From vgcerf at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 12:18:07 2024
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 15:18:07 -0400
Subject: [ih] Mike Karels has died
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>

Mike Karels died on Sunday.  I don?t have any details other than:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/BSDCan/permalink/10159552565206372/
https://www.gearty-delmore.com/obituaries/michael-mike-karels

Mike was deeply involved in the Berkeley BSD releases as I recall, after he
inherited the TCP/IP implementation for Unix from Bill Joy (am I
remembering that correctly?).

RIP
v


From julf at Julf.com  Tue Jun  4 12:45:32 2024
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 21:45:32 +0200
Subject: [ih] Mike Karels has died
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <39e8eebf-6a69-4f20-a1ba-6785e9d1c781@Julf.com>

Really sad news - sorry to hear. Unfortunately many of us are getting
pretty old.

Back in the day, my anon.penet.fi server was running BSDi UNIX that Mike
provided a major contribution to.
	
	Julf

On 04/06/2024 21:18, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> Mike Karels died on Sunday.  I don?t have any details other than:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/BSDCan/permalink/10159552565206372/
> https://www.gearty-delmore.com/obituaries/michael-mike-karels
> 
> Mike was deeply involved in the Berkeley BSD releases as I recall, after he
> inherited the TCP/IP implementation for Unix from Bill Joy (am I
> remembering that correctly?).
> 
> RIP
> v


From allison.mankin at gmail.com  Tue Jun  4 13:49:45 2024
From: allison.mankin at gmail.com (Allison Mankin)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 16:49:45 -0400
Subject: [ih] Mike Karels has died
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAP8yD=uraTe8u1ad9gUTeXtT_Se6=zsKN3ySYw4F0vtv42_KXw@mail.gmail.com>

Vint,

thanks for sharing this. It?s very sad.

Mike worked with Van Jacobson and was a key person mitigating the 1986 TCP
Congestion collapse and  quickly rolling out Slow Start Congestion
Avoidance. He was a super congenial person to work with during those
stressful times.  As were all of the UCB TCP folks?

Allison

On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 15:18 vinton cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Mike Karels died on Sunday.  I don?t have any details other than:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/BSDCan/permalink/10159552565206372/
> https://www.gearty-delmore.com/obituaries/michael-mike-karels
>
> Mike was deeply involved in the Berkeley BSD releases as I recall, after he
> inherited the TCP/IP implementation for Unix from Bill Joy (am I
> remembering that correctly?).
>
> RIP
> v
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Tue Jun  4 17:35:32 2024
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 17:35:32 -0700
Subject: [ih] Mike Karels has died
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <FE71D2A3-0AEC-4A5E-A1A3-37C9961AE7A4@icloud.com>

On Jun 4, 2024, at 12:18?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Mike Karels died on Sunday.  I don?t have any details other than:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/BSDCan/permalink/10159552565206372/
> https://www.gearty-delmore.com/obituaries/michael-mike-karels
> 
> Mike was deeply involved in the Berkeley BSD releases as I recall, after he
> inherited the TCP/IP implementation for Unix from Bill Joy (am I
> remembering that correctly?).
> 
> RIP
> v

Very sorry to hear this.  Mike's assistance with the BSD Unix implementation of the SRI network reconstitution protocol [1] was very helpful. [2] I remember the day Zaw-Sing Su and I drove up to Berkeley to meet with him.

--gregbo

[1] https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA184755.pdf
[2] https://www.funet.fi/pub/netinfo/NSFNET/InternetMonthlyReport/IMR86-04.TXT (see Jim Mathis' SRI entry)

From vint at google.com  Tue Jun  4 17:53:00 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2024 20:53:00 -0400
Subject: [ih] Mike Karels has died
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_VyiR-_OwWrbEszUjTDdS0w1khwD2vVUNApZpss7Lo15Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggey9JrZ88XNK-nM3HpdrMJ_8ZbyFp3opmh7aSbf-fmyKw@mail.gmail.com>

additional information, sharing with permission:

Mike was at the train station in Ottawa, coming home from BSDCan, where he
collapsed.  The police where there, they did CPR and a defibrillator and
got him stable, and transported him to the hospital.  There he had another
event, more CPR and another defibrillator, but they were unsuccessful and
he died.

He is still in Canada, there?s a lot of red tape when an American dies
abroad, Teri doesn?t know yet when his body will come home.  The funeral
home has been a big help.

His funeral will be in Eden Prarie, at Pax Christi Catholic Church, the
date is still TBD.

Teri?s email is teri at karels.net
Home: 952-949-3438
Cell: 952-240-6171

Her address is 14991 Williamsburg Court, Eden Prarie, MN 55347-1523

On Tue, Jun 4, 2024 at 3:18?PM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Mike Karels died on Sunday.  I don?t have any details other than:
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/BSDCan/permalink/10159552565206372/
> https://www.gearty-delmore.com/obituaries/michael-mike-karels
>
> Mike was deeply involved in the Berkeley BSD releases as I recall, after he
> inherited the TCP/IP implementation for Unix from Bill Joy (am I
> remembering that correctly?).
>
> RIP
> v
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: smime.p7s
Type: application/pkcs7-signature
Size: 4006 bytes
Desc: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
URL: <http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20240604/f3a804a8/attachment.p7s>

From geoff at iconia.com  Wed Jun  5 10:02:41 2024
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 10:02:41 -0700
Subject: [ih] "#Internet shutdowns intended to prevent cheating on national
 exams continue in #Iraq and #Syria.
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrgVc1Fb_FjPzUBcmFxLGGmiNSYwtC6dnMKupDcuWkUEcQ@mail.gmail.com>

In Iraq, shutdowns began May 21 and will occur through July 2. In Syria,
shutdowns began May 26 and will occur through June 13...
??https://x.com/CloudflareRadar/status/1798337167124775034

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From dbelson at gmail.com  Wed Jun  5 10:14:06 2024
From: dbelson at gmail.com (David Belson)
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2024 10:14:06 -0700
Subject: [ih] "#Internet shutdowns intended to prevent cheating on
 national exams continue in #Iraq and #Syria.
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrgVc1Fb_FjPzUBcmFxLGGmiNSYwtC6dnMKupDcuWkUEcQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgVc1Fb_FjPzUBcmFxLGGmiNSYwtC6dnMKupDcuWkUEcQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAL3+C_7jW_Dy1uDqjBaAkUOzdjC5MSNDS5KDoju53UNU-K2mtQ@mail.gmail.com>

 ? I?m the author of that Tweet ? thanks for sharing it.

Iraq and Syria have been shutting down the Internet an an attempt to
prevent cheating on exams for the last several years ? Syria (2021
<https://blog.cloudflare.com/syria-exam-related-internet-shutdowns>, 2022
<https://blog.cloudflare.com/syria-sudan-algeria-exam-internet-shutdown>,
2023 <https://blog.cloudflare.com/q2-2023-internet-disruption-summary>) and
Iraq (2022
<https://blog.cloudflare.com/syria-sudan-algeria-exam-internet-shutdown>,
2023 <https://blog.cloudflare.com/exam-internet-shutdowns-iraq-algeria>) ?
and other countries do it as well, including India, Mauritania, Uzbekistan,
and Algeria. It is, to be sure, a heavy-handed approach to solving the
problem.

?David

On Jun 5, 2024 at 1:02:41?PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> In Iraq, shutdowns began May 21 and will occur through July 2. In Syria,
> shutdowns began May 26 and will occur through June 13...
> ??https://x.com/CloudflareRadar/status/1798337167124775034
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From geoff at iconia.com  Thu Jun  6 07:38:52 2024
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2024 07:38:52 -0700
Subject: [ih] A large team of tech nostalgia enthusiasts have made a PiDP-10,
 a replica of the PDP-10 mainframe computer first launched by the Digital
 Equipment Corporation in 1966
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrjVb7bh_cXXiSebd2Rr3N1hW=DZaNnGeffTwb6NNn+XDQ@mail.gmail.com>

EXCERPT:

... Why? Why go to all this trouble? First, there?s the historical
importance. Built from 1959 to the early 1970s, the PDP machines were
groundbreaking. Not only were they much cheaper than the giant mainframes
used by the military and large corporations, they were designed as
multipurpose, fully interactive machines. You didn?t have to produce
programs on punch cards which were then handed to the IT department, who
would run them through the computer, which provided a print-out, which
you?d debug maybe a day later. With the PDPs, you could type directly into
the computer and test the results immediately.

These factors led to an extraordinary burst of experimentation. Most modern
programming languages, including C, began on DEC machines; a PDP-10 was the
centre of the MIT AI Lab, the room in which the term artificial
intelligence was invented. ?PDP-10 computers dominated Arpanet, which was
the forerunner of Internet,? says Lars Brinkhoff. ?Internet protocols were
prototyped on PDP-10s, PDP-11s and other computers. The GNU project was
inspired by the free sharing of software and information on the PDP-10.
Stephen Hawking?s artificial voice came from a DECtalk device, which came
from Dennis Klatt?s voice-synthesis research begun on a PDP-9.?

PDPs were installed in university labs around the world, where they were
embraced by an emerging generation of engineers, scientists and coders ?
the original computer hackers. Steve Wozniak got started with coding on a
PDP-8, a smaller, cheaper machine which sold in its thousands to hobbyists
? its operating system, OS/8, was the forefather of MS-DOS. Teenage
schoolkids Bill Gates and Paul Allen used to sneak into the University of
Washington to program PCP-10s. And it was on PDP computers that MIT student
Steve Russell and a group of friends designed the shoot-?em-up, SpaceWar!,
one of the first-ever video games to run on a computer...

[...]
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jun/06/reinventing-the-pdp-10

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Thu Jun  6 21:24:55 2024
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Thu, 6 Jun 2024 23:24:55 -0500
Subject: [ih] A large team of tech nostalgia enthusiasts have made a
 PiDP-10,
 a replica of the PDP-10 mainframe computer first launched by the Digital
 Equipment Corporation in 1966
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrjVb7bh_cXXiSebd2Rr3N1hW=DZaNnGeffTwb6NNn+XDQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjVb7bh_cXXiSebd2Rr3N1hW=DZaNnGeffTwb6NNn+XDQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F4097DF9-AE41-44D1-B879-35527BB89B52@gmail.com>


It?s a very cool replica, finished to put it together few weeks ago. I also have the PiDP-11 and PiDP-8 from Oscar.

If you are into retro-computing totally worth the $$

Cheers
-Jorge

> On Jun 6, 2024, at 09:39, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> ?EXCERPT:
> 
> ... Why? Why go to all this trouble? First, there?s the historical
> importance. Built from 1959 to the early 1970s, the PDP machines were
> groundbreaking. Not only were they much cheaper than the giant mainframes
> used by the military and large corporations, they were designed as
> multipurpose, fully interactive machines. You didn?t have to produce
> programs on punch cards which were then handed to the IT department, who
> would run them through the computer, which provided a print-out, which
> you?d debug maybe a day later. With the PDPs, you could type directly into
> the computer and test the results immediately.
> 
> These factors led to an extraordinary burst of experimentation. Most modern
> programming languages, including C, began on DEC machines; a PDP-10 was the
> centre of the MIT AI Lab, the room in which the term artificial
> intelligence was invented. ?PDP-10 computers dominated Arpanet, which was
> the forerunner of Internet,? says Lars Brinkhoff. ?Internet protocols were
> prototyped on PDP-10s, PDP-11s and other computers. The GNU project was
> inspired by the free sharing of software and information on the PDP-10.
> Stephen Hawking?s artificial voice came from a DECtalk device, which came
> from Dennis Klatt?s voice-synthesis research begun on a PDP-9.?
> 
> PDPs were installed in university labs around the world, where they were
> embraced by an emerging generation of engineers, scientists and coders ?
> the original computer hackers. Steve Wozniak got started with coding on a
> PDP-8, a smaller, cheaper machine which sold in its thousands to hobbyists
> ? its operating system, OS/8, was the forefather of MS-DOS. Teenage
> schoolkids Bill Gates and Paul Allen used to sneak into the University of
> Washington to program PCP-10s. And it was on PDP computers that MIT student
> Steve Russell and a group of friends designed the shoot-?em-up, SpaceWar!,
> one of the first-ever video games to run on a computer...
> 
> [...]
> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jun/06/reinventing-the-pdp-10
> 
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From jericho at attrition.org  Thu Jun  6 23:14:43 2024
From: jericho at attrition.org (Jared E. Richo)
Date: Fri, 7 Jun 2024 00:14:43 -0600
Subject: [ih] A large team of tech nostalgia enthusiasts have made a
 PiDP-10,
 a replica of the PDP-10 mainframe computer first launched by the Digital
 Equipment Corporation in 1966
In-Reply-To: <F4097DF9-AE41-44D1-B879-35527BB89B52@gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjVb7bh_cXXiSebd2Rr3N1hW=DZaNnGeffTwb6NNn+XDQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <F4097DF9-AE41-44D1-B879-35527BB89B52@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <369796d3-56e5-4fcb-87b9-3bbeebe6c90e@attrition.org>


Jorge,

If you, or anyone else, in this effort or similar produces something 
new, related to actual vulnerabilities in Multics regardless of platform 
or age, I will pay a bounty!

I am familiar with Karger & Schell's work, the Repaired Security Bugs in 
Multics list, etc. I like to think I am familiar with any cited works 
along these lines, but will happily review anything provided.

That said, I am after new vulnerabilities in old operating systems. If 
you are using new/modern tools to find unpublished vulns in old systems, 
that is exactly what I am after.

If you aren't interested in the money, I will be more than happy to 
donate it to a charity of your choice. If you don't want it, it will 
incentivize me to donate more to your cause.

I am a vulnerability historian, by chosen title (you can Google my prior 
work, presenting on vulns starting in 1902). I don't care how I find new 
vulnerabilities (to me), and I don't care how old they sat in code. In 
fact, it is a bonus if they sat there longer to help prove that 
vulnerabilities -can- sit there for incredible amounts of time.

I love reading this list and reading about computer history in general. 
So any opportunity to find out a little hidden nugget of information in 
our shared realm is fascinating to me. =)

Thanks,

.b


On 6/6/2024 10:24 PM, Jorge Amodio via Internet-history wrote:
> 
> It?s a very cool replica, finished to put it together few weeks ago. I also have the PiDP-11 and PiDP-8 from Oscar.
> 
> If you are into retro-computing totally worth the $$
> 
> Cheers
> -Jorge
> 
>> On Jun 6, 2024, at 09:39, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> ?EXCERPT:
>>
>> ... Why? Why go to all this trouble? First, there?s the historical
>> importance. Built from 1959 to the early 1970s, the PDP machines were
>> groundbreaking. Not only were they much cheaper than the giant mainframes
>> used by the military and large corporations, they were designed as
>> multipurpose, fully interactive machines. You didn?t have to produce
>> programs on punch cards which were then handed to the IT department, who
>> would run them through the computer, which provided a print-out, which
>> you?d debug maybe a day later. With the PDPs, you could type directly into
>> the computer and test the results immediately.
>>
>> These factors led to an extraordinary burst of experimentation. Most modern
>> programming languages, including C, began on DEC machines; a PDP-10 was the
>> centre of the MIT AI Lab, the room in which the term artificial
>> intelligence was invented. ?PDP-10 computers dominated Arpanet, which was
>> the forerunner of Internet,? says Lars Brinkhoff. ?Internet protocols were
>> prototyped on PDP-10s, PDP-11s and other computers. The GNU project was
>> inspired by the free sharing of software and information on the PDP-10.
>> Stephen Hawking?s artificial voice came from a DECtalk device, which came
>> from Dennis Klatt?s voice-synthesis research begun on a PDP-9.?
>>
>> PDPs were installed in university labs around the world, where they were
>> embraced by an emerging generation of engineers, scientists and coders ?
>> the original computer hackers. Steve Wozniak got started with coding on a
>> PDP-8, a smaller, cheaper machine which sold in its thousands to hobbyists
>> ? its operating system, OS/8, was the forefather of MS-DOS. Teenage
>> schoolkids Bill Gates and Paul Allen used to sneak into the University of
>> Washington to program PCP-10s. And it was on PDP computers that MIT student
>> Steve Russell and a group of friends designed the shoot-?em-up, SpaceWar!,
>> one of the first-ever video games to run on a computer...
>>
>> [...]
>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/article/2024/jun/06/reinventing-the-pdp-10
>>
>> --
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From frantisek.borsik at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 05:16:37 2024
From: frantisek.borsik at gmail.com (Frantisek Borsik)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:16:37 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
Message-ID: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>

It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw

All the best,

Frank

Frantisek (Frank) Borsik



https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik

Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714

iMessage, mobile: +420775230885

Skype: casioa5302ca

frantisek.borsik at gmail.com


From julf at julf.com  Thu Jun 13 05:23:25 2024
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 14:23:25 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>

Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased
towards the academic networks (understandable given
the event and the panelists).

	Julf

On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Frank
> 
> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> 
> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> 
> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> 
> Skype: casioa5302ca
> 
> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com


From ocl at gih.com  Thu Jun 13 07:11:29 2024
From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?=)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 2024 16:11:29 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
Message-ID: <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>

Thanks for sharing.

In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and 
EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I 
"lived").
The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
Kindest regards,

Olivier

On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased
> towards the academic networks (understandable given
> the event and the panelists).
>
> ????Julf
>
> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>
>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Thu Jun 13 13:45:08 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 08:45:08 +1200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
Message-ID: <7acfea26-c6e0-4128-aeee-92ea40f4064f@gmail.com>

On 14-Jun-24 02:11, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote:
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?

Yes.

    Brian

> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I
> "lived").
> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> Kindest regards,
> 
> Olivier
> 
> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased
>> towards the academic networks (understandable given
>> the event and the panelists).
>>
>>  ????Julf
>>
>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>
>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>
>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>
>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>
>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com

From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Thu Jun 13 18:54:05 2024
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 01:54:05 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <1316649246.5725979.1718318295390@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <7acfea26-c6e0-4128-aeee-92ea40f4064f@gmail.com>
 <1316649246.5725979.1718318295390@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1968476272.5780512.1718330045921@mail.yahoo.com>

 Trying again.? I am having trouble with the mailing list.
    On Thursday, June 13, 2024 at 12:38:15 PM HST, Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
  
Just a FYI.?
U.S. military,? USAREUR,? had a small testbed for the Internet in Germany (Cisco AGS routers) . My memory is foggy (never have? been great in remembering things by dates) but I am beginning to think the installation happened in 1987 rather than 1986 (I think past email I sent mentioned 1986). I supported the installation. I also had to prepare and give a class so they didn't have to rely on contractors to manage it.?
I haven't had a chance to listen to what was posted yet... I am on vacation in Hawaii. The plane is using Starlink for Internet access.
barbara
  

From Bovio at aol.com  Fri Jun 14 08:41:54 2024
From: Bovio at aol.com (Daniele Bovio)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 17:41:54 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
Message-ID: <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>

Julf,
In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide network services amongst different institutions/corporations within countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate. 

Regards

Daniele Bovio

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]

Thanks for sharing.

In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I "lived").
The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest regards,

Olivier

On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic 
> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>
>     Julf
>
> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Frank
>>
>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>
>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>
>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>
>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>
>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
--
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From vint at google.com  Fri Jun 14 08:48:27 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 11:48:27 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>

that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
making the case.
v


On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Julf,
> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice
> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European
> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down
> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one
> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>
> Regards
>
> Daniele Bovio
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of
> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
> Greece]
>
> Thanks for sharing.
>
> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I
> "lived").
> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest
> regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> > Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
> > networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >
> >     Julf
> >
> > On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
> >>
> >> All the best,
> >>
> >> Frank
> >>
> >> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >>
> >> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>
> >> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>
> >> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>
> >> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice


From jack at 3kitty.org  Fri Jun 14 09:30:38 2024
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 09:30:38 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>

The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking 
outside of academia.? At the time, I was involved in deploying and 
operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ 
countries.? In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could 
literally (almost) see each other across a river.?? But they were in two 
different countries.? Due to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far 
less expensive to lease a trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New 
York than it was to lease a circuit across that river between the two 
countries.

So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of 
miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.?? CEPT may 
have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic 
networking, but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.?? I 
don't know when those rules changed.

Jack Haverty

On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
> making the case.
> v
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> Julf,
>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice
>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European
>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down
>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one
>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Daniele Bovio
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of
>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
>> Greece]
>>
>> Thanks for sharing.
>>
>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I
>> "lived").
>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest
>> regards,
>>
>> Olivier
>>
>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>
>>>      Julf
>>>
>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Frank
>>>>
>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>>
>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>
>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>
>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>
>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 665 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20240614/8ad91588/attachment.asc>

From jeanjour at comcast.net  Fri Jun 14 11:44:37 2024
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 14:44:37 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
Message-ID: <4A179B39-1342-4D51-8360-B95821B38D53@comcast.net>

That was the case in the 1970s as well, but we never let a little thing laws get in the way.

That is how we were the largest user of the 360/95 at the Rutherford Higher Energy Lab in Cambridge UK. Physicists were moving files from CERN to Rutherford to Illinois (UIUC) and then tapes were taken up to Argonne and a little later Batavia (FermiLab).

Take care,
John 


> On Jun 14, 2024, at 11:41, Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Julf,
> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide network services amongst different institutions/corporations within countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate. 
> 
> Regards
> 
> Daniele Bovio
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]
> 
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I "lived").
> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest regards,
> 
> Olivier
> 
> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic 
>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>> 
>>    Julf
>> 
>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>> 
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> 
>>> Frank
>>> 
>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>> 
>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>> 
>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>> 
>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>> 
>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From jeanjour at comcast.net  Fri Jun 14 11:46:27 2024
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 14:46:27 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>

If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.

> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.  In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a circuit across that river between the two countries.
> 
> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking, but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when those rules changed.
> 
> Jack Haverty
> 
> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>> making the case.
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> Julf,
>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice
>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European
>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down
>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one
>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>> 
>>> Daniele Bovio
>>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of
>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
>>> Greece]
>>> 
>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>> 
>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I
>>> "lived").
>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest
>>> regards,
>>> 
>>> Olivier
>>> 
>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>> 
>>>>     Julf
>>>> 
>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>>> 
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Frank
>>>>> 
>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>>> 
>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>> 
>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>> 
>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>> 
>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From vint at google.com  Fri Jun 14 11:53:53 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 14:53:53 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>

or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"

v


On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>
> > On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
> circuit across that river between the two countries.
> >
> > So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
> those rules changed.
> >
> > Jack Haverty
> >
> > On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
> >> making the case.
> >> v
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Julf,
> >>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
> >>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
> >>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
> voice
> >>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
> >>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
> >>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
> European
> >>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
> down
> >>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
> >>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
> one
> >>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
> >>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>
> >>> Daniele Bovio
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> >>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
> of
> >>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
> Athens,
> >>> Greece]
> >>>
> >>> Thanks for sharing.
> >>>
> >>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
> >>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> >>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
> I
> >>> "lived").
> >>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> Kindest
> >>> regards,
> >>>
> >>> Olivier
> >>>
> >>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
> >>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >>>>
> >>>>     Julf
> >>>>
> >>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
> >>>>>
> >>>>> All the best,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frank
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>>>>
> >>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>
> >>
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice


From jeanjour at comcast.net  Fri Jun 14 12:00:55 2024
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 15:00:55 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3FAD296C-130A-4ACA-841D-4C3AB09D7E0C@comcast.net>

Perhaps, but it was probably earlier than that when there were only the two centers one on the East Coast and one on the West Coast.

> On Jun 14, 2024, at 14:53, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
> 
> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>> 
>> > On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.  In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a circuit across that river between the two countries.
>> > 
>> > So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking, but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when those rules changed.
>> > 
>> > Jack Haverty
>> > 
>> > On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> >> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>> >> making the case.
>> >> v
>> >> 
>> >> 
>> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> >> 
>> >>> Julf,
>> >>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>> >>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>> >>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice
>> >>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>> >>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>> >>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European
>> >>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down
>> >>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>> >>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one
>> >>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>> >>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>> >>> 
>> >>> Regards
>> >>> 
>> >>> Daniele Bovio
>> >>> 
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org>]
>> >>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>> >>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com <mailto:julf at julf.com>>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> >>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of
>> >>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
>> >>> Greece]
>> >>> 
>> >>> Thanks for sharing.
>> >>> 
>> >>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>> >>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>> >>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I
>> >>> "lived").
>> >>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest
>> >>> regards,
>> >>> 
>> >>> Olivier
>> >>> 
>> >>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>> >>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>> >>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>> >>>> 
>> >>>>     Julf
>> >>>> 
>> >>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>> >>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> All the best,
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> Frank
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <tel:+421%20919%20416%20714> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <tel:+420%20775%20230%20885> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> >>>>> 
>> >>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com <mailto:frantisek.borsik at gmail.com>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Internet-history mailing list
>> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> >>> 
>> >>> --
>> >>> Internet-history mailing list
>> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> >>> 
>> >> 
>> > 
>> > -- 
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> 
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> 
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
> 
> 
> until further notice
> 
> 
> 



From galmes at tamu.edu  Fri Jun 14 12:35:42 2024
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 15:35:42 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c8d8150f-90af-472e-9dde-330007f75063@tamu.edu>

StarTap?
	-- Guy

On 6/14/24 2:53 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>>
>> > On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>> >
>> > So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>> those rules changed.
>> >
>> > Jack Haverty
>> >
>> > On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> >> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>> >> making the case.
>> >> v
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> Julf,
>> >>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>> >>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>> >>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
>> voice
>> >>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>> >>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>> >>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>> European
>> >>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
>> down
>> >>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>> >>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>> one
>> >>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>> >>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>> >>>
>> >>> Regards
>> >>>
>> >>> Daniele Bovio
>> >>>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>> >>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>> >>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> >>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
>> of
>> >>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>> Athens,
>> >>> Greece]
>> >>>
>> >>> Thanks for sharing.
>> >>>
>> >>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>> >>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>> >>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
>> I
>> >>> "lived").
>> >>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>> Kindest
>> >>> regards,
>> >>>
>> >>> Olivier
>> >>>
>> >>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>> >>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>> >>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>> >>>>
>> >>>>     Julf
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>> >>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> All the best,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Frank
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>> >>> --
>> >>> Internet-history mailing list
>> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> Internet-history mailing list
>> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> >>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> > --
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$>
>>
> 
> 
> -- 
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
> 
> 
> until further notice
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$>
> 


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 13:58:39 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 08:58:39 +1200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>

For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took place on deregulated US soil.

There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a trade secret ;-).

At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>>
>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>
>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>> those rules changed.
>>>
>>> Jack Haverty
>>>
>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>>>> making the case.
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Julf,
>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
>> voice
>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>> European
>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
>> down
>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>> one
>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
>> of
>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>> Athens,
>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>
>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
>> I
>>>>> "lived").
>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>> Kindest
>>>>> regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>
>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      Julf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
> 
> 

From dhc at dcrocker.net  Fri Jun 14 17:57:11 2024
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 17:57:11 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <22e61ea8-5dea-429f-ba4b-43990e96a6ea@dcrocker.net>

On 6/14/2024 9:30 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>
> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of 
> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back. 


Methinks there is a good article or possibly novella worth writing that 
recounts the many circumventions that were accomplished during those 
days, across? the many jurisdictions.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social



From galmes at tamu.edu  Fri Jun 14 15:40:59 2024
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 18:40:59 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>

   Three interesting stories.
   A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s, there 
was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still 
exists as idt.net).  It had a switching facility in New Jersey.  Its 
customers were typically from Europe.  An example given customer, say 
living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey phone 
number.  If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would 
call that NJ phone number.  The switch at IDT would "answer" the call 
and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.  In the example 
given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was 
actually trying to get to.  The switch would then hang up, place a 
telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas, place a 
second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and splice the 
two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now talking to the 
target Dallas person.  The cost charged to the customer included the 
domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the international 
call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.  The value all hinged on 
the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper than 
the call from Germany to the US.
   The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus with two 
international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the 
overpricing by European PTTs.  One can imagine how unhappy the PTTs were.
   By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup played a 
key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their 
prices for international calls.  Again, by some tellings of the story, 
this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.

   If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the 
innocent word "between".  We forget how huge the difference was between 
the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.

   At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone companies 
were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.

   Regards,
	-- Guy

On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took place on deregulated US soil.
> 
> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a trade secret ;-).
> 
> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
> 
> Regards
>      Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
>> 
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>>>
>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>>
>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>>> those rules changed.
>>>>
>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>
>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>>>>> making the case.
>>>>> v
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Julf,
>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
>>> voice
>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>>> European
>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
>>> down
>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>>> one
>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
>>> of
>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>>> Athens,
>>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
>>> I
>>>>>> "lived").
>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>>> Kindest
>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      Julf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>
>> 
>> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> 


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 16:05:47 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 11:05:47 +1200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>

Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
than Madrid-Geneva overland.

>  We forget how huge the difference was between 
> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.

Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US researchers
about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was that
research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN should
pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager in the
US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.

That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.

     Brian

On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
>     Three interesting stories.
>     A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s, there
> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
> exists as idt.net).  It had a switching facility in New Jersey.  Its
> customers were typically from Europe.  An example given customer, say
> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey phone
> number.  If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
> call that NJ phone number.  The switch at IDT would "answer" the call
> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.  In the example
> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
> actually trying to get to.  The switch would then hang up, place a
> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas, place a
> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and splice the
> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now talking to the
> target Dallas person.  The cost charged to the customer included the
> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the international
> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.  The value all hinged on
> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper than
> the call from Germany to the US.
>     The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus with two
> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
> overpricing by European PTTs.  One can imagine how unhappy the PTTs were.
>     By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup played a
> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
> prices for international calls.  Again, by some tellings of the story,
> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
> 
>     If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
> innocent word "between".  We forget how huge the difference was between
> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> 
>     At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone companies
> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
> 
>     Regards,
> 	-- Guy
> 
> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took place on deregulated US soil.
>>
>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a trade secret ;-).
>>
>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
>>
>> Regards
>>       Brian Carpenter
>>
>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>>>>
>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>>>
>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>>>> those rules changed.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>>>>>> making the case.
>>>>>> v
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julf,
>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
>>>> voice
>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>>>> European
>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
>>>> down
>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>>>> one
>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
>>>> of
>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>>>> Athens,
>>>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
>>>> I
>>>>>>> "lived").
>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>>>> Kindest
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>       Julf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>

From vint at google.com  Fri Jun 14 16:16:30 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 19:16:30 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <c8d8150f-90af-472e-9dde-330007f75063@tamu.edu>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <c8d8150f-90af-472e-9dde-330007f75063@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggf4tQcWjUOnFEB_g=v2hKO0E-jzWecAypTBhzpgnSvRhw@mail.gmail.com>

Seems like some such

V

On Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 15:35 Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:

> StarTap?
>         -- Guy
>
> On 6/14/24 2:53 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> >> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
> >> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern
> Virginia.
> >>
> >> > On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
> >> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
> >> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
> >> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost)
> see
> >> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.
> Due
> >> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
> >> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
> >> circuit across that river between the two countries.
> >> >
> >> > So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
> >> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
> >> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
> networking,
> >> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
> >> those rules changed.
> >> >
> >> > Jack Haverty
> >> >
> >> > On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
> >> >> making the case.
> >> >> v
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
> >> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> Julf,
> >> >>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to
> provide
> >> >>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
> >> >>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly
> of
> >> voice
> >> >>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst
> an
> >> >>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As
> a
> >> >>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
> >> European
> >> >>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
> operations
> >> down
> >> >>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of
> the
> >> >>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
> >> one
> >> >>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and
> eventually
> >> >>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Regards
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Daniele Bovio
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
> >> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> >> >>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >> >>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the
> Birth
> >> of
> >> >>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
> >> Athens,
> >> >>> Greece]
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Thanks for sharing.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start
> with?
> >> >>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> >> >>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET
> (where
> >> I
> >> >>> "lived").
> >> >>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> >> Kindest
> >> >>> regards,
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Olivier
> >> >>>
> >> >>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the
> academic
> >> >>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>>     Julf
> >> >>>>
> >> >>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >> >>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
> >
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> All the best,
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Frank
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
> >
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >> >>>>>
> >> >>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > Internet-history mailing list
> >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >
> >>
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> > Vint Cerf
> > Google, LLC
> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> > Reston, VA 20190
> > +1 (571) 213 1346
> >
> >
> > until further notice
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >
> >
>


From matt.mathis at gmail.com  Fri Jun 14 16:19:09 2024
From: matt.mathis at gmail.com (Matt Mathis)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 16:19:09 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <22e61ea8-5dea-429f-ba4b-43990e96a6ea@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <22e61ea8-5dea-429f-ba4b-43990e96a6ea@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CA+s1KQHvFd5OVBRKLEkZbXbQdVtRPuMPCdLu_kwqP2Tp0qQQpQ@mail.gmail.com>

I have a fun little  story about the EU conversion to IP that I heard at
IETF 26, April of 1993.  I think it was Milo speaking about how
US agencies were trying to coax their European counterparts to switch.  To
put this in perspective, this was before "On the Internet nobody knows
you're a dog".

Internet traffic growth everywhere was exponential, I think about 2x per
year at that time.   The US agencies and ISPs had plots to show the
Internet's  progress.  So did the European PPTs.    Pisst: all of the
exponential growth on  the PPTs was actually tunneled IP.... and that
insight was what broke the logjam: realizing that the killer app on their
own networks was actually the Internet and not any native protocols.

I have a hunch that conversation could be re-discovered and properly
archived.  It would be good if somebody closer to the story could provide
more details.

Thanks,
--MM--
Evil is defined by mortals who think they know "The Truth" and use force to
apply it to others.
-------------------------------------------
Matt Mathis  (Email is best)
Home & mobile: 412-654-7529 please leave a message if you must call.



On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:57?PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> On 6/14/2024 9:30 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> >
> > So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
> > miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.
>
>
> Methinks there is a good article or possibly novella worth writing that
> recounts the many circumventions that were accomplished during those
> days, across  the many jurisdictions.
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From galmes at tamu.edu  Fri Jun 14 16:20:48 2024
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 19:20:48 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>

Brian,
   Exactly.  Given IBM's transition from giant to non-giant over the 
last few decades, we should never forget their contributions, including 
that wonderful T1 line from Cornell to CERN.

   The odd IDT hack was all about international phone calls, but similar 
things played out with leased lines.  As you point out, not only were 
they expensive, bud, in the early days, "illegal".
   Then there's the whole "half-circuit" concept.

   In an odd sense, the NSFnet was able to play a little bit of the role 
of IDT.  It was possible for (I believe) NSFnet and, later, Internet2 to 
connect with early Internet components in various countries and offer 
"free transit".  While not super-expensive and certainly 
well-intentioned, it did have definite advantages for the US by 
maintaining a kind of US-centrism of the international Internet topology 
for several years.
   The historical consequences of this were not merely economic.  I now 
appreciate (even if I don't fully understand it) how it combined with 
the relative openness of US government attitudes toward the "regulation" 
of the Internet to extend that openness to the international Internet, 
with mostly good and mostly enduring consequences.

	-- Guy

On 6/14/24 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
> disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
> pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
> than Madrid-Geneva overland.
> 
>>  We forget how huge the difference was between 
>> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> 
> Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US researchers
> about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was that
> research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN should
> pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager in the
> US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.
> 
> That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
> 1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
> anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
> asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.
> 
>       Brian
> 
> On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
>>     Three interesting stories.
>>     A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s, there
>> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
>> exists as idt.net).  It had a switching facility in New Jersey.  Its
>> customers were typically from Europe.  An example given customer, say
>> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey phone
>> number.  If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
>> call that NJ phone number.  The switch at IDT would "answer" the call
>> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.  In the example
>> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
>> actually trying to get to.  The switch would then hang up, place a
>> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas, place a
>> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and splice the
>> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now talking to the
>> target Dallas person.  The cost charged to the customer included the
>> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the international
>> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.  The value all hinged on
>> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper than
>> the call from Germany to the US.
>>     The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus with two
>> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
>> overpricing by European PTTs.  One can imagine how unhappy the PTTs were.
>>     By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup played a
>> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
>> prices for international calls.  Again, by some tellings of the story,
>> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
>> 
>>     If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
>> innocent word "between".  We forget how huge the difference was between
>> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
>> 
>>     At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone companies
>> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
>> 
>>     Regards,
>> 	-- Guy
>> 
>> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took place on deregulated US soil.
>>>
>>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a trade secret ;-).
>>>
>>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>       Brian Carpenter
>>>
>>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
>>>>
>>>> v
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern Virginia.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost) see
>>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.  Due
>>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic networking,
>>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>>>>> those rules changed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>>>>>>> making the case.
>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Julf,
>>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
>>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of
>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
>>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
>>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>>>>> European
>>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations
>>>>> down
>>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
>>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>>>>> one
>>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
>>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>>>>> Athens,
>>>>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where
>>>>> I
>>>>>>>> "lived").
>>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>>>>> Kindest
>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>       Julf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>All the best,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>--
>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>> >>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>
>>>>>>--
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$> >>>> >>> >>> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>-- 
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
>>>
> 


From vint at google.com  Fri Jun 14 16:54:48 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 19:54:48 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>

The NSF International Connections program run by Steve Goldstein for a
time, was a key facilitator of linking national research and education
networks to the NSFNET backbone and, through the Internet architecture, to
each other. Hard to overstate how important that program was.

v


On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 7:20?PM Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:

> Brian,
>    Exactly.  Given IBM's transition from giant to non-giant over the
> last few decades, we should never forget their contributions, including
> that wonderful T1 line from Cornell to CERN.
>
>    The odd IDT hack was all about international phone calls, but similar
> things played out with leased lines.  As you point out, not only were
> they expensive, bud, in the early days, "illegal".
>    Then there's the whole "half-circuit" concept.
>
>    In an odd sense, the NSFnet was able to play a little bit of the role
> of IDT.  It was possible for (I believe) NSFnet and, later, Internet2 to
> connect with early Internet components in various countries and offer
> "free transit".  While not super-expensive and certainly
> well-intentioned, it did have definite advantages for the US by
> maintaining a kind of US-centrism of the international Internet topology
> for several years.
>    The historical consequences of this were not merely economic.  I now
> appreciate (even if I don't fully understand it) how it combined with
> the relative openness of US government attitudes toward the "regulation"
> of the Internet to extend that openness to the international Internet,
> with mostly good and mostly enduring consequences.
>
>         -- Guy
>
> On 6/14/24 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> > Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
> > disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
> > pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
> > than Madrid-Geneva overland.
> >
> >>  We forget how huge the difference was between
> >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> >
> > Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US researchers
> > about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was that
> > research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN should
> > pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager in the
> > US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.
> >
> > That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
> > 1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
> > anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
> > asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.
> >
> >       Brian
> >
> > On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
> >>     Three interesting stories.
> >>     A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s, there
> >> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
> >> exists as idt.net).  It had a switching facility in New Jersey.  Its
> >> customers were typically from Europe.  An example given customer, say
> >> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey phone
> >> number.  If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
> >> call that NJ phone number.  The switch at IDT would "answer" the call
> >> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.  In the example
> >> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
> >> actually trying to get to.  The switch would then hang up, place a
> >> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas, place a
> >> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and splice the
> >> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now talking to the
> >> target Dallas person.  The cost charged to the customer included the
> >> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the international
> >> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.  The value all hinged on
> >> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper than
> >> the call from Germany to the US.
> >>     The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus with two
> >> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
> >> overpricing by European PTTs.  One can imagine how unhappy the PTTs
> were.
> >>     By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup played
> a
> >> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
> >> prices for international calls.  Again, by some tellings of the story,
> >> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
> >>
> >>     If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
> >> innocent word "between".  We forget how huge the difference was between
> >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
> >>
> >>     At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone companies
> >> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
> >>
> >>     Regards,
> >>      -- Guy
> >>
> >> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva and
> Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual switching took
> place on deregulated US soil.
> >>>
> >>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies based in
> Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to the Swiss PTT and
> out the back door into Germany. What happened inside the building was a
> trade secret ;-).
> >>>
> >>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about 1986,
> Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General Herwig Schopper
> to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT. At that time the Swiss
> allowed "value-added networks" which meant that the data had to be
> stationary for a while (presumably to have some value added to it). I
> remember asking how long a packet had to remain inside a router to count as
> value-added. Anyway we were a treaty organisation so normal rules didn't
> apply (and we were the biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no
> idea how to respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
> >>>
> >>> Regards
> >>>       Brian Carpenter
> >>>
> >>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> >>>>
> >>>> v
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest
> and
> >>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern
> Virginia.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted
> networking
> >>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
> >>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+
> countries.
> >>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally
> (almost) see
> >>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different
> countries.  Due
> >>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to
> lease a
> >>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to
> lease a
> >>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
> >>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT
> may
> >>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
> networking,
> >>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know
> when
> >>>>> those rules changed.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Jack Haverty
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN
> for
> >>>>>>> making the case.
> >>>>>>> v
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via
> Internet-history <
> >>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Julf,
> >>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to
> provide
> >>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations
> within
> >>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the
> monopoly of
> >>>>> voice
> >>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits
> amongst an
> >>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services.
> As a
> >>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
> >>>>> European
> >>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
> operations
> >>>>> down
> >>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose
> of the
> >>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other,
> i.e.
> >>>>> one
> >>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and
> eventually
> >>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to
> operate.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
> >>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the
> Birth
> >>>>> of
> >>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
> >>>>> Athens,
> >>>>>>>> Greece]
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start
> with?
> >>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> >>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET
> (where
> >>>>> I
> >>>>>>>> "lived").
> >>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> >>>>> Kindest
> >>>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Olivier
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the
> academic
> >>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>       Julf
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>
> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>All the best,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>
> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> <+421%20919%20416%20714> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> >>>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>--
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>--
> >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> >>>> >>>>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>--
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> >>>> >>> >>> >>  <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$
> >
> >>>
> >
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice


From galmes at tamu.edu  Fri Jun 14 18:58:15 2024
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2024 21:58:15 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <61133eb7-87d6-4483-8cda-d98e1ee34186@tamu.edu>

   Exactly,
	-- Guy

On 6/14/24 7:54 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> The NSF International Connections program run by Steve Goldstein for a 
> time, was a key facilitator of linking national research and education 
> networks to the NSFNET backbone and, through the Internet architecture, 
> to each other. Hard to overstate how important that program was.
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 7:20?PM Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu 
> <mailto:galmes at tamu.edu>> wrote:
> 
>     Brian,
>      ? ?Exactly.? Given IBM's transition from giant to non-giant over the
>     last few decades, we should never forget their contributions, including
>     that wonderful T1 line from Cornell to CERN.
> 
>      ? ?The odd IDT hack was all about international phone calls, but
>     similar
>     things played out with leased lines.? As you point out, not only were
>     they expensive, bud, in the early days, "illegal".
>      ? ?Then there's the whole "half-circuit" concept.
> 
>      ? ?In an odd sense, the NSFnet was able to play a little bit of the
>     role
>     of IDT.? It was possible for (I believe) NSFnet and, later,
>     Internet2 to
>     connect with early Internet components in various countries and offer
>     "free transit".? While not super-expensive and certainly
>     well-intentioned, it did have definite advantages for the US by
>     maintaining a kind of US-centrism of the international Internet
>     topology
>     for several years.
>      ? ?The historical consequences of this were not merely economic.? I
>     now
>     appreciate (even if I don't fully understand it) how it combined with
>     the relative openness of US government attitudes toward the
>     "regulation"
>     of the Internet to extend that openness to the international Internet,
>     with mostly good and mostly enduring consequences.
> 
>      ? ? ? ? -- Guy
> 
>     On 6/14/24 7:05 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>      > Thanks, Guy. The reason Madrid sticks in my mind is because the price
>      > disparity was even greater, so even allowing for the asymmetric
>      > pricing, Madrid-US/US-Geneva across the ocean was a lot cheaper
>      > than Madrid-Geneva overland.
>      >
>      >>? We forget how huge the difference was between
>      >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
>      >
>      > Which led to some interesting discussions between CERN and US
>     researchers
>      > about how to fund transatlantic leased lines. The CERN policy was
>     that
>      > research teams needing connectivity to their experiments at CERN
>     should
>      > pay 100% of the costs - which was fine until the budget manager
>     in the
>      > US saw the asymmetry in the pricing.
>      >
>      > That is actually why IBM's sponsorship of the Cornell-CERN T1 link in
>      > 1990 was so important (which I'm sure Guy will remember as well as
>      > anybody). It meant that we didn't have to worry about cost or the
>      > asymmetric pricing until the user community was fully addicted.
>      >
>      >? ? ? ?Brian
>      >
>      > On 15-Jun-24 10:40, Guy Almes wrote:
>      >>? ? ?Three interesting stories.
>      >>? ? ?A little more detail on the first of them: during the 1990s,
>     there
>      >> was a startup called International Discount Telephony (which still
>      >> exists as idt.net
>     <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://idt.net__;!!KwNVnqRv!BySc1ZyMadb3KL9Y85g8b2-zvPEE99f6bVPW8ht5VvP1XNj1c6vflmBYLE9KiyluHfrMxSz77XM$>).? It had a switching facility in New Jersey.? Its
>      >> customers were typically from Europe.? An example given
>     customer, say
>      >> living in Frankfurt, would sign up and be assigned a New Jersey
>     phone
>      >> number.? If that customer wanted to call someone in Dallas, he would
>      >> call that NJ phone number.? The switch at IDT would "answer" the
>     call
>      >> and wait for touch tone commands from the customer.? In the example
>      >> given, the customer would then key in the Dallas phone number he was
>      >> actually trying to get to.? The switch would then hang up, place a
>      >> telephone call from New Jersey to the target number in Dallas,
>     place a
>      >> second call from New Jersey to the customer in Frankfurt, and
>     splice the
>      >> two calls together so that the Frankfurt customer was now
>     talking to the
>      >> target Dallas person.? The cost charged to the customer included the
>      >> domestic US long distance New Jersey to Dallas call, the
>     international
>      >> call from New Jersey to Frankfurt, and a fee.? The value all
>     hinged on
>      >> the international call from the US to Germany being much cheaper
>     than
>      >> the call from Germany to the US.
>      >>? ? ?The idea that they worked even from Geneva to Madrid (thus
>     with two
>      >> international calls from New Jersey) demonstrates the degree of the
>      >> overpricing by European PTTs.? One can imagine how unhappy the
>     PTTs were.
>      >>? ? ?By some telling of the story, this little New Jersey startup
>     played a
>      >> key role in getting the European PTTs to dramatically reduce their
>      >> prices for international calls.? Again, by some tellings of the
>     story,
>      >> this played a role in the undoing of the whole European PTT thing.
>      >>
>      >>? ? ?If there is a flaw in your brief version of the story, it's the
>      >> innocent word "between".? We forget how huge the difference was
>     between
>      >> the US-to-Geneva price and the Geneva-to-US price.
>      >>
>      >>? ? ?At that time, Americans were confident that the US phone
>     companies
>      >> were much more reasonable than the European phone companies.
>      >>
>      >>? ? ?Regards,
>      >>? ? ? -- Guy
>      >>
>      >> On 6/14/24 4:58 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>      >>> For some years, it was cheaper via New Jersey between Geneva
>     and Madrid, iirc. Also slightly more legal, since the actual
>     switching took place on deregulated US soil.
>      >>>
>      >>> There was a story that one of the very large pharma companies
>     based in Basel (Switzerland) had data links out the front door to
>     the Swiss PTT and out the back door into Germany. What happened
>     inside the building was a trade secret ;-).
>      >>>
>      >>> At CERN we were switching traffic between researchers. In about
>     1986, Francois Fluckiger and I went with CERN's Director-General
>     Herwig Schopper to discuss all this with the head of the Swiss PTT.
>     At that time the Swiss allowed "value-added networks" which meant
>     that the data had to be stationary for a while (presumably to have
>     some value added to it). I remember asking how long a packet had to
>     remain inside a router to count as value-added. Anyway we were a
>     treaty organisation so normal rules didn't apply (and we were the
>     biggest switching point in EARN). The PTT had no idea how to
>     respond, so they basically gave us a free pass.
>      >>>
>      >>> Regards
>      >>>? ? ? ?Brian Carpenter
>      >>>
>      >>> On 15-Jun-24 06:53, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>      >>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago?
>     "star-something?"
>      >>>>
>      >>>> v
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
>      >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>      >>>>
>      >>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the
>     cheapest and
>      >>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through
>     Northern Virginia.
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>      >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted
>     networking
>      >>>>> outside of academia.? At the time, I was involved in
>     deploying and
>      >>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+
>     countries.
>      >>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could
>     literally (almost) see
>      >>>>> each other across a river.? ?But they were in two different
>     countries.? Due
>      >>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive
>     to lease a
>      >>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was
>     to lease a
>      >>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled
>     thousands of
>      >>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and
>     back.? ?CEPT may
>      >>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
>     networking,
>      >>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.? ?I
>     don't know when
>      >>>>> those rules changed.
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> Jack Haverty
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>      >>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks
>     to EARN for
>      >>>>>>> making the case.
>      >>>>>>> v
>      >>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via
>     Internet-history <
>      >>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>      >>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> Julf,
>      >>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in
>     Europe to provide
>      >>>>>>>> network services amongst different
>     institutions/corporations within
>      >>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the
>     monopoly of
>      >>>>> voice
>      >>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits
>     amongst an
>      >>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport
>     services. As a
>      >>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the
>     CEPT (the
>      >>>>> European
>      >>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
>     operations
>      >>>>> down
>      >>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that? the
>     purpose of the
>      >>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each
>     other, i.e.
>      >>>>> one
>      >>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community,
>     and eventually
>      >>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue
>     to operate.
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> Regards
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>      >>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>      >>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org>]
>      >>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>      >>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>      >>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com
>     <mailto:julf at julf.com>>;internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>      >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion
>     on the Birth
>      >>>>> of
>      >>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12
>     Meeting in
>      >>>>> Athens,
>      >>>>>>>> Greece]
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to
>     start with?
>      >>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>      >>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like
>     JANET (where
>      >>>>> I
>      >>>>>>>> "lived").
>      >>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking
>     1985-88)
>      >>>>> Kindest
>      >>>>>>>> regards,
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> Olivier
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history
>     wrote:
>      >>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards
>     the academic
>      >>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>      >>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>? ? ? ?Julf
>      >>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via
>     Internet-history wrote:
>      >>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhcEauzNyw$>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>>All the best,
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>> Frank
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhedAATfSw$>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>>>Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>     <tel:+421%20919%20416%20714> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>      >>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>     <tel:+420%20775%20230%20885> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>      >>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>      >>>>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>     <mailto:frantisek.borsik at gmail.com>
>      >>>>>>>> --
>      >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>      >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>      >>>>>>>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>>>--
>      >>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>      >>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>      >>>>>>>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
>      >>>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>
>      >>>>>>
>      >>>>>>>--
>      >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>      >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>      >>>>>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>> >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>>>--
>      >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>      >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>      >>>>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>> >>>> >>> >>> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
>      >>>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>
>      >>>>--
>      >>> Internet-history mailing list
>      >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>      >>>
>     https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!DkWDwXU_KyfjZj1KKVqgVhoNAnjKnQHLej97d-8k6Lxh47O1F7VUPzNi-5bddOkJJgS8hTjxkm5o8vdHHrWSwhd8rIQFiw$>>
>      >>>
>      >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
> 
> 
> until further notice
> 
> 
> 

From julf at Julf.com  Sat Jun 15 02:36:20 2024
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 11:36:20 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
Message-ID: <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>

Daniele,

I am well aware of the situation, the PTT monopolies and the "ITU
Regime" back in the day. That didn't stop us from running UUCP,
with email and netnews - but I agree, it wasn't IP and it wasn't
over leased lines.

	Julf

On 14/06/2024 17:41, Daniele Bovio via Internet-history wrote:
> Julf,
> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide network services amongst different institutions/corporations within countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Daniele Bovio
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]
> 
> Thanks for sharing.
> 
> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I "lived").
> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest regards,
> 
> Olivier
> 
> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>
>>      Julf
>>
>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>
>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>
>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>
>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>
>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 


From el at lisse.na  Sat Jun 15 09:49:24 2024
From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 18:49:24 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <1ea39d51-a208-4537-9df7-c547040c38bb@Spark>

UUCP (Taylor) and UUPC (!) were instrumental in "connecting" several countries to the Internet, notably South Africa (Mike Lawrie), Namibia (yours truly) and Cambodia (and of course others I am not personally so aware off (such as Zimbabwe and Zambia). Randy Bush deserves huge credit here.

Using smail allowed simple domain name based routing, batching and compressing made this very effective.

Incremental growth with cost recovery led to seamless switching to a leased line once that was cheaper.

Sendmail (m4) and Postfix also support(ed) batching/compressing, until there was bandwidth to speak off.


el


--
Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (retired)
el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP
10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply
On 15. Jun 2024 at 11:36 +0200, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>, wrote:
> Daniele,
>
> I am well aware of the situation, the PTT monopolies and the "ITU
> Regime" back in the day. That didn't stop us from running UUCP,
> with email and netnews - but I agree, it wasn't IP and it wasn't
> over leased lines.
>
> Julf
>
> On 14/06/2024 17:41, Daniele Bovio via Internet-history wrote:
> > Julf,
> > In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide network services amongst different institutions/corporations within countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that the purpose of the network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Daniele Bovio
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> > To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]
> >
> > Thanks for sharing.
> >
> > In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
> > In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I "lived").
> > The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest regards,
> >
> > Olivier
> >
> > On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> > > Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
> > > networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> > >
> > > Julf
> > >
> > > On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> > > > It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> > > >
> > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
> > > >
> > > > All the best,
> > > >
> > > > Frank
> > > >
> > > > Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> > > >
> > > > Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> > > >
> > > > iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
> > > >
> > > > Skype: casioa5302ca
> > > >
> > > > frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From gnu at toad.com  Sat Jun 15 12:24:03 2024
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2024 12:24:03 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu> 
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <20127.1718479443@hop.toad.com>

Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> While not super-expensive and certainly well-intentioned, it did have
> definite advantages for the US by maintaining a kind of US-centrism of
> the international Internet topology for several years.  The historical
> consequences of this were not merely economic.

As noted, this was also true in international telephony.

Histories of WW2 written before the disclosure of the Polish,
UK, and US high volume breaking of the German Enigma traffic had
to be significantly revised.  It will be interesting to see how the
history of international telegraphy, telephony, and the Internet will
shift when the relevant history emerges from classified restrictions.

Some sources have claimed that the long-term partnership between AT&T
and NSA was behind the relatively low prices for US-based international
telephone traffic.  It was easy for NSA to wiretap foreign voice
communications that were deliberately routed through the United States
and through its partner AT&T.  Covertly collecting a similar volume of
traffic from a myriad of foreign destinations (and also covertly
bringing it back to the US for processing) would have been much harder
for NSA.

The Center for Seismic Studies was another example, funded to bring
classified Soviet nuclear explosion test monitoring data from Norway to
Northern Virginia, and meanwhile letting anybody in Europe piggyback
free email and netnews traffic on that expensive ...!seismo!mcvax!
undersea leased line.  Again, that cover traffic was trivial to wiretap
at the cable landing where it crossed the US border.  The CSS experience
led directly to the Uunet centralized-uucp mail and netnews service,
which then led to forming the second US commercial ISP, also called
Uunet.  Uunet and its first big customer The Microsoft Network were
instrumental in launching the rapid Internet expansion of the 1990s.

Today, legalized monitoring of billions of worldwide users by offering
them "free" or underpriced services is a business model followed by
Google and Facebook.  NSA could never get aboveboard legal permission to
do the level of intense minute-by-minute population-wide monitoring that
Google does, for example.  But whatever these companies collect and
retain is easy for the spooks to obtain using corrupt laws in the United
States.

	John


From sghuter at nsrc.org  Mon Jun 17 13:06:18 2024
From: sghuter at nsrc.org (Steven G. Huter)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 13:06:18 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggf4tQcWjUOnFEB_g=v2hKO0E-jzWecAypTBhzpgnSvRhw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <c8d8150f-90af-472e-9dde-330007f75063@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggf4tQcWjUOnFEB_g=v2hKO0E-jzWecAypTBhzpgnSvRhw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2acfb21a-9ff0-48f9-8612-6b1b2626447d@nsrc.org>

NSF award info about STAR TAP - Science, Technology And Research Transit 
Access Point

1997-2000

https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=9712283

Continuation award to 2005

https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=9980480&HistoricalAwards=false

Steve Huter

On 6/14/24 4:16 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> Seems like some such
>
> V
>
> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 15:35 Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:
>
>> StarTap?
>>          -- Guy
>>
>> On 6/14/24 2:53 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest and
>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern
>> Virginia.
>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+ countries.
>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally (almost)
>> see
>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.
>> Due
>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to lease a
>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to lease a
>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT may
>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
>> networking,
>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know when
>>>> those rules changed.
>>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>>
>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN for
>>>>>> making the case.
>>>>>> v
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Julf,
>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to
>> provide
>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly
>> of
>>>> voice
>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst
>> an
>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As
>> a
>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>>>> European
>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
>> operations
>>>> down
>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of
>> the
>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e.
>>>> one
>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and
>> eventually
>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the
>> Birth
>>>> of
>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>>>> Athens,
>>>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start
>> with?
>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET
>> (where
>>>> I
>>>>>>> "lived").
>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>>>> Kindest
>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the
>> academic
>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      Julf
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
>>>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>
>>> --
>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>> Vint Cerf
>>> Google, LLC
>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>
>>>
>>> until further notice
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>


From vgcerf at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 13:08:57 2024
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 16:08:57 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <2acfb21a-9ff0-48f9-8612-6b1b2626447d@nsrc.org>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <c8d8150f-90af-472e-9dde-330007f75063@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggf4tQcWjUOnFEB_g=v2hKO0E-jzWecAypTBhzpgnSvRhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2acfb21a-9ff0-48f9-8612-6b1b2626447d@nsrc.org>
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_Ws-FBeUNC5_t6qAcqOtonm2eHU2o363F8P=6CJXnk9Rg@mail.gmail.com>

thanks Steve - yes "Star TAP" was the term I was searching for.

v


On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 4:06?PM Steven G. Huter via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> NSF award info about STAR TAP - Science, Technology And Research Transit
> Access Point
>
> 1997-2000
>
> https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=9712283
>
> Continuation award to 2005
>
>
> https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=9980480&HistoricalAwards=false
>
> Steve Huter
>
> On 6/14/24 4:16 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > Seems like some such
> >
> > V
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 15:35 Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:
> >
> >> StarTap?
> >>          -- Guy
> >>
> >> On 6/14/24 2:53 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
> >>>
> >>> v
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest
> and
> >>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern
> >> Virginia.
> >>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
> >>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
> >>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+
> countries.
> >>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally
> (almost)
> >> see
> >>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.
> >> Due
> >>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to
> lease a
> >>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to
> lease a
> >>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
> >>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
> >>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT
> may
> >>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
> >> networking,
> >>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know
> when
> >>>> those rules changed.
> >>>>> Jack Haverty
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN
> for
> >>>>>> making the case.
> >>>>>> v
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history
> <
> >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Julf,
> >>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to
> >> provide
> >>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
> >>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly
> >> of
> >>>> voice
> >>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst
> >> an
> >>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As
> >> a
> >>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
> >>>> European
> >>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
> >> operations
> >>>> down
> >>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of
> >> the
> >>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other,
> i.e.
> >>>> one
> >>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and
> >> eventually
> >>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to
> operate.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
> >>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
> >>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> >>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the
> >> Birth
> >>>> of
> >>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
> >>>> Athens,
> >>>>>>> Greece]
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start
> >> with?
> >>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> >>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET
> >> (where
> >>>> I
> >>>>>>> "lived").
> >>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> >>>> Kindest
> >>>>>>> regards,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Olivier
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the
> >> academic
> >>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>      Julf
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
> >>>>>>>>> All the best,
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Frank
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
> >>>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >>>>>>> --
> >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> >>> Vint Cerf
> >>> Google, LLC
> >>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> >>> Reston, VA 20190
> >>> +1 (571) 213 1346
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> until further notice
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >> <
> >>
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
> >>>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From sghuter at nsrc.org  Mon Jun 17 13:16:33 2024
From: sghuter at nsrc.org (Steven G. Huter)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 13:16:33 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05bc42dc-51ec-4b44-bbc8-5a594cfa6f1f@nsrc.org>


On 6/14/24 4:54 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> The NSF International Connections program run by Steve Goldstein for a
> time, was a key facilitator of linking national research and education
> networks to the NSFNET backbone and, through the Internet architecture, to
> each other. Hard to overstate how important that program was.

I wholeheartedly agree.

During Dr. Goldstein's tenure as a program director in the NSF's 
Computer and Information Sciences and Engineering (CISE) Directorate, he 
created and launched the International Connections Management (ICM) 
project, which was awarded to Sprint in 1991. ICM succeeded in 
connecting academic networks from about 25 countries to the NSFnet and 
to its research and education networking successor, the vBNS. I believe 
the last country to be connected under ICM was Mongolia in early 1996.

Mongolia is on the Internet (January 1996)

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=890202384717:497424020&fromISO=MN

Steve Huter



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 13:35:55 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 08:35:55 +1200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_Ws-FBeUNC5_t6qAcqOtonm2eHU2o363F8P=6CJXnk9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <c8d8150f-90af-472e-9dde-330007f75063@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggf4tQcWjUOnFEB_g=v2hKO0E-jzWecAypTBhzpgnSvRhw@mail.gmail.com>
 <2acfb21a-9ff0-48f9-8612-6b1b2626447d@nsrc.org>
 <CAAFtm_Ws-FBeUNC5_t6qAcqOtonm2eHU2o363F8P=6CJXnk9Rg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f9e2b4be-0866-4e68-b6db-5607a641c9d9@gmail.com>

STARTAP was replaced by STARLIGHT when fibre came along. Their site is archived at https://startap.net/startap/. There are lots of details in the reports to NSF at https://startap.net/startap/PUBLICATIONS/pubAnnualReports.html

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 18-Jun-24 08:08, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> thanks Steve - yes "Star TAP" was the term I was searching for.
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Mon, Jun 17, 2024 at 4:06?PM Steven G. Huter via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> NSF award info about STAR TAP - Science, Technology And Research Transit
>> Access Point
>>
>> 1997-2000
>>
>> https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=9712283
>>
>> Continuation award to 2005
>>
>>
>> https://www.nsf.gov/awardsearch/showAward?AWD_ID=9980480&HistoricalAwards=false
>>
>> Steve Huter
>>
>> On 6/14/24 4:16 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Seems like some such
>>>
>>> V
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024, 15:35 Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:
>>>
>>>> StarTap?
>>>>           -- Guy
>>>>
>>>> On 6/14/24 2:53 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> or possibly through an NSF sponsored IXP in Chicago? "star-something?"
>>>>>
>>>>> v
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 2:47?PM John Day via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> If I remember correctly, for quite sometime in the 90s, the cheapest
>> and
>>>>>> fastest route intra-European for all of them was through Northern
>>>> Virginia.
>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 2024, at 12:30, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>> The situation in EU in the 1990+- time frame also impacted networking
>>>>>> outside of academia.  At the time, I was involved in deploying and
>>>>>> operating a private internet (a corporate "intranet") in 100+
>> countries.
>>>>>> In one case, we had two offices in Europe that could literally
>> (almost)
>>>> see
>>>>>> each other across a river.   But they were in two different countries.
>>>> Due
>>>>>> to the PTT tariffs and constraints, it was far less expensive to
>> lease a
>>>>>> trans-atlantic circuit from each city to New York than it was to
>> lease a
>>>>>> circuit across that river between the two countries.
>>>>>>> So all of our IP traffic crossing that river travelled thousands of
>>>>>> miles "across the pond" (Atlantic) to New York City and back.   CEPT
>> may
>>>>>> have made an exception to allow interconnections for academic
>>>> networking,
>>>>>> but that policy hadn't spread to the rest of us yet.   I don't know
>> when
>>>>>> those rules changed.
>>>>>>> Jack Haverty
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 6/14/24 08:48, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>> that was quite a barrier to networking in the EU - thanks to EARN
>> for
>>>>>>>> making the case.
>>>>>>>> v
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 14, 2024 at 11:42?AM Daniele Bovio via Internet-history
>> <
>>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Julf,
>>>>>>>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to
>>>> provide
>>>>>>>>> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
>>>>>>>>> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly
>>>> of
>>>>>> voice
>>>>>>>>> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst
>>>> an
>>>>>>>>> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As
>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the
>>>>>> European
>>>>>>>>> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the
>>>> operations
>>>>>> down
>>>>>>>>> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of
>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other,
>> i.e.
>>>>>> one
>>>>>>>>> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and
>>>> eventually
>>>>>>>>> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to
>> operate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Daniele Bovio
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:
>>>>>> internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>>>>>>>> To: Johan Helsingius<julf at julf.com>;
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the
>>>> Birth
>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>> the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
>>>>>> Athens,
>>>>>>>>> Greece]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start
>>>> with?
>>>>>>>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
>>>>>>>>> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET
>>>> (where
>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>> "lived").
>>>>>>>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
>>>>>> Kindest
>>>>>>>>> regards,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Olivier
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the
>>>> academic
>>>>>>>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>       Julf
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiIb97dhJA$
>>>>>>>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Frank
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiINKVhmVw$
>>>>>>>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>> <+421%20919%20416%20714>
>>>>>>>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>> <+420%20775%20230%20885>
>>>>>>>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>>> Google, LLC
>>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> until further notice
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>> <
>>>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BPLHK8zxWJf99wIq6ugW06XFCfIxGmEVoc8OgjSJ6-hspkaRH6UDU0sfJF1JDiEg1VfFZRHx6GJHKlIHgT_UhiLKM5b3Sw$
>>>>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>

From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Mon Jun 17 13:42:45 2024
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 22:42:45 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <20127.1718479443@hop.toad.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
 <20127.1718479443@hop.toad.com>
Message-ID: <202406172042.45HKgjwj057797@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 John Gilmore via Internet-history writes:

 > <SNIP>

 > The Center for Seismic Studies was another example, funded to bring
 > classified Soviet nuclear explosion test monitoring data from Norway to
 > Northern Virginia, and meanwhile letting anybody in Europe piggyback
 > free email and netnews traffic on that expensive ...!seismo!mcvax!
 > undersea leased line.  Again, that cover traffic was trivial to wiretap
 > at the cable landing where it crossed the US border.  The CSS experience
 > led directly to the Uunet centralized-uucp mail and netnews service,
 > which then led to forming the second US commercial ISP, also called
 > Uunet.  Uunet and its first big customer The Microsoft Network were
 > instrumental in launching the rapid Internet expansion of the 1990s.

Interesting story but note that the seismo!mcvax link did already
exist (long) before the data about nuclear explosion test data went
over that route.

mcvax was a central hub for uucp connection various parts of Europe
(and the world) to the world. The CWI could do this because it was
all done on a cost recovery  base.  When the bandwidth via dial-up
and X.25 lines couldn't handle the traffic anymore we decided to
have a fixed line in and seismo was willing to host the US part of
that. It just fitted in the fiscal year, A bummer was that there
due to some misinformation, the line costed twice what we calculated.
You'll find some details in "Casting the net" by Peter Salus.

So, no, there was no an expensive undersea leased line between
seismo and mcvax. I wonder where these embellishments about "expensive
wiretapped" line comes from. Furthermore, mcvax was located in
Amsterdam (NL), not in Norway.

	jaap



From sghuter at nsrc.org  Mon Jun 17 13:51:03 2024
From: sghuter at nsrc.org (Steven G. Huter)
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2024 13:51:03 -0700
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <1ea39d51-a208-4537-9df7-c547040c38bb@Spark>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
 <1ea39d51-a208-4537-9df7-c547040c38bb@Spark>
Message-ID: <b2cc13cd-9e23-423d-b478-b1f96d6ea770@nsrc.org>


On 6/15/24 9:49 AM, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote:
> UUCP (Taylor) and UUPC (!) were instrumental in "connecting" several countries to the Internet, notably South Africa (Mike Lawrie), Namibia (yours truly) and Cambodia (and of course others I am not personally so aware off (such as Zimbabwe and Zambia). Randy Bush deserves huge credit here.
>
Greetings Eberhard

Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 18:18:50 PST
Subject: two hours, uucp, uunet, modems, the universe, and everything

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=898128827821:488960662&fromISO=ZA

Date: Fri, 10 Aug 90 21:37:12 PDT
Subject: Email connection in Namibia

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=898132671877:489011257&fromISO=NA

Date: Sun, 11 Jul 92 10:14:02 PST
Subject: Electronic Mail in Zambia

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=890202368142:497425319&fromISO=ZM

Date: Sun, 28 Oct 90 12:51:43 SAST
Subject: UUCP feed to Zimbabwe

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=907739292011:489009737&fromISO=ZW

Date: Fri, 8 Nov 91 21:58:13 PST
Subject: South Africa, Namibia, Zimbabwe leased line implementation

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=907740197184:489045502&fromISO=ZW

Date: Mon, 31 Oct 1994 16:19:50 GMT-2
Subject: Botswana Connectivity Update

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=890202288585:497424259&fromISO=BW

Date: Thu, 15 Sep 94 17:48 GMT
Subject: Guinea online

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=890202303003:497426928&fromISO=GN

Date: Tue, 25 Mar 97 14:06 PST

Subject: Liberia first connection via UUCP

https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/report.php?id=890202306204:497425879&fromISO=LR

etc.

More details archived here on this interactive map: Stepping Stones to 
the Internet in Africa

https://nsrc.org/AFRICA/network-history

Steve Huter


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Mon Jun 17 14:38:56 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:38:56 +1200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <20127.1718479443@hop.toad.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
 <20127.1718479443@hop.toad.com>
Message-ID: <f210902e-ed86-407f-ab01-a2e2dbcfda4f@gmail.com>

On 16-Jun-24 07:24, John Gilmore wrote:
> Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> While not super-expensive and certainly well-intentioned, it did have
>> definite advantages for the US by maintaining a kind of US-centrism of
>> the international Internet topology for several years.  The historical
>> consequences of this were not merely economic.
> 
> As noted, this was also true in international telephony.
> 
> Histories of WW2 written before the disclosure of the Polish,
> UK, and US high volume breaking of the German Enigma traffic had
> to be significantly revised.  It will be interesting to see how the
> history of international telegraphy, telephony, and the Internet will
> shift when the relevant history emerges from classified restrictions.
> 
> Some sources have claimed that the long-term partnership between AT&T
> and NSA was behind the relatively low prices for US-based international
> telephone traffic.  It was easy for NSA to wiretap foreign voice
> communications that were deliberately routed through the United States
> and through its partner AT&T.  Covertly collecting a similar volume of
> traffic from a myriad of foreign destinations (and also covertly
> bringing it back to the US for processing) would have been much harder
> for NSA.

I don't know about that, but of course it's well known that the routing
of many international cable routes through the UK was of great intelligence
value to the British during World War I. It's certain that NSA was aware
of that history.

But on the other hand, 5 Eyes was well established (known as UKUSA)
from the very beginning of the NSA, and the benefits of off-shore
intercepts beyond the reach of domestic legal restrictions were well
understood. So they definitely did that too.

    Brian

> 
> The Center for Seismic Studies was another example, funded to bring
> classified Soviet nuclear explosion test monitoring data from Norway to
> Northern Virginia, and meanwhile letting anybody in Europe piggyback
> free email and netnews traffic on that expensive ...!seismo!mcvax!
> undersea leased line.  Again, that cover traffic was trivial to wiretap
> at the cable landing where it crossed the US border.  The CSS experience
> led directly to the Uunet centralized-uucp mail and netnews service,
> which then led to forming the second US commercial ISP, also called
> Uunet.  Uunet and its first big customer The Microsoft Network were
> instrumental in launching the rapid Internet expansion of the 1990s.
> 
> Today, legalized monitoring of billions of worldwide users by offering
> them "free" or underpriced services is a business model followed by
> Google and Facebook.  NSA could never get aboveboard legal permission to
> do the level of intense minute-by-minute population-wide monitoring that
> Google does, for example.  But whatever these companies collect and
> retain is easy for the spooks to obtain using corrupt laws in the United
> States.
> 
> 	John


From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Jun 18 00:34:50 2024
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 09:34:50 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <20956.1718659211@hop.toad.com>
References: <20956.1718659211@hop.toad.com>
Message-ID: <202406180734.45I7Yo2D073550@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 John Gilmore writes:

 > Thank you for your corrections about the timing of the seismo!mcvax
 > link.

Also note that mcvax was not in Norway but the Netherlands.

 > Jaap Akkerhuis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
 > >                                     When the bandwidth via dial-up
 > > and X.25 lines couldn't handle the traffic anymore we decided to
 > > have a fixed line in and seismo was willing to host the US part of
 > > that.  ...
 > > 
 > > So, no, there was no an expensive undersea leased line between
 > > seismo and mcvax.

 > What was the "fixed line"?  In the US that is normally called a "leased
 > line".  Did it not run on an undersea cable?

Same difference, I don't want to quibble over US terminology.

One just went to the local phone company (in this case the state
owned monopoly) and asked for a (fixed,leased,private) line between
point A and B. One gets an offer and can accept it or not.  Given
that there was zero budget for this we kept out fingers crossed
that we would break even so management wouldn't protest.

	jaap


From paf at paftech.se  Tue Jun 18 01:23:24 2024
From: paf at paftech.se (=?utf-8?Q?Patrik_F=C3=A4ltstr=C3=B6m?=)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 10:23:24 +0200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
References: <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <BFA5B154-0E36-42AA-A454-C0FCFC696B30@paftech.se>

It is a bit more complicated. When NorduNET was created (and the various local IP based networks in the Nordics, like SUNET) a few commercial companies were connected. When in September 1988 a fixed satellite connection was created between KTH and JvNC, an NSFNet agreement had to be signed, which disallowed non commercial traffic (I was not part of the actual discussion so others might have more details on this ? I just took care of some of the technical bits). This triggered a discussion on creation of a commercial Internet provider in Sweden which the incumbent Telia refused to be part of. This in turn triggered Jan Stenbeck to (for the 2nd time) kick the behind of the incumbent (and Sweden), started SwipNet, later incorporated in Tele2, and the rest is history.

I.e. there was some commercial IP on fixed lines before the connection to NSFNet was created.

paf

> 15 juni 2024 kl. 11:36 skrev Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>:
> 
> ?Daniele,
> 
> I am well aware of the situation, the PTT monopolies and the "ITU
> Regime" back in the day. That didn't stop us from running UUCP,
> with email and netnews - but I agree, it wasn't IP and it wasn't
> over leased lines.
> 
>    Julf
> 
>> On 14/06/2024 17:41, Daniele Bovio via Internet-history wrote:
>> Julf,
>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide network services amongst different institutions/corporations within countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>> Regards
>> Daniele Bovio
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>> To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]
>> Thanks for sharing.
>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I "lived").
>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest regards,
>> Olivier
>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>> 
>>>     Julf
>>> 
>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>> 
>>>> All the best,
>>>> 
>>>> Frank
>>>> 
>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>> 
>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>> 
>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>> 
>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>> 
>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From vint at google.com  Tue Jun 18 03:06:06 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2024 06:06:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <BFA5B154-0E36-42AA-A454-C0FCFC696B30@paftech.se>
References: <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
 <BFA5B154-0E36-42AA-A454-C0FCFC696B30@paftech.se>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggf=5KRdPaLADvA5UAD_fBXFZVoyMo4hBAq28ymNobm6hg@mail.gmail.com>

don't you mean "disallowed commercial traffic" ?
v


On Tue, Jun 18, 2024 at 4:23?AM Patrik F?ltstr?m via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> It is a bit more complicated. When NorduNET was created (and the various
> local IP based networks in the Nordics, like SUNET) a few commercial
> companies were connected. When in September 1988 a fixed satellite
> connection was created between KTH and JvNC, an NSFNet agreement had to be
> signed, which disallowed non commercial traffic (I was not part of the
> actual discussion so others might have more details on this ? I just took
> care of some of the technical bits). This triggered a discussion on
> creation of a commercial Internet provider in Sweden which the incumbent
> Telia refused to be part of. This in turn triggered Jan Stenbeck to (for
> the 2nd time) kick the behind of the incumbent (and Sweden), started
> SwipNet, later incorporated in Tele2, and the rest is history.
>
> I.e. there was some commercial IP on fixed lines before the connection to
> NSFNet was created.
>
> paf
>
> > 15 juni 2024 kl. 11:36 skrev Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org>:
> >
> > ?Daniele,
> >
> > I am well aware of the situation, the PTT monopolies and the "ITU
> > Regime" back in the day. That didn't stop us from running UUCP,
> > with email and netnews - but I agree, it wasn't IP and it wasn't
> > over leased lines.
> >
> >    Julf
> >
> >> On 14/06/2024 17:41, Daniele Bovio via Internet-history wrote:
> >> Julf,
> >> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide
> network services amongst different institutions/corporations within
> countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice
> and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an
> heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a
> matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European
> cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down
> exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the
> network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one
> homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually
> after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
> >> Regards
> >> Daniele Bovio
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org]
> On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
> >> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
> >> To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth
> of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in
> Athens, Greece]
> >> Thanks for sharing.
> >> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
> >> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and
> EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I
> "lived").
> >> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88)
> Kindest regards,
> >> Olivier
> >>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
> >>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
> >>>
> >>>     Julf
> >>>
> >>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
> >>>>
> >>>> All the best,
> >>>>
> >>>> Frank
> >>>>
> >>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
> >>>>
> >>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 <+421%20919%20416%20714>
> >>>>
> >>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 <+420%20775%20230%20885>
> >>>>
> >>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
> >>>>
> >>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice


From lpress at csudh.edu  Tue Jun 18 21:21:34 2024
From: lpress at csudh.edu (Larry Press)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 04:21:34 +0000
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <05bc42dc-51ec-4b44-bbc8-5a594cfa6f1f@nsrc.org>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <05bc42dc-51ec-4b44-bbc8-5a594cfa6f1f@nsrc.org>
Message-ID: <BYAPR03MB386388366B081721F9A4DE2DC2CF2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

Sprint noted 26 international connections as of October 1996:
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/236156.240575https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/236156.240575

and

Cuba was connected in September 1996::
https://laredcubana.blogspot.com/2011/02/cubas-first-internet-connection.html
[https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-FntxZdKpv9E/TWplyafev2I/AAAAAAAAAto/yhmA2GVo5EQ/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/jesusandvint.jpg]<https://laredcubana.blogspot.com/2011/02/cubas-first-internet-connection.html>
Cuba's first Internet connection<https://laredcubana.blogspot.com/2011/02/cubas-first-internet-connection.html>
Jesus Martinez (l) and Internet pioneer Vint Cerf Cuba's first Internet connection was made in September 1996. CENIAI, the National Cent...
laredcubana.blogspot.com




From lpress at csudh.edu  Tue Jun 18 21:31:16 2024
From: lpress at csudh.edu (Larry Press)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 04:31:16 +0000
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR03MB386388366B081721F9A4DE2DC2CF2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAJUtOOgWphsChnr3EodJYr+a=C46k0XrsQwOMsYa0MJHatMnMw@mail.gmail.com>
 <715c47f5-f01e-4efb-88e6-0d8a50549283@julf.com>
 <c11b277b-628b-498b-9fa9-b8202cc83989@gih.com>
 <026201dabe71$636890b0$2a39b210$@aol.com>
 <CAHxHggcZe=-VHOFJ=XDeLXEA7=9e+oA8S62TukOy4z_7D7vH0A@mail.gmail.com>
 <358c2f32-fad9-46b3-a5ee-2310acde5920@3kitty.org>
 <927401A6-3CA7-4B5C-B1D5-B86948F7F4A3@comcast.net>
 <CAHxHggdnj=BeAMAJ-5QjtXpBOr9sOSV8iBpna5J6bGqD9uLr4Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <03682d2b-a312-4747-881c-673bddbc502e@gmail.com>
 <bebb24bb-8ebc-40a1-9919-bc3f8d39a8bd@tamu.edu>
 <a04a51bf-e229-4a2c-8a46-8b97373174c6@gmail.com>
 <9758e475-be5b-4d15-965c-8f6b5e13b247@tamu.edu>
 <CAHxHggeaPbr5-wof7z8WsRDFGd1iTfTns5ppWnCkA+XMgA=bPg@mail.gmail.com>
 <05bc42dc-51ec-4b44-bbc8-5a594cfa6f1f@nsrc.org>
 <BYAPR03MB386388366B081721F9A4DE2DC2CF2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR03MB386328B08C1954793EC27B98C2CF2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

That didn't work. The links are:
International connections: https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/236156.240575
and
Cuban connection: https://laredcubana.blogspot.com/2011/02/cubas-first-internet-connection.html




From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Jun 18 22:13:43 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 17:13:43 +1200
Subject: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the
 European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens,
 Greece]
In-Reply-To: <BFA5B154-0E36-42AA-A454-C0FCFC696B30@paftech.se>
References: <027e4039-1c31-46ed-b5a3-e70ae5195852@Julf.com>
 <BFA5B154-0E36-42AA-A454-C0FCFC696B30@paftech.se>
Message-ID: <ce3e6653-b3d9-487a-bf10-12f94bdce17d@gmail.com>

Patrik,

This reminds me of the later period when CERN had more total Internet capacity than any other site in Europe - until the day that Peter L?thberg proudly announced that he had just installed much more in Stockholm (for EBONE) than we had in Geneva. For me, that marked the real advent of significant non-research & education Internet services in Europe.

CERN in July 1995 had (looking at an ancient email from me to Peter):

"(a) total bandwidth, where we have 20 Mbps plus a 34 Mbps ATM pilot
connection, on 23 active lines.

(b) aggregate traffic, where in June 1995 we had
1321 GBytes (4917 MPackets), of which 60% was transit."

EBONE installed multiple 34 Mbps circuits in 1996 and that marked the start of the real non-academic growth spurt. Peter then got bragging rights over CERN, at least for a while.

It's worth noting, however, the EBONE was never reserved for research & education purposes, even when it started in 1992 with 256 kbps links. I strongly advise people interested in that period to read Olivier Martin's book. (See the first two items at https://ictconsulting.ch/papers.html.)

    Brian


On 18-Jun-24 20:23, Patrik F?ltstr?m via Internet-history wrote:
> It is a bit more complicated. When NorduNET was created (and the various local IP based networks in the Nordics, like SUNET) a few commercial companies were connected. When in September 1988 a fixed satellite connection was created between KTH and JvNC, an NSFNet agreement had to be signed, which disallowed non commercial traffic (I was not part of the actual discussion so others might have more details on this ? I just took care of some of the technical bits). This triggered a discussion on creation of a commercial Internet provider in Sweden which the incumbent Telia refused to be part of. This in turn triggered Jan Stenbeck to (for the 2nd time) kick the behind of the incumbent (and Sweden), started SwipNet, later incorporated in Tele2, and the rest is history.
> 
> I.e. there was some commercial IP on fixed lines before the connection to NSFNet was created.
> 
> paf
> 
>> 15 juni 2024 kl. 11:36 skrev Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>:
>>
>> ?Daniele,
>>
>> I am well aware of the situation, the PTT monopolies and the "ITU
>> Regime" back in the day. That didn't stop us from running UUCP,
>> with email and netnews - but I agree, it wasn't IP and it wasn't
>> over leased lines.
>>
>>     Julf
>>
>>> On 14/06/2024 17:41, Daniele Bovio via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Julf,
>>> In 1984, when EARN was established, it was illegal in Europe to provide network services amongst different institutions/corporations within countries and across the borders because the PTTs had the monopoly of voice and data transport, so nobody could legally lease circuits amongst an heterogeneous number of sites and offer data transport services. As a matter of fact the EARN management was approached by the CEPT (the European cooperation structure of the PTTs) threatening to shut the operations down exactly for that reason. The EARN Board argued that  the purpose of the network was to allow scientists to communicate with each other, i.e. one homogeneous group: the Research and Academic Community, and eventually after a lot of arguing the CEPT allowed EARN to continue to operate.
>>> Regards
>>> Daniele Bovio
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Internet-history [mailto:internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2024 4:11 PM
>>> To: Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com>; internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> Subject: Re: [ih] Where it All Started: Panel Discussion on the Birth of the European Internet [RIPE NCC - South East Europe 12 Meeting in Athens, Greece]
>>> Thanks for sharing.
>>> In response to Julf's point --- wasn't it all academic to start with?
>>> In the early days, academia was leading in a few countries and EARN/NETNORTH/BITNET interfacing with local networks like JANET (where I "lived").
>>> The only alternative at the time was UUCP. (we're talking 1985-88) Kindest regards,
>>> Olivier
>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:23, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> Yes, very interesting discussion, but very biased towards the academic
>>>> networks (understandable given the event and the panelists).
>>>>
>>>>      Julf
>>>>
>>>> On 13/06/2024 14:16, Frantisek Borsik via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> It was share by RIPE on social media yesterday:
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAyxbwZzjTw
>>>>>
>>>>> All the best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Frank
>>>>>
>>>>> Frantisek (Frank) Borsik
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik
>>>>>
>>>>> Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714
>>>>>
>>>>> iMessage, mobile: +420775230885
>>>>>
>>>>> Skype: casioa5302ca
>>>>>
>>>>> frantisek.borsik at gmail.com
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From geoff at iconia.com  Wed Jun 19 05:58:59 2024
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2024 05:58:59 -0700
Subject: [ih] CenturyLink confirms over 30 copper thefts have resulted in
 delays in internet repairs (KEZI)
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrib2raMaM+1aTwrk5dAN0W5zshiDnEsESwXW+DZo8i7UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrib2raMaM+1aTwrk5dAN0W5zshiDnEsESwXW+DZo8i7UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrgFm2noTrw5Mv7ptGzwRVHD1hG3OV7tT3+M=5dtyXdK1w@mail.gmail.com>

EXCERPT:

Copper thefts in Eugene have caused long internet outages for CenturyLink
customers. The internet provider confirmed that more than 30 cases of
copper theft have taken place in the city within the last two weeks.

Keith Miller lives in the Bethel community in West Eugene where he had to
deal with almost two weeks without internet while being on medical leave at
home. At the start of the outage Miller had to wait a few days before it
was eventually restored. However, only a day later his internet was off
again for even longer. Miller said after spotting a work crew, they told
him that people had stolen the copper wiring needed to give him internet.


?That's obviously more than one group of people going around stealing
copper and he said they are getting very bold,? Miller said. ?It used to be
they'd do it in the middle of the night? now they're doing it in the middle
of the day."

[...]
https://www.kezi.com/news/centurylink-confirms-over-30-copper-thefts-have-resulted-in-delays-in-internet-repairs/article_fbc06776-2865-11ef-aa80-d794a4f3fe07.html

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From crypto at glassblower.info  Wed Jun 26 09:03:56 2024
From: crypto at glassblower.info (Tony Patti)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 12:03:56 -0400
Subject: [ih] Andrew Tanenbaum honored for pioneering MINIX
Message-ID: <1b6c01dac7e2$7346b140$59d413c0$@glassblower.info>

https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/25/tanenbaum_minix_award/

 

Published yesterday June 25, 2024 in The Register, quoting three paragraphs:

 

Andy Tanenbaum, creator of MINIX, has been recognized for his code, seminal
textbooks, 

and wider educational influence over much of the modern FOSS world.

 

Dr Andrew S Tanenbaum - often known as "ast" for short - has been honored in
the ACM Technical Awards 2023 

with the Association for Computing Machinery's Software System prize. The
award is for his creation of the MINIX operating system. 

It's not as famous as the offspring it directly inspired - the Linux kernel.
As well as that, though, MINIX 3 is a true FOSS microkernel OS, 

and as it's the software that powers the system management controller
embedded in most modern Intel processors, it's exceptionally widely used.

 

Although you may never have seen MINIX yourself, there's a very high
probability that you've used computers running it. 

Whatever OS you prefer, even if you're devoted to Windows or macOS, your
computer may be running MINIX 3 right now 

because Intel used it as the operating system of its chips' integrated
Management Engine. Most Intel-based computers have MINIX 3 inside.

 

Tony Patti

(ARPAnet NIC IDENT "TP4")



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 13:19:23 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 08:19:23 +1200
Subject: [ih] Andrew Tanenbaum honored for pioneering MINIX
In-Reply-To: <1b6c01dac7e2$7346b140$59d413c0$@glassblower.info>
References: <1b6c01dac7e2$7346b140$59d413c0$@glassblower.info>
Message-ID: <1e819309-1804-4281-8033-dec4246edcdb@gmail.com>

About 30 years ago, Andy gave a memorable seminar at CERN, in which
he said that he wasn't sure whether the future would be watching TV
on your computer, or TV sets running Unix.

All he missed was that you'd actually be doing both, but on a
telephone connected to the Internet.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 27-Jun-24 04:03, Tony Patti via Internet-history wrote:
> https://www.theregister.com/2024/06/25/tanenbaum_minix_award/
> 
>   
> 
> Published yesterday June 25, 2024 in The Register, quoting three paragraphs:
> 
>   
> 
> Andy Tanenbaum, creator of MINIX, has been recognized for his code, seminal
> textbooks,
> 
> and wider educational influence over much of the modern FOSS world.
> 
>   
> 
> Dr Andrew S Tanenbaum - often known as "ast" for short - has been honored in
> the ACM Technical Awards 2023
> 
> with the Association for Computing Machinery's Software System prize. The
> award is for his creation of the MINIX operating system.
> 
> It's not as famous as the offspring it directly inspired - the Linux kernel.
> As well as that, though, MINIX 3 is a true FOSS microkernel OS,
> 
> and as it's the software that powers the system management controller
> embedded in most modern Intel processors, it's exceptionally widely used.
> 
>   
> 
> Although you may never have seen MINIX yourself, there's a very high
> probability that you've used computers running it.
> 
> Whatever OS you prefer, even if you're devoted to Windows or macOS, your
> computer may be running MINIX 3 right now
> 
> because Intel used it as the operating system of its chips' integrated
> Management Engine. Most Intel-based computers have MINIX 3 inside.
> 
>   
> 
> Tony Patti
> 
> (ARPAnet NIC IDENT "TP4")
> 


From nethead at gmail.com  Wed Jun 26 17:12:01 2024
From: nethead at gmail.com (Joe Hamelin)
Date: Wed, 26 Jun 2024 17:12:01 -0700
Subject: [ih] Andrew Tanenbaum honored for pioneering MINIX
In-Reply-To: <1e819309-1804-4281-8033-dec4246edcdb@gmail.com>
References: <1b6c01dac7e2$7346b140$59d413c0$@glassblower.info>
 <1e819309-1804-4281-8033-dec4246edcdb@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAO0-hXYzXTjFhG58Fhk8j3MWH9KtJW=iCxJgNCRiUDCQdrKO9Q@mail.gmail.com>

>
> Andy is also known as the Vote Master (V) at electoral-vote.com, and
> rather snarky daily wrap-up of US election news.
>
> --
Joe Hamelin, W7COM, Tulalip, WA  Portland, OR, 360-474-7474


From york at isoc.org  Wed Jun 26 18:20:29 2024
From: york at isoc.org (Dan York)
Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2024 01:20:29 +0000
Subject: [ih] Andrew Tanenbaum honored for pioneering MINIX
In-Reply-To: <1b6c01dac7e2$7346b140$59d413c0$@glassblower.info>
References: <1b6c01dac7e2$7346b140$59d413c0$@glassblower.info>
Message-ID: <5FDFF5C0-E4AD-4CB6-9738-311B61B0D305@isoc.org>

Thanks for sharing this! Definitely a well-deserved award!

On Jun 26, 2024, at 12:03?PM, Tony Patti via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

Andy Tanenbaum, creator of MINIX, has been recognized for his code, seminal
textbooks,
<snip>
Although you may never have seen MINIX yourself, there's a very high
probability that you've used computers running it.

I was a student at the University of New Hampshire from 1985-1989 studying Computer Science[1] and we were using all the various operating systems? UNIX flavors, VAX/VMS, PRIMOS/PRIMIX, etc. etc  All through the various terminals of the time.

Then somewhere in there UNH set up a whole lab of those good old AT&T PC6300 PCs? and for a course we got Tanenbaum?s book, ?Operating Systems Design and Implementation?, and along with that came a copy of? MINIX!  (My 2024 brain tonight thought ?oh, it must have been on CD?? but articles say it would have been on floppy. ????)

The idea of running a *IX operating system on a regular old PC was mind-blowing, and I remember we who were CS majors spending MANY hours experimenting with it and seeing what all we could do.

That would of course set me up well for the all the many subsequent years I spent working with Linux!

MINIX was quite a great contribution!

Dan

[1] How I wound up graduating with a B.A. in German is a story for another time?

--
Dan York, Director, Internet Technology  |  Internet Society
york at isoc.org | +1-603-439-0024 | https://mastodon.social/@danyork

[image001.png]
internetsociety.org<https://www.internetsociety.org/> | @internetsociety<https://twitter.com/internetsociety>