From bpurvy at gmail.com  Wed Jul  3 22:01:30 2024
From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy)
Date: Wed, 3 Jul 2024 22:01:30 -0700
Subject: [ih] A chapter on an IETF meeting
Message-ID: <CAFq6nVEmG-UjXvfZa3rVVmw8k6E+bv5VeDDbEGtww=yMruJg3w@mail.gmail.com>

I'm publishing a chapter each week, but not putting these out *every* week,
since some folks didn't like it.

But this one is actually about a real IETF that I went to, so I'm making an
exception..

(I didn't actually run into a porn entrepreneur there, but a friend of mine
did have this experience somewhere else, and he said I represented it
pretty well.)

https://albertcory50.substack.com/p/this-new-internet-thing-chapter-9


From ocl at gih.com  Mon Jul 15 05:45:11 2024
From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?=)
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2024 13:45:11 +0100
Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_WEBCAST_JUL_15_=E2=80=93_The_Royal_Society?=
 =?utf-8?q?_=E2=80=93_Celebrating_the_50th_Anniversary_of_the_Internet?=
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk2hPAt35a+gYBzMT6gDP_Pp5EoXExx1KZ2Z2DMuYa2Xag@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk2hPAt35a+gYBzMT6gDP_Pp5EoXExx1KZ2Z2DMuYa2Xag@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ff25d40c-7f9b-461e-8be9-15b710264fc3@gih.com>

This has just started. Apologies for not sending the link to the 
ISOC.LIVE Webcast earlier.
O.


-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	[Internet Policy] WEBCAST JUL 15 ? The Royal Society ? 
Celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Internet
Date: 	Sun, 14 Jul 2024 11:44:38 -0400
From: 	Joly MacFie via InternetPolicy <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org>
Reply-To: 	Joly MacFie <joly.nyc at gmail.com>
To: 	internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org <InternetPolicy at elists.isoc.org>




This is the second i50 event, the first being the?May 19 IEEE Milestone 
<https://isoc.live/17910/>?. Now it's the ACM's turn, with The Royal 
Society?hosting.

Again, a high powered lineup of top speakers, this time focusing more on 
academics, but also including Doreen Bogdan-Martin of the ITU, and 
Maarten Botterman of GFCE/ICANN.

What both events do have in common is the People Centered Internet and 
its co-founders, Vint Cerf and Mei Lin Fung.

Read on blog <https://isoc.live/18150/>?or Reader 
<https://public-api.wordpress.com/bar/?stat=groovemails-events&bin=wpcom_email_click&redirect_to=https%3A%2F%2Fwordpress.com%2Fread%2Fblogs%2F151329629%2Fposts%2F18150&sr=1&signature=e8bb5b352688618acddd34cf09ded6da&user=2239291&_e=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&_z=z>
Site logo image 	ISOC LIVE?NOTICEBOARD <https://isoc.live/>



<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=8b885fa444ec8c2d6ff21d28c4b564407e32b1f2b0af91a4c54ef9d27f0765ef&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=a55167cfbef5996717ede08e46853048&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9pc29jLmxpdmUvMTgxNTA>On?Monday 
July 15 2024?from?1pm-7pm BST?(12:00-18:00 UTC) The Royal Society 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=624efcbd17c03af84c99879b513d0335f276f0063c4e437690553123779d9797&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=1eb7337299a6293a4b3d4c2c2a0868e2&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9yb3lhbHNvY2lldHkub3JnLw=>?and 
the Association for Computing Machinery 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=16165fec6ebd6d2201e914c720ac9f751adc85bd5d1c03c9f14d7a6f9b7043a8&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=32951b42423db435fe8effa0ff1c9a8e&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuYWNtLm9yZy8>?(ACM) 
will be *Celebrating the 50th Anniversary of the Internet 
<https://royalsociety.org/science-events-and-lectures/2024/07/celebrating-the-50th-anniversary-of-the-internet/> 
*in London, UK. The event will be opened by the co-inventor of the 
Internet *Dr Vint Cerf*?and will feature a series of panels with eminent 
speakers that will look back at what the Internet has achieved in the 
last fifty years and focus on the next generation of the Internet and 
AI, and is supported by the *Web Science Trust 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=6ad29b4014bbba892e439d1ae416349abb0558797230a84163dc7752e6054f83&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=53b1abb72e25a181fe058917f7120fb1&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly93ZWJzY2llbmNlLm9yZy8>, 
People-Centered Internet 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=ae1b16de67d88a3fe3267ad5aa7b55a73a8dc2e1e15cf28389b242d9e414f9f3&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=43781f2eb5101f9a2b8d868f292c889b&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9wZW9wbGVjZW50ZXJlZC5uZXQv>, 
Digital Enlightenment Forum 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=03945f76530ab6d0ed558a5c15b1bf312866aa629b9b62a8d60ed24c9deb7275&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=8b41696f65e5ceb002d22f4c69abd0c0&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZGlnaXRhbGVubGlnaHRlbm1lbnQub3JnLw=>, 
The Digital Humanism Initiative 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=1fce83ac88ead35285e0504335923a4cd0b8125f2f86dff40fc7be3c8bc41a28&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=a3bf28491ff00a850b82f05620bc54bf&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9jYWltbC5vcmcvZGlnaHVtLw=>,*?and 
the *Web Science Institute* 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=fb02a95f8bf3cd42876ae7130a70c97075044e200d498b6c1560d357fc77d8ab&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=e5c33f8d39fc0465380ac755ea154aeb&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuc291dGhhbXB0b24uYWMudWsvcmVzZWFyY2gvaW5zdGl0dXRlcy1jZW50cmVzL3dlYi1zY2llbmNlLWluc3RpdHV0ZQ=>, 
University of Southampton, UK.

*PROGRAMME*?(All times BST = UTC+1)

*13:00 Welcome*
*Areeq Chowdhury*, Head of Policy, Data and Digital Technologies, The 
Royal Society
*Prof. Yannis Ionnidis*, President, ACM
*Prof. Dame Wendy Hall*, University of Southampton / Web Science Trust

*13:05 Opening Speech / Conversation*
*Dr. Vint Cerf*, Vice President / Chief Internet Evangelist, Google
*Mei Lin Fung*, Chair / Co-founder, People-Centred Internet

*13:45 Panel 1: The Internet as an Infrastructure*
*Prof. Andrew Ellis*, Aston University
*Prof. Dimitra Simeonidou*, University of Bristol
*Maarten Botterman*, Board Director, ICANN
*Prof. Gaven Smith*, The University of Manchester
Chair: *Sir David Payne*, Professor of Photonics, University of Southampton

*15:15 Panel 2: The Internet as a Facilitator of Opportunity*
*Doreen Bogdan-Martin*, Secretary General, International 
Telecommunications Union (ITU)
*Prof. Jim Hendler*, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute (RPI)
*Alan Kay*, Computer Science Pioneer
*Prof. Bitange Ndemo*, Kenya's Ambassador to Belgium and EU
Chair: *Mei Lin Fung*, Chair / Co-founder, People-Centred Internet
Respondent: *Dr. Vint Cerf*

*Panel 3: The Internet and Society*
*Prof. Noshir Contractor*, Northwestern University
*Prof. Victoria Nash*, Oxford Internet Institute
*Prof. Sir Nigel Shadbolt*, University of Oxford
*Prof. Hannes Werthner*, Vienna University of Technology
Chair: *Dame Wendy Hall,*?Regius Professor of Computer Science, 
University of Southampton / Trustee, Web Science Institute / Director, 
Web Science Trust
Respondent: *Dr. Vint Cerf*

*Closing Remarks*
Dr. Vint Cerf, Vice President / Chief Internet Evangelist, Google

*LIVESTREAM https://youtu.be/ltF5uWB9Wg0 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=6c9dc03fa8e7c4387410708ac261fb19344cfa7819156edf6719a7d859305c3d&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=01124451c0dd6a2ae6dcd72df52b1e9e&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly95b3V0dS5iZS9sdEY1dVdCOVdnMA=>*

*REGISTER VIA EVENTBRITE https://bit.ly/4cW77lZ 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=00db1a310b08b63012ad757cf915ee63ee91049d1c4f4bf048b80ee43c44bf09&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=6de8051cf3756c5e770c1de5ca96520b&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9iaXQubHkvNGNXNzdsWg=>*

*REAL TIME TEXT (see ISOC.LIVE 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=8b885fa444ec8c2d6ff21d28c4b564407e32b1f2b0af91a4c54ef9d27f0765ef&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=a55167cfbef5996717ede08e46853048&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9pc29jLmxpdmUvMTgxNTA>)*

*TWITTER #i50 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=fd5230a5decaf1fb4ad6e575e7df23aafdc7fa416608d12d431b1c5058df14e9&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=6bfa6d57decc95902ec11ab258d8bdd0&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9iaXQubHkvNDY1Zkx3ag=>?@royalsociety 
@TheOfficialACM @PCI_Initiative @vgcerf @websciencetrust Digital 
Enlightenment Forum @DigHumTUWien @sotonWSI*

*MASTODON #i50 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=bc56acbf22ca9f1a9823ea07725d3e3a60b56e27bc426ef8386900de1206c130&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=3c6fee05de02f75ca280b891f5293cfa&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9tYXN0b2Rvbi5zb2NpYWwvdGFncy9pNTA>?@mastodon.acm.org 
<http://mastodon.acm.org/>*

*ARCHIVE*
*https://archive.org/details/uk-i50 
<http://isoc.live/?action=user_content_redirect&uuid=ad68edde3751455ac4886f21296517a54bfa885a36eb4f725f937139c2277b93&blog_id=151329629&post_id=18150&user_id=2239291&subs_id=125336&signature=74ddd7cc8a348ed9cba07994e1145984&email_name=new-post&user_email=joly at punkcast.com&encoded_url=aHR0cHM6Ly9hcmNoaXZlLm9yZy9kZXRhaWxzL3VrLWk1MA=>*

*** ISOC.LIVE is free community webcasting support service sponsored by 
the the Internet Society New York Chapter (ISOC-NY) - Big thanks to our 
July 2024 funder Vint Cerf ***





-- 
--------------------------------------
Joly MacFie? +12185659365
--------------------------------------
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
To view your Internet Society subscriptions or unsubscribe, log into your member profile at https://community.internetsociety.org/, select your profile picture and then My Groups. Select the Edit icon for Internet Policy and check the Leave Group box, then Save. Changes may take up to 3 hours to take effect.
-
View the Internet Society Code of Conduct: https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/


From gbuday.irtf at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 04:47:26 2024
From: gbuday.irtf at gmail.com (Gergely Buday)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 12:47:26 +0100
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
Message-ID: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>

Hi there,

when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?

Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
economically?

Yours

- Gergely


From vint at google.com  Sun Jul 21 11:33:24 2024
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 14:33:24 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>

around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had inklings as
early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage its
development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some attention to
Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
general posture of the day at that time.

v


On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
>
> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
> economically?
>
> Yours
>
> - Gergely
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice


From bpurvy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 11:48:12 2024
From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 11:48:12 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>

I recall lots of talk about "the information superhighway," but it usually
wasn't very specific.

On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 11:33?AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had inklings as
> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage its
> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some attention to
> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
> general posture of the day at that time.
>
> v
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > Hi there,
> >
> > when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
> >
> > Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
> > radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
> > concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
> > economically?
> >
> > Yours
> >
> > - Gergely
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
>
>
> --
> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> Vint Cerf
> Google, LLC
> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> +1 (571) 213 1346
>
>
> until further notice
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From karl at iwl.com  Sun Jul 21 12:31:13 2024
From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 12:31:13 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c6fd64e0-e4fd-4551-8560-eb750ca868d6@iwl.com>

The US government is a big animal, actually a herd of big animals, so 
awareness of, and interest in, non-circuit switched network technology 
arose in different places, at different times, and at different rates. 
(There was, of course, a lot of recognition of circuit switched networks.)

In 1978 I was thinking of joining the office of the Legal Advisor at the 
US State Dept or the chief counsel's office at then rather new NTIA.  At 
the State Dept there was essentially no recognition of the nascent 
networks and their underlying packet switching technologies.  But over 
at NTIA there were a very few of us - two of us were from SDC - who had 
had contact with the various network systems that were then starting to 
recognize the need for something with fewer connectivity lumps and 
greater extent.

At that time my head was down in the world of computer/database privacy 
and international data flows of personally identifiable information 
rather than in the nuts and bolts of networking and security that I had 
worked on at SDC.  (I had been working on computer privacy for quite a 
while - somewhere in my paper archives are letters that Senator Sam 
Ervin and I had exchanged - during the time he was chairing the 
Watergate hearings! - about US privacy policy.)

During the 1970s at SDC I mostly worked on military related networks 
(mostly classified and thus not well known.)  It was pretty clear that 
even from the early 1970s that the US military was aware of the value of 
wide-scale connectivity, not just between stationary computer centers 
but also on a tactical, mobile, in-the-field basis.  (During that time 
we worked with the US Marines on what would today be called a mesh 
network - Dave Kaufman and I joked that our backpack-mounted nodes were 
of such size and weight that only the bigger Marines would be able to 
haul the gear - I couldn't lift it.)

In the mid 1980's when I worked on the magnetic confinement fusion (MFE) 
project out at the Livermore Labs we had an ad hoc network that was 
beginning to interconnect with other academic and research networks.  It 
was all very klunky and duct-tape-and-bailing-wire, but the value was 
well recognized.

In those years (mid 1980's) USENET was growing like wildfire and showing 
people, many of whom were in government positions, the value of having 
network based bapplications like email and netnews.  There were many 
people with feet in both the evolving Internet and in Usenet; the two 
networks intellectually pollenized one another, particularly at the 
application layer.

To my mind one of the most important inflection points of US government 
interest in something resembling today's Internet was the Air Force's 
ULANA procurement.  They wanted commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) 
networking gear that they could just hook up and go.  That procurement 
pushed a lot of energy into coercing vendors to actually assure 
interoperability.  Those vendors were mostly small at that time - for 
instance, Cisco was still a garage operation.  (Our group, TRW, lead by 
Geoff Baehr and David Kaufman, won the bid, but AT&T protested and the 
entire procurement crumbled as a result and never was actually awarded. 
But the concept of real interoperability had taken root.)

	--karl--

On 7/21/24 4:47 AM, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:

> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
> 
> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
> economically?


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 13:30:21 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 08:30:21 +1200
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e9019e5a-615d-47f5-bc5f-7bbb9382db8e@gmail.com>

There was a lot of overlap with the political interest in high performance
computing. In particular, the US High-Performance Computing Act of 1991
(a.k.a. The Gore Bill) has a whole section on "National Research and
Education Network".

A good reference is "Building Information Infrastructure", Brian Kahin (editor),
ISBN 0-390-03083X-X, 1992.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 22-Jul-24 06:48, Bob Purvy via Internet-history wrote:
> I recall lots of talk about "the information superhighway," but it usually
> wasn't very specific.
> 
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 11:33?AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had inklings as
>> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
>> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage its
>> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some attention to
>> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
>> general posture of the day at that time.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
>>>
>>> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
>>> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
>>> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
>>> economically?
>>>
>>> Yours
>>>
>>> - Gergely
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>> Vint Cerf
>> Google, LLC
>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>
>>
>> until further notice
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>

From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Sun Jul 21 13:46:32 2024
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 16:46:32 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <e9019e5a-615d-47f5-bc5f-7bbb9382db8e@gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9019e5a-615d-47f5-bc5f-7bbb9382db8e@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2632714-4d7a-5e8c-68c6-ef4884e878f6@meetinghouse.net>

One thing to remember:? Sen. Al Gore SENIOR was a key proponent of the 
Interstate Highway System.? Sen. Gore Jr., followed in his footsteps in 
selling an "Information Superhighway" to the nation.

Also... Brian's book is great.? (And not just because I wrote one of the 
chapters. :-)

Miles

Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> There was a lot of overlap with the political interest in high 
> performance
> computing. In particular, the US High-Performance Computing Act of 1991
> (a.k.a. The Gore Bill) has a whole section on "National Research and
> Education Network".
>
> A good reference is "Building Information Infrastructure", Brian Kahin 
> (editor),
> ISBN 0-390-03083X-X, 1992.
>
> Regards
> ?? Brian Carpenter
>
> On 22-Jul-24 06:48, Bob Purvy via Internet-history wrote:
>> I recall lots of talk about "the information superhighway," but it 
>> usually
>> wasn't very specific.
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 11:33?AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had 
>>> inklings as
>>> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
>>> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage 
>>> its
>>> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some 
>>> attention to
>>> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
>>> general posture of the day at that time.
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi there,
>>>>
>>>> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
>>>>
>>>> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on 
>>>> shortwave
>>>> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar 
>>>> thoughts
>>>> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
>>>> economically?
>>>>
>>>> Yours
>>>>
>>>> - Gergely
>>>> -- 
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>> Vint Cerf
>>> Google, LLC
>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>
>>>
>>> until further notice
>>> -- 
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From lk at cs.ucla.edu  Sun Jul 21 14:16:13 2024
From: lk at cs.ucla.edu (Leonard Kleinrock)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 14:16:13 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <c2632714-4d7a-5e8c-68c6-ef4884e878f6@meetinghouse.net>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9019e5a-615d-47f5-bc5f-7bbb9382db8e@gmail.com>
 <c2632714-4d7a-5e8c-68c6-ef4884e878f6@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <A79F6FD2-677A-46DF-B90C-82E28BAFDC2D@cs.ucla.edu>

Good point. Al Gore Jr. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore> promoted all things Internet for many years while in congress (1977-1993) and during that time, as noted, he introduced and championed the High Performance Computing Act of 1991 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Performance_Computing_Act_of_1991> after hearing a presentation by yours truly in 1988 of the CSTB report ?Toward a National Research Network?? <https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/10334/chapter/1> ; if you look at the list of committee members of this1988 report, you will find a number of the same folks who are on this mailing list!
Len




> On Jul 21, 2024, at 1:46?PM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> One thing to remember:  Sen. Al Gore SENIOR was a key proponent of the Interstate Highway System.  Sen. Gore Jr., followed in his footsteps in selling an "Information Superhighway" to the nation.
> 
> Also... Brian's book is great.  (And not just because I wrote one of the chapters. :-)
> 
> Miles
> 
> Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>> There was a lot of overlap with the political interest in high performance
>> computing. In particular, the US High-Performance Computing Act of 1991
>> (a.k.a. The Gore Bill) has a whole section on "National Research and
>> Education Network".
>> 
>> A good reference is "Building Information Infrastructure", Brian Kahin (editor),
>> ISBN 0-390-03083X-X, 1992.
>> 
>> Regards
>>    Brian Carpenter
>> 
>> On 22-Jul-24 06:48, Bob Purvy via Internet-history wrote:
>>> I recall lots of talk about "the information superhighway," but it usually
>>> wasn't very specific.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 11:33?AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had inklings as
>>>> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
>>>> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage its
>>>> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some attention to
>>>> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
>>>> general posture of the day at that time.
>>>> 
>>>> v
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Hi there,
>>>>> 
>>>>> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
>>>>> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
>>>>> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
>>>>> economically?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Yours
>>>>> 
>>>>> - Gergely
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
>>>> Vint Cerf
>>>> Google, LLC
>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> until further notice
>>>> -- 
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
> 
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From bpurvy at gmail.com  Sun Jul 21 14:49:25 2024
From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 14:49:25 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <A79F6FD2-677A-46DF-B90C-82E28BAFDC2D@cs.ucla.edu>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9019e5a-615d-47f5-bc5f-7bbb9382db8e@gmail.com>
 <c2632714-4d7a-5e8c-68c6-ef4884e878f6@meetinghouse.net>
 <A79F6FD2-677A-46DF-B90C-82E28BAFDC2D@cs.ucla.edu>
Message-ID: <CAFq6nVF-oTyGBNrhquqvkJ3RefdjY+0UqFUfCtoPjbXEht90aA@mail.gmail.com>

digging a little deeper:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/senate-bill/272

Sets forth Network requirements, including: (1) fostering and maintaining
competition and private sector investment in high-speed data networking
within the telecommunications industry; (2) promoting the development of
commercial data communications and telecommunications standards; (3)
providing security, including protecting intellectual property rights; (4)
developing accounting mechanisms allowing users to be charged for the use
of copyrighted materials; and (5) purchasing standard commercial
transmission and network services from vendors whenever feasible.

(3) and (4) seem to have been bypassed back then.

On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 2:16?PM Leonard Kleinrock via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Good point. Al Gore Jr. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore> promoted
> all things Internet for many years while in congress (1977-1993) and during
> that time, as noted, he introduced and championed the High Performance
> Computing Act of 1991 <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Performance_Computing_Act_of_1991>
> after hearing a presentation by yours truly in 1988 of the CSTB report
> ?Toward a National Research Network?  <
> https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/10334/chapter/1> ; if you look at
> the list of committee members of this1988 report, you will find a number of
> the same folks who are on this mailing list!
> Len
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 21, 2024, at 1:46?PM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > One thing to remember:  Sen. Al Gore SENIOR was a key proponent of the
> Interstate Highway System.  Sen. Gore Jr., followed in his footsteps in
> selling an "Information Superhighway" to the nation.
> >
> > Also... Brian's book is great.  (And not just because I wrote one of the
> chapters. :-)
> >
> > Miles
> >
> > Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> >> There was a lot of overlap with the political interest in high
> performance
> >> computing. In particular, the US High-Performance Computing Act of 1991
> >> (a.k.a. The Gore Bill) has a whole section on "National Research and
> >> Education Network".
> >>
> >> A good reference is "Building Information Infrastructure", Brian Kahin
> (editor),
> >> ISBN 0-390-03083X-X, 1992.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>    Brian Carpenter
> >>
> >> On 22-Jul-24 06:48, Bob Purvy via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> I recall lots of talk about "the information superhighway," but it
> usually
> >>> wasn't very specific.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 11:33?AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had
> inklings as
> >>>> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
> >>>> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage
> its
> >>>> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some
> attention to
> >>>> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
> >>>> general posture of the day at that time.
> >>>>
> >>>> v
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
> >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi there,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on
> shortwave
> >>>>> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar
> thoughts
> >>>>> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
> >>>>> economically?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yours
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Gergely
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> >>>> Vint Cerf
> >>>> Google, LLC
> >>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
> >>>> Reston, VA 20190
> >>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> until further notice
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>
> >
> >
> > --
> > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> > In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
> >
> > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> > In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> > nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Sun Jul 21 14:53:41 2024
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 14:53:41 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0EE63A0F-EA41-497A-8E25-9C77F585EA52@icloud.com>

In addition to what?s already been posted, you might look at some of the US Congressional Hearings and Office of Science and Technology Policy reports from the 1980s such as [1] and [2].

?gregbo

[1] https://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/CGB%20Files/FCCSET%20Research%20and%20Development%20Strategy%20for%20High%20Perf%20Com%20871120%20c.pdf
[2] https://books.google.com/books?id=yLLuZ61d9xAC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false

> On Jul 21, 2024, at 4:47?AM, Gergely Buday via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi there,
> 
> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
> 
> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
> economically?
> 
> Yours
> 
> - Gergely
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From nigel at channelisles.net  Sun Jul 21 17:31:02 2024
From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts MTA3)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 01:31:02 +0100
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <25d19ee6-ad6a-4f2d-961b-2ea41b457c4f@channelisles.net>

I attended the World Wide Web conference in Boston in 1995 and in Paris 
in 1996.

There was a lot of concern at the time about regulation of content by 
legislation - the Communications Decency Act.


On 7/21/24 19:33, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had inklings as
> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and encourage its
> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some attention to
> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation was the
> general posture of the day at that time.
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi there,
>>
>> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
>>
>> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
>> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
>> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
>> economically?
>>
>> Yours
>>
>> - Gergely
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
> 
> 



From crypto at glassblower.info  Sun Jul 21 18:12:56 2024
From: crypto at glassblower.info (Tony Patti)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 21:12:56 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAFq6nVF-oTyGBNrhquqvkJ3RefdjY+0UqFUfCtoPjbXEht90aA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggdtEAkwPyapZgf6_PwFuQO2yso5+VpRJqrcVzQsFwh3wA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAFq6nVFQFWceDeDiCAE4TQoMzBdisaOxH4C7w38hrPvZ3N9g3A@mail.gmail.com>
 <e9019e5a-615d-47f5-bc5f-7bbb9382db8e@gmail.com>
 <c2632714-4d7a-5e8c-68c6-ef4884e878f6@meetinghouse.net>
 <A79F6FD2-677A-46DF-B90C-82E28BAFDC2D@cs.ucla.edu>
 <CAFq6nVF-oTyGBNrhquqvkJ3RefdjY+0UqFUfCtoPjbXEht90aA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <264301dadbd4$490b54c0$db21fe40$@glassblower.info>

I would suggest: not just security bypassed, PRIVACY bypassed also.  

See page 6 of the PDF at https://www.congress.gov/102/statute/STATUTE-105/STATUTE-105-Pg1594.pdf which has ?101(g)(6) containing "appropriate policies to ensure the security of resources available on the Network and to protect the privacy of users of networks."

That was written in 1991, which was also the year that Phil Zimmermann developed PGP.
1991 was before the Clipper Chip (in 1993) which started the first Crypto War.
https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/06/history_of_the_.html

Tony Patti
(ARPAnet NIC IDENT "TP4")

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> On Behalf Of Bob Purvy via Internet-history
Sent: Sunday, July 21, 2024 5:49 PM
To: Leonard Kleinrock <lk at cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] Politics behind the Internet

digging a little deeper:
https://www.congress.gov/bill/102nd-congress/senate-bill/272

Sets forth Network requirements, including: (1) fostering and maintaining competition and private sector investment in high-speed data networking within the telecommunications industry; (2) promoting the development of commercial data communications and telecommunications standards; (3) providing security, including protecting intellectual property rights; (4) developing accounting mechanisms allowing users to be charged for the use of copyrighted materials; and (5) purchasing standard commercial transmission and network services from vendors whenever feasible.

(3) and (4) seem to have been bypassed back then.

On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 2:16?PM Leonard Kleinrock via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Good point. Al Gore Jr. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Gore> 
> promoted all things Internet for many years while in congress 
> (1977-1993) and during that time, as noted, he introduced and 
> championed the High Performance Computing Act of 1991 < 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Performance_Computing_Act_of_1991>
> after hearing a presentation by yours truly in 1988 of the CSTB report 
> ?Toward a National Research Network?  < 
> https://nap.nationalacademies.org/read/10334/chapter/1> ; if you look 
> at the list of committee members of this1988 report, you will find a 
> number of the same folks who are on this mailing list!
> Len
>
>
>
>
> > On Jul 21, 2024, at 1:46?PM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > One thing to remember:  Sen. Al Gore SENIOR was a key proponent of 
> > the
> Interstate Highway System.  Sen. Gore Jr., followed in his footsteps 
> in selling an "Information Superhighway" to the nation.
> >
> > Also... Brian's book is great.  (And not just because I wrote one of 
> > the
> chapters. :-)
> >
> > Miles
> >
> > Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> >> There was a lot of overlap with the political interest in high
> performance
> >> computing. In particular, the US High-Performance Computing Act of 
> >> 1991 (a.k.a. The Gore Bill) has a whole section on "National 
> >> Research and Education Network".
> >>
> >> A good reference is "Building Information Infrastructure", Brian 
> >> Kahin
> (editor),
> >> ISBN 0-390-03083X-X, 1992.
> >>
> >> Regards
> >>    Brian Carpenter
> >>
> >> On 22-Jul-24 06:48, Bob Purvy via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> I recall lots of talk about "the information superhighway," but it
> usually
> >>> wasn't very specific.
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 11:33?AM Vint Cerf via Internet-history < 
> >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> around 1996, Congress started to wake up to Internet - it had
> inklings as
> >>>> early as 1992 as domain names were offered for a price.
> >>>> Then Senator Gore understood Internet as early as 1986 and 
> >>>> encourage
> its
> >>>> development. By 1996 the revision of the Telecom Act paid some
> attention to
> >>>> Internet because the WWW was booming. Limited or no regulation 
> >>>> was the general posture of the day at that time.
> >>>>
> >>>> v
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:47?AM Gergely Buday via 
> >>>> Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi there,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on
> shortwave
> >>>>> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar
> thoughts
> >>>>> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom 
> >>>>> politically and economically?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yours
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Gergely
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org 
> >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
> >>>> Vint Cerf
> >>>> Google, LLC
> >>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190
> >>>> +1 (571) 213 1346
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> until further notice
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>>>
> >
> >
> > --
> > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> > In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
> >
> > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> > In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> > nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From jack at 3kitty.org  Sun Jul 21 18:59:32 2024
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 18:59:32 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>

On 7/21/24 04:47, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> when the American Congress realised the importance of the Internet?
>
> Back in the eighties we were listening the Radio Free Europe on shortwave
> radios. Congress supported that financially. Did it have similar thoughts
> concerning the Internet, that it would spread freedom politically and
> economically?
>
> Yours
>
> - Gergely

My slightly different perspective, all IIRC:

The US Congress has realized the importance of technology since Sputnik 
beat the US to space in the 50s.?? That triggered the formation of ARPA, 
and led to the funding of the ARPANET, and then much of the early work 
on what now is the Internet.

During that era with the ARPANET, the importance of communications was 
well understood.?? But the focus of those efforts was all inward.?? 
Communications was useful as an infrastructure for government-sponsored 
research.?? Users of the ARPANET were limited to people who were working 
on some government contract.

The same constraint applied during the early days of the Internet and 
TCP/IP, and as the ARPANET evolved into the Defense Data Network.?? 
Again the communications infrastructure being built was intended for use 
by government systems, specifically Department of Defense and a few 
European allies.

IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or 
economically.? Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable 
through the networks.?? All users were internal, working on or for 
government projects.

With Al Gore's involvement and the entry of the National Science 
Foundation (NSF), the Internet expanded beyond its original military 
deployment into the broader realm of education and research.?? It was 
however still focussed inwards, building a communications infrastructure 
for use by scientific users, using the tchnology already proven by the 
military research.

At about that time, as KarlA noted, government (US at least) focus 
shifted to embrace "COTS" - Commercial Off The Shelf - solutions. IIRC 
this was somewhat driven by the stories at the time of "$600 hammers" 
and the like.? Instead of having custom-built, and therefore expensive, 
systems, the US government wanted to simply purchase commercial products.

NSF funded a lot of small networks which could be linked together using 
TCP technology.? However, they introduced a new constraint which the 
chosen contractors had to follow.?? Funding would be provided to build 
and operate a network, but only for a few years. Then the network would 
have to become self-sufficient.?? It might continue to operate providing 
service to its scientific users, but it would be funded by charges to 
those users' budgets, in a competitive environment.

That motivated the creation of the "ISP" (Internet Service Provider) 
industry, and the mechanisms for offering Internet service as a product 
available to the masses.?? NSF was "kickstarting" networks, but forcing 
them to figure out how to become self-sufficient. A project would buy 
test tubes from their lab supplier, and Internet services from their 
chosen ISP.

At the same time, commercial startups and their products were becoming 
available to supply that COTS demand.? Cisco Systems is probably the one 
people remember most.

In addition, all sorts of companies and organizations were defining, 
building, and deploying their own solutions for a communications 
infrastructure.? This lead to SNA, DECNET, Netware, Banyan, Xerox, OSI, 
and more I've probably forgotten.?? All of these competed to be the 
chosen "winner" and supply their technology to the world.? This led to 
concepts such as the "Global LAN", and the creation of "multiprotocol 
routers" that enabled organizations to build their own "intranets" for 
their own internal use.

Although "the Internet" was still growing, there were many other 
"intranets" taking advantage of the plethora of communications 
technologies available at the time.? TCP was usually there, but it was 
not alone.? Such "multiprotocol intranets" were a nightmare to build and 
operate.?? I personally was involved in one of them, with network nodes 
in more than 100 countries.?? Running such a network was a bit like the 
frenzied circus performers who keep lots of plates spinning on top of 
sticks.

Very little if any (that I knew about) of all that was funded by the US 
government, except as a customer for its own internal users in a wide 
range of different administrations and agencies.

Sometime in the early 1990s, corporations struggling with multiprotocol 
environments experimented to find solutions and rapidly coalesced into 
the one technology that was pervasive, seemed to work, and had a ready 
supply of technical expertise coming out of the universities' pipeline.? 
TCP won the battle and multiprotocol systems are likely becoming if not 
already extinct.

There still wasn't much of an audience in the general public.? Some 
early adopters could participate by dialup, but the only function of 
much interest to the public was electronic mail.

Then the Web happened.

Through the 90s, the Internet, using the Web mechanisms, became the 
communications infrastructure for the general public, and spread 
throughout the world.? Electronic Commerce, Social Media, and general 
availability of all kinds of information created the public 
infrastructure for all sorts of public activities - good and bad.

AFAIK, the US government had little involvement in funding that 
transition.?? It was however a user, with traditional government 
services to the public becoming accessible by using the Internet and the 
Web mechanisms.

One of Congress' thoughts might have been to use the Internet as a 
mechanism to "spread freedom", but I at least don't remember anything 
specific during the pre-Web era.? It wasn't until the Web brought the 
Internet to the public that there was an audience available for such things.

I'm not sure Congress, or anyone for that matter, even now realizes the 
importance of the Internet.?? Some historian with expertise in 
government and politics would probably know more.

Hope this helps,
Jack Haverty

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 665 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20240721/f21dfd64/attachment.asc>

From craig at tereschau.net  Sun Jul 21 19:14:26 2024
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 20:14:26 -0600
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>
>
> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
> government projects.
>
>
I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't all
inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science programs in
the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of providing
email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was set
up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by 1986,
over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on CSNET, to
which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the US
were on ARPANET or CSNET.

Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and research
in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
could work.

Craig

-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From jack at 3kitty.org  Sun Jul 21 19:38:29 2024
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 19:38:29 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <061737a2-17b3-418d-b302-8c325b6b35a3@3kitty.org>

You're right.? I had forgotten about CSNET.

But even in CSNET the focus was internal - not necessarily on government 
projects, but on whatever projects the computer science departments were 
doing.? The focus was inward within the community, rather than outward 
to the general public.? I could have said that better....

Jack

On 7/21/24 19:14, Craig Partridge wrote:
>
>
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history 
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>
>
>     IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>     economically.? Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>     through the networks.?? All users were internal, working on or for
>     government projects.
>
>
> I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't 
> all inward focused on ARPA funded folks.? By 1980, computer science 
> programs in the United States noticed that departments that had 
> ARPANET access were experiencing greater research success, in part 
> because it was easier to collaborate with other researchers.? This led 
> to the notion of providing email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the 
> Internet via CSNET, which was set up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 
> 1981.? Broadly, that worked -- by 1986, over 150 universities and 
> research labs (such as HP Labs) were on CSNET, to which you have to 
> add the many universities directly on ARPANET.? Essentially, any top 
> 100 and most top 200 research universities in the US were on ARPANET 
> or CSNET.
>
> Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and 
> research in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed 
> how that could work.
>
> Craig
>
> -- 
> *****
> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities 
> and mailing lists.

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 665 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20240721/3eac8979/attachment.asc>

From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sun Jul 21 19:45:44 2024
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2024 19:45:44 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <061737a2-17b3-418d-b302-8c325b6b35a3@3kitty.org>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <061737a2-17b3-418d-b302-8c325b6b35a3@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <6a62bd49-5181-4629-90c9-d0f265beb510@dcrocker.net>

On 7/21/2024 7:38 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> You're right.? I had forgotten about CSNET.
>
> But even in CSNET the focus was internal - not necessarily on 
> government projects, but on whatever projects the computer science 
> departments were doing.

I've classed CSNet as market research for NSFNet.? From my own 
involvement, I don't think that was the intent from the start, but I 
think that its considerable success demonstrated the benefit of wider 
connectivity, that there was quite a lot of utility in very modest 
connectivity, and that a model of providing only startup-funding all 
worked quite well.

NSFNet, then was a scaling exercise, supporting both the learning and 
engineering needed to make the scaling work.

As for the officially constrained scope of the customer base, this is 
true.? Only CS departments were allowed to use the access.? No one else 
on the campus or organization could... oh, wait...

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net
mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social



From sob at sobco.com  Mon Jul 22 03:42:57 2024
From: sob at sobco.com (Scott Bradner)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 06:42:57 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <6a62bd49-5181-4629-90c9-d0f265beb510@dcrocker.net>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <061737a2-17b3-418d-b302-8c325b6b35a3@3kitty.org>
 <6a62bd49-5181-4629-90c9-d0f265beb510@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <8588D95B-F59A-4CCC-B71E-C60355242B94@sobco.com>



> On Jul 21, 2024, at 10:45?PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> As for the officially constrained scope of the customer base, this is true.  Only CS departments were allowed to use the access.  No one else on the campus or organization could... oh, wait...

for ARPANET sites - this all changed when CSNET came in - everyone at the institution could use the net for email 

I remember removing the filters when Harvard joined CSNET (using the ARPANET for connectivity)

Scott

ps - this event is a section in my book Forks in the Digital Road - 
https://global.oup.com/academic/product/forks-in-the-digital-road-9780197617779?cc=us&lang=en& 

From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Mon Jul 22 07:09:06 2024
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 10:09:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>

Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>>
>> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
>> government projects.
>>
>>
> I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't all
> inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science programs in
> the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
> experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
> collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of providing
> email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was set
> up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by 1986,
> over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on CSNET, to
> which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
> Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the US
> were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>
> Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and research
> in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
> could work.
>
The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the 
beginning.? The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for 
researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications 
budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building 
campus networks.? Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their 
colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and 
DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program 
managers involved did something very unlike government program managers 
- they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms 
(and they let their users design and build the various networks).? 
Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and 
found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity 
- if only to email with potential employers.

Barry Shein set up the World.? I started reselling TELENET services.? 
NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to 
"government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a 
microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus 
network).

And it all just happened.

And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of 
walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering 
communication & collaboration.? And now we find ourselves in today's 
mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core 
values & virtues of the net.

Sigh...

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From bpurvy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 22 07:46:03 2024
From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 07:46:03 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>

> The program
managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
- they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
(and they let their users design and build the various networks).

... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
protocols, but did not.

On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
> >> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
> >> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
> >> government projects.
> >>
> >>
> > I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
> all
> > inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science programs
> in
> > the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
> > experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
> > collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of providing
> > email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
> set
> > up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by
> 1986,
> > over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on CSNET,
> to
> > which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
> > Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the US
> > were on ARPANET or CSNET.
> >
> > Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and research
> > in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
> > could work.
> >
> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
> beginning.  The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
> campus networks.  Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
> - if only to email with potential employers.
>
> Barry Shein set up the World.  I started reselling TELENET services.
> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
> network).
>
> And it all just happened.
>
> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
> communication & collaboration.  And now we find ourselves in today's
> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
> values & virtues of the net.
>
> Sigh...
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Mon Jul 22 08:22:52 2024
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 11:22:52 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>

Bob Purvy wrote:
> > The program
> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>
> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a 
> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the 
> people on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in 
> the government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal 
> bureaucratic protocols, but did not.
Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the 
folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.

Cheers,

Miles




>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history 
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org 
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>
>     Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>     > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     >>
>     >> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>     >> economically.? Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>     >> through the networks.? ?All users were internal, working on or for
>     >> government projects.
>     >>
>     >>
>     > I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it
>     wasn't all
>     > inward focused on ARPA funded folks.? By 1980, computer science
>     programs in
>     > the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET
>     access were
>     > experiencing greater research success, in part because it was
>     easier to
>     > collaborate with other researchers.? This led to the notion of
>     providing
>     > email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET,
>     which was set
>     > up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.? Broadly, that worked
>     -- by 1986,
>     > over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were
>     on CSNET, to
>     > which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>     > Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities
>     in the US
>     > were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>     >
>     > Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>     research
>     > in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed
>     how that
>     > could work.
>     >
>     The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>     beginning.? The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>     researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>     budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start
>     building
>     campus networks.? Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value
>     their
>     colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF,
>     and
>     DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>     managers involved did something very unlike government program
>     managers
>     - they connected their networks instead of building their own
>     fiefdoms
>     (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>     Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged
>     in, and
>     found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed
>     connectivity
>     - if only to email with potential employers.
>
>     Barry Shein set up the World.? I started reselling TELENET services.
>     NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>     "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>     microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their
>     campus
>     network).
>
>     And it all just happened.
>
>     And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>     walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>     communication & collaboration.? And now we find ourselves in today's
>     mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>     values & virtues of the net.
>
>     Sigh...
>
>     Miles Fidelman
>
>     -- 
>     In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>     In practice, there is.? .... Yogi Berra
>
>     Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>     Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>     In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>     nothing works and no one knows why.? ... unknown
>
>     -- 
>     Internet-history mailing list
>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From bpurvy at gmail.com  Mon Jul 22 08:38:29 2024
From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 08:38:29 -0700
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>

> most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the folks at DOE &
NASA, not so much.

My point exactly. The DOE & NASA folks could have smothered it all in
bureaucratic BS, but they didn't.

On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 8:25?AM Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
wrote:

> Bob Purvy wrote:
>
> > The program
> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>
> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
> on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
> government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
> protocols, but did not.
>
> Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the
> folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Miles
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>> >> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>> >> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
>> >> government projects.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
>> all
>> > inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science
>> programs in
>> > the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
>> > experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
>> > collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of providing
>> > email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
>> set
>> > up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by
>> 1986,
>> > over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on
>> CSNET, to
>> > which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>> > Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the
>> US
>> > were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>> >
>> > Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>> research
>> > in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
>> > could work.
>> >
>> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>> beginning.  The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
>> campus networks.  Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
>> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
>> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
>> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
>> - if only to email with potential employers.
>>
>> Barry Shein set up the World.  I started reselling TELENET services.
>> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
>> network).
>>
>> And it all just happened.
>>
>> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>> communication & collaboration.  And now we find ourselves in today's
>> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>> values & virtues of the net.
>>
>> Sigh...
>>
>> Miles Fidelman
>>
>> --
>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>
>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>
>


From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 09:45:58 2024
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 16:45:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1148464765.116501.1721666758873@mail.yahoo.com>

 Barry Leiner was back as assistant director at NASA Ames (RIACS) in 1985.?
I think you have a spelling error. I believe you were thinking of Stephen Wolff.
barbara
    On Monday, July 22, 2024 at 08:39:03 AM PDT, Bob Purvy via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 > most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the folks at DOE &
NASA, not so much.

My point exactly. The DOE & NASA folks could have smothered it all in
bureaucratic BS, but they didn't.

On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 8:25?AM Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
wrote:

> Bob Purvy wrote:
>
> > The program
> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>
> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
> on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
> government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
> protocols, but did not.
>
> Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the
> folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Miles
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>> >> economically.? Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>> >> through the networks.? All users were internal, working on or for
>> >> government projects.
>> >>
>> >>
>> > I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
>> all
>> > inward focused on ARPA funded folks.? By 1980, computer science
>> programs in
>> > the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
>> > experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
>> > collaborate with other researchers.? This led to the notion of providing
>> > email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
>> set
>> > up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.? Broadly, that worked -- by
>> 1986,
>> > over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on
>> CSNET, to
>> > which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>> > Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the
>> US
>> > were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>> >
>> > Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>> research
>> > in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
>> > could work.
>> >
>> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>> beginning.? The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
>> campus networks.? Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
>> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
>> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
>> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
>> - if only to email with potential employers.
>>
>> Barry Shein set up the World.? I started reselling TELENET services.
>> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
>> network).
>>
>> And it all just happened.
>>
>> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>> communication & collaboration.? And now we find ourselves in today's
>> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>> values & virtues of the net.
>>
>> Sigh...
>>
>> Miles Fidelman
>>
>> --
>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> In practice, there is.? .... Yogi Berra
>>
>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>> nothing works and no one knows why.? ... unknown
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.? .... Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.? ... unknown
>
>
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From craig at tereschau.net  Mon Jul 22 10:38:03 2024
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 11:38:03 -0600
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4Ce6zD24e57QTW2_nEoovwGDfOffBqGog3unR8q8h+KPkw@mail.gmail.com>

You may or may not remember Milo Medin (later of @Home) in his role pushing
the NASA Science Internet.

Quite the reverse of bureaucratic BS -- rather bureaucratic leverage.  My
favorite one was c. 1990 -- Milo needed a single-mode fiber optic
connection to carry data from NASA Ames up the peninsula to, I think,
somewhere in Palo Alto.  Pac Bell's representatives didn't want to sell him
one and made various comments about how T3 could meet his needs.  So Milo
lost his patience and said something along the lines of "look, I'm the
Federal government, and I can run my own fiber up the railroad tracks.  I'm
giving you an opportunity to have me not do that".  PacBell caved quickly.

Craig

On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:38?AM Bob Purvy <bpurvy at gmail.com> wrote:

> > most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the folks at DOE
> & NASA, not so much.
>
> My point exactly. The DOE & NASA folks could have smothered it all in
> bureaucratic BS, but they didn't.
>
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 8:25?AM Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
> wrote:
>
>> Bob Purvy wrote:
>>
>> > The program
>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>
>> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
>> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
>> on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
>> government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
>> protocols, but did not.
>>
>> Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the
>> folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Miles
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>>> >> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>>> >> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
>>> >> government projects.
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> > I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
>>> all
>>> > inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science
>>> programs in
>>> > the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
>>> > experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
>>> > collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of
>>> providing
>>> > email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
>>> set
>>> > up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by
>>> 1986,
>>> > over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on
>>> CSNET, to
>>> > which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>>> > Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the
>>> US
>>> > were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>>> >
>>> > Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>>> research
>>> > in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
>>> > could work.
>>> >
>>> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>>> beginning.  The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>>> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>>> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
>>> campus networks.  Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
>>> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
>>> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
>>> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
>>> - if only to email with potential employers.
>>>
>>> Barry Shein set up the World.  I started reselling TELENET services.
>>> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>>> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>>> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
>>> network).
>>>
>>> And it all just happened.
>>>
>>> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>>> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>>> communication & collaboration.  And now we find ourselves in today's
>>> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>>> values & virtues of the net.
>>>
>>> Sigh...
>>>
>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>
>>> --
>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>
>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>
>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>
>>

-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Mon Jul 22 13:20:34 2024
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 20:20:34 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <1148464765.116501.1721666758873@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
 <1148464765.116501.1721666758873@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1450564641.3713286.1721679634230@mail.yahoo.com>

 Just tripped on this.
https://groups.csail.mit.edu/ana/A%20brief%20history%20of%20the%20internet%20-%20p22-leiner.pdf

Happy Reading!
barbara
    

From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Mon Jul 22 13:50:28 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 08:50:28 +1200
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <CAHQj4Ce6zD24e57QTW2_nEoovwGDfOffBqGog3unR8q8h+KPkw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQj4Ce6zD24e57QTW2_nEoovwGDfOffBqGog3unR8q8h+KPkw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14034610-6fd5-4af3-9084-3899e1ab9b2c@gmail.com>

On 23-Jul-24 05:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
> You may or may not remember Milo Medin (later of @Home) in his role pushing
> the NASA Science Internet.
> 
> Quite the reverse of bureaucratic BS -- rather bureaucratic leverage.  My
> favorite one was c. 1990 -- Milo needed a single-mode fiber optic
> connection to carry data from NASA Ames up the peninsula to, I think,
> somewhere in Palo Alto.  Pac Bell's representatives didn't want to sell him
> one and made various comments about how T3 could meet his needs.  So Milo
> lost his patience and said something along the lines of "look, I'm the
> Federal government, and I can run my own fiber up the railroad tracks.  I'm
> giving you an opportunity to have me not do that".  PacBell caved quickly.

That is *so* Milo, made me smile.

In both DoE and NASA there were very strong DECnet communities that showed the
way to go. When those two user communities started migrating away from VAX/VMS
to Ultrix and other varieties of Unix, they created a strong pull for TCP/IP
support. At least in the DoE case, this pull was strongly coordinated with the
European (and increasingly Asian) pull from the high energy physics people.

This is how I ended up in meetings with Milo at places like Lawrence Livermore
and even NASA Goddard, iirc.

    Brian

> 
> Craig
> 
> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:38?AM Bob Purvy <bpurvy at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>>> most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the folks at DOE
>> & NASA, not so much.
>>
>> My point exactly. The DOE & NASA folks could have smothered it all in
>> bureaucratic BS, but they didn't.
>>
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 8:25?AM Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Bob Purvy wrote:
>>>
>>>> The program
>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>>
>>> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
>>> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
>>> on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
>>> government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
>>> protocols, but did not.
>>>
>>> Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the
>>> folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Miles
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>>>>>> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>>>>>> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
>>>>>> government projects.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
>>>> all
>>>>> inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science
>>>> programs in
>>>>> the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
>>>>> experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
>>>>> collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of
>>>> providing
>>>>> email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
>>>> set
>>>>> up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by
>>>> 1986,
>>>>> over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on
>>>> CSNET, to
>>>>> which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>>>>> Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the
>>>> US
>>>>> were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>>>> research
>>>>> in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
>>>>> could work.
>>>>>
>>>> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>>>> beginning.  The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>>>> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>>>> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
>>>> campus networks.  Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
>>>> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
>>>> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>>> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
>>>> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
>>>> - if only to email with potential employers.
>>>>
>>>> Barry Shein set up the World.  I started reselling TELENET services.
>>>> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>>>> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>>>> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
>>>> network).
>>>>
>>>> And it all just happened.
>>>>
>>>> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>>>> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>>>> communication & collaboration.  And now we find ourselves in today's
>>>> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>>>> values & virtues of the net.
>>>>
>>>> Sigh...
>>>>
>>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>>
>>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>
>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>
>>>
> 

From sob at sobco.com  Mon Jul 22 15:24:39 2024
From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner)
Date: Mon, 22 Jul 2024 18:24:39 -0400
Subject: [ih] Politics behind the Internet
In-Reply-To: <14034610-6fd5-4af3-9084-3899e1ab9b2c@gmail.com>
References: <CA+HOLVDN2P=Bjw5UN8VBLGwT_HnvMtFDw41RF3sD9H=bk+790Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <167ae173-193d-4c2c-b1db-0e1c78670c9f@3kitty.org>
 <CAHQj4CcX9qkszH2xZX3OQnVh-JEz8fD5fHtUY4mBs3o6mmQ8_g@mail.gmail.com>
 <f27f349e-e76d-07ed-368e-78bf7de41f8a@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVHtL5yLF458nuBPcKF-3bho3m5qk5oVHoj=MWRZ_Cq+4w@mail.gmail.com>
 <a627318b-cc77-22d5-e9dd-19a876c336e3@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAFq6nVEK8ib6uNsu7s8c4d60C1Bq=E_iStEhfAkEJaSEjPYMww@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQj4Ce6zD24e57QTW2_nEoovwGDfOffBqGog3unR8q8h+KPkw@mail.gmail.com>
 <14034610-6fd5-4af3-9084-3899e1ab9b2c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <DADDE607-E9BC-458F-9A86-87E3D46A4BC1@sobco.com>

it helped that Dennis Jennings insisted that NSFNET would be TCP/IP-only

Scott

> On Jul 22, 2024, at 4:50?PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> On 23-Jul-24 05:38, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>> You may or may not remember Milo Medin (later of @Home) in his role pushing
>> the NASA Science Internet.
>> Quite the reverse of bureaucratic BS -- rather bureaucratic leverage.  My
>> favorite one was c. 1990 -- Milo needed a single-mode fiber optic
>> connection to carry data from NASA Ames up the peninsula to, I think,
>> somewhere in Palo Alto.  Pac Bell's representatives didn't want to sell him
>> one and made various comments about how T3 could meet his needs.  So Milo
>> lost his patience and said something along the lines of "look, I'm the
>> Federal government, and I can run my own fiber up the railroad tracks.  I'm
>> giving you an opportunity to have me not do that".  PacBell caved quickly.
> 
> That is *so* Milo, made me smile.
> 
> In both DoE and NASA there were very strong DECnet communities that showed the
> way to go. When those two user communities started migrating away from VAX/VMS
> to Ultrix and other varieties of Unix, they created a strong pull for TCP/IP
> support. At least in the DoE case, this pull was strongly coordinated with the
> European (and increasingly Asian) pull from the high energy physics people.
> 
> This is how I ended up in meetings with Milo at places like Lawrence Livermore
> and even NASA Goddard, iirc.
> 
>   Brian
> 
>> Craig
>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 9:38?AM Bob Purvy <bpurvy at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the folks at DOE
>>> & NASA, not so much.
>>> 
>>> My point exactly. The DOE & NASA folks could have smothered it all in
>>> bureaucratic BS, but they didn't.
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 8:25?AM Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> Bob Purvy wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> The program
>>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>>> 
>>>> ... and this is why, on the Internet Old Farts on Facebook, I gave a
>>>> shoutout to the admins who did this. Everyone knows the names of the people
>>>> on this list, and they should, but those anonymous managers in the
>>>> government COULD have done the safe thing and followed normal bureaucratic
>>>> protocols, but did not.
>>>> 
>>>> Well, I think most of us know Licklider, Taylor, Kahn, Cerf, Wolfe - the
>>>> folks at DOE & NASA, not so much.
>>>> 
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> 
>>>> Miles
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Mon, Jul 22, 2024 at 7:10?AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, Jul 21, 2024 at 7:59?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> IIRC, there was little talk of "spreading" either politically or
>>>>>>> economically.  Simply put, there was no relevant audience reachable
>>>>>>> through the networks.   All users were internal, working on or for
>>>>>>> government projects.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I broadly agree with Jack but will disagree in one element - it wasn't
>>>>> all
>>>>>> inward focused on ARPA funded folks.  By 1980, computer science
>>>>> programs in
>>>>>> the United States noticed that departments that had ARPANET access were
>>>>>> experiencing greater research success, in part because it was easier to
>>>>>> collaborate with other researchers.  This led to the notion of
>>>>> providing
>>>>>> email and (limited) TCP/IP access to the Internet via CSNET, which was
>>>>> set
>>>>>> up as a joint DARPA-NSF program in 1981.  Broadly, that worked -- by
>>>>> 1986,
>>>>>> over 150 universities and research labs (such as HP Labs) were on
>>>>> CSNET, to
>>>>>> which you have to add the many universities directly on ARPANET.
>>>>>> Essentially, any top 100 and most top 200 research universities in the
>>>>> US
>>>>>> were on ARPANET or CSNET.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Thus when NSF was looking for a way to supercharge computing and
>>>>> research
>>>>>> in STEM, with supercomputers and network access, CSNET showed how that
>>>>>> could work.
>>>>>> 
>>>>> The magic of the Internet, is that it grew by demand-pull, from the
>>>>> beginning.  The ARPANET was created to reduce comms costs for
>>>>> researchers - who were basically told to spend their communications
>>>>> budgets on ARPANET connectivity - forcing universities to start building
>>>>> campus networks.  Then non-ARPA-funded researchers saw the value their
>>>>> colleagues were getting from connectivity - and demanded that NSF, and
>>>>> DOE, and NASA, and ... build networks for them - and the program
>>>>> managers involved did something very unlike government program managers
>>>>> - they connected their networks instead of building their own fiefdoms
>>>>> (and they let their users design and build the various networks).
>>>>> Government contractors discovered that they needed to be plugged in, and
>>>>> found ways to get connectivity. Graduating students needed connectivity
>>>>> - if only to email with potential employers.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Barry Shein set up the World.  I started reselling TELENET services.
>>>>> NEARNET was built, largely with user funding - hence not subject to
>>>>> "government only" traffic restrictions (Prospect Hill allowed a
>>>>> microwave dish on their roof, in return for a connection to their campus
>>>>> network).
>>>>> 
>>>>> And it all just happened.
>>>>> 
>>>>> And then the marketeers stepped in, and started rebuilding a world of
>>>>> walled gardens, designed to capture markets, instead of fostering
>>>>> communication & collaboration.  And now we find ourselves in today's
>>>>> mess - where connectivity & interoperability are no longer the core
>>>>> values & virtues of the net.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Sigh...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Miles Fidelman
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>>> 
>>>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>>>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>>> 
>>>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>>>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>>>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>>>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>>> 
>>>> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From julf at Julf.com  Tue Jul 23 07:20:02 2024
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:20:02 +0200
Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?Russia_Jails_the_Father_of_Russia=E2=80=99s_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net?=
Message-ID: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>

As one of the people on the Finnish side of the RELCOM Moscow-Helsinki 
connection (it wasn't to a University, but to EUnet - that I was running 
at the time) I am really sorry and alarmed to hear what is happening to 
Alexey.

https://cepa.org/article/russia-jails-the-father-of-russias-internet/

	Julf


From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Jul 23 09:02:02 2024
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:02:02 +0200
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Russia_Jails_the_Father_of_Russia=E2=80=99s_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net?=
In-Reply-To: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:

 > As one of the people on the Finnish side of the RELCOM Moscow-Helsinki 
 > connection (it wasn't to a University, but to EUnet - that I was running 
 > at the time) I am really sorry and alarmed to hear what is happening to 
 > Alexey.
 >
 > https://cepa.org/article/russia-jails-the-father-of-russias-internet/

He has been under house arrest for a couple of years.

	jaap


From gbuday.irtf at gmail.com  Tue Jul 23 10:16:07 2024
From: gbuday.irtf at gmail.com (Gergely Buday)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 18:16:07 +0100
Subject: [ih] 
	=?utf-8?q?Russia_Jails_the_Father_of_Russia=E2=80=99s_Inter?=
	=?utf-8?q?net?=
In-Reply-To: <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
Message-ID: <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>

Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
Europe.

- Gergely

Jaap Akkerhuis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> ezt
?rta (id?pont: 2024. j?l. 23., Ke 17:02):

>  Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:
>
>  > As one of the people on the Finnish side of the RELCOM Moscow-Helsinki
>  > connection (it wasn't to a University, but to EUnet - that I was
> running
>  > at the time) I am really sorry and alarmed to hear what is happening to
>  > Alexey.
>  >
>  > https://cepa.org/article/russia-jails-the-father-of-russias-internet/
>
> He has been under house arrest for a couple of years.
>
>         jaap
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From ality at pbrane.org  Tue Jul 23 16:12:54 2024
From: ality at pbrane.org (Anthony Martin)
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2024 16:12:54 -0700
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Russia_Jails_the_Father_of_Russia=E2=80=99s_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net?=
In-Reply-To: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <ZqA49t63TVOSdxZY@alice>

Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> once said:
> As one of the people on the Finnish side of the RELCOM Moscow-Helsinki
> connection (it wasn't to a University, but to EUnet - that I was running at
> the time) I am really sorry and alarmed to hear what is happening to Alexey.
>
> https://cepa.org/article/russia-jails-the-father-of-russias-internet/

The son of a Russian oligarch whines about his father's prison
sentence for fraud on his U.S. government funded employer's
website. Cry me a river.

Cheers,
  Anthony


From ITHelp at isoc.org  Wed Jul 24 08:59:45 2024
From: ITHelp at isoc.org (IT Help)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 15:59:45 +0000
Subject: [ih] Upcoming Mailman maintenance window
Message-ID: <E55CD917-40EF-4AE3-8182-FC3956333380@isoc.org>

Dear Community,

Our vendor that hosts Mailman will be performing planned maintenance on their network this Thursday, 25 July.  There will be a brief network interruption during the maintenance window of 0700 to 1300 UTC.

IMPACT:
During this time, the Internet Society's Mailman email list processor will be unavailable. No other Internet Society services will be impacted.  Users will not be able to log in to the user portal at elists.isoc.org during this time.

Most mail transport systems will hold messages sent to the lists during the maintenance and re-try sending periodically until they are successful.  While there will be a delay in accepting and processing email list messages, no messages should be lost.


From lpress at csudh.edu  Wed Jul 24 10:32:35 2024
From: lpress at csudh.edu (Larry Press)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:32:35 +0000
Subject: [ih] 
 =?cp1250?q?Russia_Jails_the_Father_of_Russia=92s_Internet?=
In-Reply-To: <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BYAPR03MB3863DE9F6E4DED5F8072EF70C2AA2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

I was in Moscow for a conference and met and hung out with the Relcom staff a week before the 1991 Soviet coup attempt. We used Relcom to organize the conference and it played a key role in communication within Russia and between Russia and the outside world during the coup attempt. Here are some descriptions of  Relcom's role:

https://demos.ru/upload/soviet_coup_1991.pdf
https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/about-the-net/Usenet/soviet.coup
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/125319.125403.

We also compiled an archive of traffic during the coup attempt. It's at https://www.cs.oswego.edu/~dab/coup/.

I hung out with the Relcom staff at the time. One anecdote ? local calls were free in Moscow at the time and Alexey had a Teletype in his apartment that had been connected to Relcom for six months without hanging up the call.

________________________________
From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> on behalf of Gergely Buday via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2024 10:16 AM
To: Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap at nlnetlabs.nl>
Cc: Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Subject: Re: [ih] Russia Jails the Father of Russia?s Internet

Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
Europe.

- Gergely

Jaap Akkerhuis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> ezt
?rta (id?pont: 2024. j?l. 23., Ke 17:02):

>  Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:
>
>  > As one of the people on the Finnish side of the RELCOM Moscow-Helsinki
>  > connection (it wasn't to a University, but to EUnet - that I was
> running
>  > at the time) I am really sorry and alarmed to hear what is happening to
>  > Alexey.
>  >
>  > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cepa.org/article/russia-jails-the-father-of-russias-internet/__;!!P7nkOOY!r69oxJsK-amGcGIL13HTUvQfnqWnhBylVLsXpi098BnqIzmsJJBYnx32Mwevw2ALvziopnjf8c4DaoPc5Tn79Sh3c__CWIk$
>
> He has been under house arrest for a couple of years.
>
>         jaap
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!P7nkOOY!r69oxJsK-amGcGIL13HTUvQfnqWnhBylVLsXpi098BnqIzmsJJBYnx32Mwevw2ALvziopnjf8c4DaoPc5Tn79Sh3ExRtBzA$
>
--
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!P7nkOOY!r69oxJsK-amGcGIL13HTUvQfnqWnhBylVLsXpi098BnqIzmsJJBYnx32Mwevw2ALvziopnjf8c4DaoPc5Tn79Sh3ExRtBzA$


From julf at Julf.com  Wed Jul 24 11:45:07 2024
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 20:45:07 +0200
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Russia_Jails_the_Father_of_Russia=E2=80=99s_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net?=
In-Reply-To: <BYAPR03MB3863DE9F6E4DED5F8072EF70C2AA2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <BYAPR03MB3863DE9F6E4DED5F8072EF70C2AA2@BYAPR03MB3863.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <e937b069-d655-4fa0-a33c-93df8853b0d3@Julf.com>

I am not sure if your archive contains this:

https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/communications/logs/report-ussr-gorbatchev

I think the IRC channel was set up by my former colleague Harri
"Scofield" Hursti.

	Julf


On 24/07/2024 19:32, Larry Press via Internet-history wrote:
> I was in Moscow for a conference and met and hung out with the Relcom staff a week before the 1991 Soviet coup attempt. We used Relcom to organize the conference and it played a key role in communication within Russia and between Russia and the outside world during the coup attempt. Here are some descriptions of  Relcom's role:
> 
> https://demos.ru/upload/soviet_coup_1991.pdf
> https://www.ibiblio.org/pub/docs/about-the-net/Usenet/soviet.coup
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/125319.125403.
> 
> We also compiled an archive of traffic during the coup attempt. It's at https://www.cs.oswego.edu/~dab/coup/.
> 
> I hung out with the Relcom staff at the time. One anecdote ? local calls were free in Moscow at the time and Alexey had a Teletype in his apartment that had been connected to Relcom for six months without hanging up the call.
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Internet-history <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org> on behalf of Gergely Buday via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, July 23, 2024 10:16 AM
> To: Jaap Akkerhuis <jaap at nlnetlabs.nl>
> Cc: Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Russia Jails the Father of Russia?s Internet
> 
> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
> Europe.
> 
> - Gergely
> 
> Jaap Akkerhuis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> ezt
> ?rta (id?pont: 2024. j?l. 23., Ke 17:02):
> 
>>   Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:
>>
>>   > As one of the people on the Finnish side of the RELCOM Moscow-Helsinki
>>   > connection (it wasn't to a University, but to EUnet - that I was
>> running
>>   > at the time) I am really sorry and alarmed to hear what is happening to
>>   > Alexey.
>>   >
>>   > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cepa.org/article/russia-jails-the-father-of-russias-internet/__;!!P7nkOOY!r69oxJsK-amGcGIL13HTUvQfnqWnhBylVLsXpi098BnqIzmsJJBYnx32Mwevw2ALvziopnjf8c4DaoPc5Tn79Sh3c__CWIk$
>>
>> He has been under house arrest for a couple of years.
>>
>>          jaap
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!P7nkOOY!r69oxJsK-amGcGIL13HTUvQfnqWnhBylVLsXpi098BnqIzmsJJBYnx32Mwevw2ALvziopnjf8c4DaoPc5Tn79Sh3ExRtBzA$
>>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!P7nkOOY!r69oxJsK-amGcGIL13HTUvQfnqWnhBylVLsXpi098BnqIzmsJJBYnx32Mwevw2ALvziopnjf8c4DaoPc5Tn79Sh3ExRtBzA$


From jack at 3kitty.org  Wed Jul 24 13:23:19 2024
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:23:19 -0700
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>

On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
> Europe.
>
> - Gergely

I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet as 
it spread outside the US.

Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an 
Experiment".?? It might provide research insights, but the "real" next 
generation system was being aggressively developed by big corporations, 
perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based data 
communications infrastructure for the world - much as the telephone, 
telegraph, postal, and other such older global communications 
infrastructures had evolved.

The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of little 
relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards bodies, 
that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, as just 
an Experiment,? the Internet got little attention from corporate or 
political interests.?? It grew on its own and likely surprised a lot of 
people when it exploded and dominated, especially through the 1990s 
after the Web appeared and provided content and services interesting to 
the general public.

I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it had 
grown inside.?? But is that true?

So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political and 
commercial interests in other countries??? Was it viewed as a threat, or 
ignored as irrelevant?? In the US, IIRC a lot of big companies were 
blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the Internet and TCP.

But elsewhere?? For a country that "does not like the open Internet", 
when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?

Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?

Jack Haverty

-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 665 bytes
Desc: OpenPGP digital signature
URL: <http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20240724/358ec305/attachment.asc>

From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Wed Jul 24 13:42:40 2024
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:42:40 -0400
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>

As I understand it, it was the European Interop show.? All the OSI folks 
were promising "real soon now." Meanwhile, all the TCP/IP stuff was on 
display, up and running in the shownet, and available for sales.? So 
much for OSI.

Miles Fidelman


Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
>> Europe.
>>
>> - Gergely
>
> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet 
> as it spread outside the US.
>
> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an 
> Experiment".?? It might provide research insights, but the "real" next 
> generation system was being aggressively developed by big 
> corporations, perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based 
> data communications infrastructure for the world - much as the 
> telephone, telegraph, postal, and other such older global 
> communications infrastructures had evolved.
>
> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of 
> little relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards 
> bodies, that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, 
> as just an Experiment,? the Internet got little attention from 
> corporate or political interests.?? It grew on its own and likely 
> surprised a lot of people when it exploded and dominated, especially 
> through the 1990s after the Web appeared and provided content and 
> services interesting to the general public.
>
> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it 
> had grown inside.?? But is that true?
>
> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political 
> and commercial interests in other countries??? Was it viewed as a 
> threat, or ignored as irrelevant?? In the US, IIRC a lot of big 
> companies were blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the 
> Internet and TCP.
>
> But elsewhere?? For a country that "does not like the open Internet", 
> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
>
> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
>
> Jack Haverty
>
>


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From bpurvy at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 13:58:10 2024
From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 13:58:10 -0700
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <CAFq6nVFEcHiuSTHWgSJDYkLK-P_ZjR5b=E69YG8jm5kEgjnk7w@mail.gmail.com>

Dave Crocker (hi Dave!) said that, at Wollongong, they had a "TCP to OSI"
migration package, and almost all their European demand was for going in
the opposite direction.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:43?PM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> As I understand it, it was the European Interop show.  All the OSI folks
> were promising "real soon now." Meanwhile, all the TCP/IP stuff was on
> display, up and running in the shownet, and available for sales.  So
> much for OSI.
>
> Miles Fidelman
>
>
> Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> > On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
> >> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
> >> Europe.
> >>
> >> - Gergely
> >
> > I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet
> > as it spread outside the US.
> >
> > Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
> > Experiment".   It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
> > generation system was being aggressively developed by big
> > corporations, perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based
> > data communications infrastructure for the world - much as the
> > telephone, telegraph, postal, and other such older global
> > communications infrastructures had evolved.
> >
> > The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of
> > little relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards
> > bodies, that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus,
> > as just an Experiment,  the Internet got little attention from
> > corporate or political interests.   It grew on its own and likely
> > surprised a lot of people when it exploded and dominated, especially
> > through the 1990s after the Web appeared and provided content and
> > services interesting to the general public.
> >
> > I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it
> > had grown inside.   But is that true?
> >
> > So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political
> > and commercial interests in other countries?   Was it viewed as a
> > threat, or ignored as irrelevant?  In the US, IIRC a lot of big
> > companies were blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the
> > Internet and TCP.
> >
> > But elsewhere?  For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
> > when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
> >
> > Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
> >
> > Jack Haverty
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 14:00:29 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:00:29 +1200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <197104c1-ba73-4c11-b48f-70df9c8b9b4f@gmail.com>

Jack,

As far as Western Europe is concerned, I suggest the following reading list:

1. The official version: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/book/10.1002/9783527629336

2. The unofficial version: http://ictconsulting.ch/reports/European-Research-Internet-History.pdf

3. My version: https://sites.google.com/site/bcabrc/network-geeks-book

The short answer is that "the political and commercial interests" in W. Europe sneered at the Internet until about 1995, after which they either embraced it or went bust. Technically OSI networking was out for the count by 1990, but it took 5 years before the management and political layers noticed.

An unwritten story, I think, is that there was an enormous flowering in East Europe and Russia after the fall of Communism, i.e. from ~1990. See the awful news about Soldatov.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 25-Jul-24 08:23, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
>> Europe.
>>
>> - Gergely
> 
> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet as
> it spread outside the US.
> 
> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
> Experiment".?? It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
> generation system was being aggressively developed by big corporations,
> perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based data
> communications infrastructure for the world - much as the telephone,
> telegraph, postal, and other such older global communications
> infrastructures had evolved.
> 
> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of little
> relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards bodies,
> that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, as just
> an Experiment,? the Internet got little attention from corporate or
> political interests.?? It grew on its own and likely surprised a lot of
> people when it exploded and dominated, especially through the 1990s
> after the Web appeared and provided content and services interesting to
> the general public.
> 
> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it had
> grown inside.?? But is that true?
> 
> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political and
> commercial interests in other countries??? Was it viewed as a threat, or
> ignored as irrelevant?? In the US, IIRC a lot of big companies were
> blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the Internet and TCP.
> 
> But elsewhere?? For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
> 
> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
> 
> Jack Haverty
> 
> 

From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 14:01:54 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:01:54 +1200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>

The techies knew it 5 years before the management and pols.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 25-Jul-24 08:42, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
> As I understand it, it was the European Interop show.? All the OSI folks
> were promising "real soon now." Meanwhile, all the TCP/IP stuff was on
> display, up and running in the shownet, and available for sales.? So
> much for OSI.
> 
> Miles Fidelman
> 
> 
> Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
>>> Europe.
>>>
>>> - Gergely
>>
>> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet
>> as it spread outside the US.
>>
>> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
>> Experiment".?? It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
>> generation system was being aggressively developed by big
>> corporations, perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based
>> data communications infrastructure for the world - much as the
>> telephone, telegraph, postal, and other such older global
>> communications infrastructures had evolved.
>>
>> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of
>> little relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards
>> bodies, that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus,
>> as just an Experiment,? the Internet got little attention from
>> corporate or political interests.?? It grew on its own and likely
>> surprised a lot of people when it exploded and dominated, especially
>> through the 1990s after the Web appeared and provided content and
>> services interesting to the general public.
>>
>> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it
>> had grown inside.?? But is that true?
>>
>> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political
>> and commercial interests in other countries??? Was it viewed as a
>> threat, or ignored as irrelevant?? In the US, IIRC a lot of big
>> companies were blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the
>> Internet and TCP.
>>
>> But elsewhere?? For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
>> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
>>
>> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
>>
>> Jack Haverty
>>
>>
> 
> 

From pugs78 at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 14:08:46 2024
From: pugs78 at gmail.com (Tom Lyon)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:08:46 -0700
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>

Someone in Finland told me that Finland got a huge head-start with TCP/IP
because in the 80s, as a satellite economy to the USSR, they were not
aligned with the rest of Europe - and could skip the OSI protocol nonsense.

See also https://siy.fi/history-of-the-finnish-internet/

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:23?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
> > Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
> > Europe.
> >
> > - Gergely
>
> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet as
> it spread outside the US.
>
> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
> Experiment".   It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
> generation system was being aggressively developed by big corporations,
> perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based data
> communications infrastructure for the world - much as the telephone,
> telegraph, postal, and other such older global communications
> infrastructures had evolved.
>
> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of little
> relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards bodies,
> that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, as just
> an Experiment,  the Internet got little attention from corporate or
> political interests.   It grew on its own and likely surprised a lot of
> people when it exploded and dominated, especially through the 1990s
> after the Web appeared and provided content and services interesting to
> the general public.
>
> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it had
> grown inside.   But is that true?
>
> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political and
> commercial interests in other countries?   Was it viewed as a threat, or
> ignored as irrelevant?  In the US, IIRC a lot of big companies were
> blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the Internet and TCP.
>
> But elsewhere?  For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
>
> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
>
> Jack Haverty
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 14:44:05 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:44:05 +1200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b318ebe9-7d4c-4056-a87c-685fcc22d165@gmail.com>

"Finland ratified the OECD Convention and became a member country on 28 January 1969."

Before ARPANET!

I don't believe that story, frankly. The Finns are just pragmatic and switched easily from OSI doctrine when it was time.

Don't forget that the head of the ITU who pushed hardest for telco liberalisation was Pekka Tarjanne, from Finland. But in his day, the ITU was full-on OSI (except for their IT department, who supported TCP/IP very early.)

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 25-Jul-24 09:08, Tom Lyon via Internet-history wrote:
> Someone in Finland told me that Finland got a huge head-start with TCP/IP
> because in the 80s, as a satellite economy to the USSR, they were not
> aligned with the rest of Europe - and could skip the OSI protocol nonsense.
> 
> See also https://siy.fi/history-of-the-finnish-internet/
> 
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:23?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
>>> Europe.
>>>
>>> - Gergely
>>
>> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet as
>> it spread outside the US.
>>
>> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
>> Experiment".   It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
>> generation system was being aggressively developed by big corporations,
>> perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based data
>> communications infrastructure for the world - much as the telephone,
>> telegraph, postal, and other such older global communications
>> infrastructures had evolved.
>>
>> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of little
>> relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards bodies,
>> that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, as just
>> an Experiment,  the Internet got little attention from corporate or
>> political interests.   It grew on its own and likely surprised a lot of
>> people when it exploded and dominated, especially through the 1990s
>> after the Web appeared and provided content and services interesting to
>> the general public.
>>
>> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it had
>> grown inside.   But is that true?
>>
>> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political and
>> commercial interests in other countries?   Was it viewed as a threat, or
>> ignored as irrelevant?  In the US, IIRC a lot of big companies were
>> blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the Internet and TCP.
>>
>> But elsewhere?  For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
>> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
>>
>> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
>>
>> Jack Haverty
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>

From craig at tereschau.net  Wed Jul 24 15:34:54 2024
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 16:34:54 -0600
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
 <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4CdCbpj4w9gM5U3qnofOF5gYBCdJHfmPYhxcw-kvGPk4-Q@mail.gmail.com>

Agreed.  One anecdote - NORDUNET, which connected the Scandinavian research
institutions.  They basically said (after much careful politicking) "we'll
support what works [DECNET, NJE/EARN, TCP/IP] until OSI is ready" and had a
multiprotocol, but mostly DECNET and TCP/IP network running and connected
to NSFNET by late 1988.  Further, EUNET shifted to a TCP/IP (vs. UUCP)
platform and connected to NORDUNET in early 1989.  NORDUNET spoke of
providing a multi-protocol "NORDUNET plug" to their customers.

So there was this operational network, covering much of "northern Europe"
(Iceland through to Finland, plus EUNET in Amsterdam and of course the UK,
which had a substantial Internet presence) that just worked and was
ostensibly protocol independent* [just whatever worked]. NORDUNET folks
showed up at EU events and discussed their success and its impact, and that
put pressure on universities in other parts of Europe.

By the way, the NORDUNET folks were helped substantially by folks like
Larry Landweber (who advocated for international connections) and Steve
Wolff and Steve Goldstein at NSF who made connections happen for NORDUNET.

Craig (who was friends with the NORDUNET folks and worked down the hall
from many of them during a sabbatical in Sweden in 1991)

*I say ostensibly because, behind the scenes, many NORDUNET members were
part of the RIPE project, (the IP in RIPE standing for IP), which was set
up to create a European IP network in response to the EU's dysfunctional
RARE program to get an OSI internet working.

On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 3:02?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> The techies knew it 5 years before the management and pols.
>
> Regards
>     Brian Carpenter
>
> On 25-Jul-24 08:42, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
> > As I understand it, it was the European Interop show.  All the OSI folks
> > were promising "real soon now." Meanwhile, all the TCP/IP stuff was on
> > display, up and running in the shownet, and available for sales.  So
> > much for OSI.
> >
> > Miles Fidelman
> >
> >
> > Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> >> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
> >>> Europe.
> >>>
> >>> - Gergely
> >>
> >> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet
> >> as it spread outside the US.
> >>
> >> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
> >> Experiment".   It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
> >> generation system was being aggressively developed by big
> >> corporations, perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based
> >> data communications infrastructure for the world - much as the
> >> telephone, telegraph, postal, and other such older global
> >> communications infrastructures had evolved.
> >>
> >> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of
> >> little relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards
> >> bodies, that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus,
> >> as just an Experiment,  the Internet got little attention from
> >> corporate or political interests.   It grew on its own and likely
> >> surprised a lot of people when it exploded and dominated, especially
> >> through the 1990s after the Web appeared and provided content and
> >> services interesting to the general public.
> >>
> >> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it
> >> had grown inside.   But is that true?
> >>
> >> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political
> >> and commercial interests in other countries?   Was it viewed as a
> >> threat, or ignored as irrelevant?  In the US, IIRC a lot of big
> >> companies were blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the
> >> Internet and TCP.
> >>
> >> But elsewhere?  For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
> >> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
> >>
> >> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
> >>
> >> Jack Haverty
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Jul 24 16:18:20 2024
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 11:18:20 +1200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <CAHQj4CdCbpj4w9gM5U3qnofOF5gYBCdJHfmPYhxcw-kvGPk4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
 <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>
 <CAHQj4CdCbpj4w9gM5U3qnofOF5gYBCdJHfmPYhxcw-kvGPk4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5b18d0c4-5cd3-4f2c-9c8b-cd2187f71dc6@gmail.com>

For the report advising RARE to support TCP/IP see https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/RARE-TCP-IP-report.txt

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 25-Jul-24 10:34, Craig Partridge wrote:
> Agreed.? One anecdote - NORDUNET, which connected the Scandinavian research institutions.? They basically said (after much careful politicking) "we'll support what works [DECNET, NJE/EARN, TCP/IP] until OSI is ready" and had a multiprotocol, but mostly DECNET and TCP/IP network running and connected to NSFNET by late 1988.? Further, EUNET shifted to a TCP/IP (vs. UUCP) platform and connected to NORDUNET in early 1989.? NORDUNET spoke of providing a multi-protocol "NORDUNET plug" to their customers.
> 
> So there was this operational network, covering much of "northern Europe" (Iceland through to Finland, plus EUNET in Amsterdam and of course the UK, which had a substantial Internet presence) that just worked and was ostensibly?protocol independent* [just whatever worked]. NORDUNET folks showed up at EU events and discussed their success and its impact, and that put pressure on universities in other parts of Europe.
> 
> By the way, the NORDUNET folks were helped substantially by folks like Larry Landweber (who advocated for international connections) and Steve Wolff and Steve Goldstein at NSF who made connections happen for NORDUNET.
> 
> Craig (who was friends with the NORDUNET folks and worked down the hall from many of them during a sabbatical in Sweden in 1991)
> 
> *I say ostensibly because, behind the scenes, many NORDUNET members were part of the RIPE project, (the IP in RIPE standing for IP), which was set up to create a European IP network in response to the EU's dysfunctional RARE program to get an OSI internet working.
> 
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 3:02?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> 
>     The techies knew it 5 years before the management and pols.
> 
>     Regards
>      ? ? Brian Carpenter
> 
>     On 25-Jul-24 08:42, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
>      > As I understand it, it was the European Interop show.? All the OSI folks
>      > were promising "real soon now." Meanwhile, all the TCP/IP stuff was on
>      > display, up and running in the shownet, and available for sales.? So
>      > much for OSI.
>      >
>      > Miles Fidelman
>      >
>      >
>      > Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>      >> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
>      >>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
>      >>> Europe.
>      >>>
>      >>> - Gergely
>      >>
>      >> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet
>      >> as it spread outside the US.
>      >>
>      >> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
>      >> Experiment".?? It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
>      >> generation system was being aggressively developed by big
>      >> corporations, perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based
>      >> data communications infrastructure for the world - much as the
>      >> telephone, telegraph, postal, and other such older global
>      >> communications infrastructures had evolved.
>      >>
>      >> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of
>      >> little relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards
>      >> bodies, that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus,
>      >> as just an Experiment,? the Internet got little attention from
>      >> corporate or political interests.?? It grew on its own and likely
>      >> surprised a lot of people when it exploded and dominated, especially
>      >> through the 1990s after the Web appeared and provided content and
>      >> services interesting to the general public.
>      >>
>      >> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it
>      >> had grown inside.?? But is that true?
>      >>
>      >> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political
>      >> and commercial interests in other countries??? Was it viewed as a
>      >> threat, or ignored as irrelevant?? In the US, IIRC a lot of big
>      >> companies were blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the
>      >> Internet and TCP.
>      >>
>      >> But elsewhere?? For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
>      >> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
>      >>
>      >> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
>      >>
>      >> Jack Haverty
>      >>
>      >>
>      >
>      >
>     -- 
>     Internet-history mailing list
>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *****
> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists.

From john at demco.ca  Wed Jul 24 17:32:18 2024
From: john at demco.ca (John Demco)
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2024 17:32:18 -0700
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <334e7f26-c027-4916-a666-47cce740e389@demco.ca>

Jack,

For a version of the history of networking in Canada see this short book 
entitled ?A Nation Goes Online? 
https://www.canarie.ca/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Publication-A-Nation-Goes-Online.pdf

It was published in 2001, if I remember correctly, and the Internet 
begins rising to prominence in Chapter 4.

Regards,
John Demco


On 2024-07-24 1:23 p.m., Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
>> Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
>> Europe.
>>
>> - Gergely
>
> I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet 
> as it spread outside the US.
>
> Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an 
> Experiment".?? It might provide research insights, but the "real" next 
> generation system was being aggressively developed by big 
> corporations, perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based 
> data communications infrastructure for the world - much as the 
> telephone, telegraph, postal, and other such older global 
> communications infrastructures had evolved.
>
> The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of 
> little relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards 
> bodies, that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, 
> as just an Experiment,? the Internet got little attention from 
> corporate or political interests.?? It grew on its own and likely 
> surprised a lot of people when it exploded and dominated, especially 
> through the 1990s after the Web appeared and provided content and 
> services interesting to the general public.
>
> I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it 
> had grown inside.?? But is that true?
>
> So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political 
> and commercial interests in other countries??? Was it viewed as a 
> threat, or ignored as irrelevant?? In the US, IIRC a lot of big 
> companies were blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the 
> Internet and TCP.
>
> But elsewhere?? For a country that "does not like the open Internet", 
> when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
>
> Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
>
> Jack Haverty
>
>



From julf at Julf.com  Wed Jul 24 23:42:58 2024
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 08:42:58 +0200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <085e9f92-8da9-4d34-9538-ca143e271b73@Julf.com>

On 24/07/2024 23:08, Tom Lyon via Internet-history wrote:
> Someone in Finland told me that Finland got a huge head-start with TCP/IP
> because in the 80s, as a satellite economy to the USSR, they were not
> aligned with the rest of Europe - and could skip the OSI protocol nonsense.

Finland was not a satellite economy to the USSR any more than, let's
say, Austria, that also had significant trade with the USSR.

Finland had UUCP-based EUnet (that migrated to TCP/IP) and the FUNET
university network that was a mix of DECnet, TCP/IP and IBM BITNET.
Thanks to no-nonsense, pragmatical people like Juha Hein?nen, Finland
became one of the first major customers for Cisco routers.

	Julf



From el at lisse.na  Thu Jul 25 00:00:48 2024
From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:00:48 +0200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fa24d6ef-1b07-4330-a7d0-0ff591251e0b@Spark>

?Satellite Economy? is an interesting term for Neutrality :-)-O

But they have joined NATO last year.

el


--
Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (retired)
el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP
10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply
On Jul 24, 2024 at 23:09 +0200, Tom Lyon via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>, wrote:
> Someone in Finland told me that Finland got a huge head-start with TCP/IP
> because in the 80s, as a satellite economy to the USSR, they were not
> aligned with the rest of Europe - and could skip the OSI protocol nonsense.
>
> See also https://siy.fi/history-of-the-finnish-internet/
>
> On Wed, Jul 24, 2024 at 1:23?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > On 7/23/24 10:16, Gergely Buday via Internet-history wrote:
> > > Russia does not like the open Internet as they did not like Radio Free
> > > Europe.
> > >
> > > - Gergely
> >
> > I've always been curious about the adoption of the TCP-based Internet as
> > it spread outside the US.
> >
> > Inside the US, the Internet, and TCP, was characterized as "an
> > Experiment". It might provide research insights, but the "real" next
> > generation system was being aggressively developed by big corporations,
> > perhaps to evolve into some kind of OSI standards-based data
> > communications infrastructure for the world - much as the telephone,
> > telegraph, postal, and other such older global communications
> > infrastructures had evolved.
> >
> > The perception of the Internet as just "an experiment" made it of little
> > relevance to the competitors, both corporations and standards bodies,
> > that were battling to define the actual next generation. Thus, as just
> > an Experiment, the Internet got little attention from corporate or
> > political interests. It grew on its own and likely surprised a lot of
> > people when it exploded and dominated, especially through the 1990s
> > after the Web appeared and provided content and services interesting to
> > the general public.
> >
> > I've always assumed that the Internet grew outside the US much as it had
> > grown inside. But is that true?
> >
> > So my question is --- How was the Internet received by the political and
> > commercial interests in other countries? Was it viewed as a threat, or
> > ignored as irrelevant? In the US, IIRC a lot of big companies were
> > blindsided by the sudden (to them) emergence of the Internet and TCP.
> >
> > But elsewhere? For a country that "does not like the open Internet",
> > when did they realize that, and what did they do about it?
> >
> > Any recollections, pointers to literature, etc.?
> >
> > Jack Haverty
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From julf at Julf.com  Thu Jul 25 00:46:27 2024
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 09:46:27 +0200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <fa24d6ef-1b07-4330-a7d0-0ff591251e0b@Spark>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <CANxB0bQHWuaLKj_w5tFHpvrKwDM8hLPLVCs0Q1tMLd+eTg+rcg@mail.gmail.com>
 <fa24d6ef-1b07-4330-a7d0-0ff591251e0b@Spark>
Message-ID: <21b03b60-9eee-48a7-80b0-62e9803edcbf@Julf.com>

On 25/07/2024 09:00, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote:
> ?Satellite Economy? is an interesting term for Neutrality :-)-O
> 
> But they have joined NATO last year.

And even back in the 1980s when I did my military service the
bad guys in all the exercises were always the red team and they
always came from the East... :)

	Julf



From marius at hi.is  Thu Jul 25 03:58:29 2024
From: marius at hi.is (Marius Olafsson)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 10:58:29 +0000
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <CAHQj4CdCbpj4w9gM5U3qnofOF5gYBCdJHfmPYhxcw-kvGPk4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
 <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>
 <CAHQj4CdCbpj4w9gM5U3qnofOF5gYBCdJHfmPYhxcw-kvGPk4-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ZqIv1UMHLS0zJ_5i@hi.is>


> Agreed.  One anecdote - NORDUNET, which connected the Scandinavian research
> institutions.  They basically said (after much careful politicking) "we'll
> support what works [DECNET, NJE/EARN, TCP/IP] until OSI is ready" and had a
> multiprotocol, but mostly DECNET and TCP/IP network running and connected
> to NSFNET by late 1988.  Further, EUNET shifted to a TCP/IP (vs. UUCP)
> platform and connected to NORDUNET in early 1989.  NORDUNET spoke of
> providing a multi-protocol "NORDUNET plug" to their customers.
> 
> So there was this operational network, covering much of "northern Europe"
> (Iceland through to Finland, plus EUNET in Amsterdam and of course the UK,
> which had a substantial Internet presence) that just worked and was
> ostensibly protocol independent* [just whatever worked]. NORDUNET folks
> showed up at EU events and discussed their success and its impact, and that
> put pressure on universities in other parts of Europe.

The member networks in the nordics where free to utilize whatever "plug" they 
needed, but by far the largest use was for the TCP/IP plug. For example Iceland
only ever connected via TCP/IP "plug" to NORDUnet.

For a detailed story on the genesis of NORDUnet see 
https://nordu.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/11/TheHistoryOfNordunet_simple.pdf

--
Marius Olafsson
RHnet 


From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Thu Jul 25 07:07:39 2024
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2024 16:07:39 +0200
Subject: [ih] How TCP and the Internet "won" outside of the US?
In-Reply-To: <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>
References: <32b4e73f-b73b-4ad1-ac12-1787178df308@Julf.com>
 <202407231602.46NG22o1053218@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
 <CA+HOLVAhc1y=gRFc5rUEPjE_D5nP9s0Zn5XwNerRt46QpBn5yw@mail.gmail.com>
 <e5a6f8c7-fe65-42b5-809d-82ae3a176655@3kitty.org>
 <85566296-6813-ecf1-b87a-24f1454291c4@meetinghouse.net>
 <8293974a-e8f4-4f5d-a12e-3a426779984c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <202407251407.46PE7dqg092669@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history writes:

 > The techies knew it 5 years before the management and pols.

Yes, that's a great summary.

We basically did what we worked meanwhle playing lip services to
reulators etc if needed.


	jaap