From vgcerf at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 05:18:08 2022
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 08:18:08 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03AIGRmRAM&t=784s

v


From geoff at iconia.com  Wed Nov  2 09:33:02 2022
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 09:33:02 -0700
Subject: [ih] "The Real Origin of Cisco Systems" by Tom Rindfleisch
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>

EXCERPT:

The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
(1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...

Tom Rindfleisch
Last updated April 8, 1999

[...]
https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From geoff at iconia.com  Wed Nov  2 09:45:26 2022
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 09:45:26 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>

uhm/er...@~14:52

"...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from using
the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???




On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:18 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03AIGRmRAM&t=784s
>
> v
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From dave.taht at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 10:04:40 2022
From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 10:04:40 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>

which among other things, spawned busybox, I once wrote up my
intersection with here:

http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003/06/wireless-connection.html

I didn't know the cisco story was similar. How history repeats itself!
I don't remember a whole lot about the linuxrouter project (dave
cinege
had some odd ideas), but it was pretty foundational to the birth of
the embedded linux market as a whole. Similarly, the story of busybox
is not particularly well known, but it combined the most common unix
utilities into one binary that *fit* into the limited amount of flash
and memory available in the 90s and early 2000s in a form that allowed
for extensive scripting for complex functionality, compared to the
all-in-one approach of OSes like windriver's.

There's also the handhelds.org project, which nobody remembers along
the brief flurry of app stores for linux-running handhelds in the
pocketpc era...

And also, uclinux.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:33 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> EXCERPT:
>
> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>
> Tom Rindfleisch
> Last updated April 8, 1999
>
> [...]
> https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


From winowicki at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  2 10:20:11 2022
From: winowicki at yahoo.com (Bill Nowicki)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 17:20:11 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>

 
Oh yes, Tom's page is fairly accurate. The Stanford vs. Cisco story should be well known by now. In the early 1980s?I was lucky to be friends with both Bill Yeager and Len Bosack, who each were smart people making contributions, as well as the others mentioned. I wrote some very early software for the original Stanford University Network project (SUN, vs. the company Sun, where I worker later from 1985-1989).?
The anecdote I would add might be the following. My wife worked at a now-defunct Stanford spin-off in the late 1980s, which was one of the first customers of both Cisco and Sun, since we knew each other. She showed me that their Cisco box used the prompt "Welcome to SU-Net", the original spelling that Bill Yeager used in his software, not mentioning the company Cisco at all. Cisco had not even bothered to change the prompt in those early days!    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 10:05:04 AM PDT, Dave Taht via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 which among other things, spawned busybox, I once wrote up my
intersection with here:

http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003/06/wireless-connection.html

I didn't know the cisco story was similar. How history repeats itself!
I don't remember a whole lot about the linuxrouter project (dave
cinege
had some odd ideas), but it was pretty foundational to the birth of
the embedded linux market as a whole. Similarly, the story of busybox
is not particularly well known, but it combined the most common unix
utilities into one binary that *fit* into the limited amount of flash
and memory available in the 90s and early 2000s in a form that allowed
for extensive scripting for complex functionality, compared to the
all-in-one approach of OSes like windriver's.

There's also the handhelds.org project, which nobody remembers along
the brief flurry of app stores for linux-running handhelds in the
pocketpc era...

And also, uclinux.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:33 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> EXCERPT:
>
> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>
> Tom Rindfleisch
> Last updated April 8, 1999
>
> [...]
> https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From karl at cavebear.com  Wed Nov  2 11:05:31 2022
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 11:05:31 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <e247a3a6-a9cf-ae66-c0cc-e422ccda50e3@cavebear.com>

By-the-way, lest it be forgotten, Doug Karl wrote an early IP router and 
an ethernet switch that ran on fairly vanilla PC-platforms.? They worked 
pretty well.

I think they were PC/MS-DOS based and used John Romkey's packet driver 
design (with specific implementations by Russ Nelson) for the various 
Ethernet cards out there.

 ??? --karl--



From jeanjour at comcast.net  Wed Nov  2 11:25:29 2022
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:25:29 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <e247a3a6-a9cf-ae66-c0cc-e422ccda50e3@cavebear.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <e247a3a6-a9cf-ae66-c0cc-e422ccda50e3@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <582C3DD4-1AC9-4D48-B99A-A5637335EA8D@comcast.net>

We did a VME IP router for Project Athena in what must have been 82-84. Have to find someone who remembers.

> On Nov 2, 2022, at 14:05, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> By-the-way, lest it be forgotten, Doug Karl wrote an early IP router and an ethernet switch that ran on fairly vanilla PC-platforms.  They worked pretty well.
> 
> I think they were PC/MS-DOS based and used John Romkey's packet driver design (with specific implementations by Russ Nelson) for the various Ethernet cards out there.
> 
>     --karl--
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From agmalis at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 11:29:06 2022
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:29:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU1C7OsGctnZqvm_FPe8C2eS-1p0q66cfJc54aXWvTkVOA@mail.gmail.com>

Geoff,

I ran the "flag day" transition on Jan. 1 in the BBN NOC. From a
layperson's perspective, the phrase you quoted is just fine. It would have
been a bit more accurate if they said "the old ARPANET host-host protocol"
rather than "the old 1822 protocol".

What actually happened was to prepare for the flag day, we added a new bit
to each host's configuration in the IMPs. The bit said whether or not a
host was allowed to use the host-host protocol. If the bit was off, then
host-host packets were discarded by the IMPs. Most of those bits got
flipped from "on" to "off" on January 1, but we did start the year with a
list of exceptions that had been previously approved by the ARPANET
management, and more exceptions were approved as the phone calls started
coming in. As hosts got their TCP/IP stacks working, their host-host
protocol permission was turned off.

Cheers,
Andy


On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> uhm/er...@~14:52
>
> "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
> January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from using
> the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:18 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03AIGRmRAM&t=784s
> >
> > v
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> >
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Wed Nov  2 11:29:36 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 11:29:36 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>

On 11/2/2022 9:45 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via 
Internet-history wrote:
> "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
> January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from using
> the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???

A mere off-by-one error.? In this case, one layer for the old.

And since I'm posting...

I thought Arpanet / Packet Net / Satnet was the first demonstrating of 
actual internetworking with TCP/IP.? The video cites US/England as the 
first.

d/


ps. We are in End Times.? It just started raining here, for the second 
day in a row.


-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From vgcerf at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 11:30:13 2022
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:30:13 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>

well that's weird - good point - NCP. 1822 was still the host/imp interface.
v


On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <
geoff at iconia.com> wrote:

> uhm/er...@~14:52
>
> "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
> January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from using
> the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 5:18 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03AIGRmRAM&t=784s
>>
>> v
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>>
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
>
>


From vgcerf at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 11:32:09 2022
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:32:09 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>

you are right, dave. The US/UK (UCL connection) was first operational use
of tcp/ip since they went via satnet in 1982 while the rest of the net went
in 1983.

v


On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:

> On 11/2/2022 9:45 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history wrote:
> > "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
> > January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from using
> > the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???
>
> A mere off-by-one error.  In this case, one layer for the old.
>
> And since I'm posting...
>
> I thought Arpanet / Packet Net / Satnet was the first demonstrating of
> actual internetworking with TCP/IP.  The video cites US/England as the
> first.
>
> d/
>
>
> ps. We are in End Times.  It just started raining here, for the second
> day in a row.
>
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
>
>


From el at lisse.NA  Wed Nov  2 11:35:30 2022
From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 20:35:30 +0200
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <582C3DD4-1AC9-4D48-B99A-A5637335EA8D@comcast.net>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <e247a3a6-a9cf-ae66-c0cc-e422ccda50e3@cavebear.com>
 <582C3DD4-1AC9-4D48-B99A-A5637335EA8D@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <780e1980-3a0d-8e60-b6f8-8b64b379aeb5@lisse.NA>

Uninet South Africa used PC-Route in the very early 90's.

The NSRC has a list:

	https://nsrc.org/archives/lowcost_tools/net-tech

el

On 02/11/2022 20:25, John Day via Internet-history wrote:
> We did a VME IP router for Project Athena in what must have been
> 82-84.  Have to find someone who remembers.
> 
>> On Nov 2, 2022, at 14:05, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> By-the-way, lest it be forgotten, Doug Karl wrote an early IP router
>> and an ethernet switch that ran on fairly vanilla PC-platforms.  They
>> worked pretty well.
>>
>> I think they were PC/MS-DOS based and used John Romkey's packet
>> driver design (with specific implementations by Russ Nelson) for the
>> various Ethernet cards out there.
>>
>>     --karl--
[...]

-- 
Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse   \         /       Obstetrician & Gynaecologist
el at lisse.NA             / *      |  Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht  \      /  If this email is signed with GPG/PGP
10007, Namibia           ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply


From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Wed Nov  2 11:34:55 2022
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 18:34:55 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <204958436.504206.1667414095680@mail.yahoo.com>

 If you are interested in early IP gateways, check out RFC 898:
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc898.html

There was a meeting at ISI in February 1984 with gateway designers and implementors.
barbara
    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 10:20:35 AM PDT, Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 
Oh yes, Tom's page is fairly accurate. The Stanford vs. Cisco story should be well known by now. In the early 1980s?I was lucky to be friends with both Bill Yeager and Len Bosack, who each were smart people making contributions, as well as the others mentioned. I wrote some very early software for the original Stanford University Network project (SUN, vs. the company Sun, where I worker later from 1985-1989).?
The anecdote I would add might be the following. My wife worked at a now-defunct Stanford spin-off in the late 1980s, which was one of the first customers of both Cisco and Sun, since we knew each other. She showed me that their Cisco box used the prompt "Welcome to SU-Net", the original spelling that Bill Yeager used in his software, not mentioning the company Cisco at all. Cisco had not even bothered to change the prompt in those early days!? ? On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 10:05:04 AM PDT, Dave Taht via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:? 
 
 which among other things, spawned busybox, I once wrote up my
intersection with here:

http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003/06/wireless-connection.html

I didn't know the cisco story was similar. How history repeats itself!
I don't remember a whole lot about the linuxrouter project (dave
cinege
had some odd ideas), but it was pretty foundational to the birth of
the embedded linux market as a whole. Similarly, the story of busybox
is not particularly well known, but it combined the most common unix
utilities into one binary that *fit* into the limited amount of flash
and memory available in the 90s and early 2000s in a form that allowed
for extensive scripting for complex functionality, compared to the
all-in-one approach of OSes like windriver's.

There's also the handhelds.org project, which nobody remembers along
the brief flurry of app stores for linux-running handhelds in the
pocketpc era...

And also, uclinux.

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:33 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> EXCERPT:
>
> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>
> Tom Rindfleisch
> Last updated April 8, 1999
>
> [...]
> https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
? 
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From jeanjour at comcast.net  Wed Nov  2 11:36:06 2022
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:36:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>
 <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9CDE2FB2-1061-4498-BB08-FB924EE0A9D4@comcast.net>

That is over TCP, right?  They were on the ARPANET before that in the late 70s.

> On Nov 2, 2022, at 14:32, vinton cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> you are right, dave. The US/UK (UCL connection) was first operational use
> of tcp/ip since they went via satnet in 1982 while the rest of the net went
> in 1983.
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 11/2/2022 9:45 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> Internet-history wrote:
>>> "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
>>> January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from using
>>> the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???
>> 
>> A mere off-by-one error.  In this case, one layer for the old.
>> 
>> And since I'm posting...
>> 
>> I thought Arpanet / Packet Net / Satnet was the first demonstrating of
>> actual internetworking with TCP/IP.  The video cites US/England as the
>> first.
>> 
>> d/
>> 
>> 
>> ps. We are in End Times.  It just started raining here, for the second
>> day in a row.
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Dave Crocker
>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> bbiw.net
>> 
>> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From craig at tereschau.net  Wed Nov  2 11:37:51 2022
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 12:37:51 -0600
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>
 <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4CdZHosaT6+mH330QxGDXpmbu=0wCCj3vCLy+_Mjk8Cnxw@mail.gmail.com>

Complete side comment.  Every time people mention SATNET I'm reminded of
when I used SATNET as a delay line to debug TCP and RDP implementations on
weekends c. 1985.  I had developed a testing tool that tracked connection
states and displayed them in real-time (on a SUN workstation) and the
round-trip delay to GOONHILLY-ECHO (an IP echo server) was perfect -- I
could literally watch the effect of each packet as it arrived.  (That was
how I figured out issues in TCP round-trip estimation and also the benefits
of extended acknowledgements).

Then I made the mistake of mentioning I was doing this to a senior UCL
person, who chewed me out for using, in his words, "one of the most heavily
used links in the Internet" for testing purposes. :-)

Craig

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:32 PM vinton cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> you are right, dave. The US/UK (UCL connection) was first operational use
> of tcp/ip since they went via satnet in 1982 while the rest of the net went
> in 1983.
>
> v
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
>
> > On 11/2/2022 9:45 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> > Internet-history wrote:
> > > "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
> > > January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from
> using
> > > the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???
> >
> > A mere off-by-one error.  In this case, one layer for the old.
> >
> > And since I'm posting...
> >
> > I thought Arpanet / Packet Net / Satnet was the first demonstrating of
> > actual internetworking with TCP/IP.  The video cites US/England as the
> > first.
> >
> > d/
> >
> >
> > ps. We are in End Times.  It just started raining here, for the second
> > day in a row.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dave Crocker
> > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > bbiw.net
> >
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From vint at google.com  Wed Nov  2 11:38:43 2022
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 14:38:43 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <9CDE2FB2-1061-4498-BB08-FB924EE0A9D4@comcast.net>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>
 <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <9CDE2FB2-1061-4498-BB08-FB924EE0A9D4@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggeQ4Xk0T1d+3HV3sMLEecV4hbDnAha2vvCX3zxZ8DZzeQ@mail.gmail.com>

UCL was brought up on NCP in june 1973.
v

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 2:36 PM John Day via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> That is over TCP, right?  They were on the ARPANET before that in the late
> 70s.
>
> > On Nov 2, 2022, at 14:32, vinton cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > you are right, dave. The US/UK (UCL connection) was first operational use
> > of tcp/ip since they went via satnet in 1982 while the rest of the net
> went
> > in 1983.
> >
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 2:29 PM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On 11/2/2022 9:45 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> >> Internet-history wrote:
> >>> "...?so they established what became known as Flag Day on the 1st of
> >>> January 1983 where the entire of ARPANET would have to switch from
> using
> >>> the old 1822 protocol to TCP/IP?" ???
> >>
> >> A mere off-by-one error.  In this case, one layer for the old.
> >>
> >> And since I'm posting...
> >>
> >> I thought Arpanet / Packet Net / Satnet was the first demonstrating of
> >> actual internetworking with TCP/IP.  The video cites US/England as the
> >> first.
> >>
> >> d/
> >>
> >>
> >> ps. We are in End Times.  It just started raining here, for the second
> >> day in a row.
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Dave Crocker
> >> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >> bbiw.net
> >>
> >>
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice

From johnl at iecc.com  Wed Nov  2 12:39:01 2022
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 2 Nov 2022 15:39:01 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <e247a3a6-a9cf-ae66-c0cc-e422ccda50e3@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <20221102193902.9572D4DF79C2@ary.qy>

It appears that Karl Auerbach via Internet-history <karl at cavebear.com> said:
>By-the-way, lest it be forgotten, Doug Karl wrote an early IP router and 
>an ethernet switch that ran on fairly vanilla PC-platforms.? They worked 
>pretty well.
>
>I think they were PC/MS-DOS based and used John Romkey's packet driver 
>design (with specific implementations by Russ Nelson) for the various 
>Ethernet cards out there.

PC-ROUTE was great. My first routers in about 1991 were some old
MS-DOS PCs using packet drivers connected to Wavelan pre-WIFI cards
between my house in Cambridge and the late Steve Dyer's. My house was
tall enough to get adequate line of sight from an attic window to his
house a block away using a pair of inexpensive yagi antennas.

R's,
John


From dave.taht at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 12:47:36 2022
From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 12:47:36 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <20221102193902.9572D4DF79C2@ary.qy>
References: <e247a3a6-a9cf-ae66-c0cc-e422ccda50e3@cavebear.com>
 <20221102193902.9572D4DF79C2@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <CAA93jw5uSCH-awyfHaBTQ1nTMBui2QL22s8jxm_sCy+Fr7+YNA@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:39 PM John Levine via Internet-history
<internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> It appears that Karl Auerbach via Internet-history <karl at cavebear.com> said:
> >By-the-way, lest it be forgotten, Doug Karl wrote an early IP router and
> >an ethernet switch that ran on fairly vanilla PC-platforms.  They worked
> >pretty well.
> >
> >I think they were PC/MS-DOS based and used John Romkey's packet driver
> >design (with specific implementations by Russ Nelson) for the various
> >Ethernet cards out there.
>
> PC-ROUTE was great. My first routers in about 1991 were some old
> MS-DOS PCs using packet drivers connected to Wavelan pre-WIFI cards
> between my house in Cambridge and the late Steve Dyer's. My house was
> tall enough to get adequate line of sight from an attic window to his
> house a block away using a pair of inexpensive yagi antennas.

Wow. I was bridging wireless stuff around that time, but didn't know
how to route. IPX was still a thing. Wasn't til
1998 (as per my subject line) that I figured out how to route...

While we're mentioning folk, phil karn's networking stack was popular,
and was used as a base for linux's in 93.

> R's,
> John
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


From vgcerf at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 17:36:23 2022
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 20:36:23 -0400
Subject: [ih] "The Real Origin of Cisco Systems" by Tom Rindfleisch
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>

I thought that Tim Berners-Lee's browser was text based?

v


On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:33 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> EXCERPT:
>
> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>
> Tom Rindfleisch
> Last updated April 8, 1999
>
> [...]
> https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From sauer at technologists.com  Wed Nov  2 17:47:55 2022
From: sauer at technologists.com (Charles H. Sauer)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 19:47:55 -0500
Subject: [ih] "The Real Origin of Cisco Systems" by Tom Rindfleisch
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <F6D19D8F-88AE-4A8D-9947-18A109317A30@technologists.com>

Yes, timbl?s browser was/is text based -- I have 0.15 of his browser running on NEXTSTEP 486 https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/. CHS

> On Nov 2, 2022, at 7:36 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I thought that Tim Berners-Lee's browser was text based?
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:33 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> EXCERPT:
>> 
>> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
>> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
>> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
>> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
>> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
>> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
>> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>> 
>> Tom Rindfleisch
>> Last updated April 8, 1999
>> 
>> [...]
>> https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>> 
>> --
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

--
voice: +1.512.784.7526       e-mail: sauer at technologists.com <mailto:sauer at technologists.com>           
fax: +1.512.346.5240         web: https://technologists.com/sauer/ <http://technologists.com/sauer/>
Facebook/Google/Skype/Twitter: CharlesHSauer



From internet-history at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Nov  2 17:51:33 2022
From: internet-history at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 18:51:33 -0600
Subject: [ih] "The Real Origin of Cisco Systems" by Tom Rindfleisch
In-Reply-To: <F6D19D8F-88AE-4A8D-9947-18A109317A30@technologists.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <F6D19D8F-88AE-4A8D-9947-18A109317A30@technologists.com>
Message-ID: <e9c5cf38-8fe8-7c8d-d92b-0917b1e4c3d9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/2/22 6:47 PM, Charles H. Sauer via Internet-history wrote:
> Yes, timbl?s browser was/is text based -- 
> I have 0.15 of his browser running on NEXTSTEP 486 
> https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/.

Well, Today I Learned.  --  Thank you.

I guess I had always assumed that it was a GUI application given it's 
origins in NextSTEP.  But from the picture, it reminds me of lynx / 
links / etc. running in XTerm or the likes.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Nov  2 17:55:35 2022
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 13:55:35 +1300
Subject: [ih] "The Real Origin of Cisco Systems" by Tom Rindfleisch
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d01e6302-d961-41c9-28c6-7166099d5f1d@gmail.com>

On 03-Nov-22 13:36, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> I thought that Tim Berners-Lee's browser was text based?

Actually that one was written by Nicola Pellow, who was a student interning at CERN, and it was the second browser. I was a beta user.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicola_Pellow

The first one, Tim wrote on a Next, which limited the user base rather severely.

