From beebe at math.utah.edu  Tue May  3 06:04:11 2022
From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 07:04:11 -0600
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
Message-ID: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>

I was sorry to see an announcement yesterday from Boris Veytsman, the
President of the TeX Users Group:

>> ...
>> In other unhappy news, I am very sad to report the passing of a great
>> friend and TeX enthusiast, Dave Walden.  Dave was a living history of
>> computers and computer typesetting, who knew everything and everybody.
>> He was one of the most generous people I ever knew, always here to
>> help and support.  He was a TUG director and treasurer for many years.
>> I learned a lot from Dave and his advice.  He will be missed.  (A longer
>> memoriam will appear in the next TUGboat.)
>> ...

Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
to 716.

The University of Utah is Node 4 of the original Arpanet, and Dave
told me that it was he who installed the first BBN (Bolt Beranek and
Newman, Inc.) IMP here at Utah.  That happened several years before I
arrived in Salt Lake City, so I didn't meet him until the post-2000
years at TeX User Group conferences.

In later years, after his retirement from BBN, Dave became an editor
of the journal IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. He also wrote
16 articles in that journal, including two on the history of BBN, one
on that of Interleaf, Inc., and co-authored two on that of the TeX
typesetting system.  BibTeX entries for all of them can be found in

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/ieeeannhistcomput.bib

[change .bib to .html for a view with active hyperlinks].

Dave wrote 47 articles in TUGboat, the journal of the TeX Users Group,

	http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/tugboat.bib

including numerous interviews with TUG members.

Dave's Web sites at

	https://walden-family.com/
	https://walden-family.com/dave/

document some of his other activities.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
- University of Utah                                                          -
- Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
- 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
- Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Tue May  3 15:29:34 2022
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:29:34 -0500
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <59BABD1D-0FBF-426F-ADA4-DB9B43BE4064@gmail.com>


Sad news. 
Most sincere condolences to family and friends.

-Jorge

> On May 3, 2022, at 8:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> ?I was sorry to see an announcement yesterday from Boris Veytsman, the
> President of the TeX Users Group:
> 
>>> ...
>>> In other unhappy news, I am very sad to report the passing of a great
>>> friend and TeX enthusiast, Dave Walden.  Dave was a living history of
>>> computers and computer typesetting, who knew everything and everybody.
>>> He was one of the most generous people I ever knew, always here to
>>> help and support.  He was a TUG director and treasurer for many years.
>>> I learned a lot from Dave and his advice.  He will be missed.  (A longer
>>> memoriam will appear in the next TUGboat.)
>>> ...
> 
> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
> to 716.
> 
> The University of Utah is Node 4 of the original Arpanet, and Dave
> told me that it was he who installed the first BBN (Bolt Beranek and
> Newman, Inc.) IMP here at Utah.  That happened several years before I
> arrived in Salt Lake City, so I didn't meet him until the post-2000
> years at TeX User Group conferences.
> 
> In later years, after his retirement from BBN, Dave became an editor
> of the journal IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. He also wrote
> 16 articles in that journal, including two on the history of BBN, one
> on that of Interleaf, Inc., and co-authored two on that of the TeX
> typesetting system.  BibTeX entries for all of them can be found in
> 
>    http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/ieeeannhistcomput.bib
> 
> [change .bib to .html for a view with active hyperlinks].
> 
> Dave wrote 47 articles in TUGboat, the journal of the TeX Users Group,
> 
>    http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/tugboat.bib
> 
> including numerous interviews with TUG members.
> 
> Dave's Web sites at
> 
>    https://walden-family.com/
>    https://walden-family.com/dave/
> 
> document some of his other activities.
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> - Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
> - University of Utah                                                          -
> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Tue May  3 15:42:41 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 15:42:41 -0700
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
Message-ID: <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>

On 5/3/2022 6:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history wrote:
> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
> to 716.

I did not have much interaction with Dave, back in the early days.  He 
was, for me, merely one of the deservedly-vaunted BBN team.

In more recent years, he was immediately friendly and supportive during 
the odd email-origins pseudo-controversy developed and he actively 
provided bits of help as he could.

Our community has had quite an array of personalities that can be 
challenging.

Dave wasn't one of them. I am extremely to sorry he is gone.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From darius.kazemi at gmail.com  Tue May  3 16:21:19 2022
From: darius.kazemi at gmail.com (Darius Kazemi)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:21:19 -0700
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
 <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CADHc3QHcJBLAk85sGmGz8kiYTXtXavHS-kPJvJ88Jg7rv9R5jg@mail.gmail.com>

Oh this is so, so sad. Dave helped me immensely in my 50th anniversary RFC
blogging project. He was generous in providing critical context I needed,
and a truly personable and funny correspondent.

His website is a treasure trove and a document of his many passions:
https://www.walden-family.com/dave/

In particular he co-edited this massive (and massively interesting!) tome
on the history of BBN from its earliest days: https://walden-family.com/bbn/

I hardly knew him but he left a great impression on me. My condolences to
all his loved ones.

-Darius

On Tue, May 3, 2022, 3:42 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> On 5/3/2022 6:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history wrote:
> > Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
> > author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
> > to 716.
>
> I did not have much interaction with Dave, back in the early days.  He
> was, for me, merely one of the deservedly-vaunted BBN team.
>
> In more recent years, he was immediately friendly and supportive during
> the odd email-origins pseudo-controversy developed and he actively
> provided bits of help as he could.
>
> Our community has had quite an array of personalities that can be
> challenging.
>
> Dave wasn't one of them. I am extremely to sorry he is gone.
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From jack at 3kitty.org  Tue May  3 16:26:20 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:26:20 -0700
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
 <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <5b6fa519-8ca2-b41c-13f6-c27bf709c1a5@3kitty.org>

Dave's obituary is at:

https://www.olsonparent.com/obituary/David-Walden

In addition to everything else, Dave was one of the original ARPANET 
implementation team.? He actually "wrote the code" to create the net.? 
More recently, he was very helpful in the efforts to research the IMP as 
prior art for a patent fight, and in the successful revival of the old 
IMP code starting from an old printout, and getting the IMP to actually 
run again on simulated hardware.

Jack Haverty

On 5/3/22 15:42, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
> On 5/3/2022 6:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history wrote:
>> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
>> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
>> to 716.
>
> I did not have much interaction with Dave, back in the early days.? He 
> was, for me, merely one of the deservedly-vaunted BBN team.
>
> In more recent years, he was immediately friendly and supportive 
> during the odd email-origins pseudo-controversy developed and he 
> actively provided bits of help as he could.
>
> Our community has had quite an array of personalities that can be 
> challenging.
>
> Dave wasn't one of them. I am extremely to sorry he is gone.
>
> d/
>



From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Tue May  3 16:58:02 2022
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 19:58:02 -0400
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <5b6fa519-8ca2-b41c-13f6-c27bf709c1a5@3kitty.org>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>,
 <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>,
 <5b6fa519-8ca2-b41c-13f6-c27bf709c1a5@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <6271C18A.23526.17527ACF@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>

On 3 May 2022 at 16:26, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:

Date:        	Tue, 3 May 2022 16:26:20 -0700
To:          	internet-history at elists.isoc.org
Subject:     	Re: [ih] David C. Walden
From:        	Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
Reply to:    	Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
Sender:      	"Internet-history" <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org>

> Dave's obituary is at:
> 
> https://www.olsonparent.com/obituary/David-Walden
> 
> In addition to everything else, Dave was one of the original ARPANET 
> implementation team.? He actually "wrote the code" to create the net.?

I joined the IMP project of Jan 1969 -- Dave and Will had started on the IMP 
proposal in the fall of '68.  I was tied up on another project and joined when the 
contract was actually awarded -- in Jan.  Dave and Will had been working on 
chunks of the IMP code with paper tape -- I have no idea how they were editing 
the tapes nor how it worked.  I do know that they almost *never* reassembled 
any of the code {because it was real hard :o)} and so Will had a big notebook with 
the official "patch log".   I was responsible for the timesharing system on our 
PDP-1 [part of the Hospital Computer Project, and it stayed at BBN when the 
project ended] and I was anal about having correct listings.   There was a 
potential serious clash of cultures when i joined.  I discovered, to my pleasant 
surprise, that Dave didn't like all the paper tape stuff much either.  And so we 
hatched a plan.  We *knew* that Frank [Heart] and Will would _never_ have 
OK'ed our messing with how the IMP was coded and assembled.

So.. dave and I just _did_it_ [you know the old saw about forgiveness vs 
permission :o)].  We started on one Friday late afternoon and began "porting" -- I 
had cobbled up a cross-assembler on the PDP-1 that could punch out an 
H516-loadable paper tape, and we copied all the paper tapes over to the PDP-1 
and edited the cumulative patches into the PDP-1 source files.  Then we tried to 
make it all work [I vaguely remember that it took a few iterations for the two of 
us to get it actually loadable and working].... BUT... Dave and I worked well 
together and we pulled it all off -- when the folks came in on Monday morning 
there was a fresh, new system with a full correct listing waiting.   I never learned 
what Will thought about that -- I think he just took it as a fait accompli.  I know 
that Frank never said a word to us about it.   Dave and I stayed close friends 
throughout my tenure at BBN.   He was my longest time colleague and best 
friend at BBN.

  /Bernie\


                 Bernie Cosell
         bernie at fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --



From pnr at planet.nl  Wed May  4 07:42:58 2022
From: pnr at planet.nl (Paul Ruizendaal)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 16:42:58 +0200
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <mailman.243.1651622297.7657.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
References: <mailman.243.1651622297.7657.internet-history@elists.isoc.org>
Message-ID: <0676C7C2-EB8E-4CBA-9E21-9B11FD6AA75A@planet.nl>

I?ve never met Dave, but he was super helpful just a few years ago when I was researching old TCP/IP implementations and the C/70 machines. Indeed a great guy.

Paul

> On 4 May 2022, at 01:58, internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org wrote:
> 
> Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to
> 	internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> 	https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> 	internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> 	internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. Re: David C. Walden (Jorge Amodio)
>   2. Re: David C. Walden (Dave Crocker)
>   3. Re: David C. Walden (Darius Kazemi)
>   4. Re: David C. Walden (Jack Haverty)
>   5. Re: David C. Walden (Bernie Cosell)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 17:29:34 -0500
> From: Jorge Amodio <jmamodio at gmail.com>
> To: "Nelson H. F. Beebe" <beebe at math.utah.edu>
> Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] David C. Walden
> Message-ID: <59BABD1D-0FBF-426F-ADA4-DB9B43BE4064 at gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
> Sad news. 
> Most sincere condolences to family and friends.
> 
> -Jorge
> 
>> On May 3, 2022, at 8:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>> ?I was sorry to see an announcement yesterday from Boris Veytsman, the
>> President of the TeX Users Group:
>> 
>>>> ...
>>>> In other unhappy news, I am very sad to report the passing of a great
>>>> friend and TeX enthusiast, Dave Walden.  Dave was a living history of
>>>> computers and computer typesetting, who knew everything and everybody.
>>>> He was one of the most generous people I ever knew, always here to
>>>> help and support.  He was a TUG director and treasurer for many years.
>>>> I learned a lot from Dave and his advice.  He will be missed.  (A longer
>>>> memoriam will appear in the next TUGboat.)
>>>> ...
>> 
>> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
>> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
>> to 716.
>> 
>> The University of Utah is Node 4 of the original Arpanet, and Dave
>> told me that it was he who installed the first BBN (Bolt Beranek and
>> Newman, Inc.) IMP here at Utah.  That happened several years before I
>> arrived in Salt Lake City, so I didn't meet him until the post-2000
>> years at TeX User Group conferences.
>> 
>> In later years, after his retirement from BBN, Dave became an editor
>> of the journal IEEE Annals of the History of Computing. He also wrote
>> 16 articles in that journal, including two on the history of BBN, one
>> on that of Interleaf, Inc., and co-authored two on that of the TeX
>> typesetting system.  BibTeX entries for all of them can be found in
>> 
>>   http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/ieeeannhistcomput.bib
>> 
>> [change .bib to .html for a view with active hyperlinks].
>> 
>> Dave wrote 47 articles in TUGboat, the journal of the TeX Users Group,
>> 
>>   http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/tugboat.bib
>> 
>> including numerous interviews with TUG members.
>> 
>> Dave's Web sites at
>> 
>>   https://walden-family.com/
>>   https://walden-family.com/dave/
>> 
>> document some of his other activities.
>> 
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> - Nelson H. F. Beebe                    Tel: +1 801 581 5254                  -
>> - University of Utah                                                          -
>> - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB    Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu  -
>> - 155 S 1400 E RM 233                       beebe at acm.org  beebe at computer.org -
>> - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA    URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ -
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 15:42:41 -0700
> From: Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] David C. Walden
> Message-ID: <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b at dcrocker.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> On 5/3/2022 6:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history wrote:
>> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
>> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
>> to 716.
> 
> I did not have much interaction with Dave, back in the early days.  He 
> was, for me, merely one of the deservedly-vaunted BBN team.
> 
> In more recent years, he was immediately friendly and supportive during 
> the odd email-origins pseudo-controversy developed and he actively 
> provided bits of help as he could.
> 
> Our community has had quite an array of personalities that can be 
> challenging.
> 
> Dave wasn't one of them. I am extremely to sorry he is gone.
> 
> d/
> 
> -- 
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:21:19 -0700
> From: Darius Kazemi <darius.kazemi at gmail.com>
> To: dcrocker at bbiw.net
> Cc: internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>, Dave Crocker
> 	<dhc at dcrocker.net>
> Subject: Re: [ih] David C. Walden
> Message-ID:
> 	<CADHc3QHcJBLAk85sGmGz8kiYTXtXavHS-kPJvJ88Jg7rv9R5jg at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
> 
> Oh this is so, so sad. Dave helped me immensely in my 50th anniversary RFC
> blogging project. He was generous in providing critical context I needed,
> and a truly personable and funny correspondent.
> 
> His website is a treasure trove and a document of his many passions:
> https://www.walden-family.com/dave/
> 
> In particular he co-edited this massive (and massively interesting!) tome
> on the history of BBN from its earliest days: https://walden-family.com/bbn/
> 
> I hardly knew him but he left a great impression on me. My condolences to
> all his loved ones.
> 
> -Darius
> 
> On Tue, May 3, 2022, 3:42 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> On 5/3/2022 6:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
>>> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
>>> to 716.
>> 
>> I did not have much interaction with Dave, back in the early days.  He
>> was, for me, merely one of the deservedly-vaunted BBN team.
>> 
>> In more recent years, he was immediately friendly and supportive during
>> the odd email-origins pseudo-controversy developed and he actively
>> provided bits of help as he could.
>> 
>> Our community has had quite an array of personalities that can be
>> challenging.
>> 
>> Dave wasn't one of them. I am extremely to sorry he is gone.
>> 
>> d/
>> 
>> --
>> Dave Crocker
>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> bbiw.net
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 3 May 2022 16:26:20 -0700
> From: Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] David C. Walden
> Message-ID: <5b6fa519-8ca2-b41c-13f6-c27bf709c1a5 at 3kitty.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
> 
> Dave's obituary is at:
> 
> https://www.olsonparent.com/obituary/David-Walden
> 
> In addition to everything else, Dave was one of the original ARPANET 
> implementation team.? He actually "wrote the code" to create the net.? 
> More recently, he was very helpful in the efforts to research the IMP as 
> prior art for a patent fight, and in the successful revival of the old 
> IMP code starting from an old printout, and getting the IMP to actually 
> run again on simulated hardware.
> 
> Jack Haverty
> 
> On 5/3/22 15:42, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote:
>> On 5/3/2022 6:04 AM, Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Dave was an Internet pioneer who between 1970 and 1976 appears in the
>>> author list of at least 27 Internet RFC documents, spanning numbers 61
>>> to 716.
>> 
>> I did not have much interaction with Dave, back in the early days.? He 
>> was, for me, merely one of the deservedly-vaunted BBN team.
>> 
>> In more recent years, he was immediately friendly and supportive 
>> during the odd email-origins pseudo-controversy developed and he 
>> actively provided bits of help as he could.
>> 
>> Our community has had quite an array of personalities that can be 
>> challenging.
>> 
>> Dave wasn't one of them. I am extremely to sorry he is gone.
>> 
>> d/
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 03 May 2022 19:58:02 -0400
> From: "Bernie Cosell" <bernie at fantasyfarm.com>
> To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject: Re: [ih] David C. Walden
> Message-ID: <6271C18A.23526.17527ACF at bernie.fantasyfarm.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> 
> On 3 May 2022 at 16:26, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> 
> Date:        	Tue, 3 May 2022 16:26:20 -0700
> To:          	internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> Subject:     	Re: [ih] David C. Walden
> From:        	Jack Haverty via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> Reply to:    	Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org>
> Sender:      	"Internet-history" <internet-history-bounces at elists.isoc.org>
> 
>> Dave's obituary is at:
>> 
>> https://www.olsonparent.com/obituary/David-Walden
>> 
>> In addition to everything else, Dave was one of the original ARPANET 
>> implementation team.? He actually "wrote the code" to create the net.?
> 
> I joined the IMP project of Jan 1969 -- Dave and Will had started on the IMP 
> proposal in the fall of '68.  I was tied up on another project and joined when the 
> contract was actually awarded -- in Jan.  Dave and Will had been working on 
> chunks of the IMP code with paper tape -- I have no idea how they were editing 
> the tapes nor how it worked.  I do know that they almost *never* reassembled 
> any of the code {because it was real hard :o)} and so Will had a big notebook with 
> the official "patch log".   I was responsible for the timesharing system on our 
> PDP-1 [part of the Hospital Computer Project, and it stayed at BBN when the 
> project ended] and I was anal about having correct listings.   There was a 
> potential serious clash of cultures when i joined.  I discovered, to my pleasant 
> surprise, that Dave didn't like all the paper tape stuff much either.  And so we 
> hatched a plan.  We *knew* that Frank [Heart] and Will would _never_ have 
> OK'ed our messing with how the IMP was coded and assembled.
> 
> So.. dave and I just _did_it_ [you know the old saw about forgiveness vs 
> permission :o)].  We started on one Friday late afternoon and began "porting" -- I 
> had cobbled up a cross-assembler on the PDP-1 that could punch out an 
> H516-loadable paper tape, and we copied all the paper tapes over to the PDP-1 
> and edited the cumulative patches into the PDP-1 source files.  Then we tried to 
> make it all work [I vaguely remember that it took a few iterations for the two of 
> us to get it actually loadable and working].... BUT... Dave and I worked well 
> together and we pulled it all off -- when the folks came in on Monday morning 
> there was a fresh, new system with a full correct listing waiting.   I never learned 
> what Will thought about that -- I think he just took it as a fait accompli.  I know 
> that Frank never said a word to us about it.   Dave and I stayed close friends 
> throughout my tenure at BBN.   He was my longest time colleague and best 
> friend at BBN.
> 
>  /Bernie\
> 
> 
>                 Bernie Cosell
>         bernie at fantasyfarm.com
> -- Too many people; too few sheep --
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Subject: Digest Footer
> 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 32, Issue 2
> ***********************************************



From dhc at dcrocker.net  Wed May  4 07:51:49 2022
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Wed, 4 May 2022 07:51:49 -0700
Subject: [ih] David C. Walden
In-Reply-To: <5b6fa519-8ca2-b41c-13f6-c27bf709c1a5@3kitty.org>
References: <CMM.0.96.0.1651583051.beebe@gamma.math.utah.edu>
 <82184f22-8791-62dd-3dd8-6c3b2e2bd77b@dcrocker.net>
 <5b6fa519-8ca2-b41c-13f6-c27bf709c1a5@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <662ddc7c-b843-8ad9-22fd-71f265b781ab@dcrocker.net>

On 5/3/2022 4:26 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> Dave's obituary is at:
> 
> https://www.olsonparent.com/obituary/David-Walden


in the New York Times:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/03/technology/david-walden-dead.html?action=click&module=Well&pgtype=Homepage&section=Obituaries



d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com  Thu May 12 11:45:51 2022
From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 18:45:51 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>

In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for interprocess communication that did not include the concept of "connections" or "circuits".? (I believe it was also published in the Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
Thanks,Alex McKenzie


From darius.kazemi at gmail.com  Thu May 12 11:57:07 2022
From: darius.kazemi at gmail.com (Darius Kazemi)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 11:57:07 -0700
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADHc3QFvFsap4a0WpThCkPYt5kYzt-vg_8=Y9jKMRVnNF3nkKw@mail.gmail.com>

I really love this RFC (which is a revision of RFC 61). It is also,
importantly to me, the first time in the RFC series that "monitor" and
"process" are defined in their operating system contexts.

I highlight some of the differences between the RFC 61 and 62 revisions
here: https://write.as/365-rfcs/rfc-62

And my meager attempt at explaining the original draft for a general
audience is here: https://write.as/365-rfcs/rfc-61

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 11:46 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for
> interprocess communication that did not include the concept of
> "connections" or "circuits".  (I believe it was also published in the
> Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess
> communication within a single computer.  I believe that at the time his
> proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider
> seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.  That is my
> question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the
> Internet or elsewhere?
> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From jack at 3kitty.org  Thu May 12 11:58:11 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 11:58:11 -0700
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <f7f8ea7d-1c10-faef-e03f-f0eba5780c69@3kitty.org>

MQTT has been around for a while.? I think it was originated at IBM.? 
It's now widely used for communications between processes in various 
"Internet Of Things" scenarios.?? E.g., my model railroad uses it, and 
my home automation system as well.?? It is message-based rather than 
using a connection or circuit, can use formats such as JSON to organize 
the data, and runs over the Internet.

See https://mqtt.org/

Jack

On 5/12/22 11:45, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:
> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for interprocess communication that did not include the concept of "connections" or "circuits".? (I believe it was also published in the Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
> Thanks,Alex McKenzie



From steve at shinkuro.com  Thu May 12 11:58:25 2022
From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:58:25 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABf5zvLVz=K2kchGNOKfO_+y62sTE5UubvWKxjW-xPQAs+6FcA@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.walden-family.com/public/walden-cacm-1972-ipc.pdf is the CACM
version.  I believe it's the same as RFC 62, which was published in August
1970.

This was apparently discussed in

Computer Networks (1976)
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/computer-networks-1976>
Volume 1, Issue 5
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/computer-networks-1976/vol/1/issue/5>,
August
1977, Pages 243-289
[image: Computer Networks (1976)]
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/journal/computer-networks-1976/vol/1/issue/5>
The ARPA network design decisions?
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0376507577900149#aep-article-footnote-id1>
Author links open overlay panelJohn MMcQuillan
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0376507577900149#!>David
CWalden
<https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0376507577900149#!>
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-5075(77)90014-9Get rights and content
<https://s100.copyright.com/AppDispatchServlet?publisherName=ELS&contentID=0376507577900149&orderBeanReset=true>
Abstract

A number of key decisions made in the design of the ARPA network over a
five-year period serve as the context for an analysis of the fundamental
properties and requirements of packet-switching networks and formulation of
the fundamental criteria for evaluating network performance. The decisions
described fall into the three major areas of network equipment design,
store-and-forward subnetwork system design, and source-to-destination
system design, and each decision is examined in detail.

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 2:46 PM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for
> interprocess communication that did not include the concept of
> "connections" or "circuits".  (I believe it was also published in the
> Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess
> communication within a single computer.  I believe that at the time his
> proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider
> seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.  That is my
> question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the
> Internet or elsewhere?
> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Thu May 12 11:59:56 2022
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 14:59:56 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <03257267-4b47-7ddb-c3d5-8d0ff875af7d@meetinghouse.net>

Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:
> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for interprocess communication that did not include the concept of "connections" or "circuits".? (I believe it was also published in the Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
I believe that there are lots of things like that, these days.

9p (from Plan 9) comes to mind.? But pretty much any publish-subscribe 
message-passing protocol.? AQMP, 0MP.

Miles

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From cerise-isoc at hockeyphil.net  Thu May 12 12:07:34 2022
From: cerise-isoc at hockeyphil.net (Phil White)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:07:34 -0700
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <03257267-4b47-7ddb-c3d5-8d0ff875af7d@meetinghouse.net>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <03257267-4b47-7ddb-c3d5-8d0ff875af7d@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <20220512190734.GA772906@boogeyman.armory.com>

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 02:59:56PM -0400, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote:
> I believe that there are lots of things like that, these days.
> 
> 9p (from Plan 9) comes to mind.? But pretty much any publish-subscribe 
> message-passing protocol.? AQMP, 0MP.

AWS has even made it a cloud service with their Simple Queueing Service.

Given their share of the internet services running, I might be tempted
to say that good ideas might not win out at the time, but they win out
over time.

-Phil


From steve at shinkuro.com  Thu May 12 12:10:45 2022
From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 15:10:45 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <20220512190734.GA772906@boogeyman.armory.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <03257267-4b47-7ddb-c3d5-8d0ff875af7d@meetinghouse.net>
 <20220512190734.GA772906@boogeyman.armory.com>
Message-ID: <CABf5zv+R4HFz68Dx5E8WWNwy_tV+4F4F2DKM6azpBpfSf0gVXQ@mail.gmail.com>

Miles, Phil, et al,

How heavily are AQMP, 0MP, AWS' Simple Queueing Service, et al actually
used?

Thanks,

Steve


On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 3:07 PM Phil White via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 02:59:56PM -0400, Miles Fidelman via
> Internet-history wrote:
> > I believe that there are lots of things like that, these days.
> >
> > 9p (from Plan 9) comes to mind.  But pretty much any publish-subscribe
> > message-passing protocol.  AQMP, 0MP.
>
> AWS has even made it a cloud service with their Simple Queueing Service.
>
> Given their share of the internet services running, I might be tempted
> to say that good ideas might not win out at the time, but they win out
> over time.
>
> -Phil
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From cerise-isoc at hockeyphil.net  Thu May 12 12:34:07 2022
From: cerise-isoc at hockeyphil.net (Phil White)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 12:34:07 -0700
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <CABf5zv+R4HFz68Dx5E8WWNwy_tV+4F4F2DKM6azpBpfSf0gVXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <03257267-4b47-7ddb-c3d5-8d0ff875af7d@meetinghouse.net>
 <20220512190734.GA772906@boogeyman.armory.com>
 <CABf5zv+R4HFz68Dx5E8WWNwy_tV+4F4F2DKM6azpBpfSf0gVXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220512193407.GB772906@boogeyman.armory.com>

SQS is a foundational service within AWS for a number of their offerings.
It's used in a lot of autoscaling and status-related contexts.  If it went
down, then I'd expect a blast radius at AWS that's similar to their
S3-related outages where a lot of sites suddenly disappear.

Externally, it's used for a lot of lambda-based (i.e. serverless)
applications because it makes it easy to scale up & test.

-Phil

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 03:10:45PM -0400, Steve Crocker wrote:
> Miles, Phil, et al,
> 
> How heavily are AQMP, 0MP, AWS' Simple Queueing Service, et al actually
> used?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 3:07 PM Phil White via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 02:59:56PM -0400, Miles Fidelman via
> > Internet-history wrote:
> > > I believe that there are lots of things like that, these days.
> > >
> > > 9p (from Plan 9) comes to mind.  But pretty much any publish-subscribe
> > > message-passing protocol.  AQMP, 0MP.
> >
> > AWS has even made it a cloud service with their Simple Queueing Service.
> >
> > Given their share of the internet services running, I might be tempted
> > to say that good ideas might not win out at the time, but they win out
> > over time.
> >
> > -Phil
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >


From johnl at iecc.com  Thu May 12 12:34:06 2022
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 12 May 2022 15:34:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <CABf5zv+R4HFz68Dx5E8WWNwy_tV+4F4F2DKM6azpBpfSf0gVXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20220512193407.835964001FF9@ary.qy>

It appears that Steve Crocker via Internet-history <steve at shinkuro.com> said:
>Miles, Phil, et al,
>
>How heavily are AQMP, 0MP, AWS' Simple Queueing Service, et al actually
>used?

Dunno about the first two but within AWS people use SQS all the time.
It's by far the easiest way to plumb multiple servers and services
together. It's also built into some of their other products, e.g., you
can attach an SQS queue to their Lambda service and it'll spin up
servers as needed to run the scripts to process queue entries.

The first million requests per month are free, then 40c/million up to 100 billion,
then 30c/million up to 200 billion, then 24c/million above that.  The normal
version of SQS is more or less FIFO, but a slightly more expensive version
is strict FIFO.



From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Thu May 12 12:40:02 2022
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 15:40:02 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <CABf5zv+R4HFz68Dx5E8WWNwy_tV+4F4F2DKM6azpBpfSf0gVXQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <03257267-4b47-7ddb-c3d5-8d0ff875af7d@meetinghouse.net>
 <20220512190734.GA772906@boogeyman.armory.com>
 <CABf5zv+R4HFz68Dx5E8WWNwy_tV+4F4F2DKM6azpBpfSf0gVXQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6af39b47-cc5f-07e1-b0d8-0da7d50e13a5@meetinghouse.net>

Steve Crocker wrote:
AMQP originated at JP Morgan Chase, and seems to be all over the 
financial industry.? Lots of vendors out there selling product, as well.

Miles

> Miles, Phil, et al,
>
> How heavily are AQMP, 0MP, AWS' Simple Queueing Service, et al 
> actually used?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 3:07 PM Phil White via Internet-history 
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org 
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>
>     On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 02:59:56PM -0400, Miles Fidelman via
>     Internet-history wrote:
>     > I believe that there are lots of things like that, these days.
>     >
>     > 9p (from Plan 9) comes to mind.? But pretty much any
>     publish-subscribe
>     > message-passing protocol.? AQMP, 0MP.
>
>     AWS has even made it a cloud service with their Simple Queueing
>     Service.
>
>     Given their share of the internet services running, I might be tempted
>     to say that good ideas might not win out at the time, but they win out
>     over time.
>
>     -Phil
>     -- 
>     Internet-history mailing list
>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Thu May 12 14:07:21 2022
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 09:07:21 +1200
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <f7f8ea7d-1c10-faef-e03f-f0eba5780c69@3kitty.org>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <f7f8ea7d-1c10-faef-e03f-f0eba5780c69@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <47bc31df-9ba8-a8f8-5665-774c8dacff2f@gmail.com>

On 13-May-22 06:58, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> MQTT has been around for a while.? I think it was originated at IBM.

MQ Series originated at IBM Hursley in the UK in 1993. If this list allowed
attachments, I'd send a photo of my $1,000,000,000 mug - every employee
at Hursley received one when MQ Series total revenue hit $1B in about
1998. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_MQ

I am no expert, but the article traces the concept back to "BTAM and QTAM
(Basic and Queued Telecommunications Access Methods)" on OS/360 in 1964.
RFC 62 itself cites references to formative work on multiprocessing operating
systems. The issues arose in multiprocessors before they arose in networks.

The formal equivalence between message-oriented systems and procedure-oriented
systems wasn't noted until 1978 by Lauer and Needham [1], but it was there all
along. There was a lot of Zeitgeist in those days. There still is.

    Brian

[1] Lauer, H.C., Needham, R.M., "On the Duality of Operating Systems Structures,"
in Proc. Second International Symposium on Operating Systems, IRIA, Oct. 1978,
reprinted in Operating Systems Review, 13,2 April 1979, pp. 3-19.

> It's now widely used for communications between processes in various
> "Internet Of Things" scenarios.?? E.g., my model railroad uses it, and
> my home automation system as well.?? It is message-based rather than
> using a connection or circuit, can use formats such as JSON to organize
> the data, and runs over the Internet.
> 
> See https://mqtt.org/
> 
> Jack
> 
> On 5/12/22 11:45, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:
>> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for interprocess communication that did not include the concept of "connections" or "circuits".? (I believe it was also published in the Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
>> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
> 



From jack at 3kitty.org  Thu May 12 16:10:20 2022
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 16:10:20 -0700
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <47bc31df-9ba8-a8f8-5665-774c8dacff2f@gmail.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <f7f8ea7d-1c10-faef-e03f-f0eba5780c69@3kitty.org>
 <47bc31df-9ba8-a8f8-5665-774c8dacff2f@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ffe38695-dea5-3d38-5452-031adbec28fc@3kitty.org>

I have a vague memory that the IBM 360 architecture circa later 60s 
involved the mainframe CPU and processors in peripheral equipment like 
disk controllers, communicating over some kind of bus.? So even a single 
mainframe was a multiprocessor.

Also my recollection is that some form of message-oriented interaction 
protocol was used to manage disk I/O, since I/O operations often didn't 
complete in the same order as they were initiated.?? But I never did any 
OS programming on the 360 so I don't remember any details.?? Maybe that 
was QTAM.

I've always wondered how much of IBM's techniques influenced the early 
ARPANET mechanisms, e.g., the use of DO/DONT/WILL/WONT negotiations.

Jack

On 5/12/22 14:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 13-May-22 06:58, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>> MQTT has been around for a while.? I think it was originated at IBM.
>
> MQ Series originated at IBM Hursley in the UK in 1993. If this list 
> allowed
> attachments, I'd send a photo of my $1,000,000,000 mug - every employee
> at Hursley received one when MQ Series total revenue hit $1B in about
> 1998. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_MQ
>
> I am no expert, but the article traces the concept back to "BTAM and QTAM
> (Basic and Queued Telecommunications Access Methods)" on OS/360 in 1964.
> RFC 62 itself cites references to formative work on multiprocessing 
> operating
> systems. The issues arose in multiprocessors before they arose in 
> networks.
>
> The formal equivalence between message-oriented systems and 
> procedure-oriented
> systems wasn't noted until 1978 by Lauer and Needham [1], but it was 
> there all
> along. There was a lot of Zeitgeist in those days. There still is.
>
> ?? Brian
>
> [1] Lauer, H.C., Needham, R.M., "On the Duality of Operating Systems 
> Structures,"
> in Proc. Second International Symposium on Operating Systems, IRIA, 
> Oct. 1978,
> reprinted in Operating Systems Review, 13,2 April 1979, pp. 3-19.
>
>> It's now widely used for communications between processes in various
>> "Internet Of Things" scenarios.?? E.g., my model railroad uses it, and
>> my home automation system as well.?? It is message-based rather than
>> using a connection or circuit, can use formats such as JSON to organize
>> the data, and runs over the Internet.
>>
>> See https://mqtt.org/
>>
>> Jack
>>
>> On 5/12/22 11:45, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:
>>> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for 
>>> interprocess communication that did not include the concept of 
>>> "connections" or "circuits". (I believe it was also published in the 
>>> Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess 
>>> communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time 
>>> his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group 
>>> to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been 
>>> implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something 
>>> close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
>>> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
>>
>



From steve at shinkuro.com  Thu May 12 16:23:07 2022
From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker)
Date: Thu, 12 May 2022 19:23:07 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABf5zvKak3Ojfwv-t8JpFS_2-r2TJRViNoy+DxvBBbg3=zPf8w@mail.gmail.com>

Work on the Arpanet host level protocols started with a meeting in August
1968.  Representatives from the first four sites came to a meeting at
UCSB.  Elmer Shapiro from SRI chaired the meeting.  Jeff Rulifson came from
SRI.  Vint and I came from UCLA.  There are notes with the names of the
others.

A series of meetings spaced roughly six weeks apart followed.  I was
immediately focused on how to create a general architecture.  Interprocess
communication came quickly to mind, and I tried to check the literature.
Multics was the most visible and most ambitious operating system at the
time.  If I recall correctly, the only thing I could find regarding
interprocess communication involved using a bit in shared memory for
coordination.  The memory had to support an uninterruptible test and set"
instruction.  I remember thinking we didn't have any shared memory across
the Arpanet, so there wasn't a template I could adapt.

Steve


On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 2:46 PM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for
> interprocess communication that did not include the concept of
> "connections" or "circuits".  (I believe it was also published in the
> Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess
> communication within a single computer.  I believe that at the time his
> proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider
> seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.  That is my
> question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the
> Internet or elsewhere?
> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


From johnl at iecc.com  Thu May 12 18:54:58 2022
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 12 May 2022 21:54:58 -0400
Subject: [ih] mainframe architecture. was Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <ffe38695-dea5-3d38-5452-031adbec28fc@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <20220513015459.61A724007B85@ary.qy>

It appears that Jack Haverty via Internet-history <jack at 3kitty.org> said:
>I have a vague memory that the IBM 360 architecture circa later 60s 
>involved the mainframe CPU and processors in peripheral equipment like 
>disk controllers, communicating over some kind of bus.? So even a single 
>mainframe was a multiprocessor.

Well, sort of.  The 360 used channels for I/O.  Each channel was in principle
a simple computer that could execute a sequence of instructions known as
Channel Command Words.  On the larger models the channels were separate
physical devices, while on the smaller ones the CPU microcode also ran
the channel.  There were standard cables known as bus and tag that connected
the channel to the device controllers.

>Also my recollection is that some form of message-oriented interaction 
>protocol was used to manage disk I/O, since I/O operations often didn't 
>complete in the same order as they were initiated.?

After a CCW started an I/O operation there was "channel end" when the
data transfer was done and "device end" when the physical operation
was done. If you did a separate seek, channel end was immediate so the
channel could do something else while the device moved the arm, and
then sent device end when it was ready for another command.

The bus+tag were sort of publish/subscribe.  The cables were daisy chained
from the channel to the controllers, and each controller had a fixed set
of I/O addresses it responded to.  So the subscriptions were set by jumpers.

> Maybe that was QTAM.

QTAM was several levels up, trying to abstract away the differences among
terminals that used differing data rates, character sets, and I/O interfaces.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queued_Telecommunications_Access_Method

R's,
John



From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com  Fri May 13 09:22:01 2022
From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 16:22:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1856737154.1694466.1652458921306@mail.yahoo.com>

 Thank you all for your informative answers.? I have the information I need.
Alex

    On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 02:45:58 PM EDT, Alex McKenzie <amckenzie3 at yahoo.com> wrote:  
 
 In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for interprocess communication that did not include the concept of "connections" or "circuits".? (I believe it was also published in the Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
Thanks,Alex McKenzie
  

From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Fri May 13 10:18:13 2022
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Fri, 13 May 2022 13:18:13 -0400
Subject: [ih] Interprocess Communication
In-Reply-To: <1856737154.1694466.1652458921306@mail.yahoo.com>
References: <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1696383259.1486069.1652381151671@mail.yahoo.com>
 <1856737154.1694466.1652458921306@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <eb46f17e-d85d-caee-bcd5-42d1aebf660b@meetinghouse.net>

Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:
>   Thank you all for your informative answers.? I have the information I need.
> Alex
>
>      On Thursday, May 12, 2022, 02:45:58 PM EDT, Alex McKenzie <amckenzie3 at yahoo.com> wrote:
>   
>   In August 1970, Dave Walden issued RFC #62, describing a system for interprocess communication that did not include the concept of "connections" or "circuits".? (I believe it was also published in the Communications of the ACM.) It was a generalization of interprocess communication within a single computer.? I believe that at the time his proposal was too radical for the ARPAnet Network Working Group to consider seriously, and so far as I know it has never been implemented.? That is my question: has that concept, or something close, been implemented in the Internet or elsewhere?
> Thanks,Alex McKenzie
>    
Out of curiosity....

What do you need it FOR?? Or is it, just out of curiousity? :-)

Best,

Miles

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown