a57-9b41-e43138248e4b@Spark> It's starting to get a little off topic now. el -- Sent from my iPhone On Oct 10, 2025 at 12:23 +0200, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history , wrote: > Sure they do, but in that case it would be made clear in the list > charter. no?? > > > On 10/10/2025 11:14, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > On 10/10/2025 3:16 AM, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > It's like any mailing list, surely. > > > > > > > > > IANAL, of course, but I suspect mailing lists can and do vary on this, > > no matter what is common practice. > > > > d/ From touch at strayalpha.com Fri Oct 10 05:53:12 2025 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 05:53:12 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <47a398f4-82a2-4a57-9b41-e43138248e4b@Spark> References: <47a398f4-82a2-4a57-9b41-e43138248e4b@Spark> Message-ID: Agreed. > On Oct 10, 2025, at 4:49?AM, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: > > ?It's starting to get a little off topic now. > > el > > > > > -- > Sent from my iPhone >> On Oct 10, 2025 at 12:23 +0200, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history , wrote: >> >> Sure they do, but in that case it would be made clear in the list >> charter. no?? >> >> >>> On 10/10/2025 11:14, Dave Crocker wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/10/2025 3:16 AM, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>>>> It's like any mailing list, surely. >>>> >>> >>> >>> IANAL, of course, but I suspect mailing lists can and do vary on this, >>> no matter what is common practice. >>> >>> d/ > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From westfw at mac.com Fri Oct 10 13:51:58 2025 From: westfw at mac.com (William Westfield) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2025 13:51:58 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> > It's like any mailing list, surely. > Your copyright is yours on anything you write. > We are aware the mailing list archives are, rightly, available to be read, but that doesn't give anyone any rights to reproduce the material further. Historically (back on topic?) this has been a feature and a plague on important pieces of internet history. In theory, it might be nice to publish a book ?collected thoughts from Human-Nets a seminal discussion of networking possibilities?, or ?constructions hints from rec.models.rockets? or ?historical bits of CS history gleaned from the SU-SAIL backup archive.? But all that content is ?copyright by the original authors?, many of whom were posting from school/university accounts with ?anonymized? usernames , or otherwise essentially untraceable identities. (Go ahead and ask UPenn who ?westfw at wharton-10, circa 1980, actually was!) So negotiating permission to publish ?their? content in any new format is essentially impossible. At least it seems possible to host archives of such things in their original form (unedited?) BillW From touch at strayalpha.com Sat Oct 11 09:12:09 2025 From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 09:12:09 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> Message-ID: <439B8EA0-3785-489A-B33F-744D42C7126D@strayalpha.com> > On Oct 10, 2025, at 1:51?PM, William Westfield via Internet-history wrote: > > >> It's like any mailing list, surely. >> Your copyright is yours on anything you write. >> We are aware the mailing list archives are, rightly, available to be read, but that doesn't give anyone any rights to reproduce the material further. > > Historically (back on topic?) this has been a feature and a plague on important pieces of internet history. > ... > > At least it seems possible to host archives of such things in their original form (unedited?) That would be a copy and require permission, either of all the list posters or at a minimum from the list owner. Some lists make this clear in their charter, but we haven?t largely because this list was never part of any formal organization that would have imposed such a policy. I don?t know how I would answer such a request. This list is for *discussions* of Internet History; it is not itself an Internet archive. I appreciate that many of the posts could be interpreted as useful for the latter, but they need to be posted elsewhere for that to happen. Joe From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Oct 11 09:42:12 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 09:42:12 -0700 Subject: [ih] DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: <158073561.408844.1759857899939@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724@mail.yahoo.com> <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <0F7B79AA-C8A5-4F6D-88EB-819F157F7B00@icloud.com> <158073561.408844.1759857899939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There were some applications of multicast to distributed music performances in the 1990s, such as the following: https://www.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/2001-August/001314.html The paper is available from ResearchGate. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339055474_Distributed_Music_A_Foray_into_Networked_Performance Greg From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 10:09:56 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 17:09:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: References: <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724@mail.yahoo.com> <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <0F7B79AA-C8A5-4F6D-88EB-819F157F7B00@icloud.com> <158073561.408844.1759857899939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1445797999.1929410.1760202596019@mail.yahoo.com> I know I would have liked to have been a listener but I was told they were keeping the traffic load low (You could reserve time on the testbed if you wanted it for yourself ). I believe this is a paper about the protocol that was used.? Julio told me about the demo at the time.? I didn't know Craig and Debbie were involved with the work.?? J. Escobar, D. Deutsch and C. Patridge, "Flow synchronization protocol," [Conference Record] GLOBECOM '92 - Communications for Global Users: IEEE, Orlando, FL, USA, 1992, pp. 1381-1387 vol.3, doi: 10.1109/GLOCOM.1992.276617.? Craig,? looks like the source for the cite information had a typo regarding your name.? ? barbara? On Saturday, October 11, 2025 at 09:42:35 AM PDT, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: There were some applications of multicast to distributed music performances in the 1990s, such as the following: https://www.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/2001-August/001314.html The paper is available from ResearchGate. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339055474_Distributed_Music_A_Foray_into_Networked_Performance Greg -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Oct 11 10:44:18 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 17:44:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> References: <502575512.1923531.1759180080212@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <131410769.1950651.1760204658870@mail.yahoo.com> In case I may have given people? the wrong idea about DARTnet sites. ?I just want to clarify that I don't think there was a DARTnet node on the USC campus. I believe it was at ISI west (Marina del Rey).? For some reason, only USC always pops up in my head when I think of Deborah Estrin during that time period.? ISI is part of USC in case you don't know.? barbara On Monday, September 29, 2025 at 02:08:00 PM PDT, Barbara Denny wrote: There might be some information in dtic on this topic.? I think a lot of early experimentation was done on DARTnet (DARPA T1 testbed), including multicast (DVMRP). I know I tried sending video using the Sun videopix card across to BBN on DARTnet to see how well it might work? when the card was released (Charlie Lynn was always great in helping me do stuff) and then a little more testing later with Ron Fredrick? at PARC when he heard what I had done. He was developing his own video capture card. My experiment was probably only mentioned in a monthly report. Following the contracting thread to get relevant reports might be difficult. For example , SRI's work was done under a contract that had little obvious relationship to DARTnet from the title.? Besides SRI, DARTnet folks included people? from ISI east and west,? Xerox PARC, LBL, BBN, USC, MIT and UDel.? Hope I didn't forget anyone. Mike St. Johns and Paul Mockapetris were the project managers if that helps you narrow down the possibilities.? I am not sure if there was an earlier PM as I took over for SRI when Paul McKenney left. Of course, Henning Schulzrinne did some early work too but he was not part of DARTnet. He might still have some more records from that earlier time period. barbara On Monday, September 29, 2025 at 01:13:46 PM PDT, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: One of the aspects of Internet history that is not much discussed is the evolution of the net to carry audio and video. It is sad that Steve Casner died far too soon - he was a major force in so much of the transformation of the net into what it is today, an alternative to broadcast radio and TV. (It's kinda natural that I fell into network audio/video - my grandfather was a fake radio maker.? He made "Pilco", not "Philco" radios that he sold out of the trunk of his car between NY and Boston during the 1930's.? And my father was involved with the development and deployment of color TV in the early 1950s.? And my extended family has always been deep into the performing arts.) Of course there were the early experiments by SRI with the packet radio van driving up and down US 101. But there's not much talk about how we experimented with IP multicast, early implementations of audio/video and shared whiteboard (vic, vat, sd?? Van Jacobson and others did some seriously good work!)? And how Real Audio (was that the correct name?) kinda dominated by doing non-muliticast streaming. Steve Casner, Chia-Chee Kuan, Scott Firestone, and I at Precept Software (under the direction of Judy Estrin) wrestled mightily with the difficulties of IP multicast, poor media clocks in sending and receiving devices, codecs, mpeg streams, imperfect flows of UDP packets, network path resource reservation [RSVP, "integrated services"].? We actually created something pretty good - although my retinas would leap out of eyes and strangle me if I ever were to watch our two test videos - Lion King or Blade Runner - again. Netflix was started very close to my former office in Scotts Valley - and although it was not in a garage, it's space wasn't too many steps better than a garage.? The post office we use in Scotts Valley is rather large for that small city - which is probably because that post office handled many, perhaps all, of those red envelopes. My wife and I did an interview with the surviving members of the first Internet Band, Severe Tire Damage and created a quite poor video about it (my wife and I are live theatre people; we knew little about cameras, lights, and microphones.)? It was interesting how that band and that interview touched matters that have become fairly major issues, such as copyright, permission to transmit, bandwidth consumption, and, of course, the Palo Alto internet party scene (which paled only to the Interop shownet party scene which extended from Tokyo to Santa Cruz to the Youghiogheny River to DC [we rented the Air and Space museum] to Paris.? The role of Single Malt Scotch in the history of the net is a topic that deserves exploration.) Here's a link to a page with the video and commentary about Severe Tire Damage.? Please forgive the poor video and sound quality, we were neophytes at this stuff. https://www.history-of-the-internet.org/videos/std/ For the last 30 years I've been chatting up people in the artistic (mostly theatre) and technical communities on ways we can transform Internet media to break the fourth wall and create the kind of emotional relationship between performance and audience that we can get with live theatre.? I should not have been, but I was, surprised when people began to realize that the biggest customer for that kind of thing would probably be industries that deal in rude content. ? ? ? ? --karl-- From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Oct 11 13:53:13 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 13:53:13 -0700 Subject: [ih] DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: <1445797999.1929410.1760202596019@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724@mail.yahoo.com> <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <0F7B79AA-C8A5-4F6D-88EB-819F157F7B00@icloud.com> <158073561.408844.1759857899939@mail.yahoo.com> <1445797999.1929410.1760202596019@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I also want to note that Dave T?ht?s bufferbloat work was motivated in part by early distributed music performances. https://www.