From salo at saloits.com  Fri Jan 20 08:09:46 2023
From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 10:09:46 -0600
Subject: [ih] Variable DSCP Values Per Flow
Message-ID: <7152eb3b-8637-ecdd-267e-8c028c2f50df@saloits.com>

I had always assumed that the DSCP value (and the TOS value before that)
was supposed to remain constant over the life of a flow (five-tuple).
However, I couldn't find this restriction actually written down.

Is there any prohibition in the various specifications against changing
the DSCP value within a flow, perhaps per packet?

Has anyone tried doing this to, for example, request the network to
treat packets within a flow differently?

I suppose the same question could be asked about the IPv6 flow label.

Thanks,

-tjs


From touch at strayalpha.com  Fri Jan 20 08:25:05 2023
From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com)
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 08:25:05 -0800
Subject: [ih] Variable DSCP Values Per Flow
In-Reply-To: <7152eb3b-8637-ecdd-267e-8c028c2f50df@saloits.com>
References: <7152eb3b-8637-ecdd-267e-8c028c2f50df@saloits.com>
Message-ID: <2C629AEC-DB96-4F81-80EA-A670F6FBCD35@strayalpha.com>

Hi, Timothy,

This isn?t on-topic for this list; it might be useful to ask this to the IETF lists, e.g., intarea.

Joe (list admin)
?
Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

> On Jan 20, 2023, at 8:09 AM, Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I had always assumed that the DSCP value (and the TOS value before that)
> was supposed to remain constant over the life of a flow (five-tuple).
> However, I couldn't find this restriction actually written down.
> 
> Is there any prohibition in the various specifications against changing
> the DSCP value within a flow, perhaps per packet?
> 
> Has anyone tried doing this to, for example, request the network to
> treat packets within a flow differently?
> 
> I suppose the same question could be asked about the IPv6 flow label.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> -tjs
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From roland.bless at kit.edu  Fri Jan 20 08:27:24 2023
From: roland.bless at kit.edu (Bless, Roland (TM))
Date: Fri, 20 Jan 2023 17:27:24 +0100
Subject: [ih] Variable DSCP Values Per Flow
In-Reply-To: <7152eb3b-8637-ecdd-267e-8c028c2f50df@saloits.com>
References: <7152eb3b-8637-ecdd-267e-8c028c2f50df@saloits.com>
Message-ID: <eafb0c80-d4d1-810b-ae96-33003dfd0178@kit.edu>

Hi,

On 20.01.23 at 17:09 Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history wrote:
> I had always assumed that the DSCP value (and the TOS value before that)
> was supposed to remain constant over the life of a flow (five-tuple).
> However, I couldn't find this restriction actually written down.

It is actually a Diffserv feature that DSCPs within a microflow can
change, e.g., packet within a flow can be remarked to have a higher drop
precedence as in the AF PHB group 
(https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2597). However, if packets get marked 
with DSCPs of unrelated PHBs, reordering is very likely to occur as 
different PHBs usually use different queues inside a Diffserv node.
> Is there any prohibition in the various specifications against changing
> the DSCP value within a flow, perhaps per packet?

Nope, but reordering may happen in some cases and that would induce
performance penalties at the receiving end (if in order delivery is
required).

> Has anyone tried doing this to, for example, request the network to
> treat packets within a flow differently?

Yes, sure, look at the AF PHB group.
Other uses could be to mark non-conforming packets with a DSCP of a 
lower priority PHB instead of dropping them completely.

> I suppose the same question could be asked about the IPv6 flow label.

This doesn't make so much sense to me as the flow label should
remain the same for all packets of a micro-flow for classification
purposes ("Packet classifiers can
    use the triplet of Flow Label, Source Address, and Destination
    Address fields to identify the flow to which a particular packet
    belongs.", see https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc6437)


Cheers,
  Roland



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Fri Jan 20 11:32:58 2023
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 21 Jan 2023 08:32:58 +1300
Subject: [ih] Variable DSCP Values Per Flow
In-Reply-To: <2C629AEC-DB96-4F81-80EA-A670F6FBCD35@strayalpha.com>
References: <7152eb3b-8637-ecdd-267e-8c028c2f50df@saloits.com>
 <2C629AEC-DB96-4F81-80EA-A670F6FBCD35@strayalpha.com>
Message-ID: <b08b9451-a8d0-9440-444c-0538fe8cbe0b@gmail.com>

Hi Joe and Timothy,

For the DSCP, discussion normally takes place in TSVWG these days, and for the flow label, either in 6MAN or V6OPS. But I'll reply technically off list.

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 21-Jan-23 05:25, touch--- via Internet-history wrote:
> Hi, Timothy,
> 
> This isn?t on-topic for this list; it might be useful to ask this to the IETF lists, e.g., intarea.
> 
> Joe (list admin)
> ?
> Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist
> www.strayalpha.com
> 
>> On Jan 20, 2023, at 8:09 AM, Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> I had always assumed that the DSCP value (and the TOS value before that)
>> was supposed to remain constant over the life of a flow (five-tuple).
>> However, I couldn't find this restriction actually written down.
>>
>> Is there any prohibition in the various specifications against changing
>> the DSCP value within a flow, perhaps per packet?
>>
>> Has anyone tried doing this to, for example, request the network to
>> treat packets within a flow differently?
>>
>> I suppose the same question could be asked about the IPv6 flow label.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -tjs
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 

From julf at Julf.com  Sun Jan 22 08:23:39 2023
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 17:23:39 +0100
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
Message-ID: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>

As some of you might remember, EUnet started out as an informal
Europe-wide UUCP/USENET collaboration network under the auspices
of the European UNIX User Group (EUUG), moving to TCP/IP and becoming
a bunch of commercial ISPs in various countries, many of whom formed
the Europe-wide ISP EUnet International that then got acquired by Qwest
and turned into the ill-fated KPN/Qwest joint venture, innovatively
named KPNQwest that failed in the dotcom crash when the parent companies
dropped their support.

As an old EUnetter I was surprised to come across https://eunet.com/,
copyrighted 1982-2023 to "Global Internet Services" that seems to be
a US-based entity, but using the original EUnet logo and with a
brief history of EUnet at https://eunet.com/?page=vz

Any idea who these guys are?

	Julf


From chonkn at gmail.com  Sun Jan 22 09:43:12 2023
From: chonkn at gmail.com (kilnam chon)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 07:43:12 -1000
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 6:23 AM Johan Helsingius via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> As some of you might remember, EUnet started out as an informal
> Europe-wide UUCP/USENET collaboration network under the auspices
> of the European UNIX User Group (EUUG), moving to TCP/IP and becoming
> a bunch of commercial ISPs in various countries, many of whom formed
> the Europe-wide ISP EUnet International that then got acquired by Qwest
> and turned into the ill-fated KPN/Qwest joint venture, innovatively
> named KPNQwest that failed in the dotcom crash when the parent companies
> dropped their support.
>
> As an old EUnetter I was surprised to come across https://eunet.com/,
> copyrighted 1982-2023 to "Global Internet Services" that seems to be
> a US-based entity, but using the original EUnet logo and with a
> brief history of EUnet at https://eunet.com/?page=vz
>
> Any idea who these guys are?
>

Teus Hagen and Daniel Karrenburg in Netherland who later set up RIPE NCC.

chon

>
>         Julf
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From julf at Julf.com  Sun Jan 22 10:08:18 2023
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 19:08:18 +0100
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
 <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>

On 22/01/2023 18:43, kilnam chon wrote:
>     Any idea who these guys are?
>  Teus Hagen and Daniel Karrenburg in Netherland who later set up RIPE NCC.

Thanks, but I meant the people behind the current eunet.com site and
"Global Internet Services".

Interestingly, in their "About" page that has the short history of
EUnet, they say "Founded by group of young software and network 
pioneers, led by Eric Bach, Teus Hagen, Peter Collinson, Julf
Helsingius, Daniel Karrenberg, Luc De Vos, Bj?rn Eriksen,
Piet Beertema, Keld Simonsen and Glenn Kowack.". OK, I know
who Julf Helsingius is :), While I know/knew and worked with
Teus, PC, Daniel, Luc, Bj?rn, Piet, Keld and Glenn, I have never
heard of Eric Bach, and it was pointed out to me that the page source
has "<meta name="author" content="Eric Bach">".

     Julf


From chonkn at gmail.com  Sun Jan 22 10:13:27 2023
From: chonkn at gmail.com (kilnam chon)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 08:13:27 -1000
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
 <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <CAJBN=-LNvsC24xLtPUF17Rn2ny7jyAGU_5dfTAEfeee9N7J-WQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Sun, Jan 22, 2023 at 8:08 AM Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com> wrote:

> On 22/01/2023 18:43, kilnam chon wrote:
> >     Any idea who these guys are?
> >  Teus Hagen and Daniel Karrenburg in Netherland who later set up RIPE
> NCC.
>
> Thanks, but I meant the people behind the current eunet.com site and
> "Global Internet Services".
>

better ask daniel karrenburg who is reasonably active.
teus hagen along piet beertema retired from these activities many years ago.
i don't know eric.

chon

>
> Interestingly, in their "About" page that has the short history of
> EUnet, they say "Founded by group of young software and network
> pioneers, led by Eric Bach, Teus Hagen, Peter Collinson, Julf
> Helsingius, Daniel Karrenberg, Luc De Vos, Bj?rn Eriksen,
> Piet Beertema, Keld Simonsen and Glenn Kowack.". OK, I know
> who Julf Helsingius is :), While I know/knew and worked with
> Teus, PC, Daniel, Luc, Bj?rn, Piet, Keld and Glenn, I have never
> heard of Eric Bach, and it was pointed out to me that the page source
> has "<meta name="author" content="Eric Bach">".
>
>      Julf
>


From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Sun Jan 22 11:12:39 2023
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 20:12:39 +0100
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <202301221912.30MJCdAN061983@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:

 > Any idea who these guys are?

No idea. I suspect they are trying to sell the domain name using
the information they found at wikipedia:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUnet.

	jaap


From julf at Julf.com  Sun Jan 22 11:16:22 2023
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 20:16:22 +0100
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <202301221912.30MJCdAN061983@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
 <202301221912.30MJCdAN061983@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
Message-ID: <bb555bb8-0fb8-dc91-2b4b-a1151bc400d2@Julf.com>

Quite possibly.

On 22/01/2023 20:12, Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
>   Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:
> 
>   > Any idea who these guys are?
> 
> No idea. I suspect they are trying to sell the domain name using
> the information they found at wikipedia:
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUnet.
> 
> 	jaap


From julf at Julf.com  Sun Jan 22 11:19:13 2023
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Sun, 22 Jan 2023 20:19:13 +0100
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <CAJBN=-LNvsC24xLtPUF17Rn2ny7jyAGU_5dfTAEfeee9N7J-WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
 <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>
 <CAJBN=-LNvsC24xLtPUF17Rn2ny7jyAGU_5dfTAEfeee9N7J-WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b7ae9bc8-e9af-e541-84e1-c550f7970aed@Julf.com>

On 22/01/2023 19:13, kilnam chon wrote:
> better ask daniel karrenburg?who is reasonably active.

I will, next time I talk to him. By the way, it is "Karrenberg",
not "Karrenburg".

> teus hagen along piet beertema retired from these activities many years ago.

I know. I am still in touch with them occasionally.

> i don't know eric.

I have a suspicion they don't know him either, but I might be wrong.

	Julf


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Sun Jan 22 12:02:51 2023
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 09:02:51 +1300
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
 <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>
Message-ID: <e9c913ac-9712-4b6e-ab3b-c929ec1c2085@gmail.com>

I certainly never came across Eric Bach in my own contacts with EUnet people. The only Eric Bach in our world that I can find is/was a cryptography expert, who worked with Steve Bellovin and others in the old days:

https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~bach/bach.html

e.g.

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cryptography-faq/part1/

Regards
    Brian Carpenter

On 23-Jan-23 07:08, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> On 22/01/2023 18:43, kilnam chon wrote:
>>      Any idea who these guys are?
>>   Teus Hagen and Daniel Karrenburg in Netherland who later set up RIPE NCC.
> 
> Thanks, but I meant the people behind the current eunet.com site and
> "Global Internet Services".
> 
> Interestingly, in their "About" page that has the short history of
> EUnet, they say "Founded by group of young software and network
> pioneers, led by Eric Bach, Teus Hagen, Peter Collinson, Julf
> Helsingius, Daniel Karrenberg, Luc De Vos, Bj?rn Eriksen,
> Piet Beertema, Keld Simonsen and Glenn Kowack.". OK, I know
> who Julf Helsingius is :), While I know/knew and worked with
> Teus, PC, Daniel, Luc, Bj?rn, Piet, Keld and Glenn, I have never
> heard of Eric Bach, and it was pointed out to me that the page source
> has "<meta name="author" content="Eric Bach">".
> 
>       Julf

From julf at Julf.com  Mon Jan 23 01:46:10 2023
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 10:46:10 +0100
Subject: [ih] EUnet and "Global Internet Services"
In-Reply-To: <e9c913ac-9712-4b6e-ab3b-c929ec1c2085@gmail.com>
References: <be7e7993-01a7-a279-2e2b-e2e9955f6c69@Julf.com>
 <CAJBN=-LXVks0SSasn8HBSeJPWv1Z5KhGxjSVxNGC98SeO1y+gA@mail.gmail.com>
 <70adf0d6-1e2a-2241-0d74-98c3a83f2610@Julf.com>
 <e9c913ac-9712-4b6e-ab3b-c929ec1c2085@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <381b1387-e8b2-6d59-22c2-1d7ef8bb030e@Julf.com>

I have checked with several of my ex-colleagues, and none of them
remember any Eric Bach. One of them also found this:

https://mocten.com/cdfeeb-about

"In January 1993, EUNET launched the first online news website, 
MOCTEN.com (stands for Music Opinions Culture Technology Economy News), 
led by Eric Bach, Teus Hagen, Peter Collinson, Julf Helsingius, Daniel 
Karrenberg, Luc De Vos, Bj?rn Eriksen, Piet Beertema, Keld Simonsen and 
Glenn Kowack."

Looking at mocten.com on the wayback machine, it seems it had been
held by some domain speculator.

So I assume it is all a domain scam. Just wonder where they got the
list of people from.

	Julf


On 22/01/2023 21:02, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> I certainly never came across Eric Bach in my own contacts with EUnet 
> people. The only Eric Bach in our world that I can find is/was a 
> cryptography expert, who worked with Steve Bellovin and others in the 
> old days:
> 
> https://pages.cs.wisc.edu/~bach/bach.html
> 
> e.g.
> 
> http://www.faqs.org/faqs/cryptography-faq/part1/
> 
> Regards
>  ?? Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 23-Jan-23 07:08, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
>> On 22/01/2023 18:43, kilnam chon wrote:
>>> ???? Any idea who these guys are?
>>> ? Teus Hagen and Daniel Karrenburg in Netherland who later set up 
>>> RIPE NCC.
>>
>> Thanks, but I meant the people behind the current eunet.com site and
>> "Global Internet Services".
>>
>> Interestingly, in their "About" page that has the short history of
>> EUnet, they say "Founded by group of young software and network
>> pioneers, led by Eric Bach, Teus Hagen, Peter Collinson, Julf
>> Helsingius, Daniel Karrenberg, Luc De Vos, Bj?rn Eriksen,
>> Piet Beertema, Keld Simonsen and Glenn Kowack.". OK, I know
>> who Julf Helsingius is :), While I know/knew and worked with
>> Teus, PC, Daniel, Luc, Bj?rn, Piet, Keld and Glenn, I have never
>> heard of Eric Bach, and it was pointed out to me that the page source
>> has "<meta name="author" content="Eric Bach">".
>>
>> ????? Julf