From tracyhackshaw at gmail.com  Fri May  5 14:23:42 2023
From: tracyhackshaw at gmail.com (Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 23:23:42 +0200
Subject: [ih] "The Secret History of the Internet"
Message-ID: <CAC0JwGMQc-hzciRoRQQxDCO4y-VHsiq1-UEdtBw1wWGCiVX3+A@mail.gmail.com>

This https://youtu.be/3TzOkOCjFx0

is the "prequel" to ICANN & the 7 Keys to the Internet -
https://youtu.be/26WvISI14g0


From vgcerf at gmail.com  Fri May  5 19:31:53 2023
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Fri, 5 May 2023 22:31:53 -0400
Subject: [ih] "The Secret History of the Internet"
In-Reply-To: <CAC0JwGMQc-hzciRoRQQxDCO4y-VHsiq1-UEdtBw1wWGCiVX3+A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0JwGMQc-hzciRoRQQxDCO4y-VHsiq1-UEdtBw1wWGCiVX3+A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_VdtuskK0nkaJeiLFRub8srnKfD3H4p8_B5C3eeu1qxmg@mail.gmail.com>

although they get a few things a bit twisted, their enthusiasm is
infectious and the "IP on Everything" T-shirts were a great surprise. I had
not seen this episode before.

vint


On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 5:24?PM Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> This https://youtu.be/3TzOkOCjFx0
>
> is the "prequel" to ICANN & the 7 Keys to the Internet -
> https://youtu.be/26WvISI14g0
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From geoff at iconia.com  Mon May  8 07:51:02 2023
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 07:51:02 -0700
Subject: [ih] LunaNet: 5G players debate an Internet for the moon
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrhAmOgHu-se=HpXfZ-Pb5_c4GDFDgqxMbYG2CPLbRJLkg@mail.gmail.com>

??
https://www.lightreading.com/satellite/lunanet-5g-players-debate-internet-for-moon/d/d-id/784745

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Mon May  8 15:41:24 2023
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Mon, 8 May 2023 17:41:24 -0500
Subject: [ih] LunaNet: 5G players debate an Internet for the moon
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrhAmOgHu-se=HpXfZ-Pb5_c4GDFDgqxMbYG2CPLbRJLkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrhAmOgHu-se=HpXfZ-Pb5_c4GDFDgqxMbYG2CPLbRJLkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7C8E2D07-F42A-4ACF-9410-0E00F22AD1AB@gmail.com>


IM present here ;-)

Regards
-Jorge

> On May 8, 2023, at 09:52, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> ???
> https://www.lightreading.com/satellite/lunanet-5g-players-debate-internet-for-moon/d/d-id/784745
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Tue May  9 03:10:56 2023
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Tue, 9 May 2023 05:10:56 -0500
Subject: [ih] "The Secret History of the Internet"
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VdtuskK0nkaJeiLFRub8srnKfD3H4p8_B5C3eeu1qxmg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAC0JwGMQc-hzciRoRQQxDCO4y-VHsiq1-UEdtBw1wWGCiVX3+A@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VdtuskK0nkaJeiLFRub8srnKfD3H4p8_B5C3eeu1qxmg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMzo+1YyoDwgu3zKm7v0zok+WmVBAafZSKhsHzO2mddnUB_OXQ@mail.gmail.com>

They should get one of this :-)
https://www.zazzle.com/let_it_bundle_t_shirt-256520875260383039

-J


On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 9:32?PM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> although they get a few things a bit twisted, their enthusiasm is
> infectious and the "IP on Everything" T-shirts were a great surprise. I had
> not seen this episode before.
>
> vint
>
>
> On Fri, May 5, 2023 at 5:24?PM Tracy F. Hackshaw @ Google via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > This https://youtu.be/3TzOkOCjFx0
> >
> > is the "prequel" to ICANN & the 7 Keys to the Internet -
> > https://youtu.be/26WvISI14g0
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed May 10 15:57:49 2023
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 10:57:49 +1200
Subject: [ih] Fwd: [SIGCIS-Members] Forum on Histories of the Internet -
 FINAL CALL for Abstracts of Proposed Papers
In-Reply-To: <0b6f01d9836a$01b37350$051a59f0$@abram.co>
References: <0b6f01d9836a$01b37350$051a59f0$@abram.co>
Message-ID: <d9bec8e8-341a-1aa8-6efc-476ec4f00b6f@gmail.com>

