From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Tue Oct 3 21:34:57 2023 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2023 21:34:57 -0700 Subject: [ih] Hauben, R. (1998). A study of the ARPANET TCP/IP Digest and of the role of online communication in the transition from the ARPANET to the Internet. In-Reply-To: <7e67380d-d13f-6bdd-d6c5-701fb1719b3a@meetinghouse.net> References: <556CDFAE-6604-4FCD-9D83-8C3373DA0E7D@gmail.com> <7e67380d-d13f-6bdd-d6c5-701fb1719b3a@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <3EEDFF19-085A-43D7-A26B-8ECEE324E136@icloud.com> FYI, in case anyone had trouble accessing Ronda Hauben?s study, visit the footnote below. [1] Also, I?d like to point out, in light of the 40th anniversary of the ARPANET/MILNET logical split (4 October 1983), the study contains some of the difficulties Mike Muuss [2] experienced after the split took place. There were quite a few problems with routing that affected other services, such as email. Others, even Jake Feinler, contributed to the discussion. [3] [1] http://www.columbia.edu/~rh120/other/tcpdigest_paper.txt [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Muuss [3] https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/museum/tcp-ip-digest/tcp-ip-digest.v2n18.1 ?gregbo gregskinner0 at icloud.com From dave.taht at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 08:05:05 2023 From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 08:05:05 -0700 Subject: [ih] new mailing list for network neutrality and title ii regulation Message-ID: With the resumption of discussions for new regulations for the internet as of oct 19th - per https://www.fcc.gov/document/fcc-chairwoman-rosenworcels-net-neutrality-remarks I decided to start a good ole fashioned new discussion list to try and sort out what it all meant: https://lists.bufferbloat.net/listinfo/nnagain I am always interested in learning from the y'all here to (positively?) affect the future of the Net, if possible. (PS my starlink list is often interesting) -- Oct 30: https://netdevconf.info/0x17/news/the-maestro-and-the-music-bof.html Dave T?ht CSO, LibreQos From geoff at iconia.com Wed Oct 11 14:45:18 2023 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 14:45:18 -0700 Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?Ending_Saint_Helena=E2=80=99s_Exile_from_the_Inte?= =?utf-8?q?rnet_=28Doug_Madory=29?= Message-ID: EXCERPT: Summary Just after midnight on October 1, 2023, the remote island of Saint Helena in the South Atlantic began passing internet traffic over its long-awaited, first-ever submarine cable connection. In this blog post, we cover how Kentik?s measurements captured this historic activation, as well as the epic story of the advocacy work it took to make this development possible. ------------------------------ Just after midnight on October 1, 2023, the remote island of Saint Helena in the South Atlantic began passing internet traffic over its long-awaited, first-ever submarine cable connection. Hours later, I published the first evidence of the submarine cable activation, continuing a practice of mine which has included the reporting the activations of the ALBA-1 cable connecting Cuba to Venezuela, the Tonga Cable in the South Pacific, and Kerch Strait cable connecting Crimea to mainland Russia. If you?ve ever heard of Saint Helena, it might be due to its role as the final place of exile for Napoleon Bonaparte, beginning in 1815. Up until a couple of weeks ago, the 5,300 residents of this British overseas territory lived in an updated form of exile: from the benefits of high-speed internet access which define modern society. In this blog post, I cover how Kentik?s measurements captured this historic activation, as well as the epic story of the advocacy work it took to make this development possible... [...] https://www.kentik.com/blog/ending-saint-helenas-exile-from-the-internet/ -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Wed Oct 11 17:00:41 2023 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2023 17:00:41 -0700 Subject: [ih] historical barriers to equality for women in internetworking Message-ID: <1A41D4D9-3735-4274-B530-8C0E02F68C0E@icloud.com> Some of you may have seen the results of the recent research done to understand issues women face who participate in the IETF. [1] In the process of searching for flag day experiences, I found a report published in February 1983 that, in a similar manner, discusses barriers to equality faced by some female grad students and staff members of MIT?s Artificial Intelligence and Computer Science labs. [2] Deborah Estrin, Liza Martin, and Karen Sollins contributed to this report. ?gregbo [1] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Experience_of_Women_Participating_in_the_IETF.pdf [2] https://dome.mit.edu/handle/1721.3/196182 From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Oct 11 18:23:37 2023 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 14:23:37 +1300 Subject: [ih] historical barriers to equality for women in internetworking In-Reply-To: <1A41D4D9-3735-4274-B530-8C0E02F68C0E@icloud.com> References: <1A41D4D9-3735-4274-B530-8C0E02F68C0E@icloud.com> Message-ID: On 12-Oct-23 13:00, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > Some of you may have seen the results of the recent research done to understand issues women face who participate in the IETF. [1] In the process of searching for flag day experiences, I found a report published in February 1983 that, in a similar manner, discusses barriers to equality faced by some female grad students and staff members of MIT?s Artificial Intelligence and Computer Science labs. [2] Deborah Estrin, Liza Martin, and Karen Sollins contributed to this report. A great find, Greg. It would be fascinating to know how the authors feel about it today. Women in IT is a field of study in its own right, e.g. a couple of references from one of my own publications: 24. T. Haigh, ?Masculinity and the machine man: Gender in the history of data processing,? in Gender Codes: Why Women Are Leaving Computing, T. J. Misa Ed., Hoboken, NJ, USA: Wiley, 2010. 25. J. Abbate, Recoding Gender: Women?s Changing Participation in Computing. Cambridge, MA, USA: MIT Press, 2012. Brian > > ?gregbo > > [1] https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Experience_of_Women_Participating_in_the_IETF.pdf > > [2] https://dome.mit.edu/handle/1721.3/196182 > From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Thu Oct 12 12:54:49 2023 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2023 15:54:49 -0400 Subject: [ih] historical barriers to equality for women in internetworking In-Reply-To: References: <1A41D4D9-3735-4274-B530-8C0E02F68C0E@icloud.com> Message-ID: It strikes me that the entire paper can be summarized in this excerpt: *"Many individuals spoke of encounters observed where IETF behavior has been very combative and aggressive during working group discussions, which makes it harder to go up to the microphone and contribute since there is fear of getting shouted at. No one interviewed had personal experience of being shouted at but many said it took a lot of courage to get up and speak, or they just resorted to contributing via mailing lists. Several individuals mentioned that these observed aggressive encounters triggered other diversity elements. These can factor into how they as an individual respond (or shy away from) discussion, and relate to cultural norms or an upbringing where you wait for your turn to speak. In some more aggressive dialogue encounters, waiting for your turn to speak means you never get a voice." What was missing were specific comments from some of the (few) women who've been attending IETF from the early days. I kind of wonder if what it comes down to is that IETF (and the industry in general) is a place for strong personalities & super-competent people - and that underlying all the push for DEI is really an intent to make the place more accommodating to those who can't give as well as they get. Maybe my sample is somewhat select - MIT, BBN, a few places of similar caliber - but all of the women engineers I've worked with (and a few program officers, managers, executives) - have been exceptionally competent, and about as far from pushovers as you can get (the word "badass" comes to mind).? If anything, it seems like having to be the best in the room, to be taken seriously, has worked to their advantage. I wonder - to the female "Internet old farts" on this list - what's your take?? Do we really need to make IETF, and the industry, kinder and gentler, to accomodate newcomers - or should be we concentrating on toughening people up, in general?? Or something else? Miles Fidelman * ** * * Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > On 12-Oct-23 13:00, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: >> Some of you may have seen the results of the recent research done to >> understand issues women face who participate in the IETF. [1] In the >> process of searching for flag day experiences, I found a report >> published in February 1983 that, in a similar manner, discusses >> barriers to equality faced by some female grad students and staff >> members of MIT?s Artificial Intelligence and Computer Science labs. >> [2]? Deborah Estrin, Liza Martin, and Karen Sollins contributed to >> this report. > > A great find, Greg. It would be fascinating to know how the authors > feel about it today. > > Women in IT is a field of study in its own right, e.g. a couple of > references from one of my own publications: > > 24. T. Haigh, ?Masculinity and the machine man: Gender in the history > of data processing,? in Gender Codes: Why Women Are Leaving Computing, > T. J. Misa Ed., Hoboken, NJ, USA: Wiley, 2010. > > 25. J. Abbate, Recoding Gender: Women?s Changing Participation in > Computing. Cambridge, MA, USA: MIT > Press, 2012. > > ?? Brian > >> >> ?gregbo >> >> [1] >> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/Experience_of_Women_Participating_in_the_IETF.pdf >> >> [2] https://dome.mit.edu/handle/1721.3/196182 >> -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From johnl at iecc.com Thu Oct 12 16:18:35 2023 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 12 Oct 2023 19:18:35 -0400 Subject: [ih] historical barriers to equality for women in internetworking In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20231012231836.366E83638C9B@ary.local> It appears that Miles Fidelman via Internet-history said: >I kind of wonder if what it comes down to is that IETF (and the industry >in general) is a place for strong personalities & super-competent people >- and that underlying all the push for DEI is really an intent to make >the place more accommodating to those who can't give as well as they get. The IETF has plenty of people who believe themselves to be super-competent, and way too many who cannot tell the difference between having strong opinions and acting like an asshole. I happen to be on my way home from a M3AAWG meeting. In its early days M3 had a frat boy culture not altogether unfamiler to people who've been in the IETF. A few years later the leadership decided that was not good, made some straightforward rules about treating people with respect, and sent home a few guys who were unwilling or unable to get with the program. You know what? It works great. I'd say it's about 40% women, both among the people who come and the leadership, and the women are just as effective as the men. There are plenty of strong opinions and arguments, but everyone knows to stay on the right side of the line between advocacy and ad hominem. There are a lot of people who go to both IETF and M3, both old timers and younger ones, and I would be surprised if any of us found the behavior standards to hinder getting work done. R's, John PS: This doesn't mean that I agree with what Corinne claims. I like her but she sure had opinions about what she would find and by golly she found it. From geoff at iconia.com Tue Oct 24 11:22:40 2023 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2023 11:22:40 -0700 Subject: [ih] Brendan Carr: "Six years ago, Americans lived through one of the greatest hoaxes in regulatory history... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ??https://twitter.com/BrendanCarrFCC/status/1716558844384379163 -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True