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/28_towards_imperceptible_latency.pdf > On Oct 11, 2025, at 10:09?AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > > I know I would have liked to have been a listener but I was told they were keeping the traffic load low (You could reserve time on the testbed if you wanted it for yourself ). > I believe this is a paper about the protocol that was used. Julio told me about the demo at the time. I didn't know Craig and Debbie were involved with the work. > J. Escobar, D. Deutsch and C. Patridge, "Flow synchronization protocol," [Conference Record] GLOBECOM '92 - Communications for Global Users: IEEE, Orlando, FL, USA, 1992, pp. 1381-1387 vol.3, doi: 10.1109/GLOCOM.1992.276617. > Craig, looks like the source for the cite information had a typo regarding your name. > barbara From karl at iwl.com Sat Oct 11 14:07:06 2025 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 14:07:06 -0700 Subject: [ih] DARTnet: Evolution of Internet audio and video In-Reply-To: References: <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <2109382118.4461946.1759772700724@mail.yahoo.com> <739479658.4471628.1759773174788@mail.yahoo.com> <0F7B79AA-C8A5-4F6D-88EB-819F157F7B00@icloud.com> <158073561.408844.1759857899939@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Judy Estrin gathered several of us together in the mid '90s to form Precept Software.? (The "us" consisted of Steve Casner,?Chia-Chee Kuan, Scott Firestone, myself, and others.) We set forth to do (and we actually did) RTP/RTCP based entertainment grade (2K/DVD quality) media distribution over IP multicast. Apart from fighting the troubles of classic multi-source IP multicast (single-source had not been invented yet), our main difficulty was getting video and sound synchronized.? (We did not try to synchronize across multiple receiving platforms - so going into our test area was to see/hear a cacophony of each machine synced with itself but all of the machines unsynchronized with one another.? I find modern speaker systems, such as the Amazon echo, to be quite amazing in the synchronization of multiple receivers.) When doing music or another form of entertainment it is necessary to distinguish two broad cases: interactive (where human participants interact with one another, enduring the cross-net latency, and presentation, where there is no back/forth interaction, at least not in a conversational/back-forth manner.) The latter form is much easier; the former can quickly become impossible because our human vision and hearing are trained by a billion years of evolutionary pressures in a non-electronic world. Our great enemy to good conversational use or for synchronized playback was time, accurate, precise time.? And not just accurate and precise, but also stable ticking of the clock - as the cost of network based parts (such as an ESP-32) drops the quality of the clock in them tends to erode.? Back when Casner and I were doing this stuff we measured clock drifts of as much as +/- 5% - that's three minutes over an hour for each machine, six minutes per hour if the drift between sender and receiver is 5% in opposing directions. (Even my semi-pro video and sound gear, without SMPTE sync, can drift by a video frame time [about 33.4ms] over the course of 30 to 60 minutes. [I remain impressed at how useful is that most simple of tools - a clap board.]) For voice one can often stretch or squeeze moments of silence, but for music that has seriously bad effects. Grace Hopper used a piece of rope roughly one foot long to illustrate one nanosecond travel for light in a vacuum. That same one foot (roughly) piece of rope illustrates one millisecond of travel of sound through air at sea level. (Theatrical sound system designers know this quite well - our main performance space has about 75ms sound latency from the stage to the back of the house.) I have long wanted to talk to some legislature or court about repealing, or at least increasing, the speed of light. I have been impressed at the quality of some distributed music stuff - such as is done by the Playing For Change folks - but they are playing against a recorded, pre-distributed metronome and the tracks all combined later. I have been experimenting with cheap GPS time synch (mostly on Rasberry Pi's) - each machine runs within a few hundred microseconds of "correct" time.? I am doing this to create a kind of network panopticon that can be used as both an early warning system for troubles (I am hoping to adopt some techniques from astronomy) as well as a tool to isolate where those troubles lay. (Yes, I am aware of RIPE's ATLAS system.) ? ? ? ? --karl-- On 10/11/25 9:42 AM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > There were some applications of multicast to distributed music performances in the 1990s, such as the following: > > https://www.postel.org/pipermail/end2end-interest/2001-August/001314.html > > The paper is available from ResearchGate. > > https://www.researchgate.net/publication/339055474_Distributed_Music_A_Foray_into_Networked_Performance > > Greg From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Oct 11 15:21:41 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 15:21:41 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <90e2de37-62c7-4bbd-86b5-f7e3b263148b@dcrocker.net> References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <90e2de37-62c7-4bbd-86b5-f7e3b263148b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Oct 1, 2025, at 6:03?PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 10/1/2025 6:00 PM, John Demco via Internet-history wrote: >> I was at UBC back then, and among other things I managed CDNnet. Its email service was used for a number of purposes we didn?t initially foresee. For example, in addition to the UUCP-related traffic Lyndon mentions, it was used by clients of the Canadian Microelectronics Corporation to assist in chip design, checking, and fabrication. > > cool. I seem to recall that ISI similarly was shipping chip design via email. Maybe with you guys? > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social Reminds me of MOSIS, the chip design tool and service suite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSIS Greg From dhc at dcrocker.net Sat Oct 11 15:32:58 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2025 22:32:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: References: <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <4a61aa0bf88f27cc@orthanc.ca> <90e2de37-62c7-4bbd-86b5-f7e3b263148b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <895ff551-5d9b-456b-a3fa-508775c707c4@dcrocker.net> On 10/11/2025 3:21 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > Reminds me of MOSIS, the chip design tool and service suite. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSIS ahh, yes, thanks.? That's the name for it I remember. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From westfw at mac.com Sun Oct 12 15:56:37 2025 From: westfw at mac.com (William Westfield) Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2025 15:56:37 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <439B8EA0-3785-489A-B33F-744D42C7126D@strayalpha.com> References: <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> <439B8EA0-3785-489A-B33F-744D42C7126D@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: <52771916-BF51-4F13-9127-2D977A68AEC1@mac.com> > > That would be a copy and require permission, either of all the list posters Yes. nearly impossible to get, as I said. > or at a minimum from the list owner. Some lists make this clear in their charter Yeah, I suppose that lists/fora with particularly high opinions of their worth might include this in their terms of use, now that there is generally more awareness of ?intellectual property and adjacent legalities? than there was in the old days, but it was/is a big problem with older lists, and presumably the more recent ?forget me? laws are going to have an unfortunate impact as well. (The Arduino forum recently proposed a plan to automatically ?anonymize? usernames in posts from people who hadn?t logged in in ?a long time.? This was not well received!) BillW From jeanjour at comcast.net Mon Oct 13 05:12:14 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 08:12:14 -0400 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3550DC6D-C124-41EE-8823-755D6270BA48@comcast.net> Sorry to be so late, just catching up. As you know, X.25 only defined the *interface* between a ?DCE? (host) and a ?DTE? (router). The network could do anything it wanted in between. Of course, most PTTs didn?t exactly. Although there was some variation in what an Ack meant: was the ack from the remote DTE, the remote DCE, or the local DCE. In Datapac?s case, I believe the Ack was from the local DTE. Also, one has to be careful about the term ?interface?. To the CCITT, it meant between boxes, to the rest of us it meant API, back when API meant API, i.e., the calls at the layer boundary. Take care, John > On Oct 2, 2025, at 16:00, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > On 03-Oct-25 06:41, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: >> John Levine via Internet-history writes: >>> I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running >>> into anyone who used it over X.25. >>> >>> This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp >>> had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: >> Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via >> PADs. It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff >> flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget. And >> it was certainly used, at least in Canada. Before CA*net was formed, >> the U of Alberta, UBC, U of Waterloo, and probably U of Toronto, >> all swapped mail and Usenet over Datapac via UUCP running 'f'. When >> I set up APSS (Alberta Disaster Services), I set up a UUCP link >> over Datapac with the UofA running 'f' protocol to relay news amd >> mail. It was a real thing. > > The irony being that Datapac was merely an X.25 wrapper on an underlying > connectionless packet-switched network [1] [2]. > > As others have said, IP over X.25 was fairly common in Europe, for financial > or political reasons. In fact several European efforts at everything-over-X.25 > can be found in the two relevant history books [3] [4]. > > Brian > > [1] https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/research/groups/CDMTCS/researchreports/download.php?selected-id=884 > [2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6592834 > [3] http://ictconsulting.ch/reports/european-research-internet-history.pdf > [4] https://doi.org/10.1002/9783527629336 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From johnl at iecc.com Mon Oct 13 12:38:58 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 13 Oct 2025 15:38:58 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <52771916-BF51-4F13-9127-2D977A68AEC1@mac.com> References: <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <439B8EA0-3785-489A-B33F-744D42C7126D@strayalpha.com> <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> <52771916-BF51-4F13-9127-2D977A68AEC1@mac.com> Message-ID: <20251013193858.9B483E16EFC0@ary.local> It appears that William Westfield via Internet-history said: >> >> That would be a copy and require permission, either of all the list posters > >Yes. nearly impossible to get, as I said. On a list this old, impossible in practice. Some of the contributors have died, the rights belong to their estates or heirs, and the work to track them down and explain what you want and get them to agree would be absurdly difficult. >> or at a minimum from the list owner. Some lists make this clear in their charter > >Yeah, I suppose that lists/fora with particularly high opinions of their worth might include this in their terms of >use, ... I have moderated the comp.compilers usenet newsgroup for almost 40 years. Every post has gotten the autoresponse below. Once in a while someone writes to me demanding that I delete an ancient post from the archives. I ignore them. R's, John When you send a message to comp.compilers, I understand that to mean that you want me to post it to usenet, which means it will be sent to tens of thousands of potential readers at thousands of computers all around the world. It may also appear in a printed comp.compilers annual and other books, in the ACM SIGPLAN Notices and other magazines, in on-line and off-line archives, CD-ROMs, and anywhere else that some reader decides to use it. If you don't want me to post something, please send it instead to compilers-request. From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Oct 13 13:08:35 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 09:08:35 +1300 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <3550DC6D-C124-41EE-8823-755D6270BA48@comcast.net> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> <3550DC6D-C124-41EE-8823-755D6270BA48@comcast.net> Message-ID: <108d29e6-f9da-43ec-a4d0-55299f31c28f@gmail.com> On 14-Oct-25 01:12, John Day wrote: > Sorry to be so late, just catching up. > > As you know, X.25 only defined the *interface* between a ?DCE? (host) and a ?DTE? (router). The network could do anything it wanted in between. Correct, of course. And further, X.75 defined the interface between two X.25 networks (e.g. at international borders). I don't know what X.75 did about Acks. Brian > Of course, most PTTs didn?t exactly. Although there was some variation in what an Ack meant: was the ack from the remote DTE, the remote DCE, or the local DCE. > > In Datapac?s case, I believe the Ack was from the local DTE. > > Also, one has to be careful about the term ?interface?. To the CCITT, it meant between boxes, to the rest of us it meant API, back when API meant API, i.e., the calls at the layer boundary. > > Take care, > John > >> On Oct 2, 2025, at 16:00, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> >> On 03-Oct-25 06:41, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via Internet-history wrote: >>> John Levine via Internet-history writes: >>>> I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running >>>> into anyone who used it over X.25. >>>> >>>> This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp >>>> had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: >>> Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via >>> PADs. It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff >>> flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget. And >>> it was certainly used, at least in Canada. Before CA*net was formed, >>> the U of Alberta, UBC, U of Waterloo, and probably U of Toronto, >>> all swapped mail and Usenet over Datapac via UUCP running 'f'. When >>> I set up APSS (Alberta Disaster Services), I set up a UUCP link >>> over Datapac with the UofA running 'f' protocol to relay news amd >>> mail. It was a real thing. >> >> The irony being that Datapac was merely an X.25 wrapper on an underlying >> connectionless packet-switched network [1] [2]. >> >> As others have said, IP over X.25 was fairly common in Europe, for financial >> or political reasons. In fact several European efforts at everything-over-X.25 >> can be found in the two relevant history books [3] [4]. >> >> Brian >> >> [1] https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/research/groups/CDMTCS/researchreports/download.php?selected-id=884 >> [2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6592834 >> [3] http://ictconsulting.ch/reports/european-research-internet-history.pdf >> [4] https://doi.org/10.1002/9783527629336 >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From craig at tereschau.net Mon Oct 13 13:11:53 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 14:11:53 -0600 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <108d29e6-f9da-43ec-a4d0-55299f31c28f@gmail.com> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> <3550DC6D-C124-41EE-8823-755D6270BA48@comcast.net> <108d29e6-f9da-43ec-a4d0-55299f31c28f@gmail.com> Message-ID: X.75 in most international networks also limited you to two X.25 packets in flight at a time. Caused CSNET a certain level of grief in the late 1980s as international sites wanted to shift to X.25 for connectivity and found that performance wasn't much better than dialup (at least, that's my memory). Craig On Mon, Oct 13, 2025 at 2:08?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 14-Oct-25 01:12, John Day wrote: > > Sorry to be so late, just catching up. > > > > As you know, X.25 only defined the *interface* between a ?DCE? (host) > and a ?DTE? (router). The network could do anything it wanted in between. > > Correct, of course. And further, X.75 defined the interface between two > X.25 networks (e.g. at international borders). I don't know what X.75 did > about Acks. > > Brian > > > Of course, most PTTs didn?t exactly. Although there was some variation > in what an Ack meant: was the ack from the remote DTE, the remote DCE, or > the local DCE. > > > > In Datapac?s case, I believe the Ack was from the local DTE. > > > > Also, one has to be careful about the term ?interface?. To the CCITT, it > meant between boxes, to the rest of us it meant API, back when API meant > API, i.e., the calls at the layer boundary. > > > > Take care, > > John > > > >> On Oct 2, 2025, at 16:00, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >> On 03-Oct-25 06:41, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) via > Internet-history wrote: > >>> John Levine via Internet-history writes: > >>>> I was a long time uucp user and I do not ever recall running > >>>> into anyone who used it over X.25. > >>>> > >>>> This web page says that the widely used Taylor uucp > >>>> had an 'x' protocol for X.25 but also says it doesn't work: > >>> Berkeley (I think?) added the 'f' protocol for use over X.25 via > >>> PADs. It encoded 8-bit traffic into 7-bit values, used xon/xoff > >>> flow control, and probably had a few other quirks I forget. And > >>> it was certainly used, at least in Canada. Before CA*net was formed, > >>> the U of Alberta, UBC, U of Waterloo, and probably U of Toronto, > >>> all swapped mail and Usenet over Datapac via UUCP running 'f'. When > >>> I set up APSS (Alberta Disaster Services), I set up a UUCP link > >>> over Datapac with the UofA running 'f' protocol to relay news amd > >>> mail. It was a real thing. > >> > >> The irony being that Datapac was merely an X.25 wrapper on an underlying > >> connectionless packet-switched network [1] [2]. > >> > >> As others have said, IP over X.25 was fairly common in Europe, for > financial > >> or political reasons. In fact several European efforts at > everything-over-X.25 > >> can be found in the two relevant history books [3] [4]. > >> > >> Brian > >> > >> [1] > https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/research/groups/CDMTCS/researchreports/download.php?selected-id=884 > >> [2] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6592834 > >> [3] > http://ictconsulting.ch/reports/european-research-internet-history.pdf > >> [4] https://doi.org/10.1002/9783527629336 > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> - > >> Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From dcrocker at bbiw.net Mon Oct 13 13:14:33 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2025 13:14:33 -0700 Subject: [ih] X.25 In-Reply-To: <3550DC6D-C124-41EE-8823-755D6270BA48@comcast.net> References: <4a61a9c65268404c@orthanc.ca> <6DAC9128-E6FE-4BAF-9270-BD21BC7370F2@comcast.net> <84ab47e6-7345-41e3-984a-735cf57839cc@dcrocker.net> <20251002032027.45593DF65A5E@ary.qy> <4a61aea26595b24c@orthanc.ca> <5748a575-5da2-45af-9355-a37ab69321c0@gmail.com> <3550DC6D-C124-41EE-8823-755D6270BA48@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/13/2025 5:12 AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > As you know, X.25 only defined the*interface* between a ?DCE? (host) and a ?DTE? (router). The network could do anything it wanted in between indeed. and just to get this said explicitly on the list, that means any instance of an X.25 network had to be single-vendor, since it was certain each vendor at least had quirks that were not interoperable. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From nigel at channelisles.net Tue Oct 14 01:09:22 2025 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 09:09:22 +0100 Subject: [ih] Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <20251013193858.9B483E16EFC0@ary.local> References: <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <439B8EA0-3785-489A-B33F-744D42C7126D@strayalpha.com> <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> <52771916-BF51-4F13-9127-2D977A68AEC1@mac.com> <20251013193858.9B483E16EFC0@ary.local> Message-ID: <684270ec-1e93-4575-bebe-5ecdf7678bfd@channelisles.net> It depends what you want to do. There are procedures for anthologisers of (e.g.) science fiction and crime/noir such as short stories that appeared in Black Mask whereby every effort is made to find the copyright holder/literary executor and then a disclaimer regarding permissions/payment. But it would not be worth it unless it was a major project. On 13/10/2025 20:38, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > It appears that William Westfield via Internet-history said: >>> That would be a copy and require permission, either of all the list posters >> Yes. nearly impossible to get, as I said. > On a list this old, impossible in practice. Some of the contributors have died, > the rights belong to their estates or heirs, and the work to track them down > and explain what you want and get them to agree would be absurdly difficult. > > >>> or at a minimum from the list owner. Some lists make this clear in their charter >> Yeah, I suppose that lists/fora with particularly high opinions of their worth might include this in their terms of >> use, ... > I have moderated the comp.compilers usenet newsgroup for almost 40 > years. Every post has gotten the autoresponse below. Once in a while > someone writes to me demanding that I delete an ancient post from the > archives. I ignore them. > > R's, > John > > When you send a message to comp.compilers, I understand that to mean > that you want me to post it to usenet, which means it will be sent to > tens of thousands of potential readers at thousands of computers all > around the world. It may also appear in a printed comp.compilers > annual and other books, in the ACM SIGPLAN Notices and other > magazines, in on-line and off-line archives, CD-ROMs, and anywhere > else that some reader decides to use it. > > If you don't want me to post something, please send it instead to > compilers-request. > From lear at lear.ch Tue Oct 14 04:03:07 2025 From: lear at lear.ch (Eliot Lear) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 13:03:07 +0200 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? Message-ID: Hi Internet Historians, I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote text.? A research here in Switzerland is asking me.? I can only date it as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984.? The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible.? But when did it get picked up in Internet times? Any takers? Thanks, Eliot [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From craig at tereschau.net Tue Oct 14 06:38:43 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 07:38:43 -0600 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them use the diple. So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews reading tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), MH and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. Craig On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Hi Internet Historians, > > I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote > text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date it > as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. > The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a > "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get > picked up in Internet times? > > Any takers? > > Thanks, > > Eliot > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From nigel at channelisles.net Tue Oct 14 06:56:41 2025 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 14:56:41 +0100 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My recollection is that I first encountered it on USENET - we didn't use it in emails in DEC in the early 1980s. But memory fades. Nigel PS As I recall it, a "from" in "from whence" is otiose. It's either "from where", or "whence" (which can mean 'to' OR 'from'). On 14/10/2025 14:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and > header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them use > the diple. > > So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews reading > tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of > choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), MH > and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. > > Craig > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Hi Internet Historians, >> >> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote >> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date it >> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. >> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a >> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get >> picked up in Internet times? >> >> Any takers? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Eliot >> >> [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> > From el at lisse.na Tue Oct 14 07:58:27 2025 From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 16:58:27 +0200 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <18020d22-c286-43c1-81f4-b91df57ddf73@Spark> I used DECMail in the early 80's as well but can't for the life of me recall how it dealt with history (levels). One could of course look for a VAX with public access or (re-)install on SIMH and find out, but I am not bored enough (to look for my license key) el -- Sent from my iPhone On 14. Oct 2025 at 15:56 +0200, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history , wrote: > My recollection is that I first encountered it on USENET - we didn't use > it in emails in DEC in the early 1980s. > > But memory fades. > > Nigel [?] From mcguire at lssmuseum.org Tue Oct 14 08:24:49 2025 From: mcguire at lssmuseum.org (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 11:24:49 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <18020d22-c286-43c1-81f4-b91df57ddf73@Spark> References: <18020d22-c286-43c1-81f4-b91df57ddf73@Spark> Message-ID: <29232d2e-5a86-4a5c-82a2-9e3045553fe7@lssmuseum.org> Somewhat relevant, we have plenty of VAXen up and running at LSSM in Pittsburgh. One of the purposes of our museum is to support such research efforts. And (if I may) our 10th anniversary fundraiser is this coming Friday and Saturday, and there are a few tickets left. -Dave McGuire On 10/14/25 10:58, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: > I used DECMail in the early 80's as well but can't for the life of me recall how it dealt with history (levels). > > One could of course look for a VAX with public access or (re-)install on SIMH and find out, but I am not bored enough (to look for my license key) > > el > > -- > Sent from my iPhone > On 14. Oct 2025 at 15:56 +0200, Nigel Roberts via Internet-history , wrote: > >> My recollection is that I first encountered it on USENET - we didn't use >> it in emails in DEC in the early 1980s. >> >> But memory fades. >> >> Nigel > [?] -- Dave McGuire President/Curator, Large Scale Systems Museum New Kensington, PA From ocl at gih.com Tue Oct 14 09:49:21 2025 From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?=) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 18:49:21 +0200 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a whole Wikipedia article with some sources: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style Alternatively there are the brilliant, informative rules from Emily Postnews. https://psg.com/emily.html O. On 14/10/2025 12:03, Eliot Lear via Internet-history wrote: > Hi Internet Historians, > > I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote > text.? A research here in Switzerland is asking me.? I can only date > it as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond > 1984.? The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of > a "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get > picked up in Internet times? > > Any takers? > > Thanks, > > Eliot > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) > > From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Oct 14 10:13:16 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 10:13:16 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2025, at 6:38?AM, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > > I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and > header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them use > the diple. > > So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews reading > tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of > choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), MH > and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. > > Craig I poked around net.unix-wizards using Google Groups and noticed some use of ?> ? popped up in late 1983 [1] There may have been a new release of Usenet sources sometime around then. Greg [1] https://groups.google.com/g/net.unix-wizards/c/LKjrqzez2EA/m/A-CCrVZc7jAJ From johnl at iecc.com Tue Oct 14 10:38:18 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Oct 2025 13:38:18 -0400 Subject: [ih] copyright arcana, Internet Histories Volume 9, issue 3 is BS In-Reply-To: <684270ec-1e93-4575-bebe-5ecdf7678bfd@channelisles.net> References: <439B8EA0-3785-489A-B33F-744D42C7126D@strayalpha.com> <43c751f1-4037-441d-af5b-0c2a240b24e2@3kitty.org> <6F76D7DD-B14F-4996-88F9-2E33BC765687@mac.com> <20251013193858.9B483E16EFC0@ary.local> <477b6fda-8cb0-4bc3-a660-f22b8c81bbcb@channelisles.net> <52771916-BF51-4F13-9127-2D977A68AEC1@mac.com> <684270ec-1e93-4575-bebe-5ecdf7678bfd@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <20251014173819.3901AE17E097@ary.local> It appears that Nigel Roberts via Internet-history said: >There are procedures for anthologisers of (e.g.) science fiction and >crime/noir such as short stories that appeared in Black Mask whereby >every effort is made to find the copyright holder/literary executor and >then a disclaimer regarding permissions/payment. That turns out to be financially quite risky. A famous failing of US copyright law is that there is no safe harbor for orphan works. No matter how diligent your search was, if you use something and a copyright owner later pops up, they can sue you and win. Everyone knows that's absurd but the law has not yet been fixed. You could make a good argument that a historical work using list messages was fair use, but fair use is only a defense if you are sued, and copyright cases are extremely expensive even if you win. The proposed Google Books settlement had a very half-assed workaround that gave all of the unclaimed money to the Authors' Guild under the self serving (and false) theory that they represent all authors. The judge rightly rejected it. R's, John PS: before Joe says it, this is rather far afield of Internet history. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Tue Oct 14 12:24:43 2025 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:24:43 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4a61dd9552e03d24@orthanc.ca> Sayeth Greg Skinner: > I poked around net.unix-wizards using Google Groups and noticed > some use of ?> ? popped up in late 1983 [1] > There may have been a new release of Usenet sources sometime around > then. Would that be the transition from Anews -> Bnews? rnews grew quoted replies? --lyndon From ats at offog.org Tue Oct 14 12:58:14 2025 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 20:58:14 +0100 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: (Greg Skinner via Internet-history's message of "Tue, 14 Oct 2025 10:13:16 -0700") References: Message-ID: Greg Skinner via Internet-history writes: > I poked around net.unix-wizards using Google Groups and noticed some > use of ?> ? popped up in late 1983 [1] There may have been a new > release of Usenet sources sometime around then. That matches the messages in the SAILDART and ITS public archives -- I can't see any examples of this quoting style prior to 1983. In the utzoo Usenet archive, the earliest example of the style is a message from Sid Shapiro at Wang Institute on 1982-01-06, which looks like it's been pasted together by hand. The first that looks like an automated quote of a previous message is from seismo!hao!woods on 1983-05-05, and then there are a few dozen in 1983-06 with numbers growing rapidly after that. It is predated by a few years by the use of > to quote lines that start with From in UUCP message bodies, initially for UUCP source paths, which might have influenced the style? The earliest two examples: >From mark Sat Apr 19 01:18:51 1980 (from ucbvax!mark, in the utzoo archive) >From uucp Tue Jun 24 01:35:52 1980 remote from wh5ess >From clemc Mon Jun 23 13:53:58 1980 remote from teklabs (from Clem Cole, then at Tektronix, to Les Earnest at SAIL) -- Adam Sampson From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Oct 14 12:59:29 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 08:59:29 +1300 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's a slightly related point which I found mentioned in RFC 4155, which defined the application/mbox media type: > Many implementations are also known to escape message body lines that > begin with the character sequence of "From ", so as to prevent > confusion with overly-liberal parsers that do not search for full > separator lines. In the common case, a leading Greater-Than symbol > (0x3E) is used for this purpose (with "From " becoming ">From "). MBOX format is notoriously variable and under-documented. RFC 4155 cites http://qmail.org./man/man5/mbox.html which implies that everybody knows about ">". If anybody can find the *original* specification of the MBOXO format (that is not a typo) that might help. Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter On 15-Oct-25 02:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and > header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them use > the diple. > > So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews reading > tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of > choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), MH > and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. > > Craig > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Hi Internet Historians, >> >> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote >> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date it >> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. >> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a >> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get >> picked up in Internet times? >> >> Any takers? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Eliot >> >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> > > From dcrocker at bbiw.net Tue Oct 14 13:35:00 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 13:35:00 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> On 10/14/2025 12:58 PM, Adam Sampson via Internet-history wrote: > It is predated by a few years by the use of > to quote lines that start > with From in UUCP message bodies, initially for UUCP source paths, which > might have influenced the style? The earliest two examples: I recall the >From convention being done by Sendmail. Maybe delivermail.? I thought it introduced it.? (And unfortunately the convention persists.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From johnl at iecc.com Tue Oct 14 14:32:06 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Oct 2025 17:32:06 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> Message-ID: <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history said: >I recall the >From convention being done by Sendmail. Maybe >delivermail.? I thought it introduced it.? (And unfortunately the >convention persists.) I think it's older than that, done by /bin/mail long before anyone connected Unix systems to the Arpanet. It was a two-minute hack to separate mail messages in a single file mbox, and we're still doing it 50 years later. I can ask on the Unix history society list. R's, John From dcrocker at bbiw.net Tue Oct 14 14:38:18 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 14:38:18 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> Message-ID: <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> On 10/14/2025 2:32 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > I think it's older than that, done by /bin/mail long before anyone > connected Unix systems to the Arpanet. Since Unix was on the Arpanet by no later than 1975. (I don't remember what year we got it at UCLA, but I know Rand had it by then. So, 'long before' would almost require being before Unix was developed. Still, yeah, it would have been reasonable for the original bin/mail work to make sure naturally occurring lines begining with from did not mess up the parse. > I can ask on the Unix history society > list. Given this thread, it would be nice to put the question to bed. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From craig at tereschau.net Tue Oct 14 14:40:59 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 15:40:59 -0600 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, I can add some partial light. The original mbox format, used by Ray Tomlinson was that there was no format. Mail was simply appended to a file which you read with your text editor. Ray included a From: field (but not To:) and Subject: and Date: (see RFC 561). This was a PITA to the first email program writers because it was murderously hard to parse the mailbox. As a result, in 1973 Martin Yonke (author of BananaRD, the first standalone mail reading program and successor to Larry Robert's RD [a set of TECO macros]) decided that mail systems when delivering to a mailbox should separate emails with 4 SOH (Start of Header) characters -- and that's how most do it by default to, I believe, the present day. Some systems persist, instead, on finding a From: field as a delimiter which creates the >From requirement. Craig On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 1:59?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > There's a slightly related point which I found mentioned in RFC 4155, > which defined the application/mbox media type: > > > Many implementations are also known to escape message body lines that > > begin with the character sequence of "From ", so as to prevent > > confusion with overly-liberal parsers that do not search for full > > separator lines. In the common case, a leading Greater-Than symbol > > (0x3E) is used for this purpose (with "From " becoming ">From "). > > MBOX format is notoriously variable and under-documented. RFC 4155 cites > http://qmail.org./man/man5/mbox.html which implies that everybody knows > about ">". If anybody can find the *original* specification of the MBOXO > format (that is not a typo) that might help. > > Regards/Ng? mihi > Brian Carpenter > > On 15-Oct-25 02:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > > I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and > > header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them > use > > the diple. > > > > So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews > reading > > tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of > > choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), > MH > > and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. > > > > Craig > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> Hi Internet Historians, > >> > >> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote > >> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date it > >> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. > >> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a > >> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get > >> picked up in Internet times? > >> > >> Any takers? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Eliot > >> > >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) > >> > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> - > >> Unsubscribe: > >> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >> > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From steve at shinkuro.com Tue Oct 14 15:03:41 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 18:03:41 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The header of the messages included a character count, but the count was out of sync as mail moved from one system to another because, IIRC, the newline character got expanded to two characters, CR (carriage return) followed by NL (new line). I was working for Larry in the DARPA office when he wrote RD. He and I were both TECO hackers. His program was painfully slow when there was a bunch of mail because he scanned for the next message looking for the next header but not using the character count. I took his code and rewrote the part that looked for the next message by moving forward a line at a time and adjusting the count by 1 each time. The speed up was quite noticeable. (Hacking a set of TECO macros was a bit of fun. I had previously written a macro loader, which made it much easier to edit and test a set of macros.) My next job was at ISI, and I started to use Marty Yonke's BananaRD. One day it stopped working and I asked Marty to take a look. After he looked, he exploded, "I never thought anyone would have more than 300 messages." Steve On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:41?PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Well, I can add some partial light. > > The original mbox format, used by Ray Tomlinson was that there was no > format. Mail was simply appended to a file which you read with your text > editor. Ray included a From: field (but not To:) and Subject: and Date: > (see RFC 561). > > This was a PITA to the first email program writers because it was > murderously hard to parse the mailbox. As a result, in 1973 Martin Yonke > (author of BananaRD, the first standalone mail reading program and > successor to Larry Robert's RD [a set of TECO macros]) decided that mail > systems when delivering to a mailbox should separate emails with 4 SOH > (Start of Header) characters -- and that's how most do it by default to, I > believe, the present day. > > Some systems persist, instead, on finding a From: field as a delimiter > which creates the >From requirement. > > Craig > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 1:59?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > There's a slightly related point which I found mentioned in RFC 4155, > > which defined the application/mbox media type: > > > > > Many implementations are also known to escape message body lines > that > > > begin with the character sequence of "From ", so as to prevent > > > confusion with overly-liberal parsers that do not search for full > > > separator lines. In the common case, a leading Greater-Than symbol > > > (0x3E) is used for this purpose (with "From " becoming ">From "). > > > > MBOX format is notoriously variable and under-documented. RFC 4155 cites > > http://qmail.org./man/man5/mbox.html which implies that everybody knows > > about ">". If anybody can find the *original* specification of the MBOXO > > format (that is not a typo) that might help. > > > > Regards/Ng? mihi > > Brian Carpenter > > > > On 15-Oct-25 02:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > > > I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and > > > header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them > > use > > > the diple. > > > > > > So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews > > reading > > > tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of > > > choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), > > MH > > > and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. > > > > > > Craig > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < > > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > >> Hi Internet Historians, > > >> > > >> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote > > >> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date > it > > >> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. > > >> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a > > >> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get > > >> picked up in Internet times? > > >> > > >> Any takers? > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> > > >> Eliot > > >> > > >> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) > > >> > > >> -- > > >> Internet-history mailing list > > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > >> - > > >> Unsubscribe: > > >> > > > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > - > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > > > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > mailing lists. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Sent by a Verified sender From dcrocker at bbiw.net Tue Oct 14 15:10:44 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 15:10:44 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27756527-30bb-4893-b1b2-cf0ec76f4903@bbiw.net> On 10/14/2025 3:03 PM, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > The header of the messages included a character count, ahh, yes.? character count for the Tenex mail file. but line beginning from for the unix mail file. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From craig at tereschau.net Tue Oct 14 15:13:37 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 16:13:37 -0600 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 4:03?PM Steve Crocker wrote: > > My next job was at ISI, and I started to use Marty Yonke's BananaRD. One > day it stopped working and I asked Marty to take a look. After he looked, > he exploded, "I never thought anyone would have more than 300 messages." > > Steve > According to Marty when I interviewed him in 2006, the limit was 5,000 messages (which was, to him at the time, an inconceivable number). Also, you and John Vittal apparently hit the limit at approximately the same time. It was an error that got repeated. I recall a story of Mike Karels complaining to the BSD team in the late 1980s that BSD Mail was too slow -- it was determined that his mailbox was so big (multiple 10Ks of emails) that some functions got bogged down. Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From johnl at iecc.com Tue Oct 14 15:35:01 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine) Date: 14 Oct 2025 18:35:01 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> Message-ID: <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> On Tue, 14 Oct 2025, Dave Crocker wrote: > Since Unix was on the Arpanet by no later than 1975. (I don't remember what > year we got it at UCLA, but I know Rand had it by then. > > So, 'long before' would almost require being before Unix was developed. I remembered that I have the v6 and v7 source code on my laptop, as one does. The 1975 v6 version of /bin/mail had no special From processing and no network code. The v7 version had code to work with uucp and has the >From hack. The date on the source file is May 5 1979 so that's the latest possible but it was more likely added in 1978 when uucp was written. Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Oct 14 15:40:42 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 15:40:42 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> Message-ID: On Oct 14, 2025, at 3:35?PM, John R. Levine via Internet-history wrote: > > On Tue, 14 Oct 2025, Dave Crocker wrote: >> Since Unix was on the Arpanet by no later than 1975. (I don't remember what year we got it at UCLA, but I know Rand had it by then. >> >> So, 'long before' would almost require being before Unix was developed. > > I remembered that I have the v6 and v7 source code on my laptop, as one does. > > The 1975 v6 version of /bin/mail had no special From processing and no network code. The v7 version had code to work with uucp and has the >From hack. The date on the source file is May 5 1979 so that's the latest possible but it was more likely added in 1978 when uucp was written. > > Regards, > John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history The Unix Tree source code for mail.c from V7 Unix (dated 1979-05-05) has a call to sendmail() implementing the >From hack. [1] Greg [1] https://minnie.tuhs.org//cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/mail.c From dcrocker at bbiw.net Tue Oct 14 15:48:23 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 15:48:23 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> Message-ID: <2da6655a-045d-4c0d-a69e-73dbf9599c31@bbiw.net> On 10/14/2025 3:35 PM, John R. Levine via Internet-history wrote: > The 1975 v6 version of /bin/mail had no special From processing and no > network code. I started working at Rand the summer of 1976.? They already had a v6 Unix doing email on the Arpanet. We then built the MS system, which included a User Interfaces that emulated /bin/mail and msg.? (Vittal certified the msg emulation.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From jeanjour at comcast.net Tue Oct 14 16:14:30 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 19:14:30 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? (Remember how typewriters worked?) ;-) The problem came up with Multics which used EBCDIC where the comparable function was NL (New Line). This made moving text from Multics a bit of a nuisance that caused character counts to be off depending on how many lines the file contained. Take care, John > On Oct 14, 2025, at 18:03, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > The header of the messages included a character count, but the count was > out of sync as mail moved from one system to another because, IIRC, the > newline character got expanded to two characters, CR (carriage return) > followed by NL (new line). > > I was working for Larry in the DARPA office when he wrote RD. He and I were > both TECO hackers. His program was painfully slow when there was a bunch > of mail because he scanned for the next message looking for the next header > but not using the character count. > > I took his code and rewrote the part that looked for the next message by > moving forward a line at a time and adjusting the count by 1 each time. > The speed up was quite noticeable. > > (Hacking a set of TECO macros was a bit of fun. I had previously written a > macro loader, which made it much easier to edit and test a set of macros.) > > My next job was at ISI, and I started to use Marty Yonke's BananaRD. One > day it stopped working and I asked Marty to take a look. After he looked, > he exploded, "I never thought anyone would have more than 300 messages." > > Steve > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:41?PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Well, I can add some partial light. >> >> The original mbox format, used by Ray Tomlinson was that there was no >> format. Mail was simply appended to a file which you read with your text >> editor. Ray included a From: field (but not To:) and Subject: and Date: >> (see RFC 561). >> >> This was a PITA to the first email program writers because it was >> murderously hard to parse the mailbox. As a result, in 1973 Martin Yonke >> (author of BananaRD, the first standalone mail reading program and >> successor to Larry Robert's RD [a set of TECO macros]) decided that mail >> systems when delivering to a mailbox should separate emails with 4 SOH >> (Start of Header) characters -- and that's how most do it by default to, I >> believe, the present day. >> >> Some systems persist, instead, on finding a From: field as a delimiter >> which creates the >From requirement. >> >> Craig >> >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 1:59?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> There's a slightly related point which I found mentioned in RFC 4155, >>> which defined the application/mbox media type: >>> >>>> Many implementations are also known to escape message body lines >> that >>>> begin with the character sequence of "From ", so as to prevent >>>> confusion with overly-liberal parsers that do not search for full >>>> separator lines. In the common case, a leading Greater-Than symbol >>>> (0x3E) is used for this purpose (with "From " becoming ">From "). >>> >>> MBOX format is notoriously variable and under-documented. RFC 4155 cites >>> http://qmail.org./man/man5/mbox.html which implies that everybody knows >>> about ">". If anybody can find the *original* specification of the MBOXO >>> format (that is not a typo) that might help. >>> >>> Regards/Ng? mihi >>> Brian Carpenter >>> >>> On 15-Oct-25 02:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: >>>> I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and >>>> header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them >>> use >>>> the diple. >>>> >>>> So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews >>> reading >>>> tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of >>>> choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), >>> MH >>>> and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. >>>> >>>> Craig >>>> >>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hi Internet Historians, >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote >>>>> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date >> it >>>>> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. >>>>> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a >>>>> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get >>>>> picked up in Internet times? >>>>> >>>>> Any takers? >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> >>>>> Eliot >>>>> >>>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>>> - >>>>> Unsubscribe: >>>>> >>> >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> - >>> Unsubscribe: >>> >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >>> >> >> >> -- >> ***** >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> mailing lists. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> > > > -- > Sent by a Verified > > sender > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From dcrocker at bbiw.net Tue Oct 14 17:01:55 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 17:01:55 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> On 10/14/2025 4:14 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? In practical terms, there was no 'official' email character set until, perhaps, RFC 475 (March 1973) with the FTP MAIL command using Telnet.? The MLFL command doesn't seem to declare a character set.? Not that a year and a half with no character set 'official' convention was all that long... RFC 561 (Sept 1973) did not gain traction.? RFC 733 (Nov 1977) finally settled forma-related issues issues. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From craig at tereschau.net Tue Oct 14 17:07:55 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 18:07:55 -0600 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> Message-ID: I think you are confusing the end of message sequence in FTP (later SMTP) with the mailbox format on each system. By about 1973, they were different things (msg to transfer, protocol to transfer it). Craig On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:14?PM John Day wrote: > Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line > with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? > (Remember how typewriters worked?) ;-) > > The problem came up with Multics which used EBCDIC where the comparable > function was NL (New Line). > > This made moving text from Multics a bit of a nuisance that caused > character counts to be off depending on how many lines the file contained. > > Take care, > John > > > On Oct 14, 2025, at 18:03, Steve Crocker via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > The header of the messages included a character count, but the count was > > out of sync as mail moved from one system to another because, IIRC, the > > newline character got expanded to two characters, CR (carriage return) > > followed by NL (new line). > > > > I was working for Larry in the DARPA office when he wrote RD. He and I > were > > both TECO hackers. His program was painfully slow when there was a bunch > > of mail because he scanned for the next message looking for the next > header > > but not using the character count. > > > > I took his code and rewrote the part that looked for the next message by > > moving forward a line at a time and adjusting the count by 1 each time. > > The speed up was quite noticeable. > > > > (Hacking a set of TECO macros was a bit of fun. I had previously > written a > > macro loader, which made it much easier to edit and test a set of > macros.) > > > > My next job was at ISI, and I started to use Marty Yonke's BananaRD. One > > day it stopped working and I asked Marty to take a look. After he > looked, > > he exploded, "I never thought anyone would have more than 300 messages." > > > > Steve > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:41?PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> Well, I can add some partial light. > >> > >> The original mbox format, used by Ray Tomlinson was that there was no > >> format. Mail was simply appended to a file which you read with your > text > >> editor. Ray included a From: field (but not To:) and Subject: and Date: > >> (see RFC 561). > >> > >> This was a PITA to the first email program writers because it was > >> murderously hard to parse the mailbox. As a result, in 1973 Martin > Yonke > >> (author of BananaRD, the first standalone mail reading program and > >> successor to Larry Robert's RD [a set of TECO macros]) decided that mail > >> systems when delivering to a mailbox should separate emails with 4 SOH > >> (Start of Header) characters -- and that's how most do it by default > to, I > >> believe, the present day. > >> > >> Some systems persist, instead, on finding a From: field as a delimiter > >> which creates the >From requirement. > >> > >> Craig > >> > >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 1:59?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >>> There's a slightly related point which I found mentioned in RFC 4155, > >>> which defined the application/mbox media type: > >>> > >>>> Many implementations are also known to escape message body lines > >> that > >>>> begin with the character sequence of "From ", so as to prevent > >>>> confusion with overly-liberal parsers that do not search for full > >>>> separator lines. In the common case, a leading Greater-Than symbol > >>>> (0x3E) is used for this purpose (with "From " becoming ">From "). > >>> > >>> MBOX format is notoriously variable and under-documented. RFC 4155 > cites > >>> http://qmail.org./man/man5/mbox.html which implies that everybody > knows > >>> about ">". If anybody can find the *original* specification of the > MBOXO > >>> format (that is not a typo) that might help. > >>> > >>> Regards/Ng? mihi > >>> Brian Carpenter > >>> > >>> On 15-Oct-25 02:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > >>>> I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and > >>>> header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of > them > >>> use > >>>> the diple. > >>>> > >>>> So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews > >>> reading > >>>> tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of > >>>> choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail > (?), > >>> MH > >>>> and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. > >>>> > >>>> Craig > >>>> > >>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < > >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Hi Internet Historians, > >>>>> > >>>>> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote > >>>>> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date > >> it > >>>>> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. > >>>>> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a > >>>>> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get > >>>>> picked up in Internet times? > >>>>> > >>>>> Any takers? > >>>>> > >>>>> Thanks, > >>>>> > >>>>> Eliot > >>>>> > >>>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>>> - > >>>>> Unsubscribe: > >>>>> > >>> > >> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>> -- > >>> Internet-history mailing list > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>> - > >>> Unsubscribe: > >>> > >> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >>> > >> > >> > >> -- > >> ***** > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > >> mailing lists. > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> - > >> Unsubscribe: > >> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > > Sent by a Verified > > > > sender > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > - > > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From jeanjour at comcast.net Tue Oct 14 17:22:17 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 20:22:17 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> Message-ID: <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> I was speaking of FTP where email started. > On Oct 14, 2025, at 20:01, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 10/14/2025 4:14 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >> Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? > > > In practical terms, there was no 'official' email character set until, perhaps, RFC 475 (March 1973) with the FTP MAIL command using Telnet. The MLFL command doesn't seem to declare a character set. Not that a year and a half with no character set 'official' convention was all that long... > > RFC 561 (Sept 1973) did not gain traction. RFC 733 (Nov 1977) finally settled forma-related issues issues. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From jeanjour at comcast.net Tue Oct 14 17:30:14 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 20:30:14 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> Message-ID: No, CRLF was an ?end of record?, ?end of line? mark in FTP. In 1973, Pogran and I did a File Access Protocol based on the 73 FTP. Used a byte pointer into the file, which we thought made sense. But then got hung up because of the difference between CRLF and NL. Ended up causing me to read Frege?s On Sense. ;-) Take care, John > On Oct 14, 2025, at 20:07, Craig Partridge wrote: > > I think you are confusing the end of message sequence in FTP (later SMTP) with the mailbox format on each system. By about 1973, they were different things (msg to transfer, protocol to transfer it). > > Craig > > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:14?PM John Day > wrote: >> Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? >> (Remember how typewriters worked?) ;-) >> >> The problem came up with Multics which used EBCDIC where the comparable function was NL (New Line). >> >> This made moving text from Multics a bit of a nuisance that caused character counts to be off depending on how many lines the file contained. >> >> Take care, >> John >> >> > On Oct 14, 2025, at 18:03, Steve Crocker via Internet-history > wrote: >> > >> > The header of the messages included a character count, but the count was >> > out of sync as mail moved from one system to another because, IIRC, the >> > newline character got expanded to two characters, CR (carriage return) >> > followed by NL (new line). >> > >> > I was working for Larry in the DARPA office when he wrote RD. He and I were >> > both TECO hackers. His program was painfully slow when there was a bunch >> > of mail because he scanned for the next message looking for the next header >> > but not using the character count. >> > >> > I took his code and rewrote the part that looked for the next message by >> > moving forward a line at a time and adjusting the count by 1 each time. >> > The speed up was quite noticeable. >> > >> > (Hacking a set of TECO macros was a bit of fun. I had previously written a >> > macro loader, which made it much easier to edit and test a set of macros.) >> > >> > My next job was at ISI, and I started to use Marty Yonke's BananaRD. One >> > day it stopped working and I asked Marty to take a look. After he looked, >> > he exploded, "I never thought anyone would have more than 300 messages." >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > >> > On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:41?PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > wrote: >> > >> >> Well, I can add some partial light. >> >> >> >> The original mbox format, used by Ray Tomlinson was that there was no >> >> format. Mail was simply appended to a file which you read with your text >> >> editor. Ray included a From: field (but not To:) and Subject: and Date: >> >> (see RFC 561). >> >> >> >> This was a PITA to the first email program writers because it was >> >> murderously hard to parse the mailbox. As a result, in 1973 Martin Yonke >> >> (author of BananaRD, the first standalone mail reading program and >> >> successor to Larry Robert's RD [a set of TECO macros]) decided that mail >> >> systems when delivering to a mailbox should separate emails with 4 SOH >> >> (Start of Header) characters -- and that's how most do it by default to, I >> >> believe, the present day. >> >> >> >> Some systems persist, instead, on finding a From: field as a delimiter >> >> which creates the >From requirement. >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 1:59?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < >> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org > wrote: >> >> >> >>> There's a slightly related point which I found mentioned in RFC 4155, >> >>> which defined the application/mbox media type: >> >>> >> >>>> Many implementations are also known to escape message body lines >> >> that >> >>>> begin with the character sequence of "From ", so as to prevent >> >>>> confusion with overly-liberal parsers that do not search for full >> >>>> separator lines. In the common case, a leading Greater-Than symbol >> >>>> (0x3E) is used for this purpose (with "From " becoming ">From "). >> >>> >> >>> MBOX format is notoriously variable and under-documented. RFC 4155 cites >> >>> http://qmail.org./man/man5/mbox.html which implies that everybody knows >> >>> about ">". If anybody can find the *original* specification of the MBOXO >> >>> format (that is not a typo) that might help. >> >>> >> >>> Regards/Ng? mihi >> >>> Brian Carpenter >> >>> >> >>> On 15-Oct-25 02:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: >> >>>> I just spent half an hour digging through the msggroup, tcp-ip and >> >>>> header-people mailing lists from the mid to late 1970s and none of them >> >>> use >> >>>> the diple. >> >>>> >> >>>> So I'm guessing it was an innovation in one of the email or netnews >> >>> reading >> >>>> tools developed in the late 1970s to early 1980s. There are lots of >> >>>> choices that appeared about that time: readnews, rn, Berkeley Mail (?), >> >>> MH >> >>>> and, I think, some Emacs reading tools. >> >>>> >> >>>> Craig >> >>>> >> >>>> On Tue, Oct 14, 2025 at 5:04?AM Eliot Lear via Internet-history < >> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org > wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hi Internet Historians, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> I wonder if anyone knows the earliest use of "> " as a means to quote >> >>>>> text. A research here in Switzerland is asking me. I can only date >> >> it >> >>>>> as far back as "rn" and netnews, but surely it goes back beyond 1984. >> >>>>> The researcher mentioned that there have been various forms of a >> >>>>> "diple"[1] as Ancient Greece and in the bible. But when did it get >> >>>>> picked up in Internet times? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Any takers? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Thanks, >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Eliot >> >>>>> >> >>>>> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diple_(textual_symbol) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -- >> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list >> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >>>>> - >> >>>>> Unsubscribe: >> >>>>> >> >>> >> >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Internet-history mailing list >> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >>> - >> >>> Unsubscribe: >> >>> >> >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ***** >> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> >> mailing lists. >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> - >> >> Unsubscribe: >> >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Sent by a Verified >> > >> > sender >> > -- >> > Internet-history mailing list >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > - >> > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> > > > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Oct 14 17:47:59 2025 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 17:47:59 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <4a61dd9552e03d24@orthanc.ca> References: <4a61dd9552e03d24@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <8E501567-943E-4F30-A745-047579E6095B@icloud.com> On Oct 14, 2025, at 12:24?PM, Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM) wrote: > > Sayeth Greg Skinner: > >> I poked around net.unix-wizards using Google Groups and noticed >> some use of ?> ? popped up in late 1983 [1] > >> There may have been a new release of Usenet sources sometime around >> then. > > Would that be the transition from Anews -> Bnews? rnews grew quoted > replies? > > ?lyndon Could be. For that time period, there are announcements of usenet software releases and updates in net.sources (https://groups.google.com/g/net.sources). From dcrocker at bbiw.net Tue Oct 14 18:04:59 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Oct 2025 18:04:59 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/14/2025 5:22 PM, John Day wrote: > I was speaking of FTP where email started. Hmmm.? Well, strictly speaking, networked email started with Tenex CPYNET. And given the popularity of Tenex within the Arpanet community, it had a fairly robust life with until the FTP mechanism got traction a couple of years (or so) later. >> On Oct 14, 2025, at 20:01, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >> >> On 10/14/2025 4:14 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >>> Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? >> In practical terms, there was no 'official' email character set until, perhaps, RFC 475 (March 1973) with the FTP MAIL command using Telnet. The MLFL command doesn't seem to declare a character set. Not that a year and a half with no character set 'official' convention was all that long... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 02:58:00 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 05:58:00 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> Message-ID: ;-) lol > On Oct 14, 2025, at 21:04, Dave Crocker wrote: > > On 10/14/2025 5:22 PM, John Day wrote: >> I was speaking of FTP where email started. > Hmmm. Well, strictly speaking, networked email started with Tenex CPYNET. > > And given the popularity of Tenex within the Arpanet community, it had a fairly robust life with until the FTP mechanism got traction a couple of years (or so) later. > > > > > >>> On Oct 14, 2025, at 20:01, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> On 10/14/2025 4:14 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >>>> Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? >>> In practical terms, there was no 'official' email character set until, perhaps, RFC 475 (March 1973) with the FTP MAIL command using Telnet. The MLFL command doesn't seem to declare a character set. Not that a year and a half with no character set 'official' convention was all that long... > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 05:21:23 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 08:21:23 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> Message-ID: Ooops! That one got away from me and just noticed it. You are absolutely right, David. It is absolutely clear that the SMTP was derived from Tenex mail. The similarity in the commands and responses is unmistakable! How did I miss it! Thanks for pointing it out. Take care, John > On Oct 15, 2025, at 05:58, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > ;-) lol > >> On Oct 14, 2025, at 21:04, Dave Crocker wrote: >> >> On 10/14/2025 5:22 PM, John Day wrote: >>> I was speaking of FTP where email started. >> Hmmm. Well, strictly speaking, networked email started with Tenex CPYNET. >> >> And given the popularity of Tenex within the Arpanet community, it had a fairly robust life with until the FTP mechanism got traction a couple of years (or so) later. >> >> >> >> >> >>>> On Oct 14, 2025, at 20:01, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >>>> >>>> On 10/14/2025 4:14 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> Wasn?t the ?official? ARPANET format ASCII which as relate ended a line with CR LF. (Carriage Return, Line Feed)? >>>> In practical terms, there was no 'official' email character set until, perhaps, RFC 475 (March 1973) with the FTP MAIL command using Telnet. The MLFL command doesn't seem to declare a character set. Not that a year and a half with no character set 'official' convention was all that long... >> >> d/ >> >> -- >> Dave Crocker >> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> bbiw.net >> bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social >> mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From johnl at iecc.com Wed Oct 15 06:30:43 2025 From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine) Date: 15 Oct 2025 09:30:43 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> Message-ID: <2c69b2ad-b05b-fa87-6dd6-40da12cbe4f1@iecc.com> On Tue, 14 Oct 2025, Greg Skinner wrote: >> The 1975 v6 version of /bin/mail had no special From processing and no >> network code. The v7 version had code to work with uucp and has the >> >From hack. The date on the source file is May 5 1979 so that's the >> latest possible but it was more likely added in 1978 when uucp was >> written. > The Unix Tree source code for mail.c from V7 Unix (dated 1979-05-05) has a call to sendmail() implementing the >From hack. [1] Right. That's a sendmail() routine in mail.c, not a separate sendmail program. Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From dcrocker at bbiw.net Wed Oct 15 08:04:10 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 08:04:10 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> > You are absolutely right, David. It is absolutely clear that the SMTP was derived from Tenex mail. > The similarity in the commands and responses is unmistakable! How did I miss it! This venue's having a focus on historical detail, it's worth being clear about specific bits of the email origin story: 1. Initial Arpanet discussions about email were going in the direction of creating a mechanism to send an email to a remote printer, print it out, and have it distributed through inter-office mail.(RFC 278)? This matched the model for memo transmission in organizations of the time.? (Possibly worth noting is that MCI Mail, built 10 years later, actual implemented this option -- albeit at a city level with 4-hour courier or overnight postal delivery.) 2. Ray Tomlinson did not like that approach and decided to do a quick hack to show an alternative, at the end of 1971. He modified Tenex sndmsg to support the @hostname syntax,? linked in the Tenex cpynet mechanism to move the message to the hostname host.? I don't recall whether mods to the receive side were required.? (I had not known about Ray's process for deciding to do this, until the relatively recent public issues with a guy's claiming to have invented emai. This prompted discussion within the email community, including Ray's reciting his motivational basis.? One might note some process similarity with the Multics -> Unix sequence...) 3. Since Tenex was popular in the Arpanet community, Ray's hack propagated quickly. 4. Email was not in the original 1971 or 1972 Bhushan FTP specifications, but discussions moved to the addition of the MAIL and MLFL commands, permitting sending a message to a single recipient.? Craig's paper goes into the sequence in detail. From a quick scan, it appears the MAIL and MLFL command details did not show up in the FTP spec, itself, until 1980. 5. The success of this early service prompted discussions about a more capable version, with proposals inside and outside the Arpanet community.? MTP was an example from inside.? It did not go far.? A 'S'implified version, was produced at the end of 1982, 10 years after email had been in operation on the Arpanet. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From vgcerf at gmail.com Wed Oct 15 08:36:28 2025 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:36:28 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> Message-ID: there was also an effort to implement a secure version of mail - that did not work out and we have ended up with things like PGP and some other variations that have made it into practice but not as widely as I think many might wish. v On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:04?AM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > You are absolutely right, David. It is absolutely clear that the SMTP > was derived from Tenex mail. > > The similarity in the commands and responses is unmistakable! How did I > miss it! > > > This venue's having a focus on historical detail, it's worth being clear > about specific bits of the email origin story: > > 1. Initial Arpanet discussions about email were going in the direction > of creating a mechanism to send an email to a remote printer, print it > out, and have it distributed through inter-office mail.(RFC 278) This > matched the model for memo transmission in organizations of the time. > (Possibly worth noting is that MCI Mail, built 10 years later, actual > implemented this option -- albeit at a city level with 4-hour courier or > overnight postal delivery.) > > 2. Ray Tomlinson did not like that approach and decided to do a quick > hack to show an alternative, at the end of 1971. He modified Tenex > sndmsg to support the @hostname syntax, linked in the Tenex cpynet > mechanism to move the message to the hostname host. I don't recall > whether mods to the receive side were required. (I had not known about > Ray's process for deciding to do this, until the relatively recent > public issues with a guy's claiming to have invented emai. This prompted > discussion within the email community, including Ray's reciting his > motivational basis. One might note some process similarity with the > Multics -> Unix sequence...) > > 3. Since Tenex was popular in the Arpanet community, Ray's hack > propagated quickly. > > 4. Email was not in the original 1971 or 1972 Bhushan FTP > specifications, but discussions moved to the addition of the MAIL and > MLFL commands, permitting sending a message to a single recipient. > Craig's paper goes into the sequence in detail. From a quick scan, it > appears the MAIL and MLFL command details did not show up in the FTP > spec, itself, until 1980. > > 5. The success of this early service prompted discussions about a more > capable version, with proposals inside and outside the Arpanet > community. MTP was an example from inside. It did not go far. A > 'S'implified version, was produced at the end of 1982, 10 years after > email had been in operation on the Arpanet. > > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From craig at tereschau.net Wed Oct 15 08:49:26 2025 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 09:49:26 -0600 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 9:04?AM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > 2. Ray Tomlinson did not like that approach and decided to do a quick > hack to show an alternative, at the end of 1971. He modified Tenex > sndmsg to support the @hostname syntax, linked in the Tenex cpynet > mechanism to move the message to the hostname host. I don't recall > whether mods to the receive side were required. (I had not known about > Ray's process for deciding to do this, until the relatively recent > public issues with a guy's claiming to have invented emai. This prompted > discussion within the email community, including Ray's reciting his > motivational basis. One might note some process similarity with the > Multics -> Unix sequence...) > No change on receive side because Ray assumed he was exchanging email between TENEX machines and TENEX had a well known location for the user's mailbox, so sndmsg used cpynet to append the new message to the specified user's mailbox file on the remote system. This, of course, meant that initially, email only worked on TENEX but since about half of all ARPANET systems at the time were TENEX, email still took off. Fitting email into FTP and picking up on Dick Watson's idea that there should be an indirection between user name and mailbox (so that different systems could specify where user mailboxes lived) happened in summer 1972 (a year after Tomlinson's initial work). Watson's indirection solved a lot of issues, but Multics ran into the issue of needing an intermediate user identity to receive the mail and figure out what mailbox to put it in, so Mike Padlipsky invented ANONYMOUS. > > 4. Email was not in the original 1971 or 1972 Bhushan FTP > specifications, but discussions moved to the addition of the MAIL and > MLFL commands, permitting sending a message to a single recipient. > Craig's paper goes into the sequence in detail. From a quick scan, it > appears the MAIL and MLFL command details did not show up in the FTP > spec, itself, until 1980. > > As Dave indicates, I wrote a paper about this topic (in 2008, based on interviews with most of the key participants) in IEEE Annals (126 footnotes, some of which discuss various points of, usually minor, disagreement in people's memories about how things evolved). You can download a copy at: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nPFLlLbjmZn8QrT9bWUt8NLqLE6R2n6q/view?usp=sharing Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 08:53:17 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 11:53:17 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> Message-ID: The other thing Multics did about mail was to add an append access control mode to the system. Multics was always more concerned about security than the rest of us, but there wasn?t much we could about it then. John > On Oct 15, 2025, at 11:49, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 9:04?AM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> 2. Ray Tomlinson did not like that approach and decided to do a quick >> hack to show an alternative, at the end of 1971. He modified Tenex >> sndmsg to support the @hostname syntax, linked in the Tenex cpynet >> mechanism to move the message to the hostname host. I don't recall >> whether mods to the receive side were required. (I had not known about >> Ray's process for deciding to do this, until the relatively recent >> public issues with a guy's claiming to have invented emai. This prompted >> discussion within the email community, including Ray's reciting his >> motivational basis. One might note some process similarity with the >> Multics -> Unix sequence...) >> > > No change on receive side because Ray assumed he was exchanging email > between TENEX machines and TENEX had a well known location for the user's > mailbox, so sndmsg used cpynet to append the new message to the specified > user's mailbox file on the remote system. > > This, of course, meant that initially, email only worked on TENEX but since > about half of all ARPANET systems at the time were TENEX, email still took > off. > > Fitting email into FTP and picking up on Dick Watson's idea that there > should be an indirection between user name and mailbox (so that different > systems could specify where user mailboxes lived) happened in summer 1972 > (a year after Tomlinson's initial work). Watson's indirection solved a lot > of issues, but Multics ran into the issue of needing an intermediate user > identity to receive the mail and figure out what mailbox to put it in, so > Mike Padlipsky invented ANONYMOUS. > > >> >> 4. Email was not in the original 1971 or 1972 Bhushan FTP >> specifications, but discussions moved to the addition of the MAIL and >> MLFL commands, permitting sending a message to a single recipient. >> Craig's paper goes into the sequence in detail. From a quick scan, it >> appears the MAIL and MLFL command details did not show up in the FTP >> spec, itself, until 1980. >> >> > As Dave indicates, I wrote a paper about this topic (in 2008, based on > interviews with most of the key participants) in IEEE Annals (126 > footnotes, some of which discuss various points of, usually minor, > disagreement in people's memories about how things evolved). You can > download a copy at: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1nPFLlLbjmZn8QrT9bWUt8NLqLE6R2n6q/view?usp=sharing > > Craig > > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > mailing lists. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From lear at lear.ch Wed Oct 15 09:14:38 2025 From: lear at lear.ch (Eliot Lear) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 18:14:38 +0200 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> References: <3749e9bb-c84b-49e6-935a-c4cd4c4e4b4c@bbiw.net> <20251014213206.47510E1BC4AD@ary.local> <127bcfe5-c00b-4109-a2c2-1500e16d1369@bbiw.net> <56f78f38-c073-b8ec-020c-39ef673c1c6f@iecc.com> Message-ID: <5cfcd244-b7d4-48f4-b461-f5834a9e7e61@lear.ch> Just to be clear what I'm asking, the >From hack was just about avoiding confusion with message separation.? I'm specifically talking about > quoting someone's message like this. > using the diple as opposed to ? ? ?quoting a message by just indentation, which is what we on the -20s mostly did (I think). Thanks, Eliot On 15.10.2025 00:35, John R. Levine via Internet-history wrote: > On Tue, 14 Oct 2025, Dave Crocker wrote: >> Since Unix was on the Arpanet by no later than 1975. (I don't >> remember what year we got it at UCLA, but I know Rand had it by then. >> >> So, 'long before' would almost require being before Unix was developed. > > I remembered that I have the v6 and v7 source code on my laptop, as > one does. > > The 1975 v6 version of /bin/mail had no special From processing and no > network code.? The v7 version had code to work with uucp and has the > >From hack.? The date on the source file is May 5 1979 so that's the > latest possible but it was more likely added in 1978 when uucp was > written. > > Regards, > John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for > Dummies", > Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 495 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Oct 15 12:09:56 2025 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 15:09:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> Message-ID: <6A75665D-DA4C-4D9B-8F5A-9EF6BA5E40D0@comcast.net> I believe that Multics was shown to be secure. There were a few weak pieces of code but those were easily fixed. > On Oct 15, 2025, at 15:01, Bill Ricker wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 15, 2025 at 11:53?AM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: >> Multics was always more concerned about security than the rest of us, but there wasn?t much we could about it then. > > > Truth. Much of the later work in Security was foreshadowed in Multics. > (Mike Padlipsky and I were in INFOSEC R&D departments at MITRE when we first met. ) > From dcrocker at bbiw.net Wed Oct 15 12:57:15 2025 From: dcrocker at bbiw.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 12:57:15 -0700 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <6A75665D-DA4C-4D9B-8F5A-9EF6BA5E40D0@comcast.net> References: <1F2C1BBD-9CFB-405A-9BDE-7A18BEF6722C@comcast.net> <683133f6-525b-48d8-a30b-7bbcb6accf92@bbiw.net> <1C2211B1-2487-416B-A9DB-DCCBE07C4176@comcast.net> <6b279ac8-32ce-47c1-aa22-55759b470d4f@bbiw.net> <6A75665D-DA4C-4D9B-8F5A-9EF6BA5E40D0@comcast.net> Message-ID: <621b7413-06f1-4f12-bc1a-eaad86054ebc@bbiw.net> On 10/15/2025 12:09 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > I believe that Multics was shown to be secure. The story I heard, back then, was that after the multi-level security enhancement to Multics was done and certified, it was installed at the Pentagon AND at MIT.? I heard that the one at MIT proceeded to constantly crash. Apparently after awhile, the one at MIT was openly declared to NOT be secure, and the crashing stopped... d/ ps.? Within highly constrained environments, I can believe that good security can be achieved.? However we have daily reminders that we still do not know how to make systems secure, at scale. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From steve at shinkuro.com Wed Oct 15 13:12:49 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2025 16:12:49 -0400 Subject: [ih] from whence cometh ">" ? In-Reply-To: <621b7413-06f1-4f12-bc1a-eaad86054ebc@bbiw.net> References: <621b7413-06f1-4f12-bc1a-eaad86054ebc@bbiw.net> Message-ID: <4687F425-03DC-4E96-8F33-AC55BA3EEBC8@shinkuro.com> The Orange Book criterion for security did not address crashes, correctness, etc. the only focus was prevention of leakage of information. Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 15, 2025, at 3:57?PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > ?On 10/15/2025 12:09 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >> I believe that Multics was shown to be secure. > > > The story I heard, back then, was that after the multi-level security enhancement to Multics was done and certified, it was installed at the Pentagon AND at MIT. I heard that the one at MIT proceeded to constantly crash. > > Apparently after awhile, the one at MIT was openly declared to NOT be secure, and the crashing stopped... > > d/ > > ps. Within highly constrained environments, I can believe that good security can be achieved. However we have daily reminders that we still do not know how to make systems secure, at scale. > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history