From frantisek.borsik at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 09:02:38 2025 From: frantisek.borsik at gmail.com (Frantisek Borsik) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 18:02:38 +0100 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 Message-ID: Happy birthday to the Internet! https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik at gmail.com From vgcerf at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 09:37:03 2025 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 12:37:03 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there are so many milestone dates.... v On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Happy birthday to the Internet! > > https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik at gmail.com > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Nov 21 09:48:59 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 09:48:59 -0800 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > there are so many milestone dates.... > > v > > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >> >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >> >> All the best, >> >> Frank >> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >> >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vint at google.com Fri Nov 21 09:50:13 2025 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 12:50:13 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. v On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > there are so many milestone dates.... > > > > v > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > >> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >> > >> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > >> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > >> > >> > >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > >> > >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714> > >> > >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885> > >> > >> Skype: casioa5302ca > >> > >> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> - > >> Unsubscribe: > >> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From aam3sendonly at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 09:59:30 2025 From: aam3sendonly at gmail.com (Alexander McKenzie) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 12:59:30 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Note that the phone line was installed and operational in October (October 29, 1969). This has nothing to do with November 21. In November an IMP (and phone lines) was installed at UCSB. Perhaps that's what this announcement was trying to celebrate? (First possibility of multiple pats between source and destination?) Regards, Alex McKenzie On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:55?PM Alex McKenzie wrote: > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----- > *From:* Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > *To:* Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > *Sent:* Friday, November 21, 2025 at 12:03:21 PM EST > *Subject:* [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > > Happy birthday to the Internet! > > https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > > All the best, > > Frank > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > > *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > > https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > > Skype: casioa5302ca > > frantisek.borsik at gmail.com > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From ajs at crankycanuck.ca Fri Nov 21 10:00:12 2025 From: ajs at crankycanuck.ca (Andrew Sullivan) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 13:00:12 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A76F160-DF7A-4FA2-87B7-EFD92334D064@crankycanuck.ca> First proof that NTP was needed? (Sorry, couldn?t resist.) A ? Andrew Sullivan Please excuse my clumbsy thums > On Nov 21, 2025, at 12:49, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > >> On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> there are so many milestone dates.... >> >> v >> >> >> >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> Happy birthday to the Internet! >>> >>> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >>> >>> All the best, >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>> >>> >>> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >>> >>> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>> >>> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >>> >>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >>> >>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >>> >>> Skype: casioa5302ca >>> >>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> - >>> Unsubscribe: >>> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >>> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Nov 21 11:26:23 2025 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 19:26:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Timeline-creating tool? Message-ID: <84a49b9b-36b2-45e4-b173-8a0023abecd5@dcrocker.net> Folks, There are indeed, many milestones marking Internet history.? As with many other historical evolutions. Are there any recommended tools for creating a publishable timeline, such as one might do for the Internet? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 12:21:53 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2025 09:21:53 +1300 Subject: [ih] Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8b2e7270-5cd6-4e8d-9ad8-a1dcc5cbd7a3@gmail.com> On 22-Nov-25 06:59, Alexander McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: > Note that the phone line was installed and operational in October (October > 29, 1969). This has nothing to do with November 21. > > In November an IMP (and phone lines) was installed at UCSB. Perhaps that's > what this announcement was trying to celebrate? (First possibility of > multiple pats between source and destination?) According to Peter Salus [1] November 21st was "The first Telnet session", between SRI and UCLA. Was that the famous L - O - G - crash! session? Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter [1] Peter H. Salus, Casting the Net, Addison-Wesley, 1995, page 55. > Regards, > Alex McKenzie > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:55?PM Alex McKenzie wrote: > >> >> >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- >> *From:* Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> >> *To:* Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> >> *Sent:* Friday, November 21, 2025 at 12:03:21 PM EST >> *Subject:* [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >> >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >> >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >> >> All the best, >> >> Frank >> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >> >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik >> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 >> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 >> >> Skype: casioa5302ca >> >> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> From mark at governanceprimer.com Fri Nov 21 12:27:00 2025 From: mark at governanceprimer.com (Mark W. Datysgeld) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 17:27:00 -0300 Subject: [ih] Timeline-creating tool? In-Reply-To: <84a49b9b-36b2-45e4-b173-8a0023abecd5@dcrocker.net> References: <84a49b9b-36b2-45e4-b173-8a0023abecd5@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <49393989-ca69-4da3-9847-674976b183dc@governanceprimer.com> Dave, The solution I've been using for Internet Governance history research is?TimelineJS (https://timeline.knightlab.com/) due to its flexibility. You start from your own JSON or?Google Spreadsheet and then scale it as needed for display in a browser context or maybe even as an Electron applet. Best, On 21/11/2025 16:26, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > Folks, > > There are indeed, many milestones marking Internet history.? As with > many other historical evolutions. > > Are there any recommended tools for creating a publishable timeline, > such as one might do for the Internet? > > d/ > -- Mark W. Datysgeld Director at Governance Primer [governanceprimer.com ] Project Lead Developer at ICANNWiki [icannwiki.org ] From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Nov 21 12:37:35 2025 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2025 09:37:35 +1300 Subject: [ih] Timeline-creating tool? In-Reply-To: <84a49b9b-36b2-45e4-b173-8a0023abecd5@dcrocker.net> References: <84a49b9b-36b2-45e4-b173-8a0023abecd5@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <6245830c-6da6-41db-ac82-5d5ebc76d6db@gmail.com> There must be tools, because there are certainly lots of timelines. https://btw.media/history-of-the-internet/ https://www.livescience.com/20727-internet-history.html https://www.webfx.com/blog/internet/the-history-of-the-internet-in-a-nutshell/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-01ii4zX_k https://www.computerhistory.org/internethistory/ https://www.uswitch.com/broadband/guides/broadband-history/ https://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/ https://www.history.com/articles/invention-of-the-internet https://ventcube.com/history-of-the-internet-timeline/ and on and on. What we need is a timeline of the history of Internet timelines. Regards/Ng? mihi Brian Carpenter On 22-Nov-25 08:26, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > Folks, > > There are indeed, many milestones marking Internet history.? As with > many other historical evolutions. > > Are there any recommended tools for creating a publishable timeline, > such as one might do for the Internet? > > d/ > From steve at shinkuro.com Fri Nov 21 12:48:22 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 15:48:22 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <8b2e7270-5cd6-4e8d-9ad8-a1dcc5cbd7a3@gmail.com> References: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> <8b2e7270-5cd6-4e8d-9ad8-a1dcc5cbd7a3@gmail.com> Message-ID: If "Telnet" is meant to refer to the use of the Telnet protocol, I think the answer is no. I don't think we had implementations of Telnet until sometime later. One important date for Telnet was the bake-off at MIT in October 1971. Representatives from each Arpanet site attempted to log into each other Arpanet site. The results were impressive. A physically large matrix was filled in. There were gpas, but with the exception of one site, the connectivity was pretty good. (The software at that one site wasn't ready, so its column and row in the matrix were empty.) If "Telnet" is meant to refer to the very first attempt to log into SRI from UCLA, that was indeed Oct 29, 1969 and did indeed result in the crash. Thinking a bit harder, Nov 21, 1969 may have been the day Larry Roberts came to UCLA, and we may have demonstrated the ability to log into SRI from UCLA. It would have been the same software that was used on Oct 29 except with additional buffer space at SRI to accommodate its multi-character response to a single character, e.g. "GIN" in response to the "G" after LO. Steve On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 3:22?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 22-Nov-25 06:59, Alexander McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: > > Note that the phone line was installed and operational in October > (October > > 29, 1969). This has nothing to do with November 21. > > > > In November an IMP (and phone lines) was installed at UCSB. Perhaps > that's > > what this announcement was trying to celebrate? (First possibility of > > multiple pats between source and destination?) > > According to Peter Salus [1] November 21st was "The first Telnet session", > between SRI and UCLA. Was that the famous L - O - G - crash! session? > > Regards/Ng? mihi > Brian Carpenter > > [1] Peter H. Salus, Casting the Net, Addison-Wesley, 1995, page 55. > > > > Regards, > > Alex McKenzie > > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:55?PM Alex McKenzie > wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- > >> *From:* Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > >> *To:* Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > >> *Sent:* Friday, November 21, 2025 at 12:03:21 PM EST > >> *Subject:* [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > >> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > >> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >> > >> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > >> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > >> > >> > >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik > >> > >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > >> > >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > >> > >> Skype: casioa5302ca > >> > >> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> - > >> Unsubscribe: > >> > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Sent by a Verified sender From jschauma at netmeister.org Fri Nov 21 13:55:16 2025 From: jschauma at netmeister.org (Jan Schaumann) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 16:55:16 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alexander McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: > Note that the phone line was installed and operational in October (October > 29, 1969). This has nothing to do with November 21. > > In November an IMP (and phone lines) was installed at UCSB. Perhaps that's > what this announcement was trying to celebrate? (First possibility of > multiple pats between source and destination?) It seems so. The Wikipedia page for ARPANET[1] says (after noting the "lo" message on 29 October 1969): "The first permanent ARPANET link was established on 21 November 1969, between the IMP at UCLA and the IMP at the Stanford Research Institute." However, there is no citation for that. -Jan [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET From steve at shinkuro.com Fri Nov 21 14:05:52 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 17:05:52 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That just seems wrong. I don't recall any disruption once the line between UCLA was connected. The was undoubtedly installed in advance of the installation of the IMP at SRI, else the IMP wouldn't have been able to talk to anything. The hardware interface for the SRI machine was likely also working either at the time of installation or immediately thereafter. Any delay after that was, as usual, due to software development. I recall Larry Roberts coming for a visit. That was a big deal because he didn't come very often. I recall showing him my implementation of TECO which displayed the contents of the buffer on the DEC 340 display Mike Wingfield had connected to the Sigma 7 for his master's thesis. TECO is remarkably simple to implement, so I didn't think much of it at the time except that it seemed like a cute exercise. Only later did I come to understand that Larry was a serious TECO hacker. More relevantly and more importantly, the fact that we could log into SRI was a relief. Protool developing was taking much longer than I had expected :) Steve On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 4:55?PM Jan Schaumann via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Alexander McKenzie via Internet-history > wrote: > > Note that the phone line was installed and operational in October > (October > > 29, 1969). This has nothing to do with November 21. > > > > In November an IMP (and phone lines) was installed at UCSB. Perhaps > that's > > what this announcement was trying to celebrate? (First possibility of > > multiple pats between source and destination?) > > It seems so. The Wikipedia page for ARPANET[1] says > (after noting the "lo" message on 29 October 1969): > > "The first permanent ARPANET link was established on > 21 November 1969, between the IMP at UCLA and the IMP > at the Stanford Research Institute." > > However, there is no citation for that. > > -Jan > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Sent by a Verified sender From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Nov 21 15:25:16 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 23:25:16 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1775934791.160123.1763747706322@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1962111705.123317.1763767516365@mail.yahoo.com> I have asked Don Nielson (SRI)? to see if he can provide any additional info. I haven't heard back yet. barbara On Friday, November 21, 2025 at 02:06:17 PM PST, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: That just seems wrong.? I don't recall any disruption once the line between UCLA was connected.? The was undoubtedly installed in advance of the installation of the IMP at SRI, else the IMP wouldn't have been able to talk to anything.? The hardware interface for the SRI machine was likely also working either at the time of installation or immediately thereafter. Any delay after that was, as usual, due to software development. I recall Larry Roberts coming for a visit.? That was a big deal because he didn't come very often.? I recall showing him my implementation of TECO which displayed the contents of the buffer on the DEC 340 display Mike Wingfield had connected to the Sigma 7 for his master's thesis.? TECO is remarkably simple to implement, so I didn't think much of it at the time except that it seemed like a cute exercise.? Only later did I come to understand that Larry was a serious TECO hacker.? More relevantly and more importantly, the fact that we could log into SRI was a relief.? Protool developing was taking much longer than I had expected :) Steve On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 4:55?PM Jan Schaumann via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Alexander McKenzie via Internet-history > wrote: > > Note that the phone line was installed and operational in October > (October > > 29, 1969).? This has nothing to do with November 21. > > > > In November an IMP (and phone lines) was installed at UCSB.? Perhaps > that's > > what this announcement was trying to celebrate? (First possibility of > > multiple pats between source and destination?) > > It seems so.? The Wikipedia page for ARPANET[1] says > (after noting the "lo" message on 29 October 1969): > > "The first permanent ARPANET link was established on > 21 November 1969, between the IMP at UCLA and the IMP > at the Stanford Research Institute." > > However, there is no citation for that. > > -Jan > > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPANET > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Sent by a Verified sender -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From hauben at columbia.edu Fri Nov 21 17:01:44 2025 From: hauben at columbia.edu (Jay Hauben) Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 20:01:44 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 72, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ARPANET was a single network not an internetwork. Apologies if inappropriate. Jay On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 3:00?PM wrote: > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to internet-history@ > elists. isoc. org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https: //urldefense. com/v3/__https: //elists. isoc. > org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzZSVyM6xg$ > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerStart > This Message Is From an External Sender > This message came from outside your organization. > > ZjQcmQRYFpfptBannerEnd > > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzZSVyM6xg$ > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > (Andrew Sullivan) > 2. Timeline-creating tool? (Dave Crocker) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 13:00:12 -0500 > From: Andrew Sullivan > To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, > 1969 > Message-ID: <3A76F160-DF7A-4FA2-87B7-EFD92334D064 at crankycanuck.ca> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > First proof that NTP was needed? (Sorry, couldn?t resist.) > > A > ? > Andrew Sullivan > Please excuse my clumbsy thums > > > On Nov 21, 2025, at 12:49, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > > ?Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > > > >> On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >> there are so many milestone dates.... > >> > >> v > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >>> Happy birthday to the Internet! > >>> > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzYbLJVyaA$ > >>> > >>> All the best, > >>> > >>> Frank > >>> > >>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >>> > >>> > >>> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > >>> > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96Uzabqbi93g$ > >>> > >>> > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzbbM2XwMg$ > >>> > >>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 > >>> > >>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 > >>> > >>> Skype: casioa5302ca > >>> > >>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com > >>> -- > >>> Internet-history mailing list > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzZSVyM6xg$ > >>> - > >>> Unsubscribe: > >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The*20list*20to*20be*20unsubscribed*20from=Internet-history__;JSUlJSU!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzbhqjQGMQ$ > >>> > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzZSVyM6xg$ > > - > > Unsubscribe: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The*20list*20to*20be*20unsubscribed*20from=Internet-history__;JSUlJSU!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzbhqjQGMQ$ > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 21 Nov 2025 19:26:23 +0000 (UTC) > From: Dave Crocker > To: Internet-history > Subject: [ih] Timeline-creating tool? > Message-ID: <84a49b9b-36b2-45e4-b173-8a0023abecd5 at dcrocker.