    Brian

> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 12:33 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> EXCERPT:
>>
>> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
>> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
>> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
>> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
>> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
>> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
>> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>>
>> Tom Rindfleisch
>> Last updated April 8, 1999
>>
>> [...]
>> https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>>
>> --
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>


From craig at tereschau.net  Wed Nov  2 18:55:32 2022
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 19:55:32 -0600
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <58b6fcd6-bf0f-3c70-25cf-bc4789b43785@bbiw.net>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <fb0674af-6320-d6ae-b068-bfd3ca5d0e10@dcrocker.net>
 <CAAFtm_Wyx_o178+w7PRZYkZ2_Oi_FumaJn23jx8cs7BKf0b2xw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHQj4CdZHosaT6+mH330QxGDXpmbu=0wCCj3vCLy+_Mjk8Cnxw@mail.gmail.com>
 <58b6fcd6-bf0f-3c70-25cf-bc4789b43785@bbiw.net>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4CfcVE6e_-+Zean5_e1PFRkmmq5v8fsOCy7wuQKPz8mO9g@mail.gmail.com>

Well it was my first experience with the Internet having become a critical
resource, rather than simply for research.  (I suspect I sorta understood
it was a critical resource on weekdays -- the notion that weekends were
vital too was a definite surprise).

I carefully rationed my use of GOONHILLY-ECHO thereafter, and, as I recall,
switched to ISI-ECHO for routine testing.

Craig

On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 7:52 PM Dave Crocker <dcrocker at bbiw.net> wrote:

> On 11/2/2022 11:37 AM, Craig Partridge wrote:
> > Then I made the mistake of mentioning I was doing this to a senior UCL
> > person, who chewed me out for using, in his words, "one of the most
> > heavily used links in the Internet" for testing purposes. :-)
>
> Doing research on a research network is, indeed, unforgivable.  I assume
> you apologized profusely.
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
>
>

-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Wed Nov  2 19:00:10 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2022 19:00:10 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>

On 11/2/2022 11:30 AM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> well that's weird - good point - NCP. 1822 was still the host/imp interface.

His video did an energetic segment on 1822 and the fact that it 
presented a canonical interface to such a wide variety of computers.

I don't know anything about the range of shared interfaces, for those 
days, but it seems like the next best one was RS-232...

So his getting fixated on it for this later issue might be understandable.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From galmes at tamu.edu  Thu Nov  3 05:52:00 2022
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 08:52:00 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>

Bill, Geoff, et al.,
   As far as I know, Tom's page is accurate and it speaks primarily to 
the issue of who were the real contributors to the initial 'cisco' 
software (and AGS hardware).
   But my impression is that there is much more to the story.

   One sentence that caught my eye was "The software was licensed by 
Bosack and Lerner on behalf of Cisco Systems in 1986, through the 
Stanford Office of Technology Licensing."
   During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an 
NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of uncertainty 
about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some Intellectual 
Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that gave Stanford a 
discount on buying cisco routers.

   So I was a little surprised to see Bill's comment that the Stanford 
vs. Cisco story was "well known".  Can someone send me a pointer to 
where this story is accurately given?

   Thanks,
	-- Guy

On 11/2/22 1:20 PM, Bill Nowicki via Internet-history wrote:
> Oh yes, Tom's page is fairly accurate. The Stanford vs. Cisco story should be well known by now. In the early 1980s?I was lucky to be friends with both Bill Yeager and Len Bosack, who each were smart people making contributions, as well as the others mentioned. I wrote some very early software for the original Stanford University Network project (SUN, vs. the company Sun, where I worker later from 1985-1989).
> The anecdote I would add might be the following. My wife worked at a now-defunct Stanford spin-off in the late 1980s, which was one of the first customers of both Cisco and Sun, since we knew each other. She showed me that their Cisco box used the prompt "Welcome to SU-Net", the original spelling that Bill Yeager used in his software, not mentioning the company Cisco at all. Cisco had not even bothered to change the prompt in those early days!    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 10:05:04 AM PDT, Dave Taht via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>   
>   which among other things, spawned busybox, I once wrote up my
> intersection with here:
> 
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003/06/wireless-connection.html__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT_tvw3ZhA$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003/06/wireless-connection.html__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT_tvw3ZhA$>
> 
> I didn't know the cisco story was similar. How history repeats itself!
> I don't remember a whole lot about the linuxrouter project (dave
> cinege
> had some odd ideas), but it was pretty foundational to the birth of
> the embedded linux market as a whole. Similarly, the story of busybox
> is not particularly well known, but it combined the most common unix
> utilities into one binary that *fit* into the limited amount of flash
> and memory available in the 90s and early 2000s in a form that allowed
> for extensive scripting for complex functionality, compared to the
> all-in-one approach of OSes like windriver's.
> 
> There's also the handhelds.org project, which nobody remembers along
> the brief flurry of app stores for linux-running handhelds in the
> pocketpc era...
> 
> And also, uclinux.
> 
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:33 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> EXCERPT:
>>
>> The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
>> the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
>> 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
>> (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
>> was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
>> purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
>> developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>>
>> Tom Rindfleisch
>> Last updated April 8, 1999
>>
>> [...]
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-mj0cR5Q$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-mj0cR5Q$>
>>
>> --
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-VtggZMQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-VtggZMQ$>
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT9gVnxzDg$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT9gVnxzDg$>
> Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-VtggZMQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-VtggZMQ$>
>    
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-VtggZMQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!E2yNRc88G-Ky3i9qOVTBYXsDxdn8fP9tTWzRaSl33OJ5GOBJhUttPuw3tTQTypbmBADPxrrnCjVYR3rPGDuUiT-VtggZMQ$>
> 


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Thu Nov  3 06:05:22 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 06:05:22 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>

On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> ? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an 
> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of 
> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some 
> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that 
> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers. 

Adding to the rumors...

At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the 
settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From galmes at tamu.edu  Thu Nov  3 08:07:34 2022
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:07:34 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>

Dave,
   The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall 
wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is 
correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
   So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't" 
story is not very interesting.
   The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco. 
Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a 
license during 1986.

   By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987. 
At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the 
second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me 
and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the 
competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office 
suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.

   We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I 
never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a 
bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and 
have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business 
that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.

   But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the 
cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely 
Internet history of interest.

   	-- Guy

On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>> ? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an 
>> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of 
>> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some 
>> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that 
>> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers. 
> 
> Adding to the rumors...
> 
> At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
> settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
> 
> d/
> 
> -- 
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>
> 


From geoff at iconia.com  Thu Nov  3 08:23:06 2022
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 08:23:06 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrgqrjGhO4o6dk0t4Xn7nAviofBmoYu4tYzbkCvNScimLg@mail.gmail.com>

in furtherance of Guy's relating that "... It was neat being able to call
cisco to report a
bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
that day..."

it was related to yours truly -- by a "a sngle-digit-employee-number
person" -- when we were driving by Len & Sandy's house one day in Menlo
Park that the "secret" to cisco's expeditious customer support was (1) that
the entire engineering staff was on the customer support email address and
thus would see customer "issues" as they were reported and would thereby
directly attend to their "fixage" as they came in and (2) that the 24/7 800
# phone line -- after hours -- rang a phone at Len's bedside...
geoff

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 8:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Dave,
>    The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
> wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>    So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
> story is not very interesting.
>    The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
> license during 1986.
>
>    By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>
>    We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
> never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
> that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>
>    But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
> Internet history of interest.
>
>         -- Guy
>
> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> >>   During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
> >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
> >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
> >> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
> >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
> >
> > Adding to the rumors...
> >
> > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
> > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
> >
> > d/
> >
> > --
> > Dave Crocker
> > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > bbiw.net
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From craig at tereschau.net  Thu Nov  3 08:54:32 2022
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 09:54:32 -0600
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.

Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
folks who had worked on the routers.  And the routers were actively used
for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.

I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.

So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
improvements in their heads.

Craig

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Dave,
>    The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
> wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>    So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
> story is not very interesting.
>    The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
> license during 1986.
>
>    By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>
>    We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
> never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
> that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>
>    But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
> Internet history of interest.
>
>         -- Guy
>
> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> >>   During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
> >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
> >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
> >> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
> >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
> >
> > Adding to the rumors...
> >
> > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
> > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
> >
> > d/
> >
> > --
> > Dave Crocker
> > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > bbiw.net
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> >
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From dave.taht at gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 09:02:31 2022
From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 09:02:31 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAK2MWOvHD_5GZEMRxrxCUf04mpFRhJhhZH7aCY2rp5R20R3oYA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAK2MWOvHD_5GZEMRxrxCUf04mpFRhJhhZH7aCY2rp5R20R3oYA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA93jw5CuFDRE4ubru9Av479brGjWus1+tNYx=h6Qj=3Qxi=9Q@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 8:39 AM Bruce Perens <bruce at perens.com> wrote:
>
> There is much to praise about the Linux Router Project, but it did not spawn Busybox. I wrote Busybox to create a two-floppy Linux installer for 3.5" floppy disks. This installed Debian. At the time, motherboards would not boot CDs, so we needed a floppy for the kernel and a floppy for the runtime before we could read a CD. Busybox was made to be that runtime. It was expanded by Erik Andersen at Lineo (and afterward)

Thanks for the corrections, bruce! (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BusyBox ) It's been over 10 years since
the GPLv2 controversies
around this died down, how do you feel about the current situation?

> and another embedded Linux company - the name escapes me.

Timesys?

It wasn't montavista (where I was), and I don't think handhelds.org
was involved either. But busybox certainly was a component in multiple
pocket-pc alikes in the 1999 timeframe, none of which I can remember
the names of either. I still remember jim gettys "unobtanium" vividly,
bulky ("is that a brick in your pocket or are you just glad to see
me?"), with a gps, wifi, and a barely working accellerometer, circa
2001... (ha! wired article on it:
https://www.wired.com/2001/11/build-your-own-franken-pda/ ) - people
were demoing X multitouch circa, 1999? but that too only barely
worked... but it was seething with potential, just like wifi was... at
the time, I thought we'd use X on a server, and display to the
handheld over wifi. The web hadn't taken off yet for much more than
dancing cats, and you had room to write real applications on real
boxes...

I spent many zillions of hours 1997(?) sshed into the handhelds.org
strongarm testbeds, porting code. Fun times.

> The Linux router project built upon it rather than creating it.

1998 LRP spawned a huge sea change in thinking for me. Instead of
trying to scale up non-mmu'd single system "embedded" images,
(windriver, ready systems, others) it proved WAY easier to scale linux
down and leverage all the QA and development work taking place
elsewhere. It took MONTHS for my roomate greg to convince me he wasn't
crazy... but the ease of use and a real scripting language in LRP was
a near-religous conversion for me. Busybox was really key, and if I'd
not thanked you for doing that before, thx!

http://www.rage.net/wireless/diary.html

I fiddled with uclinux only once again (on a pretty nifty DSP I'll
admit), but the 99.99999% chance of just one wild pointer, somewhere,
put me off of working without an MMU ever again, and once the wrt54g
landed, there was no looking back for any other form of router for me.
Cisco picked up montavista linux for their (NX?) product, and...

Haven't touched a box without a MMU since. IoT scares me.

>
>     Thanks
>
>     Bruce
>
> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022, 10:04 Dave Taht <dave.taht at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> which among other things, spawned busybox, I once wrote up my
>> intersection with here:
>>
>> http://the-edge.blogspot.com/2003/06/wireless-connection.html
>>
>> I didn't know the cisco story was similar. How history repeats itself!
>> I don't remember a whole lot about the linuxrouter project (dave
>> cinege
>> had some odd ideas), but it was pretty foundational to the birth of
>> the embedded linux market as a whole. Similarly, the story of busybox
>> is not particularly well known, but it combined the most common unix
>> utilities into one binary that *fit* into the limited amount of flash
>> and memory available in the 90s and early 2000s in a form that allowed
>> for extensive scripting for complex functionality, compared to the
>> all-in-one approach of OSes like windriver's.
>>
>> There's also the handhelds.org project, which nobody remembers along
>> the brief flurry of app stores for linux-running handhelds in the
>> pocketpc era...
>>
>> And also, uclinux.
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 2, 2022 at 9:33 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > EXCERPT:
>> >
>> > The following account of the real origins of Cisco Systems, as opposed to
>> > the history often recounted in Cisco company literature, was written in
>> > 1999 by Tom Rindfleisch. Rindfleisch was Director of the SUMEX-AIM project
>> > (1973-1990), under which the software for a powerful Internet router system
>> > was developed and widely deployed at Stanford and elsewhere for research
>> > purposes. That code found its way, without approval from the original
>> > developers, to form the basis of the Cisco router...
>> >
>> > Tom Rindfleisch
>> > Last updated April 8, 1999
>> >
>> > [...]
>> > https://www.tcracs.org/tcrwp/1origin-of-cisco/
>> >
>> > --
>> > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> > living as The Truth is True
>> > --
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
>> https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
>> Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC



-- 
This song goes out to all the folk that thought Stadia would work:
https://www.linkedin.com/posts/dtaht_the-mushroom-song-activity-6981366665607352320-FXtz
Dave T?ht CEO, TekLibre, LLC


From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  3 09:50:35 2022
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 16:50:35 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>

 At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
barbara
    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.

Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.

I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.

So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
improvements in their heads.

Craig

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Dave,
>? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
> wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
> story is not very interesting.
>? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
> license during 1986.
>
>? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>
>? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
> never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
> that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>
>? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
> Internet history of interest.
>
>? ? ? ? -- Guy
>
> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
> >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
> >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
> >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
> >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
> >
> > Adding to the rumors...
> >
> > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
> > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
> >
> > d/
> >
> > --
> > Dave Crocker
> > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > bbiw.net
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> >
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From winowicki at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  3 11:13:53 2022
From: winowicki at yahoo.com (Bill Nowicki)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 18:13:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>

 
Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually, Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes, most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer" seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the graphics board.?Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any Bill Yeager code.?
The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were getting a great deal.
If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
Cisco endows professorship in information technology


| 
| 
|  | 
Cisco endows professorship in information technology


 |

 |

 |


https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it


Bill
    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
  At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
barbara
? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:? 
 
 Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.

Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.

I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.

So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
improvements in their heads.

Craig

On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Dave,
>? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
> wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
> story is not very interesting.
>? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
> license during 1986.
>
>? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>
>? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
> never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
> that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>
>? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
> Internet history of interest.
>
>? ? ? ? -- Guy
>
> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
> >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
> >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
> >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
> >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
> >
> > Adding to the rumors...
> >
> > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
> > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
> >
> > d/
> >
> > --
> > Dave Crocker
> > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > bbiw.net
> >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> <
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> >
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
? 
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From jack at 3kitty.org  Thu Nov  3 11:19:31 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:19:31 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>

Just looked at the video - yes, it's pretty good.?? A few observations 
though...

- Through the 70s, I worked with or for JCR Licklider.? I never heard 
anyone call him "JCR Lick".? To VIP visitors at the MIT lab, he was 
"Professor Licklider".? To everyone who knew him, he was just "Lick".?? 
Maybe it was different elsewhere, but never "JCR Lick", at least at MIT

- My general impression is that the video is a reasonably accurate 
account of what happened, or at least some parts of that history. But 
it's not very good at explaining "How" the Internet happened, or why 
TCP/IP became the basis for today's Internet after a historic battle of 
technologies and organizations.? E.g., it mentions OSI when discussing 
the Web, but neglects to mention any of the other networking 
developments going on through the 80s - SNA, DecNet, Appletalk, Netware, 
Vines, X.25/X.75 "internets", and especially XNS, which IMHO was closest 
in vision to the TCP/IP world.? I expected the "How" of today's Internet 
to include an explanation of what caused all of those other 
actitivities, including OSI, to just disappear almost overnight, leaving 
TCP/IP as the only survivor. The video mentions that OSI "never 
happened" at CERN, but the same is true of the military environment 
where it all started - the US military networks were also supposed to 
migrate to OSI, and in fact the various networks (ARPANET, MILNET, ...) 
replaced the "1822" interface with standard X.25, as a first step on the 
migration to OSI.? That was the Plan.? But, like at CERN, that migration 
also never happened -- Why not...?

- There's just a slight reference to the military origins of the 
Internet, and no explanation of what those early Internet projects were 
trying to accomplish -- i.e., what was the Internet trying to do 40-50 
years ago?? E.g., the Packet Radio technology, demos, and deployments 
aren't mentioned at all.? SATNET was mentioned, but the video ignored 
the context of its history and plans, such as the deployment to the Navy 
on an aircraft carrier.? IMHO, the Internet technology was driven by 
military command-and-control scenarios, and was purposely made "open" 
for others to use if they chose to do so. The Internet technology was, 
again IMHO, just adopted by the academic and then commercial world 
because it was the only one that they could actually use for what they 
wanted to do, and the needs of the non-military world were close enough 
to those of the military that TCP/IP fit nicely.

- After years of indoctrination by Lick I was thoroughly converted to 
his view of the "Galactic Network", in which computers and 
communications synergized to help humans do whatever humans do.? His 
"Galactic Network" vision is very close to what I see today as I type, 
looking at the screen in front of me, which I think of as "The 
Internet".? So I disagree with the statement in the video that the Web 
is not a fundamental part of the Internet, but rather lives "on top of" 
the Internet.? Packet voice was another important type of network 
traffic in the 80s, not mentioned at all in the video. Using Web 
technology for conveying images, and Internet voice technology for 
conversations, a military operation in the 80s could be envisioned, and 
today's use of teleconferencing, telemedicine, and such could adopt the 
same technology for everything people do today.? But the video 
categorizes technologies such as the Web, or Zoom, Skype, et al, as not 
being components of "The Internet" any more.?? They are now "apps" that 
exist "on top of" the Internet. How did that happen...?

Jack Haverty
MIT (1966-1977), BBN (1977-1990)


From geoff at iconia.com  Thu Nov  3 11:35:23 2022
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:35:23 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>

vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
out this informally, including an email thread from the time."

the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
https://www.saildart.org/%5B1,LES%5D/
then be paging down thru the list of files on the
left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
1986-05-27 15:32  CISCO .MSG [  1,LES]  1    23040
***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
final "CISCO.MSG" file at
1988-07-21 14:44  CISCO .MSG [  1,LES] 20   311040
then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.

geoff


On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>
> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.  And yes,
> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
> seminars.  There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
> Bill Yeager code.
> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
> getting a great deal.
> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>
>
> |
> |
> |  |
> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>  |
>
>
>
> https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it
>
>
> Bill
>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>   At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
> then Cisco.  There were other sources of early technology transfer.
> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
> barbara
>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>  Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>
> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
> folks who had worked on the routers.  And the routers were actively used
> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>
> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>
> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
> improvements in their heads.
>
> Craig
>
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > Dave,
> >    The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
> >    So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
> > story is not very interesting.
> >    The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
> > license during 1986.
> >
> >    By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
> >
> >    We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
> > never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
> > that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
> >
> >    But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
> > Internet history of interest.
> >
> >        -- Guy
> >
> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> > >>  During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
> > >> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
> > >
> > > Adding to the rumors...
> > >
> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
> > >
> > > d/
> > >
> > > --
> > > Dave Crocker
> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
> > > bbiw.net
> > >
> > > --
> > > Internet-history mailing list
> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> > <
> >
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
>
>
> --
> *****
> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
> mailing lists.
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True


From j at shoch.com  Thu Nov  3 11:36:30 2022
From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 11:36:30 -0700
Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 38, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <mailman.388.1667491370.7006.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
References: <mailman.388.1667491370.7006.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrK2djHdU+zjnTPzvJDn6HdynOVzOkBd2dKvYCsHwZkc1Q8Nw@mail.gmail.com>

"The more interesting thing would be why they [Stanford] were upset at
cisco."

Well.....:
--Yeager started work on the router code at Stanford in 1980.
--cisco was officially created in 1984 (perhaps as an outside consulting
project?).
--In 1985 Yeager was asked for a copy of his code.
--In 1986 there were people who were apparently working both for Stanford
and cisco.  From an archive of email in 1986, evidently sent to a Stanford
email address:

Len, There are a number of matters that we need to talk about as soon as
possible.  .......

I would like to think that each of these problems can be addressed and
resolved satisfactorily.  But such a resolution may require a choice on
your part either to substantially disengage yourself from outside
consulting and pay much more attention to your responsibilities here or
to leave Stanford and proceed with the development of your company.  I
would like you to consider these points and discuss them with me next
Wednesday.

--As far as I can tell, the 1986 or 1987 license was an after-the-fact
effort to clean up a mess.....

So, if you want to dive into this particular swamp, wade through this 1986
email thread....all about conflicts of interest and more....
https://www.saildart.org/CISCO.MSG[1,LES]9



John


From vgcerf at gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 11:37:06 2022
From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 14:37:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <CAAFtm_W5BmxHYoNJGEMydtj17nZaHte17EmZJf02J4HL906o2g@mail.gmail.com>

considering that web runs via https which runs over tcp/ip or quic/udp,
one notion of "internet" is the transport system for carrying application
layer services. Another is that it's all internet. These interpretations
get conflated in our discussions.

v




On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 2:20 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Just looked at the video - yes, it's pretty good.   A few observations
> though...
>
> - Through the 70s, I worked with or for JCR Licklider.  I never heard
> anyone call him "JCR Lick".  To VIP visitors at the MIT lab, he was
> "Professor Licklider".  To everyone who knew him, he was just "Lick".
> Maybe it was different elsewhere, but never "JCR Lick", at least at MIT
>
> - My general impression is that the video is a reasonably accurate
> account of what happened, or at least some parts of that history. But
> it's not very good at explaining "How" the Internet happened, or why
> TCP/IP became the basis for today's Internet after a historic battle of
> technologies and organizations.  E.g., it mentions OSI when discussing
> the Web, but neglects to mention any of the other networking
> developments going on through the 80s - SNA, DecNet, Appletalk, Netware,
> Vines, X.25/X.75 "internets", and especially XNS, which IMHO was closest
> in vision to the TCP/IP world.  I expected the "How" of today's Internet
> to include an explanation of what caused all of those other
> actitivities, including OSI, to just disappear almost overnight, leaving
> TCP/IP as the only survivor. The video mentions that OSI "never
> happened" at CERN, but the same is true of the military environment
> where it all started - the US military networks were also supposed to
> migrate to OSI, and in fact the various networks (ARPANET, MILNET, ...)
> replaced the "1822" interface with standard X.25, as a first step on the
> migration to OSI.  That was the Plan.  But, like at CERN, that migration
> also never happened -- Why not...?
>
> - There's just a slight reference to the military origins of the
> Internet, and no explanation of what those early Internet projects were
> trying to accomplish -- i.e., what was the Internet trying to do 40-50
> years ago?  E.g., the Packet Radio technology, demos, and deployments
> aren't mentioned at all.  SATNET was mentioned, but the video ignored
> the context of its history and plans, such as the deployment to the Navy
> on an aircraft carrier.  IMHO, the Internet technology was driven by
> military command-and-control scenarios, and was purposely made "open"
> for others to use if they chose to do so. The Internet technology was,
> again IMHO, just adopted by the academic and then commercial world
> because it was the only one that they could actually use for what they
> wanted to do, and the needs of the non-military world were close enough
> to those of the military that TCP/IP fit nicely.
>
> - After years of indoctrination by Lick I was thoroughly converted to
> his view of the "Galactic Network", in which computers and
> communications synergized to help humans do whatever humans do.  His
> "Galactic Network" vision is very close to what I see today as I type,
> looking at the screen in front of me, which I think of as "The
> Internet".  So I disagree with the statement in the video that the Web
> is not a fundamental part of the Internet, but rather lives "on top of"
> the Internet.  Packet voice was another important type of network
> traffic in the 80s, not mentioned at all in the video. Using Web
> technology for conveying images, and Internet voice technology for
> conversations, a military operation in the 80s could be envisioned, and
> today's use of teleconferencing, telemedicine, and such could adopt the
> same technology for everything people do today.  But the video
> categorizes technologies such as the Web, or Zoom, Skype, et al, as not
> being components of "The Internet" any more.   They are now "apps" that
> exist "on top of" the Internet. How did that happen...?
>
> Jack Haverty
> MIT (1966-1977), BBN (1977-1990)
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From julf at Julf.com  Thu Nov  3 12:30:09 2022
From: julf at Julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 20:30:09 +0100
Subject: [ih] "The Real Origin of Cisco Systems" by Tom Rindfleisch
In-Reply-To: <e9c5cf38-8fe8-7c8d-d92b-0917b1e4c3d9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VZjvptJdGaVifbW9spzeOMAFmDuvukJKNbKGS-=xRR1Q@mail.gmail.com>
 <F6D19D8F-88AE-4A8D-9947-18A109317A30@technologists.com>
 <e9c5cf38-8fe8-7c8d-d92b-0917b1e4c3d9@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>
Message-ID: <3723ba17-550a-f725-07cc-583f391022aa@Julf.com>

The first web browser with a graphical user interface was Erwise,
developed as a joint masters project at Helsinki University of
Technology in Finland.

Unfortunately they couldn't get funding to continue the project,
despite Tim Berners-Lee visiting them in Helsinki to encourage
them to continue.

It didn't help that the documentation was in Finnish...

	Julf

On 03/11/2022 01:51, Grant Taylor via Internet-history wrote:
> On 11/2/22 6:47 PM, Charles H. Sauer via Internet-history wrote:
>> Yes, timbl?s browser was/is text based -- I have 0.15 of his browser 
>> running on NEXTSTEP 486 
>> https://notes.technologists.com/notes/2019/07/01/koko-reviving-timbls-worldwideweb-browser/.
> 
> Well, Today I Learned.? --? Thank you.
> 
> I guess I had always assumed that it was a GUI application given it's 
> origins in NextSTEP.? But from the picture, it reminds me of lynx / 
> links / etc. running in XTerm or the likes.
> 
> 
> 


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Thu Nov  3 12:45:33 2022
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 08:45:33 +1300
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>

Everybody has their own version of history, I guess, and I agree that
the video is a view through a very specific collimator. I enjoyed it,
though.

> The video mentions that OSI "never happened" at CERN

Actually we got as close as anybody, because we did deploy DECnet
Phase V. But additionally to what the video said, the *reason*
TimBL could invent the web was because we more or less abandoned
OSI (except for DECnet) during 1989 and started supporting
TCP/IP.

https://doi.org/10.1016/0169-7552(89)90040-8

Regards
    Brian

On 04-Nov-22 07:19, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> Just looked at the video - yes, it's pretty good.?? A few observations
> though...
> 
> - Through the 70s, I worked with or for JCR Licklider.? I never heard
> anyone call him "JCR Lick".? To VIP visitors at the MIT lab, he was
> "Professor Licklider".? To everyone who knew him, he was just "Lick".
> Maybe it was different elsewhere, but never "JCR Lick", at least at MIT
> 
> - My general impression is that the video is a reasonably accurate
> account of what happened, or at least some parts of that history. But
> it's not very good at explaining "How" the Internet happened, or why
> TCP/IP became the basis for today's Internet after a historic battle of
> technologies and organizations.? E.g., it mentions OSI when discussing
> the Web, but neglects to mention any of the other networking
> developments going on through the 80s - SNA, DecNet, Appletalk, Netware,
> Vines, X.25/X.75 "internets", and especially XNS, which IMHO was closest
> in vision to the TCP/IP world.? I expected the "How" of today's Internet
> to include an explanation of what caused all of those other
> actitivities, including OSI, to just disappear almost overnight, leaving
> TCP/IP as the only survivor. The video mentions that OSI "never
> happened" at CERN, but the same is true of the military environment
> where it all started - the US military networks were also supposed to
> migrate to OSI, and in fact the various networks (ARPANET, MILNET, ...)
> replaced the "1822" interface with standard X.25, as a first step on the
> migration to OSI.? That was the Plan.? But, like at CERN, that migration
> also never happened -- Why not...?
> 
> - There's just a slight reference to the military origins of the
> Internet, and no explanation of what those early Internet projects were
> trying to accomplish -- i.e., what was the Internet trying to do 40-50
> years ago?? E.g., the Packet Radio technology, demos, and deployments
> aren't mentioned at all.? SATNET was mentioned, but the video ignored
> the context of its history and plans, such as the deployment to the Navy
> on an aircraft carrier.? IMHO, the Internet technology was driven by
> military command-and-control scenarios, and was purposely made "open"
> for others to use if they chose to do so. The Internet technology was,
> again IMHO, just adopted by the academic and then commercial world
> because it was the only one that they could actually use for what they
> wanted to do, and the needs of the non-military world were close enough
> to those of the military that TCP/IP fit nicely.
> 
> - After years of indoctrination by Lick I was thoroughly converted to
> his view of the "Galactic Network", in which computers and
> communications synergized to help humans do whatever humans do.? His
> "Galactic Network" vision is very close to what I see today as I type,
> looking at the screen in front of me, which I think of as "The
> Internet".? So I disagree with the statement in the video that the Web
> is not a fundamental part of the Internet, but rather lives "on top of"
> the Internet.? Packet voice was another important type of network
> traffic in the 80s, not mentioned at all in the video. Using Web
> technology for conveying images, and Internet voice technology for
> conversations, a military operation in the 80s could be envisioned, and
> today's use of teleconferencing, telemedicine, and such could adopt the
> same technology for everything people do today.? But the video
> categorizes technologies such as the Web, or Zoom, Skype, et al, as not
> being components of "The Internet" any more.?? They are now "apps" that
> exist "on top of" the Internet. How did that happen...?
> 
> Jack Haverty
> MIT (1966-1977), BBN (1977-1990)

From dhc at dcrocker.net  Thu Nov  3 15:52:24 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 15:52:24 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <c67fc8e0-eb42-f8e8-c564-965e8086637b@dcrocker.net>

On 11/3/2022 8:07 AM, Guy Almes wrote:
> ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco. 
> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a 
> license during 1986.

Well, again, I only have rumor to work on.? The rumor was that Len was a 
work-for-hire employee and took the Stanford software without 
authorization or any legitimate claim.

Assuming that rumor has any merit, the overlap about a license would be 
some form of compensation to Stanford to authorize the license.? I'd 
expect stock to be the only available choice, at that stage of the company.

And did I mention that I have no direct knowledge of any of this...?

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From dhc at dcrocker.net  Thu Nov  3 15:57:53 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 15:57:53 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <3f9aff85-6581-e4db-b332-ecb0cf82c2a8@dcrocker.net>

On 11/3/2022 11:19 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> I never heard anyone call him "JCR Lick".? To VIP visitors at the MIT 
> lab, he was "Professor Licklider".? To everyone who knew him, he was 
> just "Lick".?? Maybe it was different elsewhere, but never "JCR Lick", 
> at least at MIT 

He doesn't know how to pronounce Crocker, either...

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From dhc at dcrocker.net  Thu Nov  3 16:05:36 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 16:05:36 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_W5BmxHYoNJGEMydtj17nZaHte17EmZJf02J4HL906o2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
 <CAAFtm_W5BmxHYoNJGEMydtj17nZaHte17EmZJf02J4HL906o2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <14562552-4535-0e4d-0e22-437721595148@dcrocker.net>

On 11/3/2022 11:37 AM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> considering that web runs via https which runs over tcp/ip or quic/udp,
> one notion of "internet" is the transport system for carrying application
> layer services. Another is that it's all internet. These interpretations
> get conflated in our discussions.

While it is heresy to utter in the midst of Transport folk, I've always 
pointed out that end2end is, ultimately, an application attribute, often 
transiting multiple transports.

www.rfc-editor.org

RFC 1775: To Be "On" the Internet <#>

? https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1775 
<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc1775>

d/

ps.? I used to think that the MUA and the mailbox were end-to-end.? Then 
I met EDI over Email.? As far as EDI was concern, Email was just 
transport...? So I guess it's turtles all the way /up/.

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Thu Nov  3 16:09:57 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 16:09:57 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
 <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4c3c3066-e56a-45aa-7cb2-bc43c2e83e2f@dcrocker.net>

On 11/3/2022 12:45 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> But additionally to what the video said, the *reason*
> TimBL could invent the web was because we more or less abandoned
> OSI (except for DECnet) during 1989 and started supporting
> TCP/IP. 

While I was at Wollongong, where 20% of our revenue was from Europe, 
where OSI supposedly dominated, one of my customers was the head of IT 
at ISO...

Chatting with him one day, I asked whether he caught much grief from his 
organization about his using technology that could be viewed as disloyal.

As operations folk often are, he immediately and firmly assured me that 
his bosses got to tell his what capabilities they needed him to provide, 
but they didn't get to tell him how to do it, and he had an obligation 
to provide a service that worked.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From galmes at tamu.edu  Thu Nov  3 18:13:39 2022
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 21:13:39 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>

Geoff,
   This is very interesting.
   For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early 
hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the 
email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the 
story in some detail.

   Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom 
Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b) 
Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
   The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous 
things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the 
correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months 
from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions 
that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version) 
Stanford.
   And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable 
historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.

   Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will 
make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being 
fought over was not what I expected.  Most of it was about detailed work 
on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to 
being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.  What I'd expected was 
that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I 
think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early 
Cisco gateways was the big deal.  All the haggling over circuit boards 
strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as 
little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the 
ground".
   Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the 
router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.  The sad 
thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going 
cheaper and faster.  This apart from legal issues which I will avoid 
judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one 
side of the story).

   From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came 
about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment 
about who was legally correct.
   And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New 
England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.

   All for now.
   	-- Guy


On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via 
Internet-history wrote:
> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
> 
> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
> then be paging down thru the list of files on the
> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
> 1986-05-27 15:32  CISCO .MSG [  1,LES]  1    23040
> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
> 1988-07-21 14:44  CISCO .MSG [  1,LES] 20   311040
> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
> 
> geoff
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.  And yes,
>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>> seminars.  There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>> Bill Yeager code.
>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>> getting a great deal.
>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>
>>
>> |
>> |
>> |  |
>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>
>>
>>  |
>>
>>  |
>>
>>  |
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>   At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>> then Cisco.  There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>> barbara
>>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>  Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>
>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>> folks who had worked on the routers.  And the routers were actively used
>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>
>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>
>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>> improvements in their heads.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dave,
>> >    The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>> >    So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>> > story is not very interesting.
>> >    The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>> > license during 1986.
>> >
>> >    By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>> >
>> >    We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>> > never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>> > that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>> >
>> >    But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>> > Internet history of interest.
>> >
>> >        -- Guy
>> >
>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>  During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>> > >
>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>> > >
>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>> > >
>> > > d/
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Dave Crocker
>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> > > bbiw.net
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > >
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>> <
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>> >
>> > >
>> > --
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *****
>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>> mailing lists.
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>>
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
> 


From galmes at tamu.edu  Thu Nov  3 18:18:53 2022
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 21:18:53 -0400
Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 38, Issue 6
In-Reply-To: <CAFrK2djHdU+zjnTPzvJDn6HdynOVzOkBd2dKvYCsHwZkc1Q8Nw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.388.1667491370.7006.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
 <CAFrK2djHdU+zjnTPzvJDn6HdynOVzOkBd2dKvYCsHwZkc1Q8Nw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <aa4299c0-20ee-94cb-f39c-0e86634cdf91@tamu.edu>

John,
   Very helpful.
   This is consistent with things I heard at the time, but more nuanced 
and (especially with the <saildart.org> archives, so richly detailed.
   	-- Guy

On 11/3/22 2:36 PM, John Shoch via Internet-history wrote:
> "The more interesting thing would be why they [Stanford] were upset at
> cisco."
> 
> Well.....:
> --Yeager started work on the router code at Stanford in 1980.
> --cisco was officially created in 1984 (perhaps as an outside consulting
> project?).
> --In 1985 Yeager was asked for a copy of his code.
> --In 1986 there were people who were apparently working both for Stanford
> and cisco.  From an archive of email in 1986, evidently sent to a Stanford
> email address:
> 
> Len, There are a number of matters that we need to talk about as soon as
> possible.  .......
> 
> I would like to think that each of these problems can be addressed and
> resolved satisfactorily.  But such a resolution may require a choice on
> your part either to substantially disengage yourself from outside
> consulting and pay much more attention to your responsibilities here or
> to leave Stanford and proceed with the development of your company.  I
> would like you to consider these points and discuss them with me next
> Wednesday.
> 
> --As far as I can tell, the 1986 or 1987 license was an after-the-fact
> effort to clean up a mess.....
> 
> So, if you want to dive into this particular swamp, wade through this 1986
> email thread....all about conflicts of interest and more....
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/CISCO.MSG*1,LES*9__;W10!!KwNVnqRv!EyIf0VRwcRaSK9zhJllXGz7mmJm1-SF-fgCH4mRaEaW_AodrTnr-kn-g_kNSOdDT-qpnstnwVRog0wXOwmanlFwQeLU0Nw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/CISCO.MSG*1,LES*9__;W10!!KwNVnqRv!EyIf0VRwcRaSK9zhJllXGz7mmJm1-SF-fgCH4mRaEaW_AodrTnr-kn-g_kNSOdDT-qpnstnwVRog0wXOwmanlFwQeLU0Nw$>
> 
> 
> 
> John
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!EyIf0VRwcRaSK9zhJllXGz7mmJm1-SF-fgCH4mRaEaW_AodrTnr-kn-g_kNSOdDT-qpnstnwVRog0wXOwmanlFxXAyb_TQ$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!EyIf0VRwcRaSK9zhJllXGz7mmJm1-SF-fgCH4mRaEaW_AodrTnr-kn-g_kNSOdDT-qpnstnwVRog0wXOwmanlFxXAyb_TQ$>
> 


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Thu Nov  3 19:35:14 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2022 19:35:14 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <d86d05b4-1bb5-c884-d162-c6d1e416bd6c@dcrocker.net>

On 11/3/2022 6:13 PM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> ? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the 
> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.

A counterpoint.? This time, direct experience, rather than rumor:

While at Ungermann-Bass, around the years being discussed, I managed the 
effort to put TCP/IP onto the U-B intelligent PC card and include 
applications on the PC to use it.? Our second customer was Rutgers.? 
Some months later, our salesperson called me and said that Rutgers was 
interested in buying a router from us.? I noted that we didn't have one, 
didn't have one in the pipeline, and that the salesperson already knew this.

She acknowledged all that, and further said that the Rutgers IT guy also 
knew all this.? But, she said, he liked us.? I noted that, really, he 
liked /her/.

But an opportunity is an opportunity, so I asked how long he would 
wait.? (For the router, not for her.)? She called back later and said 6 
months.

We had a guy just coming off a project who had said to me, on my second 
day at U-B, that he really wanted to built a router.? So I corralled 
Stan and asked him how long he would need to build one. We did a 
whiteboard analysis -- well, really, he did it and I just grunted 
occasionally and sometimes asked a question, mostly to keep him going.? 
He estimated 5 months and I noted that was perfect, leaving us a month 
for testing.

I went to our marketing guy and he blew me off, saying that there was no 
market and only a few were needed for the backbone.? I then went to my 
boss, John Davidson (*), who said that we never like saying no.? So he 
authorized the project.

Stan Maniply was the best coder I'd seen and hit the mark.? And we 
delivered.

But U-B marketing never knew how to do anything but market to a small 
number of large customers.? (The company had a dumb Ethernet card that 
was faster and cheaper than 3-Com's, but again, had no idea how to 
market it.)

The same limitation applied to an Internet symbolic packet trace product 
I built, based on an existing U-B XNS trace tool.? At the Rutgers PC 
product delivery, I brought it with us so the IT guy could see the 
packet traffic.? He was casually satisfied with our basic delivered 
product but was got /very/ excited about the trace tool.? Lightbulb... 
This made clear that IT people doing networks would be interested in 
something that gave them insight into what the heck was going on... down 
there.? But, again, U-B marketing didn't know what to do with it.? And 
by the way, neither did Wollongong marketing, when we built a fresh tool 
there. Also, I thought it was a product opportunity, not a full business 
opportunity.? This changed when Harry Saal's company reached a million a 
month.

So, yeah, rather anti-climatically and obviously, this underscores that 
understanding an opportunity matters.? Possibly more than building a 
competent product.

d/

(*) Quite a number of people were guilty for having pointed, goaded 
and/or facilitated me down the professional path I've wandered.? John 
Davidson was an unwitting accomplice.? From his Aloha network graduate 
student venue in Hawaii, he wrote a note about delayed echoing over 
satellites, suggesting adoption of a scheme that Tenex used, allowing 
apps to offload to the operating system; this got documented as RFC 357. 
I was doing user support and had noticed echoing delays were frequent, 
more generally.? So I suggested to my office mate, Jon Postel, that this 
would make an interesting Telnet option and I'd like to write it, but 
only if Jon helped.? RFC 560, RCTE.? Option 5, as I recall.? My first 
networking technical effort.

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  3 19:57:58 2022
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 02:57:58 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <474163332.1327349.1667530678865@mail.yahoo.com>

 Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.??
barbara

    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 Geoff,
? This is very interesting.
? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early 
hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the 
email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the 
story in some detail.

? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom 
Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b) 
Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous 
things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the 
correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months 
from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions 
that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version) 
Stanford.
? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable 
historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.

? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will 
make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being 
fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work 
on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to 
being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was 
that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I 
think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early 
Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards 
strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as 
little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the 
ground".
? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the 
router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.? The sad 
thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going 
cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid 
judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one 
side of the story).

? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came 
about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment 
about who was legally correct.
? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New 
England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.

? All for now.
? ??? -- Guy


On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via 
Internet-history wrote:
> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
> 
> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
> then be paging down thru the list of files on the
> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
> 
> geoff
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes,
>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>> Bill Yeager code.
>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>> getting a great deal.
>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>
>>
>> |
>> |
>> |? |
>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>
>>
>>? |
>>
>>? |
>>
>>? |
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>> barbara
>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>
>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>
>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>
>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>> improvements in their heads.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dave,
>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>> > story is not very interesting.
>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>> > license during 1986.
>> >
>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>> >
>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>> >
>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>> > Internet history of interest.
>> >
>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>> >
>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>> > >
>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>> > >
>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>> > >
>> > > d/
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Dave Crocker
>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> > > bbiw.net
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > >
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>> <
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>> >
>> > >
>> > --
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *****
>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>> mailing lists.
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>>
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
> 
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Thu Nov  3 22:42:37 2022
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 05:42:37 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <474163332.1327349.1667530678865@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
 <474163332.1327349.1667530678865@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1915158045.1366213.1667540557029@mail.yahoo.com>

 Sorry everyone for being cryptic.? I should have checked Wikipedia first.? At the time this happened,? I was asked not to discuss it.? Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.? I was asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see if Cisco could get access to his work.? I was at this meeting as well.?
barbara
    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
  Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.??
barbara

? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:? 
 
 Geoff,
? This is very interesting.
? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early 
hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the 
email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the 
story in some detail.

? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom 
Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b) 
Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous 
things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the 
correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months 
from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions 
that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version) 
Stanford.
? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable 
historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.

? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will 
make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being 
fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work 
on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to 
being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was 
that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I 
think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early 
Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards 
strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as 
little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the 
ground".
? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the 
router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.? The sad 
thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going 
cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid 
judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one 
side of the story).

? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came 
about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment 
about who was legally correct.
? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New 
England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.

? All for now.
? ??? -- Guy


On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via 
Internet-history wrote:
> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
> 
> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
> then be paging down thru the list of files on the
> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
> 
> geoff
> 
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes,
>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>> Bill Yeager code.
>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>> getting a great deal.
>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>
>>
>> |
>> |
>> |? |
>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>
>>
>>? |
>>
>>? |
>>
>>? |
>>
>>
>>
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>
>>
>> Bill
>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>> barbara
>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>
>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>
>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>
>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>> improvements in their heads.
>>
>> Craig
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> > Dave,
>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>> > story is not very interesting.
>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>> > license during 1986.
>> >
>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>> >
>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>> >
>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>> > Internet history of interest.
>> >
>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>> >
>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>> > >
>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>> > >
>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>> > >
>> > > d/
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Dave Crocker
>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> > > bbiw.net
>> > >
>> > > --
>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > >
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>> <
>> >
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>> >
>> > >
>> > --
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>> >
>>
>>
>> --
>> *****
>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>> mailing lists.
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>
>>
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
> 
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
? 
-- 
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Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From galmes at tamu.edu  Fri Nov  4 06:13:30 2022
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 09:13:30 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <1915158045.1366213.1667540557029@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
 <474163332.1327349.1667530678865@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1915158045.1366213.1667540557029@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8f7d5ecf-2bf8-0a1b-8092-05b0c5786ab8@tamu.edu>

Barbara,
   This is very interesting, and it's more interesting than the details 
of licenses and litigation.

   When I first met Len in March 1987, he was very proud of Cisco's IGRP 
routing protocol.  It was indeed better than RIP, of course.  Len 
boasted that IGRP combined five different routing metrics, etc.

   Once we had a few Cisco routers at Rice, I wrote a program to watch 
and try to interpret the IGRP packets being broadcast from the routers. 
There were indeed five fields.
   One was a packet delay.  It was sort of in msec, but was a configured 
value at the router rather than measured delay.
   A second was the reciprocal of bandwidth of the line.
   The other three were empty, but I think one was to eventually be 
something like quality or packet loss or such.  I've forgotten if there 
were any clues about the intention of the other fields.
   To the best of my knowledge, IGRP never was upgraded to use the other 
three fields.  But, considering the wide variety of propagation delays 
in the 1980s (geosynchronous satellites vs microwave, for example) and 
the wide variety of bandwidths (9.6 kb/s vs T1, for example), the two 
that IGRP had were an interesting advance.
   But Cisco clearly intended IGRP to be used only in Cisco routers, so 
it had minimal influence on the broader router design space.
   It would indeed be interesting to know more about JJ's contribution 
to IGRP.

   In parallel, it's commonly understood that both Len and Sandy put 
huge effort into Cisco, but Len always seemed more visible and 
outspoken.  It would be interesting to know more about Sandy's 
contributions.

	-- Guy

On 11/4/22 1:42 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>  Sorry everyone for being cryptic.? I should have checked Wikipedia first.? At the time this happened,? I was asked not to discuss it.? Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.? I was asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see if Cisco could get access to his work.? I was at this meeting as well.
> barbara
>      On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>   
>    Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>>From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.  
> barbara
> 
>  ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>   
>   Geoff,
>  ? This is very interesting.
>  ? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early
> hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the
> email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the
> story in some detail.
> 
>  ? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom
> Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b)
> Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
>  ? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous
> things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the
> correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months
> from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions
> that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version)
> Stanford.
>  ? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable
> historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.
> 
>  ? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will
> make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being
> fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work
> on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to
> being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was
> that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I
> think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early
> Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards
> strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as
> little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the
> ground".
>  ? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the
> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.? The sad
> thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going
> cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid
> judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one
> side of the story).
> 
>  ? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came
> about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment
> about who was legally correct.
>  ? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New
> England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.
> 
>  ? All for now.
>  ? ??? -- Guy
> 
> 
> On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history wrote:
>> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
>> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
>> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
>> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
>> 
>> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
>>>then be paging down thru the list of files on the
>> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
>> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
>> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
>> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
>> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
>> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
>> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
>> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
>> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
>> 
>> geoff
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes,
>>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>>> Bill Yeager code.
>>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>>> getting a great deal.
>>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |? |
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> >> >> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>>> barbara
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>>
>>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
>>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>>
>>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>>
>>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>>> improvements in their heads.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dave,
>>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>>> > story is not very interesting.
>>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>>> > license during 1986.
>>> >
>>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
>>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>>> >
>>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>>> >
>>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>>> > Internet history of interest.
>>> >
>>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>>> >
>>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
>>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>> > >
>>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>>> > >
>>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>> > >
>>> > > d/
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Dave Crocker
>>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> > > bbiw.net
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>><
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>>
>>> > >
>>> > --
>>> > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *****
>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>>> mailing lists.
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >> >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>    
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>    
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
> 


From jack at 3kitty.org  Fri Nov  4 08:36:17 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 08:36:17 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <8f7d5ecf-2bf8-0a1b-8092-05b0c5786ab8@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
 <474163332.1327349.1667530678865@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1915158045.1366213.1667540557029@mail.yahoo.com>
 <8f7d5ecf-2bf8-0a1b-8092-05b0c5786ab8@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <bd6fa64f-0bff-3827-8f36-245dfedf4cfa@3kitty.org>

I agree, fascinating to hear more of the story behind the scenes. I can 
add a little bit of anecdotal history to the Cisco Story...

In the later 80s, BBN was building out the DDN, and it was a 
schizophrenic era.? TCP was mandated as a DoD Standard, but the 
interface to the DDN IMPs was X.25, and there was much activity in 
progress to evolve to OSI.? One of our DDN tasks was to provide "System 
Engineering", which primarily involved helping DoD users get their 
systems up and running on the DDN.?? But it was a general purpose task, 
so it was also used for various consulting work primarily on technical 
issues.

I was the BBN guy responsible for that task, and I remember being 
"invited" to a meeting down somewhere in the bowels of DC.? It was 
somewhere in the 1986-88 timeframe.? The DDN was getting a pitch from 
some startup company trying to get its products into the (huge) DoD 
market, and DDN management needed some technical advice before making 
any purchase decisions.?? So I got on a plane and ended up in the 
meeting listening to "the pitch".

The speaker was Len Bosack, whom I had never met or even heard about.? 
I'm not sure, but I think Sandy was there also as part of their small 
sales team.

I don't recall exactly what was in the pitch, but it did cover how their 
new boxes would fit into the DDN environment.? DDN users, like everyone 
else using computers at the time, could plug their big mainframe-class 
computers into a DDN IMP.? But there was no comprehensive solution for 
all those LANs that were popping up everywhere, and all those 
workstations that were appearing.?? The startup claimed to have a solution.

After the pitch ended, questions ensued.? There were questions for Len 
and crew.? But finally one of the DoD guys in charge turned to me and 
said something like "Will this work?"

I was working for BBN, who were responsible for the "core gateways" of 
the Internet at the time, as well as for the DDN itself. ? So I think 
they expected me to explain all the reasons why it was a terrible idea 
and all network equipment had to come from BBN or the entire DDN would 
be in danger.? That's what vendors did.

But I was also acting as a technical consultant, in effect working for 
DoD to provide guidance on technical issues.? So I thought for a few 
seconds.? We had recently created the notion of Autonomous Systems and 
the EGP protocol to provide a means for protecting different pieces of 
the Internet from the shenanigans of other pieces.? We (BBN) had also 
been lobbying about the need for mechanisms that made routing decisions 
based on metrics such as delay, bandwidth, etc.?? Autonomous Systems 
were created with the goal of enabling other groups to try out other 
ideas, in hopes that someone would find the right technology to be 
folded into the next generation of TCP/IP standards.? The startup had 
some plausible ideas.

It wasn't clear that the startup's approach was the right answer. But it 
also wouldn't hurt to try out such new ideas.? Most importantly, it 
wouldn't be likely to cause any serious problems within the DDN.

So I answered, something like "Yes, it should work."

The System Engineering group at BBN had a motto: "It shouild all 'just 
work'.? But it never does.? We make it work."?? Over the next few years, 
we helped a lot of DDN users get their brand new cisco gateways up and 
running.

Sadly, I didn't appreciate the impact of the transition of the Internet 
from research to commercial environments.?? The research idea was to 
encourage many groups to try out their technical ideas, winnow out the 
best, and incorporate that into the next generation standards.? In 
business, managers often choose to keep their ideas secret, protect them 
with patents and NDAs, and strive to become the dominant supplier of 
whatever they're selling.?? I'm not sure what happened with internal 
mechanisms such as routing, congestion contorl, et al over the decades 
since the 80s, especially the mess when multiprotocol routers were 
common.? But it would be an interesting topic for some historian.

So that's my piece of the story....

Jack Haverty


On 11/4/22 06:13, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
> Barbara,
> ? This is very interesting, and it's more interesting than the details 
> of licenses and litigation.
>
> ? When I first met Len in March 1987, he was very proud of Cisco's 
> IGRP routing protocol.? It was indeed better than RIP, of course. Len 
> boasted that IGRP combined five different routing metrics, etc.
>
> ? Once we had a few Cisco routers at Rice, I wrote a program to watch 
> and try to interpret the IGRP packets being broadcast from the 
> routers. There were indeed five fields.
> ? One was a packet delay.? It was sort of in msec, but was a 
> configured value at the router rather than measured delay.
> ? A second was the reciprocal of bandwidth of the line.
> ? The other three were empty, but I think one was to eventually be 
> something like quality or packet loss or such.? I've forgotten if 
> there were any clues about the intention of the other fields.
> ? To the best of my knowledge, IGRP never was upgraded to use the 
> other three fields.? But, considering the wide variety of propagation 
> delays in the 1980s (geosynchronous satellites vs microwave, for 
> example) and the wide variety of bandwidths (9.6 kb/s vs T1, for 
> example), the two that IGRP had were an interesting advance.
> ? But Cisco clearly intended IGRP to be used only in Cisco routers, so 
> it had minimal influence on the broader router design space.
> ? It would indeed be interesting to know more about JJ's contribution 
> to IGRP.
>
> ? In parallel, it's commonly understood that both Len and Sandy put 
> huge effort into Cisco, but Len always seemed more visible and 
> outspoken.? It would be interesting to know more about Sandy's 
> contributions.
>
> ????-- Guy
>
> On 11/4/22 1:42 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>> ?Sorry everyone for being cryptic.? I should have checked Wikipedia 
>> first.? At the time this happened,? I was asked not to discuss it.? 
>> Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update 
>> ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.? I was 
>> asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see 
>> if Cisco could get access to his work.? I was at this meeting as well.
>> barbara
>> ???? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny 
>> via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> ? ?? Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? 
>> routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably 
>> different than what you think.
>>> From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in 
>>> getting the company off the ground. 
>> barbara
>>
>> ?? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via 
>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> ? ? Geoff,
>> ?? This is very interesting.
>> ?? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early
>> hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the
>> email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the
>> story in some detail.
>>
>> ?? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom
>> Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b)
>> Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
>> ?? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous
>> things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the
>> correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months
>> from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions
>> that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version)
>> Stanford.
>> ?? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable
>> historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.
>>
>> ?? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will
>> make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being
>> fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work
>> on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to
>> being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was
>> that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I
>> think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early
>> Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards
>> strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as
>> little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the
>> ground".
>> ?? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the
>> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going. The sad
>> thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going
>> cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid
>> judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one
>> side of the story).
>>
>> ?? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came
>> about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment
>> about who was legally correct.
>> ?? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New
>> England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.
>>
>> ?? All for now.
>> ?? ??? -- Guy
>>
>>
>> On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> Internet-history wrote:
>>> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was 
>>> concerned
>>> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the 
>>> facilities
>>> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published 
>>> a bit
>>> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
>>>
>>> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> 
>>> > 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
>>>> then be paging down thru the list of files on the
>>> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
>>> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
>>> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
>>> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
>>> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
>>> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
>>> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
>>> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
>>> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
>>>
>>> geoff
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it 
>>>> might
>>>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim 
>>>> by Cisco
>>>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. 
>>>> Usually,
>>>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>>>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) 
>>>> before
>>>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? 
>>>> And yes,
>>>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>>>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the 
>>>> hill. I
>>>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the 
>>>> "dealer"
>>>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, 
>>>> ISI and
>>>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>>>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the 
>>>> Massbus
>>>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software 
>>>> gave them
>>>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a 
>>>> three-way
>>>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology 
>>>> licensing
>>>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to 
>>>> license the
>>>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said 
>>>> patents
>>>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! 
>>>> There was
>>>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>>>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems 
>>>> company
>>>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged 
>>>> from Len
>>>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software 
>>>> without any
>>>> Bill Yeager code.
>>>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned 
>>>> that Len
>>>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>>>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a 
>>>> bit out
>>>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of 
>>>> the bad
>>>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco 
>>>> and Sun
>>>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. 
>>>> Cisco was
>>>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list 
>>>> prices and
>>>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>>>> getting a great deal.
>>>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>>>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> |
>>>> |
>>>> |? |
>>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ? |
>>>>
>>>> ? |
>>>>
>>>> ? |
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> 
>>>> >> >> >> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bill
>>>> ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny 
>>>> via
>>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to 
>>>> Stanford and
>>>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>>>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early 
>>>> commercial
>>>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>>>> barbara
>>>> ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig 
>>>> Partridge via
>>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> ? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>>>
>>>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>>>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively 
>>>> used
>>>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based 
>>>> on new
>>>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>>>
>>>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research 
>>>> despairing as
>>>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>>>
>>>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a 
>>>> continuing
>>>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford 
>>>> employees
>>>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to 
>>>> Cisco, with
>>>> improvements in their heads.
>>>>
>>>> Craig
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > Dave,
>>>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I 
>>>> recall
>>>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>>>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>>>> > story is not very interesting.
>>>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>>>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>>>> > license during 1986.
>>>> >
>>>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 
>>>> 1987.
>>>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space 
>>>> on the
>>>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park. Len Bosack 
>>>> met me
>>>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>>>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>>>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the 
>>>> world.
>>>> >
>>>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>>>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to 
>>>> report a
>>>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the 
>>>> call and
>>>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of 
>>>> business
>>>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year 
>>>> or so.
>>>> >
>>>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>>>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>>>> > Internet history of interest.
>>>> >
>>>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>>>> >
>>>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers 
>>>> for an
>>>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over 
>>>> some
>>>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a 
>>>> settlement that
>>>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>>>> > >
>>>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being 
>>>> that the
>>>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > d/
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Dave Crocker
>>>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>> > > bbiw.net
>>>> > >
>>>> > > --
>>>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>>>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> > >
>>>> >
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ 
>>>> >>>> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>> <
>>>> >
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ 
>>>> >>>> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>>>
>>>> > >
>>>> > --
>>>> > Internet-history mailing list
>>>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> > 
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> >> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> *****
>>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities 
>>>> and
>>>> mailing lists.
>>>> -- 
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> >> >> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> >> >> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>
>>>>> -- 
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$ 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>>> >> >> > 
>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>>> living as The Truth is True
>>> -- 
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$ 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> 
>>> > 
>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$> 
>>
>> ?? --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$> 
>>
>> ?? --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$ 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$> 
>>
>>



From jack at 3kitty.org  Fri Nov  4 10:56:07 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 10:56:07 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
 <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <c2abd465-ff41-f2f3-b445-0e711c67303b@3kitty.org>

Perhaps that paper on doi.org explains why OSI was abandoned in favor of 
TCP.? It's possibly an important part of the History of the Internet.?? 
Somehow I just can't swallow the need to spend $28 to find out, the 
price to read the article, but just for 48 hours. Rather expensive 
"collimator" of history.??? Hmmm, perhaps it's on Amazon.

Jack

On 11/3/22 12:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Everybody has their own version of history, I guess, and I agree that
> the video is a view through a very specific collimator. I enjoyed it,
> though.
>
>> The video mentions that OSI "never happened" at CERN
>
> Actually we got as close as anybody, because we did deploy DECnet
> Phase V. But additionally to what the video said, the *reason*
> TimBL could invent the web was because we more or less abandoned
> OSI (except for DECnet) during 1989 and started supporting
> TCP/IP.
>
> https://doi.org/10.1016/0169-7552(89)90040-8
>
> Regards
> ?? Brian
>
> On 04-Nov-22 07:19, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>> Just looked at the video - yes, it's pretty good.?? A few observations
>> though...
>>
>> - Through the 70s, I worked with or for JCR Licklider.? I never heard
>> anyone call him "JCR Lick".? To VIP visitors at the MIT lab, he was
>> "Professor Licklider".? To everyone who knew him, he was just "Lick".
>> Maybe it was different elsewhere, but never "JCR Lick", at least at MIT
>>
>> - My general impression is that the video is a reasonably accurate
>> account of what happened, or at least some parts of that history. But
>> it's not very good at explaining "How" the Internet happened, or why
>> TCP/IP became the basis for today's Internet after a historic battle of
>> technologies and organizations.? E.g., it mentions OSI when discussing
>> the Web, but neglects to mention any of the other networking
>> developments going on through the 80s - SNA, DecNet, Appletalk, Netware,
>> Vines, X.25/X.75 "internets", and especially XNS, which IMHO was closest
>> in vision to the TCP/IP world.? I expected the "How" of today's Internet
>> to include an explanation of what caused all of those other
>> actitivities, including OSI, to just disappear almost overnight, leaving
>> TCP/IP as the only survivor. The video mentions that OSI "never
>> happened" at CERN, but the same is true of the military environment
>> where it all started - the US military networks were also supposed to
>> migrate to OSI, and in fact the various networks (ARPANET, MILNET, ...)
>> replaced the "1822" interface with standard X.25, as a first step on the
>> migration to OSI.? That was the Plan.? But, like at CERN, that migration
>> also never happened -- Why not...?
>>
>> - There's just a slight reference to the military origins of the
>> Internet, and no explanation of what those early Internet projects were
>> trying to accomplish -- i.e., what was the Internet trying to do 40-50
>> years ago?? E.g., the Packet Radio technology, demos, and deployments
>> aren't mentioned at all.? SATNET was mentioned, but the video ignored
>> the context of its history and plans, such as the deployment to the Navy
>> on an aircraft carrier.? IMHO, the Internet technology was driven by
>> military command-and-control scenarios, and was purposely made "open"
>> for others to use if they chose to do so. The Internet technology was,
>> again IMHO, just adopted by the academic and then commercial world
>> because it was the only one that they could actually use for what they
>> wanted to do, and the needs of the non-military world were close enough
>> to those of the military that TCP/IP fit nicely.
>>
>> - After years of indoctrination by Lick I was thoroughly converted to
>> his view of the "Galactic Network", in which computers and
>> communications synergized to help humans do whatever humans do. His
>> "Galactic Network" vision is very close to what I see today as I type,
>> looking at the screen in front of me, which I think of as "The
>> Internet".? So I disagree with the statement in the video that the Web
>> is not a fundamental part of the Internet, but rather lives "on top of"
>> the Internet.? Packet voice was another important type of network
>> traffic in the 80s, not mentioned at all in the video. Using Web
>> technology for conveying images, and Internet voice technology for
>> conversations, a military operation in the 80s could be envisioned, and
>> today's use of teleconferencing, telemedicine, and such could adopt the
>> same technology for everything people do today.? But the video
>> categorizes technologies such as the Web, or Zoom, Skype, et al, as not
>> being components of "The Internet" any more.?? They are now "apps" that
>> exist "on top of" the Internet. How did that happen...?
>>
>> Jack Haverty
>> MIT (1966-1977), BBN (1977-1990)



From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 11:02:14 2022
From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:02:14 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <866966000.2202668.1667584934996@mail.yahoo.com>

 Besides the confusion others have noted in "transition from 1822 to TCP" I note that for the third ARPAnet node the voice says UCLA and the video shows UCLA Berkley.? Actually, the third node was at University of California Santa Barbara (UCSB).? But as Vint says, the video is "pretty good."
Cheers,Alex

    On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 08:18:27 AM EDT, vinton cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r03AIGRmRAM&t=784s

v
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From dhc at dcrocker.net  Fri Nov  4 11:28:27 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 11:28:27 -0700
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <c2abd465-ff41-f2f3-b445-0e711c67303b@3kitty.org>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
 <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>
 <c2abd465-ff41-f2f3-b445-0e711c67303b@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <76c03c5d-36bd-8ca6-8b03-539e10f3c3a9@dcrocker.net>

On 11/4/2022 10:56 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> Somehow I just can't swallow the need to spend $28 to find out, the 
> price to read the article, but just for 48 hours.

A bit facile, but it is possible that the paywall to the story about the 
failure might serve as an example of one factor in the failure...

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 11:33:30 2022
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 18:33:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <8f7d5ecf-2bf8-0a1b-8092-05b0c5786ab8@tamu.edu>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
 <CAEf-zrijj-iRV8oOgWs6Sb1T27k4Jmy36DtF0SXAnHAK3jceqw@mail.gmail.com>
 <414abc69-b5a8-b714-d11d-de6daf72280b@tamu.edu>
 <474163332.1327349.1667530678865@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1915158045.1366213.1667540557029@mail.yahoo.com>
 <8f7d5ecf-2bf8-0a1b-8092-05b0c5786ab8@tamu.edu>
Message-ID: <517078982.1670550.1667586810434@mail.yahoo.com>

 From what my memory tells me (which could be faulty on this), Sandy is the one who managed to get companies interested in the internet, see its utility, and buy their routers. This was from a brief discussion a long time ago with the same Cisco friend as mentioned below. Tony Li, or anyone else, might care to correct me or add additional info.
barbars
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 06:20:57 AM PDT, Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:  
 
 Barbara,
? This is very interesting, and it's more interesting than the details 
of licenses and litigation.

? When I first met Len in March 1987, he was very proud of Cisco's IGRP 
routing protocol.? It was indeed better than RIP, of course.? Len 
boasted that IGRP combined five different routing metrics, etc.

? Once we had a few Cisco routers at Rice, I wrote a program to watch 
and try to interpret the IGRP packets being broadcast from the routers. 
There were indeed five fields.
? One was a packet delay.? It was sort of in msec, but was a configured 
value at the router rather than measured delay.
? A second was the reciprocal of bandwidth of the line.
? The other three were empty, but I think one was to eventually be 
something like quality or packet loss or such.? I've forgotten if there 
were any clues about the intention of the other fields.
? To the best of my knowledge, IGRP never was upgraded to use the other 
three fields.? But, considering the wide variety of propagation delays 
in the 1980s (geosynchronous satellites vs microwave, for example) and 
the wide variety of bandwidths (9.6 kb/s vs T1, for example), the two 
that IGRP had were an interesting advance.
? But Cisco clearly intended IGRP to be used only in Cisco routers, so 
it had minimal influence on the broader router design space.
? It would indeed be interesting to know more about JJ's contribution 
to IGRP.

? In parallel, it's commonly understood that both Len and Sandy put 
huge effort into Cisco, but Len always seemed more visible and 
outspoken.? It would be interesting to know more about Sandy's 
contributions.

??? -- Guy

On 11/4/22 1:42 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>? Sorry everyone for being cryptic.? I should have checked Wikipedia first.? At the time this happened,? I was asked not to discuss it.? Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.? I was asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see if Cisco could get access to his work.? I was at this meeting as well.
> barbara
>? ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>? 
>? ? Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>>From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.? 
> barbara
> 
>? ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>? 
>? Geoff,
>? ? This is very interesting.
>? ? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early
> hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the
> email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the
> story in some detail.
> 
>? ? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom
> Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b)
> Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
>? ? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous
> things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the
> correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months
> from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions
> that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version)
> Stanford.
>? ? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable
> historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.
> 
>? ? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will
> make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being
> fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work
> on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to
> being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was
> that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I
> think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early
> Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards
> strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as
> little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the
> ground".
>? ? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the
> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.? The sad
> thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going
> cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid
> judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one
> side of the story).
> 
>? ? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came
> about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment
> about who was legally correct.
>? ? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New
> England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.
> 
>? ? All for now.
>? ? ??? -- Guy
> 
> 
> On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history wrote:
>> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
>> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
>> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
>> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
>> 
>> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
>>>then be paging down thru the list of files on the
>> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
>> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
>> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
>> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
>> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
>> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
>> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
>> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
>> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
>> 
>> geoff
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes,
>>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>>> Bill Yeager code.
>>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>>> getting a great deal.
>>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |? |
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> >> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>>> barbara
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>>
>>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
>>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>>
>>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>>
>>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>>> improvements in their heads.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dave,
>>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>>> > story is not very interesting.
>>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>>> > license during 1986.
>>> >
>>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
>>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>>> >
>>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>>> >
>>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>>> > Internet history of interest.
>>> >
>>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>>> >
>>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
>>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>> > >
>>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>>> > >
>>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>> > >
>>> > > d/
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Dave Crocker
>>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> > > bbiw.net
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>><
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>>
>>> > >
>>> > --
>>> > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *****
>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>>> mailing lists.
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>? ? 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>? ? 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
> 
  

From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 12:06:40 2022
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 19:06:40 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
References: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>

 Given JJ's background,? it is understandable why he was looking at these things in his routing work.? He got his PH.D. from University of Hawaii and I believe his thesis advisor was Frank Kuo (ALOHAnet).? He was also in SRI's network group at that time and much of our work involved packet radio technologies (DARPA's Packet Radio/SURAN and the Army's SINCgars packet applique may have been underway when the DUAL work was started).? I was familiar with DUAL at the time but I don't have a recollection who was the funding source.
There was also a strong interest in multi- constraint routing within members of the group too.
barbara
    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 06:20:57 AM PDT, Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:  
 
 Barbara,
? This is very interesting, and it's more interesting than the details 
of licenses and litigation.

? When I first met Len in March 1987, he was very proud of Cisco's IGRP 
routing protocol.? It was indeed better than RIP, of course.? Len 
boasted that IGRP combined five different routing metrics, etc.

? Once we had a few Cisco routers at Rice, I wrote a program to watch 
and try to interpret the IGRP packets being broadcast from the routers. 
There were indeed five fields.
? One was a packet delay.? It was sort of in msec, but was a configured 
value at the router rather than measured delay.
? A second was the reciprocal of bandwidth of the line.
? The other three were empty, but I think one was to eventually be 
something like quality or packet loss or such.? I've forgotten if there 
were any clues about the intention of the other fields.
? To the best of my knowledge, IGRP never was upgraded to use the other 
three fields.? But, considering the wide variety of propagation delays 
in the 1980s (geosynchronous satellites vs microwave, for example) and 
the wide variety of bandwidths (9.6 kb/s vs T1, for example), the two 
that IGRP had were an interesting advance.
? But Cisco clearly intended IGRP to be used only in Cisco routers, so 
it had minimal influence on the broader router design space.
? It would indeed be interesting to know more about JJ's contribution 
to IGRP.

? In parallel, it's commonly understood that both Len and Sandy put 
huge effort into Cisco, but Len always seemed more visible and 
outspoken.? It would be interesting to know more about Sandy's 
contributions.

??? -- Guy

On 11/4/22 1:42 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>? Sorry everyone for being cryptic.? I should have checked Wikipedia first.? At the time this happened,? I was asked not to discuss it.? Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.? I was asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see if Cisco could get access to his work.? I was at this meeting as well.
> barbara
>? ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>? 
>? ? Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>>From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.? 
> barbara
> 
>? ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>? 
>? Geoff,
>? ? This is very interesting.
>? ? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early
> hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the
> email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the
> story in some detail.
> 
>? ? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom
> Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b)
> Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
>? ? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous
> things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the
> correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months
> from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions
> that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version)
> Stanford.
>? ? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable
> historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.
> 
>? ? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will
> make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being
> fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work
> on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to
> being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was
> that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I
> think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early
> Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards
> strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as
> little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the
> ground".
>? ? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the
> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.? The sad
> thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going
> cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid
> judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one
> side of the story).
> 
>? ? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came
> about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment
> about who was legally correct.
>? ? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New
> England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.
> 
>? ? All for now.
>? ? ??? -- Guy
> 
> 
> On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history wrote:
>> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
>> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
>> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
>> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
>> 
>> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
>>>then be paging down thru the list of files on the
>> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
>> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
>> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
>> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
>> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
>> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
>> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
>> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
>> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
>> 
>> geoff
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes,
>>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>>> Bill Yeager code.
>>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>>> getting a great deal.
>>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |? |
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> >> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>>> barbara
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>>
>>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
>>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>>
>>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>>
>>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>>> improvements in their heads.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dave,
>>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>>> > story is not very interesting.
>>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>>> > license during 1986.
>>> >
>>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
>>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>>> >
>>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>>> >
>>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>>> > Internet history of interest.
>>> >
>>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>>> >
>>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
>>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>> > >
>>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>>> > >
>>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>> > >
>>> > > d/
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Dave Crocker
>>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> > > bbiw.net
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>><
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>>
>>> > >
>>> > --
>>> > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *****
>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>>> mailing lists.
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>? ? 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>? ? 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
> 
  

From winowicki at yahoo.com  Fri Nov  4 13:11:48 2022
From: winowicki at yahoo.com (Bill Nowicki)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 20:11:48 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2042073722.25556.1667592708622@mail.yahoo.com>

 
This thread is going a bunch of different directions, making it hard to keep up.
I was good friends with Len but only met Sandy once I recall. She managed the computer systems at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, while Len tried to be a CS grad student and then ran the CS computer facilities. Len was a real "nerd's nerd" which I mean as a compliment. He loved to build cool gadgets. Len did the hardware design, while Sandy did most other stuff like marketing and sales. Kirk Lougheed was brought in to totally rewrite the software along with many others, so not clear how many customers got that original Bill Yeager code. It might have only been Teknowlege, where my wife worked, or at most a few others.
A famous episode is when Sandy had a falling out with the vulture capitalists, they brought in?John Morgridge as the CEO?and fired Sandy. Len quit to show his support. They went separate ways, with Len doing some technical projects, and Sandy funding restoration of Chawton house (Jane Ausen family home), marketing the "Urban Decay" line of cosmetics among other things.
Bill    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 12:07:59 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
 
  Given JJ's background,? it is understandable why he was looking at these things in his routing work.? He got his PH.D. from University of Hawaii and I believe his thesis advisor was Frank Kuo (ALOHAnet).? He was also in SRI's network group at that time and much of our work involved packet radio technologies (DARPA's Packet Radio/SURAN and the Army's SINCgars packet applique may have been underway when the DUAL work was started).? I was familiar with DUAL at the time but I don't have a recollection who was the funding source.
There was also a strong interest in multi- constraint routing within members of the group too.
barbara
? ? On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 06:20:57 AM PDT, Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:? 
 
 Barbara,
? This is very interesting, and it's more interesting than the details 
of licenses and litigation.

? When I first met Len in March 1987, he was very proud of Cisco's IGRP 
routing protocol.? It was indeed better than RIP, of course.? Len 
boasted that IGRP combined five different routing metrics, etc.

? Once we had a few Cisco routers at Rice, I wrote a program to watch 
and try to interpret the IGRP packets being broadcast from the routers. 
There were indeed five fields.
? One was a packet delay.? It was sort of in msec, but was a configured 
value at the router rather than measured delay.
? A second was the reciprocal of bandwidth of the line.
? The other three were empty, but I think one was to eventually be 
something like quality or packet loss or such.? I've forgotten if there 
were any clues about the intention of the other fields.
? To the best of my knowledge, IGRP never was upgraded to use the other 
three fields.? But, considering the wide variety of propagation delays 
in the 1980s (geosynchronous satellites vs microwave, for example) and 
the wide variety of bandwidths (9.6 kb/s vs T1, for example), the two 
that IGRP had were an interesting advance.
? But Cisco clearly intended IGRP to be used only in Cisco routers, so 
it had minimal influence on the broader router design space.
? It would indeed be interesting to know more about JJ's contribution 
to IGRP.

? In parallel, it's commonly understood that both Len and Sandy put 
huge effort into Cisco, but Len always seemed more visible and 
outspoken.? It would be interesting to know more about Sandy's 
contributions.

??? -- Guy

On 11/4/22 1:42 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>? Sorry everyone for being cryptic.? I should have checked Wikipedia first.? At the time this happened,? I was asked not to discuss it.? Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.? I was asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see if Cisco could get access to his work.? I was at this meeting as well.
> barbara
>? ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>? 
>? ? Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's? routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>>From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.? 
> barbara
> 
>? ? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>? 
>? Geoff,
>? ? This is very interesting.
>? ? For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early
> hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the
> email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the
> story in some detail.
> 
>? ? Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom
> Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b)
> Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
>? ? The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous
> things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the
> correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months
> from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions
> that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version)
> Stanford.
>? ? And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable
> historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.
> 
>? ? Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will
> make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being
> fought over was not what I expected.? Most of it was about detailed work
> on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to
> being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.? What I'd expected was
> that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I
> think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early
> Cisco gateways was the big deal.? All the haggling over circuit boards
> strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as
> little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the
> ground".
>? ? Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the
> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.? The sad
> thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going
> cheaper and faster.? This apart from legal issues which I will avoid
> judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one
> side of the story).
> 
>? ? From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came
> about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment
> about who was legally correct.
>? ? And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New
> England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.
> 
>? ? All for now.
>? ? ??? -- Guy
> 
> 
> On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
> Internet-history wrote:
>> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
>> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
>> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
>> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
>> 
>> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
>>>then be paging down thru the list of files on the
>> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
>> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
>> 1986-05-27 15:32? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES]? 1? ? 23040
>> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
>> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
>> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
>> 1988-07-21 14:44? CISCO .MSG [? 1,LES] 20? 311040
>> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
>> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
>> 
>> geoff
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.? And yes,
>>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>>> seminars.? There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>>> Bill Yeager code.
>>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>>> getting a great deal.
>>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>> |
>>> |
>>> |? |
>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>? |
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> >> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>>> then Cisco.? There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>>> barbara
>>>? ? On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>? Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>>
>>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>>> folks who had worked on the routers.? And the routers were actively used
>>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>>
>>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>>
>>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>>> improvements in their heads.
>>>
>>> Craig
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> > Dave,
>>> >? ? The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>>> > wondering why no mention was made of equity.? I hope your memory is
>>> > correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>> >? ? So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>>> > story is not very interesting.
>>> >? ? The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>>> > Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>>> > license during 1986.
>>> >
>>> >? ? By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>>> > At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>>> > second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.? Len Bosack met me
>>> > and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>>> > competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.? Even though the office
>>> > suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>>> >
>>> >? ? We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>>> > never regretted it.? It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>>> > bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>>> > have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>>> > that day.? Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>>> >
>>> >? ? But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>>> > cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>>> > Internet history of interest.
>>> >
>>> >? ? ? ? -- Guy
>>> >
>>> > On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > > On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>> > >>? During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>> > >> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>> > >> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>> > >> Intellectual Property issues.? Evidently there was a settlement that
>>> > >> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>> > >
>>> > > Adding to the rumors...
>>> > >
>>> > > At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>> > > settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>> > >
>>> > > d/
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Dave Crocker
>>> > > Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> > > bbiw.net
>>> > >
>>> > > --
>>> > > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > >
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>><
>>> >
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>>
>>> > >
>>> > --
>>> > Internet-history mailing list
>>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> *****
>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>>> mailing lists.
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>>--
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> -- 
>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>> living as The Truth is True
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >? <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>? ? 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>? ? 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
> 
? 
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
  

From dhc at dcrocker.net  Fri Nov  4 13:17:01 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 13:17:01 -0700
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <2042073722.25556.1667592708622@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2042073722.25556.1667592708622@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <26229636-67e3-8feb-1f5c-748678ff7e42@dcrocker.net>

On 11/4/2022 1:11 PM, Bill Nowicki via Internet-history wrote:
> A famous episode is when Sandy had a falling out with the vulture capitalists, they brought in?John Morgridge as the CEO?and fired Sandy.

Offering another rumor:? at the time, I heard more than one person say 
that Sandy was aggressively alienating the staff.

A milder point is that it is rare for folk who have been good at 
starting a company are also good at growing it to the scale that was 
anticipated at the time of this management change.? The exceptions get a 
lot of notoriety, which tends to produce a misunderstanding of just how 
rare it is.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net



From craig at tereschau.net  Fri Nov  4 13:34:37 2022
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 14:34:37 -0600
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <26229636-67e3-8feb-1f5c-748678ff7e42@dcrocker.net>
References: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>
 <2042073722.25556.1667592708622@mail.yahoo.com>
 <26229636-67e3-8feb-1f5c-748678ff7e42@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4Cep4EvQ+QhSidvYELR42vGQn8P0WeYXBgrtJcYBkoD4Rw@mail.gmail.com>

As I recall, and Wikipedia seems to support in its bios of Lerner and
Morgridge, the process was a bit trickier.

Sandy and Len founded Cisco in 1984.  In 1987 they got a CEO named Bill
Graves.  At the time, I was told Graves was brought in by Cisco's VC folks
to get Cisco to a certain sales level and then would transition out for a
more senior person.  That person was Morgridge, who became CEO in 1988 and
managed the process of getting Cisco to the point it could go public in
1990.  Somewhere in that timeframe Len got sidelined to being the head of a
research team (my recollection is that Len described this to me in a car
ride at an IETF in Boston in 1987, but that may be too early).  I think
Sandy retained a leadership position, but am not sure.

The blowup in 1990 leading to Sandy's departure is well documented.  But
Len (whom I thought highly of as an engineer) was already sidelined.

Craig

On Fri, Nov 4, 2022 at 2:17 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> On 11/4/2022 1:11 PM, Bill Nowicki via Internet-history wrote:
> > A famous episode is when Sandy had a falling out with the vulture
> capitalists, they brought in John Morgridge as the CEO and fired Sandy.
>
> Offering another rumor:  at the time, I heard more than one person say
> that Sandy was aggressively alienating the staff.
>
> A milder point is that it is rare for folk who have been good at
> starting a company are also good at growing it to the scale that was
> anticipated at the time of this management change.  The exceptions get a
> lot of notoriety, which tends to produce a misunderstanding of just how
> rare it is.
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From odlyzko at umn.edu  Fri Nov  4 13:43:25 2022
From: odlyzko at umn.edu (odlyzko at umn.edu)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 15:43:25 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
Message-ID: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2211041539580.1700@math-vinh511.math.umn.edu>

The Brian Carpenter paper that was cited before with URL for
the official publication site

     https://doi.org/10.1016/0169-7552(89)90040-8

which leads to the Elsevier paywall, can be accessed for
free in its preprint form at

     https://cds.cern.ch/record/197332/files/CM-P00059917.pdf

Andrew

P.S.  With thanks to Google Scholar.


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Fri Nov  4 16:01:10 2022
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2022 12:01:10 +1300
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2211041539580.1700@math-vinh511.math.umn.edu>
References: <alpine.DEB.2.21.2211041539580.1700@math-vinh511.math.umn.edu>
Message-ID: <4f42f641-3711-f28f-a402-8dd40a834e81@gmail.com>

Thanks Andrew. As you'll see if you read it, I was still not writing OSI
off completely then (May 1989, when I gave the talk) but the CERN team
was busy ramping up TCP/IP support. That was the year that we renumbered
every TCP/IP host into a "legal" Class B, and established the first
external IP connections.

Regards
    Brian

On 05-Nov-22 09:43, Andrew Odlyzko via Internet-history wrote:
> The Brian Carpenter paper that was cited before with URL for
> the official publication site
> 
>       https://doi.org/10.1016/0169-7552(89)90040-8
> 
> which leads to the Elsevier paywall, can be accessed for
> free in its preprint form at
> 
>       https://cds.cern.ch/record/197332/files/CM-P00059917.pdf
> 
> Andrew
> 
> P.S.  With thanks to Google Scholar.


From jeanjour at comcast.net  Fri Nov  4 17:13:09 2022
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 20:13:09 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrgqrjGhO4o6dk0t4Xn7nAviofBmoYu4tYzbkCvNScimLg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAEf-zrgqrjGhO4o6dk0t4Xn7nAviofBmoYu4tYzbkCvNScimLg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C698A234-D6B9-4B3C-8459-490078E871DE@comcast.net>

Catching up.

Speaking of bugs, I heard a rumor that to get more speed cisco routers didn?t bother locking out interrupts while moving packets in and out of queues.  Any truth to it?

> On Nov 3, 2022, at 11:23, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> in furtherance of Guy's relating that "... It was neat being able to call
> cisco to report a
> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
> that day..."
> 
> it was related to yours truly -- by a "a sngle-digit-employee-number
> person" -- when we were driving by Len & Sandy's house one day in Menlo
> Park that the "secret" to cisco's expeditious customer support was (1) that
> the entire engineering staff was on the customer support email address and
> thus would see customer "issues" as they were reported and would thereby
> directly attend to their "fixage" as they came in and (2) that the 24/7 800
> # phone line -- after hours -- rang a phone at Len's bedside...
> geoff
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 8:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> Dave,
>>   The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>> wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
>> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>   So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>> story is not very interesting.
>>   The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>> license during 1986.
>> 
>>   By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
>> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
>> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>> 
>>   We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>> never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>> that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>> 
>>   But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>> Internet history of interest.
>> 
>>        -- Guy
>> 
>> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>> On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>  During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>>> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>>> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>>> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
>>>> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>> 
>>> Adding to the rumors...
>>> 
>>> At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>> settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>> 
>>> d/
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dave Crocker
>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> bbiw.net
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From jeanjour at comcast.net  Fri Nov  4 17:20:16 2022
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2022 20:20:16 -0400
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <CAEf-zrgrf91Zky=ZTtd2F_x9YeDEdptLMOh1X7ONmJRKUO2vpg@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw4GV3jWaW7vJe_t9hMLR+EvkWU_6Eoe8SDdqUcdu_f8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <19489474.2624258.1667409611325@mail.yahoo.com>
 <fc0aa6b6-dc56-dd4c-4ca0-3163f239f0cc@tamu.edu>
 <21fbf849-4706-5dfe-be7d-ab08b9651234@dcrocker.net>
 <496396e1-35eb-93ea-de65-8f570d165568@tamu.edu>
 <CAHQj4CezM1-eiScD3ZA9HwPqYiFBb3ZUhxynQ2y4nw662Ue8_w@mail.gmail.com>
 <642318845.372909.1667494235805@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1686855615.3053165.1667499233675@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <561A689C-16F7-4133-88DC-793A082A365F@comcast.net>

In the 84-86 timeframe, Codex built a VME 68K router for Project Athena. I know Codex and have heard that others (including BBN) were  advocating building routers. but marketing consistently argued there was no market for one. We could all see they were wrong but had no data to prove it.  As always, marketing had 20-20 vision in the rearview mirror.

> On Nov 3, 2022, at 14:13, Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually, Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.  And yes, most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer" seminars.  There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any Bill Yeager code. 
> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were getting a great deal.
> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
> 
> 
> | 
> | 
> |  | 
> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
> 
> 
> |
> 
> |
> 
> |
> 
> 
> https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it
> 
> 
> Bill
>    On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
> 
>  At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and then Cisco.  There were other sources of early technology transfer.
> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
> barbara
>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:  
> 
> Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
> 
> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
> folks who had worked on the routers.  And the routers were actively used
> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
> 
> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
> 
> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
> improvements in their heads.
> 
> Craig
> 
> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> Dave,
>>     The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>> wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
>> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>     So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>> story is not very interesting.
>>     The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>> license during 1986.
>> 
>>     By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
>> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
>> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>> 
>>     We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>> never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>> that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>> 
>>     But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>> Internet history of interest.
>> 
>>         -- Guy
>> 
>> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>> On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>   During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>>> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>>> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>>> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
>>>> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>> 
>>> Adding to the rumors...
>>> 
>>> At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>> settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>> 
>>> d/
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Dave Crocker
>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> bbiw.net
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> 
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>> <
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>> 
>>> 
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> *****
> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
> mailing lists.
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>   
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Sat Nov  5 13:50:12 2022
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2022 09:50:12 +1300
Subject: [ih] pretty good video on internet history
In-Reply-To: <c2abd465-ff41-f2f3-b445-0e711c67303b@3kitty.org>
References: <CAAFtm_UGdWQX3ooO1fz2HrZ5kNBtW1Ac8aWyErpqD_CZto6d6g@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zri-To_KGMb3hgSbudc8un9_0FKaP_MWqTh0c3juR1aHZw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAAFtm_VjrdqO22mYzjmP7LEe4e1WCa4sHSA=gp9koT0Lx3+Lrg@mail.gmail.com>
 <f34c1077-768c-63da-15d4-8c9036d6f47f@dcrocker.net>
 <8cd8065e-1290-ecab-9caa-0c9ecfc3cf94@3kitty.org>
 <06f7cf3b-16dd-279d-5a81-1d555ab045cc@gmail.com>
 <c2abd465-ff41-f2f3-b445-0e711c67303b@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <03760def-b93a-cb59-891d-28c63bff6555@gmail.com>

This reached my inbox out of sequence, due to some over-enthusiastic
spam filtering by Gmail.

On 05-Nov-22 06:56, Jack Haverty wrote:
> Perhaps that paper on doi.org explains why OSI was abandoned in favor of
> TCP.? It's possibly an important part of the History of the Internet.

Not really. It's actually rather lightweight, but it was part of the
process of the European networking community digging out of its
political embroilment with OSI. Most of us knew by then that OSI wasn't
going to make it, but government and European Commission R&D money tended
to come with OSI strings attached. So we had to be diplomatic.

A more significant document was never formally published:
"Report to RARE CoA on TCP/IP" by B.Carpenter, L.Backstrom, G.Pujolle
(assisted by P.Kirstein), RARE COA(90)12, 22 January 1990.

(For RARE, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TERENA)

This report recommended that RARE should recognise "the TCP/IP family
of protocols as an open multi-vendor suite, well suited to scientific
and technical applications, which offers some facilities not available
with OSI today" and so on.

The report is currently unknown to Google. I will shortly post
it at https://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~brian/RARE-TCP-IP-report.txt

> Somehow I just can't swallow the need to spend $28 to find out, the
> price to read the article, but just for 48 hours. Rather expensive
> "collimator" of history.

Sorry. I didn't realise how ridiculous the Elsevier paywall is. Pretty much
everything I wrote with a CERN official document number is somewhere in
the https://cds.cern.ch/ archive.

    Brian

>?? Hmmm, perhaps it's on Amazon.
> 
> Jack
> 
> On 11/3/22 12:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> Everybody has their own version of history, I guess, and I agree that
>> the video is a view through a very specific collimator. I enjoyed it,
>> though.
>>
>>> The video mentions that OSI "never happened" at CERN
>>
>> Actually we got as close as anybody, because we did deploy DECnet
>> Phase V. But additionally to what the video said, the *reason*
>> TimBL could invent the web was because we more or less abandoned
>> OSI (except for DECnet) during 1989 and started supporting
>> TCP/IP.
>>
>> https://doi.org/10.1016/0169-7552(89)90040-8
>>
>> Regards
>>  ?? Brian
>>
>> On 04-Nov-22 07:19, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Just looked at the video - yes, it's pretty good.?? A few observations
>>> though...
>>>
>>> - Through the 70s, I worked with or for JCR Licklider.? I never heard
>>> anyone call him "JCR Lick".? To VIP visitors at the MIT lab, he was
>>> "Professor Licklider".? To everyone who knew him, he was just "Lick".
>>> Maybe it was different elsewhere, but never "JCR Lick", at least at MIT
>>>
>>> - My general impression is that the video is a reasonably accurate
>>> account of what happened, or at least some parts of that history. But
>>> it's not very good at explaining "How" the Internet happened, or why
>>> TCP/IP became the basis for today's Internet after a historic battle of
>>> technologies and organizations.? E.g., it mentions OSI when discussing
>>> the Web, but neglects to mention any of the other networking
>>> developments going on through the 80s - SNA, DecNet, Appletalk, Netware,
>>> Vines, X.25/X.75 "internets", and especially XNS, which IMHO was closest
>>> in vision to the TCP/IP world.? I expected the "How" of today's Internet
>>> to include an explanation of what caused all of those other
>>> actitivities, including OSI, to just disappear almost overnight, leaving
>>> TCP/IP as the only survivor. The video mentions that OSI "never
>>> happened" at CERN, but the same is true of the military environment
>>> where it all started - the US military networks were also supposed to
>>> migrate to OSI, and in fact the various networks (ARPANET, MILNET, ...)
>>> replaced the "1822" interface with standard X.25, as a first step on the
>>> migration to OSI.? That was the Plan.? But, like at CERN, that migration
>>> also never happened -- Why not...?
>>>
>>> - There's just a slight reference to the military origins of the
>>> Internet, and no explanation of what those early Internet projects were
>>> trying to accomplish -- i.e., what was the Internet trying to do 40-50
>>> years ago?? E.g., the Packet Radio technology, demos, and deployments
>>> aren't mentioned at all.? SATNET was mentioned, but the video ignored
>>> the context of its history and plans, such as the deployment to the Navy
>>> on an aircraft carrier.? IMHO, the Internet technology was driven by
>>> military command-and-control scenarios, and was purposely made "open"
>>> for others to use if they chose to do so. The Internet technology was,
>>> again IMHO, just adopted by the academic and then commercial world
>>> because it was the only one that they could actually use for what they
>>> wanted to do, and the needs of the non-military world were close enough
>>> to those of the military that TCP/IP fit nicely.
>>>
>>> - After years of indoctrination by Lick I was thoroughly converted to
>>> his view of the "Galactic Network", in which computers and
>>> communications synergized to help humans do whatever humans do. His
>>> "Galactic Network" vision is very close to what I see today as I type,
>>> looking at the screen in front of me, which I think of as "The
>>> Internet".? So I disagree with the statement in the video that the Web
>>> is not a fundamental part of the Internet, but rather lives "on top of"
>>> the Internet.? Packet voice was another important type of network
>>> traffic in the 80s, not mentioned at all in the video. Using Web
>>> technology for conveying images, and Internet voice technology for
>>> conversations, a military operation in the 80s could be envisioned, and
>>> today's use of teleconferencing, telemedicine, and such could adopt the
>>> same technology for everything people do today.? But the video
>>> categorizes technologies such as the Web, or Zoom, Skype, et al, as not
>>> being components of "The Internet" any more.?? They are now "apps" that
>>> exist "on top of" the Internet. How did that happen...?
>>>
>>> Jack Haverty
>>> MIT (1966-1977), BBN (1977-1990)
> 

From gregskinner0 at icloud.com  Mon Nov  7 16:34:58 2022
From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner)
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2022 16:34:58 -0800
Subject: [ih] The linux router project and wifi routers
In-Reply-To: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1405057789.5756.1667588800395.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1405057789.5756.1667588800395@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F363FB21-B5E7-47BF-86DE-7DD9E66FF364@icloud.com>

(Not sure if this will make it to the list because I?m still having problems posting to it)

Charles Hedrick, then of Rutgers, did similar studies of IGRP using packet traces.  He wrote a tech note about it:

http://dbillings.com/networking/IGRP_Intro.pdf <http://dbillings.com/networking/IGRP_Intro.pdf>

?gregbo

> On Nov 4, 2022, at 12:06 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Given JJ's background,  it is understandable why he was looking at these things in his routing work.  He got his PH.D. from University of Hawaii and I believe his thesis advisor was Frank Kuo (ALOHAnet).  He was also in SRI's network group at that time and much of our work involved packet radio technologies (DARPA's Packet Radio/SURAN and the Army's SINCgars packet applique may have been underway when the DUAL work was started).  I was familiar with DUAL at the time but I don't have a recollection who was the funding source.
> There was also a strong interest in multi- constraint routing within members of the group too.
> barbara
>    On Friday, November 4, 2022 at 06:20:57 AM PDT, Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu> wrote:  
> 
> Barbara,
>   This is very interesting, and it's more interesting than the details 
> of licenses and litigation.
> 
>   When I first met Len in March 1987, he was very proud of Cisco's IGRP 
> routing protocol.  It was indeed better than RIP, of course.  Len 
> boasted that IGRP combined five different routing metrics, etc.
> 
>   Once we had a few Cisco routers at Rice, I wrote a program to watch 
> and try to interpret the IGRP packets being broadcast from the routers. 
> There were indeed five fields.
>   One was a packet delay.  It was sort of in msec, but was a configured 
> value at the router rather than measured delay.
>   A second was the reciprocal of bandwidth of the line.
>   The other three were empty, but I think one was to eventually be 
> something like quality or packet loss or such.  I've forgotten if there 
> were any clues about the intention of the other fields.
>   To the best of my knowledge, IGRP never was upgraded to use the other 
> three fields.  But, considering the wide variety of propagation delays 
> in the 1980s (geosynchronous satellites vs microwave, for example) and 
> the wide variety of bandwidths (9.6 kb/s vs T1, for example), the two 
> that IGRP had were an interesting advance.
>   But Cisco clearly intended IGRP to be used only in Cisco routers, so 
> it had minimal influence on the broader router design space.
>   It would indeed be interesting to know more about JJ's contribution 
> to IGRP.
> 
>   In parallel, it's commonly understood that both Len and Sandy put 
> huge effort into Cisco, but Len always seemed more visible and 
> outspoken.  It would be interesting to know more about Sandy's 
> contributions.
> 
>     -- Guy
> 
> On 11/4/22 1:42 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:
>>   Sorry everyone for being cryptic.  I should have checked Wikipedia first.  At the time this happened,  I was asked not to discuss it.  Anyway, EIGRP was based on JJ Garcia-Luna- Aceves' Routing Update ALgorithm(DUAL). JJ was at SRI. Perhaps you already knew this.  I was asked by a friend working at Cisco to set up a meeting with JJ to see if Cisco could get access to his work.  I was at this meeting as well.
>> barbara
>>       On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:24:11 PM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>   
>>     Unfortunately I feel I can't relate a story regarding Cisco's  routing software. I think it is okay to say its lineage is probably different than what you think.
>>> From what I remember, Sandy Lerner played a significant part in getting the company off the ground.  
>> barbara
>> 
>>       On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 06:13:54 PM PDT, Guy Almes via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>   
>>   Geoff,
>>     This is very interesting.
>>     For those sufficiently interested in the details of how Cisco's early
>> hardware and software relate to Stanford (and SUN Microsystems) IP, the
>> email thread referred to below tell (at least the Stanford side of) the
>> story in some detail.
>> 
>>     Earlier today, I'd expressed some confusion about how (a) Tom
>> Rindfleisch had mentioned Cisco licensing Stanford IP in 1986 and (b)
>> Stanford considering litigation against Cisco in spring 1987.
>>     The Reader's Digest version includes that (a) there were numerous
>> things that Cisco should have licensed from Stanford and getting the
>> correct licenses in place was a process that ran for about 12 months
>> from spring 1986 to spring 1987, while (b) a number of Cisco's actions
>> that transcended licensing issues continued to irritate (mild version)
>> Stanford.
>>     And, while the information from <saildart.org> is very valuable
>> historically, it does tell (only) one side of the story.
>> 
>>     Without taking a stance on where credit/blame should fall, I will
>> make one simple observation: at least in hindsight, what was being
>> fought over was not what I expected.  Most of it was about detailed work
>> on printed circuit boards that were modern but not with any big claim to
>> being patent-able or otherwise huge in import.  What I'd expected was
>> that the routing software was the big deal and, viewed decades later, I
>> think that Stanford Univ Network software as a basis for the very early
>> Cisco gateways was the big deal.  All the haggling over circuit boards
>> strikes me (again from decades of hindsight) as Bosack trying to pay as
>> little as possible to get the Cisco gateway/router business "off the
>> ground".
>>     Bosack deserves credit for understanding how big a business the
>> router business would soon be and the urgency to get it going.  The sad
>> thing is the graceless way he grabbed Stanford IP to get it going
>> cheaper and faster.  This apart from legal issues which I will avoid
>> judging (at least since the <saildart.org> archives vividly paint one
>> side of the story).
>> 
>>     From an Internet History point of view, understanding how this came
>> about is of legitimate interest, again apart from forming a judgment
>> about who was legally correct.
>>     And, to be clear, Cisco was not the first: Proteon over in New
>> England was designing / building / shipping routers in parallel.
>> 
>>     All for now.
>>         -- Guy
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/3/22 2:35 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
>> Internet-history wrote:
>>> vis-a-vis "The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned
>>> that Len had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities
>>> he supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit
>>> out this informally, including an email thread from the time."
>>> 
>>> the complete email thread from the time can be seen by going to
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$> >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.saildart.org/*5B1,LES*5D/__;JSU!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2dTU_I6w$>
>>>> then be paging down thru the list of files on the
>>> left hand side of your screen until you start seeing a
>>> series of "CISCO.MSG" files... beginning with
>>> 1986-05-27 15:32  CISCO .MSG [  1,LES]  1    23040
>>> ***BUT/HOWEVER, keep on paging down the
>>> list of CISCO.MSG files until you get to the
>>> final "CISCO.MSG" file at
>>> 1988-07-21 14:44  CISCO .MSG [  1,LES] 20  311040
>>> then if you click on this "CISCO.MSG" you'll then see
>>> everything regarding this "history" from the beginning.
>>> 
>>> geoff
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 11:14 AM Bill Nowicki via Internet-history <
>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, the details might not have been public at the time, since it might
>>>> have looked bad. What I meant was that about once a year the claim by Cisco
>>>> marketing that they "invented" the multi-protocol router comes up. Usually,
>>>> Noel Chiappa points out that MIT had one earlier (Stanford even had at
>>>> least two of those, based on the PDP-11 and MIT-written software) before
>>>> then. I see such a discussion on this list in 2017 for example.  And yes,
>>>> most of the early 1980 efforts used concepts from the Xerox PARC PUP
>>>> architecture. PARC was on Stanford land, a short bike ride up the hill. I
>>>> was a summer intern at Xerox, and bunches of us went up to the "dealer"
>>>> seminars.  There were various meetings with people from MIT, CMU, ISI and
>>>> other DARPA contractors, where ideas were freely interchanged.
>>>> Cisco's first product, by the way, was an Ethernet adapter for the Massbus
>>>> on a DecSystem-20, but re-using the router hardware and software gave them
>>>> a head start on the router business. By late 1986 it became a three-way
>>>> discussion between Sun, Cisco and Stanford office of technology licensing
>>>> (OTL). It was complicated by the fact that Andy had tried to license the
>>>> original Stanford design (funded by NSF and DARPA), but OTL said patents
>>>> would be hard since it was a modular design with standard parts! There was
>>>> at least one patent on the graphics board, but Cisco did not use the
>>>> graphics board. Andy Bechtolscheim had been at the Sun Microsystems company
>>>> for a while (I was too by then). His hardware design had diverged from Len
>>>> Bosack's, and Cisco ended up totally rewriting their software without any
>>>> Bill Yeager code.
>>>> The director of the AI Lab, Lester Ernest, mostly was concerned that Len
>>>> had been collecting his Stanford salary and using the facilities he
>>>> supposedly managed to design the Cisco variant. Les has published a bit out
>>>> this informally, including an email thread from the time. Most of the bad
>>>> feelings went under the bridge due to the large discount that Cisco and Sun
>>>> gave to Stanford, making the university a flagship beta customer. Cisco was
>>>> trying to position themselves as the "high end" with high list prices and
>>>> discounts negotiated to each customer so they each thought they were
>>>> getting a great deal.
>>>> If nothing else, there were follow-on "gifts" (which could be tax
>>>> deductible!) including endowing a professorship. I did find these:
>>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> |
>>>> |
>>>> |  |
>>>> Cisco endows professorship in information technology
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>   |
>>>> 
>>>>   |
>>>> 
>>>>   |
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$> >> >> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.quora.com/Did-Cisco-actually-invent-the-modern-router-Or-did-they-just-perfected-it__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP1tS1kYjw$>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> Bill
>>>>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 09:53:39 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via
>>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>   At least one of those people worked at SRI before moving to Stanford and
>>>> then Cisco.  There were other sources of early technology transfer.
>>>> Later on I was also asked by the military to try to get early commercial
>>>> router vendors to support one protocol they were interested in.
>>>> barbara
>>>>     On Thursday, November 3, 2022 at 08:54:55 AM PDT, Craig Partridge via
>>>> Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>   Perhaps helpful with the archaeology.
>>>> 
>>>> Several of the single digit employees at Cisco were former Stanford IT
>>>> folks who had worked on the routers.  And the routers were actively used
>>>> for research -- people were periodically making enhancements based on new
>>>> research and then getting them deployed in the Stanford routers.
>>>> 
>>>> I remember one person who leveraged the routers for research despairing as
>>>> all the folks who had supported his research were now at Cisco.
>>>> 
>>>> So, and purely speculating, there may have been concerns about a continuing
>>>> transfer of knowledge/ideas post any initial license as Stanford employees
>>>> who were engaged in improving the Stanford devices then went to Cisco, with
>>>> improvements in their heads.
>>>> 
>>>> Craig
>>>> 
>>>> On Thu, Nov 3, 2022 at 9:07 AM Guy Almes via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> Dave,
>>>>>     The word I heard went into some detail on the discounts, but I recall
>>>>> wondering why no mention was made of equity.  I hope your memory is
>>>>> correct and that Stanford did get some equity.
>>>>>     So, in itself, the "Stanford thought about suing them but didn't"
>>>>> story is not very interesting.
>>>>>     The more interesting thing would be why they were upset at cisco.
>>>>> Particularly given Tom's account stating that cisco had received a
>>>>> license during 1986.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     By the way, I still recall my initial visit to cisco in March 1987.
>>>>> At the time, all of cisco was in a suite of offices and lab space on the
>>>>> second floor of a nondescript building in Menlo Park.  Len Bosack met me
>>>>> and stressed (a) the advanced nature of their routers vis a vis the
>>>>> competition and (b) his ambition for cisco.  Even though the office
>>>>> suite was loosely furnished, his Board Room included a map of the world.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     We ended up placing a huge (seven routers) order with cisco and I
>>>>> never regretted it.  It was neat being able to call cisco to report a
>>>>> bug, getting a sngle-digit-employee-number person to answer the call and
>>>>> have a new version of the software without the bug by close of business
>>>>> that day.  Needless to say, that didn't last for more than a year or so.
>>>>> 
>>>>>     But I also recall friends at Stanford being very critical of the
>>>>> cisco-Stanford relationship during this period, so it's definitely
>>>>> Internet history of interest.
>>>>> 
>>>>>         -- Guy
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 11/3/22 9:05 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> On 11/3/2022 5:52 AM, Guy Almes via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>   During spring 1987, however, when I was shopping for routers for an
>>>>>>> NSFnet regional network, I was made aware of quite a bit of
>>>>>>> uncertainty about whether Stanford was going to sue cisco over some
>>>>>>> Intellectual Property issues.  Evidently there was a settlement that
>>>>>>> gave Stanford a discount on buying cisco routers.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Adding to the rumors...
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> At the time, I heard all of the above, with the closure being that the
>>>>>> settlement was Stanford's getting some cisco shares.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> d/
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Dave Crocker
>>>>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>>>>> bbiw.net
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>> <
>>>>> 
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$ >>>>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!BhF0ReQHMaqoADPF_U5qv64gz2QkgRzsfjNXf3lxD3_pDoZEM9E7yGatUubyNFwDqrjZ0I84Z04rdpTZI1b9NHMpyQw-1A$
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> *****
>>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
>>>> mailing lists.
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>> 
>>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >> >> >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
>>> living as The Truth is True
>>> -- 
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$> >  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!HSdKGlpgiEyELxfCJMsw3qM7bEuYecJZB4MeVDzWxcUqjmPyqAnlxV0XYQWDqVoJP6rdTj1BjR-NWCAlntZTMP2Mo0lD_A$>
>>>> 
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>>     
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>>     
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history__;!!KwNVnqRv!H7aIyc0I7z0LNgiJBrWxyFadLTuv2ZbtrtH1Rag4O4f0RX7v_zLIR4MEoIDGN9EqqvggurteXVb87epOdvppaXJSrEN67w$>
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From dave.taht at gmail.com  Thu Nov 24 23:34:56 2022
From: dave.taht at gmail.com (Dave Taht)
Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2022 23:34:56 -0800
Subject: [ih] Alice's protocol
Message-ID: <CAA93jw5utBq8qRxxOyRVT0AvtUNPdszRri8YKJQxxpu=KOtqwQ@mail.gmail.com>

This play on alices restaurant just went by and it is genius.

 Https://queer.party/@marnanel/109382995587846285

Happy Thanksgiving everyone!


From touch at strayalpha.com  Fri Nov 25 08:35:58 2022
From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com)
Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2022 08:35:58 -0800
Subject: [ih] Alice's protocol
In-Reply-To: <CAA93jw5v+g8xtCfbMWRHVpGgoi5n2XqcmKLOEFKXd5Dnw9Ltnw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA93jw5utBq8qRxxOyRVT0AvtUNPdszRri8YKJQxxpu=KOtqwQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAA93jw5v+g8xtCfbMWRHVpGgoi5n2XqcmKLOEFKXd5Dnw9Ltnw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <11114227-CA37-4F1A-865B-61F508B548DD@strayalpha.com>

As a second reminder to Dave and a reminder to the list:

	This list is for discussions of Internet History.

Joe (as list admin


From jtk at dataplane.org  Tue Nov 29 12:23:38 2022
From: jtk at dataplane.org (John Kristoff)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 14:23:38 -0600
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
Message-ID: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>

My earliest memory, because that is the time of my entry into the
field, of duplicate address detection was done on Token Ring networks
during ring insertion (phase 2 - address verification).  More recently
IPv6 has duplicate address detection (dad).

I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
mechanisms.  I imagine there were some predating what I remember about
Token Ring, but this is the kind of thing that is difficult to uncover
without some hints. Any pointers to the earliest of these functions in
networking?

Thanks kindly,

John


From agmalis at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 12:43:08 2022
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:43:08 -0500
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>

John,

ARP (RFC 826) trivially enables duplicate IPv4 address detection on
Ethernet networks (just ARP for your own address and see if anyone else
responds), so I guess November 1982 for IP over Ethernet.

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 3:23 PM John Kristoff via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> My earliest memory, because that is the time of my entry into the
> field, of duplicate address detection was done on Token Ring networks
> during ring insertion (phase 2 - address verification).  More recently
> IPv6 has duplicate address detection (dad).
>
> I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
> mechanisms.  I imagine there were some predating what I remember about
> Token Ring, but this is the kind of thing that is difficult to uncover
> without some hints. Any pointers to the earliest of these functions in
> networking?
>
> Thanks kindly,
>
> John
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From touch at strayalpha.com  Tue Nov 29 12:50:05 2022
From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 12:50:05 -0800
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>

Hi, Andy,

Using ARP as duplicate address detection has an unintended and possibly dangerous consequence.

If you ARP your own address, you are also broadcasting the IP/Ethernet association of your endpoint as the requesting party. That can flush caches elsewhere and cause traffic to the previous owner of that endpoint to fail - in some cases (and surprisingly) that includes the endpoint that had that address in the first place.

So I don?t think that qualifies as ?safe? duplicate address detection and I wouldn?t say that this would be an origin of that concept, as a result.

YMMV.

Joe

?
Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist
www.strayalpha.com

> On Nov 29, 2022, at 12:43 PM, Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> John,
> 
> ARP (RFC 826) trivially enables duplicate IPv4 address detection on
> Ethernet networks (just ARP for your own address and see if anyone else
> responds), so I guess November 1982 for IP over Ethernet.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 3:23 PM John Kristoff via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> My earliest memory, because that is the time of my entry into the
>> field, of duplicate address detection was done on Token Ring networks
>> during ring insertion (phase 2 - address verification).  More recently
>> IPv6 has duplicate address detection (dad).
>> 
>> I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
>> mechanisms.  I imagine there were some predating what I remember about
>> Token Ring, but this is the kind of thing that is difficult to uncover
>> without some hints. Any pointers to the earliest of these functions in
>> networking?
>> 
>> Thanks kindly,
>> 
>> John
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From agmalis at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 13:03:15 2022
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 16:03:15 -0500
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU0W3BytCjouKAWRjqzGMt1KYB8yrZvYgPwKTXLQ9XDPFg@mail.gmail.com>

Joe,

Since ARP preceded DHCP by about a decade, give or take, early IP address
duplication would most likely have been the result of manual
misconfiguration. Having such  misconfiguration as visible as possible
would have been a good thing so that it could be quickly corrected.

Cheers,
Andy

On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 3:50 PM touch at strayalpha.com <touch at strayalpha.com>
wrote:

> Hi, Andy,
>
> Using ARP as duplicate address detection has an unintended and possibly
> dangerous consequence.
>
> If you ARP your own address, you are also broadcasting the IP/Ethernet
> association of your endpoint as the requesting party. That can flush caches
> elsewhere and cause traffic to the previous owner of that endpoint to fail
> - in some cases (and surprisingly) that includes the endpoint that had that
> address in the first place.
>
> So I don?t think that qualifies as ?safe? duplicate address detection and
> I wouldn?t say that this would be an origin of that concept, as a result.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Joe
>
> ?
> Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist
> www.strayalpha.com
>
> On Nov 29, 2022, at 12:43 PM, Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> John,
>
> ARP (RFC 826) trivially enables duplicate IPv4 address detection on
> Ethernet networks (just ARP for your own address and see if anyone else
> responds), so I guess November 1982 for IP over Ethernet.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 3:23 PM John Kristoff via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> My earliest memory, because that is the time of my entry into the
> field, of duplicate address detection was done on Token Ring networks
> during ring insertion (phase 2 - address verification).  More recently
> IPv6 has duplicate address detection (dad).
>
> I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
> mechanisms.  I imagine there were some predating what I remember about
> Token Ring, but this is the kind of thing that is difficult to uncover
> without some hints. Any pointers to the earliest of these functions in
> networking?
>
> Thanks kindly,
>
> John
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
>


From jtk at dataplane.org  Tue Nov 29 13:06:20 2022
From: jtk at dataplane.org (John Kristoff)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:06:20 -0600
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20221129150620.6bdfb5cf@dataplane.org>

On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:43:08 -0500
"Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis at gmail.com> wrote:

> ARP (RFC 826) trivially enables duplicate IPv4 address detection on
> Ethernet networks (just ARP for your own address and see if anyone
> else responds), so I guess November 1982 for IP over Ethernet.

I had thought of ARP, but wasn't it's use for duplicate address
detection essentially a "hack" that came later?

John


From beebe at math.utah.edu  Tue Nov 29 13:10:42 2022
From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 14:10:42 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
Message-ID: <CMM.0.95.0.1669756242.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>

John Kristoff asks about duplicate address detection, and mentions his
work on that problem on Token Ring networks.

I just searched our rfc*.txt archives, and found scores of files that
match (ignoring case) "duplicate *address"; the earliest are these
five:

	rfc1231.txt
	rfc1285.txt
	rfc1512.txt
	rfc1513.txt
	rfc1743.txt

The first of those is about John's Token Ring example, and dates from
May 1991.  The fifth is from December 1994.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                                                          -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From agmalis at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 13:15:06 2022
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 16:15:06 -0500
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <20221129150620.6bdfb5cf@dataplane.org>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <20221129150620.6bdfb5cf@dataplane.org>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU2YFYzqMTO6WiKgqMvRmi3wJhTOzJ7xhxRZqWcFa-8pVQ@mail.gmail.com>

John,

Perhaps, but one would probably need to examine early TCP/IP stacks to
determine when it came into use,

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 4:06 PM John Kristoff via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:43:08 -0500
> "Andrew G. Malis" <agmalis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ARP (RFC 826) trivially enables duplicate IPv4 address detection on
> > Ethernet networks (just ARP for your own address and see if anyone
> > else responds), so I guess November 1982 for IP over Ethernet.
>
> I had thought of ARP, but wasn't it's use for duplicate address
> detection essentially a "hack" that came later?
>
> John
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From jtk at dataplane.org  Tue Nov 29 13:24:43 2022
From: jtk at dataplane.org (John Kristoff)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:24:43 -0600
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.95.0.1669756242.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CMM.0.95.0.1669756242.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <20221129152443.4f2dbca3@dataplane.org>

On Tue, 29 Nov 2022 14:10:42 -0700
"Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history"
<internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> The first of those is about John's Token Ring example, and dates from
> May 1991.  The fifth is from December 1994.

This may be wade into pre-Internet packet networking history since I
know IBM's version of this appeared in the mid 80's.  If that was the
first real implementation of it so be it.  That would be an interesting
and satisfactory milestone for me.

John


From jack at 3kitty.org  Tue Nov 29 13:51:42 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 13:51:42 -0800
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>
Message-ID: <b2e0368b-361b-1716-fae2-d9adf8f0f627@3kitty.org>

I'm surprised (and disappointed) if this "feature" still exists.

Back in the mid 80s, we created a simple software tool we called a 
"Flakeway".? The purpose was to simulate network problems in order to 
test out a TCP's ability to deal with IP datagrams that were actually 
dropped, reordered, duplicated, or otherwise mangled in transit.? 
Computers directly connected to the ARPANET never encountered such 
conditions, so we looked for a way to create them in order to see if a 
TCP implementation really worked.

Such a tool would be most useful if it didn't require changes anywhere 
in the existing equipment.? Ideally it would work by somehow inserting 
itself into the normal path for traffic between two computers 
interacting using TCP, without those computers knowing that it was there.

By exploiting the behavior of ARP and common host implementations that 
Joe mentioned, we created "Flakeway" software.?? Typically we would run 
it on a machine with an Ethernet interface that could deal with lots of 
traffic, and which could be put in "promiscuous mode" so that the 
Flakeway would receive all Ethernet traffic regardless of its 
addresses.?? The constraint for using the tool was that at least one of 
the computers under test had to be connected to the same Ethernet 
segment, so that all its traffic would be visible at the Flakeway's 
Ethernet interface.? At the time, Sun workstations ("SPARCs") were 
typically available and met the requirements.

Flakeway would start watching all Ethernet traffic (much like Wireshark 
today), and then issue an ARP request for the computer being tested.? On 
receiving the ARP reply, it would immediately send its own ARP reply for 
that same IP address, but specifying itself as the appropriate Ethernet 
target address.? As Joe noted, computers typically flush their address 
caches on seeing new ARP information, and use the most recent response 
for any subsequent traffic they send to that IP address.

After completing this setup, all the interesting traffic now flows to 
the Flakeway machine, which can simply retransmit it to the real 
Ethernet address of the computer being tested.?? Other than a slight 
increase in delay, nothing much changes.? By performing the same 
procedure for a (real) gateway's Ethernet address, the Flakeway could 
insert itself into the datagram pathway for traffic in both 
directions.?? To do the testing, we then set it up so it could delay, 
duplicate, reorder, discard, and otherwise mangle the IP traffic flow to 
see how the TCPs dealt with such problems (as they were designed to do).

This tool was very useful.? Programming it took only a day or two. But 
it did seem to reveal a vulnerability in the protocols.? E.g., you could 
easily pretend to be any other Internet computer and possibly convince 
some user to enter sensitive information or do other nasty things.

This was all reported, quietly, to IETF, so it could be fixed. 
Meanwhile, it was a useful tool.? About ten years later, in the early 
90s, I tried using the tool again and discovered that it still worked.?? 
I don't know if that was because the protocols hadn't been improved, or 
because the computers involved weren't up to date.

Curiously, as it became more common to use "switched" Ethernet, the tool 
required more careful configuration of the machines involved to make 
sure the traffic flows were visible to the Flakeway.?? Now, with the 
pervasive use of Wifi, and the broadcast nature of radio, maybe the 
pendulum has swung back.

So, a little piece of history of address idiosyncracies.... and use of 
duplicate addresses.

Enjoy,
Jack Haverty


On 11/29/22 12:50, touch--- via Internet-history wrote:
> Hi, Andy,
>
> Using ARP as duplicate address detection has an unintended and possibly dangerous consequence.
>
> If you ARP your own address, you are also broadcasting the IP/Ethernet association of your endpoint as the requesting party. That can flush caches elsewhere and cause traffic to the previous owner of that endpoint to fail - in some cases (and surprisingly) that includes the endpoint that had that address in the first place.
>
> So I don?t think that qualifies as ?safe? duplicate address detection and I wouldn?t say that this would be an origin of that concept, as a result.
>
> YMMV.
>
> Joe
>
> ?
> Dr. Joe Touch, temporal epistemologist
> www.strayalpha.com
>
>> On Nov 29, 2022, at 12:43 PM, Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> ARP (RFC 826) trivially enables duplicate IPv4 address detection on
>> Ethernet networks (just ARP for your own address and see if anyone else
>> responds), so I guess November 1982 for IP over Ethernet.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 29, 2022 at 3:23 PM John Kristoff via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>>> My earliest memory, because that is the time of my entry into the
>>> field, of duplicate address detection was done on Token Ring networks
>>> during ring insertion (phase 2 - address verification).  More recently
>>> IPv6 has duplicate address detection (dad).
>>>
>>> I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
>>> mechanisms.  I imagine there were some predating what I remember about
>>> Token Ring, but this is the kind of thing that is difficult to uncover
>>> without some hints. Any pointers to the earliest of these functions in
>>> networking?
>>>
>>> Thanks kindly,
>>>
>>> John
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From gnu at toad.com  Tue Nov 29 15:19:46 2022
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:19:46 -0800
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org> 
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
Message-ID: <1541.1669763986@hop.toad.com>

John Kristoff via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
> mechanisms.

Were there any duplicate address detection methods used in the 3-megabit
Experimental Ethernet?  As I recall from the early 1980s on Stanford SUN
workstations, the 8-bit addresses used to identify nodes were configured
by DIP switches on the interface board, so there was a significant
chance of mistakenly configuring a duplicate address.

April 1984's RFC 895 describes how IP datagrams are carried on
Experimental Ethernets.  It provides no duplicate detection, merely
suggesting (in those days of unlimited IP address space), "The easiest
thing to do is to use the last eight bits of host number part of the
Internet address as the host's address on the Experimental Ethernet.
This is the recommended approach."

Perhaps PUP or other early Ethernet protocols did duplicate address detection?

	John
	


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Nov 29 18:35:20 2022
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 15:35:20 +1300
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
Message-ID: <081402aa-c1ce-fbd4-12bf-7ca2d02fc221@gmail.com>

On 30-Nov-22 09:23, John Kristoff via Internet-history wrote:
> My earliest memory, because that is the time of my entry into the
> field, of duplicate address detection was done on Token Ring networks
> during ring insertion (phase 2 - address verification).  More recently
> IPv6 has duplicate address detection (dad).
> 
> I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
> mechanisms.  I imagine there were some predating what I remember about
> Token Ring, but this is the kind of thing that is difficult to uncover
> without some hints. Any pointers to the earliest of these functions in
> networking?

I found myself asking whether the Cambridge Ring had, or needed, DAD, but
then I asked myself: is this a layer 3 issue, or did it arise in layer 2
designs (pre-Ethernet)? It wasn't needed, in theory, by networks that
generated layer 3 addresses mechanically from layer 2 addresses. How did
the orginal Appletalk deal with this?

So I have more questions than answers, I'm afraid.

(The multicasts caused by IPv6 DAD are a severe scaling issue for
large or low-power wireless networks.)

Regards
     Brian


From touch at strayalpha.com  Wed Nov 30 07:37:04 2022
From: touch at strayalpha.com (touch at strayalpha.com)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 07:37:04 -0800
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <b2e0368b-361b-1716-fae2-d9adf8f0f627@3kitty.org>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>
 <b2e0368b-361b-1716-fae2-d9adf8f0f627@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <49DD0AB1-A507-4F9A-8448-A016EE08B80F@strayalpha.com>

> On Nov 29, 2022, at 1:51 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> I'm surprised (and disappointed) if this "feature" still exists.
> 
> Back in the mid 80s, we created a simple software tool we called a "Flakeway".  The purpose was to simulate network problems in order to test out a TCP's ability to deal with IP datagrams that were actually dropped, reordered, duplicated, or otherwise mangled in transit.  Computers directly connected to the ARPANET never encountered such conditions, so we looked for a way to create them in order to see if a TCP implementation really worked.
> ...
> This tool was very useful.  Programming it took only a day or two. But it did seem to reveal a vulnerability in the protocols.  E.g., you could easily pretend to be any other Internet computer and possibly convince some user to enter sensitive information or do other nasty things.
> 
> This was all reported, quietly, to IETF, so it could be fixed. Meanwhile, it was a useful tool.  About ten years later, in the early 90s, I tried using the tool again and discovered that it still worked.   I don't know if that was because the protocols hadn't been improved, or because the computers involved weren't up to date.

It wasn?t fixed until 2008 with RFC5227. So I don?t think ARP qualifies as DAD until that date.

Joe

From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Wed Nov 30 09:21:33 2022
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 12:21:33 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
Message-ID: <20221130172133.E72E818C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: John Kristoff

    > I had thought of ARP, but wasn't it's use for duplicate address
    > detection essentially a "hack" that came later?

Absolutely. Having been a co-designer of ARP, I can assure you that
such a use was not in the minds of Dave Plummer nor I.

    > From: John Gilmore

    > Were there any duplicate address detection methods used in the
    > 3-megabit Experimental Ethernet? 

No. We had our hands full merely getting stuff to work; protecting
bozos from themselves was an un-affordable luxury.

I'm not sure people really grasp how under-resourced the internetting project
was back then. A lot of things we _should_ have done only got done later
(e.g. dynamic host configuration), or not at all. The hordes (how appropriate
a word) of programmers who are busy writing networking code these days were
beyond envisioning.

	Noel


From jeanjour at comcast.net  Wed Nov 30 11:43:07 2022
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 14:43:07 -0500
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <20221130172133.E72E818C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20221130172133.E72E818C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <A5F94347-2CDA-48E0-AD85-5E75BC139124@comcast.net>

I wouldn?t call that a hack.  A hack either fixes a problem in a way not really consistent with the design or adds a feature not consistent with a design.  This seems to be a feature that was inherent to the design even if not in the minds of the designers. That is good! The way it is suppose to work, but seldom does.

> On Nov 30, 2022, at 12:21, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: John Kristoff
> 
>> I had thought of ARP, but wasn't it's use for duplicate address
>> detection essentially a "hack" that came later?
> 
> Absolutely. Having been a co-designer of ARP, I can assure you that
> such a use was not in the minds of Dave Plummer nor I.
> 
>> From: John Gilmore
> 
>> Were there any duplicate address detection methods used in the
>> 3-megabit Experimental Ethernet? 
> 
> No. We had our hands full merely getting stuff to work; protecting
> bozos from themselves was an un-affordable luxury.
> 
> I'm not sure people really grasp how under-resourced the internetting project
> was back then. A lot of things we _should_ have done only got done later
> (e.g. dynamic host configuration), or not at all. The hordes (how appropriate
> a word) of programmers who are busy writing networking code these days were
> beyond envisioning.
> 
> 	Noel
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From j at shoch.com  Wed Nov 30 16:06:28 2022
From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 16:06:28 -0800
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <mailman.295.1669822648.10414.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
References: <mailman.295.1669822648.10414.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
Message-ID: <CAFrK2dhB0Dd5dJkTrMsu7kzH=wC=+NE4EjeTcCK1hAv8vneQ+Q@mail.gmail.com>

The Experimental Ethernet ca. 1973 had 8-bit source and destination
addresses.
Depending on the machine or interface, these could have been set with DIP
switches, in software, or otherwise.
At this level there was no ability to recognize that two machines might
have the same Ethernet address.

The PUP Internet was built on top of this, ca, 1974, with 8 bits of network
number, and 8 bits of host number (conveniently matching the Ethernet).
Each source and destination PUP "port" also included a socket number, which
(for some protocols) might have helped disentangle duplicate host numbers.

This early architecture worked very well -- interconnecting thousands of
machines, dozens of networks, etc.

But this early design also highlighted some of the more complicated issues:
--An erroneously entered Ethernet host address could produce two
machines on the same Ethernet with the same address.
--Even worse, moving a machine from one network to another could yield two
machines with the same network-relative host address.

When we were finally able to publish the PUP work in the1980 IEEE paper we
already knew about the issues, and hinted at what was to be done:

"One could consider revising the entire notion of a hierarchical address
space. Under the current design, it is sometimes necessary to change the
host number of a machine which is moved from one net to another--an
operational annoyance. It is conceivable that every host could be given a
unique address within a flat address space; a more sophisticated mechanism
would then be needed to map addresses into routes, since there would no
longer be a network number as part of the address (except perhaps as a
hint, to improve performance)."
Of course, this was already underway -- 48-bit unique addresses in the
XWire/DIX/802.3 Ethernet and in the Xerox Network System (XNS) internetwork
architecture.
[Dalal published this at SIGCOMM in 1981.]

Hard to believe this was all 40-50 years ago.....

John




> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:19:46 -0800
> From: John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com>
> To: John Kristoff <jtk at dataplane.org>
> Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
> Message-ID: <1541.1669763986 at hop.toad.com>
>
> John Kristoff via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> wrote:
> > I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
> > mechanisms.
>
> Were there any duplicate address detection methods used in the 3-megabit
> Experimental Ethernet?  As I recall from the early 1980s on Stanford SUN
> workstations, the 8-bit addresses used to identify nodes were configured
> by DIP switches on the interface board, so there was a significant
> chance of mistakenly configuring a duplicate address.
>
> April 1984's RFC 895 describes how IP datagrams are carried on
> Experimental Ethernets.  It provides no duplicate detection, merely
> suggesting (in those days of unlimited IP address space), "The easiest
> thing to do is to use the last eight bits of host number part of the
> Internet address as the host's address on the Experimental Ethernet.
> This is the recommended approach."
>
> Perhaps PUP or other early Ethernet protocols did duplicate address
> detection?
>
>         John
>


From vint at google.com  Wed Nov 30 16:23:49 2022
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 19:23:49 -0500
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <CAFrK2dhB0Dd5dJkTrMsu7kzH=wC=+NE4EjeTcCK1hAv8vneQ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.295.1669822648.10414.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
 <CAFrK2dhB0Dd5dJkTrMsu7kzH=wC=+NE4EjeTcCK1hAv8vneQ+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggchtKxtX8-JP=FSxJq=prQPAhqKFY4xjARAffRAJP-+_A@mail.gmail.com>

yeah, I hate numbers like that, John... :-)))

v


On Wed, Nov 30, 2022 at 7:06 PM John Shoch via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> The Experimental Ethernet ca. 1973 had 8-bit source and destination
> addresses.
> Depending on the machine or interface, these could have been set with DIP
> switches, in software, or otherwise.
> At this level there was no ability to recognize that two machines might
> have the same Ethernet address.
>
> The PUP Internet was built on top of this, ca, 1974, with 8 bits of network
> number, and 8 bits of host number (conveniently matching the Ethernet).
> Each source and destination PUP "port" also included a socket number, which
> (for some protocols) might have helped disentangle duplicate host numbers.
>
> This early architecture worked very well -- interconnecting thousands of
> machines, dozens of networks, etc.
>
> But this early design also highlighted some of the more complicated issues:
> --An erroneously entered Ethernet host address could produce two
> machines on the same Ethernet with the same address.
> --Even worse, moving a machine from one network to another could yield two
> machines with the same network-relative host address.
>
> When we were finally able to publish the PUP work in the1980 IEEE paper we
> already knew about the issues, and hinted at what was to be done:
>
> "One could consider revising the entire notion of a hierarchical address
> space. Under the current design, it is sometimes necessary to change the
> host number of a machine which is moved from one net to another--an
> operational annoyance. It is conceivable that every host could be given a
> unique address within a flat address space; a more sophisticated mechanism
> would then be needed to map addresses into routes, since there would no
> longer be a network number as part of the address (except perhaps as a
> hint, to improve performance)."
> Of course, this was already underway -- 48-bit unique addresses in the
> XWire/DIX/802.3 Ethernet and in the Xerox Network System (XNS) internetwork
> architecture.
> [Dalal published this at SIGCOMM in 1981.]
>
> Hard to believe this was all 40-50 years ago.....
>
> John
>
>
>
>
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2022 15:19:46 -0800
> > From: John Gilmore <gnu at toad.com>
> > To: John Kristoff <jtk at dataplane.org>
> > Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > Subject: Re: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
> > Message-ID: <1541.1669763986 at hop.toad.com>
> >
> > John Kristoff via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > wrote:
> > > I'm curious to know about the earliest of duplicate address detection
> > > mechanisms.
> >
> > Were there any duplicate address detection methods used in the 3-megabit
> > Experimental Ethernet?  As I recall from the early 1980s on Stanford SUN
> > workstations, the 8-bit addresses used to identify nodes were configured
> > by DIP switches on the interface board, so there was a significant
> > chance of mistakenly configuring a duplicate address.
> >
> > April 1984's RFC 895 describes how IP datagrams are carried on
> > Experimental Ethernets.  It provides no duplicate detection, merely
> > suggesting (in those days of unlimited IP address space), "The easiest
> > thing to do is to use the last eight bits of host number part of the
> > Internet address as the host's address on the Experimental Ethernet.
> > This is the recommended approach."
> >
> > Perhaps PUP or other early Ethernet protocols did duplicate address
> > detection?
> >
> >         John
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:
Vint Cerf
Google, LLC
1900 Reston Metro Plaza, 16th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
+1 (571) 213 1346


until further notice

From internet-history at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net  Wed Nov 30 18:40:24 2022
From: internet-history at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 19:40:24 -0700
Subject: [ih] History of duplicate address tests
In-Reply-To: <b2e0368b-361b-1716-fae2-d9adf8f0f627@3kitty.org>
References: <20221129142338.3089d2ae@dataplane.org>
 <CAA=duU1t6ua+4j1SmEHq6EeYC2a0UOYCo2MDuhs=Yfmn66pKDw@mail.gmail.com>
 <8FD4D4B8-096E-42F0-A95D-263A3E9E17E8@strayalpha.com>
 <b2e0368b-361b-1716-fae2-d9adf8f0f627@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <ef7ab914-902a-93a3-4959-410cb9440a15@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>

On 11/29/22 2:51 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> I'm surprised (and disappointed) if this "feature" still exists.

Well, I think you should be surprised and disappointed as this feature 
seems to still be very much a thing.

> Back in the mid 80s, we created a simple software tool we called a 
> "Flakeway".? The purpose was to simulate network problems in order to 
> test out a TCP's ability to deal with IP datagrams that were actually 
> dropped, reordered, duplicated, or otherwise mangled in transit.

Interesting.

As I read your message I was wondering how many of those things could be 
implemented with a properly configured Linux kernel / system.  Dropped, 
delayed, and mangled can probably easily be done with firewalling and / 
or QoS features.

Reordering might be somewhat more problematic and require changing the 
path that frames / packets take through the network such that one path 
has a delay.  Thus you send some frames / packets through the delay and 
others more direct thereby inducing an out of order condition.

Duplication is a tough nut to crack.  Or at least I'm not aware how to 
go about doing that with firewalling and / or QoS.  There might be a way 
to punt the frame / packet to user space where a daemon would duplicate 
it and re-inject it into the network.

> Computers directly connected to the ARPANET never encountered such 
> conditions, so we looked for a way to create them in order to see if a 
> TCP implementation really worked.

The more that I learn about the ARPANET and NCP the more impressed I am.

I also see why you needed to test TCP stacks against new problems that 
didn't exist in the ARPANET.

> Such a tool would be most useful if it didn't require changes anywhere 
> in the existing equipment.? Ideally it would work by somehow inserting 
> itself into the normal path for traffic between two computers 
> interacting using TCP, without those computers knowing that it was there.

I see two older methods and one newer method to do this.  The first 
older method is effectively monkeying with the ARP cache like Flakeaway 
did.  Many grey / black hat tools still do this.  The second method is 
to get in path / route between source and destination ostensibly on 
different subnets passing through a router.  The third, newer, method is 
to leverage something like SDN / OpenFlow to receive a frame / packet, 
ship it off to a controller to fold, spindle, or mutilate it before 
sending it back to the egress device.

> By exploiting the behavior of ARP and common host implementations that 
> Joe mentioned, we created "Flakeway" software.

I instantly knew /how/ you did -- what I'll call -- the /interception/ 
bit based on the description.  I say this because I know how this works 
from contemporary network problems / vulnerabilities that -- to the best 
of my knowledge -- still exist at the end of 2022.

Does the name / phrase "Firesheep" mean anything to you?

According to Wikipedia, Firesheep came out in late 2010.  Firesheep was 
targeted at WiFi networks which were inherently broadcast.  But my 
understanding is that it was possible to make it work on traditional 
LANs, even switched LANs, via ARP techniques that you and Joe referred 
to, specifically the LAN's default gateway.

> Typically we would run it on a machine with an Ethernet interface 
> that could deal with lots of traffic, and which could be put in 
> "promiscuous mode" so that the Flakeway would receive all Ethernet 
> traffic regardless of its addresses.   The constraint for using 
> the tool was that at least one of the computers under test had to 
> be connected to the same Ethernet segment, so that all its traffic 
> would be visible at the Flakeway's Ethernet interface.  At the time, 
> Sun workstations ("SPARCs") were typically available and met the 
> requirements.

Needing to be on the same network segment as the source and / or 
destination means that you were completely playing at layer 2.

Newer tools allow attacking systems on different network segments as 
long as you are in the routed path between said systems.  E.g.

[A]---(1)---[B]---(2)---[C]

B can run contemporary counterparts to Flakeway which would target R1 & 
R2's L2 MAC addresses and selectively target A's & C's L3 IP address.  }:-)

> Flakeway would start watching all Ethernet traffic (much like Wireshark 
> today), and then issue an ARP request for the computer being tested.? On 
> receiving the ARP reply, it would immediately send its own ARP reply for 
> that same IP address, but specifying itself as the appropriate Ethernet 
> target address.

*nod*nod*

> As Joe noted, computers typically flush their address caches on 
> seeing new ARP information, and use the most recent response for any 
> subsequent traffic they send to that IP address.

I would think that the computers would /update/ their ARP cache for the 
IP to MAC mapping for the specific victim and not actually /flush/ all 
of the ARP cache.

> After completing this setup, all the interesting traffic now flows to 
> the Flakeway machine, which can simply retransmit it to the real 
> Ethernet address of the computer being tested.

Yep.  That's how things still work today.

> Other than a slight increase in delay, nothing much changes.

Agreed.

Really, the only way for clients on the same LAN to have any idea that 
this is happening is to check the MAC address that each has associated 
with the other's IP address.

Incidentally, this is why it's a good idea to check the ARP cache when 
weird things are happening.  Make sure that each machine has the correct 
MAC address for the other machine.

> By performing the same procedure for a (real) gateway's Ethernet 
> address, the Flakeway could insert itself into the datagram pathway 
> for traffic in both directions.   To do the testing, we then set it up 
> so it could delay, duplicate, reorder, discard, and otherwise mangle 
> the IP traffic flow to see how the TCPs dealt with such problems 
> (as they were designed to do).

That makes perfect sense to me.

> This tool was very useful.

Today, Flakeway would be considered a grey hat hacking tool.  Just one 
of may that fall into the category.

> Programming it took only a day or two. But it did seem to reveal a 
> vulnerability in the protocols.
This vulnerability sill very much so exists today.

The vast majority of people assume ~> believe that the L2 LAN broadcast 
domain is a safe place.  That's is a VERY dangerous assumption.  I'd say 
that greater than 95% of the time it is safe.  But when it's not safe, 
it's really not safe.

> E.g., you could easily pretend to be any other Internet computer 
> and possibly convince some user to enter sensitive information or do 
> other nasty things.

Yep.

> This was all reported, quietly, to IETF, so it could be fixed.

Chuckle.

Based on the following comment, I'm guessing this was reported in the 
early '80s, correct?

> Meanwhile, it was a useful tool.

I'll argue that it still is a useful tool.  At least to some people.

> About ten years later, in the early 90s, I tried using the tool again 
> and discovered that it still worked.

I'd bet a lunch that it still would work in many situations in late 2022.

> I don't know if that was because the protocols hadn't been improved, 
> or because the computers involved weren't up to date.

I suspect it's more the former, the protocols hadn't been improved.

Stop and think for a moment, what has changed in networking protocols 
since the time you were messing with them?  Not much.  Most of the 
changes happened at higher layers that still depend on the protocols 
that operate at the lower layers that you're talking about.

> Curiously, as it became more common to use "switched" Ethernet, the tool 
> required more careful configuration of the machines involved to make 
> sure the traffic flows were visible to the Flakeway.

Ya.  With switches, you either MUST use ARP techniques /or/ you need to 
continually flood the switch and bust it down to a hub.

Promiscuous mode doesn't mean nearly as much as it used to.  It used to 
mean everything on / passing through the LAN segment.  Now it only means 
everything on the host.  Different implementations will see different 
types of traffic, direct or direct + broadcast.

> Now, with the pervasive use of Wifi, and the broadcast nature of radio, 
> maybe the pendulum has swung back.

The pendulum never really swung completely away.  But yes, older WiFi 
very much so did swing it back.

I say older WiFi, as in not fairly new WiFi.  This is because fairly new 
(maybe just before contemporary) WiFi was going to start using different 
encryption between each client and the AP.  Thus clients couldn't 
decrypt RF broadcasted traffic that was unicast IP traffic to another 
machine on the LAN.

According to Wikipedia, IPsec pre-dates SSL.  IPsec being early '90s and 
SSL being mid to late '90s.  Then in the late 2000s MACsec started to 
become a thing.

Both IPsec and SSL move the authentication / integrity / confidentiality 
higher up the stack than the layer 2 ARP attacks being discussed. 
MACsec is the first thing that I'm aware of that actually addresses the 
crux of the layer 2 ARP attack.

> So, a little piece of history of address idiosyncracies.... and use of 
> duplicate addresses.

It is history.  But I think the underlying layer 2 ARP problem is still 
very much with us today in late 2022.

I was recently listening to the episode 27 of APNIC's PING podcast -- 
Wither RPKI -- wherein one of the hosts mentioned that people have 
tended to prefer to address the authentication / integrity / 
confidentiality at the top layer of the OSI stack as this tends to work 
across more things in an end to end manner.  MACsec is L2 and inherently 
local to the broadcast domain.  IPsec is L3 but is limited to IP 
addresses.  Whereas TLS is L7 and can actually ride across multiple 
underlying transports, not all of which involve IP.  What's more is that 
it's relatively easy to co-mingle multiple TLS (L7) endpoints on a 
single IP address via things like (e)SNI.

Some later parts of the podcast even went so far as to say that IP 
addresses aren't important any more.  Their justification is that with 
things like (e)SNI and CDNs, IP addresses aren't as important as they 
once were.  --  I've got to say, the comments make some sense.  Not that 
I like what they are saying.



-- 
Grant. . . .
unix || die


From stewart at serissa.com  Wed Nov 30 18:55:31 2022
From: stewart at serissa.com (Lawrence Stewart)
Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2022 21:55:31 -0500
Subject: [ih] duplicate address detection
In-Reply-To: <mailman.331.1669862504.10414.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
References: <mailman.331.1669862504.10414.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
Message-ID: <E38BAF0C-D1C3-4068-AAA0-C4B5E158AF58@serissa.com>

Not exactly a duplicate address detection issue, but the 48 bit MACs did have their teething problems too.

Dave Gifford, then a summer intern at the PARC Computer Science Lab got an early D0 machine, which just acted flakey.  Sometimes networking would work but not very often.

Some detective work revealed he had been issued MAC 00:00:00:00:00:00

-Larry

The D0?s turned out to be too expensive for workstations, but they had a great deal of memory bandwidth for the day, and found a niche as printer controllers.