-------- Forwarded Message --------
Subject: 	[SIGCIS-Members] Forum on Histories of the Internet - FINAL CALL for Abstracts of Proposed Papers
Date: 	Wed, 10 May 2023 19:05:29 +0100
From: 	tom--- via Members <members at lists.sigcis.org>
Reply-To: 	tom at abram.co
To: 	members at lists.sigcis.org
CC: 	tommabram at gmail.com



*Archives of IT is organising a one-day academic-practitioner forum on the Histories of the Internet in January 2024 and we are now looking for proposals for papers and discussions. *

**

*Deadline for Proposed Abstracts is 9am, Monday 29 May**
*
The forum will be hosted at the Livery Hall of the Worshipful Company of Information Technologists in Central London with space for 50 participants and the opportunity for more to join online.
  ?It would be great if you would be personally interested in participating and we hope you could share this information with your network and alert anyone you think would benefit from the opportunity to propose a session.

*More about the Forum
*The forum is designed to:

? foster more critical, multidisciplinary perspectives on the history of computers, telecommunications, the internet, and related digital media;
? illuminate how people, policies, initiatives and other social factors have shaped and are shaping technological developments;
? feature talks and panels identifying a variety of competing perspectives on innovations or other key events in the history of information and communication technologies

*Calling for Abstracts of Proposed Papers**
*We are now calling for abstracts of proposed papers that will bring together the insights gained from historical perspectives on the internet technologies and applications in education, civil society, business, industry, politics and government.

Their aim will be to explore what can be learned from these histories and how historical perspectives can support future research, policy and practice for a network society.

*Abstracts of proposed papers should be between 300-600 words and sent to
**forum at archivesit.org.uk <mailto:forum at archivesit.org.uk>**.?The deadline is 9am, Monday 29 May.**
*
Those whose abstracts of proposed papers are accepted will be asked to provide a full paper, between 3,000 to 7,000 words, a month before the event.

Click here for *Full details about the AIT Forum <https://archivesit.org.uk/ait-forum-on-the-histories-of-the-internet-call-for-papers/>*

*Tom Abram*

*Director ? Archives of IT*

research at archivesit.org.uk <mailto:research at archivesit.org.uk>

*www.archivesit.org.uk* <http://www.archivesit.org.uk/>

*> Subscribe <https://archivesit.org.uk/sign-up/> *to?our e-newsletter

*> *Follow us on Twitter *@ArchivesIT* <https://twitter.com/ArchivesIT>
*> *Please support us at *https://archivesit.org.uk/get-involved-4/make-a-difference/ <https://archivesit.org.uk/get-involved-4/make-a-difference/>*

Registered Charity No: 1164198


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From woody at pch.net  Thu May 11 00:41:18 2023
From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 09:41:18 +0200
Subject: [ih] Public archive of early IXP establishment primary sources
Message-ID: <6CFA876B-27A2-4BA4-9B30-97EEEB949936@pch.net>

Hi.  PCH has been supporting a couple of historian-of-technology / archivist folks to build an indexed public archive of primary sources relating to the establishment of early IXPs.  It?s all going into the Internet Archive, and a couple of other public archives, so anyone will be able to refer to it in the future.

We?ve had quite a bit of help from other folks who were participating at the time, but more sources and participation always makes for a better result, so I?m soliciting all of you who may have old emails or meeting transcripts or other documents, or know where there are public records or press clippings that pertain to early IXPs.  They are, of course, focusing principally on the 1992-1996 timeframe, but there are ?early IXPs? in every region?  for instance, IXPs started reaching the Caribbean mostly in 2011-2015.  Eventually we?d like to see documentation of the establishment of every IXP, if interest in the project continues.

So, if any of you are able to help, please contact me, and I?ll put you in touch, or you can contact Sharon Healy, the project lead, directly at <schealy.ire at gmail.com>.

Thanks!

                                -Bill



From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Thu May 11 09:25:02 2023
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 16:25:02 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Public archive of early IXP establishment primary sources
In-Reply-To: <6CFA876B-27A2-4BA4-9B30-97EEEB949936@pch.net>
References: <6CFA876B-27A2-4BA4-9B30-97EEEB949936@pch.net>
Message-ID: <501083606.634076.1683822302173@mail.yahoo.com>

 Do you know if you have had any contact with Allison Mankin, perhaps Bob Lindall, or any of the other folks on Dartnet, especially from ISI? I was on DARTnet but ISI was responsible for the testbed infrastructure. There also may have had some interaction with PSInet but that thought is low probability.? I think that is when I first heard about the formation of mae east and west, etc.?
barbara
    On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 12:41:36 AM PDT, Bill Woodcock via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 Hi.? PCH has been supporting a couple of historian-of-technology / archivist folks to build an indexed public archive of primary sources relating to the establishment of early IXPs.? It?s all going into the Internet Archive, and a couple of other public archives, so anyone will be able to refer to it in the future.

We?ve had quite a bit of help from other folks who were participating at the time, but more sources and participation always makes for a better result, so I?m soliciting all of you who may have old emails or meeting transcripts or other documents, or know where there are public records or press clippings that pertain to early IXPs.? They are, of course, focusing principally on the 1992-1996 timeframe, but there are ?early IXPs? in every region?? for instance, IXPs started reaching the Caribbean mostly in 2011-2015.? Eventually we?d like to see documentation of the establishment of every IXP, if interest in the project continues.

So, if any of you are able to help, please contact me, and I?ll put you in touch, or you can contact Sharon Healy, the project lead, directly at <schealy.ire at gmail.com>.

Thanks!

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Bill

-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Thu May 11 10:08:06 2023
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Thu, 11 May 2023 17:08:06 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Public archive of early IXP establishment primary sources
In-Reply-To: <E7601574-BB26-461F-953E-3DB3B48CF6D6@pch.net>
References: <6CFA876B-27A2-4BA4-9B30-97EEEB949936@pch.net>
 <501083606.634076.1683822302173@mail.yahoo.com>
 <E7601574-BB26-461F-953E-3DB3B48CF6D6@pch.net>
Message-ID: <1066613156.1060484.1683824886202@mail.yahoo.com>

 I think ican help with getting an email address for Bob.? He is no longer at ISI.
Small chance I might be able to get some info for anything happening around Panama.? Not clear though.?
barbara
    On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 10:03:34 AM PDT, Bill Woodcock <woody at pch.net> wrote:  
 
 Funny coincidence, that?? :-)

I?ll have a chat with Allison.? I don?t know Bob.? I should check in with Celeste Anderson?? she helped us quite a bit in getting the LA-area exchanges up and running.

? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Bill



> On May 11, 2023, at 6:25 PM, Barbara Denny <b_a_denny at yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Do you know if you have had any contact with Allison Mankin, perhaps Bob Lindall, or any of the other folks on Dartnet, especially from ISI? I was on DARTnet but ISI was responsible for the testbed infrastructure. There also may have had some interaction with PSInet but that thought is low probability.? I think that is when I first heard about the formation of mae east and west, etc. 
> 
> barbara
> 
>> On Thursday, May 11, 2023 at 12:41:36 AM PDT, Bill Woodcock via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: 
>> 
>> Hi.? PCH has been supporting a couple of historian-of-technology / archivist folks to build an indexed public archive of primary sources relating to the establishment of early IXPs.? It?s all going into the Internet Archive, and a couple of other public archives, so anyone will be able to refer to it in the future.
>> 
>> We?ve had quite a bit of help from other folks who were participating at the time, but more sources and participation always makes for a better result, so I?m soliciting all of you who may have old emails or meeting transcripts or other documents, or know where there are public records or press clippings that pertain to early IXPs.? They are, of course, focusing principally on the 1992-1996 timeframe, but there are ?early IXPs? in every region?? for instance, IXPs started reaching the Caribbean mostly in 2011-2015.? Eventually we?d like to see documentation of the establishment of every IXP, if interest in the project continues.
>> 
>> So, if any of you are able to help, please contact me, and I?ll put you in touch, or you can contact Sharon Healy, the project lead, directly at <schealy.ire at gmail.com>.
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -Bill
  