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > Folks, > > There are indeed, many milestones marking Internet history.? As with > many other historical evolutions. > > Are there any recommended tools for creating a publishable timeline, > such as one might do for the Internet? > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorkingbbiw.net > bluesky: @dcrocker.bsky.social > mast: @dcrocker at mastodon.social > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Internet-history mailing listInternet-history at elists.isoc.orghttps://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzZSVyM6xg$ > - > Unsubscribe: https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The*20list*20to*20be*20unsubscribed*20from=Internet-history__;JSUlJSU!!BDUfV1Et5lrpZQ!XKFRahFIDvXazTvYIGvRTIiKzR_-K8GNLWyI_hAzandKTaZKw8NjlDhHmlfykESAV45yH5ep7dc6VJJhqcgTet96UzbhqjQGMQ$ > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 72, Issue 2 > *********************************************** > > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 12:22:00 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 20:22:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <2065958988.8743.1763748844825@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <189861345.452341.1763929320832@mail.yahoo.com> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry.? I did cut out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC meeting.? barbara ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 "*** paragraph deleted***** I'm certain about the following: 1.? First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and Charlie Kline of UCLA ??? on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969.? I tried my best to confirm the date ??? while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber ??? the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other stuff on file at ??? Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI end, indicating no big ??? deal at the time.? So, what has come to be accepted derives from a brief jot on Charlie's ??? scratchpad:? "22:30? Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill are still around ??? and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in some places. 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference in WDC ??? of NCP in Oct 19723. 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976.? PRNET and ARPANET. 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977.? PRNET, SATNET, and ARPANET. All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by someone. Take good care,? Don On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: Hi Don Hope you are doing well.? This came up on the internet history list.? I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log.? Hope you have a good holiday.? barbara ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history To: Jack Haverty Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. v On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > there are so many milestone dates.... > > > > v > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > >> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >> > >> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > >> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Nov 23 12:48:29 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 12:48:29 -0800 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <189861345.452341.1763929320832@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2065958988.8743.1763748844825@mail.yahoo.com> <189861345.452341.1763929320832@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually happened on November 21, 1969...?? ?/Jack On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry.? I did cut out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC meeting. > barbara > ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > "*** paragraph deleted***** > > I'm certain about the following: > > 1.? First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and Charlie Kline of UCLA > ??? on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969.? I tried my best to confirm the date > ??? while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber > ??? the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other stuff on file at > ??? Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI end, indicating no big > ??? deal at the time.? So, what has come to be accepted derives from a brief jot on Charlie's > ??? scratchpad:? "22:30? Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill are still around > ??? and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in some places. > 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference in WDC > ??? of NCP in Oct 19723. > 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976.? PRNET and ARPANET. > 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977.? PRNET, SATNET, and ARPANET. > > All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by someone. > Take good care,? Don > > > On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: > > > Hi Don > Hope you are doing well.? This came up on the internet history list.? I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. > Hope you have a good holiday. > barbara > ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history To: Jack Haverty Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. > v > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" > > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > > > > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > there are so many milestone dates.... > > > > > > v > > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < > > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > > >> > > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > > >> > > >> All the best, > > >> > > >> Frank > > >> > > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >> > > >> > > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > > >> > > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From steve at shinkuro.com Sun Nov 23 13:04:57 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 16:04:57 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack > >> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC meeting. >> barbara >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >> "*** paragraph deleted***** >> I'm certain about the following: >> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and Charlie Kline of UCLA >> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to confirm the date >> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber >> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other stuff on file at >> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI end, indicating no big >> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives from a brief jot on Charlie's >> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill are still around >> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in some places. >> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference in WDC >> of NCP in Oct 19723. >> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. >> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and ARPANET. >> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by someone. >> Take good care, Don >> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: >> Hi Don >> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history list. I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. >> Hope you have a good holiday. >> barbara >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history To: Jack Haverty Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. >> v >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" >> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack >> > >> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> > > there are so many milestone dates.... >> > > >> > > v >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < >> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >> > >> >> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >> > >> >> > >> All the best, >> > >> >> > >> Frank >> > >> >> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >> > >> >> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sun Nov 23 13:15:29 2025 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 21:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <231848365.472428.1763932529723@mail.yahoo.com> I need to contact Marc Weber about something else.? I know he is really busy right now as I saw him at the CHM Pixar event last week.? If we don't hear an answer to your question soon, I will send him email. BTW,? I found the Pixar panel interesting.? Here is a link. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_c9CmnG3UzE barbara On Sunday, November 23, 2025 at 01:05:20 PM PST, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA.? I'll try to check with Kleinrock. Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually happened on November 21, 1969...?? /Jack > >> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>? Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry.? I did cut out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC meeting. >> barbara >>? ? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >>? "*** paragraph deleted***** >>? ? I'm certain about the following: >>? ? 1.? First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and Charlie Kline of UCLA >>? ? ? on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969.? I tried my best to confirm the date >>? ? ? while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber >>? ? ? the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other stuff on file at >>? ? ? Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI end, indicating no big >>? ? ? deal at the time.? So, what has come to be accepted derives from a brief jot on Charlie's >>? ? ? scratchpad:? "22:30? Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill are still around >>? ? ? and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in some places. >>? 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference in WDC >>? ? ? of NCP in Oct 19723. >>? 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976.? PRNET and ARPANET. >>? 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977.? PRNET, SATNET, and ARPANET. >>? ? All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by someone. >>? Take good care,? Don >>? ? ? On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: >>? ? ? Hi Don >>? Hope you are doing well.? This came up on the internet history list.? I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. >>? Hope you have a good holiday. >>? barbara >>? ? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history To: Jack Haverty Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >>? ? crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. >>? v >>? ? ? On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >>? internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>? ? > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" >>? > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack >>? > >>? > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>? > > there are so many milestone dates.... >>? > > >>? > > v >>? > > >>? > > >>? > > >>? > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < >>? > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>? > > >>? > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >>? > >> >>? > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >>? > >> >>? > >> All the best, >>? > >> >>? > >> Frank >>? > >> >>? > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>? > >> >>? > >> >>? > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >>? > >> >>? > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >>? ? ? ? ? > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Nov 23 14:50:49 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 14:50:49 -0800 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <6043d87e-536d-46a1-8859-ceda2d3663b6@3kitty.org> There was a process involved in adding an IMP to the ARPANET.? It no doubt changed over time, so what happened with IMP #1 and #2 may be different.? ?I tried asking Ben Barker, since he is mentioned in that 1969 log entry, but the email addresses I have sadly no longer work. IMPs had "fake hosts" which acted like real hosts but were implemented as software inside the IMP.? Back in 2012, Ben was helping with the resurrection of the old IMP code and told me: "The IMP code supported a number of "fake hosts". The TTY was one. DDT was another. There may have been another 1 or 2; I had no use for them if they existed, and do not remember them. Each IMP had a hardware card that contained its IMP number, I believe. There was a bit in the header that specified whether the message was for a real host or a fake host. I believe that the TTY was fake host 1 and the DDT was fake host zero. I believe that the default was that the TTY would be set to connect to the same IMP's DDT." Part of the process of getting an IMP online was to first get the two IMPs talking to each other. The TTY on one IMP could connect to the TTY on the other IMP, so the engineers at the two sites could "talk" over the net. You could also connect to the remote IMP's debugger (DDT) and examine or modify the remote machine's memory. After all that connectivity was working and the IMPs were judged functional, then the actual physical hosts could test their ability to communicate. So it's possible that the fuzziness in the timeline was because it may have taken a few weeks to run tests, get all the bugs out, and then declare the first 2 nodes of the ARPANET, and the NCPs in their attached hosts, to be "in service".? ?The stories I've heard recounted that the initial testing crashed with only the LO part of LOGIN successful. One of the other fake hosts in the early IMPs was the one that sent measurement data to UCLA.? More than a decade later, when we were involved in getting TCP/IP deployed, we noticed that the UCLA fake host was still in the code.? So we used it to create a "Remote Datascope" for DDN (of course, worked in other ARPANET clones too) that could capture the TCP and IP headers of host-host traffic -- invaluable for figuring out what TCP was doing, especially as newly-written implementations by big government contractors were coming online. I doubt anyone knew, in 1969, what was starting then and how important it would be. /Jack On 11/23/25 13:04, Steve Crocker wrote: > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack >> >>> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC meeting. >>> barbara >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >>> "*** paragraph deleted***** >>> I'm certain about the following: >>> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and Charlie Kline of UCLA >>> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to confirm the date >>> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber >>> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other stuff on file at >>> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI end, indicating no big >>> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives from a brief jot on Charlie's >>> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill are still around >>> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in some places. >>> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference in WDC >>> of NCP in Oct 19723. >>> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. >>> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and ARPANET. >>> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by someone. >>> Take good care, Don >>> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: >>> Hi Don >>> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history list. I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. >>> Hope you have a good holiday. >>> barbara >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history To: Jack Haverty Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >>> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. >>> v >>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" >>> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack >>> > >>> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> > > there are so many milestone dates.... >>> > > >>> > > v >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < >>> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >>> > >> >>> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >>> > >> >>> > >> All the best, >>> > >> >>> > >> Frank >>> > >> >>> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >>> > >> >>> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>> >>> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vint at google.com Sun Nov 23 15:16:36 2025 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 18:16:36 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <6043d87e-536d-46a1-8859-ceda2d3663b6@3kitty.org> References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> <6043d87e-536d-46a1-8859-ceda2d3663b6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: I made heavy use of the fake hosts for generating traffic, absorbing traffic, reflecting traffic (ping) and for tracing paths taken by packets. v On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 5:51?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > There was a process involved in adding an IMP to the ARPANET. It no > doubt changed over time, so what happened with IMP #1 and #2 may be > different. I tried asking Ben Barker, since he is mentioned in that > 1969 log entry, but the email addresses I have sadly no longer work. > > IMPs had "fake hosts" which acted like real hosts but were implemented > as software inside the IMP. Back in 2012, Ben was helping with the > resurrection of the old IMP code and told me: > > "The IMP code supported a number of "fake hosts". The TTY was one. DDT > was > another. There may have been another 1 or 2; I had no use for them if they > existed, and do not remember them. > > Each IMP had a hardware card that contained its IMP number, I believe. > > There was a bit in the header that specified whether the message was for a > real host or a fake host. > > I believe that the TTY was fake host 1 and the DDT was fake host zero. > > I believe that the default was that the TTY would be set to connect to the > same IMP's DDT." > > > Part of the process of getting an IMP online was to first get the two > IMPs talking to each other. The TTY on one IMP could connect to the TTY > on the other IMP, so the engineers at the two sites could "talk" over > the net. You could also connect to the remote IMP's debugger (DDT) and > examine or modify the remote machine's memory. > > After all that connectivity was working and the IMPs were judged > functional, then the actual physical hosts could test their ability to > communicate. > > So it's possible that the fuzziness in the timeline was because it may > have taken a few weeks to run tests, get all the bugs out, and then > declare the first 2 nodes of the ARPANET, and the NCPs in their attached > hosts, to be "in service". The stories I've heard recounted that the > initial testing crashed with only the LO part of LOGIN successful. > > One of the other fake hosts in the early IMPs was the one that sent > measurement data to UCLA. More than a decade later, when we were > involved in getting TCP/IP deployed, we noticed that the UCLA fake host > was still in the code. So we used it to create a "Remote Datascope" for > DDN (of course, worked in other ARPANET clones too) that could capture > the TCP and IP headers of host-host traffic -- invaluable for figuring > out what TCP was doing, especially as newly-written implementations by > big government contractors were coming online. > > I doubt anyone knew, in 1969, what was starting then and how important > it would be. > > /Jack > > On 11/23/25 13:04, Steve Crocker wrote: > > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 > was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. > > > > Steve > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >> ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually > happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack > >> > >>> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > >>> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the > first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 > ICC meeting. > >>> barbara > >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson < > nielsonz at pacbell.net>To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, > November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET > Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > >>> "*** paragraph deleted***** > >>> I'm certain about the following: > >>> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and > Charlie Kline of UCLA > >>> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to > confirm the date > >>> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even > I and Marc Weber > >>> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and > other stuff on file at > >>> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI > end, indicating no big > >>> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives from > a brief jot on Charlie's > >>> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and > Bill are still around > >>> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted > in some places. > >>> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication > Conference in WDC > >>> of NCP in Oct 19723. > >>> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. > >>> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and > ARPANET. > >>> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by > someone. > >>> Take good care, Don > >>> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: > >>> Hi Don > >>> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history > list. I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. > >>> Hope you have a good holiday. > >>> barbara > >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via > Internet-history To: Jack Haverty < > jack at 3kitty.org> Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at > 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: > November 21, 1969 > >>> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. > >>> v > >>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via > Internet-history < > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on > November 21st" > >>> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > >>> > > >>> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >>> > > there are so many milestone dates.... > >>> > > > >>> > > v > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via > Internet-history < > >>> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> > > > >>> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > >>> > >> > >>> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > >>> > >> > >>> > >> All the best, > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Frank > >>> > >> > >>> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >>> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > >>> > >> > >>> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > >>> > >>> > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> - > >> Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Nov 23 17:13:20 2025 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 17:13:20 -0800 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <221943D2-A437-4300-B39D-B04573197437@shinkuro.com> References: <221943D2-A437-4300-B39D-B04573197437@shinkuro.com> Message-ID: <83dd9fd8-ed9c-4b90-8967-e32899cf515f@3kitty.org> Steve, You might be interested in the behind-the-scenes story.? When I was working on a patent fight in 2012, Ben reminisced about IMP1: "You spoke of how tight the IMP code was.? Do remember that the entire thing, buffers, data structures, and all, fit in 12k 16-bit words.? I shudder to think. Just before we were to ship IMP 1, we had a problem where the machines would crash mysteriously about once per 24 hours.? It was a weird crash, with the PC pointing at a completely random place, typically in a chain of non-executable locations in a data structure, with no way it could have gotten there.? The location before would have caused a crash, there were no jumps to it (with or without indexing ior indirection). I concluded that it had to be a race condition with the heavy use of the DMC channel.? I went through the Honeywell drawings of the 516 processor and found a place where the timing looked too tight. I figured a way to? patch it in the processor.? I rewired it less than 24 hours before scheduled ship.? It fixed the problem and the machine shipped on schedule.? We had a heck of a time convincing Honeywell that they had this fundamental design flaw in the central timing chain of their machine, but they eventually were convinced and made the change in their future machines." Ben did a lot of the work involved in actually getting IMPs to work in the field.? ?Most of that has probably never been publicized, being not as interesting as things like routing algorithms.? ?But when we were tasked by Vint to "make the Internet into a 24x7 operational service", the ARPANET guys were just down the hall operating the ARPANET so it was easy to do technology transfer to the Internet. Ben was a hardware guy and a "doer"; here's another of his recollections about the "reload from neighbor" capability: "I wrote a lot of 316 code.? As you say, it was pretty easy after writing lots of assembler code for the PDP-1, PDP-8, PDP-10, and a bunch of others. ??I wrote all the IMP diagnostics that I used in checking out all the interfaces.? (Did you know that the 516 IMPs were shipped with an optical paper tape reader that was automatically activated by the Watch Dog Timer?? With a big old relay that would power the PTR up?)? That was a pain, particularly given that the paper tape had to be picked up off the floor and rolled up again.? There were 3 copies of the whole program on the tape, but after 3 tries, you were done.? And the tape would get misplaced by site personnel.? I figured out the trick of setting up a machine to do a Modem n input over all memory and setting up its neighbor to do the output from all memory as a MUCH better way to reload the IMP.? And you didn?t have to send out new paper tapes to all the sites and get someone to mount them every time you did a patch." So you can blame Ben for getting IMP1 onsite, working, early, and destroying your grace period.? I've learned that researchers rarely think about operational issues, and the people who get it running have to fill in the gaps - even if it means fixing someone else's design flaw or mitigating the effects of onsite conditions. Enjoy the history! /Jack On 11/23/25 15:30, Steve Crocker wrote: > Jack, > > BBN was having hardware trouble as the time neared for the delivery of > the first IMP. ?I was relieved because we were running late with our > software to talk to the IMP. ?I figured the IMP would arrive and then > a Honeywell technician would show, followed sometime later by a BBN > person to check it out. ?I figured I had at least two weeks grace. ?No > such luck. ?They fixed hardware glitch, put the IMP on a plane and > delivered it two daysa EARLY. ?Worse yet, they plugged it and it > worked immediately :) > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 23, 2025, at 6:16?PM, Vint Cerf wrote: >> >> ? >> I made heavy use of the fake hosts for generating traffic, absorbing >> traffic, reflecting traffic (ping) and for tracing paths taken by >> packets. >> >> v >> >> >> On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 5:51?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> wrote: >> >> There was a process involved in adding an IMP to the ARPANET. It no >> doubt changed over time, so what happened with IMP #1 and #2 may be >> different.? ?I tried asking Ben Barker, since he is mentioned in >> that >> 1969 log entry, but the email addresses I have sadly no longer work. >> >> IMPs had "fake hosts" which acted like real hosts but were >> implemented >> as software inside the IMP.? Back in 2012, Ben was helping with the >> resurrection of the old IMP code and told me: >> >> "The IMP code supported a number of "fake hosts".? The TTY was >> one.? DDT was >> another.? There may have been another 1 or 2; I had no use for >> them if they >> existed, and do not remember them. >> >> Each IMP had a hardware card that contained its IMP number, I >> believe. >> >> There was a bit in the header that specified whether the message >> was for a >> real host or a fake host. >> >> I believe that the TTY was fake host 1 and the DDT was fake host >> zero. >> >> I believe that the default was that the TTY would be set to >> connect to the >> same IMP's DDT." >> >> >> Part of the process of getting an IMP online was to first get the >> two >> IMPs talking to each other. The TTY on one IMP could connect to >> the TTY >> on the other IMP, so the engineers at the two sites could "talk" >> over >> the net. You could also connect to the remote IMP's debugger >> (DDT) and >> examine or modify the remote machine's memory. >> >> After all that connectivity was working and the IMPs were judged >> functional, then the actual physical hosts could test their >> ability to >> communicate. >> >> So it's possible that the fuzziness in the timeline was because >> it may >> have taken a few weeks to run tests, get all the bugs out, and then >> declare the first 2 nodes of the ARPANET, and the NCPs in their >> attached >> hosts, to be "in service".? ?The stories I've heard recounted >> that the >> initial testing crashed with only the LO part of LOGIN successful. >> >> One of the other fake hosts in the early IMPs was the one that sent >> measurement data to UCLA.? More than a decade later, when we were >> involved in getting TCP/IP deployed, we noticed that the UCLA >> fake host >> was still in the code.? So we used it to create a "Remote >> Datascope" for >> DDN (of course, worked in other ARPANET clones too) that could >> capture >> the TCP and IP headers of host-host traffic -- invaluable for >> figuring >> out what TCP was doing, especially as newly-written >> implementations by >> big government contractors were coming online. >> >> I doubt anyone knew, in 1969, what was starting then and how >> important >> it would be. >> >> /Jack >> >> On 11/23/25 13:04, Steve Crocker wrote: >> > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 >> Nov 1969 was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA.? I'll try to check >> with Kleinrock. >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> wrote: >> >> >> >> ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what >> actually happened on November 21, 1969...? ?/Jack >> >> >> >>> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> >>>? ?Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry.? I did cut >> out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo >> regarding the 1972 ICC meeting. >> >>> barbara >> >>>? ? ?----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson >> To: Barbara Denny >> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 >> PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: >> November 21, 1969 >> >>>? ?"*** paragraph deleted***** >> >>>? ? ?I'm certain about the following: >> >>>? ? ?1.? First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI >> and Charlie Kline of UCLA >> >>>? ? ? ?on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969.? I tried my >> best to confirm the date >> >>>? ? ? ?while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of >> UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber >> >>>? ? ? ?the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten >> notebooks and other stuff on file at >> >>>? ? ? ?Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on >> the SRI end, indicating no big >> >>>? ? ? ?deal at the time.? So, what has come to be accepted >> derives from a brief jot on Charlie's >> >>>? ? ? ?scratchpad:? "22:30? Talked to SRI Host to Host". >> Charlie and Bill are still around >> >>>? ? ? ?and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, >> being quoted in some places. >> >>>? ?2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication >> Conference in WDC >> >>>? ? ? ?of NCP in Oct 19723. >> >>>? ?3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976.? PRNET and >> ARPANET. >> >>>? ?4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977.? PRNET, >> SATNET, and ARPANET. >> >>>? ? ?All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an >> aberration by someone. >> >>>? ?Take good care,? Don >> >>>? ? ? ?On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: >> >>>? ? ? ? Hi Don >> >>>? ? Hope you are doing well.? This came up on the internet >> history list.? I am wondering if you could shed some insight on >> the log. >> >>>? ? Hope you have a good holiday. >> >>>? ? barbara >> >>>? ? ? ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via >> Internet-history To: Jack >> Haverty Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" >> Sent: Friday, November 21, >> 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put >> Into Service: November 21, 1969 >> >>>? ? ?crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. >> >>>? ?v >> >>>? ? ? ?On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via >> Internet-history < >> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>>? ? ?> Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened >> on November 21st" >> >>>? ?> but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 >> OCT"? /Jack >> >>>? ?> >> >>>? ?> On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> >>>? ?> > there are so many milestone dates.... >> >>>? ?> > >> >>>? ?> > v >> >>>? ?> > >> >>>? ?> > >> >>>? ?> > >> >>>? ?> > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via >> Internet-history < >> >>>? ?> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>>? ?> > >> >>>? ?> >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> All the best, >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> Frank >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >> >>>? ?> >> >> >>>? ?> >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> - >> >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> >> >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> >> >> >> -- >> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >> Vint Cerf >> Google, LLC >> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor >> Reston, VA 20190 >> +1 (571) 213 1346 >> >> >> until further notice >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From steve at shinkuro.com Sun Nov 23 17:17:15 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 20:17:15 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <83dd9fd8-ed9c-4b90-8967-e32899cf515f@3kitty.org> References: <221943D2-A437-4300-B39D-B04573197437@shinkuro.com> <83dd9fd8-ed9c-4b90-8967-e32899cf515f@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Jack, Interesting. I interviewed Ben and heard some of details. I reply more fully when I have time. Steve Sent by a Verified sender On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 8:13?PM Jack Haverty wrote: > Steve, > > You might be interested in the behind-the-scenes story. When I was > working on a patent fight in 2012, Ben reminisced about IMP1: > > "You spoke of how tight the IMP code was. Do remember that the entire > thing, buffers, data structures, and all, fit in 12k 16-bit words. I > shudder to think. > > Just before we were to ship IMP 1, we had a problem where the machines > would crash mysteriously about once per 24 hours. It was a weird crash, > with the PC pointing at a completely random place, typically in a chain of > non-executable locations in a data structure, with no way it could have > gotten there. The location before would have caused a crash, there were no > jumps to it (with or without indexing ior indirection). I concluded that it > had to be a race condition with the heavy use of the DMC channel. I went > through the Honeywell drawings of the 516 processor and found a place where > the timing looked too tight. I figured a way to patch it in the > processor. I rewired it less than 24 hours before scheduled ship. It > fixed the problem and the machine shipped on schedule. We had a heck of a > time convincing Honeywell that they had this fundamental design flaw in the > central timing chain of their machine, but they eventually were convinced > and made the change in their future machines." > Ben did a lot of the work involved in actually getting IMPs to work in the > field. Most of that has probably never been publicized, being not as > interesting as things like routing algorithms. But when we were tasked by > Vint to "make the Internet into a 24x7 operational service", the ARPANET > guys were just down the hall operating the ARPANET so it was easy to do > technology transfer to the Internet. > > Ben was a hardware guy and a "doer"; here's another of his recollections > about the "reload from neighbor" capability: > > "I wrote a lot of 316 code. As you say, it was pretty easy after writing > lots of assembler code for the PDP-1, PDP-8, PDP-10, and a bunch of others. > I wrote all the IMP diagnostics that I used in checking out all the > interfaces. (Did you know that the 516 IMPs were shipped with an optical > paper tape reader that was automatically activated by the Watch Dog Timer? > With a big old relay that would power the PTR up?) That was a pain, > particularly given that the paper tape had to be picked up off the floor > and rolled up again. There were 3 copies of the whole program on the tape, > but after 3 tries, you were done. And the tape would get misplaced by site > personnel. I figured out the trick of setting up a machine to do a Modem n > input over all memory and setting up its neighbor to do the output from all > memory as a MUCH better way to reload the IMP. And you didn?t have to send > out new paper tapes to all the sites and get someone to mount them every > time you did a patch." > > So you can blame Ben for getting IMP1 onsite, working, early, and > destroying your grace period. I've learned that researchers rarely think > about operational issues, and the people who get it running have to fill in > the gaps - even if it means fixing someone else's design flaw or mitigating > the effects of onsite conditions. > > Enjoy the history! > > /Jack > > On 11/23/25 15:30, Steve Crocker wrote: > > Jack, > > BBN was having hardware trouble as the time neared for the delivery of the > first IMP. I was relieved because we were running late with our software > to talk to the IMP. I figured the IMP would arrive and then a Honeywell > technician would show, followed sometime later by a BBN person to check it > out. I figured I had at least two weeks grace. No such luck. They fixed > hardware glitch, put the IMP on a plane and delivered it two daysa EARLY. > Worse yet, they plugged it and it worked immediately :) > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 23, 2025, at 6:16?PM, Vint Cerf > wrote: > > ? > I made heavy use of the fake hosts for generating traffic, absorbing > traffic, reflecting traffic (ping) and for tracing paths taken by packets. > > v > > > On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 5:51?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> There was a process involved in adding an IMP to the ARPANET. It no >> doubt changed over time, so what happened with IMP #1 and #2 may be >> different. I tried asking Ben Barker, since he is mentioned in that >> 1969 log entry, but the email addresses I have sadly no longer work. >> >> IMPs had "fake hosts" which acted like real hosts but were implemented >> as software inside the IMP. Back in 2012, Ben was helping with the >> resurrection of the old IMP code and told me: >> >> "The IMP code supported a number of "fake hosts". The TTY was one. DDT >> was >> another. There may have been another 1 or 2; I had no use for them if >> they >> existed, and do not remember them. >> >> Each IMP had a hardware card that contained its IMP number, I believe. >> >> There was a bit in the header that specified whether the message was for a >> real host or a fake host. >> >> I believe that the TTY was fake host 1 and the DDT was fake host zero. >> >> I believe that the default was that the TTY would be set to connect to the >> same IMP's DDT." >> >> >> Part of the process of getting an IMP online was to first get the two >> IMPs talking to each other. The TTY on one IMP could connect to the TTY >> on the other IMP, so the engineers at the two sites could "talk" over >> the net. You could also connect to the remote IMP's debugger (DDT) and >> examine or modify the remote machine's memory. >> >> After all that connectivity was working and the IMPs were judged >> functional, then the actual physical hosts could test their ability to >> communicate. >> >> So it's possible that the fuzziness in the timeline was because it may >> have taken a few weeks to run tests, get all the bugs out, and then >> declare the first 2 nodes of the ARPANET, and the NCPs in their attached >> hosts, to be "in service". The stories I've heard recounted that the >> initial testing crashed with only the LO part of LOGIN successful. >> >> One of the other fake hosts in the early IMPs was the one that sent >> measurement data to UCLA. More than a decade later, when we were >> involved in getting TCP/IP deployed, we noticed that the UCLA fake host >> was still in the code. So we used it to create a "Remote Datascope" for >> DDN (of course, worked in other ARPANET clones too) that could capture >> the TCP and IP headers of host-host traffic -- invaluable for figuring >> out what TCP was doing, especially as newly-written implementations by >> big government contractors were coming online. >> >> I doubt anyone knew, in 1969, what was starting then and how important >> it would be. >> >> /Jack >> >> On 11/23/25 13:04, Steve Crocker wrote: >> > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 >> was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. >> > >> > Steve >> > >> > Sent from my iPhone >> > >> >> On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually >> happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack >> >> >> >>> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> >>> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the >> first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 >> ICC meeting. >> >>> barbara >> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson < >> nielsonz at pacbell.net>To: Barbara Denny Sent: >> Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First >> ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >> >>> "*** paragraph deleted***** >> >>> I'm certain about the following: >> >>> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and >> Charlie Kline of UCLA >> >>> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to >> confirm the date >> >>> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even >> I and Marc Weber >> >>> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and >> other stuff on file at >> >>> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI >> end, indicating no big >> >>> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives >> from a brief jot on Charlie's >> >>> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and >> Bill are still around >> >>> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted >> in some places. >> >>> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication >> Conference in WDC >> >>> of NCP in Oct 19723. >> >>> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. >> >>> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and >> ARPANET. >> >>> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration >> by someone. >> >>> Take good care, Don >> >>> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: >> >>> Hi Don >> >>> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history >> list. I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. >> >>> Hope you have a good holiday. >> >>> barbara >> >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via >> Internet-history To: Jack Haverty < >> jack at 3kitty.org> Cc: "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at >> 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: >> November 21, 1969 >> >>> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. >> >>> v >> >>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via >> Internet-history < >> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on >> November 21st" >> >>> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack >> >>> > >> >>> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> >>> > > there are so many milestone dates.... >> >>> > > >> >>> > > v >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > >> >>> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via >> Internet-history < >> >>> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> > > >> >>> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> All the best, >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Frank >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >> >>> > >> >> >>> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >> >>> >> >>> >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> - >> >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> >> >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: >> https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > > > > Reston, VA 20190 > > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > until further notice > > > > > From aam3sendonly at gmail.com Sun Nov 23 18:58:20 2025 From: aam3sendonly at gmail.com (Alexander McKenzie) Date: Sun, 23 Nov 2025 21:58:20 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Fw: First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: <968966731.407875.1763952400636@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> <6043d87e-536d-46a1-8859-ceda2d3663b6@3kitty.org> <968966731.407875.1763952400636@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When IMP #2 was delivered to SRI it was accompanied by Marty Thrope from BBN. Marty connected the IMP to the already installed phone line. Ben Barker was at the UCLA IMP. When Ben saw the UCLA IMP declare the line up, he used the IMP Teletype to send a message to the SRI IMP Teleletype sayin "Hi Misan". ["Misan" was Thrope's Harvard radio station "handle"; Ben was also part of the Harvard radio station crowd.] The message was delivered and Marty responded; then they both went home, mission accomplished. This preceded the well-known first Host-to-Host transmission well documented by Kleinrock. I do not believe IMPs had hardware that gave them their numbers. Ben Barker died a couple of years ago. Alex ----- Forwarded Message ----- *From:* Jack Haverty via Internet-history *To:* Steve Crocker *Cc:* "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" *Sent:* Sunday, November 23, 2025 at 05:51:03 PM EST *Subject:* Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 There was a process involved in adding an IMP to the ARPANET. It no doubt changed over time, so what happened with IMP #1 and #2 may be different. I tried asking Ben Barker, since he is mentioned in that 1969 log entry, but the email addresses I have sadly no longer work. IMPs had "fake hosts" which acted like real hosts but were implemented as software inside the IMP. Back in 2012, Ben was helping with the resurrection of the old IMP code and told me: "The IMP code supported a number of "fake hosts". The TTY was one. DDT was another. There may have been another 1 or 2; I had no use for them if they existed, and do not remember them. Each IMP had a hardware card that contained its IMP number, I believe. There was a bit in the header that specified whether the message was for a real host or a fake host. I believe that the TTY was fake host 1 and the DDT was fake host zero. I believe that the default was that the TTY would be set to connect to the same IMP's DDT." Part of the process of getting an IMP online was to first get the two IMPs talking to each other. The TTY on one IMP could connect to the TTY on the other IMP, so the engineers at the two sites could "talk" over the net. You could also connect to the remote IMP's debugger (DDT) and examine or modify the remote machine's memory. After all that connectivity was working and the IMPs were judged functional, then the actual physical hosts could test their ability to communicate. So it's possible that the fuzziness in the timeline was because it may have taken a few weeks to run tests, get all the bugs out, and then declare the first 2 nodes of the ARPANET, and the NCPs in their attached hosts, to be "in service". The stories I've heard recounted that the initial testing crashed with only the LO part of LOGIN successful. One of the other fake hosts in the early IMPs was the one that sent measurement data to UCLA. More than a decade later, when we were involved in getting TCP/IP deployed, we noticed that the UCLA fake host was still in the code. So we used it to create a "Remote Datascope" for DDN (of course, worked in other ARPANET clones too) that could capture the TCP and IP headers of host-host traffic -- invaluable for figuring out what TCP was doing, especially as newly-written implementations by big government contractors were coming online. I doubt anyone knew, in 1969, what was starting then and how important it would be. /Jack On 11/23/25 13:04, Steve Crocker wrote: > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >> ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack >> >>> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the first paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC meeting. >>> barbara >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >>> "*** paragraph deleted***** >>> I'm certain about the following: >>> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and Charlie Kline of UCLA >>> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to confirm the date >>> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I and Marc Weber >>> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other stuff on file at >>> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI end, indicating no big >>> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives from a brief jot on Charlie's >>> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill are still around >>> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in some places. >>> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference in WDC >>> of NCP in Oct 19723. >>> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. >>> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and ARPANET. >>> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by someone. >>> Take good care, Don >>> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: >>> Hi Don >>> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history list. I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. >>> Hope you have a good holiday. >>> barbara >>> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history To: Jack Haverty Cc: " internet-history at elists.isoc.org" Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 >>> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. >>> v >>> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November 21st" >>> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack >>> > >>> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> > > there are so many milestone dates.... >>> > > >>> > > v >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history < >>> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> > > >>> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! >>> > >> >>> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ >>> > >> >>> > >> All the best, >>> > >> >>> > >> Frank >>> > >> >>> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik >>> > >> >>> > >> >>> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 >>> > >> >>> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ >>> >>> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> - >> Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history >> -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history - Unsubscribe: https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history -------------- next part -------------- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- wsD5BAABCAAjFiEEZLvMn5vmvTAlFEILdGzDIkA7jlAFAmkjj8kFAwAAAAAACgkQdGzDIkA7jlB6 NAv9E3fv8qNLyahnQRofcGVcTbGsVfpZsnkLNzDSPj6wGvv/RB7yV/CxUUXcblsHAEduFW8Jid4m TQ2f/KAttmLNtECjZ4dembwhGZb3lTw+VX1RX/4Y1SsjcWg9YWuyDC3u0+hONOpONrob4+U712gf Fgcxm0efoGvG3VFBKqxregiQzpZB1iaitI9au8Br68SmM7/5wt6YNYWQ+3YfmL6xoAvpK1yjs9vz ZSOO1quS/gXznbaIU5qQJSkhjiBtVxsmbK6tRVymJBwDTpA15VGVxU+ZMlqbcLXt9CAqWUTWgIOg WNbjh3iw1NdCZPYehpnj7lNmVmgXPGnU4GScj+qqGuo1N9NcIp5wohIuaG6PUgr8PfzN+nfmxLYc 9JBjrjwhE2UsnZQotOPEinvWi7yQsjUTFVDrZZozykE/SkomEO2NYmiMEDynDq2PO0/HsRmYbfUL Gcd2jzJufBeB8V9K/o0ajHuru2dPzRUkrzehYoYQBGTAJFbS9z3c3SIgjPpo =Jb14 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From steve at shinkuro.com Mon Nov 24 02:25:12 2025 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2025 05:25:12 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: I checked with Kleinrock. His records note that Larry Roberts visited UCLA on 21 Nov 1969. The FJCC was in Las Vegas the preceding three days. I don't have any direct data indicating Larry went there before coming to UCLA, but it's plausible. Neither Larry nor Barry Wessler came to UCLA very often. I don't recall any other time either of them came during 1968-71. Larry and Len had other opportunities to get together. They knew each other well and did not need formal site visits very often. I moved from UCLA to (D)ARPA to work directly for Larry in mid-1971. I was still enrolled in UCLA as a grad student, so I kept away from contractual interactions with UCLA. Vint may have more to say about whether Larry visited UCLA from mid-1971 onward. Larry's visit on 21 Nov 1969 was memorable for me. Our machine was a Xerox (n?e SDS) Sigma 7. Mike Wingfield had connected a DEC 340 (or maybe 338) display. I had arrived from MIT and had a lot of experience with the TECO editor. I implemented TECO on the Sigma 7 and used the display to show the contents of the buffer. Larry, who usually showed very little emotion, took note of it when I showed him, but didn't say much. Only later, while working for him, did I learn he was an experienced TECO programmer. When email first became operational, he wrote a TECO program to read email. It was painfully slow moving from one message to the next. There was a character count in the email header, but it didn't match the and the character count in the TECO buffer because new line characters in an incoming message were converted to two characters, NL (new line) followed by CR (carriage return), so he advanced the pointer one character at a time to find the next header. I modified his code to speed up the movement by advancing the pointer a line at a time. I'm guessing Peter Salus interviewed Kleinrock or Roberts and somehow fastened on 21 Nov as an important milestone. Steve On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 4:05?PM Steve Crocker wrote: > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 > was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually > happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack > > > >> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > >> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the first > paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC > meeting. > >> barbara > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson < > nielsonz at pacbell.net>To: Barbara Denny Sent: Friday, > November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET > Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > >> "*** paragraph deleted***** > >> I'm certain about the following: > >> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and > Charlie Kline of UCLA > >> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to > confirm the date > >> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I > and Marc Weber > >> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and other > stuff on file at > >> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI > end, indicating no big > >> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives from a > brief jot on Charlie's > >> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and Bill > are still around > >> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted in > some places. > >> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication Conference > in WDC > >> of NCP in Oct 19723. > >> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. > >> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and > ARPANET. > >> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by > someone. > >> Take good care, Don > >> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: > >> Hi Don > >> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history list. > I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. > >> Hope you have a good holiday. > >> barbara > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> To: Jack Haverty Cc: " > internet-history at elists.isoc.org" > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] First > ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > >> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. > >> v > >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on November > 21st" > >> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > >> > > >> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >> > > there are so many milestone dates.... > >> > > > >> > > v > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via > Internet-history < > >> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > >> > >> > >> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > >> > >> > >> > >> All the best, > >> > >> > >> > >> Frank > >> > >> > >> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > >> > >> > >> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > - > > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > > -- Sent by a Verified sender From vint at google.com Mon Nov 24 02:31:23 2025 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2025 05:31:23 -0500 Subject: [ih] First ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 In-Reply-To: References: <1a9618f5-e648-4fc2-88f4-fafb737b16f7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: inline On Mon, Nov 24, 2025 at 5:25?AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I checked with Kleinrock. His records note that Larry Roberts visited UCLA > on 21 Nov 1969. The FJCC was in Las Vegas the preceding three days. I > don't have any direct data indicating Larry went there before coming to > UCLA, but it's plausible. > > Neither Larry nor Barry Wessler came to UCLA very often. I don't recall > any other time either of them came during 1968-71. Larry and Len had other > opportunities to get together. They knew each other well and did not need > formal site visits very often. I moved from UCLA to (D)ARPA to work > directly for Larry in mid-1971. I was still enrolled in UCLA as a grad > student, so I kept away from contractual interactions with UCLA. Vint may > have more to say about whether Larry visited UCLA from mid-1971 onward. > i don't recall larry visiting from mid-1971 to Oct 1972 when I left UCLA to join Stanford faculty. > > Larry's visit on 21 Nov 1969 was memorable for me. Our machine was a Xerox > (n?e SDS) Sigma 7. Mike Wingfield had connected a DEC 340 (or maybe 338) > display. I had arrived from MIT and had a lot of experience with the TECO > editor. I implemented TECO on the Sigma 7 and used the display to show the > contents of the buffer. Larry, who usually showed very little emotion, > took note of it when I showed him, but didn't say much. Only later, while > working for him, did I learn he was an experienced TECO programmer. When > email first became operational, he wrote a TECO program to read email. It > was painfully slow moving from one message to the next. There was a > character count in the email header, but it didn't match the and the > character count in the TECO buffer because new line characters in an > incoming message were converted to two characters, NL (new line) followed > by CR (carriage return), so he advanced the pointer one character at a time > to find the next header. I modified his code to speed up the movement by > advancing the pointer a line at a time. > > I'm guessing Peter Salus interviewed Kleinrock or Roberts and somehow > fastened on 21 Nov as an important milestone. > > Steve > > On Sun, Nov 23, 2025 at 4:05?PM Steve Crocker wrote: > > > After seeing the back and forth on this thread, I now think 21 Nov 1969 > > was when Larry Roberts came to UCLA. I'll try to check with Kleinrock. > > > > Steve > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Nov 23, 2025, at 3:48?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > ?Perhaps someone in the Bay Area can go to CHM and ask what actually > > happened on November 21, 1969...? /Jack > > > > > >> On 11/23/25 12:22, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > >> Here is Don Nielson's response to my inquiry. I did cut out the > first > > paragraph as it only was for me. There is a typo regarding the 1972 ICC > > meeting. > > >> barbara > > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Don Nielson < > > nielsonz at pacbell.net>To: Barbara Denny Sent: > Friday, > > November 21, 2025 at 10:05:40 PM PSTSubject: Re: Fw: [ih] First ARPANET > > Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > > >> "*** paragraph deleted***** > > >> I'm certain about the following: > > >> 1. First ARPANET connection - Between Bill Duvall at SRI and > > Charlie Kline of UCLA > > >> on what has been accepted as 29 Oct 1969. I tried my best to > > confirm the date > > >> while this date was being pushed by Len Kleinrock of UCLA. Even I > > and Marc Weber > > >> the CHM dug into Engelbart's dinky handwritten notebooks and > other > > stuff on file at > > >> Stanford. As far as we could tell, nothing was noted on the SRI > > end, indicating no big > > >> deal at the time. So, what has come to be accepted derives from > a > > brief jot on Charlie's > > >> scratchpad: "22:30 Talked to SRI Host to Host". Charlie and > Bill > > are still around > > >> and have confirmed and elaborated on the incident, being quoted > in > > some places. > > >> 2. ARPANET demo at the International Computer Communication > Conference > > in WDC > > >> of NCP in Oct 19723. > > >> 3. First 2-net demo of TCP was on 27 Aug 1976. PRNET and ARPANET. > > >> 4. First 3-net demo of TCP was on 22 Nov 1977. PRNET, SATNET, and > > ARPANET. > > >> All this is easily available so 21 Nov 1969 seems an aberration by > > someone. > > >> Take good care, Don > > >> On 11/21/25 10:14 AM, Barbara Denny wrote: > > >> Hi Don > > >> Hope you are doing well. This came up on the internet history list. > > I am wondering if you could shed some insight on the log. > > >> Hope you have a good holiday. > > >> barbara > > >> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Vint Cerf via > Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> To: Jack Haverty > Cc: " > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org" > > Sent: Friday, November 21, 2025 at 09:50:33 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] > First > > ARPANET Link Put Into Service: November 21, 1969 > > >> crocker and I were wondering the same thing off the list. > > >> v > > >> On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:49?PM Jack Haverty via > Internet-history > > < > > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > >> > Can anyone explain why the article says "What Happened on > November > > 21st" > > >> > but the image of the "First ARPANET IMP log" shows "29 OCT"? /Jack > > >> > > > >> > On 11/21/25 09:37, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > >> > > there are so many milestone dates.... > > >> > > > > >> > > v > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Fri, Nov 21, 2025 at 12:03?PM Frantisek Borsik via > > Internet-history < > > >> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > >> Happy birthday to the Internet! > > >> > >> > > >> > >> https://www.computerhistory.org/tdih/november/21/ > > >> > >> > > >> > >> All the best, > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Frank > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> *In loving memory of Dave T?ht: *1965-2025 > > >> > >> > > >> > >> https://libreqos.io/2025/04/01/in-loving-memory-of-dave/ > > >> > > >> > > > > > > -- > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > - > > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > > > > > > > > -- > Sent by a Verified > > sender > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > - > Unsubscribe: > https://app.smartsheet.com/b/form/9b6ef0621638436ab0a9b23cb0668b0b?The%20list%20to%20be%20unsubscribed%20from=Internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice