From stewart at serissa.com Thu Mar 9 17:57:38 2023 From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 20:57:38 -0500 Subject: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_Universal_Packet and Paul McJones? inteview of Bob Taylor, in 1975 or 1976 John Shoch and Bob Metcalfe from PARC went to Arpa sponsored meetings at Stanford and at least dropped hints about PUP. How much influence they had I don?t know. Vint was likely there? By the time I worked on the Bay Area Packet Radio Network in 1978 IP packets with a protocol type were already a thing. -Larry From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Mar 9 18:09:31 2023 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2023 21:09:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] Separation of TCP and IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the PUP guys did drop some operational hints - some we agreed with and some not. The IP split came around 1977 and was largely driven by Danny Cohen, Jon Postel, David Reed. This change came not long after I arrived at ARPA in Fall 1976. The referenced "meetings" were my networking seminar at Stanford. v On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 8:58?PM Lawrence Stewart via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PARC_Universal_Packet and Paul > McJones? inteview of Bob Taylor, in 1975 or 1976 John Shoch and Bob > Metcalfe from PARC went to Arpa sponsored meetings at Stanford and at least > dropped hints about PUP. How much influence they had I don?t know. Vint > was likely there? By the time I worked on the Bay Area Packet Radio Network > in 1978 IP packets with a protocol type were already a thing. > > -Larry > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From karl at cavebear.com Mon Mar 20 17:11:16 2023 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:11:16 -0700 Subject: [ih] Somebody probably asked before - Trying to remember early net routing collapse Message-ID: I am sure this has been discussed, but I can't seem to find it... I vaguely remember a story involving some of Dave Mills' machines and a memory error in IMPs or some other switching device that caused all of the net's traffic to be forwarded through one struggling Fuzzy* or PDP-11/03. Could someone give me a pointer? I once did something similar - back when we were using flood-and-prune routing for IP multicast, I was working at a site where our inbound link was a T-1.? Our internal net had several Cisco routers [2500 series] all chatting away with DVMRP [the flood-and-prune multicast routing protocol of that era.]? Anyway, while I was setting up one or our internal 25xx routers I had not yet finished setting up the IP unicast routing.? But that didn't stop my partially configured router from chatting away with IGMP and DVMRP, it merely meant that that router could not send the "prune, please stop sending me traffic!" message. So that router eventually ended up at the end of every IP multicast "flood" that was active on the MBone but without a way of saying "stop, please stop!".? Our poor T-1 saturated.? I learned to not enable IP multicast via DVMRP until my unicast routing was stable.? (We eventually moved onto PIM for multicast routing.) ??? --karl-- From vint at google.com Mon Mar 20 17:16:08 2023 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 20:16:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] Somebody probably asked before - Trying to remember early net routing collapse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: can't say about fuzzballs but the IMPs had a collapse because there was no memory check and one imp (harvard?) sent a routing packet saying it was zero hops from all other imps so naturally.... On Mon, Mar 20, 2023 at 8:11?PM Karl Auerbach via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I am sure this has been discussed, but I can't seem to find it... > > I vaguely remember a story involving some of Dave Mills' machines and a > memory error in IMPs or some other switching device that caused all of > the net's traffic to be forwarded through one struggling Fuzzy* or > PDP-11/03. > > Could someone give me a pointer? > > I once did something similar - back when we were using flood-and-prune > routing for IP multicast, I was working at a site where our inbound link > was a T-1. Our internal net had several Cisco routers [2500 series] all > chatting away with DVMRP [the flood-and-prune multicast routing protocol > of that era.] Anyway, while I was setting up one or our internal 25xx > routers I had not yet finished setting up the IP unicast routing. But > that didn't stop my partially configured router from chatting away with > IGMP and DVMRP, it merely meant that that router could not send the > "prune, please stop sending me traffic!" message. > > So that router eventually ended up at the end of every IP multicast > "flood" that was active on the MBone but without a way of saying "stop, > please stop!". Our poor T-1 saturated. I learned to not enable IP > multicast via DVMRP until my unicast routing was stable. (We eventually > moved onto PIM for multicast routing.) > > --karl-- > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor Reston, VA 20190 +1 (571) 213 1346 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Mar 20 17:58:07 2023 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2023 17:58:07 -0700 Subject: [ih] Somebody probably asked before - Trying to remember early net routing collapse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't remember the details, but in the early days there were frequent battles between the "core" gateways and the "research" gateways.? We (BBN) were supposed to keep the core running 24x7. But lots of people wanted to build gateways and try out ideas, and the gateway protocols (basically at the time just exchange of routing tables) were sometimes corrupted with nonsensical information. Often incidents were simply caused by bugs in someone's experimental code.? But not always.? One case I sort of remember was when someone decided to put a new circuit between 2 university sites because they wanted faster service for their frequent file transfers.?? It seemed (to them) like an obvious thing to do.? So they ordered a circuit from the phone company and plugged it into the routers at each site.? But because of the topology of the overall network, that new circuit became the "shortest path", simply because it was the fewest number of hops, for a lot of network traffic.?? That could very easily have routed a lot of traffic through a Fuzzball, and resulted in those two sites actually experiencing much slower service. Network behavior is often counter-intuitive.... Such "incidents" were the motivation, circa 1982, for creating EGP and the notion of Autonomous Systems (see RFC 827).? EGP provided a means for putting a sort of "firewall" between different parts of the Internet -- assuming you could figure out exactly how to filter routing information as it enter "your" Autonomous System to create your own protective firewall.?????? We needed such a mechanism in order to keep the "core" running while all sorts of experiments occurred in other parts of the Internet. With EGP in place, the various research efforts were expected to then experiment and develop some kind of next generation routing scheme involving more appropriate metrics than just "hops" -- at least using transit time as a metric as the ARPANET had been doing, and perhaps introducing other metrics such as available bandwidth, or constraints based on policies such as only carrying certain kinds of data through particular networks.?? AFAIK, that never happened and hops are still the basis for routing. I'm pretty sure I wrote about this at some point years ago in the internet-history discussions.? Perhaps ChatGPT or one of its friends can find it..... Jack Haverty On 3/20/23 17:11, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > I am sure this has been discussed, but I can't seem to find it... > > I vaguely remember a story involving some of Dave Mills' machines and > a memory error in IMPs or some other switching device that caused all > of the net's traffic to be forwarded through one struggling Fuzzy* or > PDP-11/03. > > Could someone give me a pointer? > > I once did something similar - back when we were using flood-and-prune > routing for IP multicast, I was working at a site where our inbound > link was a T-1.? Our internal net had several Cisco routers [2500 > series] all chatting away with DVMRP [the flood-and-prune multicast > routing protocol of that era.]? Anyway, while I was setting up one or > our internal 25xx routers I had not yet finished setting up the IP > unicast routing.? But that didn't stop my partially configured router > from chatting away with IGMP and DVMRP, it merely meant that that > router could not send the "prune, please stop sending me traffic!" > message. > > So that router eventually ended up at the end of every IP multicast > "flood" that was active on the MBone but without a way of saying > "stop, please stop!".? Our poor T-1 saturated.? I learned to not > enable IP multicast via DVMRP until my unicast routing was stable.? > (We eventually moved onto PIM for multicast routing.) > > ??? --karl-- > > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Mar 23 11:56:14 2023 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 24 Mar 2023 07:56:14 +1300 Subject: [ih] Fwd: [SIGCIS-Members] SHOT open session: Researching gender in the history of the Internet and the Web In-Reply-To: <6BB64275-F6C4-4DC5-ADA0-2E0EC25929C4@vt.edu> References: <6BB64275-F6C4-4DC5-ADA0-2E0EC25929C4@vt.edu> Message-ID: <6b0f734c-f55a-ed03-bcd1-c348cb3f1a34@gmail.com> FYI -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] SHOT open session: Researching gender in the history of the Internet and the Web Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2023 12:09:10 -0400 From: Janet Abbate via Members Reply-To: Janet Abbate To: members at sigcis.org Dear SIGCIS folks, We are proposing an unconventional session (roundtable) on "Researching gender in the history of the Internet and the Web.? An edited version of the roundtable may become part of a special issue (in progress) of the journal Internet Histories on Gender and Internet/Web History. The roundtable aims to discuss research experiences, methods, sources, corpora, and challenges such as: * Discussing the meaning of the Internet for women and the historical transformations of the relationship between women and the Internet, including structural/cultural obstacles and varying national patterns * Approaching the construction of gender, including its intersectionality with race, on the Internet, including feminism on the web, gender activism and social movements; masculine cultures and the Internet/Web, etc. * Filling gaps in the knowledge of women?s expertise as Internet builders, managers, hackers, influencers, bloggers, content moderators, coders, etc. * Finding relevant sources to better grasp gender and imaginaries of the Internet, such as taking full advantage of oral histories * Mapping and discussing innovative methods to retrace gendered controversies and anti-woman movements online (e.g., trolling, gamergate, #metoo, etc.) * Understanding how the Internet has exploited relational/affective labor * Working on silences and invisibility * Communicating on these findings and disseminating them beyond audiences that are already interested and convinced. To participate, send a CV and short description of the topics you are particularly interested in addressing and your interest and experience in these areas. Junior scholars with work in progress are especially encouraged to participate. Please submit it to valerie.schafer at uni.lu by March, 26, 2023. You can find the open panels here: https://www.historyoftechnology.org/annual-meeting/2023-shot-annual-meeting-october-2023-long-beach-california/3470-2/ Dr. Janet Abbate Professor, Science, Technology and Society Virginia Tech Co-director, VT National Capital Region STS program Author, Inventing the Internet and Recoding Gender -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org From dave.taht at gmail.com Sun Mar 26 13:21:42 2023 From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht) Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2023 13:21:42 -0700 Subject: [ih] Lempel-Ziv, RIP Message-ID: Prof. Abraham Lempel died 7 weeks ago. Prof. Jacob Ziv died today. https://twitter.com/erlichya/status/1639973591214182400 -- Come Heckle Mar 6-9 at: https://www.understandinglatency.com/ Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC