From ycor at iit.demokritos.gr Thu Jan 4 08:24:56 2024 From: ycor at iit.demokritos.gr (Yannis Korovesis) Date: Thu, 04 Jan 2024 18:24:56 +0200 Subject: [ih] The Internet Protocol Journal Dec. 2023 Message-ID: <2d53014e-2d59-46f4-aefd-b8ec33745884@iit.demokritos.gr> Why ATM failed Craig Patridge CSU https://ipj.dreamhosters.com/ ????? ??? BlueMail ??? Android ? From vint at google.com Mon Jan 8 05:23:22 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2024 08:23:22 -0500 Subject: [ih] Wuzhen Internet Science and Tech Museum Message-ID: >From Izumi AIZU Here is a link to the video I took. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AHTbicLrLc&t=210s vint -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jan 9 09:33:46 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 09:33:46 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet Message-ID: IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history leading to the development of the Internet: https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at MIT, and from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and evolved the ARPANET.?? The history told in the essay agrees with my recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was using a collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over some kind of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people do.?? That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that we tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. Jack Haverty (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 13:00:06 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:00:06 +1300 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> Jack, Thanks, that's a nice article. But there is a bit of a category mistake. The APRPANET wasn't the Internet. I couldn't use the APRPANET in 1971-73 when I took my first baby steps in networking at CERN. I couldn't use it in 1974-1976 when we tried to set up an inter-university network in New Zealand, and I still couldn't use it in 1977 back at CERN. (There were a few lucky users in the UK and Norway by then, of course, but it was still a network, not a catenet.) The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). Regards Brian Carpenter On 10-Jan-24 06:33, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history leading > to the development of the Internet: > > https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge > > Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at MIT, and > from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and > evolved the ARPANET.?? The history told in the essay agrees with my > recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. > > As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was using a > collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over some kind > of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people do. > That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that we > tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. > > Jack Haverty > (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > > From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jan 9 14:33:35 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 14:33:35 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0bb768fc-1c0a-428b-bf76-650e12befc12@3kitty.org> Hi Brian, I concur - the ARPANET was not the Internet.? My personal history of Internet "conceptual leaps" that I remember would be: 1) Licklider creates the concept of the "galactic network", and drives it to the first stage of implementation by orchestrating the creation of ARPANET.?? Many others create networks as well, and can argue about who was first. 2) Cerf/Kahn create the concept of interconnecting existing networks, and drive the implementation of the (first?) concatenation of dissimilar networks, first called the "catenet" and later renamed "The Internet".?? Where the ARPANET had created a way for dissimilar computers to communicate, The Internet created a way for dissimilar networks (and their attached computers) to communicate. 3) Kahn promoted the conceptual shift from unified to distributed management, so that The Internet could be managed and operated by multiple organizations and remain interoperable.? This resulted in Eric Rosen and I developing the concept of "autonomous systems" and implementation of EGP and its successors. 4) The Internet executed a "conceptual leap" from being an interconnection of networks to being a network itself, with the recognition that Internet nodes could be interconnected not only using existing networks, but also by using simple wires or fiber or radio links to connect nodes.?? I'm not sure who was first to think of this (might have been me...), but I remember we implemented it at BBN while we were responsible for operating the "core" of The Internet in the early 1980s. Over the years on this list I've written more about #3 and #4.? A common theme is the coupling of a conceptual leap with actual implementation.?? Concepts are just ideas until someone puts them into hardware, software, and wetware (policies, procedures, etc.) Licklider was my mentor and I think his philosophy infected me.? For the 8 years I worked in Lick's research group at MIT during the 1970s, other than some students' theses I don't recall we ever wrote an academic paper.? Instead we built hardware and wrote code. Building the Galactic Network was Lick's passion, using collaborating computers to help people do everything people do. Fun times... Jack Haverty On 1/9/24 13:00, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Jack, > > Thanks, that's a nice article. > > But there is a bit of a category mistake. The APRPANET wasn't the > Internet. I couldn't use the APRPANET in 1971-73 when I took my > first baby steps in networking at CERN. I couldn't use it in > 1974-1976 when we tried to set up an inter-university network in > New Zealand, and I still couldn't use it in 1977 back at CERN. > (There were a few lucky users in the UK and Norway by then, > of course, but it was still a network, not a catenet.) > > The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in > ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 > (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). > > Regards > ?? Brian Carpenter > > On 10-Jan-24 06:33, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history leading >> to the development of the Internet: >> >> https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge >> >> Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at MIT, and >> from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and >> evolved the ARPANET.?? The history told in the essay agrees with my >> recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. >> >> As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was using a >> collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over some kind >> of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people do. >> That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that we >> tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. >> >> Jack Haverty >> (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) >> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vgcerf at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 17:15:28 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 20:15:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian, Bob Kahn and I were working on the interconnection of networks starting in 1973. The first I saw the idea of dropping the underlying networks and just using routers with IP knowledge to build a network was when Cisco System announced their router design. Maybe Pouzin had that idea (no distinct network below the gateway) but I think all our implementations tended to have some kind of underlying network. Even the Ethernets had gateways (and ARP for the hosts). I thought Cigale was the packet network and it had an underlying routing system (did it?) and that hosts and gateways would be needed to interconnect the networks. Of course, Pouzin had only the one CIGALE network (kind of like the Arpanet but with fixed datagrams rather than variable length message transport. ) I don't recall that he was working on a multi-network system? vint On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 4:00?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Jack, > > Thanks, that's a nice article. > > But there is a bit of a category mistake. The APRPANET wasn't the > Internet. I couldn't use the APRPANET in 1971-73 when I took my > first baby steps in networking at CERN. I couldn't use it in > 1974-1976 when we tried to set up an inter-university network in > New Zealand, and I still couldn't use it in 1977 back at CERN. > (There were a few lucky users in the UK and Norway by then, > of course, but it was still a network, not a catenet.) > > The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in > ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 > (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 10-Jan-24 06:33, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history leading > > to the development of the Internet: > > > > https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge > > > > Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at MIT, and > > from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and > > evolved the ARPANET. The history told in the essay agrees with my > > recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. > > > > As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was using a > > collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over some kind > > of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people do. > > That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that we > > tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. > > > > Jack Haverty > > (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 9 17:24:00 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:24:00 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> Message-ID: <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> On 1/9/2024 1:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in > ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 > (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). uucp was, essentially, an single integrated network, with source routing. And I guess PARC was doing gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers, rather than unified internetworking, in the 70s. While packet-level inter-networking took some more time, it's it's worth noting that email-level internetwork was pretty active by the latter 70s.? Again, PARC, but then, I think, Berkeley's delivermail/sendmail.? MMDF was doing it for Army Materiel Command and then CSNet from 1979.? I don't remember the details of Bitnet's gatewaying to Arpanet mail. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From pugs78 at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 17:32:35 2024 From: pugs78 at gmail.com (Tom Lyon) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:32:35 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: If one focuses on user experience, rather than lower layer technology, one can argue that Arpanet and Internet were essentially the same. Compatible host naming, email, telnet, ftp... IMHO. Of course, Internet evolved from there. On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 5:24?PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 1/9/2024 1:00 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in > > ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 > > (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). > > uucp was, essentially, an single integrated network, with source > routing. And I guess PARC was doing gatewaying/translation between > Arpanet/XNS peers, rather than unified internetworking, in the 70s. > > While packet-level inter-networking took some more time, it's it's worth > noting that email-level internetwork was pretty active by the latter > 70s. Again, PARC, but then, I think, Berkeley's delivermail/sendmail. > MMDF was doing it for Army Materiel Command and then CSNet from 1979. I > don't remember the details of Bitnet's gatewaying to Arpanet mail. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 9 17:48:38 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:48:38 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 1/9/2024 5:32 PM, Tom Lyon wrote: > If one focuses on user experience, rather than lower layer technology, > one can argue that Arpanet and Internet?were essentially the same. > Compatible host naming, email, telnet, ftp...? IMHO.? Of course, > Internet evolved from there. Arpanet had a central authority, even with the various host-level independence..? An Internet does not have any central authority. So for discussion of UX I think it entirely reasonable to talk about the Internet starting in 1969, or at least with FTP, Telnet, and email, about 2-3 years after that. But this mailing list is discussing underlying tech.? So the differences between single network and inter-networkS is fundamental. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 9 17:58:22 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 17:58:22 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> On 1/9/2024 5:53 PM, Joly MacFie wrote: > > An Internet does not have any central authority. > > Is not IANA a central authority? oh boy.? Do they decide who can connect to the Internet and pass data across it? Yes, there are registration authorities, for various parametric bits -- and I've have expected ICANN to be cited more quickly than IANA -- but generally, administrative entities like these are quite different from operational authorities. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Jan 9 18:09:36 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 15:09:36 +1300 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> Message-ID: <372c1930-fb55-845e-ed1f-c71383120b77@gmail.com> Vint, Thanks; you were there and I wasn't. I just re-read McKenzie's paper from the Annals about INWG (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5723076) and I assume it's accurate. I've never looked into the details of Cyclades and Cigale. But from what Pouzin wrote in 1972 (https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/800280.811034, published January 1973), the addressing scheme was rather simple and I guess they had fixed routing tables. He certainly discussed interconnection issues - in fact I find the following insight very perceptive: "Inter-network communications have still to demonstrate their practical feasibility... In particular, any function except sending packets is probably just specific enough not to work in conjunction with a neighbor." That's still true. For example, the Internet is notoriously opaque to newly specified IPv6 extension headers. Regards Brian On 10-Jan-24 14:15, vinton cerf wrote: > Brian, > Bob Kahn and I were working on the interconnection of networks starting in 1973. The first I saw the idea of dropping the underlying networks and just using routers with IP knowledge to build a network was when Cisco System announced their router design. Maybe Pouzin had that idea (no distinct network below the gateway) but I think all our implementations tended to have some kind of underlying network. Even the Ethernets had gateways (and ARP for the hosts). I thought Cigale was the packet network and it had an underlying routing system (did it?) and that hosts and gateways would be needed to interconnect the networks. Of course, Pouzin had only the one CIGALE network (kind of like the Arpanet but with fixed datagrams rather than variable length message transport. ) I don't recall that he was working on a multi-network system? > vint > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 4:00?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history > wrote: > > Jack, > > Thanks, that's a nice article. > > But there is a bit of a category mistake. The APRPANET wasn't the > Internet. I couldn't use the APRPANET in 1971-73 when I took my > first baby steps in networking at CERN. I couldn't use it in > 1974-1976 when we tried to set up an inter-university network in > New Zealand, and I still couldn't use it in 1977 back at CERN. > (There were a few lucky users in the UK and Norway by then, > of course, but it was still a network, not a catenet.) > > The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in > ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 > (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). > > Regards > ? ? Brian Carpenter > > On 10-Jan-24 06:33, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history leading > > to the development of the Internet: > > > > https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge > > > > Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at MIT, and > > from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and > > evolved the ARPANET.?? The history told in the essay agrees with my > > recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. > > > > As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was using a > > collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over some kind > > of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people do. > > That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that we > > tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. > > > > Jack Haverty > > (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 9 18:11:35 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 18:11:35 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <60c4fb24-c2fa-4db4-ac01-8ab5739f6a35@dcrocker.net> On 1/9/2024 5:58 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > but generally, administrative entities like these are quite different > from operational authorities. fwiw, I once did a book review that explored this in some detail, starting with an opening bit of fantasy that was fun to write: Review of: Ruling the Root: Internet Governance and the Taming of Cyberspace and the followup . d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From vint at google.com Tue Jan 9 18:12:11 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 21:12:11 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <372c1930-fb55-845e-ed1f-c71383120b77@gmail.com> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <372c1930-fb55-845e-ed1f-c71383120b77@gmail.com> Message-ID: thanks for this, Brian. As far as I know, Louis built only the Cigale and connected hosts to it. However, it is certainly believable that he was thinking about and writing about interconnection. His "Catenet" idea is evidence of that. I used that term in INWG note 48 but later went with "internet" v On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 9:09?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Vint, > > Thanks; you were there and I wasn't. I just re-read McKenzie's paper from > the Annals about INWG (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5723076) and > I assume it's accurate. > > I've never looked into the details of Cyclades and Cigale. But from what > Pouzin wrote in 1972 (https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/800280.811034, > published January 1973), the addressing scheme was rather simple and I > guess they had fixed routing tables. He certainly discussed interconnection > issues - in fact I find the following insight very perceptive: > > "Inter-network communications have still to demonstrate > their practical feasibility... In particular, > any function except sending packets is probably just > specific enough not to work in conjunction with a > neighbor." > > That's still true. For example, the Internet is notoriously opaque to > newly specified IPv6 extension headers. > > Regards > Brian > > On 10-Jan-24 14:15, vinton cerf wrote: > > Brian, > > Bob Kahn and I were working on the interconnection of networks starting > in 1973. The first I saw the idea of dropping the underlying networks and > just using routers with IP knowledge to build a network was when Cisco > System announced their router design. Maybe Pouzin had that idea (no > distinct network below the gateway) but I think all our implementations > tended to have some kind of underlying network. Even the Ethernets had > gateways (and ARP for the hosts). I thought Cigale was the packet network > and it had an underlying routing system (did it?) and that hosts and > gateways would be needed to interconnect the networks. Of course, Pouzin > had only the one CIGALE network (kind of like the Arpanet but with fixed > datagrams rather than variable length message transport. ) I don't recall > that he was working on a multi-network system? > > vint > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 4:00?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > wrote: > > > > Jack, > > > > Thanks, that's a nice article. > > > > But there is a bit of a category mistake. The APRPANET wasn't the > > Internet. I couldn't use the APRPANET in 1971-73 when I took my > > first baby steps in networking at CERN. I couldn't use it in > > 1974-1976 when we tried to set up an inter-university network in > > New Zealand, and I still couldn't use it in 1977 back at CERN. > > (There were a few lucky users in the UK and Norway by then, > > of course, but it was still a network, not a catenet.) > > > > The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in > > ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 > > (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > > > > On 10-Jan-24 06:33, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history > leading > > > to the development of the Internet: > > > > > > https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge < > https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge> > > > > > > Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at > MIT, and > > > from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and > > > evolved the ARPANET. The history told in the essay agrees with > my > > > recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. > > > > > > As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was > using a > > > collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over > some kind > > > of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people > do. > > > That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that > we > > > tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. > > > > > > Jack Haverty > > > (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > > > > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history < > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history> > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 9 18:14:43 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 18:14:43 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <60c4fb24-c2fa-4db4-ac01-8ab5739f6a35@dcrocker.net> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> <60c4fb24-c2fa-4db4-ac01-8ab5739f6a35@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 1/9/2024 6:11 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > Review of: Ruling the Root: Internet Governance and the Taming of > ?? Cyberspace drat.? link doesn't work, though I tested it before posting. This one should work: ? https://bbiw.net/reviews/Ruling%20the%20Root%20-%20IPJ%20Issues.htm d/' -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From jeanjour at comcast.net Tue Jan 9 18:30:30 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Tue, 9 Jan 2024 21:30:30 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <372c1930-fb55-845e-ed1f-c71383120b77@gmail.com> References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <372c1930-fb55-845e-ed1f-c71383120b77@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9AE1DA71-05BD-4375-8F5D-7D15AF32CC18@comcast.net> Keep in mind that CYCLADES was not intended to be a production network, but a network for doing research on networks. Hence, they started with the idea of doing the least that was possible and then seeing what else was needed and how. In a sense, CYCLADES was the first ?clean-slate? attempt. Also, CYCLADES assumed that hosts were not located near the CIGALE switches and that a Host could be connected to more than one switch. It supported multihoming as a consequence of the architecture. The Transport Protocol carried its own addresses and had a network address for each switch it was connected to. They started with fixed routing and moved later to dynamic routing later. Cigale was implemented by Jean-Louis Grang?. They had also done a contract in 1972 with Univ of Waterloo to investigate routing and congestion. Eric Manning had a brilliant grad student named Merek Irland. He did a lot of simulations. However, by 1979, when IRIA sponsored a conference on flow and congestion control, he had died of lung cancer. The proceedings are dedicated to him. Furthermore, the designers of the Transport Protocol (Zimmermann and Elie) had realized that the protocol naturally cleaved into data transfer and feedback functions (ack and flow control). Data Transfer writes the state vector, Feedback reads it and generates the ack and flow control packets. There is very little interaction between the two. During connection establishment, it was possible to choose whether the feedback functions were present. So in effect, CYCLADES Transport included both the UDP and TCP functionality and later didn?t break fragmentation at the gateways. CYCLADES was exploring a different problem than the ARPANET or the Internet. Take care, John Day > On Jan 9, 2024, at 21:09, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Vint, > > Thanks; you were there and I wasn't. I just re-read McKenzie's paper from the Annals about INWG (https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/5723076) and I assume it's accurate. > > I've never looked into the details of Cyclades and Cigale. But from what Pouzin wrote in 1972 (https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/800280.811034, published January 1973), the addressing scheme was rather simple and I guess they had fixed routing tables. He certainly discussed interconnection issues - in fact I find the following insight very perceptive: > > "Inter-network communications have still to demonstrate > their practical feasibility... In particular, > any function except sending packets is probably just > specific enough not to work in conjunction with a > neighbor." > > That's still true. For example, the Internet is notoriously opaque to newly specified IPv6 extension headers. > > Regards > Brian > > On 10-Jan-24 14:15, vinton cerf wrote: >> Brian, >> Bob Kahn and I were working on the interconnection of networks starting in 1973. The first I saw the idea of dropping the underlying networks and just using routers with IP knowledge to build a network was when Cisco System announced their router design. Maybe Pouzin had that idea (no distinct network below the gateway) but I think all our implementations tended to have some kind of underlying network. Even the Ethernets had gateways (and ARP for the hosts). I thought Cigale was the packet network and it had an underlying routing system (did it?) and that hosts and gateways would be needed to interconnect the networks. Of course, Pouzin had only the one CIGALE network (kind of like the Arpanet but with fixed datagrams rather than variable length message transport. ) I don't recall that he was working on a multi-network system? >> vint >> On Tue, Jan 9, 2024 at 4:00?PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history > wrote: >> Jack, >> Thanks, that's a nice article. >> But there is a bit of a category mistake. The APRPANET wasn't the >> Internet. I couldn't use the APRPANET in 1971-73 when I took my >> first baby steps in networking at CERN. I couldn't use it in >> 1974-1976 when we tried to set up an inter-university network in >> New Zealand, and I still couldn't use it in 1977 back at CERN. >> (There were a few lucky users in the UK and Norway by then, >> of course, but it was still a network, not a catenet.) >> The conceptual leap forward happened, as far as I can tell, in >> ~1974 thanks largely to Pouzin and it became reality in 1981 >> (or a little bit earlier if you admit uucp). >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> On 10-Jan-24 06:33, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> > IMHO, this essay provides a good overview of the early history leading >> > to the development of the Internet: >> > >> > https://www.freaktakes.com/p/the-third-university-of-cambridge >> > >> > Professor Licklider was my thesis advisor, and later boss, at MIT, and >> > from 1977 to 1990 I worked at BBN in the same group that built and >> > evolved the ARPANET. The history told in the essay agrees with my >> > recollections of the time span when I was involved at MIT and BBN. >> > >> > As told in the essay, Lick's vision of a "galactic network" was using a >> > collection of computers, communicating amongst themselves over some kind >> > of electronic means, to assist people in doing everything people do. >> > That was the mantra that drove creation of the ARPANET, and that we >> > tried (are trying) to evolve into today's Internet. >> > >> > Jack Haverty >> > (MIT 1966-1977; BBN 1977-1990) >> > >> > >> -- Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From johnl at iecc.com Tue Jan 9 20:14:31 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 9 Jan 2024 23:14:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <0bb768fc-1c0a-428b-bf76-650e12befc12@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >2) Cerf/Kahn create the concept of interconnecting existing networks, >and drive the implementation of the (first?) concatenation of dissimilar >networks, first called the "catenet" and later renamed "The Internet".?? It occurs to me that it might not have been obvious that you could run the same metwork protocol over a 56K DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two togeher using simple minded gateways, and it'd work. Was this a question back in the day? Were you suprised at how well IP scaled with only minor tweaking along the way? R's, John From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Jan 10 05:11:10 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 05:11:10 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 1/9/2024 9:12 PM, Joly MacFie wrote: > I've always thought that this was kind of a key paradox, that the > Internet's diversity was enabled by a common root. And it is not as if there haven't been active efforts to find a viable alternative. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jan 10 09:57:43 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 17:57:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <926479011.11372499.1704909463862@mail.yahoo.com> Having trouble posting to the mailing list again.? Hope there are no duplicates. (Also I haven't gotten Joly MacFie's email yet) While poking around for old papers,? I found the dtic link to DDN Protocol Handbook Volume III. In the past I have had trouble locating things there so I thought I would send it along. https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA166326.pdf Also I tripped on this website which looks like it could be interesting.?? https://historydraft.com/story/history-of-internet/timeline/526 Lots of other topics covered on the site. barbara On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 05:11:29 AM PST, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: On 1/9/2024 9:12 PM, Joly MacFie wrote: > I've always thought that this was kind of a key paradox, that the > Internet's diversity was enabled by a common root. And it is not as if there haven't been active efforts to find a viable alternative. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Jan 10 10:14:28 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:14:28 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> Message-ID: On 1/9/2024 8:14 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > Were you suprised at how well IP scaled > with only minor tweaking along the way? I thought the collected set of revisions, done in the latter 1980s, as the Internet scaled, were considered substantial. Seemed that way to me, at least. And to the extent anyone thinks the congestion control and retransmission details provided for TCP are actually minor: Around 1988 we took over maintenance of a PC stack, from a recently departed engineer, and eventually got very serious customer reports that it was flooding the their network with packets.? Upon inspection, I discovered that the TCP the engineer had written used a fixed, very short timer for retransmission.? Given very high reliability and very high bandwidth of a LAN, this hadn't been a problem.? As soon as the LAN was accessing the wider, slower, less reliable Internet -- as was becoming more common by then -- this timer's model didn't work so well... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jan 10 11:14:02 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 11:14:02 -0800 Subject: [ih] The Declining Reliability of Internet Mail In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1/10/24 10:33, Karl Auerbach wrote: > (This is a repost, the original seems to have vanished, silently, into > the luminiferous ether.) FYI, below is a note I sent to another mailing list, for my local neighborhood group, to explain what, I think, is happening to Internet mail.? One suggestion I received to get reliable email was to use a proprietary service such as Signal.? That makes me sad -- that the Internet email I've used for 50 years has decayed so much.?? For History's sake -- how did that happen...? Jack Haverty --------------------------- Email has seemed to me to be getting less and less reliable lately, with lots of "I never got your email" experiences.? I've been doing email for a long time (I wrote one of the first email systems on the 'net - 50 years ago!), so I just did a "deep dive" back into the technology jungle to figure out what's happening now. I can go through the gory technical details, for anyone who cares about things like SPF, DKIM, DMARC, and other such techno-jargon. But the bottom line is: Email through any kind of "forwarder" (such as this list) is now unreliable, and will get worse. The reason for this is the ever increasing amount of "spam", "phishing", "identity theft", and other such cyber-crimes.?? In response to that, email providers (gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc.) have been strengthening their anti-spam mechanisms, to keep such email out of their customers' (your) mailboxes.?? Many have promised to continue to improve their filtering so you get even less spam in your mailbox. Unfortunately, that also means you'll get less real email as well - essentially anything that travels through any kind of forwarding service may just disappear and never reach your mailbox.?? That includes this message, and anything sent through any other similar "mailing list" address.? I received the following comment from MIT about their alumni mail forwarding service (which I've been using as a forwarder for decades with my jack.haverty at alum.mit.edu address).? It's not encouraging: "/You should also note that new spam rules and policies make it very difficult to offer a reliable forwarding-only service at this point. We have found that email forwarding is becoming less reliable as spam filtering policies get more aggressive. In other words, forwarded mail looks suspicious and causes a red flag in spam filtering systems where mail is forwarded to. This results in the forwarded mail getting flagged as spam or silently dropped (the latter of which is becoming more common). ... Unfortunately email forwarding alone is no longer a viable option and you run the risk of losing/missing mail if you use it strictly as a forwarding address." ///Suggestions: - assume that any email you send to this group (or others) did not get delivered to some of the group members.?? If you want to send a reliable email, you should send it directly to the individual mailboxes, rather than through any mail forwarder. - check your own email service (whoever you use to send and receive mail) to make sure it is up to date with all the technical details of spam filtering.?? The site https://www.mail-tester.com/ is a way to test your own email to judge how likely mail you send will be treated as spam. - if your own email doesn't get an "A" grade, move your email to a different email service.?? I just did this with my jack at 3kitty.org address since my previous mail provider (of 20 years) was not up to date and didn't have a clue. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From karl at iwl.com Wed Jan 10 12:03:28 2024 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:03:28 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet Message-ID: <8a1d2596-34e3-4d34-96c1-7ddb2b5ec546@iwl.com> (This is a second repost, this time via another of my email providers, the original and first repost both seem to have vanished, silently, into the luminiferous ether. Between odd problems such as this and the slow accumulation of various kinds of anti-spam/anti-something-else blocks I begin to wonder if the net isn't perhaps beginning to get a case of arterial blockage.? But so much for my whining ... now onto the topic at hand:) Let's not forget the work of Dave Farber and his students on the Distributed Computer Network (DCS) during that late 1960s at UC Irvine. I first became aware of that work in the rather early 1970s when I was at SDC.? Frank Heinrich (one of Farber's students) had worked on a distributed file system for DCS.? Frank joined our network/operating security research group (Dave Kaufman, Jerry Cole, and myself) and introduced us to the notion of an operating system and applications in which the various parts would exist on separate computers of disjoint architectures and that work would be allocated via a bid-quote-contract exchange, That idea was very much like what has developed today with today's web based computing where pieces of applications go forth on the net to locate service APIs (often reified today via things like REST). (We can also look inwards at how similar ideas, but on a different and smaller scale are used inside modern processors as they schedule work among collections of processing units.) Sun's slogan "The network is the computer" can just as easily turned around to be "The computer is the network." To me this notion of the network as a collection of functions forming a distributed process (filled with all of the kinds of feedback loops and emergent properties of many distributed processes) was a major revelation and a big break from my prior view of a network as a collection of interconnected computers. It had a huge impact on my approach to network management - from dealing with individual computers (and routers and such) to dealing with the overall distributed process.? (That kind of alternate view has, I believe, been of use in some very useful recent ideas, such as the work of Dave Taht and others on bufferbloat along network paths.? I have my own own hopes to introduce kinds of homeostatic self-diagnosing, self-adjusting system to the net that try to deal with the net much the same way that medicine often measures indirect affects and applies indirect influences to adjust and correct the health of individual people.) I nudged and cajoled Dave F. for several years to create something to help us remember the oft overlooked DCS project. Here's the resulting online session: https://youtu.be/Noqf36Fx20s ??? ??? --karl-- From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Jan 10 12:20:38 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:20:38 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <8a1d2596-34e3-4d34-96c1-7ddb2b5ec546@iwl.com> References: <8a1d2596-34e3-4d34-96c1-7ddb2b5ec546@iwl.com> Message-ID: On 1/10/2024 12:03 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > I first became aware of that work in the rather early 1970s when I was > at SDC.? Frank Heinrich (one of Farber's students) had worked on a > distributed file system for DCS. When Dave showed me one of the network cards for DCS, the token-vs-contention battles were underway.? He explained some aspects of the card, including the part that did token resolution at startup. It took a quarter of the real-estate and used a contention-based scheme.? Given this, it seemed clear to me that, absent extremely strong needs for highly predictable access times, this meant that Ethernet would win handily. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From j at shoch.com Wed Jan 10 12:26:07 2024 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:26:07 -0800 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've gotten a little behind on the Internet History list.....let me try to catch up. John Day: Thank you for providing more background on Cyclades, and its underlying transport system, Cigale. Louis Pouzin's group at IRIA was an early advocate of datagram-based networking, and had the vision to see the importance of connecting diverse networks into a "catanet" -- although they were not able to implement that in France. Vint has noted that Gerard Le Lann was a visitor at Stanford (and is acknowledged on the Stanford Internet Plaque that Vint organized): http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/Internet_plaque.jpg The Cerf/Dalal/Sunshine early draft of a TCP spec., Dec. 1974, acknowledges input from IRIA: "In the early phases of the design work, R. Metcalfe, A. McKenzie, H. Zimmerman, G. LeLann, and M. Elie were most helpful in explicating the various issues to be resolved." https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc675 Dave Crocker: You noted that, "... I guess PARC was doing gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers...." Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit: --PUP was the first generation of internetwork protocols, developed at Xerox PARC; XNS was the second generation, primarily developed at Xerox SDD (building upon what was learned in Pup -- adding large unique addresses, etc.). --When the full PUP architecture was first implemented within Xerox, one could use PUP FTP to move a file from an Alto to an account on PARC's MAXC/Tenex machine, and one could use Arpa FTP to move that to another Arpanet host. I do not think there was a higher-level protocol translation to automatically link PUP FTP with Arpa FTP. --The Arpanet was added as a network within the PUP architecture, but primarily as a transit network (as was the Packet Radio Network). The encapsulation of PUP internet packets within Arpanet messages is described and diagrammed in the PUP paper by Boggs, et al.: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/CSL-79-10_Pup_An_Internetwork_Architecture_Jul79.pdf https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1094684 --When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included Nova-based PUP "gateways" (which later led to the Stanford/Cisco multi-protocol routers). Thus, a user on an Alto at Stanford could use PUP FTP to retrieve a file from a PUP file server at CMU -- and the PUP internet packets would transit through the Arpanet. [Xerox, Arpa, and the universities all worked together to enable this.] --The universities had Xerox PUP file servers; I don't know if any of them ran the PUP code on their PDP-10s...maybe someone was there? --XNS came later.... John Levine made a good observation: "It occurs to me that it might not have been obvious that you could run the same network protocol over a 56K DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two together using simple minded gateways, and it'd work." --This is, of course, one of the things that motivated the separate development of Xerox PUP -- we knew that we had to support 3Mbps local Ethernet connections to file servers and print servers, while also supporting 9.6 Kbps inter-site leased phone lines. It was a design objective, and it had to be made to work! --Again, from the Boggs paper: "The communications environment includes several different individual network designs. The dominant one is the "Ethernet" communications network, a local-area broadcast channel with a bandwidth of 3 megabits per second [Metcalfe & Boggs, 1976]. Long-haul communication facilities include the Arpanet, the ARPA Packet Radio network, and a collection of leased lines implementing an Arpanet-style store-and-forward network. These facilities have distinct native protocols and exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in performance." Cheers, John Shoch From karl at iwl.com Wed Jan 10 12:39:15 2024 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 12:39:15 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <8a1d2596-34e3-4d34-96c1-7ddb2b5ec546@iwl.com> Message-ID: <09156c0f-fb54-402e-9a18-4312f03247b8@iwl.com> You are right about complexity of hardware.? Ethernet was genius - a marvel of simplicity in the way it extrapolated from the way we humans talk in a noisy room to the world of electronic communications with minimal inter-device coordination.? Was the Aloha net the first to do this kind of thing? But lest we think Ethernet went smoothly at first, let us pause and remember the original 3COM 3C501 Ethernet card - it took too long to recover from a transmit operation to be ready to receive a response packet from a fast peer.? I think I banged my head against several walls trying to get a 3C501 work on a slow PC/AT using Romkey/Bridgham PC/IP when the other end was an early Sun workstation. DCS did indeed depend on the properties of their network - it was essentially a broadcast medium with an additional interesting function: When the packet went around the ring and came back to the sender there was a flag that indicated whether any device had accepted the message (and copied it from the ring.)? This served as a kind of "someone is interested" acknowledgement with effectively zero cost. (I vaguely remember another similar flag that was set as the packet went around the ring, but my memory has faded about that.) If I remember correctly the actual transmission signal format was based on telco T-1. I get the impression that Dave Farber is rather pleased that his project undermined the IBM patent on token rings. ??? ??? --karl-- On 1/10/24 12:20 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 1/10/2024 12:03 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: >> I first became aware of that work in the rather early 1970s when I >> was at SDC.? Frank Heinrich (one of Farber's students) had worked on >> a distributed file system for DCS. > > When Dave showed me one of the network cards for DCS, the > token-vs-contention battles were underway.? He explained some aspects > of the card, including the part that did token resolution at startup. > > It took a quarter of the real-estate and used a contention-based > scheme.? Given this, it seemed clear to me that, absent extremely > strong needs for highly predictable access times, this meant that > Ethernet would win handily. > > d/ > From sob at sobco.com Wed Jan 10 12:50:08 2024 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott Bradner) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 15:50:08 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <09156c0f-fb54-402e-9a18-4312f03247b8@iwl.com> References: <8a1d2596-34e3-4d34-96c1-7ddb2b5ec546@iwl.com> <09156c0f-fb54-402e-9a18-4312f03247b8@iwl.com> Message-ID: <06DDDED0-387A-4477-B0DA-5F9B78E23918@sobco.com> and the DEC unibus Ethernet card could not receive more than 2 packets back to back woe to anyone (including me) who set their NFS block size to 4K Scott > On Jan 10, 2024, at 3:39?PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > You are right about complexity of hardware. Ethernet was genius - a marvel of simplicity in the way it extrapolated from the way we humans talk in a noisy room to the world of electronic communications with minimal inter-device coordination. Was the Aloha net the first to do this kind of thing? > > But lest we think Ethernet went smoothly at first, let us pause and remember the original 3COM 3C501 Ethernet card - it took too long to recover from a transmit operation to be ready to receive a response packet from a fast peer. I think I banged my head against several walls trying to get a 3C501 work on a slow PC/AT using Romkey/Bridgham PC/IP when the other end was an early Sun workstation. > > DCS did indeed depend on the properties of their network - it was essentially a broadcast medium with an additional interesting function: When the packet went around the ring and came back to the sender there was a flag that indicated whether any device had accepted the message (and copied it from the ring.) This served as a kind of "someone is interested" acknowledgement with effectively zero cost. > > (I vaguely remember another similar flag that was set as the packet went around the ring, but my memory has faded about that.) > > If I remember correctly the actual transmission signal format was based on telco T-1. > > I get the impression that Dave Farber is rather pleased that his project undermined the IBM patent on token rings. > > --karl-- > > > On 1/10/24 12:20 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >> On 1/10/2024 12:03 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: >>> I first became aware of that work in the rather early 1970s when I was at SDC. Frank Heinrich (one of Farber's students) had worked on a distributed file system for DCS. >> >> When Dave showed me one of the network cards for DCS, the token-vs-contention battles were underway. He explained some aspects of the card, including the part that did token resolution at startup. >> >> It took a quarter of the real-estate and used a contention-based scheme. Given this, it seemed clear to me that, absent extremely strong needs for highly predictable access times, this meant that Ethernet would win handily. >> >> d/ >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jan 10 13:28:53 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 21:28:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <3531755b-d7b9-5095-0213-8229082bee20@gmail.com> <75d1881c-e339-41f5-80b7-71d4c8f449de@dcrocker.net> <1337b730-01cf-4c1d-912d-feb34bf8e31b@dcrocker.net> <926479011.11372499.1704909463862@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <915854121.11500212.1704922133625@mail.yahoo.com> More links to DDN Protocol Handbooks in dtic if interested. Their search capabilities may be improving. barbara V1 https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA166324.pdf V2 https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA166325.pdf V4 but? from Internet Protocol Handbook (DNS) https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA214698.pdf? From vint at google.com Wed Jan 10 16:38:08 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 19:38:08 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks John - the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching as long as there is also adequate flow control. The ability to link at different speeds and do store-and-forward is one of the major attractions of packet switching. v On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:26?PM John Shoch via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I've gotten a little behind on the Internet History list.....let me try to > catch up. > > John Day: Thank you for providing more background on Cyclades, and its > underlying transport system, Cigale. > Louis Pouzin's group at IRIA was an early advocate of datagram-based > networking, and had the vision to see the importance of connecting diverse > networks into a "catanet" -- although they were not able to implement that > in France. > Vint has noted that Gerard Le Lann was a visitor at Stanford (and is > acknowledged on the Stanford Internet Plaque that Vint organized): > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/Internet_plaque.jpg > The Cerf/Dalal/Sunshine early draft of a TCP spec., Dec. 1974, acknowledges > input from IRIA: > "In the early phases of the design work, R. Metcalfe, A. McKenzie, H. > Zimmerman, G. LeLann, and M. Elie were most helpful in explicating the > various issues to be resolved." > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc675 > > Dave Crocker: You noted that, "... I guess PARC was doing > gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers...." > Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit: > --PUP was the first generation of internetwork protocols, developed at > Xerox PARC; XNS was the second generation, primarily developed at Xerox > SDD (building upon what was learned in Pup -- adding large unique > addresses, etc.). > --When the full PUP architecture was first implemented within Xerox, one > could use PUP FTP to move a file from an Alto to an account on PARC's > MAXC/Tenex machine, and one could use Arpa FTP to move that to another > Arpanet host. I do not think there was a higher-level protocol translation > to automatically link PUP FTP with Arpa FTP. > --The Arpanet was added as a network within the PUP architecture, but > primarily as a transit network (as was the Packet Radio Network). The > encapsulation of PUP internet packets within Arpanet messages is described > and diagrammed in the PUP paper by Boggs, et al.: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/CSL-79-10_Pup_An_Internetwork_Architecture_Jul79.pdf > https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1094684 > --When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of > universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included > Nova-based PUP "gateways" (which later led to the Stanford/Cisco > multi-protocol routers). Thus, a user on an Alto at Stanford could use PUP > FTP to retrieve a file from a PUP file server at CMU -- and the PUP > internet packets would transit through the Arpanet. [Xerox, Arpa, and the > universities all worked together to enable this.] > --The universities had Xerox PUP file servers; I don't know if any of them > ran the PUP code on their PDP-10s...maybe someone was there? > --XNS came later.... > > John Levine made a good observation: "It occurs to me that it might not > have been obvious that you could run the same network protocol over a 56K > DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two together using simple minded > gateways, and it'd work." > --This is, of course, one of the things that motivated the separate > development of Xerox PUP -- we knew that we had to support 3Mbps local > Ethernet connections to file servers and print servers, while also > supporting 9.6 Kbps inter-site leased phone lines. It was a design > objective, and it had to be made to work! > --Again, from the Boggs paper: > "The communications environment includes several different individual > network designs. The > dominant one is the "Ethernet" communications network, a local-area > broadcast channel with a > bandwidth of 3 megabits per second [Metcalfe & Boggs, 1976]. Long-haul > communication facilities > include the Arpanet, the ARPA Packet Radio network, and a collection of > leased lines implementing > an Arpanet-style store-and-forward network. These facilities have distinct > native protocols and > exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in performance." > > Cheers, > > John Shoch > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 17:07:13 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:07:13 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the inventors (Baran and Davies) was the improvement over message switching. Message switching (and torn tape systems, which message switching was emulating) were analogous to the FIFO Batch systems in computers. Short messages could get stuck behind long ones. Packet switching was analogous to multiprogramming. Short messages were still delayed some, but their 'completion time' was much shorter. (Just like in processor scheduling). This is what attracted Davies to the idea and must have been noticed by Baran, although I haven?t found him mention it explicitly. His focus was mostly on survivability and redundancy. But it seems implicit in much of what he wrote. That makes Virtual Circuit, multiprogramming with contiguous (static) allocation; and datagrams multiprogramming with dynamic allocation. And a couple of years later (1968), Denning showed that dynamic was orders of magnitude less likely to run out of buffers than static allocation. Take care, John > On Jan 10, 2024, at 19:38, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > thanks John - > the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching as > long as there is also adequate flow control. > The ability to link at different speeds and do store-and-forward is one of > the major attractions of packet switching. > v > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:26?PM John Shoch via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> I've gotten a little behind on the Internet History list.....let me try to >> catch up. >> >> John Day: Thank you for providing more background on Cyclades, and its >> underlying transport system, Cigale. >> Louis Pouzin's group at IRIA was an early advocate of datagram-based >> networking, and had the vision to see the importance of connecting diverse >> networks into a "catanet" -- although they were not able to implement that >> in France. >> Vint has noted that Gerard Le Lann was a visitor at Stanford (and is >> acknowledged on the Stanford Internet Plaque that Vint organized): >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/Internet_plaque.jpg >> The Cerf/Dalal/Sunshine early draft of a TCP spec., Dec. 1974, acknowledges >> input from IRIA: >> "In the early phases of the design work, R. Metcalfe, A. McKenzie, H. >> Zimmerman, G. LeLann, and M. Elie were most helpful in explicating the >> various issues to be resolved." >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc675 >> >> Dave Crocker: You noted that, "... I guess PARC was doing >> gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers...." >> Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit: >> --PUP was the first generation of internetwork protocols, developed at >> Xerox PARC; XNS was the second generation, primarily developed at Xerox >> SDD (building upon what was learned in Pup -- adding large unique >> addresses, etc.). >> --When the full PUP architecture was first implemented within Xerox, one >> could use PUP FTP to move a file from an Alto to an account on PARC's >> MAXC/Tenex machine, and one could use Arpa FTP to move that to another >> Arpanet host. I do not think there was a higher-level protocol translation >> to automatically link PUP FTP with Arpa FTP. >> --The Arpanet was added as a network within the PUP architecture, but >> primarily as a transit network (as was the Packet Radio Network). The >> encapsulation of PUP internet packets within Arpanet messages is described >> and diagrammed in the PUP paper by Boggs, et al.: >> >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/CSL-79-10_Pup_An_Internetwork_Architecture_Jul79.pdf >> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1094684 >> --When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of >> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included >> Nova-based PUP "gateways" (which later led to the Stanford/Cisco >> multi-protocol routers). Thus, a user on an Alto at Stanford could use PUP >> FTP to retrieve a file from a PUP file server at CMU -- and the PUP >> internet packets would transit through the Arpanet. [Xerox, Arpa, and the >> universities all worked together to enable this.] >> --The universities had Xerox PUP file servers; I don't know if any of them >> ran the PUP code on their PDP-10s...maybe someone was there? >> --XNS came later.... >> >> John Levine made a good observation: "It occurs to me that it might not >> have been obvious that you could run the same network protocol over a 56K >> DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two together using simple minded >> gateways, and it'd work." >> --This is, of course, one of the things that motivated the separate >> development of Xerox PUP -- we knew that we had to support 3Mbps local >> Ethernet connections to file servers and print servers, while also >> supporting 9.6 Kbps inter-site leased phone lines. It was a design >> objective, and it had to be made to work! >> --Again, from the Boggs paper: >> "The communications environment includes several different individual >> network designs. The >> dominant one is the "Ethernet" communications network, a local-area >> broadcast channel with a >> bandwidth of 3 megabits per second [Metcalfe & Boggs, 1976]. Long-haul >> communication facilities >> include the Arpanet, the ARPA Packet Radio network, and a collection of >> leased lines implementing >> an Arpanet-style store-and-forward network. These facilities have distinct >> native protocols and >> exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in performance." >> >> Cheers, >> >> John Shoch >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > until further notice > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Wed Jan 10 17:21:24 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:21:24 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 8:07?PM John Day wrote: > Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the > inventors (Baran and Davies) was the improvement over message switching. > no disagreement. I would say improvement over message switching and circuit switching. > > Message switching (and torn tape systems, which message switching was > emulating) were analogous to the FIFO Batch systems in computers. Short > messages could get stuck behind long ones. Packet switching was analogous > to multiprogramming. Short messages were still delayed some, but their > 'completion time' was much shorter. (Just like in processor scheduling). > This is what attracted Davies to the idea and must have been noticed by > Baran, although I haven?t found him mention it explicitly. His focus was > mostly on survivability and redundancy. But it seems implicit in much of > what he wrote. > > That makes Virtual Circuit, multiprogramming with contiguous (static) > allocation; and datagrams multiprogramming with dynamic allocation. > > And a couple of years later (1968), Denning showed that dynamic was orders > of magnitude less likely to run out of buffers than static allocation. > > Take care, > John > > > On Jan 10, 2024, at 19:38, Vint Cerf via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > thanks John - > > the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching > as > > long as there is also adequate flow control. > > The ability to link at different speeds and do store-and-forward is one > of > > the major attractions of packet switching. > > v > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:26?PM John Shoch via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> I've gotten a little behind on the Internet History list.....let me try > to > >> catch up. > >> > >> John Day: Thank you for providing more background on Cyclades, and its > >> underlying transport system, Cigale. > >> Louis Pouzin's group at IRIA was an early advocate of datagram-based > >> networking, and had the vision to see the importance of connecting > diverse > >> networks into a "catanet" -- although they were not able to implement > that > >> in France. > >> Vint has noted that Gerard Le Lann was a visitor at Stanford (and is > >> acknowledged on the Stanford Internet Plaque that Vint organized): > >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/Internet_plaque.jpg > >> The Cerf/Dalal/Sunshine early draft of a TCP spec., Dec. 1974, > acknowledges > >> input from IRIA: > >> "In the early phases of the design work, R. Metcalfe, A. McKenzie, H. > >> Zimmerman, G. LeLann, and M. Elie were most helpful in explicating the > >> various issues to be resolved." > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc675 > >> > >> Dave Crocker: You noted that, "... I guess PARC was doing > >> gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers...." > >> Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit: > >> --PUP was the first generation of internetwork protocols, developed at > >> Xerox PARC; XNS was the second generation, primarily developed at Xerox > >> SDD (building upon what was learned in Pup -- adding large unique > >> addresses, etc.). > >> --When the full PUP architecture was first implemented within Xerox, one > >> could use PUP FTP to move a file from an Alto to an account on PARC's > >> MAXC/Tenex machine, and one could use Arpa FTP to move that to another > >> Arpanet host. I do not think there was a higher-level protocol > translation > >> to automatically link PUP FTP with Arpa FTP. > >> --The Arpanet was added as a network within the PUP architecture, but > >> primarily as a transit network (as was the Packet Radio Network). The > >> encapsulation of PUP internet packets within Arpanet messages is > described > >> and diagrammed in the PUP paper by Boggs, et al.: > >> > >> > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/CSL-79-10_Pup_An_Internetwork_Architecture_Jul79.pdf > >> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1094684 > >> --When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of > >> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it > included > >> Nova-based PUP "gateways" (which later led to the Stanford/Cisco > >> multi-protocol routers). Thus, a user on an Alto at Stanford could use > PUP > >> FTP to retrieve a file from a PUP file server at CMU -- and the PUP > >> internet packets would transit through the Arpanet. [Xerox, Arpa, and > the > >> universities all worked together to enable this.] > >> --The universities had Xerox PUP file servers; I don't know if any of > them > >> ran the PUP code on their PDP-10s...maybe someone was there? > >> --XNS came later.... > >> > >> John Levine made a good observation: "It occurs to me that it might not > >> have been obvious that you could run the same network protocol over a > 56K > >> DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two together using simple minded > >> gateways, and it'd work." > >> --This is, of course, one of the things that motivated the separate > >> development of Xerox PUP -- we knew that we had to support 3Mbps local > >> Ethernet connections to file servers and print servers, while also > >> supporting 9.6 Kbps inter-site leased phone lines. It was a design > >> objective, and it had to be made to work! > >> --Again, from the Boggs paper: > >> "The communications environment includes several different individual > >> network designs. The > >> dominant one is the "Ethernet" communications network, a local-area > >> broadcast channel with a > >> bandwidth of 3 megabits per second [Metcalfe & Boggs, 1976]. Long-haul > >> communication facilities > >> include the Arpanet, the ARPA Packet Radio network, and a collection of > >> leased lines implementing > >> an Arpanet-style store-and-forward network. These facilities have > distinct > >> native protocols and > >> exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in performance." > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> John Shoch > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > > Vint Cerf > > Google, LLC > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > > Reston, VA 20190 > > +1 (571) 213 1346 <(571)%20213-1346> > > > > > > until further notice > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Jan 10 17:43:28 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:43:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Absolutely, but they kept finding more creative ways to do static allocation, e.g., ATM, MPLS, etc. ;-) Denning?s result was rediscovered at least 3 times, the last in 2004. ;-) > On Jan 10, 2024, at 20:21, Vint Cerf wrote: > > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 8:07?PM John Day > wrote: >> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the inventors (Baran and Davies) was the improvement over message switching. > > no disagreement. I would say improvement over message switching and circuit switching. >> >> Message switching (and torn tape systems, which message switching was emulating) were analogous to the FIFO Batch systems in computers. Short messages could get stuck behind long ones. Packet switching was analogous to multiprogramming. Short messages were still delayed some, but their 'completion time' was much shorter. (Just like in processor scheduling). This is what attracted Davies to the idea and must have been noticed by Baran, although I haven?t found him mention it explicitly. His focus was mostly on survivability and redundancy. But it seems implicit in much of what he wrote. >> >> That makes Virtual Circuit, multiprogramming with contiguous (static) allocation; and datagrams multiprogramming with dynamic allocation. >> >> And a couple of years later (1968), Denning showed that dynamic was orders of magnitude less likely to run out of buffers than static allocation. >> >> Take care, >> John >> >> > On Jan 10, 2024, at 19:38, Vint Cerf via Internet-history > wrote: >> > >> > thanks John - >> > the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching as >> > long as there is also adequate flow control. >> > The ability to link at different speeds and do store-and-forward is one of >> > the major attractions of packet switching. >> > v >> > >> > >> > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:26?PM John Shoch via Internet-history < >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > wrote: >> > >> >> I've gotten a little behind on the Internet History list.....let me try to >> >> catch up. >> >> >> >> John Day: Thank you for providing more background on Cyclades, and its >> >> underlying transport system, Cigale. >> >> Louis Pouzin's group at IRIA was an early advocate of datagram-based >> >> networking, and had the vision to see the importance of connecting diverse >> >> networks into a "catanet" -- although they were not able to implement that >> >> in France. >> >> Vint has noted that Gerard Le Lann was a visitor at Stanford (and is >> >> acknowledged on the Stanford Internet Plaque that Vint organized): >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/Internet_plaque.jpg >> >> The Cerf/Dalal/Sunshine early draft of a TCP spec., Dec. 1974, acknowledges >> >> input from IRIA: >> >> "In the early phases of the design work, R. Metcalfe, A. McKenzie, H. >> >> Zimmerman, G. LeLann, and M. Elie were most helpful in explicating the >> >> various issues to be resolved." >> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc675 >> >> >> >> Dave Crocker: You noted that, "... I guess PARC was doing >> >> gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers...." >> >> Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit: >> >> --PUP was the first generation of internetwork protocols, developed at >> >> Xerox PARC; XNS was the second generation, primarily developed at Xerox >> >> SDD (building upon what was learned in Pup -- adding large unique >> >> addresses, etc.). >> >> --When the full PUP architecture was first implemented within Xerox, one >> >> could use PUP FTP to move a file from an Alto to an account on PARC's >> >> MAXC/Tenex machine, and one could use Arpa FTP to move that to another >> >> Arpanet host. I do not think there was a higher-level protocol translation >> >> to automatically link PUP FTP with Arpa FTP. >> >> --The Arpanet was added as a network within the PUP architecture, but >> >> primarily as a transit network (as was the Packet Radio Network). The >> >> encapsulation of PUP internet packets within Arpanet messages is described >> >> and diagrammed in the PUP paper by Boggs, et al.: >> >> >> >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/CSL-79-10_Pup_An_Internetwork_Architecture_Jul79.pdf >> >> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1094684 >> >> --When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of >> >> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included >> >> Nova-based PUP "gateways" (which later led to the Stanford/Cisco >> >> multi-protocol routers). Thus, a user on an Alto at Stanford could use PUP >> >> FTP to retrieve a file from a PUP file server at CMU -- and the PUP >> >> internet packets would transit through the Arpanet. [Xerox, Arpa, and the >> >> universities all worked together to enable this.] >> >> --The universities had Xerox PUP file servers; I don't know if any of them >> >> ran the PUP code on their PDP-10s...maybe someone was there? >> >> --XNS came later.... >> >> >> >> John Levine made a good observation: "It occurs to me that it might not >> >> have been obvious that you could run the same network protocol over a 56K >> >> DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two together using simple minded >> >> gateways, and it'd work." >> >> --This is, of course, one of the things that motivated the separate >> >> development of Xerox PUP -- we knew that we had to support 3Mbps local >> >> Ethernet connections to file servers and print servers, while also >> >> supporting 9.6 Kbps inter-site leased phone lines. It was a design >> >> objective, and it had to be made to work! >> >> --Again, from the Boggs paper: >> >> "The communications environment includes several different individual >> >> network designs. The >> >> dominant one is the "Ethernet" communications network, a local-area >> >> broadcast channel with a >> >> bandwidth of 3 megabits per second [Metcalfe & Boggs, 1976]. Long-haul >> >> communication facilities >> >> include the Arpanet, the ARPA Packet Radio network, and a collection of >> >> leased lines implementing >> >> an Arpanet-style store-and-forward network. These facilities have distinct >> >> native protocols and >> >> exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in performance." >> >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> >> John Shoch >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> > >> > >> > -- >> > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >> > Vint Cerf >> > Google, LLC >> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor >> > Reston, VA 20190 >> > +1 (571) 213 1346 >> > >> > >> > until further notice >> > -- >> > Internet-history mailing list >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > until further notice > > > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jan 10 18:29:06 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 02:29:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> In response? to Dave Crocker's post about tcp.? Can't seem to send email reliably to the list so keep removing extraneous info to see if? I can eventually send to the list. barbara On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 10:38:19 AM PST, Barbara Denny wrote: ?TCP didn't work very well over SINCGARS which was a port of packet radio protocols to the SINCGARS combat net radio.? Our project was focused only on the network radio node issues (below transport). To do a demo we decided to use some app that used TCP.? There was retransmission at the link layerbut other things made that slow (perhaps channel acquisition? ).? Just to get through the demo I had to turn off all protocol support in the network for loss packets. That made me think cross-layer interactions were important but? it took many more years before work in that area. barbara From vgcerf at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 18:34:30 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 21:34:30 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: barbara, what date roughly was this demo? Just wondering which version and implementation of TCP was in use at that time. v On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 9:29?PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > In response to Dave Crocker's post about tcp. Can't seem to send email > reliably to the list so keep removing extraneous info to see if I can > eventually send to the list. > > barbara > On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 10:38:19 AM PST, Barbara Denny < > b_a_denny at yahoo.com> wrote: > > TCP didn't work very well over SINCGARS which was a port of packet > radio protocols to the SINCGARS combat net radio. Our project was focused > only on the network radio node issues (below transport). To do a demo we > decided to use some app that used TCP. There was retransmission at the > link layerbut other things made that slow (perhaps channel acquisition? ). > Just to get through the demo I had to turn off all protocol support in the > network for loss packets. That made me think cross-layer interactions were > important but it took many more years before work in that area. > barbara > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jan 10 18:49:25 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 18:49:25 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> Hi Barbara, Lots of email configurations changed with the new year, part of efforts to fight spam.?? That includes your email provider - yahoo: https://en-global-stage.help.yahoo.com/kb/SLN24050.html It appears from this announcement that yahoo will now reject email allegedly coming from yahoo but not arriving via one of yahoo's own servers. Mail redistributors, like the internet-history list and many others, mangle messages as they redistribute them so that they appear to be spam when they get to their destinations.?? So your email provider (yahoo) is now rejecting email from you (b_a_denny at yahoo.com) to the internet-history list because it's coming from isoc.org rather than from yahoo. Your emails might be getting to some people on the list, depending on how their email server treats apparent spam. For reasons I can't imagine, the DMARC mechanism allows mail services to specify a percentage of suspicious emails that should be just discarded.? 100% trashes everything, 0% nothing, and it can be set anywhere in between.?? So you may get *some* of your emails if the setting is, for example, 50%.?? This confused me a lot recently until I figured out what was going on. Bottom line: Email through mailing lists is not reliable and will be getting worse. You should get this email because I sent it directly to your yahoo address.?? You may or may not get the copy coming through internet-history at elists.isoc.org Sorry, I don't know of any solution other than moving to some other email provider....that's what I did a few weeks ago. Jack On 1/10/24 18:29, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > In response? to Dave Crocker's post about tcp.? Can't seem to send email reliably to the list so keep removing extraneous info to see if? I can eventually send to the list. > > barbara > On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 10:38:19 AM PST, Barbara Denny wrote: > > ?TCP didn't work very well over SINCGARS which was a port of packet radio protocols to the SINCGARS combat net radio.? Our project was focused only on the network radio node issues (below transport). To do a demo we decided to use some app that used TCP.? There was retransmission at the link layerbut other things made that slow (perhaps channel acquisition? ).? Just to get through the demo I had to turn off all protocol support in the network for loss packets. That made me think cross-layer interactions were important but? it took many more years before work in that area. > barbara > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jan 10 19:06:55 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 03:06:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48756403.70574.1704942415282@mail.yahoo.com> I believe this was the late 80s.? I wish I could remember more about what? TCP version, implementation and host we were using.? I am pretty sure we also mentioned this in some kind of? report to the client (CECOM? at Fort Monmouth).? I think the demo design was more about showing progress in the implementation of the protocol suite in the packet applique, i.e. just basic functionality of passing user data packets.? FYI the packet applique was a separate hardware/controller box to SINCGARs which had all the packet radio networking support. I am going through stuff in my garage so if I can find more info about the SINCGARs project I can perhaps nail down the dates better. I will let you know. barbara On Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 06:34:43 PM PST, vinton cerf wrote: barbara, what date roughly was this demo? Just wondering which version and implementation of TCP was in use at that time.v ? From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Wed Jan 10 19:46:24 2024 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 22:46:24 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 8:44?PM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Denning?s result was rediscovered at least 3 times, the last in 2004. ;-) Then it's about due for re-rediscovery yet again. (Every generation thinks they discovered sex, drugs/booze, and virtual memory. Have the kids invented L4 Cache yet?) From lk at cs.ucla.edu Wed Jan 10 20:56:22 2024 From: lk at cs.ucla.edu (Leonard Kleinrock) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 20:56:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <387013811.6387448.1704948982286.JavaMail.zimbra@mail.cs.ucla.edu> To add to this chain of messages, it is perhaps worthwhile to point out that the first mathematical mode and proof that packetization mitigates the problem stated by John ?Short messages could get stuck behind long ones.? was first published in April 1962, to wit, ?L. Kleinrock, "Information Flow in Large Communication Nets," RLE Quarterly Progress Report, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, April 1962.? Len Sent from my iPhone > On Jan 10, 2024, at 5:07?PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the inventors (Baran and Davies) was the improvement over message switching. > > Message switching (and torn tape systems, which message switching was emulating) were analogous to the FIFO Batch systems in computers. Short messages could get stuck behind long ones. Packet switching was analogous to multiprogramming. Short messages were still delayed some, but their 'completion time' was much shorter. (Just like in processor scheduling). This is what attracted Davies to the idea and must have been noticed by Baran, although I haven?t found him mention it explicitly. His focus was mostly on survivability and redundancy. But it seems implicit in much of what he wrote. > > That makes Virtual Circuit, multiprogramming with contiguous (static) allocation; and datagrams multiprogramming with dynamic allocation. > > And a couple of years later (1968), Denning showed that dynamic was orders of magnitude less likely to run out of buffers than static allocation. > > Take care, > John > > > On Jan 10, 2024, at 19:38, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > > thanks John - > > the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching as > > long as there is also adequate flow control. > > The ability to link at different speeds and do store-and-forward is one of > > the major attractions of packet switching. > > v > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 10, 2024 at 3:26?PM John Shoch via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> I've gotten a little behind on the Internet History list.....let me try to > >> catch up. > >> > >> John Day: Thank you for providing more background on Cyclades, and its > >> underlying transport system, Cigale. > >> Louis Pouzin's group at IRIA was an early advocate of datagram-based > >> networking, and had the vision to see the importance of connecting diverse > >> networks into a "catanet" -- although they were not able to implement that > >> in France. > >> Vint has noted that Gerard Le Lann was a visitor at Stanford (and is > >> acknowledged on the Stanford Internet Plaque that Vint organized): > >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/history/Internet_plaque.jpg > >> The Cerf/Dalal/Sunshine early draft of a TCP spec., Dec. 1974, acknowledges > >> input from IRIA: > >> "In the early phases of the design work, R. Metcalfe, A. McKenzie, H. > >> Zimmerman, G. LeLann, and M. Elie were most helpful in explicating the > >> various issues to be resolved." > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc675 > >> > >> Dave Crocker: You noted that, "... I guess PARC was doing > >> gatewaying/translation between Arpanet/XNS peers...." > >> Perhaps I can elaborate a little bit: > >> --PUP was the first generation of internetwork protocols, developed at > >> Xerox PARC; XNS was the second generation, primarily developed at Xerox > >> SDD (building upon what was learned in Pup -- adding large unique > >> addresses, etc.). > >> --When the full PUP architecture was first implemented within Xerox, one > >> could use PUP FTP to move a file from an Alto to an account on PARC's > >> MAXC/Tenex machine, and one could use Arpa FTP to move that to another > >> Arpanet host. I do not think there was a higher-level protocol translation > >> to automatically link PUP FTP with Arpa FTP. > >> --The Arpanet was added as a network within the PUP architecture, but > >> primarily as a transit network (as was the Packet Radio Network). The > >> encapsulation of PUP internet packets within Arpanet messages is described > >> and diagrammed in the PUP paper by Boggs, et al.: > >> > >> http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/CSL-79-10_Pup_An_Internetwork_Architecture_Jul79.pdf > >> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/1094684 > >> --When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of > >> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included > >> Nova-based PUP "gateways" (which later led to the Stanford/Cisco > >> multi-protocol routers). Thus, a user on an Alto at Stanford could use PUP > >> FTP to retrieve a file from a PUP file server at CMU -- and the PUP > >> internet packets would transit through the Arpanet. [Xerox, Arpa, and the > >> universities all worked together to enable this.] > >> --The universities had Xerox PUP file servers; I don't know if any of them > >> ran the PUP code on their PDP-10s...maybe someone was there? > >> --XNS came later.... > >> > >> John Levine made a good observation: "It occurs to me that it might not > >> have been obvious that you could run the same network protocol over a 56K > >> DDS line and a 3Mb Ethernet, glue the two together using simple minded > >> gateways, and it'd work." > >> --This is, of course, one of the things that motivated the separate > >> development of Xerox PUP -- we knew that we had to support 3Mbps local > >> Ethernet connections to file servers and print servers, while also > >> supporting 9.6 Kbps inter-site leased phone lines. It was a design > >> objective, and it had to be made to work! > >> --Again, from the Boggs paper: > >> "The communications environment includes several different individual > >> network designs. The > >> dominant one is the "Ethernet" communications network, a local-area > >> broadcast channel with a > >> bandwidth of 3 megabits per second [Metcalfe & Boggs, 1976]. Long-haul > >> communication facilities > >> include the Arpanet, the ARPA Packet Radio network, and a collection of > >> leased lines implementing > >> an Arpanet-style store-and-forward network. These facilities have distinct > >> native protocols and > >> exhibit as much as three orders of magnitude difference in performance." > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> John Shoch > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > > Vint Cerf > > Google, LLC > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > > Reston, VA 20190 > > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > > > > until further notice > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Thu Jan 11 08:33:37 2024 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 11:33:37 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At a conceptual level, it really does start with Licklider - though concepts of Akashic Memory & Cosmic Consciousness have been with us a LOT longer, as was the "Victorian Internet" of teletypes, and Bush's "As We May Think." Personally, I was fortunate to arrive at MIT in the fall of 1971, and immediately started hanging around 545 Tech Square, and of course, got an account on the MIT-AI PDP-10.? Licklider was back at MIT.? Greenblatt was sleeping under his desk, Gates was at Harvard, and a few weeks after my arrival, Ray Tomlinson sent the first ARPANET email.? Compuserve was in business. The progress, over the next 4 years, was absolutely astounding: - email lists replaced the interoffice mail packets that held the NWG & IETF together (not sure when the IETF came together) - internet "governance," by standards and contracts, was off and running - virtual teams & communities formed overnight - mit.bboard, techinfo, and the DATACOMPUTER presaged USENET, gopher, and the Web - epublishing was off and running - ecommerce was off and running (proposals, contracts, progress reports flowing between Tech Square & DARPA) - e-education was off and running (project Athena) - Berkeley Community Memory launched in 1973 (presaging the rise of bulletin boards, fidonet, freenets, and my own work on "civic networking") We can debate specific details & timing - but the "spirit" of the Internet was going strong from well before the first packets crossed the ARPANET.? Even then, we were starting to think about "network-centric operations," and beginning to transition to network-centric organizations, industries, economies, societies .. on our way to a network-centric world. Cheers, Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 11 09:14:34 2024 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:14:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 Message-ID: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From:John Shoch > When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of > universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included > Nova-based PUP "gateways" Umm, no. I cannot speak with certainty about what Stanford and CMU got, but I can say with great certainty that all that MIT got was several UNIBUS Experimental Ethernet cards: https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_Experimental_Ethernet_interface I believe, from scraps I heard about what happened at Stanford and CMU, that it was the same there. We had to write code to drive them; in the MIT AI Lab, the MIT-AI ITS machine's CHAOS-11 got a CHAOS->EFTP protocol translator (so they could print files on the Dover); in LCS, I added code the 'C Gateway' to both talk to the Experimental Ethernet (we sent IP packets over it; I assume that since PARC was on the fringes [yes, I know about the 'hints' early on] of the TCP/IP effort, they had already allocated an Experimental Ethernet packet type for IP, and we didn't have to ask for one), and speak PUP. (Although the only physical network on which it was prepared to send PUPs was our sole Experimental Ethernet - so why I wrote a PUP forwarder is a mystery to me - there was no place to send PUPs _to_.) (The code for both survives - I was just looking at it to give authoritative answers about the CGW code. The CHAOS-11 code survives, too. If anyone is curious.) Nobody at MIT made real use of PUPs; in LCS, we had IP, and in the AI Lab, they has CHAOS (and of course both had our own LANs, too). Dave Clark wrote a TCP for the Alto, and IIRC it was possible to TELNET from an Alto to a TCP/IP host. I suspect that most of the IP traffic on the Experimental Ethernet was TFTP packets headed to the Dover Spooler (which talked TFTP on one side, and EFTP on the other - although not via a protocol translator, I think; IIRC it 'buffered' files on disk). > which later led to the Stanford/Cisco multi-protocol routers) >From what I recall of Yeager's multi-protocol router at Stanford, that was true there, but I am not sure about MIT. (My memory is not clear on how much of an influence PUP was; see below for more - I now think it was not much.) At MIT, we had two competing protocol families entrenched (well entrenched, in the case of CHAOS; less so, for TCP/IP) before Ethernet and PUP arrived, and thus had a prior incentive to uncover the multi-protocol router approach. There is a document from Dave Clark, "MIT Campus Network Implementation", iniial draft dated October 1982 (which I don't have in front of me, although I may have a copy buried in boxes somewhere), the one I do have is a later one, from June 1983. It captures an intermediate stage in the thinking of how multiple protocol families would be handled on the proposed MIT Campus Network. It talks about two approaches, the first being an "MIT Standard Network Protocol", which would be a ubiquitous packet transport service. My recollection is that this was the only approach mentioned in the older draft - and that I didn't think it was practical. My take came from several previous attempts to do something like this for CHAOS and IP (the ill-fated 'MIT Protocol Word', or "Muppet"), which had utterly failed to get any traction. So I proposed the "multi-protocol spine" approach, and argued Dave into switching to that that approach in the later draft. To answer charges that multi-protocol routers were impractical, I wrote multiple forwarders for the CGW (which was started, IIRC, to show that one could get acceptable performance from a packet switch written in a HLL; the prevous one I did was a mind-blowing kludge written in MACRO-11, whuch used intense macrology to instantiate all N^2 packet patha in a router with N interfaces - code also available). Which would explain why I wrote a PUP forwarder for it, when there was no earthly operational use for it. Dave's later draft refers to the CGW (not by name, though - merely a 'if you think this is not feasible, we have one working'). Dave's draft states that the protocol families the MIT Campus Network needed to support were CHAOS, DECNet, X.25, and IP. PUP is not mentioned (except in passing, as one of the protocols implemented on the 'see, it can be done' machine). This makes sense; as I mentioned, except for the CHAOS-11, no MIT machine emitted PUPs at all. Noel PS: It's mildly irritating that Wikipedia credits Yeager for being "the inventor of a packet-switched, "Ships in the Night", multiple-protocol router". It was true independent co-invention; I don't think either one of us had heard a word of what the other was doing. From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Jan 11 10:36:31 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 18:36:31 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1994212410.384974.1704998191410@mail.yahoo.com> If anyone is interested in CMU at the time I can see if I can track down Mike Accetta.? He was involved with CMU's gateway as he showed up at the special interest group meeting at ISI to talk about it. He was a good friend of mine during my time at CMU but my contact info is way out of date for him. barbara On Thursday, January 11, 2024 at 09:14:47 AM PST, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: ? ? > From:John Shoch ? ? > When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of ? ? > universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included ? ? > Nova-based PUP "gateways" Umm, no. I cannot speak with certainty about what Stanford and CMU got, but I can say with great certainty that all that MIT got was several UNIBUS Experimental Ethernet cards: ? https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_Experimental_Ethernet_interface I believe, from scraps I heard about what happened at Stanford and CMU, that it was the same there. We had to write code to drive them; in the MIT AI Lab, the MIT-AI ITS machine's CHAOS-11 got a CHAOS->EFTP protocol translator (so they could print files on the Dover); in LCS, I added code the 'C Gateway' to both talk to the Experimental Ethernet (we sent IP packets over it; I assume that since PARC was on the fringes [yes, I know about the 'hints' early on] of the TCP/IP effort, they had already allocated an Experimental Ethernet packet type for IP, and we didn't have to ask for one), and speak PUP. (Although the only physical network on which it was prepared to send PUPs was our sole Experimental Ethernet - so why I wrote a PUP forwarder is a mystery to me - there was no place to send PUPs _to_.) (The code for both survives - I was just looking at it to give authoritative answers about the CGW code. The CHAOS-11 code survives, too. If anyone is curious.) Nobody at MIT made real use of PUPs; in LCS, we had IP, and in the AI Lab, they has CHAOS (and of course both had our own LANs, too). Dave Clark wrote a TCP for the Alto, and IIRC it was possible to TELNET from an Alto to a TCP/IP host. I suspect that most of the IP traffic on the Experimental Ethernet was TFTP packets headed to the Dover Spooler (which talked TFTP on one side, and EFTP on the other - although not via a protocol translator, I think; IIRC it 'buffered' files on disk). ? ? > which later led to the Stanford/Cisco multi-protocol routers) >From what I recall of Yeager's multi-protocol router at Stanford, that was true there, but I am not sure about MIT. (My memory is not clear on how much of an influence PUP was; see below for more - I now think it was not much.) At MIT, we had two competing protocol families entrenched (well entrenched, in the case of CHAOS; less so, for TCP/IP) before Ethernet and PUP arrived, and thus had a prior incentive to uncover the multi-protocol router approach. There is a document from Dave Clark, "MIT Campus Network Implementation", iniial draft dated October 1982 (which I don't have in front of me, although I may have a copy buried in boxes somewhere), the one I do have is a later one, from June 1983. It captures an intermediate stage in the thinking of how multiple protocol families would be handled on the proposed MIT Campus Network. It talks about two approaches, the first being an "MIT Standard Network Protocol", which would be a ubiquitous packet transport service. My recollection is that this was the only approach mentioned in the older draft - and that I didn't think it was practical. My take came from several previous attempts to do something like this for CHAOS and IP (the ill-fated 'MIT Protocol Word', or "Muppet"), which had utterly failed to get any traction. So I proposed the "multi-protocol spine" approach, and argued Dave into switching to that that approach in the later draft. To answer charges that multi-protocol routers were impractical, I wrote multiple forwarders for the CGW (which was started, IIRC, to show that one could get acceptable performance from a packet switch written in a HLL; the prevous one I did was a mind-blowing kludge written in MACRO-11, whuch used intense macrology to instantiate all N^2 packet patha in a router with N interfaces - code also available). Which would explain why I wrote a PUP forwarder for it, when there was no earthly operational use for it. Dave's later draft refers to the CGW (not by name, though - merely a 'if you think this is not feasible, we have one working'). Dave's draft states that the protocol families the MIT Campus Network needed to support were CHAOS, DECNet, X.25, and IP. PUP is not mentioned (except in passing, as one of the protocols implemented on the 'see, it can be done' machine). This makes sense; as I mentioned, except for the CHAOS-11, no MIT machine emitted PUPs at all. ? ? Noel PS: It's mildly irritating that Wikipedia credits Yeager for being "the inventor of a packet-switched, "Ships in the Night", multiple-protocol router". It was true independent co-invention; I don't think either one of us had heard a word of what the other was doing. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jan 11 12:10:58 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 12:10:58 -0800 Subject: [ih] Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> On 1/10/2024 6:49 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Hi Barbara, > > Lots of email configurations changed with the new year, part of > efforts to fight spam. Large email service providers have been on a long march towards increasingly restrictive rules, for the mail they will accept. The onslaught of email abuse obviously creates a clear and present danger.? The challenge in formulating acceptance changes is the potential for collateral damage to legitimate users. An obvious example is legitimate mail that gets into the spam folder. Less obvious is the common convention, for mailing lists, of changing the From: field from whatever the author provided, to a different email address and, usually, different 'display' string are used. This is done to avoid having a final receiving site discard the message, if the From: field domain name fails a strict DMARC test. A collateral damage is that a recipient's MUA will think that different messages from the same author are actually from different authors, since they use different From: email addresses, even though the author sent using the same address. DMARC was designed for use in a very constrained, 'direct' scenario from a bulk sender.? Yahoo was the first to repurpose it for general consumer email from their platform, in order to deal with a service-destroying problem they were having that was/is due to their business and operations model.? This has been characterized as externalizing an internal problem. The collateral damage does not create enough complaints from these receiving platforms' users to motivate the DMARCian platforms to do things differently.? It largely affects others. Hence classing the action as having an externalized effect. The broader use of DMARC is seen as having a beneficial effect on the handling of email abuse, and so the damage is considered a tolerable effect. The nature of the DMARC use effectively makes the From: field serve the role Sender: was originally intended to cover.? That is, it indicates a handling agent, not necessarily the actual author. A couple of years ago, I pushed through a specification for an Author: header field, to provide a place for a retained specification of the actual author.? The premise is that it would not need changing as the message goes through mailing list massaging.? To my knowledge, no one has implemented it. And this goes to the deeper and more serious problem:? movement towards making email handling more strict -- as it needs to be in response to ongoing, massive abuse -- has not been accompanied by adjustments at the user level to compensate, to maintain a UX that is otherwise preferred by users.? Developers and operators simply have no current incentive to make such changes. > For reasons I can't imagine, the DMARC mechanism allows mail services > to specify a percentage of suspicious emails that should be just > discarded. I, too, was amused as this was added, during specification discussions.? But operators are used to being able to introduce things incrementally, to limit damage if there is a problem.? And DMARC development was dominated by such folk. Fwiw, I believe this 'feature' has been dropped from the DMARCbis specification.? If it ever gets published. > Bottom line: Email through mailing lists is not reliable and will be > getting worse. If you have ever lived in a small, homogeneous town and then moved to a very large, unruly city, you will have made the same complaint about the differences. I moved from Los Angeles to Newark, Delaware.? In LA, a very long time ago, I moved from West LA to West Hollywood. I went into the nearby West Hollywood grocery store that was part of the chain I frequented in West LA.? I wanted to cash a check and I showed them the check-cashing ID card I'd gotten from the West LA. store.? The West Hollywood folk would not cash my check.? (I had to drive 10 miles back to the other store to get the check cashed.) In Newark -- base population, 25K, with another 25K of students -- I went into a small coffee store -- a remarkable novelty in those days -- and needed to pay with a check.? I warned the owner that it was from an out of state bank and I had an out of state drivers license, since I had not transferred things, yet.? The owner looked at me and asked if it would bounce.? I said no, and he took it. The Internet and email, then vs. now, have similar differences. The real problem is a failure to adapt things to these underlying changes. > You should get this email because I sent it directly to your yahoo > address.?? You may or may not get the copy coming through > internet-history at elists.isoc.org I don't see the basis for this expectation of failure, for this case. The ISOC mailer makes the unpleasant-but-common adjustment to the From: field. > Sorry, I don't know of any solution other than moving to some other > email provider....that's what I did a few weeks ago. Alas, DMARC adoption has become fairly widespread among email platform providers. So, for example, fastmail seems to use it with my bbiw.net domain -- I didn't specify this -- but hostinger does not, for my dcrocker.net domain. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From johnl at iecc.com Thu Jan 11 13:40:42 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 11 Jan 2024 16:40:42 -0500 Subject: [ih] fun with mail, Early History of the Internet In-Reply-To: <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240111214042.820208070371@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >Lots of email configurations changed with the new year, part of efforts >to fight spam.?? That includes your email provider - yahoo: > >https://en-global-stage.help.yahoo.com/kb/SLN24050.html > >It appears from this announcement that yahoo will now reject email >allegedly coming from yahoo but not arriving via one of yahoo's own >servers. Actually, that's been largely true since 2014. Most mailing list software has workarounds for overly strict DMARC rules. If ISOC isn't using them I can make some inquiries. R's, John PS: >For reasons I can't imagine, the DMARC mechanism allows mail services to >specify a percentage of suspicious emails that should be just >discarded. .... That was a mistake. Nobody uses anything other than 0% or 100% and the percentage option is gone from the upcoming DMARC update. If a recipient is enforcing DMARC at all, they enforce it on all of their mail. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jan 11 14:35:02 2024 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 17:35:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 Message-ID: <20240111223502.CFF1F18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Vint Cerf > the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching > From: John Day > Packet switching had many advantages .. was the improvement over > message switching Packet switching - at least non-virtual-circuit packet switching (I'm not sure what the current technical term is for that now - would 'datagram packet switching' be it?), the flavour of packet switching everyone takes for granted these days, when 'packet switching' is used - has one key advantage, for a global-scale network, in addition to the speed/delay issues you all mention. Moreover, it's an advantage that IIRC we didn't appreciate at the time - and an advantage that nobody has really thought about since, because it _solves a problem that never happened_ - because NVC packet switching solved it before anybody realized it _was_ a problem! Moreover, it's an advantage over actual circuit networks, as well as virtual circuit neworks - which makes it clear that it's not (just) the 'packets' alone that are the solution to our never-problem, it's a _particular kind_ of packets. I refer to the growth of state in intermediate switches. If a data communication system involves _any_ state in intermediate switches related to a particular communication flow, the growth of that state, as the network gets bigger, is going to be a real problen. The (obvious, in retrospect) solution is to move all such state out to the leaves (hosts); since the number of leaves will grow roughly at the same rate as the network itself - problem solved - built-in scaling. Maybe one of you smart people realized this beore I showed up, so it was not necessary to talk about it - because I certainly don't recall any discussion at any point after my arrival. (Then again, we were up to our chins - and later noses - in real, pressing problems! :-) I remember reading a memo written by Dave Clark, soon after I joined, which made the point that moving the state out to the edges was good for _robustness_. Something much like it was printed some years later (1988), a copy here: http://ccr.sigcomm.org/archive/1995/jan95/ccr-9501-clark.pdf I wonder if anyone has a copy of the original, it would have been circa 1978 or so - ISTR the phase 'they will all go together if they go', of the connection state and the application. However, that note says nothing about _scaling_. So either it was so obvious it didn't need to be talked about - or it hadn't been thought about - perhaps because the choice of NVC packets meant it was (accidentally?) never a problem. This was brought home to me forcefully a year or so ago, when people on the UNIX history list, TUHS, started reminiscing about Datakit, and how nice it had been, and roughly (from memory) 'Gee, it's too bad the Internet didn't use Datakit'. My reaction be imagined. (OK, maybe not! :-) I did a quick 'back of the envelope' calculation and asked them, given the average HTTP TCP connection length, how many connection setups per second a Datakit backbone switch with a couple of OC48 links would have to do. (It's _many_ milions per second, or something like that.) Nothing more of how wonderful Datakit would be for the Internet was heard on that thread. (I am perhaps more attuned to this issue because controlling state growth _was_ an issue for Nimrod, with flows; I invented stacked flow-ids - RFC 1753 - as part of the solution. This mechanism was ater recycled as the 'label stack' in MPLS.) PS: > From: John Day > Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the > inventors (Baran and Davies) I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point (above), I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS paper (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions on Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well before Davies started to think about the problem. Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely independently re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that the germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with someone who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves heard about it from a third person. At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in 1964. Noel From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jan 11 17:49:48 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 20:49:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> SNIP > > PS: > From: John Day > >> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the >> inventors (Baran and Davies) > > I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point (above), > I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS paper > (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions on > Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been > published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in > August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well > before Davies started to think about the problem. > > Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely independently > re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that the > germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with someone > who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves heard > about it from a third person. > > At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for > sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in 1964. Actually, we do know. In Abbate?s book, she recounts how Davies gave a presentation on what he had been working on and a British military person came up to him afterwards and told him about Baran?s work. It was Davies and Scantlebury at the Gatlinburg OS meeting who told Roberts about Baran. Reading Baran?s report, it is clear he had in mind something like datagrams. He talks about routing each packet independently and his description of ?hot-potato? routing definitely But what I find peculiar is that he never pursued it. I haven?t been able to find a datagram-like project that he pursued. He seems more fascinated by the emerging T1 technology, which is later borne out by his involvement in Stratacom, which was very much virtual circuit. > > Noel From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jan 11 17:55:21 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 20:55:21 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: The primary advantage of datagrams, which was why CYCLADES pursued it (and what I was alluding to) is dynamic resource allocation being a couple of orders of magnitude more efficient. There is a 1968 paper by Peter Denning that shows this. However, in routers, the amount of memory required was still being calculated based on a static allocation model. Yes, you can get too much of the wrong kind of state in the network and that seems to be where things have gone with DPI. However, that doesn?t mean it should be as pure as driven snow. As I said, CYCLADES was built to do research on networks. Datagrams were part of their minimal platform to investigate what else was needed. They were as surprised everyone else when datagrams seemed sufficient for the initial applications. (Confirmed by Jean-Louis Grang?, who implemented CIGALE). By the time, more was needed, that idea (and how to investigate it) had been lost. Take care, John I will respond to your PS separately. > On Jan 11, 2024, at 17:33, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Vint Cerf > >> the last point about speed adaptation is a key value in packet switching > >> From: John Day > >> Packet switching had many advantages .. was the improvement over >> message switching > > Packet switching - at least non-virtual-circuit packet switching (I'm not > sure what the current technical term is for that now - would 'datagram packet > switching' be it?), the flavour of packet switching everyone takes for > granted these days, when 'packet switching' is used - has one key advantage, > for a global-scale network, in addition to the speed/delay issues you all > mention. Moreover, it's an advantage that IIRC we didn't appreciate at the > time - and an advantage that nobody has really thought about since, because > it _solves a problem that never happened_ - because NVC packet switching > solved it before anybody realized it _was_ a problem! > > Moreover, it's an advantage over actual circuit networks, as well as virtual > circuit neworks - which makes it clear that it's not (just) the 'packets' > alone that are the solution to our never-problem, it's a _particular kind_ of > packets. > > I refer to the growth of state in intermediate switches. If a data > communication system involves _any_ state in intermediate switches related to > a particular communication flow, the growth of that state, as the network > gets bigger, is going to be a real problen. The (obvious, in retrospect) > solution is to move all such state out to the leaves (hosts); since the > number of leaves will grow roughly at the same rate as the network itself - > problem solved - built-in scaling. > > Maybe one of you smart people realized this beore I showed up, so it was not > necessary to talk about it - because I certainly don't recall any discussion > at any point after my arrival. (Then again, we were up to our chins - and > later noses - in real, pressing problems! :-) I remember reading a memo > written by Dave Clark, soon after I joined, which made the point that moving > the state out to the edges was good for _robustness_. Something much like it > was printed some years later (1988), a copy here: > > http://ccr.sigcomm.org/archive/1995/jan95/ccr-9501-clark.pdf > > I wonder if anyone has a copy of the original, it would have been circa 1978 > or so - ISTR the phase 'they will all go together if they go', of > the connection state and the application. However, that note says nothing > about _scaling_. > > So either it was so obvious it didn't need to be talked about - or it hadn't > been thought about - perhaps because the choice of NVC packets meant it was > (accidentally?) never a problem. > > > This was brought home to me forcefully a year or so ago, when people on the > UNIX history list, TUHS, started reminiscing about Datakit, and how nice it > had been, and roughly (from memory) 'Gee, it's too bad the Internet didn't use > Datakit'. My reaction be imagined. (OK, maybe not! :-) I did a quick 'back of > the envelope' calculation and asked them, given the average HTTP TCP > connection length, how many connection setups per second a Datakit backbone > switch with a couple of OC48 links would have to do. (It's _many_ milions per > second, or something like that.) Nothing more of how wonderful Datakit would > be for the Internet was heard on that thread. > > (I am perhaps more attuned to this issue because controlling state growth > _was_ an issue for Nimrod, with flows; I invented stacked flow-ids - RFC 1753 > - as part of the solution. This mechanism was ater recycled as the 'label > stack' in MPLS.) > > > > PS: > From: John Day > >> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the >> inventors (Baran and Davies) > > I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point (above), > I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS paper > (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions on > Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been > published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in > August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well > before Davies started to think about the problem. > > Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely independently > re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that the > germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with someone > who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves heard > about it from a third person. > > At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for > sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in 1964. > > Noel From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Jan 11 18:02:09 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 21:02:09 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> References: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: Baran tried to implement but DCA (now DISA) told him to buzz off. They knew how to build networks (read: circuit switching) and no punk off the street was going to tell them differently. v On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:50?PM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > SNIP > > > > > PS: > From: John Day > > > >> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the > >> inventors (Baran and Davies) > > > > I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point > (above), > > I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS > paper > > (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions > on > > Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been > > published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in > > August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well > > before Davies started to think about the problem. > > > > Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely > independently > > re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that > the > > germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with > someone > > who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves > heard > > about it from a third person. > > > > At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for > > sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in > 1964. > > Actually, we do know. In Abbate?s book, she recounts how Davies gave a > presentation on what he had been working on and a British military person > came up to him afterwards and told him about Baran?s work. It was Davies > and Scantlebury at the Gatlinburg OS meeting who told Roberts about Baran. > > Reading Baran?s report, it is clear he had in mind something like > datagrams. He talks about routing each packet independently and his > description of ?hot-potato? routing definitely But what I find peculiar is > that he never pursued it. I haven?t been able to find a datagram-like > project that he pursued. He seems more fascinated by the emerging T1 > technology, which is later borne out by his involvement in Stratacom, which > was very much virtual circuit. > > > > > > Noel > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jan 11 18:02:41 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 21:02:41 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> References: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <54E884D6-8605-4887-8CB9-3B2CC8591C05@comcast.net> This got away from me fixing another email. Ignore that one and I will finish this one. ;-) On Jan 11, 2024, at 20:49, John Day via Internet-history wrote: SNIP > > PS: > From: John Day > >> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the >> inventors (Baran and Davies) > > I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point (above), > I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS paper > (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions on > Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been > published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in > August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well > before Davies started to think about the problem. > > Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely independently > re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that the > germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with someone > who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves heard > about it from a third person. > > At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for > sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in 1964. Actually, we do know. In Abbate?s book, she recounts how Davies gave a presentation in the UK on what he had been working on and a British military person came up to him afterwards and told him about Baran?s work. At which point, Davies looked it up and refers to it. It was Davies and Scantlebury at the Gatlinburg OS meeting who told Roberts about Baran. (And also convinced Roberts not to use 2.4Kbps lines for the ARPANET.) ;-) Reading Baran?s report, it is clear he had in mind something like datagrams. He talks about routing each packet independently and his description of ?hot-potato? routing definitely datagrams. But what I find peculiar is that he never pursued it. I haven?t been able to find a datagram-like project that he pursued. He seems more fascinated by the emerging T1 technology, which is later borne out by his involvement in Stratacom, which was very much virtual circuit. As I said, he seems to be aware of the advantages over message switching (all that existed when he wrote), but never spends much time on it that aspect of it. He covers priority, precedence, and congestion, but never contrasts it to message switching. Even in the mid to late 70s, the DoD people were still worried about short messages getting stuck behind long ones, which of course couldn?t happen on the ARPANET at least not by more than a few 100 ms. It would be really nice if someone could shed some light on this. Take care, John > > Noel -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jan 11 18:04:12 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 21:04:12 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <881BF408-40D1-445B-A478-E373566E32A9@comcast.net> Right as did several other organizations, including AT&T. Who finally said they would but Baran backed off knowing they would screw it up. Which in my estimation, he was right!! ;-) > On Jan 11, 2024, at 21:02, vinton cerf wrote: > > Baran tried to implement but DCA (now DISA) told him to buzz off. They knew how to build networks (read: circuit switching) and no punk off the street was going to tell them differently. > > v > > > On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 8:50?PM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: >> SNIP >> >> > >> > PS: > From: John Day >> > >> >> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the >> >> inventors (Baran and Davies) >> > >> > I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point (above), >> > I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS paper >> > (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions on >> > Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been >> > published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in >> > August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well >> > before Davies started to think about the problem. >> > >> > Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely independently >> > re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that the >> > germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with someone >> > who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves heard >> > about it from a third person. >> > >> > At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for >> > sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in 1964. >> >> Actually, we do know. In Abbate?s book, she recounts how Davies gave a presentation on what he had been working on and a British military person came up to him afterwards and told him about Baran?s work. It was Davies and Scantlebury at the Gatlinburg OS meeting who told Roberts about Baran. >> >> Reading Baran?s report, it is clear he had in mind something like datagrams. He talks about routing each packet independently and his description of ?hot-potato? routing definitely But what I find peculiar is that he never pursued it. I haven?t been able to find a datagram-like project that he pursued. He seems more fascinated by the emerging T1 technology, which is later borne out by his involvement in Stratacom, which was very much virtual circuit. >> >> >> > >> > Noel >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jan 11 18:08:39 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 21:08:39 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <54E884D6-8605-4887-8CB9-3B2CC8591C05@comcast.net> References: <20240111223328.2B92418C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <819B53B9-A316-45E7-B720-6DC77B4795E7@comcast.net> <54E884D6-8605-4887-8CB9-3B2CC8591C05@comcast.net> Message-ID: Same thing happened in the UK. The government and the GPO told NPL to not do this ?theoretical? stuff and concentrate on ?practical efforts?. Reading that part of Abbate is really heartbreaking. There several things in the UK at the time headed in the right direction and the governments actions to leverage innovation and high tech all add the effect to ensure it didn?t happen. What?s worse is that nothing has changed. They are still pursuing the same policies. John > On Jan 11, 2024, at 21:02, John Day wrote: > > This got away from me fixing another email. Ignore that one and I will finish this one. ;-) > > On Jan 11, 2024, at 20:49, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > SNIP > >> >> PS: > From: John Day >> >>> Packet switching had many advantages, but from the point of view of the >>> inventors (Baran and Davies) >> >> I'm putting this down here, so it won't distract from my main point (above), >> I would like to point out that an abstract of Baran's 1964 IEEE ToCS paper >> (Paul Baran, "On Distributed Communications Networks", IEEE Transactions on >> Communications Systems, Vol. CS-12 No. 1, pp. 1-9, March 1964) had been >> published in "IEEE Spectrum" (circulation about 160,000 in those days) in >> August 1964, so Baran's basic idea had been circulated very widely well >> before Davies started to think about the problem. >> >> Which is not to say that Davies _didn't_ genuinely completely independently >> re-invent the concept of packet switching! But it's also _possible_ that the >> germ for the idea came to him, say, in a lunch-time conversation with someone >> who had either i) read about it in IEE Spectrum, or ii) had themselves heard >> about it from a third person. >> >> At this point, we'll never know for absolute sure. All we _can_ say, _for >> sure_, was that Baran's ideas were published in the open literature in 1964. > > Actually, we do know. > > In Abbate?s book, she recounts how Davies gave a presentation in the UK on what he had been working on and a British military person came up to him afterwards and told him about Baran?s work. At which point, Davies looked it up and refers to it. It was Davies and Scantlebury at the Gatlinburg OS meeting who told Roberts about Baran. (And also convinced Roberts not to use 2.4Kbps lines for the ARPANET.) ;-) > > Reading Baran?s report, it is clear he had in mind something like datagrams. He talks about routing each packet independently and his description of ?hot-potato? routing definitely datagrams. > > But what I find peculiar is that he never pursued it. I haven?t been able to find a datagram-like project that he pursued. He seems more fascinated by the emerging T1 technology, which is later borne out by his involvement in Stratacom, which was very much virtual circuit. As I said, he seems to be aware of the advantages over message switching (all that existed when he wrote), but never spends much time on it that aspect of it. He covers priority, precedence, and congestion, but never contrasts it to message switching. Even in the mid to late 70s, the DoD people were still worried about short messages getting stuck behind long ones, which of course couldn?t happen on the ARPANET at least not by more than a few 100 ms. > > It would be really nice if someone could shed some light on this. > > Take care, > John > >> >> Noel > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Thu Jan 11 21:52:36 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 21:52:36 -0800 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Early History of the Internet References: <401104408.11497084.1704922479868@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4030F3F2-C6AC-4500-A614-F959C4A58CBC@icloud.com> forwarded for Barbara ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Barbara Denny To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org Sent: Wednesday, January 10, 2024 at 10:38:19 AM PST Subject: Re: [ih] Early History of the Internet TCP didn't work very well over SINCGARS which was a port of packet radio protocols to the SINCGARS combat net radio. Our project was focused only on the network radio node issues (below transport). To do a demo we decided to use some app that used TCP. There was retransmission at the link layer but other things made that slow (perhaps channel acquisition? ). Just to get through the demo I had to turn off all protocol support in the network for loss packets. That made me think cross-layer interactions were important but it took many more years before work in that area. barbara From ocl at gih.com Sun Jan 14 02:56:15 2024 From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?=) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:56:15 +0000 Subject: [ih] Email reliability (was: Re: Early History of the Internet) In-Reply-To: <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> On 11/01/2024 20:10, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > Large email service providers have been on a long march towards > increasingly restrictive rules, for the mail they will accept. The > onslaught of email abuse obviously creates a clear and present > danger.? The challenge in formulating acceptance changes is the > potential for collateral damage to legitimate users. This week, AWS customers received an email detailing changes with Google + Yahoo and others. See forwarded in full. As an evolution of email, is this likely to make it more reliable again or will it lead to further deterioration of the service? Best, Olivier -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [Action may be required] Mailbox providers announce new requirements for bulk email senders [AWS Account: xxx ] Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:26:30 +0000 From: Amazon Web Services, Inc. To: Hello, In a move to safeguard user inboxes, Gmail [1] and Yahoo Mail [2] announced a new set of requirements for senders. Effective February 2024, the new requirements affect email senders who distribute over 5,000 bulk messages per day or have >0.3% of messages reported as spam. Failure to comply with the new requirements may result in Gmail and Yahoo rejecting message delivery to their customers. For more information on the new mailbox provider requirements and how to comply, please visit the AWS blog [3]. If you have any questions or concerns, please reach out to AWS Support [4]. [1] https://blog.google/products/gmail/gmail-security-authentication-spam-protection/ [2] https://blog.postmaster.yahooinc.com/post/730172167494483968/more-secure-less-spam [3] https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/messaging-and-targeting/an-overview-of-bulk-sender-changes-at-yahoo-gmail/ [4] https://aws.amazon.com/support Sincerely, Amazon Web Services Amazon Web Services, Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. Amazon.com is a registered trademark of Amazon.com, Inc. This message was produced and distributed by Amazon Web Services Inc., 410 Terry Ave. North, Seattle, WA 98109-5210 From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Jan 14 10:32:58 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:32:58 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> Message-ID: <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> It will likely reduce spam, but also disrupt real email - in particular any email that travels using any mailing list (like this one).?? The effect comes not from the new rules for "bulk senders", but rather from the mail servers changes to their filters for handling incoming mail, especially the rules that classify mail travelling through mailing lists as inherently suspicious. From Amazon's blog announcement: "For example, /gmail.com/ will be publishing a quarantine DMARC policy, which means that unauthorized messages claiming to be from Gmail will be sent to Junk folders."? It's likely that yahoo and others are taking similar steps, effective sometime in the next month or so.? Depending on exactly how they set it up, the effect might be that all email from any mailing list will be automatically classed as spam, or even just silently deleted. I suspect lots of "mailing lists" will sustain such "collateral damage".?? Anyone who sends or receives their email using a gmail or yahoo address will likely discover that they are effectively cut off from using this list (and probably others). I'm on several mailing lists (isoc, groups.io, googlegroups, ...) and haven't seen announcements from any of them about imminent changes.? Nor have the "email providers" (yahoo, gmail, etc.) said anything about their plans' effects on mailing lists or groups. Perhaps they're just not aware of what's happening?... Jack Haverty On 1/14/24 02:56, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote: > > > On 11/01/2024 20:10, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >> Large email service providers have been on a long march towards >> increasingly restrictive rules, for the mail they will accept. The >> onslaught of email abuse obviously creates a clear and present >> danger.? The challenge in formulating acceptance changes is the >> potential for collateral damage to legitimate users. > > This week, AWS customers received an email detailing changes with > Google + Yahoo and others. > See forwarded in full. As an evolution of email, is this likely to > make it more reliable again or will it lead to further deterioration > of the service? > Best, > > Olivier > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject:???? [Action may be required] Mailbox providers announce new > requirements for bulk email senders [AWS Account: xxx ] > Date:???? Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:26:30 +0000 > From:???? Amazon Web Services, Inc. > To: > > > > Hello, > > In a move to safeguard user inboxes, Gmail [1] and Yahoo Mail [2] > announced a new set of requirements for senders. Effective February > 2024, the new requirements affect email senders who distribute over > 5,000 bulk messages per day or have >0.3% of messages reported as > spam. Failure to comply with the new requirements may result in Gmail > and Yahoo rejecting message delivery to their customers. > > For more information on the new mailbox provider requirements and how > to comply, please visit the AWS blog [3]. If you have any questions or > concerns, please reach out to AWS Support [4]. > > [1] > https://blog.google/products/gmail/gmail-security-authentication-spam-protection/ > [2] > https://blog.postmaster.yahooinc.com/post/730172167494483968/more-secure-less-spam > [3] > https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/messaging-and-targeting/an-overview-of-bulk-sender-changes-at-yahoo-gmail/ > [4] https://aws.amazon.com/support > > Sincerely, > Amazon Web Services > > Amazon Web Services, Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. > Amazon.com is a registered trademark of Amazon.com, Inc. This message > was produced and distributed by Amazon Web Services Inc., 410 Terry > Ave. North, Seattle, WA 98109-5210 -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From agmalis at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 10:43:56 2024 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 13:43:56 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Jack, Note that this list (Internet History) already properly rewrites the headers to be conformant with the anti-spam rules. I believe that's true for all ISOC-based lists. Cheers, Andy On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 1:33?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > It will likely reduce spam, but also disrupt real email - in particular > any email that travels using any mailing list (like this one). The > effect comes not from the new rules for "bulk senders", but rather from > the mail servers changes to their filters for handling incoming mail, > especially the rules that classify mail travelling through mailing lists > as inherently suspicious. > > From Amazon's blog announcement: > > "For example, /gmail.com/ will be publishing a quarantine DMARC policy, > which means that unauthorized messages claiming to be from Gmail will be > sent to Junk folders." It's likely that yahoo and others are taking > similar steps, effective sometime in the next month or so. Depending on > exactly how they set it up, the effect might be that all email from any > mailing list will be automatically classed as spam, or even just > silently deleted. > > I suspect lots of "mailing lists" will sustain such "collateral > damage". Anyone who sends or receives their email using a gmail or > yahoo address will likely discover that they are effectively cut off > from using this list (and probably others). > > I'm on several mailing lists (isoc, groups.io, googlegroups, ...) and > haven't seen announcements from any of them about imminent changes. Nor > have the "email providers" (yahoo, gmail, etc.) said anything about > their plans' effects on mailing lists or groups. Perhaps they're just > not aware of what's happening?... > > Jack Haverty > > > > On 1/14/24 02:56, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > On 11/01/2024 20:10, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > >> Large email service providers have been on a long march towards > >> increasingly restrictive rules, for the mail they will accept. The > >> onslaught of email abuse obviously creates a clear and present > >> danger. The challenge in formulating acceptance changes is the > >> potential for collateral damage to legitimate users. > > > > This week, AWS customers received an email detailing changes with > > Google + Yahoo and others. > > See forwarded in full. As an evolution of email, is this likely to > > make it more reliable again or will it lead to further deterioration > > of the service? > > Best, > > > > Olivier > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Subject: [Action may be required] Mailbox providers announce new > > requirements for bulk email senders [AWS Account: xxx ] > > Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:26:30 +0000 > > From: Amazon Web Services, Inc. > > To: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > In a move to safeguard user inboxes, Gmail [1] and Yahoo Mail [2] > > announced a new set of requirements for senders. Effective February > > 2024, the new requirements affect email senders who distribute over > > 5,000 bulk messages per day or have >0.3% of messages reported as > > spam. Failure to comply with the new requirements may result in Gmail > > and Yahoo rejecting message delivery to their customers. > > > > For more information on the new mailbox provider requirements and how > > to comply, please visit the AWS blog [3]. If you have any questions or > > concerns, please reach out to AWS Support [4]. > > > > [1] > > > https://blog.google/products/gmail/gmail-security-authentication-spam-protection/ > > [2] > > > https://blog.postmaster.yahooinc.com/post/730172167494483968/more-secure-less-spam > > [3] > > > https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/messaging-and-targeting/an-overview-of-bulk-sender-changes-at-yahoo-gmail/ > > [4] https://aws.amazon.com/support > > > > Sincerely, > > Amazon Web Services > > > > Amazon Web Services, Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. > > Amazon.com is a registered trademark of Amazon.com, Inc. This message > > was produced and distributed by Amazon Web Services Inc., 410 Terry > > Ave. North, Seattle, WA 98109-5210 > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Jan 14 10:57:41 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:57:41 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> True.?? But ISOC doesn't seem to follow this requirement (from the Amazon blog announcement): "Bulk senders are expected to include a mechanism to unsubscribe by adding an easy to find link within the message. The February 2024 mailbox provider rules will require senders to additionally add one-click unsubscribe headers as defined by RFC 2369 and RFC 8058 ." At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header...perhaps that rule won't be enforced at first.? We'll see... Jack On 1/14/24 10:43, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > Jack, > > Note that this list (Internet History) already properly rewrites the > headers to be conformant with the anti-spam rules. I believe?that's > true for all ISOC-based lists. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 1:33?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > > It will likely reduce spam, but also disrupt real email - in > particular > any email that travels using any mailing list (like this one).?? The > effect comes not from the new rules for "bulk senders", but rather > from > the mail servers changes to their filters for handling incoming mail, > especially the rules that classify mail travelling through mailing > lists > as inherently suspicious. > > ?From Amazon's blog announcement: > > "For example, /gmail.com/ will be publishing a > quarantine DMARC policy, > which means that unauthorized messages claiming to be from Gmail > will be > sent to Junk folders."? It's likely that yahoo and others are taking > similar steps, effective sometime in the next month or so. > Depending on > exactly how they set it up, the effect might be that all email > from any > mailing list will be automatically classed as spam, or even just > silently deleted. > > I suspect lots of "mailing lists" will sustain such "collateral > damage".?? Anyone who sends or receives their email using a gmail or > yahoo address will likely discover that they are effectively cut off > from using this list (and probably others). > > I'm on several mailing lists (isoc, groups.io , > googlegroups, ...) and > haven't seen announcements from any of them about imminent > changes.? Nor > have the "email providers" (yahoo, gmail, etc.) said anything about > their plans' effects on mailing lists or groups. Perhaps they're just > not aware of what's happening?... > > Jack Haverty > > > > On 1/14/24 02:56, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history > wrote: > > > > > > On 11/01/2024 20:10, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > >> Large email service providers have been on a long march towards > >> increasingly restrictive rules, for the mail they will accept. The > >> onslaught of email abuse obviously creates a clear and present > >> danger.? The challenge in formulating acceptance changes is the > >> potential for collateral damage to legitimate users. > > > > This week, AWS customers received an email detailing changes with > > Google + Yahoo and others. > > See forwarded in full. As an evolution of email, is this likely to > > make it more reliable again or will it lead to further > deterioration > > of the service? > > Best, > > > > Olivier > > > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > > Subject:???? [Action may be required] Mailbox providers announce > new > > requirements for bulk email senders [AWS Account: xxx ] > > Date:???? Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:26:30 +0000 > > From:???? Amazon Web Services, Inc. > > To: > > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > In a move to safeguard user inboxes, Gmail [1] and Yahoo Mail [2] > > announced a new set of requirements for senders. Effective February > > 2024, the new requirements affect email senders who distribute over > > 5,000 bulk messages per day or have >0.3% of messages reported as > > spam. Failure to comply with the new requirements may result in > Gmail > > and Yahoo rejecting message delivery to their customers. > > > > For more information on the new mailbox provider requirements > and how > > to comply, please visit the AWS blog [3]. If you have any > questions or > > concerns, please reach out to AWS Support [4]. > > > > [1] > > > https://blog.google/products/gmail/gmail-security-authentication-spam-protection/ > > [2] > > > https://blog.postmaster.yahooinc.com/post/730172167494483968/more-secure-less-spam > > [3] > > > https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/messaging-and-targeting/an-overview-of-bulk-sender-changes-at-yahoo-gmail/ > > [4] https://aws.amazon.com/support > > > > Sincerely, > > Amazon Web Services > > > > Amazon Web Services, Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. > > Amazon.com is a registered trademark of Amazon.com, Inc. This > message > > was produced and distributed by Amazon Web Services Inc., 410 Terry > > Ave. North, Seattle, WA 98109-5210 > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From johnl at iecc.com Sun Jan 14 10:58:08 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Jan 2024 13:58:08 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240114185808.A7A49808C282@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >It will likely reduce spam, but also disrupt real email - in particular >any email that travels using any mailing list (like this one).? Uh, where have you been? Mailing lists have been screwed up by DMARC since Yahoo started over-enforcing it a decade ago. There's a variety of workarounds for mailing lists ranging from the effective but not actually existing (that's ARC), or tricky and hard to implement (per-author rewrites as the IETF and groups.io do) to the just plain bad (put the list's address on the From line so you can't tell who's sending mail nor reply reliably.) Google and Yahoo's upcoming changes will have a lot o effect on badly run commerical bulk mailers, but the damage to mailing lists was done ages ago. R's, John From johnl at iecc.com Sun Jan 14 11:03:22 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Jan 2024 14:03:22 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >"Bulk senders are expected to include a mechanism to unsubscribe by >adding an easy to find link within the message. They're mostly talking about commercial bulk senders, not mailing lists. >At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header... Tell Thunderbird to show you all the headers. It's there. I don't know why T'bird doesn't provide a button for it in the UI. Even Alpine, the oldest and cruddiest MUA around, does. R's, John From dhc at dcrocker.net Sun Jan 14 11:06:30 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 11:06:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 1/14/2024 10:57 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > But ISOC doesn't seem to follow this requirement (from the Amazon blog > announcement): > > "Bulk senders are expected to include a mechanism to unsubscribe by > adding an easy to find link within the message. The February 2024 > mailbox provider rules will require senders to additionally add > one-click unsubscribe headers as defined by RFC 2369 > and RFC 8058 > ." ahh, right.? this, of course, has nothing to do with validation, per se, and everything to do with creating compliance rules for best practices by bulk senders. And really the these practices are not new or controversial.? So it is their escalation to being required that is significant. One would have wished for a BCP to document this, before services declared the requirement. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 11:17:38 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 08:17:38 +1300 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <73e9271b-b18a-7e5b-797d-9b5f73b8917f@gmail.com> Jack, The headers of your message as delivered to me include: List-Unsubscribe: , It's up to your mail reading software to support this or not. John Levine is something of a subject matter expert on this. Regards Brian Carpenter On 15-Jan-24 07:57, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > True.?? But ISOC doesn't seem to follow this requirement (from the > Amazon blog announcement): > > "Bulk senders are expected to include a mechanism to unsubscribe by > adding an easy to find link within the message. The February 2024 > mailbox provider rules will require senders to additionally add > one-click unsubscribe headers as defined by RFC 2369 > and RFC 8058 > ." > > At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header...perhaps that rule won't > be enforced at first.? We'll see... > > Jack > > > On 1/14/24 10:43, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> Jack, >> >> Note that this list (Internet History) already properly rewrites the >> headers to be conformant with the anti-spam rules. I believe?that's >> true for all ISOC-based lists. >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >> On Sun, Jan 14, 2024 at 1:33?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> wrote: >> >> It will likely reduce spam, but also disrupt real email - in >> particular >> any email that travels using any mailing list (like this one).?? The >> effect comes not from the new rules for "bulk senders", but rather >> from >> the mail servers changes to their filters for handling incoming mail, >> especially the rules that classify mail travelling through mailing >> lists >> as inherently suspicious. >> >> ?From Amazon's blog announcement: >> >> "For example, /gmail.com/ will be publishing a >> quarantine DMARC policy, >> which means that unauthorized messages claiming to be from Gmail >> will be >> sent to Junk folders."? It's likely that yahoo and others are taking >> similar steps, effective sometime in the next month or so. >> Depending on >> exactly how they set it up, the effect might be that all email >> from any >> mailing list will be automatically classed as spam, or even just >> silently deleted. >> >> I suspect lots of "mailing lists" will sustain such "collateral >> damage".?? Anyone who sends or receives their email using a gmail or >> yahoo address will likely discover that they are effectively cut off >> from using this list (and probably others). >> >> I'm on several mailing lists (isoc, groups.io , >> googlegroups, ...) and >> haven't seen announcements from any of them about imminent >> changes.? Nor >> have the "email providers" (yahoo, gmail, etc.) said anything about >> their plans' effects on mailing lists or groups. Perhaps they're just >> not aware of what's happening?... >> >> Jack Haverty >> >> >> >> On 1/14/24 02:56, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history >> wrote: >> > >> > >> > On 11/01/2024 20:10, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >> >> Large email service providers have been on a long march towards >> >> increasingly restrictive rules, for the mail they will accept. The >> >> onslaught of email abuse obviously creates a clear and present >> >> danger.? The challenge in formulating acceptance changes is the >> >> potential for collateral damage to legitimate users. >> > >> > This week, AWS customers received an email detailing changes with >> > Google + Yahoo and others. >> > See forwarded in full. As an evolution of email, is this likely to >> > make it more reliable again or will it lead to further >> deterioration >> > of the service? >> > Best, >> > >> > Olivier >> > >> > -------- Forwarded Message -------- >> > Subject:???? [Action may be required] Mailbox providers announce >> new >> > requirements for bulk email senders [AWS Account: xxx ] >> > Date:???? Sun, 14 Jan 2024 10:26:30 +0000 >> > From:???? Amazon Web Services, Inc. >> > To: >> > >> > >> > >> > Hello, >> > >> > In a move to safeguard user inboxes, Gmail [1] and Yahoo Mail [2] >> > announced a new set of requirements for senders. Effective February >> > 2024, the new requirements affect email senders who distribute over >> > 5,000 bulk messages per day or have >0.3% of messages reported as >> > spam. Failure to comply with the new requirements may result in >> Gmail >> > and Yahoo rejecting message delivery to their customers. >> > >> > For more information on the new mailbox provider requirements >> and how >> > to comply, please visit the AWS blog [3]. If you have any >> questions or >> > concerns, please reach out to AWS Support [4]. >> > >> > [1] >> > >> https://blog.google/products/gmail/gmail-security-authentication-spam-protection/ >> > [2] >> > >> https://blog.postmaster.yahooinc.com/post/730172167494483968/more-secure-less-spam >> > [3] >> > >> https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/messaging-and-targeting/an-overview-of-bulk-sender-changes-at-yahoo-gmail/ >> > [4] https://aws.amazon.com/support >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > Amazon Web Services >> > >> > Amazon Web Services, Inc. is a subsidiary of Amazon.com, Inc. >> > Amazon.com is a registered trademark of Amazon.com, Inc. This >> message >> > was produced and distributed by Amazon Web Services Inc., 410 Terry >> > Ave. North, Seattle, WA 98109-5210 >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Jan 14 11:19:52 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 11:19:52 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> References: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <52f76226-c2f1-4ef8-9d7a-965af1cbf92b@3kitty.org> Control-U in Thunderbird shows all headers.? You're right, there is an unsubscribe in the header from the isoc list, but Thunderbird at least doesn't seem to do anything with it.?? Many mailing lists put an unsubscribe link in the footer they insert at the bottom of each message as it passes through. I looked at the headers in one of the messages this morning.? But it was one I received directly, rather than through the mailing list. So it had no unsubscribe header.?? Curious, I still haven't gotten any of this morning's messages (Andy, me, you, Dave) via the internet-history route, but the direct copy arrived intact.? Perhaps isoc is down... Jack On 1/14/24 11:03, John Levine wrote: > It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >> "Bulk senders are expected to include a mechanism to unsubscribe by >> adding an easy to find link within the message. > They're mostly talking about commercial bulk senders, not mailing lists. > >> At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header... > Tell Thunderbird to show you all the headers. It's there. I don't know > why T'bird doesn't provide a button for it in the UI. Even Alpine, the > oldest and cruddiest MUA around, does. > > R's, > John -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 14 11:23:27 2024 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 13:23:27 -0600 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> On 1/14/24 12:57, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header...perhaps that rule won't > be enforced at first.? We'll see... The "List-Unsubscribe:" header is there. List-Id: "Discussions about Internet History." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , -- Grant. . . . From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 11:25:09 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 08:25:09 +1300 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> References: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> Message-ID: On 15-Jan-24 08:03, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >> "Bulk senders are expected to include a mechanism to unsubscribe by >> adding an easy to find link within the message. > > They're mostly talking about commercial bulk senders, not mailing lists. > >> At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header... > > Tell Thunderbird to show you all the headers. View/Headers/All doesn't show it on my T'bird. > It's there. I don't know > why T'bird doesn't provide a button for it in the UI. Even Alpine, the > oldest and cruddiest MUA around, does. There's an add-on available for T'bird. I'll try it and report back. Brian From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 14 11:28:57 2024 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 13:28:57 -0600 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <050d1af2-2773-4b29-9d31-e5aeff775d90@tnetconsulting.net> On 1/14/24 13:25, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > View/Headers/All doesn't show it on my T'bird. View -> Headers -> All shows it in my T'bird 115. I do get a scroll bar on the far right hand side of the headers area and need to scroll down to see it. I usually just view messages source any time I want to look at headers. > There's an add-on available for T'bird. I'll try it and report back. Please do. I'm mad at contemporary T'bird and curious if anything will make it better. -- Grant. . . . From dhc at dcrocker.net Sun Jan 14 11:02:16 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 11:02:16 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <661f1bf4-e733-4801-b9e9-1c3776296e8e@dcrocker.net> On 1/14/2024 10:32 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > It will likely reduce spam, but also disrupt real email s/will likely/already does/ and already does the disruption... The google announcement is of an escalation, not a creation. > - in particular any email that travels using any mailing list (like > this one).?? The effect comes not from the new rules for "bulk > senders", but rather from the mail servers changes to their filters > for handling incoming mail, especially the rules that classify mail > travelling through mailing lists as inherently suspicious. > > From Amazon's blog announcement: > > "For example, /gmail.com/ will be publishing a quarantine DMARC > policy, which means that unauthorized messages claiming to be from > Gmail will be sent to Junk folders." The "will be" is an assertion of universal fact that is false, and Google knows it. A DMARC record that is published with a 'quarantine' setting is expressing a desire, requesting a specific action by the receiver.? And some receiving sites do blindly comply with the request but many (most?) do not.? For one thing, there is noise in the DMARC channel and blink compliance produces false positives. Rather, the DMARC process, including the request, feeds into a complex filtering engine at the receiver, where local policies decide what is actually done. It's not that the quarantine request isn't significant or that it never happens.? It's that it is only a request and all sorts of different things might happen. But the language of the Google notice does show a continuing problem with how email problems are viewed and discussed, especially by the major providers. > I suspect lots of "mailing lists" will sustain such "collateral damage". Already do.? And have for a few years now. > Anyone who sends or receives their email using a gmail or yahoo > address will likely discover that they are effectively cut off from > using this list (and probably others). No. The From: field had that this list and many (most?) have adopted in recent years 'routes around' DMARC.? Think of it as defeating DMARC, or, more generally, defeating a barrier to abuse.(*) DMARC requires the From: field domain name to 'align' with a DKIM signature (or SPF record) for the domain the DMARC record covers. The mailing list hack is to make the From: field domain no longer be what the author's system created. So while your system sent a message with: ?? From:? Jack Haverty the mailing list changed it to: ?? From: Jack Haverty via Internet-history If your system used DMARC for 3kitty.org, it would require DKIM or SPF validation.? Going through a mailing list would make the DMARC check fail, since the mailing list's modification of the message header and/or body will break the DKIM signature, and its being an additional SMTP hop will break the SPF address check. But since the message we received no longer has a From: field with your domain name, there is no longer a DMARC check at the receiver for 3kitty.org. The second part of the mailing list hack is the put the original From: field address into the Reply-To:.? This defeats any preexisting Reply-To content but otherwise does make a reply to the author go to the author. d/ (*) The premise behind DMARC's design is that bad actors make unauthorized From: field use of a domain like gmail.com.? And indeed, bad actors do. /But they don't have to./? They can use all sorts of other From: fields -- including other domains -- and still trick the recipient into thinking the message came from gmail. /Recipients are influenced by Subject: and the content of the Body quite a bit more than the From: field./ Especially the From: field address, since most users are now shown that address.? Hence classing the DMARC benefit as correlational, rather than inherent. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From dhc at dcrocker.net Sun Jan 14 11:46:30 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 11:46:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <2437eba7-56f0-4859-aec0-3749d1b60725@dcrocker.net> On 1/14/2024 11:25 AM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > There's an add-on available for T'bird. I'll try it and report back. what is its name?? i'm not finding one. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 11:48:48 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 08:48:48 +1300 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <050d1af2-2773-4b29-9d31-e5aeff775d90@tnetconsulting.net> References: <20240114190322.AA64A808C40E@ary.qy> <050d1af2-2773-4b29-9d31-e5aeff775d90@tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <9b6d70d3-4ade-0908-331c-26f8d1974567@gmail.com> On 15-Jan-24 08:28, Grant Taylor via Internet-history wrote: > On 1/14/24 13:25, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> View/Headers/All doesn't show it on my T'bird. > > View -> Headers -> All shows it in my T'bird 115. I do get a scroll bar > on the far right hand side of the headers area and need to scroll down > to see it. Ah, yes, I hadn't spotted that. It's a bit indigestible, of course. > > I usually just view messages source any time I want to look at headers. > >> There's an add-on available for T'bird. I'll try it and report back. > > Please do. Yes, the addon is called "unsub" and seems to work OK (I didn't press the final button). Search via Tools/Add-ons/Find more add-ons or you can install it manually from https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-us/thunderbird/addon/unsub/ Brian > > I'm mad at contemporary T'bird and curious if anything will make it better. > > > > From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Jan 14 12:06:17 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 12:06:17 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> Found it, thanks.? I was looking at the headers of a "direct" message instead of the copy I usually get via internet-history. The internet-history processor adds fields to the header, but also modifies the body of the message, e.g., inserting the "footer" with the list information.? Among other things, that breaks my PGP signature. However it also appears that the "new" message with the altered From field and message body, still has the original Message-ID field that my composer assigned.? But it's no longer the message that I wrote... it's been modified in transit.?? Isn't such behavior in violation of something? On 1/14/24 11:23, Grant Taylor via Internet-history wrote: > On 1/14/24 12:57, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header...perhaps that rule >> won't be enforced at first.? We'll see... > > The "List-Unsubscribe:" header is there. > > List-Id: "Discussions about Internet History." > ???? > List-Unsubscribe: > , > > List-Archive: > List-Post: > List-Help: > List-Subscribe: > , > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dhc at dcrocker.net Sun Jan 14 12:14:50 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 12:14:50 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <1fdc33b9-f417-4d26-9111-46b21d1885fa@dcrocker.net> On 1/14/2024 12:06 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > However it also appears that the "new" message with the altered From > field and message body, still has the original Message-ID field that > my composer assigned.? But it's no longer the message that I wrote... > it's been modified in transit.?? Isn't such behavior in violation of > something? I think it was during the original IFIP WG6.5 discussions, that produced the UA/MTA model and led to the start of the X.400 effort, around 1980... there was a discussion about message IDs and a list of different possible identifiers that could be justified for a message, especially when end-to-end handling sequences were considered.? I don't remember how long the list was, but it was more than a few. So... You are correct that it is no longer the message that you wrote.? And you are not correct. The email community has rather singularly resisted being clear and consistent about this point. So there is a tendency to want to consider a mailing list on a par with an MTA, in spite of the former involving a complete delivery and a fresh submission/posting. And from a UX standpoint, after all, the authors and recipients think it IS the message that you wrote, no matter what changes the mailing list made to it. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From stewart at serissa.com Sun Jan 14 12:23:45 2024 From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 15:23:45 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability Message-ID: Perhaps there is an opportunity for a new mechanism that acts like an email list but isn?t implemented that way. Some possibilities: * RSS, with the email user agent retrieving new messages. * IMAP, with the email list implementing a list-accessible imap server with the group?s traffic. A subscriber would periodically fetch new messages and the user agent would provide a UI in which list messages show up in your inbox. The infrastructure is almost there already, with servers implementing list subscriber management and archives already. No doubt none of this is new :) -L From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Sun Jan 14 12:25:07 2024 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 14:25:07 -0600 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <342b90a5-85ce-4675-ba91-0176dcad74ee@tnetconsulting.net> On 1/14/24 14:06, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Found it, thanks.? I was looking at the headers of a "direct" message > instead of the copy I usually get via internet-history. ;-) > The internet-history processor adds fields to the header, but also > modifies the body of the message, e.g., inserting the "footer" with the > list information.? Among other things, that breaks my PGP signature. The broken PGP signature speaks the message from the mailing list NOT being the message that you sent. > However it also appears that the "new" message with the altered From > field and message body, still has the original Message-ID field that my > composer assigned.? But it's no longer the message that I wrote... it's > been modified in transit.?? Isn't such behavior in violation of something? It seems to me like there are two schools of thought; 1st the message is the body and all headers / envelope that you send (this is where I land) and 2) the message is /only/ the body and maybe only in spirit. My opinion is that mailing lists are a terminal point. As such they are an MUA, not an MTA. Mailing lists receive a copy of a message and generate a new and completely independent message substantively based on the message they received. But the message in to and out of a mailing list are two substantively different messages. As such, I believe they should have different Message-IDs. I think this view on mailing lists also speaks to all forwarding issues that I'm aware of. Any shortcuts that fall short of this end up having problems. But that's my opinion and I digress. -- Grant. . . . From johnl at iecc.com Sun Jan 14 15:00:18 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Jan 2024 18:00:18 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <2437eba7-56f0-4859-aec0-3749d1b60725@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20240114230018.B12618090B35@ary.qy> It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history said: >On 1/14/2024 11:25 AM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> There's an add-on available for T'bird. I'll try it and report back. > >what is its name?? i'm not finding one. I searched for unsubscribe and found it. I'm using the latest version of Thunderbird and while it installs and adds a button to the message window, it doesn't seem to work any more. If you push the button it pops up a sad little box which is clearly supposed to contain text but doesn't and has three buttons I wasn't inclined to push. R's, John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sun Jan 14 16:17:03 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 13:17:03 +1300 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <20240114230018.B12618090B35@ary.qy> References: <20240114230018.B12618090B35@ary.qy> Message-ID: <09e78392-bdd6-7f43-e1b5-e4b68db8daf5@gmail.com> On 15-Jan-24 12:00, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history said: >> On 1/14/2024 11:25 AM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >>> There's an add-on available for T'bird. I'll try it and report back. >> >> what is its name?? i'm not finding one. > > I searched for unsubscribe and found it. > > I'm using the latest version of Thunderbird I run an old version, deliberately, and unsub worked for me. But: https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-us/thunderbird/addon/unsub/reviews/1171944/ That's >6 months they've been aware... Brian > and while it installs and > adds a button to the message window, it doesn't seem to work any more. > If you push the button it pops up a sad little box which is clearly > supposed to contain text but doesn't and has three buttons I wasn't > inclined to push. > > R's, > John From gnu at toad.com Sun Jan 14 16:39:22 2024 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2024 16:39:22 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <1fdc33b9-f417-4d26-9111-46b21d1885fa@dcrocker.net> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> <1fdc33b9-f417-4d26-9111-46b21d1885fa@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <16591.1705279162@hop.toad.com> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > The email community has rather singularly resisted being clear and consistent about this point. Email was one of the very first Internet services to "go viral"; no wonder its standards are a hodgepodge of fifty years of evolution in many directions. The only reason that Google and Yahoo have any power to impose this month's evolution in (enforcement of) email standards, is because the formerly widely federated email service is now dominated by a small number of huge companies. Particularly when acting in concert (in restraint of trade?), they can afford to say "screw you and your previous email standards, if you want to communicate with the billions of users whose communications we hold captive @gmail.com or @yahoo.com, you will have to do exactly what we say." This consolidation was also partly driven by anti-spammers (as well as by surveillance capitalism). I know of many organizations who used to run their own email servers; EFF.org was one for years. Many eventually decided that the level of endless hassle from anti-spam organizations blocking their email deliveries for no good reason, was a reason to fire their sysadmin and abandon their email delivery to one of the majors (Microsoft in EFF's case). At least these orgs tend to have their own domain names, unlike most of the captives, so they can change email providers and MX records if one proves too abusive. Third party anti-spam orgs have for decades had the attitude that if you won't run your mail server in any detailed way that they dictate, then your completely legitimate email will not get through at their customers' sites. They see their job as to block spams, so if a few innocents are harmed in the process of blocking spams, "they don't care, they don't have to" (as Lily Tomlin said about the Bell System monopoly). They took steps to shield themselves from legal liability for their slipshod actions that affect others' communications, and largely succeeded. Now the majors are following in their footsteps. John From johnl at iecc.com Sun Jan 14 18:41:50 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Jan 2024 21:41:50 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <342b90a5-85ce-4675-ba91-0176dcad74ee@tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20240115024150.D2A6B8092101@ary.qy> It appears that Grant Taylor via Internet-history said: >My opinion is that mailing lists are a terminal point. As such they are >an MUA, not an MTA. Mailing lists receive a copy of a message and >generate a new and completely independent message substantively based on >the message they received. But the message in to and out of a mailing >list are two substantively different messages. As such, I believe they >should have different Message-IDs. I take your point, but everyone I know considers it a feature that if I send a message both to you and to the mailing list, the copy you get directly and the copy that's gone through the list have the same Message-ID so your MUA knows only to show it to you once. R's, John PS: Before someone else brings this up, on my mail system I route list mail and personal mail differently, and so if you respond to me and would like an answer it is VERY VERY IMPORTANT that you send it to BOTH the list and to me directly and everyone has to do it my way and if you do not you are a bad person. From johnl at iecc.com Sun Jan 14 18:54:40 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 15 Jan 2024 02:54:40 -0000 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to Lawrence Stewart via Internet-history : >Perhaps there is an opportunity for a new mechanism that acts like an email list but isn???t implemented that way. > >Some possibilities: > >* RSS, with the email user agent retrieving new messages. >* IMAP, with the email list implementing a list-accessible imap server with the group???s traffic. > >A subscriber would periodically fetch new messages and the user agent would provide a UI in which list messages show up in your inbox. A piece of software that periodically fetches messages from an IMAP server is called a mail program. You probably have access to several. If you want to read any of the IETF's mailing lists, rather than subscribing to them, you can tell your mail program to add an account on imap.ietf.org (anonymous/your email is fine for credentials) and subscribe to the folders you're interested in. Works great. The IETF has configured its lists so if you have ever been subscribed to any of them, you can post to all of them, so once you're known to the system, you can reply to the list messages and it'll work. Thunderbird also lets you subscribe to RSS feeds, which works as well as the RSS feeds are forwatted, some better than others. You forgot NNTP. It still works fine for the newsgroups that people that remain active. R's, John -- Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From woody at pch.net Mon Jan 15 00:23:16 2024 From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 09:23:16 +0100 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <16591.1705279162@hop.toad.com> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> <1fdc33b9-f417-4d26-9111-46b21d1885fa@dcrocker.net> <16591.1705279162@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: > On Jan 15, 2024, at 01:39, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > The only reason that Google and Yahoo have any power to impose this > month's evolution in (enforcement of) email standards, is because the > formerly widely federated email service is now dominated by a small > number of huge companies. Particularly when acting in concert (in > restraint of trade?), they can afford to say "screw you and your > previous email standards, if you want to communicate with the billions > of users whose communications we hold captive @gmail.com or @yahoo.com, > you will have to do exactly what we say." Ultimately, though, they?re not trying to get anyone else to do what they say, they?re trying to get everyone else to give up on trying to reach their arbitrarily moving goalposts. I think the only real question is whether their ultimate plan is to battle it out between them, once they?ve destroyed email for everyone else, or whether they?re planning to remain a duopoly, so that they can pretend that there?s competition. -Bill From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jan 15 11:39:29 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 11:39:29 -0800 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> References: <20240110041431.AC3F68059567@ary.qy> <49330166.11375035.1704911899230@mail.yahoo.com> <86706637.43658.1704937973965@mail.yahoo.com> <501654809.62624.1704940146536@mail.yahoo.com> <8a9837be-d1b7-40d8-8bba-5da40185ddc2@3kitty.org> <8a02317b-7284-49b7-87d4-e1c12f6a1155@dcrocker.net> <45d66e0f-1d0e-48bf-9d03-33ffd0849442@gih.com> <4b4d6fbb-eb7e-4e05-aaba-0cd1ed96adbe@3kitty.org> <544baeb3-20e1-42cc-80be-f67e7a905e7d@3kitty.org> <00715795-8f92-490f-a20c-e574c3088bb5@tnetconsulting.net> <378b74e4-21d3-44d4-a545-b2db62b952b9@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <23f12bce-1535-45a5-adcd-405f0ece7144@3kitty.org> Many of my other mailing-list subscriptions are failing more than usual.? Someone on one of them noted: "Virtually every e-mail service now has feedback loops built in where, when someone marks a message as spam, that information is sent back to the email service provider and they use this to tweak their spam filters.? Some are much more discriminating about how this is done than others are and, for some, all it takes is a very few spam reports for something to suddenly become classified on the server side as spam. " Apparently if receivers of a distribution list email somehow tag it as spam, it may lead to that list being categorized as a spam source and all its email being filtered out because the site is now listed on one of many "blacklists"? IMHO, Internet Mail is seriously broken and getting worse.?? Is there any organization or authority (ISOC, IETF, FCC, ISO, PTTs, governments, UN, whatever...) who accepts responsibility for the viability of email? Jack Haverty On 1/14/24 12:06, Jack Haverty wrote: > Found it, thanks.? I was looking at the headers of a "direct" message > instead of the copy I usually get via internet-history. > > The internet-history processor adds fields to the header, but also > modifies the body of the message, e.g., inserting the "footer" with > the list information.? Among other things, that breaks my PGP signature. > > However it also appears that the "new" message with the altered From > field and message body, still has the original Message-ID field that > my composer assigned.? But it's no longer the message that I wrote... > it's been modified in transit.?? Isn't such behavior in violation of > something? > > On 1/14/24 11:23, Grant Taylor via Internet-history wrote: >> On 1/14/24 12:57, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >>> At least I don't see any "unsubscribe" header...perhaps that rule >>> won't be enforced at first.? We'll see... >> >> The "List-Unsubscribe:" header is there. >> >> List-Id: "Discussions about Internet History." >> ???? >> List-Unsubscribe: >> , >> >> List-Archive: >> List-Post: >> List-Help: >> >> List-Subscribe: >> , >> >> >> >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jan 15 11:55:04 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 15 Jan 2024 14:55:04 -0500 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20240115195504.74E018099857@ary.qy> It appears that Bill Woodcock via Internet-history said: >Ultimately, though, they?re not trying to get anyone else to do what they say, they?re trying to get everyone else to give up on trying to reach their >arbitrarily moving goalposts. > >I think the only real question is whether their ultimate plan is to battle it out between them, once they?ve destroyed email for everyone else, or whether >they?re planning to remain a duopoly, so that they can pretend that there?s competition. I know a lot of people who work for large mail providers and even for (egad) Spamhaus. While this kind of conspiracy nonseense is fun, it's not very useful or productive. R's, John From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jan 15 13:19:35 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 15 Jan 2024 16:19:35 -0500 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <23f12bce-1535-45a5-adcd-405f0ece7144@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >Apparently if receivers of a distribution list email somehow tag it as >spam, it may lead to that list being categorized as a spam source and Nope. I run a bunch of lists on my own server, and I'm signed up for a lot of feedback loops. Every once in a while someone reports a message or two from a list as spam. (For reasons I have never been able to figure out, a folk dance club's members do this a lot.) So I unsubscribe them and that's that. Half the time they complain and insist that they never reported anything as spam but I am confident that they are mistaken. >all its email being filtered out because the site is now listed on one >of many "blacklists"? Nope. I have often said that any fool can run a blacklist and a lot of fools do. You can see hundreds of them at https://multirbl.valli.org/. Of those hundreds of lists I'd say perhaps three are widely used and none of them have anything to do with mail feedback loops. If you get a lot of spam feedback reports from a mailbox provider and don't do anything about it, the mailbox provider is likely to block mail from you, but what else do you expect? It's your job to send mail that people want, and not to send mail they dislike so much that they complain. R's, John From gnu at toad.com Mon Jan 15 13:52:29 2024 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 13:52:29 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> Message-ID: <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >Apparently if receivers of a distribution list email somehow tag it as >spam, it may lead to that list being categorized as a spam source Some of the biggest sources of spam deliberately don't allow the recipient to mark a message as spam. MailChimp is classic. They will let you "Unsubscribe" from a list that is spamming you, but never give you a chance to say "I'm unsubscribing BECAUSE THEY SPAMMED ME." They would rather keep collecting money from that spammer, than be told by the email recipients that they are facilitating spam. However -- almost every message that is sent through MailChimp is full of spyware. They replace every link with a link that goes through their own servers and logs who and when followed it (and which exact piece of email, to which recipient, the link came from). And they add a fake 1x1 pixel image to each message in the hope that the reader's MUA is stupid enough to download it and thereby report your mail-reading location, time, date, and each message read, to MailChimp. They have told good friends of mine at the Internet Archive that to run a mailing list through them, you MUST insert spyware into every email. And they claim it's an "anti-spam" measure to spy on every recipient, when really it's all about collecting billions of points of surveillance every day (about the innocent readers of mailing list messages) and selling them to the highest bidder. The whole ecosystem has gotten really sick. John From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jan 15 14:25:40 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine) Date: 15 Jan 2024 17:25:40 -0500 Subject: [ih] Endless misconceptions about Email reliability Message-ID: > Some of the biggest sources of spam deliberately don't allow the > recipient to mark a message as spam. MailChimp is classic. They will > let you "Unsubscribe" from a list that is spamming you, but never give > you a chance to say "I'm unsubscribing BECAUSE THEY SPAMMED ME." They > would rather keep collecting money from that spammer, than be told by > the email recipients that they are facilitating spam. I know people at Mailchimp too. Fun conspiracy theory, but nope. Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jan 15 15:22:31 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 15:22:31 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: On 1/15/24 13:52, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > The whole ecosystem has gotten really sick. > > John Traditional mail infrastructure is regulated by government entities, supported by laws, treaties, etc., that provide the authority to do so. So, repeating my earlier question: "Is there any organization or authority (ISOC, IETF, FCC, ISO, PTTs, governments, UN, whatever...) who accepts responsibility for the viability of email?" Jack Haverty -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dhc at dcrocker.net Mon Jan 15 15:26:27 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 15:26:27 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> On 1/15/2024 3:22 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > "Is there any organization or authority (ISOC, IETF, FCC, ISO, PTTs, > governments, UN, whatever...) who accepts responsibility for the > viability of email?" At Internet scale, No. Nor for the Web. Nor for operation of any other application-level service. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jan 15 16:40:47 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 16:40:47 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <22cc9c4e-771e-4511-8bde-59eaa8b48587@3kitty.org> Curious... Every other infrastructure I can think of has accreted a collection of laws, treaties, regulations, government agencies, industry groups, lobbyists, et al which collectively guide the evolution of a technology into becoming a reliable infrastructure for society.?? Or at least trying to be reliable.? Energy, transportation, postal mail, shipping, telephony, radio/TV, medical care, et al are important infrastructures for the world. Why has the Internet (including Email and the Web), which I at least think is now a similar crucial world infrastructure, not developed any similar governance machinery? Jack Haverty On 1/15/24 15:26, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 1/15/2024 3:22 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> "Is there any organization or authority (ISOC, IETF, FCC, ISO, PTTs, >> governments, UN, whatever...) who accepts responsibility for the >> viability of email?" > > At Internet scale, No. > > Nor for the Web. > > Nor for operation of any other application-level service. > > d/ > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dhc at dcrocker.net Mon Jan 15 16:57:16 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 16:57:16 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <22cc9c4e-771e-4511-8bde-59eaa8b48587@3kitty.org> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> <22cc9c4e-771e-4511-8bde-59eaa8b48587@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <7e495ce4-03b2-4a93-a325-e79cf463850f@dcrocker.net> On 1/15/2024 4:40 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Why has the Internet (including Email and the Web), which I at least > think is now a similar crucial world infrastructure, not developed any > similar governance machinery? There is the ongoing and various groups that meet, discussing Internet Governance.? Some even have the terms in their names. John Curren recently gave an interesting talk about this topic. From what I can tell, none of these groups actually /do/ governance. As I recall, one of the considerable credits given to Gore was that he got the US Congress to refrain from being helpful, in the early 1990s, and therefore they did not pass assorted laws. Some countries do have Internet-related laws for one thing or another.? For example, the US has one with the ironic (but unfortunately candid) name of CAN-SPAM. So while there are exceptions to the condition you cite, I think the primary answer to your question is:? Just lucky. d/ ps.? Anecdote:? I was on a pre-ICANN committee tasked with proposing some new top-level domain names.? It was half geeks and half bureaucrats and lawyers.? An obvious topic was intellectual property, what with competition for really prime names.? How to deal with that?? The lawyer from the WTO proposed use of International Trademark law.? IANAL but was pretty sure that didn't exist, so I asked to confirm and he did.? So we'd have to get laws passed?? Yes.? And there have been ongoing discussions, he said.? For how long, I asked?? About 100 years he answered.? I noted we had about a month to complete our report and it was unlikely we'd get the requisite laws passed. Side anecdote:? The dispute resolution mechanism that ICANN uses was proposed in our report.? Other than also putting forward the model for registries and registrars, the rest of our work was trashed by the US government. -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 17:27:04 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:27:04 +1300 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <51c3ab3c-77d5-c449-775f-ef479b5c43aa@gmail.com> On 16-Jan-24 12:26, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 1/15/2024 3:22 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> "Is there any organization or authority (ISOC, IETF, FCC, ISO, PTTs, >> governments, UN, whatever...) who accepts responsibility for the >> viability of email?" > > At Internet scale, No. > > Nor for the Web. > > Nor for operation of any other application-level service. And is this really different from snail mail? There's the International Postal Union, but living in NZ with frequent need to communicate with the rest of the world, one thing the pandemic showed me is that the international snail mail system is not viable under stress (and it hasn't fully recovered even now). Certainly the international snail mail system has never taken responsibility for the contents of mail, unless you pay extra for courier service, registered mail, recorded delivery, or whatever. And we'd greatly object to governments routinely checking the contents of snail mail. Finally, we still need those "No junk mail" stickers on our physical mailboxes, and they still don't work reliably. The analogy is stronger than I realised when I started this reply. Brian From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jan 15 17:37:59 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 15 Jan 2024 20:37:59 -0500 Subject: [ih] Every spam is sacred, was Endliss misconceptions In-Reply-To: <22cc9c4e-771e-4511-8bde-59eaa8b48587@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240116013759.E6D0C809D830@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >Why has the Internet (including Email and the Web), which I at least >think is now a similar crucial world infrastructure, not developed any >similar governance machinery? Let's look at the way paper mail works. Every country has a post office, sometimes a government agency, these days more often a public corporation like the USPS in the US and Royal Mail in the UK. In some cases its duties are split up, as in the UK where Royal Mail delivers the mail and the Post Office runs the post offices. In Germany the former government post office is now called DHL and the regulator has licensed competitors although DHL handles most German mail. Within each country mail services are heavily regulated, and the only way to send a letter is to buy a stamp and then present the letter to the local postal service somehow. International mail is managed by a web of treaties coordinated by the Universal Postal Union, an organization located in Berne, Switzerland. See upu.int. The postal revenue on international mail has settlements, splitting the revenue by complex forumlae determined partly by cost and partly by politics, notably that developing countries pay very low settlements. For historical reasons China is still considered a developing country which is why Chinese sellers on Amazon and eBay can sell you stuff and ship it from Shenzen for less than what the postage would be for a U.S. vendor. Government oversight is no guarantee that a postal service is well run. The current Postmaster General in the U.S. believes that his job is to keep the USPS from losing money, rather than to deliver the mail. So he has made deals with Amazon where they pay the USPS to deliver their packages, which is fine, but also told rural post offices to prioritize those deliveries over real mail, without adding extra staff, so the real mail doesn't get delivered. See: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/11/amazon-packages-reportedly-overwhelm-small-post-offices-delaying-other-mail/ In the UK, there has been a 25 year scandal in which the Post Office had a botched accounting system called Horizon which showed phantom shortages in the accounts of hundeds of sub-postmaters (local stores contracting with the P.O.) leading to prosecutions, jail time, and suicides for crimes that never happened. Just in the past week a TV show about the Horizon scandal sufficiently embarassed the UK government that they're finally making noises about reversing the convictions, but the cost of reimbursing the victims is so high that the Post Office is close to bankruptcy. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56718036 If I squint really hard, I suppose I can kind of imagine an e-mail system that worked this way, although the white paper I wrote 20 years ago explaning why e-postage is a bad idea is still completely relevant. See https://taugh.com/epostage.pdf Moreover, postal mail systems invariably require that all legal mail is delivered, with legal generally meaning not physically dangerous and not in a short set of prohibited categories like CSAM and terrorist promotion. Depending on who's counting, somwhere between 90% and 95% of the mail sent on the Internet today is spam. A lot of that spam is illegal, e.g., trying to phish your bank account, but a lot more is entirely legal, just annoying and unwanted. Be careful what you ask for. R's, John From dhc at dcrocker.net Mon Jan 15 18:02:00 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 18:02:00 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <51c3ab3c-77d5-c449-775f-ef479b5c43aa@gmail.com> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> <51c3ab3c-77d5-c449-775f-ef479b5c43aa@gmail.com> Message-ID: <37c93ced-4551-44f3-b37a-9d751d2fe621@dcrocker.net> On 1/15/2024 5:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > And is this really different from snail mail? There's the > International Postal Union, but living in NZ with frequent need to > communicate with the rest of the world, one thing the pandemic showed > me is that the international snail mail system is not viable under > stress (and it hasn't fully recovered even now). The question was not about efficiency or efficacy, but control. In the US, it is a federal offense to put anything through the mail slot by anyone other than the postal service. Etc. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Jan 15 18:18:35 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 15:18:35 +1300 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <37c93ced-4551-44f3-b37a-9d751d2fe621@dcrocker.net> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> <044f4e72-0251-4a72-a94c-00b5399a9be0@dcrocker.net> <51c3ab3c-77d5-c449-775f-ef479b5c43aa@gmail.com> <37c93ced-4551-44f3-b37a-9d751d2fe621@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 16-Jan-24 15:02, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 1/15/2024 5:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> And is this really different from snail mail? There's the >> International Postal Union, but living in NZ with frequent need to >> communicate with the rest of the world, one thing the pandemic showed >> me is that the international snail mail system is not viable under >> stress (and it hasn't fully recovered even now). > > The question was not about efficiency or efficacy, but control. > > In the US, it is a federal offense to put anything through the mail slot > by anyone other than the postal service. Many countries abolished the Post Office monopoly years ago, or never even had one. Well, yes, governance... what I was saying was that there is no governance of the postal system at international level - the IPU is not a governing body - and the Internet is no different, and I hope never will be. Brian From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Mon Jan 15 20:54:39 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2024 20:54:39 -0800 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jan 11, 2024, at 9:14?AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > >> From:John Shoch > >> When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of >> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included >> Nova-based PUP "gateways" > > Umm, no. I cannot speak with certainty about what Stanford and CMU got, but I > can say with great certainty that all that MIT got was several UNIBUS > Experimental Ethernet cards: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_Experimental_Ethernet_interface > > I believe, from scraps I heard about what happened at Stanford and CMU, that > it was the same there. > > We had to write code to drive them; in the MIT AI Lab, the MIT-AI ITS machine's > CHAOS-11 got a CHAOS->EFTP protocol translator (so they could print files on > the Dover); in LCS, I added code the 'C Gateway' to both talk to the > Experimental Ethernet (we sent IP packets over it; I assume that since PARC > was on the fringes [yes, I know about the 'hints' early on] of the TCP/IP > effort, they had already allocated an Experimental Ethernet packet type for > IP, and we didn't have to ask for one), and speak PUP. (Although the only > physical network on which it was prepared to send PUPs was our sole > Experimental Ethernet - so why I wrote a PUP forwarder is a mystery to me - > there was no place to send PUPs _to_.) > > (The code for both survives - I was just looking at it to give authoritative > answers about the CGW code. The CHAOS-11 code survives, too. If anyone is > curious.) > > Nobody at MIT made real use of PUPs; in LCS, we had IP, and in the AI Lab, > they has CHAOS (and of course both had our own LANs, too). Dave Clark wrote a > TCP for the Alto, and IIRC it was possible to TELNET from an Alto to a TCP/IP > host. I suspect that most of the IP traffic on the Experimental Ethernet was > TFTP packets headed to the Dover Spooler (which talked TFTP on one side, and > EFTP on the other - although not via a protocol translator, I think; IIRC it > 'buffered' files on disk). > > >> which later led to the Stanford/Cisco multi-protocol routers) > > From what I recall of Yeager's multi-protocol router at Stanford, that was > true there, but I am not sure about MIT. (My memory is not clear on how much > of an influence PUP was; see below for more - I now think it was not much.) > At MIT, we had two competing protocol families entrenched (well entrenched, > in the case of CHAOS; less so, for TCP/IP) before Ethernet and PUP arrived, > and thus had a prior incentive to uncover the multi-protocol router approach. > > There is a document from Dave Clark, "MIT Campus Network Implementation", > iniial draft dated October 1982 (which I don't have in front of me, although > I may have a copy buried in boxes somewhere), the one I do have is a later > one, from June 1983. It captures an intermediate stage in the thinking of how > multiple protocol families would be handled on the proposed MIT Campus Network. > > It talks about two approaches, the first being an "MIT Standard Network > Protocol", which would be a ubiquitous packet transport service. My > recollection is that this was the only approach mentioned in the older draft > - and that I didn't think it was practical. My take came from several > previous attempts to do something like this for CHAOS and IP (the ill-fated > 'MIT Protocol Word', or "Muppet"), which had utterly failed to get any > traction. So I proposed the "multi-protocol spine" approach, and argued Dave > into switching to that that approach in the later draft. > > To answer charges that multi-protocol routers were impractical, I wrote > multiple forwarders for the CGW (which was started, IIRC, to show that one > could get acceptable performance from a packet switch written in a HLL; the > prevous one I did was a mind-blowing kludge written in MACRO-11, whuch used > intense macrology to instantiate all N^2 packet patha in a router with N > interfaces - code also available). Which would explain why I wrote a PUP > forwarder for it, when there was no earthly operational use for it. Dave's > later draft refers to the CGW (not by name, though - merely a 'if you think > this is not feasible, we have one working'). > > Dave's draft states that the protocol families the MIT Campus Network needed > to support were CHAOS, DECNet, X.25, and IP. PUP is not mentioned (except in > passing, as one of the protocols implemented on the 'see, it can be done' > machine). This makes sense; as I mentioned, except for the CHAOS-11, no > MIT machine emitted PUPs at all. > > Noel > > PS: It's mildly irritating that Wikipedia credits Yeager for being "the > inventor of a packet-switched, "Ships in the Night", multiple-protocol > router". It was true independent co-invention; I don't think either one of us > had heard a word of what the other was doing. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history There are a couple of links to network implementation notes on the following page that mention your PUP work and other MIT campus networking activities during 1980. See NINs #25 and #33. I thought other ih list members would find this interesting. https://web.mit.edu/~saltzer/www/publications/memos.html ?gregbo From frantisek.borsik at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 03:09:51 2024 From: frantisek.borsik at gmail.com (Frantisek Borsik) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:09:51 +0100 Subject: [ih] Email reliability In-Reply-To: <20240115195504.74E018099857@ary.qy> References: <20240115195504.74E018099857@ary.qy> Message-ID: +1 ?I think the only real question is whether their ultimate plan is to battle it out between them, once they?ve destroyed email for everyone else, or whether they?re planning to remain a duopoly, so that they can pretend that there?s competition.? Why is that even called conspiracy? There are many fields and verticals that suffer from the same delusion of competition. And in fact, all we ever get is some duopoly, monopoly or something similar. Heck, it?s basically everywhere. All the best, Frank Frantisek (Frank) Borsik https://www.linkedin.com/in/frantisekborsik Signal, Telegram, WhatsApp: +421919416714 iMessage, mobile: +420775230885 Skype: casioa5302ca frantisek.borsik at gmail.com On Mon, 15 Jan 2024 at 8:55 PM, John Levine via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > It appears that Bill Woodcock via Internet-history said: > >Ultimately, though, they?re not trying to get anyone else to do what they > say, they?re trying to get everyone else to give up on trying to reach their > >arbitrarily moving goalposts. > > > >I think the only real question is whether their ultimate plan is to > battle it out between them, once they?ve destroyed email for everyone else, > or whether > >they?re planning to remain a duopoly, so that they can pretend that > there?s competition. > > I know a lot of people who work for large mail providers and even for > (egad) Spamhaus. > > While this kind of conspiracy nonseense is fun, it's not very useful or > productive. > > R's, > John > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From chet.ramey at case.edu Tue Jan 16 06:59:09 2024 From: chet.ramey at case.edu (Chet Ramey) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 09:59:09 -0500 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: On 1/15/24 4:52 PM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > However -- almost every message that is sent through MailChimp is full > of spyware. They replace every link with a link that goes through their > own servers and logs who and when followed it (and which exact piece of > email, to which recipient, the link came from). And they add a fake 1x1 > pixel image to each message in the hope that the reader's MUA is stupid > enough to download it and thereby report your mail-reading location, > time, date, and each message read, to MailChimp. That is the service MailChimp sells: marketing on top of email. Organizations like, say, Alumni Relations or University Marketing and Communications here are very interested in the success of their email campaigns, or how widely read their messages to the university community are: who opens the emails they send, which links in those emails spark interest, what the click-through rate is for those links, personal interests for particular campaigns, potentially targeted event notification, and so on. If they want to use email to communicate with customers -- and they do, for whatever definition of customer you like -- they also want to know to make that pay off with engagement (and, of course, donations). Chet -- ``The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne.'' - Chaucer ``Ars longa, vita brevis'' - Hippocrates Chet Ramey, UTech, CWRU chet at case.edu http://tiswww.cwru.edu/~chet/ From dave.taht at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 08:33:48 2024 From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:33:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 Message-ID: Another era, passed. https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.filk/c/MezeED1IXpA -- 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E Dave T?ht CSO, LibreQos From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Jan 16 08:51:04 2024 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 10:51:04 -0600 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No, Google Groups (proper) is not going away. What is going away is Google Groups *Usenet* connectivity. Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups /will/ /no/ /longer/ /support/ *new* *Usenet* *content*. Google Groups proper, independent of Usenet is not going anywhere. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From el at lisse.na Tue Jan 16 09:03:26 2024 From: el at lisse.na (Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 19:03:26 +0200 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The amount of spam one gets on those groups is irritating. el -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP 10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply On Jan 16, 2024 at 18:51 +0200, Grant Taylor via Internet-history , wrote: > No, Google Groups (proper) is not going away. > > What is going away is Google Groups *Usenet* connectivity. > > Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups /will/ /no/ /longer/ > /support/ *new* *Usenet* *content*. > > Google Groups proper, independent of Usenet is not going anywhere. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 11:16:02 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 08:16:02 +1300 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d731ba5-1dfc-b8a0-c458-d741f49e2303@gmail.com> On 17-Jan-24 06:03, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: > The amount of spam one gets on those groups is irritating. But people have been saying that since before alt. was invented (1987?). Brian > > el > > > -- > Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist > el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) > PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP > 10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply > On Jan 16, 2024 at 18:51 +0200, Grant Taylor via Internet-history , wrote: >> No, Google Groups (proper) is not going away. >> >> What is going away is Google Groups *Usenet* connectivity. >> >> Effective February 22, 2024, Google Groups /will/ /no/ /longer/ >> /support/ *new* *Usenet* *content*. >> >> Google Groups proper, independent of Usenet is not going anywhere. >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From ocl at gih.com Tue Jan 16 11:23:15 2024 From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?=) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 19:23:15 +0000 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/01/2024 16:33, Dave Taht via Internet-history wrote: > Another era, passed. > > https://groups.google.com/g/rec.music.filk/c/MezeED1IXpA > > What matters is that the USENET archive held at Google remains. How much of this has already disappeared? I know there was some discussion a few years ago about this. With decreasing storage costs, is there a chance that we're not going to see bit rot affect Usenet archives? Amongst the chaff there was some real gold in them thar networks... Best wishes, Olivier From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jan 16 11:27:10 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 11:27:10 -0800 Subject: [ih] Endliss misconceptions about Email reliability In-Reply-To: References: <20240115211936.1BBA68099F5E@ary.qy> <2419.1705355549@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <333bdea6-446b-4336-b182-1d110343d9a1@3kitty.org> On 1/16/24 06:59, Chet Ramey via Internet-history wrote: > If they want to use email to communicate with customers -- and they > do, for > whatever definition of customer you like -- they also want to know to > make > that pay off with engagement (and, of course, donations). You might consider this behavior as seen by the other side -- do "customers" want to use email to be flooded with a firehose stream of marketing campaigns, political messages, requests for donations, social media posts, and other email they didn't ask for and don't want? Personally, I have separate mailboxes that I use whenever I'm forced to provide my email address.? I receive hundreds of messages per day on those addresses, and every few weeks I just delete them all. More precisely, my computer downloads them all and deletes them.? I wonder if the sender thinks I read them. For my "real" mailboxes, I do also get unwanted email but it's usually easy to recognize and I simply tag it as spam.?? If it happens frequently enough, I set up an automatic filter to do so. I also avoid using "unsubscribe" buttons or links, since that seems to sometimes simply confirm that an actual human has read the message, tagging my email address as a more valuable target for marketing. People I know have similar strategies to try to handle their incoming email and "separate the wheat from the chaff".?? It would be interesting to know what kind of effect such behavior has on the metrics of "success of email campaigns", and whether or not anti-spam techniques actually reduce spam, or perhaps instead increase it because more emails still result in more success.?? In the datagram world of the Internet, if your packet gets lost, you simply send it again.? The same philosophy might be (is?) used in email. Collectively we call this "spam", and IMHO it's been getting worse over the years, triggering a flurry of "anti-spam" and "privacy" efforts, which have unfortunate side-effects affecting reliability of email.? Coupled with the effects of misinformation and disinformation, the SNR (Signal/Noise Ratio) of The Internet has been dropping.? IMHO. Curiously, a similar effect has been occurring in telephony, with the advent of "robocalls", and various efforts to control them. Like email, there is essentially no marginal cost to making another phone call.? My bill for my phone is the same, no matter how much I use it. For the historians... Back in the early days of email (early 1970s), I was involved in a research project with JCR Licklider at MIT, exploring the potential of the then-new Arpanet.?? Since Lick was a psychologist by training, we explored some of the non-technical aspects of networking, and in particular "human-human communication" such as email.?? One of the conclusions was that it would be important to have some kind of "negative feedback" to prevent abuse of the technology - i.e., some "cost" of sending email to suppress the gluttony fostered by "all you can eat" designs. We explored the concept of "stamps" for email, analogous to the postal system, as well as other concepts like "registered" or "priority" mail, with appropriately different costs.? Costs didn't have to be monetary - simple constraints such as a limit on the number of messages per hour, day, or week could also provide the negative feedback of backpressure. Sadly, such mechanisms were not popular, and deferred for some future version of email.?? Fifty years later, sometimes I wonder if all of us sitting at our desktops, laptops, or smart devices are the actual users of The Internet.? Or are we the products whose attention is being sold over The Internet to the legions of companies and organizations that think of us as their customers? Jack Haverty -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From johnl at iecc.com Tue Jan 16 11:37:28 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 16 Jan 2024 14:37:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com Message-ID: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> The domain in an e-mail addresss after the @ sign has to be a hostname. RFC 1035 says that a hostname contains letters, digits, and hyphens, with the first character being a letter. RFC 1035 was published in November 1987, but 3com.com was registered in December 1986. It is my vague recollection that the initial letter rule was inherited from HOSTS.TXT, but since everyone knew Bob Metcalfe, they said, oh, all right, a leading digit is OK so long as it's not all digits. Does anyone remember the details? RFC1035 is still the official standard for hostnames, and the initial letter rule has been wrong for a long time. R's, John PS: This came up as we are finally trying to update RFCs 5321 and 5322 to match reality. From johnl at iecc.com Tue Jan 16 11:42:17 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 16 Jan 2024 14:42:17 -0500 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <5d731ba5-1dfc-b8a0-c458-d741f49e2303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20240116194217.A4A7A80A8CD1@ary.qy> It appears that Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history said: >On 17-Jan-24 06:03, Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: >> The amount of spam one gets on those groups is irritating. > >But people have been saying that since before alt. was invented (1987?). Google Groups sends so much spam to Usenet that a lot of nodes (mine) already drop all their messages because it's not worth picking out the trickle of real ones. Google apparently decided it wasn't worth the effort to police the spammers in Groups, so it's just cutting the last threads of the cord. Now that the world considers Usenet to be dead, the rest of the spammers have mostly gone away and the remaining newsgroups are quite active and useful. Think of it as a mostly text version of Mastodon. R's, John From johnl at iecc.com Tue Jan 16 11:44:31 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 16 Jan 2024 14:44:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20240116194431.6543080A8D69@ary.qy> It appears that Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history said: >What matters is that the USENET archive held at Google remains. >How much of this has already disappeared? As far as I know, they're not planning to delete what's already there. >I know there was some discussion a few years ago about this. With >decreasing storage costs, is there a chance that we're not going to see >bit rot affect Usenet archives? Amongst the chaff there was some real >gold in them thar networks... It is my impression that large usenet providers like Giganews in fact keep everything except messages for which they get DMCA notices. So you may have to search two places but the archive is still pretty complete. R's, John From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Jan 16 12:07:40 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:07:40 -0800 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> Message-ID: <85C7265E-8102-445C-BB3B-6B7DCE3F0C66@icloud.com> On Jan 16, 2024, at 11:37?AM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > > The domain in an e-mail addresss after the @ sign has to be a > hostname. RFC 1035 says that a hostname contains letters, digits, and > hyphens, with the first character being a letter. > > RFC 1035 was published in November 1987, but 3com.com was registered > in December 1986. It is my vague recollection that the initial letter > rule was inherited from HOSTS.TXT, but since everyone knew Bob > Metcalfe, they said, oh, all right, a leading digit is OK so long as > it's not all digits. > > Does anyone remember the details? RFC1035 is still the official > standard for hostnames, and the initial letter rule has been wrong for > a long time. > > R's, > John > > PS: This came up as we are finally trying to update RFCs 5321 and 5322 > to match reality. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history I don?t know the answer to your question, but it came up on the namedroppers list, so perhaps that?s a good place to start. Try the thread started by this post: https://marc.info/?l=namedroppers&m=95837781926844&w=2 ?gregbo From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 16 12:22:02 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 12:22:02 -0800 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <85C7265E-8102-445C-BB3B-6B7DCE3F0C66@icloud.com> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <85C7265E-8102-445C-BB3B-6B7DCE3F0C66@icloud.com> Message-ID: On 1/16/2024 12:07 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > https://marc.info/?l=namedroppers&m=95837781926844&w=2 Stellar: > This whole discussion is begining to remind me of the "ask not what > your computer can do for you, ask what you can do for your computer" -For MCI Mail (shortly before the time of this thread) we let user's choose their own login names.? And permitted multiple users to have the same name.? (We assigned disambiguating passwords.) We needed to parse the names for prefix and postfix strings, to find the actual name.? So, obviously, Mr. Mrs. Ms. were easy to parse.? As was Equire, MD, PhD, and MA. And considered a rule that a name had to be more than 2 characters. Until we realized the problem both of these actions would be a problem for Yo Yo Ma. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Jan 16 14:39:13 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 14:39:13 -0800 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <85C7265E-8102-445C-BB3B-6B7DCE3F0C66@icloud.com> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <85C7265E-8102-445C-BB3B-6B7DCE3F0C66@icloud.com> Message-ID: On Jan 16, 2024, at 12:07?PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > > On Jan 16, 2024, at 11:37?AM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: >> >> The domain in an e-mail addresss after the @ sign has to be a >> hostname. RFC 1035 says that a hostname contains letters, digits, and >> hyphens, with the first character being a letter. >> >> RFC 1035 was published in November 1987, but 3com.com was registered >> in December 1986. It is my vague recollection that the initial letter >> rule was inherited from HOSTS.TXT, but since everyone knew Bob >> Metcalfe, they said, oh, all right, a leading digit is OK so long as >> it's not all digits. >> >> Does anyone remember the details? RFC1035 is still the official >> standard for hostnames, and the initial letter rule has been wrong for >> a long time. >> >> R's, >> John >> >> PS: This came up as we are finally trying to update RFCs 5321 and 5322 >> to match reality. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > I don?t know the answer to your question, but it came up on the namedroppers list, so perhaps that?s a good place to start. Try the thread started by this post: > > https://marc.info/?l=namedroppers&m=95837781926844&w=2 > > ?gregbo > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history A couple of additional notes: * Later in the thread, Erik Fair tied the issue to hosts.txt. [1] * The earliest mention I could find in the RFC series specifying that a host name start with a letter is in RFC608. [2] [1] https://marc.info/?l=namedroppers&m=95837781926858&w=2 [2] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc608.html From ajs at crankycanuck.ca Tue Jan 16 15:29:33 2024 From: ajs at crankycanuck.ca (Andrew Sullivan) Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2024 18:29:33 -0500 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> Message-ID: <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 02:37:28PM -0500, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: >Does anyone remember the details? RFC1035 is still the official >standard for hostnames, and the initial letter rule has been wrong for >a long time. Hi, What you want is RFC 1123, section 2.1: The syntax of a legal Internet host name was specified in RFC-952 [DNS:4]. One aspect of host name syntax is hereby changed: the restriction on the first character is relaxed to allow either a letter or a digit. Host software MUST support this more liberal syntax. Bob Braden actually referred to this to me in a conversation one time as "the 3Com exception". Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs at crankycanuck.ca From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Jan 16 18:20:21 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 15:20:21 +1300 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> Message-ID: Yes but, but, 1123 is *host* requirements and 952 was about /etc/hosts. (FYA, I just checked and Windows 10 allows entries in C:\Windows\System32\drivers\etc\hosts that start with a digit.) 1123 didn't update 1035, which is about domain names. Maybe that should be submitted as an erratum. (Yes, I did read some of the namedroppers thread that was cited, and the argument about whether host names are different from domain names is hardly new.) Regards Brian On 17-Jan-24 12:29, Andrew Sullivan via Internet-history wrote: > On Tue, Jan 16, 2024 at 02:37:28PM -0500, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > >> Does anyone remember the details? RFC1035 is still the official >> standard for hostnames, and the initial letter rule has been wrong for >> a long time. > > Hi, > > What you want is RFC 1123, section 2.1: > > > The syntax of a legal Internet host name was specified in RFC-952 > [DNS:4]. One aspect of host name syntax is hereby changed: the > restriction on the first character is relaxed to allow either a > letter or a digit. Host software MUST support this more liberal > syntax. > > Bob Braden actually referred to this to me in a conversation one time as "the 3Com exception". > > Best regards, > > A > From ajs at crankycanuck.ca Wed Jan 17 12:28:22 2024 From: ajs at crankycanuck.ca (Andrew Sullivan) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 15:28:22 -0500 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> Message-ID: <3wgnkmr6l2oja5xptho2umcspso7zfge6yvbtw6u4336xa4df5@43s7ohjot7es> On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 03:20:21PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >Yes but, but, 1123 is *host* requirements and 952 was about /etc/hosts. Yes. >1123 didn't update 1035, which is about domain names. Maybe that should be submitted as an erratum. > I don't think it should be. RFC 1035 doesn't actually require the "preferred name syntax". People sometimes read section 2.3.1 as such a requirement, but it isn't one. This is made quite explicit in RFC 2181, section 11: Those restrictions [length and the location of the zero-length label] aside, any binary string whatever can be used as the label of any resource record. Similarly, any binary string can serve as the value of any record that includes a domain name as some or all of its value (SOA, NS, MX, PTR, CNAME, and any others that may be added). Implementations of the DNS protocols must not place any restrictions on the labels that can be used. In particular, DNS servers must not refuse to serve a zone because it contains labels that might not be acceptable to some DNS client programs. Best regards, A -- Andrew Sullivan ajs at crankycanuck.ca From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jan 17 13:02:00 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 13:02:00 -0800 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <3wgnkmr6l2oja5xptho2umcspso7zfge6yvbtw6u4336xa4df5@43s7ohjot7es> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> <3wgnkmr6l2oja5xptho2umcspso7zfge6yvbtw6u4336xa4df5@43s7ohjot7es> Message-ID: <646725b7-a643-482c-b7bb-5d60a394f9c1@3kitty.org> All of these acronyms and RFCs (such as referenced in recent announcements of imminent new rules for sending email) are pretty confusing.?? Some things are "standards"; others are "draft standards", and some are just "standards track". If I am an entrepreneur musing about writing a new mail system, both clients and server, totally from scratch with no use of existing libraries or such, is there any place where I can find the complete set of specifications for what my new software has to do in order to interoperate with the rest of Internet email? How do I sort through thousands of RFCs to figure out what's actually important? Or do I just build something as yet another silo. Jack Haverty PS - No, I'm not going to write another email system...but maybe someone will.?? Perhaps a new-fangled quantum computer program that can generate spam at rates never seen before? ? Powered by AI of course... On 1/17/24 12:28, Andrew Sullivan via Internet-history wrote: > On Wed, Jan 17, 2024 at 03:20:21PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via > Internet-history wrote: >> Yes but, but, 1123 is *host* requirements and 952 was about /etc/hosts. > > Yes. >> 1123 didn't update 1035, which is about domain names. Maybe that >> should be submitted as an erratum. >> > > I don't think it should be.? RFC 1035 doesn't actually require the > "preferred name syntax".? People sometimes read section 2.3.1 as such > a requirement, but it isn't one.? This is made quite explicit in RFC > 2181, section 11: > > ?? Those restrictions [length and the location of the zero-length label] > ?? aside, any binary string whatever can be used as the label of any > ?? resource record.? Similarly, any binary string can serve as the value > ?? of any record that includes a domain name as some or all of its value > ?? (SOA, NS, MX, PTR, CNAME, and any others that may be added). > ?? Implementations of the DNS protocols must not place any restrictions > ?? on the labels that can be used.? In particular, DNS servers must not > ?? refuse to serve a zone because it contains labels that might not be > ?? acceptable to some DNS client programs. > Best regards, > > A > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From gnu at toad.com Wed Jan 17 15:02:12 2024 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 15:02:12 -0800 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <646725b7-a643-482c-b7bb-5d60a394f9c1@3kitty.org> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> <3wgnkmr6l2oja5xptho2umcspso7zfge6yvbtw6u4336xa4df5@43s7ohjot7es> <646725b7-a643-482c-b7bb-5d60a394f9c1@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <23786.1705532532@hop.toad.com> Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > If I am an entrepreneur musing about writing a new mail system, both > clients and server, totally from scratch with no use of existing > libraries or such, is there any place where I can find the complete > set of specifications for what my new software has to do in order to > interoperate with the rest of Internet email? In short, no. The "Host Requirements" and "Gateway Requirements" RFCs from 1989 were originally intended to gather a lot of the miscellaneous changes into a small number of documents (including a bibliography of the basic specs like IP, TCP, and SMTP). However, it has been a long time since new versions of these compendia came out, and of course the originals were never perfect. They preceded important things like CIDR, DHCP, and HTTP that have become essential in the modern Internet. For an oversight of the process that created them, see Bob Braden's "A Perspective on the Host Requirements RFCs": https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1127.html And here is its paragraph on unresolved future work in email protocols: (15) SMTP: Global Mail Addressing While writing requirements for electronic mail, the working group was urged to set rules for SMTP and RFC-822 that would be universal, applicable not only to the Internet environment but also to the other mail environments that use one or both of these protocols. The working group chose to ignore this Siren call, and instead limit the HR RFC to requirements specific to the Internet. However, the networking world would certainly benefit from some global agreements on mail routing. Strong passions are lurking here. John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Jan 17 16:53:41 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 13:53:41 +1300 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: <23786.1705532532@hop.toad.com> References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> <3wgnkmr6l2oja5xptho2umcspso7zfge6yvbtw6u4336xa4df5@43s7ohjot7es> <646725b7-a643-482c-b7bb-5d60a394f9c1@3kitty.org> <23786.1705532532@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: On 18-Jan-24 12:02, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> If I am an entrepreneur musing about writing a new mail system, both >> clients and server, totally from scratch with no use of existing >> libraries or such, is there any place where I can find the complete >> set of specifications for what my new software has to do in order to >> interoperate with the rest of Internet email? > > In short, no. It turns out to be a hard problem, which the IETF has been aware of at some level for a couple of decades, but has never solved. For a slice of history, please glance at: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-newtrk-repurposing-isd/ which the IESG failed to find consensus on. (Partly my fault, because I was IETF/IESG Chair at the time, but the conflicting opinions appeared to be irreconcilable.) There's a worked example that covers a couple of corners of the email problem as it was 20 years ago: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-newtrk-sample-isd/ > > The "Host Requirements" and "Gateway Requirements" RFCs from 1989 were > originally intended to gather a lot of the miscellaneous changes into a > small number of documents (including a bibliography of the basic specs > like IP, TCP, and SMTP). However, it has been a long time since new > versions of these compendia came out, In fairness, IPv6 Node Requirements is close to up to date and is being revised again at present: https://www.rfc-editor.org/info/bcp220 But if you don't find the following link scary, you are braver than me: https://github.com/becarpenter/book6/blob/main/20.%20Further%20Reading/RFC%20bibliography.md Brian > and of course the originals were > never perfect. They preceded important things like CIDR, DHCP, and HTTP > that have become essential in the modern Internet. > > For an oversight of the process that created them, see Bob Braden's > "A Perspective on the Host Requirements RFCs": > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1127.html > > And here is its paragraph on unresolved future work in email protocols: > > (15) SMTP: Global Mail Addressing > > While writing requirements for electronic mail, the working group > was urged to set rules for SMTP and RFC-822 that would be > universal, applicable not only to the Internet environment but > also to the other mail environments that use one or both of these > protocols. The working group chose to ignore this Siren call, and > instead limit the HR RFC to requirements specific to the Internet. > However, the networking world would certainly benefit from some > global agreements on mail routing. Strong passions are lurking > here. > > John > From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Jan 17 20:09:03 2024 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 17 Jan 2024 22:09:03 -0600 Subject: [ih] google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <20240116194431.6543080A8D69@ary.qy> References: <20240116194431.6543080A8D69@ary.qy> Message-ID: <9119ac79-e059-476d-9e78-a51b424d7fa4@tnetconsulting.net> On 1/16/24 13:44, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > As far as I know, they're not planning to delete what's already there. It's Google. The king of discontinuing things when it suits them. I wouldn't trust them as far as I could throw them. No offense intended to you John. -- Grant. . . . From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jan 18 10:13:49 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 10:13:49 -0800 Subject: [ih] Tell me about host names and 3com In-Reply-To: References: <20240116193729.9AD3880A8C4D@ary.qy> <5zcwiof27epuyyhelyixyuluen4h6c2mqshnmxd3arzonbjkkp@rtvrcxe4brpe> <3wgnkmr6l2oja5xptho2umcspso7zfge6yvbtw6u4336xa4df5@43s7ohjot7es> <646725b7-a643-482c-b7bb-5d60a394f9c1@3kitty.org> <23786.1705532532@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <39451bd1-de40-46e6-8c2d-97582214acae@dcrocker.net> n 1/17/2024 4:53 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > On 18-Jan-24 12:02, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: >> Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> wrote: >>> If I am an entrepreneur musing about writing a new mail system, both >>> clients and server, totally from scratch with no use of existing >>> libraries or such, is there any place where I can find the complete >>> set of specifications for what my new software has to do in order to >>> interoperate with the rest of Internet email? >> >> In short, no. > > It turns out to be a hard problem, which the IETF has been aware of > at some level for a couple of decades, but has never solved. Some years ago, I started a project to satisfy exactly the kind of need you expressed. I could not get any traction for it.? Here is the prototype that was produced: Technology Document Suites <#> ? https://bbiw.net/clusters/ The combination of this and my earlier Success/Failure documentation effort (*) suggests that the fun of producing documents is not matched with a general, follow-on concern about actual utility. Obviously individuals and groups, here and there, do care about utility.? But the IETF, as a body, leaves such issues to others, except marginally when full standardization is sought. There is no community interest in tracking and assessing overall IETF effectiveness. d/ > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: Re: [ih] IETF relevance (was Memories of Flag Day?) > Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 15:55:28 -0700 > From: Dave Crocker > > To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > On 8/10/2023 9:35 AM, Scott Bradner via Internet-history wrote: >> mixed picture of IETF relevance > > In 2009, I explored creating a wiki for assessing IETF successes and > failures.? With help from a couple of others I compiled data on a > number of efforts, in order to give the pseudo-wiki flesh. It was > intended for community maintenance and enhancement. > > When I queried about interest in it, ISOC got all excited and made a > big splash about it, and published it at isoc.org. > > No one ever attempted to add anything to it.? And it's gone from ISOC.\ Here is a rendering of a page from that: ietf-sucfail-01dc.html <#> ? https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5pt3e1g96aaledt7judff/ietf-sucfail-01dc.html?rlkey=tcr9byd2b86vijhk6l49r5k3c&dl=0 -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 17:35:14 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 20:35:14 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away Message-ID: His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. R.I.P. vint From karl at iwl.com Thu Jan 18 17:40:56 2024 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 17:40:56 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <26d79c2e-c2d6-475f-947d-6aa118ad90b5@iwl.com> Oh my, We have lost Father Time. We have all - everyone? has -? been the beneficiary of his ideas and work. ??? ??? --karl-- On 1/18/24 5:35 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully > on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. > vint From dave.taht at gmail.com Thu Jan 18 17:41:44 2024 From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht) Date: Thu, 18 Jan 2024 20:41:44 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: oh, darn! I was just thinking about him the other day. I thought that our industry should give him a giant gold pocketwatch for his retirement, synced to an atomic clock.... Never met him. Would have loved to. RIP On Thu, Jan 18, 2024 at 8:35?PM vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully > on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. > vint > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E Dave T?ht CSO, LibreQos From paf at paftech.se Fri Jan 19 03:36:50 2024 From: paf at paftech.se (=?utf-8?b?IlBhdHJpayBGw6RsdHN0csO2bSI=?=) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:36:50 +0100 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> On 19 Jan 2024, at 2:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. Indeed... :-( Patrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dave.taht at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 05:06:31 2024 From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 08:06:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> References: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> Message-ID: Some discussion on hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39051246 I did not know he invented the 16-pulse "tactical Loran-C" during the Vietnam War. And, to the Jim Croce tune If I could save time in a protocol The first thing that I'd like to do Is to save every day 'Til eternity passes away Just to spend them with you On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 6:37?AM "Patrik F?ltstr?m" via Internet-history wrote: > > On 19 Jan 2024, at 2:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > > > R.I.P. > > Indeed... :-( > > Patrik > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- 40 years of net history, a couple songs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9RGX6QFm5E Dave T?ht CSO, LibreQos From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Jan 19 07:12:20 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 15:12:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> References: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> Message-ID: <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> I believe I first met Dave Mills when he was at Linkabit in the early 80s.? Even though I also think of him as Father Time,? his Fuzzballs were a frequent topic at meetings I attended.? In checking my Linkabit memory,? I found this oral history. I always enjoyed meetings more when he was present. https://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/113899 barbara On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 03:37:07 AM PST, Patrik F?ltstr?m" via Internet-history wrote: On 19 Jan 2024, at 2:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. Indeed... :-( Patrik -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Fri Jan 19 07:16:03 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:16:03 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: thanks Barbara. I am accumulating Dave Mills stories here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XU6Fn5rFeJLO4mIBSa9e8V8BIDwafI0Lvlmi4gQwcmE/edit?usp=sharing v On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 10:13?AM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I believe I first met Dave Mills when he was at Linkabit in the early > 80s. Even though I also think of him as Father Time, his Fuzzballs were a > frequent topic at meetings I attended. In checking my Linkabit memory, I > found this oral history. I always enjoyed meetings more when he was present. > https://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/113899 > > barbara > On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 03:37:07 AM PST, Patrik F?ltstr?m" via > Internet-history wrote: > > On 19 Jan 2024, at 2:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away > peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early > Internet. > > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > > > R.I.P. > > Indeed... :-( > > Patrik > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From poslfit at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 08:49:20 2024 From: poslfit at gmail.com (John Chew) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 11:49:20 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> References: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I never got to meet Dave Mills, but this conversation has dredged up happy but faded memories of writing an NTP driver for in-house use on some Macs in the late 1980s. I remember being impressed with the elegance of the design of the protocol, and how easy it made my task. Thanks and RIP, Dave. John On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 10:13?AM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I believe I first met Dave Mills when he was at Linkabit in the early > 80s. Even though I also think of him as Father Time, his Fuzzballs were a > frequent topic at meetings I attended. In checking my Linkabit memory, I > found this oral history. I always enjoyed meetings more when he was present. > https://conservancy.umn.edu/handle/11299/113899 > > barbara > On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 03:37:07 AM PST, Patrik F?ltstr?m" via > Internet-history wrote: > > On 19 Jan 2024, at 2:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away > peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early > Internet. > > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > > > R.I.P. > > Indeed... :-( > > Patrik > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- John Chew * +1 416 876 7675 * http://www.poslfit.com * poslfit at gmail.com (math-related) jjchew at math.utoronto.ca (NASPA business) info at scrabbleplayers.org From jtk at dataplane.org Fri Jan 19 08:50:26 2024 From: jtk at dataplane.org (John Kristoff) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:50:26 -0600 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20240119105026.4ab5744b@dataplane.org> On Thu, 18 Jan 2024 20:35:14 -0500 vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away > peacefully on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the > early Internet. Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the > early NSFNET, INARG taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of > Delaware and so much more. I regret never having the opportunity to meet Dave in person, but it should come as no surprise that his impact and influence was vast. I searched around for my earliest references when I was putting together time servers for a university where I was doing netops at the turn of the century. I ended up using some old (at the time) 1U Cisco 2500/2600 routers as stratum-2's on campus. These things had lifetime warranties which was an advantage, but one of the main reasons I felt comfortable using these things for time service was a note I came across that Dave wrote. He said Dave Katz essentially put ntpd's v3 code in these things. That was good enough for me. John From olejacobsen at me.com Fri Jan 19 09:26:45 2024 From: olejacobsen at me.com (Ole Jacobsen) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 09:26:45 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry to hear that. Our community has indeed lost a very special person. My memories of Dave go back to my days when I was working at the Norwegian Telecommunications Administration Research Establishment (NTARE) with Paal Spilling. Dave had a Fuzzball router at NTARE and would occasionally send us instructions and pointers to patches he had made while were all asleep. His use of language always amused me: "I left on your Fuzzball a flock of files..." He will be missed! Ole > On Jan 18, 2024, at 17:35, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully > on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. > vint > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history Ole J. Jacobsen Editor and Publisher The Internet Protocol Journal Office: +1 415-550-9433 Cell: +1 415-370-4628 Docomo: +81 90 3337-9311 Web: protocoljournal.org E-mail: olejacobsen at me.com E-mail: ole at protocoljournal.org From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Jan 19 10:24:59 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:24:59 -0800 Subject: [ih] Milestone in IPv4->IPv6 migration..? Message-ID: <459c9b44-0721-4052-9988-cfaa50abf5fb@3kitty.org> Saw this recently: "Starting February 1st, 2024, AWS will charge for IPv4 addresses, a move set to impact many infrastructure companies. This new cost is approximately $4 per month per address. Companies have options like passing this cost onto customers, using workarounds such as proxies, or switching entirely to IPv6." Seems like a historical milestone, assuming this is the first time for a monthly charge for IP addresses.? Anyone know of something similar, earlier in the long timeline of IPv6 transition?? I know there have been charges for a "static IPv4 address" for a long time for ISP subscribers, but is this the first for servers? Jack Haverty -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jtk at dataplane.org Fri Jan 19 10:47:46 2024 From: jtk at dataplane.org (John Kristoff) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:47:46 -0600 Subject: [ih] Milestone in IPv4->IPv6 migration..? In-Reply-To: <459c9b44-0721-4052-9988-cfaa50abf5fb@3kitty.org> References: <459c9b44-0721-4052-9988-cfaa50abf5fb@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240119124746.45198752@dataplane.org> On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 10:24:59 -0800 Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > I know there have been charges for a "static IPv4 address" for a long > time for ISP subscribers, but is this the first for servers? There have been some providers doing this for awhile now, but by far AWS is the biggest to do it by default. Many providers have offered what is essentially v6-only for a discount, then charging an additional amount to get v4. MythicBeasts was probably the first to offer an IPv6-only VM. DigitalOcean, Vultr, SSDNodes, Hetzner, EUServ, and probably a bunch more have all had some sort of v6-only and v4 for an additional plan for awhile. A few smaller, lesser known hosting providers will sell a v6 + v4 NAT plan. John From johnl at iecc.com Fri Jan 19 10:53:26 2024 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 19 Jan 2024 13:53:26 -0500 Subject: [ih] Not a Milestone in IPv4->IPv6 migration..? In-Reply-To: <459c9b44-0721-4052-9988-cfaa50abf5fb@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20240119185326.505418103F44@ary.qy> It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >-=-=-=-=-=- >Seems like a historical milestone, assuming this is the first time for a >monthly charge for IP addresses.? AWS has been charging for IPv4 addresses for years. The change is that the price has gone up. They used only to charge separately for addresses that were not attached to running virtual machines, presumably on the theory that you're paying for the VM and the charge is part of that. Now they charge all the time. The charge is pretty small, half a cent per hour, or about $3.50/month. Lots of virtual hosts have a pricing model where you get one IPv4 address and pay for any extra. Digital Ocean charges $5/mo, again waiving the fee when it's attached to a running machine. AWS is pretty good about giving you your own /64 for IPv6 adresses, but other places just put all their customers in the same /64 unless you complain (and sometimes even if you do complain) which can lead to reputation issues. R's, John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 11:14:15 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 08:14:15 +1300 Subject: [ih] Not a Milestone in IPv4->IPv6 migration..? In-Reply-To: <20240119185326.505418103F44@ary.qy> References: <20240119185326.505418103F44@ary.qy> Message-ID: <62ec0fd1-83b3-bdb6-90bf-0a373ee483d3@gmail.com> It's worth noting that there are people with a vested interest in high prices for IPv4 addresses, and therefore a vested interest in *slowing* the adoption of IPv6. There are also literally thousands of netops people in small or medium businesses and small IPSs for whom the move to supporting IPv6 is seen as an unnecessary expense. Until there is real practical cost in *not* supporting IPv6, this won't change. It's a bit annoying that IPv4 allows ~4 billion addresses. That is enough to allow a stable state in which about half the world has upgraded to bigger addresses. If the limit had been much lower, say ~500 million addresses, we'd be close to 100% IPv6 deployment by now. Regards Brian Carpenter On 20-Jan-24 07:53, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history said: >> -=-=-=-=-=- >> Seems like a historical milestone, assuming this is the first time for a >> monthly charge for IP addresses. > > AWS has been charging for IPv4 addresses for years. The change is that > the price has gone up. They used only to charge separately for > addresses that were not attached to running virtual machines, > presumably on the theory that you're paying for the VM and the charge > is part of that. Now they charge all the time. > > The charge is pretty small, half a cent per hour, or about $3.50/month. > > Lots of virtual hosts have a pricing model where you get one IPv4 address > and pay for any extra. Digital Ocean charges $5/mo, again waiving the fee > when it's attached to a running machine. > > AWS is pretty good about giving you your own /64 for IPv6 adresses, > but other places just put all their customers in the same /64 unless > you complain (and sometimes even if you do complain) which can lead to > reputation issues. > > R's, > John From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Jan 19 12:42:29 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 12:42:29 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <990823a4-31fb-4371-92d3-e66db0d9cee7@3kitty.org> > I am accumulating Dave Mills stories here: > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XU6Fn5rFeJLO4mIBSa9e8V8BIDwafI0Lvlmi4gQwcmE/edit?usp=sharing For your Mills Compendium: -------------------------------------------------- In the infancy of The Internet during the early 1980s, Dave was my friend and colleague.? He was always curious, competent, innovative, informative, and playful - for example, I learned from Dave that the popular PING tool was actually an acronym: Packet InterNet Groper. Internet meetings and mailing list debates were fun when Dave was involved. Dave was also my nemesis.?? As the explorer and tinkerer scientist, Dave was always trying out new ideas for his potent army of Fuzzies - the small computers he was seeding around the Internet.? At the time, my task from Arpa was to "make the core Internet run as a reliable service".?? Tinkering and Reliability do not mix well. Dave was the Scientist of the Internet.?? At Internet meetings, Dave would report on his latest Fuzzy Adventures.?? I can paraphrase his reports as "I tickled the Internet with a Fuzzy stick and it turned pink!"? My reaction was always "Don't do that!!" Few people probably realize one of Dave's crucial contributions to Internet technology - the concept of "Autonomous Systems", which survives today, 40 years later.? Dave didn't invent it, but he caused it.? The antics of his Fuzzies forced Eric Rosen and I to create Autonomous Systems and EGP as a "firewall" mechanism to keep the Internet "core" safe from the marauding Fuzzies and their occasional collateral damage. Scientists yearn to measure things.? Engineers just want to make it work.? In the 1980s, the scientist part of Dave needed to measure time on the Internet and there was no way to do that.?? So he created one, quite elegant and unbelievably accurate.?? Then his Engineering persona made it work. The Internet will never forget Dave.? As the Internet evolves into the Internet of Things, and billions of devices continue to appear, they will all know what time it is, thanks to Dave. Dave is still here, all over The Internet. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vgcerf at gmail.com Fri Jan 19 12:53:33 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 15:53:33 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: <990823a4-31fb-4371-92d3-e66db0d9cee7@3kitty.org> References: <5BAB07E8-5B85-4DAE-9DED-4D941394A10C@paftech.se> <748532090.430128.1705677140859@mail.yahoo.com> <990823a4-31fb-4371-92d3-e66db0d9cee7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: great story - I have added to my growing anecdote file :-)) v On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 3:42?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > I am accumulating Dave Mills stories here: > > > https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XU6Fn5rFeJLO4mIBSa9e8V8BIDwafI0Lvlmi4gQwcmE/edit?usp=sharing > > For your Mills Compendium: > > -------------------------------------------------- > > In the infancy of The Internet during the early 1980s, Dave was my > friend and colleague. He was always curious, competent, innovative, > informative, and playful - for example, I learned from Dave that the > popular PING tool was actually an acronym: Packet InterNet Groper. > Internet meetings and mailing list debates were fun when Dave was involved. > > Dave was also my nemesis. As the explorer and tinkerer scientist, Dave > was always trying out new ideas for his potent army of Fuzzies - the > small computers he was seeding around the Internet. At the time, my > task from Arpa was to "make the core Internet run as a reliable > service". Tinkering and Reliability do not mix well. > > Dave was the Scientist of the Internet. At Internet meetings, Dave > would report on his latest Fuzzy Adventures. I can paraphrase his > reports as "I tickled the Internet with a Fuzzy stick and it turned > pink!" My reaction was always "Don't do that!!" > > Few people probably realize one of Dave's crucial contributions to > Internet technology - the concept of "Autonomous Systems", which > survives today, 40 years later. Dave didn't invent it, but he caused > it. The antics of his Fuzzies forced Eric Rosen and I to create > Autonomous Systems and EGP as a "firewall" mechanism to keep the > Internet "core" safe from the marauding Fuzzies and their occasional > collateral damage. > > Scientists yearn to measure things. Engineers just want to make it > work. In the 1980s, the scientist part of Dave needed to measure time > on the Internet and there was no way to do that. So he created one, > quite elegant and unbelievably accurate. Then his Engineering persona > made it work. > > The Internet will never forget Dave. As the Internet evolves into the > Internet of Things, and billions of devices continue to appear, they > will all know what time it is, thanks to Dave. > > Dave is still here, all over The Internet. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Fri Jan 19 14:59:11 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 14:59:11 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2024, at 5:35?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully > on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. > vint > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history I wish I?d gotten to know him better. I remember having a short conversation with him at the March 1987 Interop in Monterey about the SRI reconstruction protocol and some other things. But the discussions he had on the tcp-ip list with John Nagle, Van Jacobson, and some others regarding the Internet congestion problems occurring at the time really made an impression on me, personally and professionally. [1] ?gregbo [1] https://groups.google.com/g/mod.protocols.tcp-ip/c/KhQVHnVF3-Q/m/BB4mTSLkJFYJ From touch at strayalpha.com Fri Jan 19 15:53:57 2024 From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 15:53:57 -0800 Subject: [ih] A note about AI-generated posts to this list Message-ID: <74E61272-0D55-4EF3-B360-523213BE2336@strayalpha.com> This list is for discussion of Internet history. Posts not directly discussing Internet history are not appropriate for this list. Posts ?generated? messages using AI, chatGPT, or any other generative tool are not appropriate for this list.. Joe ? Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist www.strayalpha.com From karl at iwl.com Fri Jan 19 16:00:28 2024 From: karl at iwl.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 16:00:28 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Wasn't it one of Dave Mills' fuzzballs that became the target of all Internet traffic during one failure of routing? (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early routing failures and their effects.) ??? ??? --karl-- On 1/19/24 2:59 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > On Jan 18, 2024, at 5:35?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully >> on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. >> Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG >> taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. >> >> R.I.P. >> vint >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > I wish I?d gotten to know him better. I remember having a short conversation with him at the March 1987 Interop in Monterey about the SRI reconstruction protocol and some other things. But the discussions he had on the tcp-ip list with John Nagle, Van Jacobson, and some others regarding the Internet congestion problems occurring at the time really made an impression on me, personally and professionally. [1] > > ?gregbo > > [1] https://groups.google.com/g/mod.protocols.tcp-ip/c/KhQVHnVF3-Q/m/BB4mTSLkJFYJ From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Jan 19 16:07:35 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 16:07:35 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: Yes.? A tiny bug in Dave's code turned the Internet not pink, but flaming red.? That incident was a primary motivation for getting Autonomous Systems and EGP into the Internet to protect the "core". Jack On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Wasn't it one of Dave Mills' fuzzballs that became the target of all > Internet traffic during one failure of routing? > > (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early > routing failures and their effects.) > > ??? ??? --karl-- > > On 1/19/24 2:59 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: >> On Jan 18, 2024, at 5:35?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history >> wrote: >>> His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away >>> peacefully >>> on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early >>> Internet. >>> Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG >>> taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much >>> more. >>> >>> R.I.P. >>> vint >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> I wish I?d gotten to know him better.? I remember having a short >> conversation with him at the March 1987 Interop in Monterey about the >> SRI reconstruction protocol and some other things. But the >> discussions he had on the tcp-ip list with John Nagle, Van Jacobson, >> and some others regarding the Internet congestion problems occurring >> at the time really made an impression on me, personally and >> professionally.? [1] >> >> ?gregbo >> >> [1] >> https://groups.google.com/g/mod.protocols.tcp-ip/c/KhQVHnVF3-Q/m/BB4mTSLkJFYJ -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Jan 19 18:13:34 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 02:13:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Dave Mills has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1270529150.735089.1705716814715@mail.yahoo.com> Perhaps you meant to type the SRI Reconstitution Protocol??? (Or perhaps your phone did some sort of substitution...that happens to me more often than I like) barbara On Friday, January 19, 2024 at 02:59:33 PM PST, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: On Jan 18, 2024, at 5:35?PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > His daughter, Leigh, just sent me the news that Dave passed away peacefully > on January 17, 2024. He was such an iconic element of the early Internet. > Network Time Protocol, the Fuzzball routers of the early NSFNET, INARG > taskforce lead, COMSAT Labs and University of Delaware and so much more. > > R.I.P. > vint > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history I wish I?d gotten to know him better.? I remember having a short conversation with him at the March 1987 Interop in Monterey about the SRI reconstruction protocol and some other things.? But the discussions he had on the tcp-ip list with John Nagle, Van Jacobson, and some others regarding the Internet congestion problems occurring at the time really made an impression on me, personally and professionally.? [1] ?gregbo [1] https://groups.google.com/g/mod.protocols.tcp-ip/c/KhQVHnVF3-Q/m/BB4mTSLkJFYJ -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Jan 19 18:20:13 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 18:20:13 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early > routing failures and their effects.) OK, I'll jump in..... It was painfully easy for routing problems to occur. ? All one had to do was advertise to a neighboring router that you were the best route to everywhere. ? A simple bug could do the job.? Word would quickly spread, and all traffic would head your way, which sometimes made it impossible to connect to the offending router to try to fix the problem.? IIRC, something like that was what the Fuzzballs occasionally did. Another incident I recall was also a routing issue.? I don't remember exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back and forth.? Their pathway to each other through the Internet was somewhat long and often congested. ? So they decided to fix the problem by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 kb/s line.? They were surprised to observe that the added line only made things worse.? File transfers took even longer than before.? Of course their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to their project. Many of the incidents I remember were caused by the routing algorithms which were based on "hops" rather than on time (as had been the case in the Arpanet for a decade or more).?? This was a well-known problem which I think was part of the motivation for Dave Mills to create the NTP machinery.? In addition to routing, there were other Internet mechanisms that depended on time, but had necessarily been implemented "temporarily" until good time mechanisms were available.? For example, the TTL (Time To Live) and TOS (Type Of Service) values in IP were supposed to provide the routers with information to route IP datagrams over the most appropriate route, or quickly discard them if there was no expectation they could possibly get to their destination in time to still be useful. Dave worked hard to get Time as an inherent element of The Internet, and our expectation was that TCP and IP software throughout the Internet would be changed to make decisions based on Time rather than Hops.?? I'm not sure if that ever happened.?? The Internet now knows what time it is, but does networking software today ever look at its watch? Another incident I recall was not an Internet failure, but rather a situation where the Internet terrorized the Arpanet. The Arpanet was touted as a "packet network", but in reality it was a virtual circuit network, using packets internally.?? There were lots of mechanisms inside the Arpanet IMPs to make all user traffic travel to its destination intact and in the same order it was sent.?? The network was designed to match the typical usage patterns of the era - people connected to some computer somewhere on the Arpanet, did their work, and disconnected minutes or even hours later.?? Inside the Arpanet, the mechanisms to set up virtual circuits consumed resources and took time, but with sessions lasting minutes or hours the impact was tolerable. One day the Arpanet was having problems and response times were noticeably slower than usual.? Investigation revealed that the Arpanet was flailing, constantly setting up and tearing down virtual circuits, each of which was only lasting for a second or two.?? The Arpanet NOC (down the hall from my office) was in crisis. Eventually the problem was traced down to a new release of OS software (BSD, IIRC) that had just been posted on the Arpanet, and was being installed in the large numbers of workstations (Sun, IIRC) that had started appearing on the Internet.? The new OS release included a new tool to advise its users of the current status of the Internet.? It accomplished that by "pinging" every router every few minutes to see if that router was up and responsive. Pinging involved sending a single datagram, and receiving a single datgram in response.? But each such datagram required the Arpanet to set up a virtual circuit to carry that traffic.? With lots of OSes and lots of routers now scattered around the Arpanet, it was trying to do something it was never designed to do.?? As more workstations loaded the new OS release, the problem only got worse. Although this wasn't an "Internet failure", it was a system failure, caused by the Internet.? Administrative action suppressed the problem and as the Arpanet was decommissioned the problem disappeared.? Or perhaps moved somewhere else? Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? Jack Haverty -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vint at google.com Fri Jan 19 18:30:41 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 21:30:41 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: Jack, as I recall, for single packet messages, there was no set up because the data for the packet went with the first packet. If multiple packets were needed the first packet carried the first packet's worth of data but a multipacket set-up occurred. The packets of a multipacket message did not go on a virtual or fixed real path. However, a multipacket message did have to assure that reassembly space was available before the remaining packets of a multipacket message were sent. I seem to remember and exchange of the form, "get a block" "got a block" if you needed multipacket reassembly space. so I am not sure that single packet floods would have caused a setup delay/congestion unless the ping messages were longer than a single 1008 byte packet? v On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early > > routing failures and their effects.) > > OK, I'll jump in..... > > It was painfully easy for routing problems to occur. All one had to do > was advertise to a neighboring router that you were the best route to > everywhere. A simple bug could do the job. Word would quickly spread, > and all traffic would head your way, which sometimes made it impossible > to connect to the offending router to try to fix the problem. IIRC, > something like that was what the Fuzzballs occasionally did. > > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue. I don't remember > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back > and forth. Their pathway to each other through the Internet was > somewhat long and often congested. So they decided to fix the problem > by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 > kb/s line. They were surprised to observe that the added line only made > things worse. File transfers took even longer than before. Of course > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to > their project. > > Many of the incidents I remember were caused by the routing algorithms > which were based on "hops" rather than on time (as had been the case in > the Arpanet for a decade or more). This was a well-known problem which > I think was part of the motivation for Dave Mills to create the NTP > machinery. In addition to routing, there were other Internet mechanisms > that depended on time, but had necessarily been implemented > "temporarily" until good time mechanisms were available. For example, > the TTL (Time To Live) and TOS (Type Of Service) values in IP were > supposed to provide the routers with information to route IP datagrams > over the most appropriate route, or quickly discard them if there was no > expectation they could possibly get to their destination in time to > still be useful. > > Dave worked hard to get Time as an inherent element of The Internet, and > our expectation was that TCP and IP software throughout the Internet > would be changed to make decisions based on Time rather than Hops. I'm > not sure if that ever happened. The Internet now knows what time it > is, but does networking software today ever look at its watch? > > Another incident I recall was not an Internet failure, but rather a > situation where the Internet terrorized the Arpanet. > > The Arpanet was touted as a "packet network", but in reality it was a > virtual circuit network, using packets internally. There were lots of > mechanisms inside the Arpanet IMPs to make all user traffic travel to > its destination intact and in the same order it was sent. The network > was designed to match the typical usage patterns of the era - people > connected to some computer somewhere on the Arpanet, did their work, and > disconnected minutes or even hours later. Inside the Arpanet, the > mechanisms to set up virtual circuits consumed resources and took time, > but with sessions lasting minutes or hours the impact was tolerable. > > One day the Arpanet was having problems and response times were > noticeably slower than usual. Investigation revealed that the Arpanet > was flailing, constantly setting up and tearing down virtual circuits, > each of which was only lasting for a second or two. The Arpanet NOC > (down the hall from my office) was in crisis. > > Eventually the problem was traced down to a new release of OS software > (BSD, IIRC) that had just been posted on the Arpanet, and was being > installed in the large numbers of workstations (Sun, IIRC) that had > started appearing on the Internet. The new OS release included a new > tool to advise its users of the current status of the Internet. It > accomplished that by "pinging" every router every few minutes to see if > that router was up and responsive. > > Pinging involved sending a single datagram, and receiving a single > datgram in response. But each such datagram required the Arpanet to set > up a virtual circuit to carry that traffic. With lots of OSes and lots > of routers now scattered around the Arpanet, it was trying to do > something it was never designed to do. As more workstations loaded the > new OS release, the problem only got worse. > > Although this wasn't an "Internet failure", it was a system failure, > caused by the Internet. Administrative action suppressed the problem > and as the Arpanet was decommissioned the problem disappeared. Or > perhaps moved somewhere else? > > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? > > Jack Haverty > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Fri Jan 19 18:53:19 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Fri, 19 Jan 2024 18:53:19 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: <5c6ea5d7-72e1-4f2b-8e3c-8891e316a215@3kitty.org> Hi Vint, By the time that incident occurred, the Arpanet was more than a decade old, and the software had undergone lots of changes as the net got bigger and the internal algorithms were changed with experience.?? I'm not sure it still behaved then exactly as you described. I don't remember (may never have heard) what the exact IMP (or the OS "Internet Status" app) behavior was except a comment from someone in the NOC that the net was setting up and tearing down way more connections than usual.? Perhaps the app was doing a TCP "echo" as a probe?? Whatever it did, the behavior was traced to the workstations and then to the new OS release. Within BBN, I was "the Internet guy", and the Internet was just some Arpa Experiment at that point.?? So I got the flak when it became clear that "the Internet" was responsible for the Arpanet crisis. That incident probably didn't help when the next request came in from someone who wanted to use Arpanet "uncontrolled packets" for their Internet experiments! Fun times... Jack On 1/19/24 18:30, Vint Cerf wrote: > Jack, > as I recall, for single packet messages, there was no set up because > the data for the packet went with the first packet. > If multiple packets were needed the first packet carried the first > packet's worth of data but a multipacket set-up occurred. > The packets of a multipacket message did not go on a virtual or fixed > real path.? However, a multipacket message did have to assure that > reassembly space was available before the remaining packets of a > multipacket?message were sent. I seem to remember and exchange of the > form, "get a block" "got a block" if you needed multipacket reassembly > space. > > so I am not sure that single packet floods would have caused a setup > delay/congestion unless the ping messages were longer than a single > 1008 byte packet? > v > > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > > On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early > > routing failures and their effects.) > > OK, I'll jump in..... > > It was painfully easy for routing problems to occur. ? All one had > to do > was advertise to a neighboring router that you were the best route to > everywhere. ? A simple bug could do the job.? Word would quickly > spread, > and all traffic would head your way, which sometimes made it > impossible > to connect to the offending router to try to fix the problem. IIRC, > something like that was what the Fuzzballs occasionally did. > > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue.? I don't remember > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data > back > and forth.? Their pathway to each other through the Internet was > somewhat long and often congested. ? So they decided to fix the > problem > by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for > a 9.6 > kb/s line.? They were surprised to observe that the added line > only made > things worse.? File transfers took even longer than before. Of course > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made > their > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic > unrelated to > their project. > > Many of the incidents I remember were caused by the routing > algorithms > which were based on "hops" rather than on time (as had been the > case in > the Arpanet for a decade or more).?? This was a well-known problem > which > I think was part of the motivation for Dave Mills to create the NTP > machinery.? In addition to routing, there were other Internet > mechanisms > that depended on time, but had necessarily been implemented > "temporarily" until good time mechanisms were available.? For > example, > the TTL (Time To Live) and TOS (Type Of Service) values in IP were > supposed to provide the routers with information to route IP > datagrams > over the most appropriate route, or quickly discard them if there > was no > expectation they could possibly get to their destination in time to > still be useful. > > Dave worked hard to get Time as an inherent element of The > Internet, and > our expectation was that TCP and IP software throughout the Internet > would be changed to make decisions based on Time rather than > Hops.?? I'm > not sure if that ever happened.?? The Internet now knows what time it > is, but does networking software today ever look at its watch? > > Another incident I recall was not an Internet failure, but rather a > situation where the Internet terrorized the Arpanet. > > The Arpanet was touted as a "packet network", but in reality it was a > virtual circuit network, using packets internally.?? There were > lots of > mechanisms inside the Arpanet IMPs to make all user traffic travel to > its destination intact and in the same order it was sent. The network > was designed to match the typical usage patterns of the era - people > connected to some computer somewhere on the Arpanet, did their > work, and > disconnected minutes or even hours later.?? Inside the Arpanet, the > mechanisms to set up virtual circuits consumed resources and took > time, > but with sessions lasting minutes or hours the impact was tolerable. > > One day the Arpanet was having problems and response times were > noticeably slower than usual.? Investigation revealed that the > Arpanet > was flailing, constantly setting up and tearing down virtual > circuits, > each of which was only lasting for a second or two.?? The Arpanet NOC > (down the hall from my office) was in crisis. > > Eventually the problem was traced down to a new release of OS > software > (BSD, IIRC) that had just been posted on the Arpanet, and was being > installed in the large numbers of workstations (Sun, IIRC) that had > started appearing on the Internet.? The new OS release included a new > tool to advise its users of the current status of the Internet.? It > accomplished that by "pinging" every router every few minutes to > see if > that router was up and responsive. > > Pinging involved sending a single datagram, and receiving a single > datgram in response.? But each such datagram required the Arpanet > to set > up a virtual circuit to carry that traffic.? With lots of OSes and > lots > of routers now scattered around the Arpanet, it was trying to do > something it was never designed to do.?? As more workstations > loaded the > new OS release, the problem only got worse. > > Although this wasn't an "Internet failure", it was a system failure, > caused by the Internet.? Administrative action suppressed the problem > and as the Arpanet was decommissioned the problem disappeared.? Or > perhaps moved somewhere else? > > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? > > Jack Haverty > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > +1 (571) 213 1346 > > > until further notice > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 20 06:59:57 2024 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:59:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet Message-ID: <20240120145957.B510418C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Vint Cerf > so I am not sure that single packet floods would have caused a setup > delay/congestion unless the ping messages were longer than a single > 1008 byte packet? I had the same reaction you did. Minor error in your message (which I don't wish to leave in the archive, un-corrected, lest it confuse some later historian reading this): I think you meant 'bits', not "byte[s]". ARPANET 'packets' were "approximately 1000 bits" (1970 Spring AFIPS paper), "1103 bits, including leader" (1822, January 1976 revision). 'Messages' were at most 8160 bits, 1020 bytes (1822, January 1976 revision). (For explain some ARPANET-specific terminology to those who aren't ARPANET experts, 'packets' were IMP->IMP packets [in the modern sense of that term], 'messages' were IMP->Host packets.) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jan 20 07:58:47 2024 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 10:58:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 Message-ID: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > It's Google. The king of discontinuing things when it suits > them. Complaining that a company acts like a company is like complaining that lead doesn't float. (Yes, I know there are exceptions, on both sides - the Myth-Busters even once made a real lead balloon; but they _are_ exceptions.) While I'm posting, does anyone know if the old 'internet working group' email list archives are available anywhere? I don't mean the list that was digested in the "TCP/IP Digest"s - that was a completely separate list. And I don't mean the original international network working group; that, AFAIK, never had a email list. I'm talking about the email list that people working on the DARPA TCP/IP project used; I think it eventually morphed into the IETF list. Anyone remember what the address for it was? (I looked in some Internet Meeting Notes, etc, in the IEN's, but did not see it referred to.) And speaking of the IETF list, I wonder how far back the online archives go. The user interface to the archives, at: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/ doesn't seem to have any way to look at the oldest messages in that archive. Needless to say, the IETF list messages from the pre-WG era would be an incredible resource for historians, if we can locate them; ditto for the internet working group email messages. We might have to trudge through old backup tape collections in archives to find them, though. Does anyone know which institutions from that era still have backup tapes? MIT does, and I might be able to retrieve _some_ of my old email from there, which may still retain _some_ messages to those lists. (When disks were small, a lot of email was ditched as soon as it was read.) SAIL has a very good archive, but I'm not sure if anyone at SAIL was involved in the early Internet work. Noel From dhc at dcrocker.net Sat Jan 20 08:04:10 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 08:04:10 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> On 1/20/2024 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > And speaking of the IETF list, I wonder how far back the online archives go. > The user interface to the archives, at: > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/ > > doesn't seem to have any way to look at the oldest messages in that archive. 4 Jan 1980. IETF mailing lists are accessible via IMAP, which then makes it easy to see the oldest message in the list. "An *IMAP* server with all messages from all lists is available for IMAP access at?imap.ietf.org:993. For authenticated access, use your IETF Datatracker login and password. For anonymous access, use username="anonymous", and provide your email address as a password." Mailing lists <#> ? https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From agmalis at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 08:21:38 2024 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:21:38 -0500 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Dave, 1980 is pretty good, seeing as the IETF formed in 1986. Cheers, Andy On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 11:04?AM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 1/20/2024 7:58 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > And speaking of the IETF list, I wonder how far back the online archives > go. > > The user interface to the archives, at: > > > > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/browse/ietf/ > > > > doesn't seem to have any way to look at the oldest messages in that > archive. > > > 4 Jan 1980. > > IETF mailing lists are accessible via IMAP, which then makes it easy to > see the oldest message in the list. > > "An *IMAP* server with all messages from all lists is available for > IMAP access at imap.ietf.org:993. > For authenticated access, use your IETF Datatracker > login and password. For anonymous > access, use username="anonymous", and provide your email address as > a password." > > Mailing lists <#> > > ? https://www.ietf.org/how/lists/ > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 08:33:03 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:33:03 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <20240120145957.B510418C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240120145957.B510418C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: yes, thanks Noel - the messages were 1000+ bytes, the packets 1000+ bits. v On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 10:00?AM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > From: Vint Cerf > > > so I am not sure that single packet floods would have caused a setup > > delay/congestion unless the ping messages were longer than a single > > 1008 byte packet? > > I had the same reaction you did. > > Minor error in your message (which I don't wish to leave in the archive, > un-corrected, lest it confuse some later historian reading this): I think > you > meant 'bits', not "byte[s]". ARPANET 'packets' were "approximately 1000 > bits" > (1970 Spring AFIPS paper), "1103 bits, including leader" (1822, January > 1976 > revision). 'Messages' were at most 8160 bits, 1020 bytes (1822, January > 1976 > revision). > > (For explain some ARPANET-specific terminology to those who aren't ARPANET > experts, 'packets' were IMP->IMP packets [in the modern sense of that > term], > 'messages' were IMP->Host packets.) > > Noel > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From dhc at dcrocker.net Sat Jan 20 08:44:03 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 08:44:03 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> On 1/20/2024 8:21 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > 1980 is pretty good, seeing as the IETF formed in 1986. prescient? However the second message has the date 8 April 1992, so some form of typo seems more likely, if less interesting. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Jan 20 09:40:39 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 09:40:39 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <58D57AE6-0421-4210-8F1A-97DEED932C6A@icloud.com> On Jan 20, 2024, at 8:44?AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 1/20/2024 8:21 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> 1980 is pretty good, seeing as the IETF formed in 1986. > > prescient? > > However the second message has the date 8 April 1992, so some form of typo seems more likely, if less interesting. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history Using IMAP, the oldest message I was able to access (from the ietf list) is <9204081711.aa29564 at NRI.Reston.VA.US> from Megan Davies. [1] Using the IETF mail archive, and clicking on the Date tab (which reverses the order of messages shown to oldest to newest), the first message displayed is <9204081731.AA10244 at TIS.COM> from Jim Galvin. [2] There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains ietf list messages from 1990. [3] Offhand, I don?t know of any earlier complete ietf list. I hope such a list can be retrieved, because there are some things I would like to reread, such as the discussions that took place during the mid-1980s about Internet congestion that eventually led to Van Jacobson?s TCP modifications, RFCs, etc. ?gregbo [1] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/vKN0rFgjWkuesWODO-qn5qJc66Q/ [2] https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/s4c8RdIEC-oKecqUmcPKLQCFVVQ/# [3] https://www.ietf.org/ietf-ftp/ietf-mail-archive/ietf/1990-all From scott.brim at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 10:50:09 2024 From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 13:50:09 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue. I don't remember > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back > and forth. Their pathway to each other through the Internet was > somewhat long and often congested. So they decided to fix the problem > by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 > kb/s line. They were surprised to observe that the added line only made > things worse. File transfers took even longer than before. Of course > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to > their project. > That might have been us, and if so it's another tie-in for Dave Mills. In early January 1987 we lit up the first link in what was to be NYNET (New York), between Cornell Theory Center and Columbia IT. We figured Cornell would be a gateway for all of NYNET to the budding NSFNet. However, at that time both Cornell and Columbia CS were connected to ARPAnet, and Columbia CS was announcing a static route to HP (net 16) to its campus, for some project in a department. At Cornell we believed everything we received, so we forwarded Columbia's route to the rest of our campus, thus to our CS Arpanet connection, and onward. There was no route filtering anywhere. We discovered the HP routing loop pretty quickly and shut down dynamic routing. Acouple weeks later we were meeting with Dave, probably at UDel, and he said "we have to have bidirectional route filtering", and thus the gated project was born. Scott From jeanjour at comcast.net Sat Jan 20 11:06:21 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:06:21 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news Message-ID: I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking in Europe". Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to Andrew L. Russell in 2012: https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in French): https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine Take care, John Day From agmalis at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 11:16:10 2024 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:16:10 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I knew him through common participation in a number of European networking conferences. Cheers, Andy On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:07?PM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the > University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the > original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) > > It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. > Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. > > Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of > Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT > (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career > in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. > In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he > launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of > Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and > Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first > conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV > conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 > European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he > received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design > and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking > in Europe". > > Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his > involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP > he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative > until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. > > He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark > on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was > my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe > him a lot, and I will miss him. > > More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to > Andrew L. Russell in 2012: > > https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y > > If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in > French): > > https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine > > Take care, > John Day > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From craig at tereschau.net Sat Jan 20 11:17:03 2024 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:17:03 -0700 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <58D57AE6-0421-4210-8F1A-97DEED932C6A@icloud.com> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> <58D57AE6-0421-4210-8F1A-97DEED932C6A@icloud.com> Message-ID: > > > > > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains > ietf list messages from 1990. [3] Offhand, I don?t know of any earlier > complete ietf list. I hope such a list can be retrieved, because there are > some things I would like to reread, such as the discussions that took place > during the mid-1980s about Internet congestion that eventually led to Van > Jacobson?s TCP modifications, RFCs, etc. > > > > Most of Van's long thoughful notes went to the End2End mailing list (though some went to the TCP-IP mailing list). I'm not close to the right computer today, but I believe I archived the key ones. As I recall, I created a "best of Van" archive for Rich Stevens when he was writing "TCP-IP Illustrated '' because in some of those notes Van sought to give readers an intuition about the dynamics he was seeing and Rich was trying to do something similar in his book. And some of Van's preliminary (aka in progress) reports on TCP improvements can be found in the meeting reports from early IETF meetings (on the IETF site). Thanks! Craig From ocl at gih.com Sat Jan 20 11:21:39 2024 From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=C3=A9pin-Leblond?=) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 19:21:39 +0000 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 20/01/2024 16:44, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 1/20/2024 8:21 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> 1980 is pretty good, seeing as the IETF formed in 1986. > > prescient? > > However the second message has the date 8 April 1992, so some form of > typo seems more likely, if less interesting. That got me to dig deep into my own memory and I am actually quite surprised I remembered this, but 4 Jan 1980 rang a bell... and it is the default date that the BIOS in early PCs recognised. Back in the day on early PC boards the battery was a couple of AA batteries in a holder attached to some part of the board using a velcro and the PC lost its date quite frequently. Just like Unix boxes recognise 1 Jan 1970 as their default time. So I think this first entry could be a default date. Kindest regards, Olivier -- Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Jan 20 11:28:11 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 11:28:11 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: Hi Scott, You might be right.?? I still have a vague recollection that the two sites were somewhere in the SouthEast US, perhaps Carolinas or Georgia.? But I'm sure that the incident I remember was not unique. One thing we learned about routing was that slight changes could have dramatic and unexpected effects on how the overall system behaved. At the time of your story, EGP was probably in effect and the "core" gateways insulated from "fake news" from the world outside.? So the "service" part of the Internet was protected from, yet still interoperable with, the "research" parts of the Internet, with all pieces of The Internet insulated into a handful of separate Autonomous Systems. That was the intent and goal of the concept of Autonomous Systems and the EGP protocol - to keep the core service reliable while enabling lots of experimentation (especially in the hyperactive Fuzzy Universe), to resolve the outstanding issues and fold the resulting new algorithms and protocols into the next generation of TCP/UDP/IP/ICMP/GGP/etc. Of course, that's not what happened.? ASes became a basis for growth instead, and there are now thousands of them.? The Internet followed its own path. Jack Haverty On 1/20/24 10:50, Scott Brim wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue.? I don't remember > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data > back > and forth.? Their pathway to each other through the Internet was > somewhat long and often congested. ? So they decided to fix the > problem > by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for > a 9.6 > kb/s line.? They were surprised to observe that the added line > only made > things worse.? File transfers took even longer than before. Of course > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made > their > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic > unrelated to > their project. > > > That might have been us, and if so it's another tie-in for Dave Mills. > In early January 1987 we lit up the first link in what was to be NYNET > (New York), between Cornell Theory Center and Columbia IT. We figured > Cornell would be a gateway for all of NYNET to the budding NSFNet. > However, at that time both Cornell and Columbia CS were connected to > ARPAnet, and Columbia CS was announcing a static route to HP (net 16) > to its campus, for some project in a department. At Cornell we > believed everything we received, so we forwarded Columbia's route to > the rest of our campus, thus to our CS Arpanet connection, and onward. > There was no route filtering anywhere. We discovered the HP routing > loop pretty quickly and shut down dynamic routing. Acouple weeks later > we were meeting with Dave, probably at UDel, and he said "we have to > have bidirectional route filtering", and thus the gated project was born. > > Scott -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From craig at tereschau.net Sat Jan 20 11:31:38 2024 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 12:31:38 -0700 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember Andre fondly. For some reason, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, he and I were often in technical disagreement on various networking topics (what topics and why, I no longer remember). But at a personal level, we got along wonderfully well -- which I attribute to Andre's wonderfully welcoming and gracious personality. For an example of the welcoming -- in, I think, 1996 as a last hurrah as professor, Andre hosted an IFIP conference in Liege and encouraged everyone he could to submit papers or be on the program committee (or both). It was an amazing technical party -- filled with fun papers and amazing food and wine. Conference lunches were 4 courses with wine. One dinner was in a 16th? century house. Another was in the Liege medieval town hall. Craig On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 12:06?PM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the > University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the > original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) > > It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. > Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. > > Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of > Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT > (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career > in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. > In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he > launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of > Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and > Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first > conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV > conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 > European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he > received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design > and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking > in Europe". > > Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his > involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP > he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative > until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. > > He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark > on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was > my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe > him a lot, and I will miss him. > > More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to > Andrew L. Russell in 2012: > > https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y > > If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in > French): > > https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine > > Take care, > John Day > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From jeanjour at comcast.net Sat Jan 20 11:54:46 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:54:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <216E88CE-DE74-4A07-9FE7-0652B2047865@comcast.net> Yea, I have known Andre since the days of the Network Traveling Circus. Visited him in Liege in 1977 when we were working on INWG projects. They were always great times and great discussions! or were they argument! ;-) Who cares!? Great fun. Take care, John > On Jan 20, 2024, at 14:31, Craig Partridge wrote: > > I remember Andre fondly. For some reason, in the late 1980s and early 1990s, he and I were often in technical disagreement on various networking topics (what topics and why, I no longer remember). But at a personal level, we got along wonderfully well -- which I attribute to Andre's wonderfully welcoming and gracious personality. > > For an example of the welcoming -- in, I think, 1996 as a last hurrah as professor, Andre hosted an IFIP conference in Liege and encouraged everyone he could to submit papers or be on the program committee (or both). It was an amazing technical party -- filled with fun papers and amazing food and wine. Conference lunches were 4 courses with wine. One dinner was in a 16th? century house. Another was in the Liege medieval town hall. > > Craig > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 12:06?PM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: >> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) >> >> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. >> >> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking in Europe". >> >> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. >> >> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. >> >> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to Andrew L. Russell in 2012: >> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y >> >> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in French): >> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine >> >> Take care, >> John Day >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 13:08:34 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 16:08:34 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I knew Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly significant networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre was especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I used in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and Louis Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a good French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant recommendations and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. Definitely one of the good guys. v On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day wrote: > I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the > University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the > original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) > > It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. > Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. > > Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of > Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT > (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career > in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. > In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he > launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of > Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and > Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first > conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV > conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 > European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he > received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design > and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking > in Europe". > > Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his > involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP > he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative > until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. > > He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark > on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was > my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe > him a lot, and I will miss him. > > More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to > Andrew L. Russell in 2012: > > https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y > > If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in > French): > > https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine > > Take care, > John Day > > From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 13:09:28 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 16:09:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: that should have read:....networking workshop v On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:08?PM vinton cerf wrote: > Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I knew > Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly significant > networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre was > especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I used > in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and Louis > Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a good > French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant recommendations > and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. Definitely one of > the good guys. > > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day wrote: > >> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the >> University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the >> original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) >> >> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. >> Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. >> >> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of >> Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT >> (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career >> in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. >> In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he >> launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of >> Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and >> Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first >> conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV >> conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 >> European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he >> received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design >> and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking >> in Europe". >> >> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his >> involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP >> he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative >> until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. >> >> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his >> mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as >> he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my >> career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. >> >> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to >> Andrew L. Russell in 2012: >> >> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y >> >> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in >> French): >> >> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine >> >> Take care, >> John Day >> >> From jeanjour at comcast.net Sat Jan 20 13:18:21 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 16:18:21 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <517AB172-6AA9-4243-A542-B2BA06E3300A@comcast.net> Where Louis and Andre were in their element finding restaurants was the 4th Data Comm Symposium in Quebec City. Every night was a new delight! I remember walking back to the hotel one night, waiting for a traffic light, some local Quebecois were making derogatory comments about us in French, and Louis or Andre shocked them by shutting them down in French. ;-) And then there was the taxi ride back for the Birds of a Feather session, . . . but that is another story. > On Jan 20, 2024, at 16:08, vinton cerf wrote: > > Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I knew Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly significant networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre was especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I used in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and Louis Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a good French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant recommendations and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. Definitely one of the good guys. > > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day > wrote: >> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) >> >> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. >> >> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking in Europe". >> >> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. >> >> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. >> >> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to Andrew L. Russell in 2012: >> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y >> >> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in French): >> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine >> >> Take care, >> John Day >> From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Jan 20 14:09:03 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 14:09:03 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> <58D57AE6-0421-4210-8F1A-97DEED932C6A@icloud.com> Message-ID: <9A29088A-1B75-4907-BBCA-7BEEE3FB50EF@icloud.com> On Jan 20, 2024, at 11:17?AM, Craig Partridge wrote: > >> >> >> >> There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains ietf list messages from 1990. [3] Offhand, I don?t know of any earlier complete ietf list. I hope such a list can be retrieved, because there are some things I would like to reread, such as the discussions that took place during the mid-1980s about Internet congestion that eventually led to Van Jacobson?s TCP modifications, RFCs, etc. >> >> >> > > > Most of Van's long thoughful notes went to the End2End mailing list (though some went to the TCP-IP mailing list). I'm not close to the right computer today, but I believe I archived the key ones. As I recall, I created a "best of Van" archive for Rich Stevens when he was writing "TCP-IP Illustrated '' because in some of those notes Van sought to give readers an intuition about the dynamics he was seeing and Rich was trying to do something similar in his book. And some of Van's preliminary (aka in progress) reports on TCP improvements can be found in the meeting reports from early IETF meetings (on the IETF site). > > Thanks! > > Craig I found a post from you in Google Groups sent to the tcp-ip list introduced with the following: [1] "Here's my collection of some of Van's notable postings. If folks have others they think are particularly notable, could they forward copies to me?? There was another ?best of Van? collection that I think was put together by Bob Braden taken from either the ietf or end2end lists from around 1987-1988. I thought I bookmarked it. If I find it, I?ll post a link to it. ?gregbo [1] https://groups.google.com/g/comp.protocols.tcp-ip/c/yRhIox36ot0 From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 14:15:56 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:15:56 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: <517AB172-6AA9-4243-A542-B2BA06E3300A@comcast.net> References: <517AB172-6AA9-4243-A542-B2BA06E3300A@comcast.net> Message-ID: I gotta hear about the taxi ride! v On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:18?PM John Day wrote: > Where Louis and Andre were in their element finding restaurants was the > 4th Data Comm Symposium in Quebec City. Every night was a new delight! I > remember walking back to the hotel one night, waiting for a traffic light, > some local Quebecois were making derogatory comments about us in French, > and Louis or Andre shocked them by shutting them down in French. ;-) > > And then there was the taxi ride back for the Birds of a Feather session, > . . . but that is another story. > > On Jan 20, 2024, at 16:08, vinton cerf wrote: > > Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I knew > Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly significant > networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre was > especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I used > in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and Louis > Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a good > French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant recommendations > and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. Definitely one of > the good guys. > > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day wrote: > >> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the >> University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the >> original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) >> >> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. >> Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. >> >> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of >> Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT >> (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career >> in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. >> In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he >> launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of >> Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and >> Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first >> conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV >> conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 >> European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he >> received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design >> and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking >> in Europe". >> >> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his >> involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP >> he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative >> until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. >> >> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his >> mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as >> he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my >> career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. >> >> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to >> Andrew L. Russell in 2012: >> >> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y >> >> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in >> French): >> >> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine >> >> Take care, >> John Day >> >> > From jeanjour at comcast.net Sat Jan 20 14:27:58 2024 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:27:58 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: <517AB172-6AA9-4243-A542-B2BA06E3300A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <95E2DB62-2CC6-4971-9923-CADA2217C12D@comcast.net> ;-) lol Well, if you remember the night of the Birds of Feather session was relatively early. Louis had arranged a great restaurant in the Old City. Dinner had been arranged a little earlier than civilized so we could be back for evening sessions. But Louis had us well-organized: With precisely the right number of taxis outside the hotel at the appointed hour, off we went! We would troop into the restaurant, settle into 3 or 4 big tables, somehow order dinner around the on-going discussion of what we had heard that day. Conversations were just winding down from a wonderful dessert, when Louis would suddenly appear, announcing it was time to go. (Timing is everything!) Taxis were waiting outside. We piled in again, to head back for the evening ?birds of a feather? sessions! This is especially vivid for me, because it didn?t end so simply. Somehow Grossman and I happened to pile Louis?s cab with either the craziest or most competent driver in Quebec. Louis must have told them time was of the essence. Our cabbie was whipping through the narrow streets of the Old City shifting frantically at every turn, then speeding out the Grande All?e, through the old wall of the city at a high speed. Ahead of us was a red light, the driver momentarily let up on the gas, clearly to take his place in the line of cars waiting for the light. NO!! it must have been to assess the situation, because he tromped on the gas again as he pulled into the left lane (wha!) and headed right for the on-coming traffic! (OMG! We are about to die!) At the last possible second, the light turned green and at precisely that instant, we turned left! With us howling with laughter. A couple more right turns and we were at the front door of the hotel! ;-) Take care, John > On Jan 20, 2024, at 17:15, vinton cerf wrote: > > I gotta hear about the taxi ride! > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:18?PM John Day > wrote: >> Where Louis and Andre were in their element finding restaurants was the 4th Data Comm Symposium in Quebec City. Every night was a new delight! I remember walking back to the hotel one night, waiting for a traffic light, some local Quebecois were making derogatory comments about us in French, and Louis or Andre shocked them by shutting them down in French. ;-) >> >> And then there was the taxi ride back for the Birds of a Feather session, . . . but that is another story. >> >>> On Jan 20, 2024, at 16:08, vinton cerf > wrote: >>> >>> Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I knew Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly significant networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre was especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I used in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and Louis Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a good French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant recommendations and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. Definitely one of the good guys. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day > wrote: >>>> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) >>>> >>>> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. >>>> >>>> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking in Europe". >>>> >>>> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. >>>> >>>> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. >>>> >>>> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to Andrew L. Russell in 2012: >>>> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y >>>> >>>> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in French): >>>> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine >>>> >>>> Take care, >>>> John Day >>>> >> From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 14:35:39 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:35:39 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: <95E2DB62-2CC6-4971-9923-CADA2217C12D@comcast.net> References: <517AB172-6AA9-4243-A542-B2BA06E3300A@comcast.net> <95E2DB62-2CC6-4971-9923-CADA2217C12D@comcast.net> Message-ID: wow, on a full stomach.... v On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 5:28?PM John Day wrote: > ;-) lol > > Well, if you remember the night of the Birds of Feather session was > relatively early. Louis had arranged a great restaurant in the Old City. > > Dinner had been arranged a little earlier than civilized so we could be > back for evening sessions. But Louis had us well-organized: With > precisely the right number of taxis outside the hotel at the appointed > hour, off we went! We would troop into the restaurant, settle into 3 or 4 > big tables, somehow order dinner around the on-going discussion of what we > had heard that day. Conversations were just winding down from a wonderful > dessert, when Louis would suddenly appear, announcing it was time to go. > (Timing is everything!) Taxis were waiting outside. We piled in again, to > head back for the evening ?birds of a feather? sessions! > > > > This is especially vivid for me, because it didn?t end so simply. Somehow > Grossman and I happened to pile Louis?s cab with either the craziest or > most competent driver in Quebec. Louis must have told them time was of the > essence. Our cabbie was whipping through the narrow streets of the Old City > shifting frantically at every turn, then speeding out the Grande All?e, > through the old wall of the city at a high speed. Ahead of us was a red > light, the driver momentarily let up on the gas, clearly to take his place > in the line of cars waiting for the light. *NO*!! it must have been to > assess the situation, because he tromped on the gas again as he pulled into > the left lane *(wha!) *and headed right for the on-coming traffic! *(OMG! > We are about to die!)* At the last possible second, the light turned > green and at precisely that instant, we turned left! With us howling with > laughter. A couple more right turns and we were at the front door of the > hotel! ;-) > > > Take care, > > John > > On Jan 20, 2024, at 17:15, vinton cerf wrote: > > I gotta hear about the taxi ride! > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:18?PM John Day wrote: > >> Where Louis and Andre were in their element finding restaurants was the >> 4th Data Comm Symposium in Quebec City. Every night was a new delight! I >> remember walking back to the hotel one night, waiting for a traffic light, >> some local Quebecois were making derogatory comments about us in French, >> and Louis or Andre shocked them by shutting them down in French. ;-) >> >> And then there was the taxi ride back for the Birds of a Feather session, >> . . . but that is another story. >> >> On Jan 20, 2024, at 16:08, vinton cerf wrote: >> >> Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I >> knew Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly >> significant networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre >> was especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I >> used in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and >> Louis Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a >> good French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant >> recommendations and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. >> Definitely one of the good guys. >> >> v >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day wrote: >> >>> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the >>> University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the >>> original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) >>> >>> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. >>> Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. >>> >>> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of >>> Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT >>> (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career >>> in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. >>> In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he >>> launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of >>> Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and >>> Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first >>> conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV >>> conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 >>> European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he >>> received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design >>> and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking >>> in Europe". >>> >>> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his >>> involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP >>> he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative >>> until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. >>> >>> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his >>> mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as >>> he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my >>> career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. >>> >>> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to >>> Andrew L. Russell in 2012: >>> >>> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y >>> >>> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in >>> French): >>> >>> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine >>> >>> Take care, >>> John Day >>> >>> >> > From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 14:42:57 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 17:42:57 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: was NYNET distinct from NYSERNET? v On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 1:50?PM Scott Brim via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue. I don't remember > > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were > > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back > > and forth. Their pathway to each other through the Internet was > > somewhat long and often congested. So they decided to fix the problem > > by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 > > kb/s line. They were surprised to observe that the added line only made > > things worse. File transfers took even longer than before. Of course > > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their > > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to > > their project. > > > > That might have been us, and if so it's another tie-in for Dave Mills. In > early January 1987 we lit up the first link in what was to be NYNET (New > York), between Cornell Theory Center and Columbia IT. We figured Cornell > would be a gateway for all of NYNET to the budding NSFNet. However, at that > time both Cornell and Columbia CS were connected to ARPAnet, and Columbia > CS was announcing a static route to HP (net 16) to its campus, for some > project in a department. At Cornell we believed everything we received, so > we forwarded Columbia's route to the rest of our campus, thus to our CS > Arpanet connection, and onward. There was no route filtering anywhere. We > discovered the HP routing loop pretty quickly and shut down dynamic > routing. Acouple weeks later we were meeting with Dave, probably at UDel, > and he said "we have to have bidirectional route filtering", and thus the > gated project was born. > > Scott > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From crossd at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 15:26:37 2024 From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 18:26:37 -0500 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: <517AB172-6AA9-4243-A542-B2BA06E3300A@comcast.net> <95E2DB62-2CC6-4971-9923-CADA2217C12D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 5:36?PM vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > wow, on a full stomach.... Were they though, after all of that? :-) - Dan C. > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 5:28?PM John Day wrote: > > > ;-) lol > > > > Well, if you remember the night of the Birds of Feather session was > > relatively early. Louis had arranged a great restaurant in the Old City. > > > > Dinner had been arranged a little earlier than civilized so we could be > > back for evening sessions. But Louis had us well-organized: With > > precisely the right number of taxis outside the hotel at the appointed > > hour, off we went! We would troop into the restaurant, settle into 3 or 4 > > big tables, somehow order dinner around the on-going discussion of what we > > had heard that day. Conversations were just winding down from a wonderful > > dessert, when Louis would suddenly appear, announcing it was time to go. > > (Timing is everything!) Taxis were waiting outside. We piled in again, to > > head back for the evening ?birds of a feather? sessions! > > > > > > > > This is especially vivid for me, because it didn?t end so simply. Somehow > > Grossman and I happened to pile Louis?s cab with either the craziest or > > most competent driver in Quebec. Louis must have told them time was of the > > essence. Our cabbie was whipping through the narrow streets of the Old City > > shifting frantically at every turn, then speeding out the Grande All?e, > > through the old wall of the city at a high speed. Ahead of us was a red > > light, the driver momentarily let up on the gas, clearly to take his place > > in the line of cars waiting for the light. *NO*!! it must have been to > > assess the situation, because he tromped on the gas again as he pulled into > > the left lane *(wha!) *and headed right for the on-coming traffic! *(OMG! > > We are about to die!)* At the last possible second, the light turned > > green and at precisely that instant, we turned left! With us howling with > > laughter. A couple more right turns and we were at the front door of the > > hotel! ;-) > > > > > > Take care, > > > > John > > > > On Jan 20, 2024, at 17:15, vinton cerf wrote: > > > > I gotta hear about the taxi ride! > > v > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 4:18?PM John Day wrote: > > > >> Where Louis and Andre were in their element finding restaurants was the > >> 4th Data Comm Symposium in Quebec City. Every night was a new delight! I > >> remember walking back to the hotel one night, waiting for a traffic light, > >> some local Quebecois were making derogatory comments about us in French, > >> and Louis or Andre shocked them by shutting them down in French. ;-) > >> > >> And then there was the taxi ride back for the Birds of a Feather session, > >> . . . but that is another story. > >> > >> On Jan 20, 2024, at 16:08, vinton cerf wrote: > >> > >> Thanks so much for drawing our attention to this notable departure. I > >> knew Andre well in the 1970s and I seem to recall a particularly > >> significant networking working around 1975 in Santa Monica at which Andre > >> was especially active. He and I shared an interest in Petri nets - which I > >> used in my Ph.D. dissertation at UCLA. I also seem to recall that he and > >> Louis Pouzin conspired at a SIGCOMM (?) meeting in Montreal (?) to find a > >> good French restaurant. They queried locals on their restaurant > >> recommendations and rank ordered them based on their wine suggestions. > >> Definitely one of the good guys. > >> > >> v > >> > >> > >> On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 2:06?PM John Day wrote: > >> > >>> I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the > >>> University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the > >>> original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) > >>> > >>> It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. > >>> Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. > >>> > >>> Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of > >>> Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT > >>> (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career > >>> in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. > >>> In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he > >>> launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of > >>> Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and > >>> Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first > >>> conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV > >>> conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 > >>> European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he > >>> received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design > >>> and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking > >>> in Europe". > >>> > >>> Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his > >>> involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP > >>> he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative > >>> until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. > >>> > >>> He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his > >>> mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as > >>> he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my > >>> career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. > >>> > >>> More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to > >>> Andrew L. Russell in 2012: > >>> > >>> https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y > >>> > >>> If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in > >>> French): > >>> > >>> https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine > >>> > >>> Take care, > >>> John Day > >>> > >>> > >> > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Jan 20 15:53:59 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 15:53:59 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <9A29088A-1B75-4907-BBCA-7BEEE3FB50EF@icloud.com> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> <58D57AE6-0421-4210-8F1A-97DEED932C6A@icloud.com> <9A29088A-1B75-4907-BBCA-7BEEE3FB50EF@icloud.com> Message-ID: <2438C5C0-F83C-493C-9BC8-B01388936A3F@icloud.com> On Jan 20, 2024, at 2:09?PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > > > On Jan 20, 2024, at 11:17?AM, Craig Partridge wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> >>> There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains ietf list messages from 1990. [3] Offhand, I don?t know of any earlier complete ietf list. I hope such a list can be retrieved, because there are some things I would like to reread, such as the discussions that took place during the mid-1980s about Internet congestion that eventually led to Van Jacobson?s TCP modifications, RFCs, etc. >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> Most of Van's long thoughful notes went to the End2End mailing list (though some went to the TCP-IP mailing list). I'm not close to the right computer today, but I believe I archived the key ones. As I recall, I created a "best of Van" archive for Rich Stevens when he was writing "TCP-IP Illustrated '' because in some of those notes Van sought to give readers an intuition about the dynamics he was seeing and Rich was trying to do something similar in his book. And some of Van's preliminary (aka in progress) reports on TCP improvements can be found in the meeting reports from early IETF meetings (on the IETF site). >> >> Thanks! >> >> Craig > > I found a post from you in Google Groups sent to the tcp-ip list introduced with the following: [1] > > "Here's my collection of some of Van's notable postings. If folks have others > they think are particularly notable, could they forward copies to me?? > > There was another ?best of Van? collection that I think was put together by Bob Braden taken from either the ietf or end2end lists from around 1987-1988. I thought I bookmarked it. If I find it, I?ll post a link to it. > > ?gregbo > > [1] https://groups.google.com/g/comp.protocols.tcp-ip/c/yRhIox36ot0 > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history I found some of what I was looking for. The LBNL Network Research Group (NRG) Email page [1] contains a link to the Van Jacobson Classic messages on fast recovery/retransmit [2], provided by Bob Braden. Some of the links are also available on Rich Stevens? home page. [3] ?gregbo [1] https://ee.lbl.gov/nrg-email.html [2] https://ee.lbl.gov/tcp.html [3] http://www.kohala.com/start/ From scott.brim at gmail.com Sat Jan 20 18:43:26 2024 From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 21:43:26 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> Message-ID: Yes it was a forerunner collaboration with NY Telephone. On Sat, Jan 20, 2024, 17:43 vinton cerf wrote: > was NYNET distinct from NYSERNET? > > v > > > On Sat, Jan 20, 2024 at 1:50?PM Scott Brim via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >> > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue. I don't remember >> > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were >> > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back >> > and forth. Their pathway to each other through the Internet was >> > somewhat long and often congested. So they decided to fix the problem >> > by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. >> > >> > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 >> > kb/s line. They were surprised to observe that the added line only made >> > things worse. File transfers took even longer than before. Of course >> > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their >> > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to >> > their project. >> > >> >> That might have been us, and if so it's another tie-in for Dave Mills. In >> early January 1987 we lit up the first link in what was to be NYNET (New >> York), between Cornell Theory Center and Columbia IT. We figured Cornell >> would be a gateway for all of NYNET to the budding NSFNet. However, at >> that >> time both Cornell and Columbia CS were connected to ARPAnet, and Columbia >> CS was announcing a static route to HP (net 16) to its campus, for some >> project in a department. At Cornell we believed everything we received, so >> we forwarded Columbia's route to the rest of our campus, thus to our CS >> Arpanet connection, and onward. There was no route filtering anywhere. We >> discovered the HP routing loop pretty quickly and shut down dynamic >> routing. Acouple weeks later we were meeting with Dave, probably at UDel, >> and he said "we have to have bidirectional route filtering", and thus the >> gated project was born. >> >> Scott >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > From lk at cs.ucla.edu Sat Jan 20 20:49:33 2024 From: lk at cs.ucla.edu (Leonard Kleinrock) Date: Sat, 20 Jan 2024 20:49:33 -0800 Subject: [ih] More sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7081C369-4232-44F0-9981-118CA6FBA578@cs.ucla.edu> A true loss. I knew him well. Andre was among those early networking pioneers who helped break ground during those exciting times of discovery and creativity. Sad to see him go. Len > On Jan 20, 2024, at 11:06?AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > I was notified this morning of the passing of Andr? Danthine, at the University of Liege, a long time network researcher and member of the original network traveling circus, as they called it. ;-) > > It is with great sadness that I must inform you of the passing of Prof. Andr? Danthine this January 18th, at the age of 91. > > Andr? was an electromechanical engineer (1959) from the University of Li?ge, Belgium, and Master of Science in Electrical Engineering from MIT (1961). After a few years spent in industry, he started his academic career in 1967 at the University of Li?ge, holding the chair in automatic control. In 1972, after witnessing the first public Arpanet demonstration, he launched the research group in Computer Networking at the University of Li?ge, and connected to the Internet pioneers Louis Pouzin, Vint Cerf and Bob Metcalfe, among others. In 1978 he organized in Li?ge the first conference on Computer Network Protocols, which became the IFIP WG 6.1 PSTV conference in 1981. In 1983, he was the coordinator of one of the first 13 European ESPRIT projects. He retired on September 30, 1997, and in 2000 he received the ACM SIGCOMM award for "Basic contributions to protocol design and modeling, and for leadership in the development of computer networking in Europe". > > Andr? was an active member of our scientific community through his involvement in conferences and international research projects. Within IFIP he chaired TC6 from 1980 to 1985, and was the Belgian TC6 representative until 2004. He was also an early member of IFIP WG6.1 and IFIP WG6.2. > > He had a strong, enthusiastic and endearing personality, and left his mark on generations of students and numerous researchers, including me as he was my PhD advisor and an inspiring leader at the beginning of my career. I owe him a lot, and I will miss him. > > More details about his career can be found in the interview he gave to Andrew L. Russell in 2012: > https://conservancy.umn.edu/bitstream/handle/11299/162412/oh428ad.pdf?sequence=3&isAllowed=y > > If you wish to express condolences, you can use the following link (in French): > https://www.dansnospensees.be/avis-de-deces/deces-detail/18-01-2024/andre-danthine > > Take care, > John Day > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From david.sitman at gmail.com Sun Jan 21 03:00:25 2024 From: david.sitman at gmail.com (David Sitman) Date: Sun, 21 Jan 2024 13:00:25 +0200 Subject: [ih] EARN 40th Anniversary Conference, 20-21 April 2024, Athens Message-ID: In order to celebrate the 40th anniversary of EARN, the EARN 2024 conference will take place in Athens, Greece on April 20-21 2024, in conjunction with the RIPE SEE 12 Meeting. EARN, the European Academic and Research Network, started in 1984 as the first multi-vendor computer communications network in Europe ? before the Internet became widely available in the region. For the next ten years, until it merged with RARE (R?seaux Associ?s pour la Recherche Europ?enne) to form TERENA in 1994, EARN was active in introducing computer networking throughout Europe and beyond (former Soviet republics, the Middle East and North Africa). Among the speakers at the conference: Dennis Jennings Frode Greisen Fran?ois Fl?ckiger Jan Gruntor?d Daniel Karrenberg We welcome all those interested in the history of computer networks to join us at the conference and share ideas, lessons learned, memories and history. If you would like to get more information about the event, if you'd like to participate and, perhaps, even contribute as a speaker, visit the EARN 2024 conference site at https://www.earn2024.net/ If you have any questions or comments for the organizers, please send a personal email to info at earn2024.net and/or support at earn2024.net. Thanks, David Sitman EARN Information Officer 1991-1994 From lk at cs.ucla.edu Mon Jan 22 13:25:41 2024 From: lk at cs.ucla.edu (Leonard Kleinrock) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 13:25:41 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <1C86E02E-CC54-4399-88C0-9A828AD2C0EC@cs.ucla.edu> References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> <1C86E02E-CC54-4399-88C0-9A828AD2C0EC@cs.ucla.edu> Message-ID: I have some data that can add to the discussion regarding early ARPANET lockups, etc. A number of them are detailed and documented in Chapter 6 of my Queueing Systems, Volume 2: Computer Applications (1975). Among those included are: -Reassembly lockup -Direct store-and-forward lockup -Indirect store-and-forward lockup -Christmas lockup -Piggyback lockup and discussions of the early ARPANET flow control protocols. Assuming that this readership finds this of interest, I have scanned and attached a link for two sections of my book (Section 6.3. FLOW CONTROL and Section 6.4. LOCKUPS, DEGRADATIONS AND TRAPS) in which these matters are detailed. The link is https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0ca-SfiMKqzY4N-egPfYRTloA#Deadlocks_etc_pp_438-451_Volume_2 Len Kleinrock UCLA Computer Science Department > On Jan 19, 2024, at 6:20?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: >> (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early routing failures and their effects.) > > OK, I'll jump in..... > > It was painfully easy for routing problems to occur. All one had to do was advertise to a neighboring router that you were the best route to everywhere. A simple bug could do the job. Word would quickly spread, and all traffic would head your way, which sometimes made it impossible to connect to the offending router to try to fix the problem. IIRC, something like that was what the Fuzzballs occasionally did. > > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue. I don't remember exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back and forth. Their pathway to each other through the Internet was somewhat long and often congested. So they decided to fix the problem by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 kb/s line. They were surprised to observe that the added line only made things worse. File transfers took even longer than before. Of course their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to their project. > > Many of the incidents I remember were caused by the routing algorithms which were based on "hops" rather than on time (as had been the case in the Arpanet for a decade or more). This was a well-known problem which I think was part of the motivation for Dave Mills to create the NTP machinery. In addition to routing, there were other Internet mechanisms that depended on time, but had necessarily been implemented "temporarily" until good time mechanisms were available. For example, the TTL (Time To Live) and TOS (Type Of Service) values in IP were supposed to provide the routers with information to route IP datagrams over the most appropriate route, or quickly discard them if there was no expectation they could possibly get to their destination in time to still be useful. > > Dave worked hard to get Time as an inherent element of The Internet, and our expectation was that TCP and IP software throughout the Internet would be changed to make decisions based on Time rather than Hops. I'm not sure if that ever happened. The Internet now knows what time it is, but does networking software today ever look at its watch? > > Another incident I recall was not an Internet failure, but rather a situation where the Internet terrorized the Arpanet. > > The Arpanet was touted as a "packet network", but in reality it was a virtual circuit network, using packets internally. There were lots of mechanisms inside the Arpanet IMPs to make all user traffic travel to its destination intact and in the same order it was sent. The network was designed to match the typical usage patterns of the era - people connected to some computer somewhere on the Arpanet, did their work, and disconnected minutes or even hours later. Inside the Arpanet, the mechanisms to set up virtual circuits consumed resources and took time, but with sessions lasting minutes or hours the impact was tolerable. > > One day the Arpanet was having problems and response times were noticeably slower than usual. Investigation revealed that the Arpanet was flailing, constantly setting up and tearing down virtual circuits, each of which was only lasting for a second or two. The Arpanet NOC (down the hall from my office) was in crisis. > > Eventually the problem was traced down to a new release of OS software (BSD, IIRC) that had just been posted on the Arpanet, and was being installed in the large numbers of workstations (Sun, IIRC) that had started appearing on the Internet. The new OS release included a new tool to advise its users of the current status of the Internet. It accomplished that by "pinging" every router every few minutes to see if that router was up and responsive. > > Pinging involved sending a single datagram, and receiving a single datgram in response. But each such datagram required the Arpanet to set up a virtual circuit to carry that traffic. With lots of OSes and lots of routers now scattered around the Arpanet, it was trying to do something it was never designed to do. As more workstations loaded the new OS release, the problem only got worse. > > Although this wasn't an "Internet failure", it was a system failure, caused by the Internet. Administrative action suppressed the problem and as the Arpanet was decommissioned the problem disappeared. Or perhaps moved somewhere else? > > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? > > Jack Haverty > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Mon Jan 22 13:50:27 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 16:50:27 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> <1C86E02E-CC54-4399-88C0-9A828AD2C0EC@cs.ucla.edu> Message-ID: Great examples Len! On Mon, Jan 22, 2024, 16:26 Leonard Kleinrock via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > I have some data that can add to the discussion regarding early ARPANET > lockups, etc. A number of them are detailed and documented in Chapter 6 of > my Queueing Systems, Volume 2: Computer Applications (1975). Among those > included are: > > -Reassembly lockup > -Direct store-and-forward lockup > -Indirect store-and-forward lockup > -Christmas lockup > -Piggyback lockup > and discussions of the early ARPANET flow control protocols. > > Assuming that this readership finds this of interest, I have scanned and > attached a link for two sections of my book (Section 6.3. FLOW CONTROL and > Section 6.4. LOCKUPS, DEGRADATIONS AND TRAPS) in which these matters are > detailed. The link is > https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0ca-SfiMKqzY4N-egPfYRTloA#Deadlocks_etc_pp_438-451_Volume_2 > > Len Kleinrock > UCLA Computer Science Department > > > > > On Jan 19, 2024, at 6:20?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > >> (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early > routing failures and their effects.) > > > > OK, I'll jump in..... > > > > It was painfully easy for routing problems to occur. All one had to do > was advertise to a neighboring router that you were the best route to > everywhere. A simple bug could do the job. Word would quickly spread, > and all traffic would head your way, which sometimes made it impossible to > connect to the offending router to try to fix the problem. IIRC, something > like that was what the Fuzzballs occasionally did. > > > > Another incident I recall was also a routing issue. I don't remember > exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were > collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data back and > forth. Their pathway to each other through the Internet was somewhat long > and often congested. So they decided to fix the problem by installing a > circuit directly between their two campus' routers. > > > > Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a 9.6 > kb/s line. They were surprised to observe that the added line only made > things worse. File transfers took even longer than before. Of course > their change to the topology of the Internet had unexpectedly made their > 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of Internet traffic unrelated to > their project. > > > > Many of the incidents I remember were caused by the routing algorithms > which were based on "hops" rather than on time (as had been the case in the > Arpanet for a decade or more). This was a well-known problem which I > think was part of the motivation for Dave Mills to create the NTP > machinery. In addition to routing, there were other Internet mechanisms > that depended on time, but had necessarily been implemented "temporarily" > until good time mechanisms were available. For example, the TTL (Time To > Live) and TOS (Type Of Service) values in IP were supposed to provide the > routers with information to route IP datagrams over the most appropriate > route, or quickly discard them if there was no expectation they could > possibly get to their destination in time to still be useful. > > > > Dave worked hard to get Time as an inherent element of The Internet, and > our expectation was that TCP and IP software throughout the Internet would > be changed to make decisions based on Time rather than Hops. I'm not sure > if that ever happened. The Internet now knows what time it is, but does > networking software today ever look at its watch? > > > > Another incident I recall was not an Internet failure, but rather a > situation where the Internet terrorized the Arpanet. > > > > The Arpanet was touted as a "packet network", but in reality it was a > virtual circuit network, using packets internally. There were lots of > mechanisms inside the Arpanet IMPs to make all user traffic travel to its > destination intact and in the same order it was sent. The network was > designed to match the typical usage patterns of the era - people connected > to some computer somewhere on the Arpanet, did their work, and disconnected > minutes or even hours later. Inside the Arpanet, the mechanisms to set up > virtual circuits consumed resources and took time, but with sessions > lasting minutes or hours the impact was tolerable. > > > > One day the Arpanet was having problems and response times were > noticeably slower than usual. Investigation revealed that the Arpanet was > flailing, constantly setting up and tearing down virtual circuits, each of > which was only lasting for a second or two. The Arpanet NOC (down the > hall from my office) was in crisis. > > > > Eventually the problem was traced down to a new release of OS software > (BSD, IIRC) that had just been posted on the Arpanet, and was being > installed in the large numbers of workstations (Sun, IIRC) that had started > appearing on the Internet. The new OS release included a new tool to > advise its users of the current status of the Internet. It accomplished > that by "pinging" every router every few minutes to see if that router was > up and responsive. > > > > Pinging involved sending a single datagram, and receiving a single > datgram in response. But each such datagram required the Arpanet to set up > a virtual circuit to carry that traffic. With lots of OSes and lots of > routers now scattered around the Arpanet, it was trying to do something it > was never designed to do. As more workstations loaded the new OS release, > the problem only got worse. > > > > Although this wasn't an "Internet failure", it was a system failure, > caused by the Internet. Administrative action suppressed the problem and > as the Arpanet was decommissioned the problem disappeared. Or perhaps > moved somewhere else? > > > > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? > > > > Jack Haverty > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jan 22 14:18:35 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 14:18:35 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <04156667-d654-41fc-a825-5a614f823677@iwl.com> <1C86E02E-CC54-4399-88C0-9A828AD2C0EC@cs.ucla.edu> Message-ID: <25c83623-6a5d-49cf-8408-3c19db0e3d26@3kitty.org> Does anyone know of any mathematical analyses of the Internet architecture, i.e., involving TCP flow control and retransmissions assigned to the host computers, and switches passing datagrams through underlying highly variable networks instead of telephone circuits? When we were implementing TCP and routers in the 1980s, I recall looking for but not finding any theoretical backup for the architectural decisions that were being made (such as using "hops" for routing instead of transit time, retransmission end-to-end rather than by each link, and "Source Quench" as a mechanism for congestion control). I also recall discussions where ARPA's charter was discussed.?? To plagiarize Star Trek - ARPA should strive to go where no one has gone before.?? So some decisions about protocols or algorithms were made not because we knew that some new specific approach would work (in theory or from experience), but rather because we did not know that the approach would not work. Just curious if there's been any more formal theoretical analyses of the Internet architecture, which is quite different from the Arpanet. ? TCP does a good job keeping data flowing, but by its nature it splits the Arpanet-style network mechanisms so that neither the end-user nor the network operator has a clear view of what's happening in the Internet. For example, while operating a corporate "intranet" (in the 1990s) we observed a behavior where a TCP connection would be operating as expected, a momentary circuit outage would occur, a flurry of retransmissions would compensate for the glitch, and the TCP connection would just continue as it should, without the users even noticing.?? But we observed that every datagram was being sent twice after the glitch, so total user throughput was halved and circuit efficiency was alarmingly poor for the duration of the connection. On an expensive trans-Pacific circuit, that mattered.?? We only noticed this situation because we were both the user and the network operator at the time, and happened to "catch" the behavior. Serendipity. Was such observed behavior just a one-time anomaly?? Or is it somehow inherent in the Internet architecture??? How about other observations?? Is the behavior today known as "bufferbloat" avoidable?? Or is it inherent in the design? What does theory say about such characteristics of today's Internet? Jack Haverty On 1/22/24 13:25, Leonard Kleinrock wrote: > > I have some data that can add to the discussion regarding early > ARPANET lockups, etc. A number of them are detailed and documented in > Chapter 6 of my /Queueing Systems, Volume 2: Computer Applications > (19/75).??Among those included are: > > -Reassembly lockup > -Direct store-and-forward lockup > -Indirect store-and-forward lockup > -Christmas lockup > -Piggyback lockup > and discussions of the early ARPANET flow control protocols. > > Assuming that this readership finds this of interest, I have scanned > and attached a link for ?two sections of my book (Section 6.3. FLOW > CONTROL and Section 6.4. LOCKUPS, DEGRADATIONS AND TRAPS) in which > these matters are detailed. ?The link is > https://www.icloud.com/iclouddrive/0ca-SfiMKqzY4N-egPfYRTloA#Deadlocks_etc_pp_438-451_Volume_2 > > Len Kleinrock > UCLA Computer Science Department > > >> On Jan 19, 2024, at 6:20?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> wrote: >> >> On 1/19/24 16:00, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: >>> (I've never felt that I have an adequate understanding of the early >>> routing failures and their effects.) >> >> OK, I'll jump in..... >> >> It was painfully easy for routing problems to occur. ? All one had to >> do was advertise to a neighboring router that you were the best route >> to everywhere. ? A simple bug could do the job. Word would quickly >> spread, and all traffic would head your way, which sometimes made it >> impossible to connect to the offending router to try to fix the >> problem.? IIRC, something like that was what the Fuzzballs >> occasionally did. >> >> Another incident I recall was also a routing issue.? I don't remember >> exactly where it happened, but two sites, universities IIRC, were >> collaborating on some research project and had a need to send data >> back and forth.? Their pathway to each other through the Internet was >> somewhat long and often congested. ? So they decided to fix the >> problem by installing a circuit directly between their two campus' >> routers. >> >> Money was of course an issue, but they found the funds to pay for a >> 9.6 kb/s line.? They were surprised to observe that the added line >> only made things worse.? File transfers took even longer than >> before.? Of course their change to the topology of the Internet had >> unexpectedly made their 9.6 line the best route for all sorts of >> Internet traffic unrelated to their project. >> >> Many of the incidents I remember were caused by the routing >> algorithms which were based on "hops" rather than on time (as had >> been the case in the Arpanet for a decade or more).?? This was a >> well-known problem which I think was part of the motivation for Dave >> Mills to create the NTP machinery.? In addition to routing, there >> were other Internet mechanisms that depended on time, but had >> necessarily been implemented "temporarily" until good time mechanisms >> were available.? For example, the TTL (Time To Live) and TOS (Type Of >> Service) values in IP were supposed to provide the routers with >> information to route IP datagrams over the most appropriate route, or >> quickly discard them if there was no expectation they could possibly >> get to their destination in time to still be useful. >> >> Dave worked hard to get Time as an inherent element of The Internet, >> and our expectation was that TCP and IP software throughout the >> Internet would be changed to make decisions based on Time rather than >> Hops.?? I'm not sure if that ever happened.?? The Internet now knows >> what time it is, but does networking software today ever look at its >> watch? >> >> Another incident I recall was not an Internet failure, but rather a >> situation where the Internet terrorized the Arpanet. >> >> The Arpanet was touted as a "packet network", but in reality it was a >> virtual circuit network, using packets internally.?? There were lots >> of mechanisms inside the Arpanet IMPs to make all user traffic travel >> to its destination intact and in the same order it was sent.?? The >> network was designed to match the typical usage patterns of the era - >> people connected to some computer somewhere on the Arpanet, did their >> work, and disconnected minutes or even hours later. Inside the >> Arpanet, the mechanisms to set up virtual circuits consumed resources >> and took time, but with sessions lasting minutes or hours the impact >> was tolerable. >> >> One day the Arpanet was having problems and response times were >> noticeably slower than usual.? Investigation revealed that the >> Arpanet was flailing, constantly setting up and tearing down virtual >> circuits, each of which was only lasting for a second or two.?? The >> Arpanet NOC (down the hall from my office) was in crisis. >> >> Eventually the problem was traced down to a new release of OS >> software (BSD, IIRC) that had just been posted on the Arpanet, and >> was being installed in the large numbers of workstations (Sun, IIRC) >> that had started appearing on the Internet.? The new OS release >> included a new tool to advise its users of the current status of the >> Internet.? It accomplished that by "pinging" every router every few >> minutes to see if that router was up and responsive. >> >> Pinging involved sending a single datagram, and receiving a single >> datgram in response.? But each such datagram required the Arpanet to >> set up a virtual circuit to carry that traffic. With lots of OSes and >> lots of routers now scattered around the Arpanet, it was trying to do >> something it was never designed to do.?? As more workstations loaded >> the new OS release, the problem only got worse. >> >> Although this wasn't an "Internet failure", it was a system failure, >> caused by the Internet. Administrative action suppressed the problem >> and as the Arpanet was decommissioned the problem disappeared.? Or >> perhaps moved somewhere else? >> >> Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? >> >> Jack Haverty >> >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jan 22 14:55:52 2024 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 17:55:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet Message-ID: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? This may not be the _kind_ of failure you're thinking of, but I remember one... We had just brought up the first ARPANET-connected gateway at MIT, and we needed to let the BBN 'core' gateways (I forget what the jargon name for them was at that point) know where MIT (net 18.) was connected, now. So, I got a copy of the GGP spec (IEN-30, or IEN-109), but I was too busy/lazy to do a full implementation of GGP - I just typed in (in octal!) a 'routing update' packet that showed MIT-GW as connected to net 18, along with a few lines of code to send a copy, once a minute, to a list of gateways on the ARPANET (here: GWTAB:.BYTE 12,3,0,50 ; BBN .BYTE 12,2,0,31 ; CSS-GATEWAY .BYTE 12,1,0,24 ; DCEC .BYTE 12,3,0,110 ; RCC-GATEWAY is a copy of a later version of the table). I loaded this in to the MIT-GW, started it up - but it didn't seem to be working. Shortly thereafter, IIRC, I got a call from someone at BBN, saying something like 'are you sending us GGP packets?' Apparently all their gateways had crashed - after they got my routing update. It turns out they had changed the format of routing updates - but nobody had gotten around to updating the GGP documentation. So I had been sending them old-format routing updates - which gave the BBN gateways indigestion. I remember that at the next Internet meeting, I wound up telling Vint this story (probably because somebody had been giving me grief about 'crashing all the BBN gateways'), and he got this look on his face, and pulled out his little 'things to do' notebook and wrote something in it. We were later speculating that he'd written down 'fire Div 6' (or Div 4 - whichever one it was that Ginny worked for), because shortly thereafter, it was announced that Div 6 (or Div 4, whichever one it used to be) would be replaced by the other one in running the BBN gateways. I have no idea if there's any truth to that, but the change was made shortly afterwards! Noel PS: A later version of the offending code still exists; here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/gw/conf/sbr/route-1.mac if anyone is interested. Note that the update format there is _not_ the one in IEN-109! :-) From vint at google.com Mon Jan 22 15:11:54 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 18:11:54 -0500 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: While I don't remember this specific incident it sounds authentic (I often write down action items to remember them). It may be that I was intending to move into an operation posture, in which case I would want the same division that was monitoring the Arpanet IMPs to be monitoring the gateways. v On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 5:55?PM Noel Chiappa wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > > > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? > > This may not be the _kind_ of failure you're thinking of, but I remember > one... > > We had just brought up the first ARPANET-connected gateway at MIT, and we > needed to let the BBN 'core' gateways (I forget what the jargon name for > them > was at that point) know where MIT (net 18.) was connected, now. > > So, I got a copy of the GGP spec (IEN-30, or IEN-109), but I was too > busy/lazy to do a full implementation of GGP - I just typed in (in octal!) > a > 'routing update' packet that showed MIT-GW as connected to net 18, along > with > a few lines of code to send a copy, once a minute, to a list of gateways on > the ARPANET (here: > > GWTAB:.BYTE 12,3,0,50 ; BBN > .BYTE 12,2,0,31 ; CSS-GATEWAY > .BYTE 12,1,0,24 ; DCEC > .BYTE 12,3,0,110 ; RCC-GATEWAY > > is a copy of a later version of the table). I loaded this in to the MIT-GW, > started it up - but it didn't seem to be working. > > Shortly thereafter, IIRC, I got a call from someone at BBN, saying > something > like 'are you sending us GGP packets?' Apparently all their gateways had > crashed - after they got my routing update. > > It turns out they had changed the format of routing updates - but nobody > had > gotten around to updating the GGP documentation. So I had been sending them > old-format routing updates - which gave the BBN gateways indigestion. > > I remember that at the next Internet meeting, I wound up telling Vint this > story (probably because somebody had been giving me grief about 'crashing > all > the BBN gateways'), and he got this look on his face, and pulled out his > little 'things to do' notebook and wrote something in it. > > We were later speculating that he'd written down 'fire Div 6' (or Div 4 - > whichever one it was that Ginny worked for), because shortly thereafter, it > was announced that Div 6 (or Div 4, whichever one it used to be) would be > replaced by the other one in running the BBN gateways. I have no idea if > there's any truth to that, but the change was made shortly afterwards! > > Noel > > PS: A later version of the offending code still exists; here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/gw/conf/sbr/route-1.mac > > if anyone is interested. Note that the update format there is _not_ the one > in IEN-109! :-) > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jan 22 15:28:02 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 15:28:02 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Ahah!? Another piece of history falls into place. I recall Vint asking me at some point if I'd be willing to take over the gateway work and turn the core Internet into a 24x7 operation, as the Arpanet had become by then.? I didn't have a clue how to do that but it sounded like a fun project so I said "Sure".?? That may have occurred at the same Internet meeting that Noel recalls. The gateway work moved shortly thereafter, from BBN Div4 (where Packet Radio work happened) to BBN Div6 (where Arpanet and various TCP implementations were done). I didn't find out until years later that some of the Div4 folks were sure that I had "stolen" their project.?? That wasn't true, but I was blamed for it. Now we know the Truth.?? Noel was the culprit! Jack Haverty On 1/22/24 15:11, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > While I don't remember this specific incident it sounds authentic (I often > write down action items to remember them). > It may be that I was intending to move into an operation posture, in which > case I would want the same division that was monitoring the Arpanet IMPs to > be monitoring the gateways. > > v > > > On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 5:55?PM Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20 PM Jack Haverty wrote: >> >> > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? >> >> This may not be the _kind_ of failure you're thinking of, but I remember >> one... >> >> We had just brought up the first ARPANET-connected gateway at MIT, and we >> needed to let the BBN 'core' gateways (I forget what the jargon name for >> them >> was at that point) know where MIT (net 18.) was connected, now. >> >> So, I got a copy of the GGP spec (IEN-30, or IEN-109), but I was too >> busy/lazy to do a full implementation of GGP - I just typed in (in octal!) >> a >> 'routing update' packet that showed MIT-GW as connected to net 18, along >> with >> a few lines of code to send a copy, once a minute, to a list of gateways on >> the ARPANET (here: >> >> GWTAB:.BYTE 12,3,0,50 ; BBN >> .BYTE 12,2,0,31 ; CSS-GATEWAY >> .BYTE 12,1,0,24 ; DCEC >> .BYTE 12,3,0,110 ; RCC-GATEWAY >> >> is a copy of a later version of the table). I loaded this in to the MIT-GW, >> started it up - but it didn't seem to be working. >> >> Shortly thereafter, IIRC, I got a call from someone at BBN, saying >> something >> like 'are you sending us GGP packets?' Apparently all their gateways had >> crashed - after they got my routing update. >> >> It turns out they had changed the format of routing updates - but nobody >> had >> gotten around to updating the GGP documentation. So I had been sending them >> old-format routing updates - which gave the BBN gateways indigestion. >> >> I remember that at the next Internet meeting, I wound up telling Vint this >> story (probably because somebody had been giving me grief about 'crashing >> all >> the BBN gateways'), and he got this look on his face, and pulled out his >> little 'things to do' notebook and wrote something in it. >> >> We were later speculating that he'd written down 'fire Div 6' (or Div 4 - >> whichever one it was that Ginny worked for), because shortly thereafter, it >> was announced that Div 6 (or Div 4, whichever one it used to be) would be >> replaced by the other one in running the BBN gateways. I have no idea if >> there's any truth to that, but the change was made shortly afterwards! >> >> Noel >> >> PS: A later version of the offending code still exists; here: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/gw/conf/sbr/route-1.mac >> >> if anyone is interested. Note that the update format there is _not_ the one >> in IEN-109! :-) >> > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Mon Jan 22 17:09:06 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 01:09:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <75105940.1838284.1705972146393@mail.yahoo.com> I am pretty sure Charlie Lynn was working on a TCP implementation in Div 4 (Packet Radio group) when I was? there.? I did figure out eventually that the gateway work was in Div 6. barbara On Monday, January 22, 2024 at 03:28:15 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Ahah!? Another piece of history falls into place. I recall Vint asking me at some point if I'd be willing to take over the gateway work and turn the core Internet into a 24x7 operation, as the Arpanet had become by then.? I didn't have a clue how to do that but it sounded like a fun project so I said "Sure".?? That may have occurred at the same Internet meeting that Noel recalls. The gateway work moved shortly thereafter, from BBN Div4 (where Packet Radio work happened) to BBN Div6 (where Arpanet and various TCP implementations were done). I didn't find out until years later that some of the Div4 folks were sure that I had "stolen" their project.?? That wasn't true, but I was blamed for it. Now we know the Truth.?? Noel was the culprit! Jack Haverty On 1/22/24 15:11, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > While I don't remember this specific incident it sounds authentic (I often > write down action items to remember them). > It may be that I was intending to move into an operation posture, in which > case I would want the same division that was monitoring the Arpanet IMPs to > be monitoring the gateways. > > v > > > On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 5:55?PM Noel Chiappa > wrote: > >>? ? ? > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20 PM Jack Haverty wrote: >> >>? ? ? > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? >> >> This may not be the _kind_ of failure you're thinking of, but I remember >> one... >> >> We had just brought up the first ARPANET-connected gateway at MIT, and we >> needed to let the BBN 'core' gateways (I forget what the jargon name for >> them >> was at that point) know where MIT (net 18.) was connected, now. >> >> So, I got a copy of the GGP spec (IEN-30, or IEN-109), but I was too >> busy/lazy to do a full implementation of GGP - I just typed in (in octal!) >> a >> 'routing update' packet that showed MIT-GW as connected to net 18, along >> with >> a few lines of code to send a copy, once a minute, to a list of gateways on >> the ARPANET (here: >> >>? ? GWTAB:.BYTE? 12,3,0,50? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; BBN >>? ? ? ? ? .BYTE? 12,2,0,31? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; CSS-GATEWAY >>? ? ? ? ? .BYTE? 12,1,0,24? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; DCEC >>? ? ? ? ? .BYTE? 12,3,0,110? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; RCC-GATEWAY >> >> is a copy of a later version of the table). I loaded this in to the MIT-GW, >> started it up - but it didn't seem to be working. >> >> Shortly thereafter, IIRC, I got a call from someone at BBN, saying >> something >> like 'are you sending us GGP packets?' Apparently all their gateways had >> crashed - after they got my routing update. >> >> It turns out they had changed the format of routing updates - but nobody >> had >> gotten around to updating the GGP documentation. So I had been sending them >> old-format routing updates - which gave the BBN gateways indigestion. >> >> I remember that at the next Internet meeting, I wound up telling Vint this >> story (probably because somebody had been giving me grief about 'crashing >> all >> the BBN gateways'), and he got this look on his face, and pulled out his >> little 'things to do' notebook and wrote something in it. >> >> We were later speculating that he'd written down 'fire Div 6' (or Div 4 - >> whichever one it was that Ginny worked for), because shortly thereafter, it >> was announced that Div 6 (or Div 4, whichever one it used to be) would be >> replaced by the other one in running the BBN gateways. I have no idea if >> there's any truth to that, but the change was made shortly afterwards! >> >>? ? ? ? ? Noel >> >> PS: A later version of the offending code still exists; here: >> >>? ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/gw/conf/sbr/route-1.mac >> >> if anyone is interested. Note that the update format there is _not_ the one >> in IEN-109! :-) >> > > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jan 22 17:56:54 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 22 Jan 2024 17:56:54 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <75105940.1838284.1705972146393@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <75105940.1838284.1705972146393@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b78bbbb-d2c3-419f-af07-4b9cc59a7685@3kitty.org> Yes, there was TCP work in both pieces of BBN.? At first, Bill Plummer was doing Tenex on the PDP-10, and I was doing the first Unix implementation on a PDP-11/40.? Both of those were involved in the "TCP Bakeoff" that Jon Postel organized.? Later more implementations were done, e.g., Charlie Lynn in Div4, and in Div6 Gurwitz (Vax Unix), Hinden (TAC), Sax/Edmond (HP3000 Unix), Wingfield/Nemeth (11/70 Unix) and maybe some more I've forgotten now.?? For the historians, lots of detail in the BBN QTRs of the era, accessible on DTIC. Jack On 1/22/24 17:09, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > > I am pretty sure Charlie Lynn was working on a TCP implementation in Div 4 (Packet Radio group) when I was? there.? I did figure out eventually that the gateway work was in Div 6. > barbara > On Monday, January 22, 2024 at 03:28:15 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Ahah!? Another piece of history falls into place. > > I recall Vint asking me at some point if I'd be willing to take over the > gateway work and turn the core Internet into a 24x7 operation, as the > Arpanet had become by then.? I didn't have a clue how to do that but it > sounded like a fun project so I said "Sure".?? That may have occurred at > the same Internet meeting that Noel recalls. > > The gateway work moved shortly thereafter, from BBN Div4 (where Packet > Radio work happened) to BBN Div6 (where Arpanet and various TCP > implementations were done). > > I didn't find out until years later that some of the Div4 folks were > sure that I had "stolen" their project.?? That wasn't true, but I was > blamed for it. > > Now we know the Truth.?? Noel was the culprit! > > Jack Haverty > > > On 1/22/24 15:11, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> While I don't remember this specific incident it sounds authentic (I often >> write down action items to remember them). >> It may be that I was intending to move into an operation posture, in which >> case I would want the same division that was monitoring the Arpanet IMPs to >> be monitoring the gateways. >> >> v >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 5:55?PM Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >> >>> ? ? ? > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20 PM Jack Haverty wrote: >>> >>> ? ? ? > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? >>> >>> This may not be the _kind_ of failure you're thinking of, but I remember >>> one... >>> >>> We had just brought up the first ARPANET-connected gateway at MIT, and we >>> needed to let the BBN 'core' gateways (I forget what the jargon name for >>> them >>> was at that point) know where MIT (net 18.) was connected, now. >>> >>> So, I got a copy of the GGP spec (IEN-30, or IEN-109), but I was too >>> busy/lazy to do a full implementation of GGP - I just typed in (in octal!) >>> a >>> 'routing update' packet that showed MIT-GW as connected to net 18, along >>> with >>> a few lines of code to send a copy, once a minute, to a list of gateways on >>> the ARPANET (here: >>> >>> ? ? GWTAB:.BYTE? 12,3,0,50? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; BBN >>> ? ? ? ? ? .BYTE? 12,2,0,31? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; CSS-GATEWAY >>> ? ? ? ? ? .BYTE? 12,1,0,24? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; DCEC >>> ? ? ? ? ? .BYTE? 12,3,0,110? ? ? ? ? ? ? ; RCC-GATEWAY >>> >>> is a copy of a later version of the table). I loaded this in to the MIT-GW, >>> started it up - but it didn't seem to be working. >>> >>> Shortly thereafter, IIRC, I got a call from someone at BBN, saying >>> something >>> like 'are you sending us GGP packets?' Apparently all their gateways had >>> crashed - after they got my routing update. >>> >>> It turns out they had changed the format of routing updates - but nobody >>> had >>> gotten around to updating the GGP documentation. So I had been sending them >>> old-format routing updates - which gave the BBN gateways indigestion. >>> >>> I remember that at the next Internet meeting, I wound up telling Vint this >>> story (probably because somebody had been giving me grief about 'crashing >>> all >>> the BBN gateways'), and he got this look on his face, and pulled out his >>> little 'things to do' notebook and wrote something in it. >>> >>> We were later speculating that he'd written down 'fire Div 6' (or Div 4 - >>> whichever one it was that Ginny worked for), because shortly thereafter, it >>> was announced that Div 6 (or Div 4, whichever one it used to be) would be >>> replaced by the other one in running the BBN gateways. I have no idea if >>> there's any truth to that, but the change was made shortly afterwards! >>> >>> ? ? ? ? ? Noel >>> >>> PS: A later version of the offending code still exists; here: >>> >>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/gw/conf/sbr/route-1.mac >>> >>> if anyone is interested. Note that the update format there is _not_ the one >>> in IEN-109! :-) >>> >> -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From craig at tereschau.net Tue Jan 23 08:24:19 2024 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 09:24:19 -0700 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <4b78bbbb-d2c3-419f-af07-4b9cc59a7685@3kitty.org> References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <75105940.1838284.1705972146393@mail.yahoo.com> <4b78bbbb-d2c3-419f-af07-4b9cc59a7685@3kitty.org> Message-ID: The Div 6 VAX Unix project evolved over time and people and ran into the late 1980s. It was typically a one-person project and, at the end, I was its supervisor. As I recall, the progression of people working on it was Dennis Rockwell, Bob Walsh, Karen Lam and then David Waitzman. Again, relying on memory, Bob and Dennis worked on evolving Gurwitz's BBN 4BSD code, porting it to 4.1 and 4.2 BSD. Recall the Berkeley 4.1c/4.2 TCP was a rewrite of the BBN 4.1 TCP code by Bill Joy -- exactly to what degree Bill Joy did his own thing and how much he relied on the BBN code is occasionally debated, but I do know as late as 1988, Berkeley would defend a bug in the BSD TCP code by pointing out it originated in the BBN code, so obviously Bill referred to the BBN code. In any case, DARPA continued to support the BBN version for a few years after 4.2BSD came out -- and, if memory serves, BBN licensed its version to some of the rising desktop server vendors (e.g. Apollo). I believe Karen worked primarily on enhancing the BSD 4.2/4.3 TCP, but I could be wrong. I know David worked closely with Steve Deering to enhance 4.3 BSD to support multicast. I am probably getting some details wrong. Craig On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 6:57?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Yes, there was TCP work in both pieces of BBN. At first, Bill Plummer > was doing Tenex on the PDP-10, and I was doing the first Unix > implementation on a PDP-11/40. Both of those were involved in the "TCP > Bakeoff" that Jon Postel organized. Later more implementations were > done, e.g., Charlie Lynn in Div4, and in Div6 Gurwitz (Vax Unix), Hinden > (TAC), Sax/Edmond (HP3000 Unix), Wingfield/Nemeth (11/70 Unix) and maybe > some more I've forgotten now. For the historians, lots of detail in > the BBN QTRs of the era, accessible on DTIC. > Jack > > On 1/22/24 17:09, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > I am pretty sure Charlie Lynn was working on a TCP implementation in Div > 4 (Packet Radio group) when I was there. I did figure out eventually that > the gateway work was in Div 6. > > barbara > > On Monday, January 22, 2024 at 03:28:15 PM PST, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > > > Ahah! Another piece of history falls into place. > > > > I recall Vint asking me at some point if I'd be willing to take over the > > gateway work and turn the core Internet into a 24x7 operation, as the > > Arpanet had become by then. I didn't have a clue how to do that but it > > sounded like a fun project so I said "Sure". That may have occurred at > > the same Internet meeting that Noel recalls. > > > > The gateway work moved shortly thereafter, from BBN Div4 (where Packet > > Radio work happened) to BBN Div6 (where Arpanet and various TCP > > implementations were done). > > > > I didn't find out until years later that some of the Div4 folks were > > sure that I had "stolen" their project. That wasn't true, but I was > > blamed for it. > > > > Now we know the Truth. Noel was the culprit! > > > > Jack Haverty > > > > > > On 1/22/24 15:11, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >> While I don't remember this specific incident it sounds authentic (I > often > >> write down action items to remember them). > >> It may be that I was intending to move into an operation posture, in > which > >> case I would want the same division that was monitoring the Arpanet > IMPs to > >> be monitoring the gateways. > >> > >> v > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jan 22, 2024 at 5:55?PM Noel Chiappa > >> wrote: > >> > >>> > On Fri, Jan 19, 2024 at 9:20 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > >>> > >>> > Anybody else have recollections of early failures...? > >>> > >>> This may not be the _kind_ of failure you're thinking of, but I > remember > >>> one... > >>> > >>> We had just brought up the first ARPANET-connected gateway at MIT, and > we > >>> needed to let the BBN 'core' gateways (I forget what the jargon name > for > >>> them > >>> was at that point) know where MIT (net 18.) was connected, now. > >>> > >>> So, I got a copy of the GGP spec (IEN-30, or IEN-109), but I was too > >>> busy/lazy to do a full implementation of GGP - I just typed in (in > octal!) > >>> a > >>> 'routing update' packet that showed MIT-GW as connected to net 18, > along > >>> with > >>> a few lines of code to send a copy, once a minute, to a list of > gateways on > >>> the ARPANET (here: > >>> > >>> GWTAB:.BYTE 12,3,0,50 ; BBN > >>> .BYTE 12,2,0,31 ; CSS-GATEWAY > >>> .BYTE 12,1,0,24 ; DCEC > >>> .BYTE 12,3,0,110 ; RCC-GATEWAY > >>> > >>> is a copy of a later version of the table). I loaded this in to the > MIT-GW, > >>> started it up - but it didn't seem to be working. > >>> > >>> Shortly thereafter, IIRC, I got a call from someone at BBN, saying > >>> something > >>> like 'are you sending us GGP packets?' Apparently all their gateways > had > >>> crashed - after they got my routing update. > >>> > >>> It turns out they had changed the format of routing updates - but > nobody > >>> had > >>> gotten around to updating the GGP documentation. So I had been sending > them > >>> old-format routing updates - which gave the BBN gateways indigestion. > >>> > >>> I remember that at the next Internet meeting, I wound up telling Vint > this > >>> story (probably because somebody had been giving me grief about > 'crashing > >>> all > >>> the BBN gateways'), and he got this look on his face, and pulled out > his > >>> little 'things to do' notebook and wrote something in it. > >>> > >>> We were later speculating that he'd written down 'fire Div 6' (or Div > 4 - > >>> whichever one it was that Ginny worked for), because shortly > thereafter, it > >>> was announced that Div 6 (or Div 4, whichever one it used to be) would > be > >>> replaced by the other one in running the BBN gateways. I have no idea > if > >>> there's any truth to that, but the change was made shortly afterwards! > >>> > >>> Noel > >>> > >>> PS: A later version of the offending code still exists; here: > >>> > >>> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/gw/conf/sbr/route-1.mac > >>> > >>> if anyone is interested. Note that the update format there is _not_ > the one > >>> in IEN-109! :-) > >>> > >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From dal at riseup.net Tue Jan 23 09:11:39 2024 From: dal at riseup.net (Douglas Lucas) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 17:11:39 +0000 Subject: [ih] February email changes Message-ID: <088800a06b9d0117d1f4bf390e5603ad@riseup.net> Earlier this list discussed forthcoming changes that might impact email delivery. Today I received an email from a WordPress plugin, WP Mail SMTP, advising these changes may affect plugin subscribers. A few days ago I also corresponded with a tech at a small email provider who said they did not think this list's concerns about the February email changes are overblown (I'd forwarded a link to the initial email on the topic). That technician said they were most concerned about harmful impacts on the ability to forward one email account to another email account at a separate provider. For instance, a person or organization might have multiple public-facing email addresses, but only one that they actually manage their email from. WP Mail SMTP published a blog post about this whole topic yesterday: https://wpmailsmtp.com/fix-gmail-blocking-emails/ I'm not really sophisticated enough to assess it. In the case of my blog, DouglasLucas.com/blog, I have an automatic service where commenters can optionally sign up for a notification email if their comment makes it past the moderation hold; they can optionally sign up to be notified if additional comments are made to the blog post beyond theirs; and so on. These notification emails come from an address that's ultimately run/managed by my web hosting company. Because it's run by my web hosting company, and not me, WP Mail SMTP did not spit out DKIM etc compliance info upon my sending a test email. So short of discussing with my web host, I simply have to wait and see how the biggest fish, e.g., gmail, yahoo, etc., respond to a medium- to small-size fish (my web hosting provider) sending out these notification auto-emails. Hope this is of some interest. From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Tue Jan 23 09:16:08 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 17:16:08 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: <111795543.1060429.1706020496510@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <75105940.1838284.1705972146393@mail.yahoo.com> <111795543.1060429.1706020496510@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1698602599.478349.1706030168065@mail.yahoo.com> Trying again with slightly edited text.. Charlie never mentioned anything to me about being in a different? division and he was a good friend of mine. His office was also very close to mine (like at most 2 doors down).? He always attended our weekly packet radio meetings where he would also talk about his work on TCP and none of the other TCP implementers Jack mentioned ever attended. He also went on our group social events. I also associate Div 6 people being on a different floor but maybe that was because of who I was trying to find. I am also pretty sure he used the same admin but I can't really say for sure. barbara On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 at 06:35:00 AM PST, Alex McKenzie wrote: To the best of my knowledge, Charlie Lynn was always in Div 6.? That doesn't mean that he couldn't have been working on a Div 4 project. Cheers,Alex On Monday, January 22, 2024 at 08:10:08 PM EST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: I am pretty sure Charlie Lynn was working on a TCP implementation in Div 4 (Packet Radio group) when I was? there.? I did figure out eventually that the gateway work was in Div 6. barbara From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Jan 23 09:29:46 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 09:29:46 -0800 Subject: [ih] Failures of the early Internet In-Reply-To: References: <20240122225552.270E918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <75105940.1838284.1705972146393@mail.yahoo.com> <4b78bbbb-d2c3-419f-af07-4b9cc59a7685@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <64E3C161-3E89-4A38-AEC3-12CA65B103F9@icloud.com> On Jan 23, 2024, at 8:24?AM, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > > The Div 6 VAX Unix project evolved over time and people and ran into the > late 1980s. It was typically a one-person project and, at the end, I was > its supervisor. As I recall, the progression of people working on it was > Dennis Rockwell, Bob Walsh, Karen Lam and then David Waitzman. Again, > relying on memory, Bob and Dennis worked on evolving Gurwitz's BBN 4BSD > code, porting it to 4.1 and 4.2 BSD. Recall the Berkeley 4.1c/4.2 TCP was a > rewrite of the BBN 4.1 TCP code by Bill Joy -- exactly to what degree Bill > Joy did his own thing and how much he relied on the BBN code is > occasionally debated, but I do know as late as 1988, Berkeley would defend > a bug in the BSD TCP code by pointing out it originated in the BBN code, so > obviously Bill referred to the BBN code. In any case, DARPA continued to > support the BBN version for a few years after 4.2BSD came out -- and, if > memory serves, BBN licensed its version to some of the rising desktop > server vendors (e.g. Apollo). > > I believe Karen worked primarily on enhancing the BSD 4.2/4.3 TCP, but I > could be wrong. I know David worked closely with Steve Deering to enhance > 4.3 BSD to support multicast. > > I am probably getting some details wrong. > > Craig > According to this post from the tcp-ip list, Karen Lam took over from Bob Walsh when he went to grad school. https://groups.google.com/g/fa.tcp-ip/c/OC4cSjInGCU/m/gPezcfARzFkJ ?gregbo From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 23 10:01:27 2024 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:01:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Message-ID: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> {Trying to catch up...} > From: Greg Skinner > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains > ietf list messages from 1990. That is better than nothing (considering that the Web-accessible archive only starts in 1992), but it's still leaves a _enormous_ hole: the 1st IETF (21 attendees; held jointly held with the first InArc meeting, IIRC) was in January, 1986 - so there's over 4 years of IETF list emails still not available. I would guess that there's not one place that they'd all be available? (If CNRI had a log file of list traffic, would they still have it accessible - and if they had backups, do they still exist?) We should get some historian started on trying to track them all down - who would be a likely target to take that monumental search on? The CHM? And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used before the ietf list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives will be an even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not - but where else? ISI, SRI or BBN? Pretty amazing that so much of the early history has been lost. At least Jon did all the minutes, available as IENs. Noel From craig at tereschau.net Tue Jan 23 10:33:53 2024 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 11:33:53 -0700 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 11:01?AM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used before the > ietf > list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives will be an > even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not - but where > else? ISI, SRI or BBN? > I think that list was called "inarc" -- recall IETF was an offshoot of the INARC Task Force (INARC evolved into a research group and then expired around 1992). Dave Mills ran it and probably ran the email list at UDEL? Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 23 10:43:42 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 10:43:42 -0800 Subject: [ih] February email changes In-Reply-To: <088800a06b9d0117d1f4bf390e5603ad@riseup.net> References: <088800a06b9d0117d1f4bf390e5603ad@riseup.net> Message-ID: On 1/23/2024 9:11 AM, Douglas Lucas via Internet-history wrote: > Earlier this list discussed forthcoming changes that might impact email > delivery. Today I received an email from a WordPress plugin, WP Mail > SMTP, advising these changes may affect plugin subscribers. A few days > ago I also corresponded with a tech at a small email provider who said > they did not think this list's concerns about the February email changes > are overblown Douglas, This is a history list, not an email operations list. A better venue to consider for your concerns might be the ietf-smtp mailing list: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-smtp Another is at: Mailop <#> Mail Operators' List ? https://www.mailop.org/ ?"Mailop is a mailing list and community designed to improve the dialogue and build relationships between mail operators." d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Jan 23 12:43:31 2024 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 09:43:31 +1300 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> There seems to be a lot of material at https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/database/papers/, including inarc.pdf which is how Google got me there. Even more stuff up one level at https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/database/ Probably this is a good time to get that material into a long-term archive. Regards Brian Carpenter On 24-Jan-24 07:33, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 11:01?AM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> >> >> And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used before the >> ietf >> list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives will be an >> even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not - but where >> else? ISI, SRI or BBN? >> > > I think that list was called "inarc" -- recall IETF was an offshoot of the > INARC Task Force (INARC evolved into a research group and then expired > around 1992). Dave Mills ran it and probably ran the email list at UDEL? > > Craig > > From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 23 13:27:30 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:27:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56860d15-d50d-4f10-8d90-767fead5aeef@dcrocker.net> On 1/23/2024 12:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > Probably this is a good time to get that material into a long-term > archive. Indeed. Consider how obscure some of the locations tend to be, for these sorts of archeological efforts, as topic come up on this list. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jan 23 13:50:01 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:50:01 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <56860d15-d50d-4f10-8d90-767fead5aeef@dcrocker.net> References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> <56860d15-d50d-4f10-8d90-767fead5aeef@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: There's a variety of organizations that have been compiling oral and even video histories by interviewing us IOFs (Internet Old Farts). I find it curious that no one seems interested in preserving the history captured in emails like the ones here and on many past mailing lists. Ages ago (mid 1970s) we used the Datacomputer as a place to store "important" emails for posterity.?? After all, it would take a long time to fill up that one terabit warehouse!?? So naive...??? There were a bunch of early "important" emails put in the Datacomputer - things like email proposals, interactions with ARPA, reports, etc. I wonder if they still exist somewhere on backup tapes. Jack On 1/23/24 13:27, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 1/23/2024 12:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> Probably this is a good time to get that material into a long-term >> archive. > > > Indeed. > > Consider how obscure some of the locations tend to be, for these sorts > of archeological efforts, as topic come up on this list. > > d/ > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jan 23 13:57:01 2024 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 13:57:01 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> <56860d15-d50d-4f10-8d90-767fead5aeef@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <0ebfd574-3e56-420d-9d1f-c595592a0b71@dcrocker.net> On 1/23/2024 1:50 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > I find it curious that no one seems interested in preserving the > history captured in emails like the ones here and on many past mailing > lists. I tried raising the issue a few times, over the years, notably around the IETF, where email, internet drafts, and the like are an integral part of its history.? Never got any traction. My guess is that the fact that the material gets backed up is thought to be equivalent to museum-quality archiving. The interesting technical part is that these repositories continue to grow, so that serious, long-term archiving requires some sort of automated feed when new material appears. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net mast:@dcrocker at mastodon.social From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Jan 23 17:09:28 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 17:09:28 -0800 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 (Xerox Alto TCP and the ICCB) In-Reply-To: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9B4013F0-423B-4148-B7A0-A934DF16BD52@icloud.com> On Jan 11, 2024, at 9:14?AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > >> From:John Shoch > >> When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of >> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included >> Nova-based PUP "gateways" > > Umm, no. I cannot speak with certainty about what Stanford and CMU got, but I > can say with great certainty that all that MIT got was several UNIBUS > Experimental Ethernet cards: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_Experimental_Ethernet_interface > > I believe, from scraps I heard about what happened at Stanford and CMU, that > it was the same there. > > We had to write code to drive them; in the MIT AI Lab, the MIT-AI ITS machine's > CHAOS-11 got a CHAOS->EFTP protocol translator (so they could print files on > the Dover); in LCS, I added code the 'C Gateway' to both talk to the > Experimental Ethernet (we sent IP packets over it; I assume that since PARC > was on the fringes [yes, I know about the 'hints' early on] of the TCP/IP > effort, they had already allocated an Experimental Ethernet packet type for > IP, and we didn't have to ask for one), and speak PUP. (Although the only > physical network on which it was prepared to send PUPs was our sole > Experimental Ethernet - so why I wrote a PUP forwarder is a mystery to me - > there was no place to send PUPs _to_.) > > (The code for both survives - I was just looking at it to give authoritative > answers about the CGW code. The CHAOS-11 code survives, too. If anyone is > curious.) > > Nobody at MIT made real use of PUPs; in LCS, we had IP, and in the AI Lab, > they has CHAOS (and of course both had our own LANs, too). Dave Clark wrote a > TCP for the Alto, and IIRC it was possible to TELNET from an Alto to a TCP/IP > host. I suspect that most of the IP traffic on the Experimental Ethernet was > TFTP packets headed to the Dover Spooler (which talked TFTP on one side, and > EFTP on the other - although not via a protocol translator, I think; IIRC it > 'buffered' files on disk). > > >> which later led to the Stanford/Cisco multi-protocol routers) > > From what I recall of Yeager's multi-protocol router at Stanford, that was > true there, but I am not sure about MIT. (My memory is not clear on how much > of an influence PUP was; see below for more - I now think it was not much.) > At MIT, we had two competing protocol families entrenched (well entrenched, > in the case of CHAOS; less so, for TCP/IP) before Ethernet and PUP arrived, > and thus had a prior incentive to uncover the multi-protocol router approach. > > There is a document from Dave Clark, "MIT Campus Network Implementation", > iniial draft dated October 1982 (which I don't have in front of me, although > I may have a copy buried in boxes somewhere), the one I do have is a later > one, from June 1983. It captures an intermediate stage in the thinking of how > multiple protocol families would be handled on the proposed MIT Campus Network. > > It talks about two approaches, the first being an "MIT Standard Network > Protocol", which would be a ubiquitous packet transport service. My > recollection is that this was the only approach mentioned in the older draft > - and that I didn't think it was practical. My take came from several > previous attempts to do something like this for CHAOS and IP (the ill-fated > 'MIT Protocol Word', or "Muppet"), which had utterly failed to get any > traction. So I proposed the "multi-protocol spine" approach, and argued Dave > into switching to that that approach in the later draft. > > To answer charges that multi-protocol routers were impractical, I wrote > multiple forwarders for the CGW (which was started, IIRC, to show that one > could get acceptable performance from a packet switch written in a HLL; the > prevous one I did was a mind-blowing kludge written in MACRO-11, whuch used > intense macrology to instantiate all N^2 packet patha in a router with N > interfaces - code also available). Which would explain why I wrote a PUP > forwarder for it, when there was no earthly operational use for it. Dave's > later draft refers to the CGW (not by name, though - merely a 'if you think > this is not feasible, we have one working'). > > Dave's draft states that the protocol families the MIT Campus Network needed > to support were CHAOS, DECNet, X.25, and IP. PUP is not mentioned (except in > passing, as one of the protocols implemented on the 'see, it can be done' > machine). This makes sense; as I mentioned, except for the CHAOS-11, no > MIT machine emitted PUPs at all. > > Noel > > PS: It's mildly irritating that Wikipedia credits Yeager for being "the > inventor of a packet-switched, "Ships in the Night", multiple-protocol > router". It was true independent co-invention; I don't think either one of us > had heard a word of what the other was doing. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history While looking around for some of those old(er) IETF lists and their predecessors, I ran across a CHM interview of Dave Clark (DDC) from 1988. [1] He goes into some detail about his Xerox Alto TCP implementation and how it influenced other TCP development at MIT. He also discusses the IAB and ICCB a bit. It turns out that there was an ICCB list that was run from BBN that was included in one of the earliest (perhaps the first) namedroppers messages. [2] The message suggests that DDC and Jon Postel may have been on that list. That may be the ?predecessor? list you?re thinking of. (I recall there were two lists, ?inarc? and ?ineng?, the latter of which eventually became the ietf list. They both may have descended from the ICCB list at BBN.) ?gregbo [1] https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2018/02/102738738-05-01-acc.pdf [2] https://marc.info/?l=namedroppers&m=95837631126143&q=mbox From gnu at toad.com Tue Jan 23 20:15:39 2024 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 23 Jan 2024 20:15:39 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32407.1706069739@hop.toad.com> Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > There seems to be a lot of material at https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/database/papers/, including inarc.pdf which is how Google got me there. > > Even more stuff up one level at https://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/database/ > > Probably this is a good time to get that material into a long-term archive. I have the Internet Archive's Archive-It.org service pulling in a copy of it now, as well as the rest of Dave's home directory. I noticed a link out from his Fuzzball page that says: "The Fuzzball archive consists of some 16 MB of source code and binaries written for the PDP11 Macro Assembler. The last update to the archive was in 1992, but it survives to the present for curious seekers." The link from "survives to the present" leads to http://malarky.udel.edu/~dmills/data/du0 which is not responding today. However, someone at Accelovation.com did a web crawl of it in 2006, and later donated it to the Internet Archive. And other crawls from Alexa and the Archive up thru 2014 exist, and are accessible in the Wayback Machine. John PS: Note, however, that there really is no such thing as a "long-term archive" for digital data. The Internet Archive's longevity premise is that their collection will be too valuable for it to get destroyed by neglect after its founders and its funding are gone. They have made two or three copies of each saved item, often on different tectonic plates, to protect against storage device failure. But it's a huge, complicated software system requiring wizards to keep it maintained. And there is no copy of the Archive under different ownership, which leaves a single point of failure. From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jan 24 05:34:43 2024 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 13:34:43 +0000 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <32407.1706069739@hop.toad.com> (John Gilmore via Internet-history's message of "Tue, 23 Jan 2024 20:15:39 -0800") References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8f8db4e4-91a3-36e6-5464-1009fc810753@gmail.com> <32407.1706069739@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <7wy1ceq2h8.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> John Gilmore wrote: > The link from "survives to the present" leads to > http://malarky.udel.edu/~dmills/data/du0 > which is not responding today. However, someone at Accelovation.com did > a web crawl of it in 2006, and later donated it to the Internet Archive. I also made a backup here a few years ago: https://github.com/pdp11/fuzzball-operating-system/ From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jan 24 12:49:53 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 12:49:53 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only known archival storage even now).?? I found my notes from the first ICCB meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a bunch of problems that needed work.?? In addition to architectural issues (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be handled, etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and how to get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA.?? I'll post that to this list.?? There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, once I remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) Meanwhile... The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, 1981 held at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting of the "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in Europe.? I've uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes.? It should be (if I got it right...) accessible to all at: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., meet 4x a year.? Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do list.? These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable operational service. As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or archive.? We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps.? The group was very small - perhaps 10 people or so.? I haven't yet found any "attendance list" but I'll keep looking.? I do remember some of the members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself.? Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob Braden, Dave Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board.? Its membership included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal Spilling (NDRE/NTARE).?? I don't remember much about the ICB; I wasn't on it.?? I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly meeting, with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on.? At the September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint announced he was leaving ARPA to join MCI. More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient hieroglyphics. Jack Haverty On 1/23/24 10:01, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > {Trying to catch up...} > > > From: Greg Skinner > > > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains > > ietf list messages from 1990. > > That is better than nothing (considering that the Web-accessible archive only > starts in 1992), but it's still leaves a _enormous_ hole: the 1st IETF (21 > attendees; held jointly held with the first InArc meeting, IIRC) was in > January, 1986 - so there's over 4 years of IETF list emails still not > available. > > I would guess that there's not one place that they'd all be available? (If > CNRI had a log file of list traffic, would they still have it accessible - > and if they had backups, do they still exist?) > > We should get some historian started on trying to track them all down - who > would be a likely target to take that monumental search on? The CHM? > > > And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used before the ietf > list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives will be an > even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not - but where > else? ISI, SRI or BBN? > > Pretty amazing that so much of the early history has been lost. At least Jon > did all the minutes, available as IENs. > > Noel -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vgcerf at gmail.com Wed Jan 24 13:11:56 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 16:11:56 -0500 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: the ICCB was not so much secretive as my simply trying to keep it small and constrained to parties who were key to leading the Internet program. I chose the name of the group to be unappealing to most people. It would serve to keep most of these lead players aware of the scope of the program and status. This was Bob Kahn's solution to my being hit by a bus. v On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:50?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only known > archival storage even now). I found my notes from the first ICCB > meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a bunch > of problems that needed work. In addition to architectural issues > (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be handled, > etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and how to > get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. > > I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some > history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it > evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA. I'll post that to this list. > There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, once I > remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) > > Meanwhile... > > The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, 1981 held > at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting of the > "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in Europe. I've > uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes. It should be (if I > got it right...) accessible to all at: > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing > > That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., meet > 4x a year. Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do > list. These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues > needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the > upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable > operational service. > > As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or archive. > We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group > was very small - perhaps 10 people or so. I haven't yet found any > "attendance list" but I'll keep looking. I do remember some of the > members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. > Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob Braden, Dave > Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. > > To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same > time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board. Its membership > included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, > e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal > Spilling (NDRE/NTARE). I don't remember much about the ICB; I wasn't > on it. I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. > > The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly meeting, > with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on. At the > September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint announced he > was leaving ARPA to join MCI. > > More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient > hieroglyphics. > > Jack Haverty > > On 1/23/24 10:01, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > {Trying to catch up...} > > > > > From: Greg Skinner > > > > > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that > contains > > > ietf list messages from 1990. > > > > That is better than nothing (considering that the Web-accessible archive > only > > starts in 1992), but it's still leaves a _enormous_ hole: the 1st IETF > (21 > > attendees; held jointly held with the first InArc meeting, IIRC) was in > > January, 1986 - so there's over 4 years of IETF list emails still not > > available. > > > > I would guess that there's not one place that they'd all be available? > (If > > CNRI had a log file of list traffic, would they still have it accessible > - > > and if they had backups, do they still exist?) > > > > We should get some historian started on trying to track them all down - > who > > would be a likely target to take that monumental search on? The CHM? > > > > > > And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used before the > ietf > > list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives will be an > > even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not - but > where > > else? ISI, SRI or BBN? > > > > Pretty amazing that so much of the early history has been lost. At least > Jon > > did all the minutes, available as IENs. > > > > Noel > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From vint at google.com Wed Jan 24 13:21:29 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 16:21:29 -0500 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: bob kahn set up ICB and asked Peter Kirstein to chair- it was to deal with international coordination as the internet emerges from the three distinct networks of the early Internet: packet radio, packet satellite (especially) and Arpanet. v On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:50?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only known > archival storage even now). I found my notes from the first ICCB > meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a bunch > of problems that needed work. In addition to architectural issues > (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be handled, > etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and how to > get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. > > I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some > history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it > evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA. I'll post that to this list. > There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, once I > remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) > > Meanwhile... > > The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, 1981 held > at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting of the > "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in Europe. I've > uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes. It should be (if I > got it right...) accessible to all at: > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing > > That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., meet > 4x a year. Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do > list. These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues > needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the > upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable > operational service. > > As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or archive. > We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group > was very small - perhaps 10 people or so. I haven't yet found any > "attendance list" but I'll keep looking. I do remember some of the > members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. > Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob Braden, Dave > Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. > > To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same > time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board. Its membership > included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, > e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal > Spilling (NDRE/NTARE). I don't remember much about the ICB; I wasn't > on it. I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. > > The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly meeting, > with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on. At the > September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint announced he > was leaving ARPA to join MCI. > > More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient > hieroglyphics. > > Jack Haverty > > On 1/23/24 10:01, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > {Trying to catch up...} > > > > > From: Greg Skinner > > > > > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that > contains > > > ietf list messages from 1990. > > > > That is better than nothing (considering that the Web-accessible archive > only > > starts in 1992), but it's still leaves a _enormous_ hole: the 1st IETF > (21 > > attendees; held jointly held with the first InArc meeting, IIRC) was in > > January, 1986 - so there's over 4 years of IETF list emails still not > > available. > > > > I would guess that there's not one place that they'd all be available? > (If > > CNRI had a log file of list traffic, would they still have it accessible > - > > and if they had backups, do they still exist?) > > > > We should get some historian started on trying to track them all down - > who > > would be a likely target to take that monumental search on? The CHM? > > > > > > And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used before the > ietf > > list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives will be an > > even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not - but > where > > else? ISI, SRI or BBN? > > > > Pretty amazing that so much of the early history has been lost. At least > Jon > > did all the minutes, available as IENs. > > > > Noel > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jan 24 13:27:56 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 13:27:56 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Yes, "unappealing" is a better characterization.? I recall a discussion at the time about the purpose of the name.? Everyone on all sorts of networking projects wanted to be at every meeting to keep up to date and get their thoughts into the discussions. "Configuration Control" carried the stench of bureaucracy and mindless paperwork, and that stench successfully repelled people. It worked, and I don't recall any bureaucracy or paperwork in the ICCB - which might partly explain the lack of historical records. It was fun, and more important than we (I at least) ever thought at the time.?? Thanks! Vint - I didn't realize MCI was a bus company........ Jack On 1/24/24 13:11, vinton cerf wrote: > the ICCB was not so much secretive as my simply trying to keep it > small and constrained to parties who were key to leading the Internet > program. I chose the name of the group to be unappealing to most people. > > It would serve to keep most of these lead players aware of the scope > of the program and status. This was Bob Kahn's solution to my being > hit by a bus. > > v > > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:50?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > > I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only > known > archival storage even now).?? I found my notes from the first ICCB > meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a > bunch > of problems that needed work.?? In addition to architectural issues > (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be > handled, > etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and > how to > get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. > > I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some > history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it > evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA.?? I'll post that to this list. > There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, > once I > remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) > > Meanwhile... > > The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, > 1981 held > at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting > of the > "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in > Europe.? I've > uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes.? It should be > (if I > got it right...) accessible to all at: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing > > That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., > meet > 4x a year.? Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do > list.? These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues > needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the > upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable > operational service. > > As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or > archive. > We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group > was very small - perhaps 10 people or so.? I haven't yet found any > "attendance list" but I'll keep looking.? I do remember some of the > members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. > Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob > Braden, Dave > Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. > > To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same > time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board.? Its > membership > included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, > e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal > Spilling (NDRE/NTARE).?? I don't remember much about the ICB; I > wasn't > on it.?? I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. > > The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly > meeting, > with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on.? > At the > September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint > announced he > was leaving ARPA to join MCI. > > More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient > hieroglyphics. > > Jack Haverty > > On 1/23/24 10:01, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > {Trying to catch up...} > > > >? ? ? > From: Greg Skinner > > > >? ? ? > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all > that contains > >? ? ? > ietf list messages from 1990. > > > > That is better than nothing (considering that the Web-accessible > archive only > > starts in 1992), but it's still leaves a _enormous_ hole: the > 1st IETF (21 > > attendees; held jointly held with the first InArc meeting, IIRC) > was in > > January, 1986 - so there's over 4 years of IETF list emails > still not > > available. > > > > I would guess that there's not one place that they'd all be > available? (If > > CNRI had a log file of list traffic, would they still have it > accessible - > > and if they had backups, do they still exist?) > > > > We should get some historian started on trying to track them all > down - who > > would be a likely target to take that monumental search on? The CHM? > > > > > > And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used > before the ietf > > list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives > will be an > > even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not > - but where > > else? ISI, SRI or BBN? > > > > Pretty amazing that so much of the early history has been lost. > At least Jon > > did all the minutes, available as IENs. > > > >? ? ? ?Noel > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From vint at google.com Wed Jan 24 13:43:58 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2024 16:43:58 -0500 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: that's the other MCI v On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 4:35?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Yes, "unappealing" is a better characterization. I recall a discussion > at the time about the purpose of the name. Everyone on all sorts of > networking projects wanted to be at every meeting to keep up to date and > get their thoughts into the discussions. "Configuration Control" carried > the stench of bureaucracy and mindless paperwork, and that stench > successfully repelled people. It worked, and I don't recall any > bureaucracy or paperwork in the ICCB - which might partly explain the > lack of historical records. It was fun, and more important than we (I at > least) ever thought at the time. Thanks! > > Vint - I didn't realize MCI was a bus company........ > > Jack > > On 1/24/24 13:11, vinton cerf wrote: > > the ICCB was not so much secretive as my simply trying to keep it > > small and constrained to parties who were key to leading the Internet > > program. I chose the name of the group to be unappealing to most people. > > > > It would serve to keep most of these lead players aware of the scope > > of the program and status. This was Bob Kahn's solution to my being > > hit by a bus. > > > > v > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 3:50?PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > > > > I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only > > known > > archival storage even now). I found my notes from the first ICCB > > meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a > > bunch > > of problems that needed work. In addition to architectural issues > > (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be > > handled, > > etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and > > how to > > get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. > > > > I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some > > history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it > > evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA. I'll post that to this list. > > There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, > > once I > > remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) > > > > Meanwhile... > > > > The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, > > 1981 held > > at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting > > of the > > "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in > > Europe. I've > > uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes. It should be > > (if I > > got it right...) accessible to all at: > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing > > > > That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., > > meet > > 4x a year. Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do > > list. These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues > > needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the > > upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable > > operational service. > > > > As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or > > archive. > > We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group > > was very small - perhaps 10 people or so. I haven't yet found any > > "attendance list" but I'll keep looking. I do remember some of the > > members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. > > Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob > > Braden, Dave > > Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. > > > > To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same > > time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board. Its > > membership > > included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, > > e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal > > Spilling (NDRE/NTARE). I don't remember much about the ICB; I > > wasn't > > on it. I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. > > > > The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly > > meeting, > > with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on. > > At the > > September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint > > announced he > > was leaving ARPA to join MCI. > > > > More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient > > hieroglyphics. > > > > Jack Haverty > > > > On 1/23/24 10:01, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > > {Trying to catch up...} > > > > > > > From: Greg Skinner > > > > > > > There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all > > that contains > > > > ietf list messages from 1990. > > > > > > That is better than nothing (considering that the Web-accessible > > archive only > > > starts in 1992), but it's still leaves a _enormous_ hole: the > > 1st IETF (21 > > > attendees; held jointly held with the first InArc meeting, IIRC) > > was in > > > January, 1986 - so there's over 4 years of IETF list emails > > still not > > > available. > > > > > > I would guess that there's not one place that they'd all be > > available? (If > > > CNRI had a log file of list traffic, would they still have it > > accessible - > > > and if they had backups, do they still exist?) > > > > > > We should get some historian started on trying to track them all > > down - who > > > would be a likely target to take that monumental search on? The > CHM? > > > > > > > > > And I'd still like to find the name of the list that was used > > before the ietf > > > list existed (the name is a start; finding any of its archives > > will be an > > > even bigger search). Would it have been at DARPA? I'd guess not > > - but where > > > else? ISI, SRI or BBN? > > > > > > Pretty amazing that so much of the early history has been lost. > > At least Jon > > > did all the minutes, available as IENs. > > > > > > Noel > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sat Jan 27 11:22:38 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sat, 27 Jan 2024 11:22:38 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives Was: google groups going away feb 22 In-Reply-To: <2438C5C0-F83C-493C-9BC8-B01388936A3F@icloud.com> References: <20240120155847.14E1A18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <001af767-5f32-47c3-b58d-b2716267051e@dcrocker.net> <2f3d87bd-ea96-4a10-bcf1-b7ae98631841@dcrocker.net> <58D57AE6-0421-4210-8F1A-97DEED932C6A@icloud.com> <9A29088A-1B75-4907-BBCA-7BEEE3FB50EF@icloud.com> <2438C5C0-F83C-493C-9BC8-B01388936A3F@icloud.com> Message-ID: <61A4014F-8067-421F-8FDD-E4D7F6126CC8@icloud.com> On Jan 20, 2024, at 3:53?PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > > On Jan 20, 2024, at 2:09?PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: >> >> >> On Jan 20, 2024, at 11:17?AM, Craig Partridge wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There is a file in the ietf-ftp directory called 1990-all that contains ietf list messages from 1990. [3] Offhand, I don?t know of any earlier complete ietf list. I hope such a list can be retrieved, because there are some things I would like to reread, such as the discussions that took place during the mid-1980s about Internet congestion that eventually led to Van Jacobson?s TCP modifications, RFCs, etc. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> Most of Van's long thoughful notes went to the End2End mailing list (though some went to the TCP-IP mailing list). I'm not close to the right computer today, but I believe I archived the key ones. As I recall, I created a "best of Van" archive for Rich Stevens when he was writing "TCP-IP Illustrated '' because in some of those notes Van sought to give readers an intuition about the dynamics he was seeing and Rich was trying to do something similar in his book. And some of Van's preliminary (aka in progress) reports on TCP improvements can be found in the meeting reports from early IETF meetings (on the IETF site). >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Craig >> >> I found a post from you in Google Groups sent to the tcp-ip list introduced with the following: [1] >> >> "Here's my collection of some of Van's notable postings. If folks have others >> they think are particularly notable, could they forward copies to me?? >> >> There was another ?best of Van? collection that I think was put together by Bob Braden taken from either the ietf or end2end lists from around 1987-1988. I thought I bookmarked it. If I find it, I?ll post a link to it. >> >> ?gregbo >> >> [1] https://groups.google.com/g/comp.protocols.tcp-ip/c/yRhIox36ot0 >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > I found some of what I was looking for. The LBNL Network Research Group (NRG) Email page [1] contains a link to the Van Jacobson Classic messages on fast recovery/retransmit [2], provided by Bob Braden. Some of the links are also available on Rich Stevens? home page. [3] > > ?gregbo > > [1] https://ee.lbl.gov/nrg-email.html > [2] https://ee.lbl.gov/tcp.html > [3] http://www.kohala.com/start/ > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history Some of the links from [3] may be broken. If so, try the links from the Internet Archive?s April 1999 snapshot of Rich Stevens? home page. [4] ?gregbo [4] https://web.archive.org/web/19990424095341/http://www.kohala.com/%7Erstevens/ From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Sun Jan 28 09:37:46 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 09:37:46 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:49?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only known archival storage even now). I found my notes from the first ICCB meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a bunch of problems that needed work. In addition to architectural issues (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be handled, etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and how to get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. > > I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA. I'll post that to this list. There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, once I remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) > > Meanwhile... > > The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, 1981 held at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting of the "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in Europe. I've uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes. It should be (if I got it right...) accessible to all at: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing > > That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., meet 4x a year. Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do list. These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable operational service. > > As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or archive. We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group was very small - perhaps 10 people or so. I haven't yet found any "attendance list" but I'll keep looking. I do remember some of the members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob Braden, Dave Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. > > To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board. Its membership included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal Spilling (NDRE/NTARE). I don't remember much about the ICB; I wasn't on it. I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. > > The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly meeting, with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on. At the September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint announced he was leaving ARPA to join MCI. > > More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient hieroglyphics. > > Jack Haverty Hmmm ? The link I posted a few days ago to the email sent by KLH (Ken Harrenstien) to namedroppers was an initial recipient list, including an entry for iccb at bbn-unix, and a comment. See below: Namedroppers: *NAMEDROPPERS.MAIL, KLH at SRI-NIC, ROODE at SRI-NIC, MILLER at SRI-NIC, DYER at SRI-NIC, JOSE at SRI-NIC, FEINLER at SRI-NIC, CHERNIKOFF at SRI-TSC, ZSU at SRI-TSC, !I believe ICCB includes Clark and Postel and some others! iccb at bbn-unix, mockapetris at isif, kirton at isif, cak at purdue, mo at lbl-csam, eric at berkeley, Taft at PARC-MAXC, dpk at brl-bmd, G.UCBCMSA=SPGGGM at Berkeley, steve%UCL-CS at USC-ISID, /usr/haverty/journals/namedroppers*@bbnq Even if iccb at bbn-unix wasn?t a more structured list (like some of others of that time period such as the tcp-ip list with wider distributions, digests, etc.), it could have been an alias, which means it could have appeared in email headers as an addressee. So I googled for iccb at bbn-unix, and a Slashdot thread from 1994 popped up about a Today Show ?What?s the Internet? segment. [1] [2] John Nagle contributed to that thread with some email he sent in 1983 about a TOPS-20 TCP bug to several addresses, including iccb at bbn-unix.arpa. I hope old lists from that time period (iccb, etc.) can be found, to see what people discussed. I?m particularly interested in any exchanges John Nagle might have had with others (such as Dave Mills) on those lists about Internet congestion. ?gregbo [1] https://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/1825243/whats-the-internet-on-1994s-today-show [2] https://youtu.be/eAV2Gjkhztg From vgcerf at gmail.com Sun Jan 28 09:48:29 2024 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sun, 28 Jan 2024 12:48:29 -0500 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Postel and Clark were certainly on the ICCB and Clark was chair. I handed off the title Internet Architect to Dave when I left ARPA in late 1982. Postel was his deputy. On Sun, Jan 28, 2024 at 12:38?PM Greg Skinner via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:49?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only known > archival storage even now). I found my notes from the first ICCB meeting, > where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a bunch of problems > that needed work. In addition to architectural issues (like what does a > host have to do, how will types of service be handled, etc.) there was also > a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and how to get rid of NCP and > replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. > > > > I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some > history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it > evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA. I'll post that to this list. > There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, once I > remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) > > > > Meanwhile... > > > > The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, 1981 held > at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting of the > "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in Europe. I've > uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes. It should be (if I > got it right...) accessible to all at: > > > > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing > > > > That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., meet > 4x a year. Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do > list. These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues > needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the > upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable operational > service. > > > > As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or archive. > We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group was > very small - perhaps 10 people or so. I haven't yet found any "attendance > list" but I'll keep looking. I do remember some of the members that I'm > sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. Others that I *think* > were on the ICCB at the time were Bob Braden, Dave Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed > Cain, and Ray McFarland. > > > > To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same > time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board. Its membership > included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, e.g., > John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal Spilling > (NDRE/NTARE). I don't remember much about the ICB; I wasn't on it. I > think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. > > > > The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly meeting, > with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on. At the > September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint announced he was > leaving ARPA to join MCI. > > > > More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient > hieroglyphics. > > > > Jack Haverty > > Hmmm ? > > The link I posted a few days ago to the email sent by KLH (Ken > Harrenstien) to namedroppers was an initial recipient list, including an > entry for iccb at bbn-unix, and a comment. See below: > > Namedroppers: > *NAMEDROPPERS.MAIL, > KLH at SRI-NIC, > ROODE at SRI-NIC, > MILLER at SRI-NIC, > DYER at SRI-NIC, > JOSE at SRI-NIC, > FEINLER at SRI-NIC, > CHERNIKOFF at SRI-TSC, > ZSU at SRI-TSC, > !I believe ICCB includes Clark and Postel and some others! > iccb at bbn-unix, > mockapetris at isif, > kirton at isif, > cak at purdue, > mo at lbl-csam, > eric at berkeley, > Taft at PARC-MAXC, > dpk at brl-bmd, > G.UCBCMSA=SPGGGM at Berkeley, > steve%UCL-CS at USC-ISID, > /usr/haverty/journals/namedroppers*@bbnq > > Even if iccb at bbn-unix wasn?t a more structured list (like some of others > of that time period such as the tcp-ip list with wider distributions, > digests, etc.), it could have been an alias, which means it could have > appeared in email headers as an addressee. So I googled for iccb at bbn-unix, > and a Slashdot thread from 1994 popped up about a Today Show ?What?s the > Internet? segment. [1] [2] John Nagle contributed to that thread with some > email he sent in 1983 about a TOPS-20 TCP bug to several addresses, > including iccb at bbn-unix.arpa. > > I hope old lists from that time period (iccb, etc.) can be found, to see > what people discussed. I?m particularly interested in any exchanges John > Nagle might have had with others (such as Dave Mills) on those lists about > Internet congestion. > > ?gregbo > > [1] > https://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/1825243/whats-the-internet-on-1994s-today-show > [2] https://youtu.be/eAV2Gjkhztg > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Mon Jan 29 21:49:02 2024 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Mon, 29 Jan 2024 21:49:02 -0800 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 (Xerox Alto TCP and the ICCB) In-Reply-To: References: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B4013F0-423B-4148-B7A0-A934DF16BD52@icloud.com> Message-ID: <9A2D491D-EC39-4B60-8134-5C606F291173@icloud.com> On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:57?PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > >>> When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of >>> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it included >>> Nova-based PUP "gateways" >> >> Umm, no. I cannot speak with certainty about what Stanford and CMU got, but I >> can say with great certainty that all that MIT got was several UNIBUS >> Experimental Ethernet cards: >> >> https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_Experimental_Ethernet_interface >> >> I believe, from scraps I heard about what happened at Stanford and CMU, that >> it was the same there. > > The attached text describes the first year of the Xerox University Grant, > or at least what was offered. > > -- > https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org > While poking around the saildart.org site, I found a debate between Mark Crispin (MRC) and John Seamons regarding Altos, PUP, and a few other things (including a criticism by MRC that IP addresses allowed only eight bits of network at that time). [1] For what it's worth, here is the Cringely article about ?Ships in the Night? multiprotocol routers and more mention of Altos and PUP at a meeting at Xerox PARC in October 1979. [2] [3] ?gregbo [1] https://www.saildart.org/ETHER.MSG%5B1,LES%5D1 [2] https://web.archive.org/web/20071011154314/https://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/1998/pulpit_19981210_000593.html [3] https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien126.txt From vint at google.com Tue Jan 30 01:56:28 2024 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 04:56:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 50, Issue 6 (Xerox Alto TCP and the ICCB) In-Reply-To: <9A2D491D-EC39-4B60-8134-5C606F291173@icloud.com> References: <20240111171434.A6A1A18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9B4013F0-423B-4148-B7A0-A934DF16BD52@icloud.com> <9A2D491D-EC39-4B60-8134-5C606F291173@icloud.com> Message-ID: of course, at the time, the project was an experiment to see if it could be done at all...we hacked around with A,B,C,D,E address interpretation and eventually developed IPv6 but this is still far less implemented than need be. We really need the additional space. v On Tue, Jan 30, 2024 at 12:49?AM Greg Skinner via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:57?PM, Larry Masinter wrote: > > > >>> When Xerox gave Alto/Ethernet/Dover/PUP systems to a number of > >>> universities (Stanford, MIT, CMU, CalTech, Rochester), I think it > included > >>> Nova-based PUP "gateways" > >> > >> Umm, no. I cannot speak with certainty about what Stanford and CMU got, > but I > >> can say with great certainty that all that MIT got was several UNIBUS > >> Experimental Ethernet cards: > >> > >> https://gunkies.org/wiki/UNIBUS_Experimental_Ethernet_interface > >> > >> I believe, from scraps I heard about what happened at Stanford and CMU, > that > >> it was the same there. > > > > The attached text describes the first year of the Xerox University Grant, > > or at least what was offered. > > > > -- > > https://LarryMasinter.net https://interlisp.org > > > > While poking around the saildart.org site, I found > a debate between Mark Crispin (MRC) and John Seamons regarding Altos, PUP, > and a few other things (including a criticism by MRC that IP addresses > allowed only eight bits of network at that time). [1] > > For what it's worth, here is the Cringely article about ?Ships in the > Night? multiprotocol routers and more mention of Altos and PUP at a meeting > at Xerox PARC in October 1979. [2] [3] > > ?gregbo > > [1] https://www.saildart.org/ETHER.MSG%5B1,LES%5D1 > [2] > https://web.archive.org/web/20071011154314/https://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/1998/pulpit_19981210_000593.html > [3] https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien126.txt > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jan 30 10:07:55 2024 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2024 10:07:55 -0800 Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <44941336-97cc-4b80-ab76-fb7abc8d1e45@3kitty.org> Well, I can't remember doing it, but setting up iccb at bbn-unix sounds like something I would have done.? It was almost certainly just a distribution list, with no archive.? So any mail sent to iccb at bbn.unix would have been sent to all the mailboxes configured onto that list at the time, which could have been local to BBN, or anywhere else on the Internet. The "/usr/haverty/journals/namedroppers*@bbnq" probably was an archive file for namedroppers, in my home directory on BBNQ (we had a lot of small Unix systems at that time).? I don't remember that there was any archiving scheme for those machines, or whether any tapes from that long ago would survive.? But maybe somewhere in some basement or attic... Jack On 1/28/24 09:37, Greg Skinner wrote: > On Jan 24, 2024, at 12:49?PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> I spelunked through some of my old notebooks (paper being the only known archival storage even now). I found my notes from the first ICCB meeting, where Vint explained what the group would do and listed a bunch of problems that needed work. In addition to architectural issues (like what does a host have to do, how will types of service be handled, etc.) there was also a focus on the "January 1983" Internet, and how to get rid of NCP and replace it with TCP throughout the Arpanet. >> >> I'm going to go through more of the notes and try to reconstruct some history of the ICCB, why it was so secretive, what it did, and how it evolved as Vint decided to leave ARPA. I'll post that to this list. There's a lot of acronyms in my notes that need to be explained, once I remember what they mean (anyone know what NAAP was?) >> >> Meanwhile... >> >> The ICCB was formed and had its first meeting on September 21, 1981 held at University College London just prior to the quarterly meeting of the "Internet Project" which typically had its fall meeting in Europe. I've uploaded to Google Drive the first page of my notes. It should be (if I got it right...) accessible to all at: >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1C5Q3b8vK_90l2rQvgieI58l6UKfM3CX8/view?usp=sharing >> >> That page starts with the pragmatics of the new ICCB group, e.g., meet 4x a year. Then it lists "Problems" on the newly-formed ICCB's to-do list. These fell into two broad categories: 1) architectural issues needing research and 2) short-term pragmatic requirements such as the upcoming NCP->TCP transition and making the Internet a reliable operational service. >> >> As far as I remember, there wasn't any "ICCB" mailing list or archive. We all just kept our own address list using our mail apps. The group was very small - perhaps 10 people or so. I haven't yet found any "attendance list" but I'll keep looking. I do remember some of the members that I'm sure of - Vint, Jon Postel, Dave Clark, and myself. Others that I *think* were on the ICCB at the time were Bob Braden, Dave Mills, Jim Mathis, Ed Cain, and Ray McFarland. >> >> To avoid confusion now... there was another group formed at the same time called the "ICB" - International Cooperation Board. Its membership included some of the ICCB members plus members from outside the US, e.g., John Laws (RSRE) and Peter Kirstein (UCL) and perhaps also Paal Spilling (NDRE/NTARE). I don't remember much about the ICB; I wasn't on it. I think Peter Kirstein was the Chair. >> >> The ICCB continued meeting a day before each Internet quarterly meeting, with a changing (and growing) list of problems to be worked on. At the September 1982 meeting held at DFVLR outside Munich, Vint announced he was leaving ARPA to join MCI. >> >> More spelunking to do.... I'll post more when I decipher my ancient hieroglyphics. >> >> Jack Haverty > Hmmm ? > > The link I posted a few days ago to the email sent by KLH (Ken Harrenstien) to namedroppers was an initial recipient list, including an entry for iccb at bbn-unix, and a comment. See below: > > Namedroppers: > *NAMEDROPPERS.MAIL, > KLH at SRI-NIC, > ROODE at SRI-NIC, > MILLER at SRI-NIC, > DYER at SRI-NIC, > JOSE at SRI-NIC, > FEINLER at SRI-NIC, > CHERNIKOFF at SRI-TSC, > ZSU at SRI-TSC, > !I believe ICCB includes Clark and Postel and some others! > iccb at bbn-unix, > mockapetris at isif, > kirton at isif, > cak at purdue, > mo at lbl-csam, > eric at berkeley, > Taft at PARC-MAXC, > dpk at brl-bmd, > G.UCBCMSA=SPGGGM at Berkeley, > steve%UCL-CS at USC-ISID, > mo > > Even if iccb at bbn-unix wasn?t a more structured list (like some of others of that time period such as the tcp-ip list with wider distributions, digests, etc.), it could have been an alias, which means it could have appeared in email headers as an addressee. So I googled for iccb at bbn-unix, and a Slashdot thread from 1994 popped up about a Today Show ?What?s the Internet? segment. [1] [2] John Nagle contributed to that thread with some email he sent in 1983 about a TOPS-20 TCP bug to several addresses, includingiccb at bbn-unix.arpa. > > I hope old lists from that time period (iccb, etc.) can be found, to see what people discussed. I?m particularly interested in any exchanges John Nagle might have had with others (such as Dave Mills) on those lists about Internet congestion. > > ?gregbo > > [1]https://tech.slashdot.org/story/11/02/01/1825243/whats-the-internet-on-1994s-today-show > [2]https://youtu.be/eAV2Gjkhztg > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: OpenPGP_signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 665 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jan 31 15:12:50 2024 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2024 23:12:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Really old list archives In-Reply-To: <44941336-97cc-4b80-ab76-fb7abc8d1e45@3kitty.org> References: <20240123180127.44F3618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <44941336-97cc-4b80-ab76-fb7abc8d1e45@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <735193945.3725005.1706742770179@mail.yahoo.com> Trimmed what I included from other people in hopes this email won't get rejected. While searching for something else in my garage today I found a couple items regarding EGP.? One is a message from Dave Mills (mills at dcn6) with a subject of "Revised EGP model clarified and discussed".? ?It was sent to egp-people at bbnu and cc to iccb at bbnu. The received line on the header to me says bbn-unix received it from? dcn6.arpa and the sri-kl.arpa got it from bbnccq.? Interesting mix of naming.? BTW the sri-kl info indicates it came with TCP.? ?This email was dated May 2, 1984 if interested. Perhaps people should be looking for bbnu as well. The second EGP item is entitled Notes on the EGP' design meeting (no date on my copy or author ). This is actually very detailed. If anyone wants me to do more with these items,? let me know. barbara On Tuesday, January 30, 2024 at 10:08:13 AM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Well, I can't remember doing it, but setting up iccb at bbn-unix sounds like something I would have done.? It was almost certainly just a distribution list, with no archive.? So any mail sent to iccb at bbn.unix would have been sent to all the mailboxes configured onto that list at the time, which could have been local to BBN, or anywhere else on the Internet. The "/usr/haverty/journals/namedroppers*@bbnq" probably was an archive file for namedroppers, in my home directory on BBNQ (we had a lot of small Unix systems at that time).? I don't remember that there was any archiving scheme for those machines, or whether any tapes from that long ago would survive.? But maybe somewhere in some basement or attic... Jack