From geoff at iconia.com  Tue May 30 16:17:00 2023
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 16:17:00 -0700
Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
	=?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>

EXCERPT:

In a recent workshop, I attended, reflecting on the evolution of the
Internet over the past 40 years, one of the takeaways for me is how we?ve
managed to surprise ourselves in both the unanticipated successes we?ve
encountered and in the instances of failure when technology has stubbornly
resisted to be deployed despite our confident expectations to the contrary!
What have we learned from these lessons about our inability to predict
technology outcomes? Are the issues related to the aspects of the
technology? Are they embedded in the considerations behind the expectations
about how a technology will be adopted? Or do the primary issues reside at
a deeper level relating to economic and even political contexts? Let?s look
at this question of failed expectations using several specific examples
drawn from the last 40 years of the Internet?s evolution.

*The Public Debut of the Internet (and the demise of O.S.I.)*...

[...]
https://circleid.com/posts/20230524-failed-expectations-a-deep-dive-into-the-internets-40-years-of-evolution

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From dave.taht at gmail.com  Tue May 30 16:23:03 2023
From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht)
Date: Tue, 30 May 2023 17:23:03 -0600
Subject: [ih] 
	=?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
	=?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:17?PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> EXCERPT:
>
> In a recent workshop, I attended, reflecting on the evolution of the
> Internet over the past 40 years, one of the takeaways for me is how we?ve
> managed to surprise ourselves in both the unanticipated successes we?ve
> encountered and in the instances of failure when technology has stubbornly
> resisted to be deployed despite our confident expectations to the contrary!
> What have we learned from these lessons about our inability to predict
> technology outcomes? Are the issues related to the aspects of the
> technology? Are they embedded in the considerations behind the expectations
> about how a technology will be adopted? Or do the primary issues reside at
> a deeper level relating to economic and even political contexts? Let?s look
> at this question of failed expectations using several specific examples
> drawn from the last 40 years of the Internet?s evolution.
>
> *The Public Debut of the Internet (and the demise of O.S.I.)*...
>
> [...]
> https://circleid.com/posts/20230524-failed-expectations-a-deep-dive-into-the-internets-40-years-of-evolution

hilariously I was also within seconds of posting this. Larry lurks on
my starlink mailing list... adding to cc.

>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



-- 
Podcast: https://www.linkedin.com/feed/update/urn:li:activity:7058793910227111937/
Dave T?ht CSO, LibreQos


From karl at cavebear.com  Wed May 31 12:30:36 2023
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 12:30:36 -0700
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
In-Reply-To: <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>

One of my own observations is how we institutionalize our techno-dislikes.

ISO/OSI was indeed a disaster, largely self inflicted.

But it did contain a lot of good ideas.? And we've tended to put 
distance between the Internet of today and those good ideas.

My own hobby-horses about things we could have pulled from the OSI 
carcass are these:

 ? - A much better checksum algorithm.? (The OSI Fletcher checksum looks 
scary but there are ways to compute, anew and incrementally, it that are 
fast and use only standard 2s complement arithmetic. And it can catch 
byte reversals that are common when someone forgets to put a hton*() in 
their code.)

 ?- An association (session) layer.? This would have made mobility much 
easier by allowing an "association" to span multiple transport 
connections as devices move and change their IP addresses.? It also 
could have reduced the web's addiction to cookies. (OSI made the mistake 
of making their session layer excessively complicated,? incomprehensibly 
documented, and never explaining what it was good for.)

 ??? --karl--

On 5/30/23 4:23 PM, Dave Taht via Internet-history wrote:
> On Tue, May 30, 2023 at 5:17?PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> EXCERPT:
>>
>> In a recent workshop, I attended, reflecting on the evolution of the
>> Internet over the past 40 years, one of the takeaways for me is how we?ve
>> managed to surprise ourselves in both the unanticipated successes we?ve
>> encountered and in the instances of failure when technology has stubbornly
>> resisted to be deployed despite our confident expectations to the contrary!
>> What have we learned from these lessons about our inability to predict
>> technology outcomes? Are the issues related to the aspects of the
>> technology? Are they embedded in the considerations behind the expectations
>> about how a technology will be adopted? Or do the primary issues reside at
>> a deeper level relating to economic and even political contexts? Let?s look
>> at this question of failed expectations using several specific examples
>> drawn from the last 40 years of the Internet?s evolution.
>>
>> *The Public Debut of the Internet (and the demise of O.S.I.)*...
>>
>> [...]
>> https://circleid.com/posts/20230524-failed-expectations-a-deep-dive-into-the-internets-40-years-of-evolution
> hilariously I was also within seconds of posting this. Larry lurks on
> my starlink mailing list... adding to cc.
>
>> --
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>


From rob at stanford.com.au  Wed May 31 16:33:43 2023
From: rob at stanford.com.au (Robert Stanford)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 09:33:43 +1000
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
In-Reply-To: <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <681205d8-806d-f287-fd01-1d5d581eb080@stanford.com.au>

On 1/6/23 05:30, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote:
>
>
> ?- An association (session) layer.? This would have made mobility much 
> easier by allowing an "association" to span multiple transport 
> connections as devices move and change their IP addresses.? It also 
> could have reduced the web's addiction to cookies. (OSI made the 
> mistake of making their session layer excessively complicated,? 
> incomprehensibly documented, and never explaining what it was good for.)
>

This now somewhat exists in Multipath TCP.


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed May 31 17:11:39 2023
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:11:39 +1200
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
In-Reply-To: <681205d8-806d-f287-fd01-1d5d581eb080@stanford.com.au>
References: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>
 <681205d8-806d-f287-fd01-1d5d581eb080@stanford.com.au>
Message-ID: <ecd55950-56e8-1cb0-733a-f6870f1b93dd@gmail.com>

On 01-Jun-23 11:33, Robert Stanford via Internet-history wrote:
> On 1/6/23 05:30, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote:
>>
>>
>>  ?- An association (session) layer.? This would have made mobility much
>> easier by allowing an "association" to span multiple transport
>> connections as devices move and change their IP addresses.? It also
>> could have reduced the web's addiction to cookies. (OSI made the
>> mistake of making their session layer excessively complicated,
>> incomprehensibly documented, and never explaining what it was good for.)
>>
> 
> This now somewhat exists in Multipath TCP.

And https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-multipath/
And for that matter in SHIM6 (RFC 5533) although that's failed to deploy.
And the IPv6 flow label, e.g. RFC 7098.

But this all seems *slightly* too low a level for real session identification.

    Brian

From touch at strayalpha.com  Wed May 31 17:50:04 2023
From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 17:50:04 -0700
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
In-Reply-To: <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <9D0A0FBE-E5BF-4F79-8043-CF44B360DAA2@strayalpha.com>

> On May 31, 2023, at 12:30 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> One of my own observations is how we institutionalize our techno-dislikes.
> 
> ISO/OSI was indeed a disaster, largely self inflicted.
> 
> But it did contain a lot of good ideas.  And we've tended to put distance between the Internet of today and those good ideas.
> 
> My own hobby-horses about things we could have pulled from the OSI carcass are these:
> 
>   - A much better checksum algorithm.  (The OSI Fletcher checksum looks scary but there are ways to compute, anew and incrementally, it that are fast and use only standard 2s complement arithmetic. And it can catch byte reversals that are common when someone forgets to put a hton*() in their code.)
> 
>  - An association (session) layer.  This would have made mobility much easier by allowing an "association" to span multiple transport connections as devices move and change their IP addresses.  It also could have reduced the web's addiction to cookies. (OSI made the mistake of making their session layer excessively complicated,  incomprehensibly documented, and never explaining what it was good for.)

These are just functions that could arguably exist - or be improved - at any ?layer?. 

IMO, OSI got layering wrong not just by what iit limited to specific layers, but with the whole idea that layers are absolute in the first place. There?s so much we can do without that constraint, including not only spanning multiple transports, but bridging between packet and circuit models too.

OSI is just the degenerate case of instantiating relative, recursive layers as a particular - and notably arbitrary - fixed instance.*

*(that?s OSI was relegated to one of the last lectures of my intro to networking course)

Joe

?
Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com



From jeanjour at comcast.net  Wed May 31 18:47:22 2023
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 21:47:22 -0400
Subject: [ih] 
 =?utf-8?q?Failed_Expectations=3A_A_Deep_Dive_Into_the_Inter?=
 =?utf-8?q?net=E2=80=99s_40_Years_of_Evolution_=28Geoff_Huston=29?=
In-Reply-To: <ecd55950-56e8-1cb0-733a-f6870f1b93dd@gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrjFKQS7wZA62EtyiXa1Dze-frBj=E6NR4wagjF2E84Hqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw5MB2THBUA=7e4znj4wRiUMijaz48RDj+8Q1L7HxZ80gw@mail.gmail.com>
 <0095c63c-891f-b844-3a85-5bc88769969e@cavebear.com>
 <681205d8-806d-f287-fd01-1d5d581eb080@stanford.com.au>
 <ecd55950-56e8-1cb0-733a-f6870f1b93dd@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4DC12E8D-E96F-4FEA-84A1-D8CB70C1D1DC@comcast.net>

What Karl was referring to, wasn?t really the Session Layer. That had been stolen by CCITT for Videotex. By 1983, OSI had determined that the upper 3 layers didn?t exist, were one layer, and fixed it so it could be implemented that way. What he was referring to was ACSE, which was the common means for opening a connection to an application. Something the Internet doesn?t support. ACSE support what the Internet does opening a connection to an arbitrary instance of an application. (But it does it without emulating jump points in low memory as the Internet does.) It goes further an enables opening a connection to a specific instance of an application, and opening a connection with different protocols to a specific instance of an application. Neither of which the Internet supports.

I really don?t understand why this sudden interest in OSI. It has been gone for 30 years. (Although it does seem to be a recurring theme.)

Is that because it takes attention away from the Internet?s fundamental flaws?  Wouldn?t it be more productive to figure out how to rectify those mistakes? 

There are certainly enough of them. I have never seen a group with such a track record: 0 for 7. At every major decision point, and there are 6 or 8 of them, with the right answer and wrong answers known, the Internet consistently chose the wrong one. 

It sure is a good thing that with software you can make almost anything work. Then no one will notice.

I agree with Joe. I never even cover the OSI model when I teach the introductory course. It would be more productive to discuss the Internet?s mistakes.

Take care,
John

> On May 31, 2023, at 20:11, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> On 01-Jun-23 11:33, Robert Stanford via Internet-history wrote:
>> On 1/6/23 05:30, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  - An association (session) layer.  This would have made mobility much
>>> easier by allowing an "association" to span multiple transport
>>> connections as devices move and change their IP addresses.  It also
>>> could have reduced the web's addiction to cookies. (OSI made the
>>> mistake of making their session layer excessively complicated,
>>> incomprehensibly documented, and never explaining what it was good for.)
>>> 
>> This now somewhat exists in Multipath TCP.
> 
> And https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-quic-multipath/
> And for that matter in SHIM6 (RFC 5533) although that's failed to deploy.
> And the IPv6 flow label, e.g. RFC 7098.
> 
> But this all seems *slightly* too low a level for real session identification.
> 
>   Brian
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history