From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Jun 5 10:24:21 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 10:24:21 -0700 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet Message-ID: This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an interesting way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ Probably only a matter of time before someone adds web hotlinks into the image... so you click on a "country" to go there -- the ultimate "bookmarks" list. /Jack Haverty From joly at punkcast.com Sat Jun 5 11:57:02 2021 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 14:57:02 -0400 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Surprising how many (non-Chinese) ones in there I've never visited. For instance, #235 https://www.worldometers.info/, one notch above the Washington Post. That led me to this https://www.internetlivestats.com/internet-users/, which gives running total of Internet users. joly On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 1:24 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an interesting > way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: > > https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ > > Probably only a matter of time before someone adds web hotlinks into the > image... so you click on a "country" to go there -- the ultimate > "bookmarks" list. > > /Jack Haverty > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - From karl at cavebear.com Sat Jun 5 13:29:48 2021 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 13:29:48 -0700 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's quite a map!!? Reminds me of the social clustering? maps I did at UCLA. and Berkeley. I wonder what that map might say about the notion of governance of the internet based on various kinds of "territory", whether those be national, institutional (e.g. the "nation" of Google+Youtube), protocol (IPv4 and IPv6? - which could be interesting if the substrate, such as 5G were included), etc? The thought that crossed my mind was how we once divided law and authority (at least in Europe) based on whether the matter or the people involved? were secular or religious.? Could the Internet be moving in a similar direction? ??? --karl-- On 6/5/21 10:24 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an > interesting way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: > > https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ > From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Jun 5 14:09:56 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 14:09:56 -0700 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, I pointed to that map because I found it thought provoking. It seems there should be a very interesting "History of the Internet" chapter on Governance - how the Internet was steered and developed into what it is today. IMHO, at the beginning of the Internet, governance was pretty much in the form of Plato's (and others') "benevolent dictator" structure.?? ARPA, mainly Vint and Bob, were the dictators, steering the Internet by controlling the purse strings of funding contracts.?? That certainly changed as the 'net grew, other players joined, and other societal interests exerted influence. I have no idea how to describe Internet governance today, or how it got from there to here.? If someone writes that chapter, I'd love to read it.... /Jack On 6/5/21 1:29 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote: > That's quite a map!!? Reminds me of the social clustering? maps I did > at UCLA. and Berkeley. > > I wonder what that map might say about the notion of governance of the > internet based on various kinds of "territory", whether those be > national, institutional (e.g. the "nation" of Google+Youtube), > protocol (IPv4 and IPv6? - which could be interesting if the > substrate, such as 5G were included), etc? > > The thought that crossed my mind was how we once divided law and > authority (at least in Europe) based on whether the matter or the > people involved? were secular or religious.? Could the Internet be > moving in a similar direction? > > ??? --karl-- > > > On 6/5/21 10:24 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an >> interesting way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: >> >> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ >> From vint at google.com Sat Jun 5 14:12:31 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 17:12:31 -0400 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: see: https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/creation-administration-unique-identifiers-1967-2017-18nov20-en.pdf On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 5:10 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Yes, I pointed to that map because I found it thought provoking. It > seems there should be a very interesting "History of the Internet" > chapter on Governance - how the Internet was steered and developed into > what it is today. > > IMHO, at the beginning of the Internet, governance was pretty much in > the form of Plato's (and others') "benevolent dictator" structure. > ARPA, mainly Vint and Bob, were the dictators, steering the Internet by > controlling the purse strings of funding contracts. That certainly > changed as the 'net grew, other players joined, and other societal > interests exerted influence. > > I have no idea how to describe Internet governance today, or how it got > from there to here. If someone writes that chapter, I'd love to read > it.... > > /Jack > > > On 6/5/21 1:29 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote: > > That's quite a map!! Reminds me of the social clustering maps I did > > at UCLA. and Berkeley. > > > > I wonder what that map might say about the notion of governance of the > > internet based on various kinds of "territory", whether those be > > national, institutional (e.g. the "nation" of Google+Youtube), > > protocol (IPv4 and IPv6 - which could be interesting if the > > substrate, such as 5G were included), etc? > > > > The thought that crossed my mind was how we once divided law and > > authority (at least in Europe) based on whether the matter or the > > people involved were secular or religious. Could the Internet be > > moving in a similar direction? > > > > --karl-- > > > > > > On 6/5/21 10:24 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >> This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an > >> interesting way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: > >> > >> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ > >> > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From jhlowry at mac.com Sat Jun 5 15:19:55 2021 From: jhlowry at mac.com (John Lowry) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 18:19:55 -0400 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27DF2554-D5CB-4FFB-B262-F743D3BEEB36@mac.com> I always thought there was something in this speech that the missing history of the transition of the Internet should address. Disturbingly from a movie titled ?Network?. https://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechnetwork4.html > On Jun 5, 2021, at 5:10 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Yes, I pointed to that map because I found it thought provoking. It seems there should be a very interesting "History of the Internet" chapter on Governance - how the Internet was steered and developed into what it is today. > > IMHO, at the beginning of the Internet, governance was pretty much in the form of Plato's (and others') "benevolent dictator" structure. ARPA, mainly Vint and Bob, were the dictators, steering the Internet by controlling the purse strings of funding contracts. That certainly changed as the 'net grew, other players joined, and other societal interests exerted influence. > > I have no idea how to describe Internet governance today, or how it got from there to here. If someone writes that chapter, I'd love to read it.... > > /Jack > > >> On 6/5/21 1:29 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote: >> That's quite a map!! Reminds me of the social clustering maps I did at UCLA. and Berkeley. >> >> I wonder what that map might say about the notion of governance of the internet based on various kinds of "territory", whether those be national, institutional (e.g. the "nation" of Google+Youtube), protocol (IPv4 and IPv6 - which could be interesting if the substrate, such as 5G were included), etc? >> >> The thought that crossed my mind was how we once divided law and authority (at least in Europe) based on whether the matter or the people involved were secular or religious. Could the Internet be moving in a similar direction? >> >> --karl-- >> >> >>> On 6/5/21 10:24 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >>> This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an interesting way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: >>> >>> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ >>> > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 17:12:44 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 5 Jun 2021 20:12:44 -0400 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: <27DF2554-D5CB-4FFB-B262-F743D3BEEB36@mac.com> References: <27DF2554-D5CB-4FFB-B262-F743D3BEEB36@mac.com> Message-ID: skynet.... v On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 6:20 PM John Lowry via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I always thought there was something in this speech that the missing > history of the transition of the Internet should address. Disturbingly > from a movie titled ?Network?. > > https://www.americanrhetoric.com/MovieSpeeches/moviespeechnetwork4.html > > > > On Jun 5, 2021, at 5:10 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > ?Yes, I pointed to that map because I found it thought provoking. It > seems there should be a very interesting "History of the Internet" chapter > on Governance - how the Internet was steered and developed into what it is > today. > > > > IMHO, at the beginning of the Internet, governance was pretty much in > the form of Plato's (and others') "benevolent dictator" structure. ARPA, > mainly Vint and Bob, were the dictators, steering the Internet by > controlling the purse strings of funding contracts. That certainly > changed as the 'net grew, other players joined, and other societal > interests exerted influence. > > > > I have no idea how to describe Internet governance today, or how it got > from there to here. If someone writes that chapter, I'd love to read it.... > > > > /Jack > > > > > >> On 6/5/21 1:29 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote: > >> That's quite a map!! Reminds me of the social clustering maps I did > at UCLA. and Berkeley. > >> > >> I wonder what that map might say about the notion of governance of the > internet based on various kinds of "territory", whether those be national, > institutional (e.g. the "nation" of Google+Youtube), protocol (IPv4 and > IPv6 - which could be interesting if the substrate, such as 5G were > included), etc? > >> > >> The thought that crossed my mind was how we once divided law and > authority (at least in Europe) based on whether the matter or the people > involved were secular or religious. Could the Internet be moving in a > similar direction? > >> > >> --karl-- > >> > >> > >>> On 6/5/21 10:24 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >>> This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an > interesting way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: > >>> > >>> https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ > >>> > > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From dikshie at gmail.com Sat Jun 5 19:42:36 2021 From: dikshie at gmail.com (dikshie) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 11:42:36 +0900 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, I suddenly remembered this map: https://history-of-the-internet.yahoo.co.jp/ Sorry it's in Japanese only. Best Regards, Dikshie On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:24 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an interesting > way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: > > https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ > > Probably only a matter of time before someone adds web hotlinks into the > image... so you click on a "country" to go there -- the ultimate > "bookmarks" list. > > /Jack Haverty > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- -dikshie- From vgcerf at gmail.com Sun Jun 6 00:45:56 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sun, 6 Jun 2021 03:45:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] Snapshot of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: that's quite a production. v On Sat, Jun 5, 2021 at 10:43 PM dikshie via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I suddenly remembered this map: > https://history-of-the-internet.yahoo.co.jp/ > Sorry it's in Japanese only. > > > Best Regards, > Dikshie > > > On Sun, Jun 6, 2021 at 2:24 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > wrote: > > > > This seemed like it might be of historical interest, and an interesting > > way to envision the big-picture state of the Internet today: > > > > https://www.visualcapitalist.com/the-online-world-mapped-2021/ > > > > Probably only a matter of time before someone adds web hotlinks into the > > image... so you click on a "country" to go there -- the ultimate > > "bookmarks" list. > > > > /Jack Haverty > > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > -dikshie- > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From vgcerf at gmail.com Mon Jun 7 03:58:11 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2021 06:58:11 -0400 Subject: [ih] INWG Notes 1972-1981 Message-ID: Alex McKenzie provided hard copy which was scanned at my request by University of MIchigan. You should have access to these documents here vint From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Jun 8 21:22:31 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 16:22:31 +1200 Subject: [ih] We missed PGP's birthday party, apparently Message-ID: https://www.theregister.com/2021/06/08/pgp_at_30/ Regards Brian Carpenter From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Jun 9 09:14:49 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 09:14:49 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? Message-ID: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol design effort. In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial RFC. Anyone able/willing to comment? tnx. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From kevin at Dunlap.Org Wed Jun 9 10:11:34 2021 From: kevin at Dunlap.Org (Kevin J Dunlap) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 10:11:34 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT." <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group, Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the initial BIND project team. Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters. Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC. RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS. I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG. -Kevin Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT >Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: > > "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" > >Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) > >I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol >design effort. > >In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial RFC. > >Anyone able/willing to comment? > >tnx. > >d/ >-- >Dave Crocker >Brandenburg InternetWorking >bbiw.net >-- >Internet-history mailing list >Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 11:17:29 2021 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 18:17:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> Message-ID: <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> I remember thoughts about DNS were? developed enough by summer of 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't remember if Paul Mockepetris was there.? barbara On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 10:15:08 AM PDT, Kevin J Dunlap via Internet-history wrote: Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group, Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the initial BIND project team.? Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters. Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC. RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS. I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG. -Kevin Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT >Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: > >? ? ? "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" > >Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) > >I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol >design effort. > >In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial RFC. > >Anyone able/willing to comment? > >tnx. > >d/ >-- >Dave Crocker >Brandenburg InternetWorking >bbiw.net >-- >Internet-history mailing list >Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 12:24:41 2021 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 19:24:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1965512345.5512956.1623266681919@mail.yahoo.com> I should mention the meeting could have also been the first meeting of SURAN, the follow on project to packet radio in case anyone tries to locate meeting minutes.? I don't remember exactly when packet radio ended and SURAN began. barbara? On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 11:17:29 AM PDT, Barbara Denny wrote: I remember thoughts about DNS were? developed enough by summer of 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't remember if Paul Mockepetris was there.? barbara On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 10:15:08 AM PDT, Kevin J Dunlap via Internet-history wrote: Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group, Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the initial BIND project team.? Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters. Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC. RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS. I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG. -Kevin Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT >Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: > >? ? ? "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" > >Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) > >I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol >design effort. > >In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial RFC. > >Anyone able/willing to comment? > >tnx. > >d/ >-- >Dave Crocker >Brandenburg InternetWorking >bbiw.net >-- >Internet-history mailing list >Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Jun 9 12:29:31 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 12:29:31 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > I remember thoughts about DNS were? developed enough by summer of 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. Some additions about timeline: I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It included support for domain name, which is to say support for the dotted name notation in a host reference. SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written by Jon.) I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was developed through group discussion, over email. I don't even recall a face-to-face meeting for it. SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as the message transited a hop. I had not yet understood that this was not a source route. So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism -- was fully set by Fall of 1982. (I'm not saying the latter wasn't but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From eric.gade at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 13:02:59 2021 From: eric.gade at gmail.com (Eric Gade) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 16:02:59 -0400 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 3:29 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic > hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism > -- was fully set by Fall of 1982. (I'm not saying the latter wasn't but > that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) > > In my own research on this topic , I found that the specific kind of hierarchy (that is to say, some combination of fixed gTLDs along with the ccTLDs) was not all put together until about May 1984. This is when Postel sent out a draft RFC that changed the initial proposed named likc COR and PUB to COM and ORG, and also added the ISO-3166 country-code names. I cover some of this in my paper on the topic. Anyone interested in other aspects of this should also check out Jake Feinler's paper from a few years ago that also provides more detail. -- Eric From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jun 9 13:16:25 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 13:16:25 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably 1980/81. There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the other was arguing for more simplicity. I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently, in the heat of a battlefield operation. These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs not long after that meeting in San Diego. Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s... /Jack Haverty On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of >> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio >> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I >> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my >> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't >> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. > > > Some additions about timeline: > > > I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. > > > However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively > small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It > included support for domain name, which is to say support for the > dotted name notation in a host reference. > > SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written > by Jon.) > > I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support > in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was > developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a > face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. > > I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of > domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the > entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as > the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was > not a source route. > > So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic > hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism > -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't > but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) > > d/ > From kevin at Dunlap.Org Wed Jun 9 13:22:29 2021 From: kevin at Dunlap.Org (Kevin J Dunlap) Date: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 13:22:29 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 09 Jun 2021 13:16:25 PDT." <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <202106092022.159KMTig075842@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> Namedroppers was the email list for DNS discussion. I couldn't get mailarchive.ietf.org to go back far enought. Here is a link that will get you the archive of Namedroppers back to March 1983. https://marc.info/?l=namedroppers&r=1&w=2 RFC - 883 DOMAIN NAMES - IMPLEMENTATION and SPECIFICATION Was published in November 1983. -Kevin Your message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 13:16:25 PDT >I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the >design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in >San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.?? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that >occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held >somewhere in California.???? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably 1980/81. > >There were two "camps" involved in the debate.?? One was arguing for >powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the >other was arguing for more simplicity. > >I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying >to solve.???? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which >changed their IMP ports very rarely.???? Expectations were that Internet >addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed >on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the >various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.???? Their >expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently, >in the heat of a battlefield operation. > >These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different >solutions.?? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs >not long after that meeting in San Diego. > >Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see >IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt?? and 116 - >https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt > >I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s... > >/Jack Haverty > > >On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >> On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>> ?? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of >>> 1983 that?? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio >>> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.?? Unfortunately I >>> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my >>> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't >>> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. >> >> >> Some additions about timeline: >> >> >> I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. >> >> >> However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively >> small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It >> included support for domain name, which is to say support for the >> dotted name notation in a host reference. >> >> SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written >> by Jon.) >> >> I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support >> in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was >> developed through group discussion, over email.?? I don't even recall a >> face-to-face meeting for it.?? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. >> >> I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of >> domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the >> entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as >> the message transited a hop.?? I had not yet understood that this was >> not a source route. >> >> So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic >> hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism >> -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.?? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't >> but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) >> >> d/ >> > > >-- >Internet-history mailing list >Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 14:00:09 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 09:00:09 +1200 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> References: <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> Message-ID: <9429a109-6138-3749-38d2-401d5cf77798@gmail.com> fwiw "where wizards stay up late" page 252 says "The core of the DNS team was Jon Postel and Paul Mockapetris at ISI, and BBN's Craig Partridge. They spent three months working out the details and in November 1983 came forward with two RFCs..." I assume that BIND came a bit later. Regards Brian Carpenter On 10-Jun-21 05:11, Kevin J Dunlap via Internet-history wrote: > Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group, > Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the initial BIND project team. > Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters. > > Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC. > > RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS. > I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG. > > -Kevin > > > > > > Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT >> Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: >> >> "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" >> >> Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) >> >> I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol >> design effort. >> >> In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial RFC. >> >> Anyone able/willing to comment? >> >> tnx. >> >> d/ >> -- >> Dave Crocker >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> bbiw.net >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Jun 9 14:26:13 2021 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 21:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> I am curious about the dates you suggest.? ?I was in the mobility perspective camp but I don't remember anyone telling me that this had been discussed before or providing me any? information in this context at the time.? I didn't start working on packet radio until the end of 1981, or perhaps the beginning of 1982, so anything done? prior to those dates I might not have been aware of.? However, I would have thought other people at BBN would have mentioned it since I am? pretty sure Jil Westcott, BBN packet radio project manager,? ? is the one who gave me the assignment for the meeting. barbara On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 01:16:37 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably 1980/81. There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the other was arguing for more simplicity. I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently, in the heat of a battlefield operation. These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs not long after that meeting in San Diego. Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 - https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s... /Jack Haverty On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of >> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio >> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I >> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my >> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't >> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. > > > Some additions about timeline: > > > I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. > > > However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively > small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It > included support for domain name, which is to say support for the > dotted name notation in a host reference. > > SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written > by Jon.) > > I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support > in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was > developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a > face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. > > I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of > domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the > entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as > the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was > not a source route. > > So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic > hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism > -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't > but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) > > d/ > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jun 9 15:01:27 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 15:01:27 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> It's been a long time....?? I remember the debate, and that it was somewhere in California.? I thought it was San Diego, but might have been PARC.? There was a large auditorium with theater-style seating where the discussion occurred. This meeting may have happened before the D appeared in DNS.? There had been ongoing discussions of how to do a Name Server for the Internet, since the ARPANET style mechanism using a file at SRI-NIC couldn't handle the obvious impending torrent of workstations on LANs that TCP made possible for the network community.?? It was one of the topics on the ICCB's list of "things we have to work on". Jon had published several IENs on "Internet Name Server", starting IIRC with #61. The discussion I remember concerned the methods and timing involved in updating a name/address pair when there was a collection of servers on the Internet.?? The "simple" mechanism could take as much as a day or so for any change to propagate out to reach all the servers.? That was of course incompatible with the changes expected with mobile hosts, or even LANs.?? It was obvious even then that it was much easier to move a Sparcstation than a PDP-10.?? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning smartphones or Dick Tracy watches as perhaps the ultimate "mobile host".?? But we have them today and the Internet still seems to work... The early versions of the protocol, again IIRC, structured names somewhat like IP addresses, with "Net" and "Rest" parts.?? But that would have problems if a computer moved from one network to another (no one had laptops yet...and no wifi either) So, at some point that "Internet Name Server" approach was changed to incorporate Domains so that names didn't necessarily correspond to any physical network structure, and anybody could pick whatever names they wanted in their own world/domain. Roughly at about the same time, Jon Schoch wrote his seminal "Names, Addresses, and Routes" paper, which brought a lot of thinking into a cohesive idea.?? Xerox protocols (PUP et al) had their own schemes for naming, and PARC people did participate in Internet meetings. History IMHO should look at what was going on in other communities at the same time.? The Internet did not evolve in a vacuum. I remember all this stuff happening (and namedroppers, another of those mailing lists where lots of technical interaction happened). But dates - not so much...?? So, depending on what the "origins of DNS" means, I'd point to Jon's earliest IEN as the start of Name Servers on the Internet. /Jack On 6/9/21 2:26 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > I am curious about the dates you suggest.? ?I was in the mobility perspective camp but I don't remember anyone telling me that this had been discussed before or providing me any? information in this context at the time.? I didn't start working on packet radio until the end of 1981, or perhaps the beginning of 1982, so anything done? prior to those dates I might not have been aware of.? However, I would have thought other people at BBN would have mentioned it since I am? pretty sure Jil Westcott, BBN packet radio project manager,? ? is the one who gave me the assignment for the meeting. > barbara > > On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 01:16:37 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the > design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in > San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that > occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held > somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably 1980/81. > > There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for > powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the > other was arguing for more simplicity. > > I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying > to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which > changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet > addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed > on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the > various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their > expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently, > in the heat of a battlefield operation. > > These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different > solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs > not long after that meeting in San Diego. > > Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see > IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 - > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt > > I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s... > > /Jack Haverty > > > On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: >> On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>> ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of >>> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio >>> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I >>> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my >>> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't >>> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. >> >> Some additions about timeline: >> >> >> I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. >> >> >> However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively >> small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It >> included support for domain name, which is to say support for the >> dotted name notation in a host reference. >> >> SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written >> by Jon.) >> >> I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support >> in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was >> developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a >> face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. >> >> I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of >> domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the >> entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as >> the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was >> not a source route. >> >> So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic >> hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism >> -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't >> but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) >> >> d/ >> > From cabo at tzi.org Wed Jun 9 18:26:27 2021 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 03:26:27 +0200 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 10. Jun 2021, at 00:01, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > no one had laptops yet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass: Release date April 1982 (I vividly remember seeing one on a trade show, probably 1983, and thinking ?so this is the way we are going to work?? Took till 1988 until I had my first Toshiba laptop. Added a portable ink-jet, and I completely dominated the standards meetings with that combo. Modem and "FTP Software??s PC/TCP... At the time, the main equipment supporting a standards meeting was a kitchen-size Xerox copier pipeline? But I digress.) Gr??e, Carsten From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 19:14:20 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 14:14:20 +1200 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 10-Jun-21 13:26, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: > On 10. Jun 2021, at 00:01, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> no one had laptops yet > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass: > > Release date April 1982 https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first graphic amber plasma flat screen." Brian > > (I vividly remember seeing one on a trade show, probably 1983, and thinking ?so this is the way we are going to work?? > Took till 1988 until I had my first Toshiba laptop. > Added a portable ink-jet, and I completely dominated the standards meetings with that combo. > Modem and "FTP Software??s PC/TCP... > At the time, the main equipment supporting a standards meeting was a kitchen-size Xerox copier pipeline? But I digress.) > > Gr??e, Carsten > From tte at cs.fau.de Wed Jun 9 20:40:12 2021 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 05:40:12 +0200 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20210610034012.GW3909@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Well, the domain element ordering coming out of the USA with the likes of rfc822 was of course horribly wrong and even had a prime minister quit: https://spaf.cerias.purdue.edu/~spaf/Yucks/V0/msg00141.html (still one of the best classic email jokes) Not sure if one can pinpoint a single place of origin of structured "domain-names" leading to DNS, probably the DNS authors would know best what influenced them most. 1982 was a bit before my time. When i started managing email at my university a few years later, the passed around sendmail.cf one had to fiddle with (including left<->right ordering to deal with he UK) did look from as if a lot of networks had all type of structured addresses without them necessarily relying on DNS, e.g.: possible predecessors ? X.400 was also written in 1982 and nobody liked its native address represntation but was using 'domain' style syntax in X.400 applications. John Quartermans The Matrix might have some useful historical info too. Chers Toerless On Wed, Jun 09, 2021 at 12:29:31PM -0700, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > I remember thoughts about DNS were? developed enough by summer of 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. > > > Some additions about timeline: > > > I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. > > > However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively small > modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It included support > for domain name, which is to say support for the dotted name notation in a > host reference. > > SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written by > Jon.) > > I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support in > RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was developed > through group discussion, over email. I don't even recall a face-to-face > meeting for it. SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. > > I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of domain > names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the entire domain > name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as the message > transited a hop. I had not yet understood that this was not a source route. > > So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic hierarchy -- > distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism -- was fully set > by Fall of 1982. (I'm not saying the latter wasn't but that I don't know > anything about that part of the design timeline.) > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- --- tte at cs.fau.de From j at shoch.com Wed Jun 9 20:52:53 2021 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 20:52:53 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm certainly no expert on DNS, but let me support the notion that there is a significant difference between a basic name server (such as Postel's IEN 89 proposal, in 1979), and a robust, distributed naming capability (such as DNS). https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt John Shoch [PS: In our parallel universe at PARC, other people (not me) had developed: --A basic name server implemented as part of PUP in the late 70's, and published in 1979: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/alto/ethernet/pupArch.pdf --A more general distributed naming/binding service (the Clearinghouse) implemented as part of XNS, and published by Oppen and Dalal in 1981: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/OPD-T8103_The_Clearinghouse.pdf ] On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 6:26 PM wrote: > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: DNS origins? (Brian E Carpenter) > 2. Re: DNS origins? (Barbara Denny) > 3. Re: DNS origins? (Jack Haverty) > 4. Re: DNS origins? (Carsten Bormann) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 09:00:09 +1200 > From: Brian E Carpenter > To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins? > Message-ID: <9429a109-6138-3749-38d2-401d5cf77798 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > fwiw "where wizards stay up late" page 252 says > > "The core of the DNS team was Jon Postel and Paul Mockapetris at ISI, and > BBN's Craig Partridge. They spent three months working out the details and > in November 1983 came forward with two RFCs..." > > I assume that BIND came a bit later. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 10-Jun-21 05:11, Kevin J Dunlap via Internet-history wrote: > > Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group, > > Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the > initial BIND project team. > > Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters. > > > > Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC. > > > > RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS. > > I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG. > > > > -Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT > >> Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: > >> > >> "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" > >> > >> Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) > >> > >> I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol > >> design effort. > >> > >> In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial > RFC. > >> > >> Anyone able/willing to comment? > >> > >> tnx. > >> > >> d/ > >> -- > >> Dave Crocker > >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >> bbiw.net > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 21:26:13 +0000 (UTC) > From: Barbara Denny > To: Internet-history > Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins? > Message-ID: <610666796.5565957.1623273973741 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > I am curious about the dates you suggest.? ?I was in the mobility > perspective camp but I don't remember anyone telling me that this had been > discussed before or providing me any? information in this context at the > time.? I didn't start working on packet radio until the end of 1981, or > perhaps the beginning of 1982, so anything done? prior to those dates I > might not have been aware of.? However, I would have thought other people > at BBN would have mentioned it since I am? pretty sure Jil Westcott, BBN > packet radio project manager,? ? is the one who gave me the assignment for > the meeting. > barbara > > On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 01:16:37 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the > design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in > San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that > occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held > somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably > 1980/81. > > There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for > powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the > other was arguing for more simplicity. > > I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying > to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which > changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet > addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed > on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the > various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their > expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently, > in the heat of a battlefield operation. > > These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different > solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs > not long after that meeting in San Diego. > > Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see > IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 - > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt > > I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s... > > /Jack Haverty > > > On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > >> ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of > >> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio > >> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I > >> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my > >> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't > >> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. > > > > > > Some additions about timeline: > > > > > > I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. > > > > > > However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively > > small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It > > included support for domain name, which is to say support for the > > dotted name notation in a host reference. > > > > SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written > > by Jon.) > > > > I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support > > in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was > > developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a > > face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. > > > > I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of > > domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the > > entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as > > the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was > > not a source route. > > > > So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic > > hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism > > -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't > > but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) > > > > d/ > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Wed, 9 Jun 2021 15:01:27 -0700 > From: Jack Haverty > To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins? > Message-ID: <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6 at 3kitty.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > It's been a long time....?? I remember the debate, and that it was > somewhere in California.? I thought it was San Diego, but might have > been PARC.? There was a large auditorium with theater-style seating > where the discussion occurred. > > This meeting may have happened before the D appeared in DNS.? There had > been ongoing discussions of how to do a Name Server for the Internet, > since the ARPANET style mechanism using a file at SRI-NIC couldn't > handle the obvious impending torrent of workstations on LANs that TCP > made possible for the network community.?? It was one of the topics on > the ICCB's list of "things we have to work on". Jon had published > several IENs on "Internet Name Server", starting IIRC with #61. > > The discussion I remember concerned the methods and timing involved in > updating a name/address pair when there was a collection of servers on > the Internet.?? The "simple" mechanism could take as much as a day or so > for any change to propagate out to reach all the servers.? That was of > course incompatible with the changes expected with mobile hosts, or even > LANs.?? It was obvious even then that it was much easier to move a > Sparcstation than a PDP-10.?? I don't recall anyone ever mentioning > smartphones or Dick Tracy watches as perhaps the ultimate "mobile > host".?? But we have them today and the Internet still seems to work... > > The early versions of the protocol, again IIRC, structured names > somewhat like IP addresses, with "Net" and "Rest" parts.?? But that > would have problems if a computer moved from one network to another (no > one had laptops yet...and no wifi either) > > So, at some point that "Internet Name Server" approach was changed to > incorporate Domains so that names didn't necessarily correspond to any > physical network structure, and anybody could pick whatever names they > wanted in their own world/domain. > > Roughly at about the same time, Jon Schoch wrote his seminal "Names, > Addresses, and Routes" paper, which brought a lot of thinking into a > cohesive idea.?? Xerox protocols (PUP et al) had their own schemes for > naming, and PARC people did participate in Internet meetings. History > IMHO should look at what was going on in other communities at the same > time.? The Internet did not evolve in a vacuum. > > I remember all this stuff happening (and namedroppers, another of those > mailing lists where lots of technical interaction happened). But dates - > not so much...?? So, depending on what the "origins of DNS" means, I'd > point to Jon's earliest IEN as the start of Name Servers on the Internet. > > /Jack > > > On 6/9/21 2:26 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > I am curious about the dates you suggest.? ?I was in the mobility > perspective camp but I don't remember anyone telling me that this had been > discussed before or providing me any? information in this context at the > time.? I didn't start working on packet radio until the end of 1981, or > perhaps the beginning of 1982, so anything done? prior to those dates I > might not have been aware of.? However, I would have thought other people > at BBN would have mentioned it since I am? pretty sure Jil Westcott, BBN > packet radio project manager,? ? is the one who gave me the assignment for > the meeting. > > barbara > > > > On Wednesday, June 9, 2021, 01:16:37 PM PDT, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > > > I remember a lengthy discussion and somewhat heated debate about the > > design for the Internet's name system at the Internet Meeting held in > > San Diego, IIRC at Linkabit.? Sorry, I can't remember exactly when that > > occurred, but it was one of the "winter" meetings which were always held > > somewhere in California.?? Pretty sure it was before 1982, probably > 1980/81. > > > > There were two "camps" involved in the debate.? One was arguing for > > powerful mechanisms to handle updates of name/address mappings; the > > other was arguing for more simplicity. > > > > I remember asking the two camps to explain what problem they were trying > > to solve.?? One camp was focussed on ARPANET-style host computers, which > > changed their IMP ports very rarely.?? Expectations were that Internet > > addresses would change in a similar pattern. The other camp was focussed > > on what could be called the "mobile host" problem, exemplified by the > > various Packet Radio experiments that had been going on.?? Their > > expectation was that IP addresses might change rapidly and frequently, > > in the heat of a battlefield operation. > > > > These were obviously very different problems, motivating very different > > solutions.? IIRC, the debate led to the DNS implementations and specs > > not long after that meeting in San Diego. > > > > Note that the notion of "Internet Name Server" existed before DNS - see > > IEN 89 -- https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien89.txt? and 116 - > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien116.txt > > > > I'll have to look through my old notebooks from the 80s... > > > > /Jack Haverty > > > > > > On 6/9/21 12:29 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > >> On 6/9/2021 11:17 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > >>> ? I remember thoughts about DNS were developed enough by summer of > >>> 1983 that? I was asked to prepare a talk about DNS and packet radio > >>> at what I believe was the last packet radio meeting.? Unfortunately I > >>> don't remember what I used to learn about DNS so I could prepare my > >>> thoughts. I remember this is where I met Jon Postel but I don't > >>> remember if Paul Mockepetris was there. > >> > >> Some additions about timeline: > >> > >> > >> I had nothing to do with the creation of any aspect of the DNS. > >> > >> > >> However RFC 822, defining Internet mail format -- with relatively > >> small modifications from RFC 733 --as published August 1982. It > >> included support for domain name, which is to say support for the > >> dotted name notation in a host reference. > >> > >> SMTP also added domain name support, at the same time. (duh. Written > >> by Jon.) > >> > >> I do not remember the details of how the directive to add this support > >> in RFC 822 developed nor how I was told of the syntax. 822 was > >> developed through group discussion, over email.? I don't even recall a > >> face-to-face meeting for it.? SMTP definitely did have f2f sessions. > >> > >> I only recall one discussion with Jon, concerning the handling of > >> domain names in SMTP, where I was confused that it always passed the > >> entire domain name, rather than stripping off the right-hand field, as > >> the message transited a hop.? I had not yet understood that this was > >> not a source route. > >> > >> So I believe the general concept of the administrative/semantic > >> hierarchy -- distinct from the distributed operational query mechanism > >> -- was fully set by Fall of 1982.? (I'm not saying the latter wasn't > >> but that I don't know anything about that part of the design timeline.) > >> > >> d/ > >> > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 03:26:27 +0200 > From: Carsten Bormann > To: Jack Haverty > Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: Re: [ih] DNS origins? > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 10. Jun 2021, at 00:01, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > no one had laptops yet > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass: > > Release date April 1982 > > (I vividly remember seeing one on a trade show, probably 1983, and > thinking ?so this is the way we are going to work?? > Took till 1988 until I had my first Toshiba laptop. > Added a portable ink-jet, and I completely dominated the standards > meetings with that combo. > Modem and "FTP Software??s PC/TCP... > At the time, the main equipment supporting a standards meeting was a > kitchen-size Xerox copier pipeline? But I digress.) > > Gr??e, Carsten > > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7 > *********************************************** > From salo at saloits.com Wed Jun 9 22:56:15 2021 From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 00:56:15 -0500 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> On 6/9/2021 9:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first graphic amber plasma flat screen." I thought that the Plato terminal, circa 1964, was the first practical plasma display. The first practical plasma video display was co-invented in 1964 at the University of Illinois at Urbana?Champaign by Donald Bitzer, H. Gene Slottow, and graduate student Robert Willson for the PLATO computer system. Also, And, even more off-topic: In August 2004, a version of PLATO corresponding to the final release from CDC was resurrected online. This version of PLATO runs on a free and open-source software emulation of the original CDC hardware called Desktop Cyber. ... Desktop Cyber accurately emulates in software a range of CDC Cyber mainframe models and many peripherals. o Now, I just need a nine-track tape drive to read my old tapes. o How much faster is my Raspberry Pi 4 (1.5 GHz clock, 8 GB memory) emulating a CDC 6600 (10 MHz clock, 982 KB memory)? -tjs From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Jun 9 23:58:56 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian Carpenter) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 18:58:56 +1200 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> Message-ID: Sure. My (unwritten) question was what flat-screen technology did they use? I suppose a plasma display was the only option then. The original touch screens invented at CERN by Stumpe in 1972/3 were based on CRT displays, but certainly plasma displays were known by then. Regards, Brian Carpenter (via tiny screen & keyboard) On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, 17:56 Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history, < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 6/9/2021 9:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes > interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first > graphic amber plasma flat screen." > > I thought that the Plato terminal, circa 1964, was the first practical > plasma display. > > The first practical plasma video display was co-invented in 1964 at > the University of Illinois at Urbana?Champaign by Donald Bitzer, H. > Gene Slottow, and graduate student Robert Willson for the PLATO > computer system. > > > > Also, > > > > And, even more off-topic: > > In August 2004, a version of PLATO corresponding to the final > release from CDC was resurrected online. This version of PLATO > runs on a free and open-source software emulation of the original > CDC hardware called Desktop Cyber. ... Desktop Cyber accurately > emulates in software a range of CDC Cyber mainframe models and > many peripherals. > > o Now, I just need a nine-track tape drive to read my old tapes. > > o How much faster is my Raspberry Pi 4 (1.5 GHz clock, 8 GB memory) > emulating a CDC 6600 (10 MHz clock, 982 KB memory)? > > -tjs > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From nigel at channelisles.net Thu Jun 10 00:18:08 2021 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 08:18:08 +0100 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Depends how you define 'laptop'. Osborne 1 anyone?? (1981) On 10/06/2021 02:26, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: > On 10. Jun 2021, at 00:01, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> no one had laptops yet > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass: > > Release date April 1982 > > (I vividly remember seeing one on a trade show, probably 1983, and thinking ?so this is the way we are going to work?? > Took till 1988 until I had my first Toshiba laptop. > Added a portable ink-jet, and I completely dominated the standards meetings with that combo. > Modem and "FTP Software??s PC/TCP... > At the time, the main equipment supporting a standards meeting was a kitchen-size Xerox copier pipeline? But I digress.) > > Gr??e, Carsten > From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 03:47:35 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 06:47:35 -0400 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> Message-ID: <247F9E68-968B-4E35-9034-CB9FA8121D49@comcast.net> That is correct. As an undergrad, I had second semester (~67-8) Circuit Theory from Slottow. ;-) In 1975, after putting the first Unix on the ?Net, we stripped down Unix to put it on an LSI-11 in a pedestal with floppy drive, a Plato Plasma screen sitting on top to which we added ?touch? to create an ?intelligent terminal? for a land-use management database system for the 6 counties around Chicago. It had a keyboard but it was seldom needed. The terminal was all menu driven, could plot different forms of graphs (bar, line, circle, etc.) and draw maps down to the section* (square mile) with different patterns, but of course monochrome. (I wrote the mapping software.) So this was undoubtedly the first plasma screen ?personal computer? ;-) There were several done for the land-use system and several deployed with in the DoD in at least DC and Hawaii and perhaps elsewhere, that I don?t remember. * The Northwest Ordinance of 1787 required the then Northwest Territories (Ohio to Illinois and north) to be surveyed into 1 mile squares called Sections, 6 x 6 sections is a township. Which is why you see a grid when flying over it. The country roads tend to run on the section lines. Take care, John > On Jun 10, 2021, at 01:56, Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history wrote: > > On 6/9/2021 9:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first graphic amber plasma flat screen." > > I thought that the Plato terminal, circa 1964, was the first practical > plasma display. > > The first practical plasma video display was co-invented in 1964 at > the University of Illinois at Urbana?Champaign by Donald Bitzer, H. > Gene Slottow, and graduate student Robert Willson for the PLATO > computer system. > > > > Also, > > > > And, even more off-topic: > > In August 2004, a version of PLATO corresponding to the final > release from CDC was resurrected online. This version of PLATO > runs on a free and open-source software emulation of the original > CDC hardware called Desktop Cyber. ... Desktop Cyber accurately > emulates in software a range of CDC Cyber mainframe models and > many peripherals. > > o Now, I just need a nine-track tape drive to read my old tapes. > > o How much faster is my Raspberry Pi 4 (1.5 GHz clock, 8 GB memory) > emulating a CDC 6600 (10 MHz clock, 982 KB memory)? > > -tjs > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 03:50:45 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 06:50:45 -0400 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> Message-ID: <83C1BDAB-C553-45D4-98D3-C2F456312452@comcast.net> The touch facility that we did in ?75 wasn?t on the screen but with infrared sensors (I think) around the edge of the screen. Plato was using the plasma screens well before, we did that terminal. We just grabbed a few for that project. John > On Jun 10, 2021, at 02:58, Brian Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Sure. My (unwritten) question was what flat-screen technology did they use? > I suppose a plasma display was the only option then. The original touch > screens invented at CERN by Stumpe in 1972/3 were based on CRT displays, > but certainly plasma displays were known by then. > > Regards, > Brian Carpenter > (via tiny screen & keyboard) > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, 17:56 Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history, < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On 6/9/2021 9:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >>> https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes >> interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first >> graphic amber plasma flat screen." >> >> I thought that the Plato terminal, circa 1964, was the first practical >> plasma display. >> >> The first practical plasma video display was co-invented in 1964 at >> the University of Illinois at Urbana?Champaign by Donald Bitzer, H. >> Gene Slottow, and graduate student Robert Willson for the PLATO >> computer system. >> >> >> >> Also, >> >> >> >> And, even more off-topic: >> >> In August 2004, a version of PLATO corresponding to the final >> release from CDC was resurrected online. This version of PLATO >> runs on a free and open-source software emulation of the original >> CDC hardware called Desktop Cyber. ... Desktop Cyber accurately >> emulates in software a range of CDC Cyber mainframe models and >> many peripherals. >> >> o Now, I just need a nine-track tape drive to read my old tapes. >> >> o How much faster is my Raspberry Pi 4 (1.5 GHz clock, 8 GB memory) >> emulating a CDC 6600 (10 MHz clock, 982 KB memory)? >> >> -tjs >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 03:52:36 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 06:52:36 -0400 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <83C1BDAB-C553-45D4-98D3-C2F456312452@comcast.net> References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> <83C1BDAB-C553-45D4-98D3-C2F456312452@comcast.net> Message-ID: I think there is a book about PLATO and the plasma screen titled "The Friendly Orange Glow" http://friendlyorangeglow.com/ v On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 6:51 AM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > The touch facility that we did in ?75 wasn?t on the screen but with > infrared sensors (I think) around the edge of the screen. > > Plato was using the plasma screens well before, we did that terminal. We > just grabbed a few for that project. > > John > > > On Jun 10, 2021, at 02:58, Brian Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > Sure. My (unwritten) question was what flat-screen technology did they > use? > > I suppose a plasma display was the only option then. The original touch > > screens invented at CERN by Stumpe in 1972/3 were based on CRT displays, > > but certainly plasma displays were known by then. > > > > Regards, > > Brian Carpenter > > (via tiny screen & keyboard) > > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, 17:56 Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history, < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> On 6/9/2021 9:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > >>> https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes > >> interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first > >> graphic amber plasma flat screen." > >> > >> I thought that the Plato terminal, circa 1964, was the first practical > >> plasma display. > >> > >> The first practical plasma video display was co-invented in 1964 at > >> the University of Illinois at Urbana?Champaign by Donald Bitzer, H. > >> Gene Slottow, and graduate student Robert Willson for the PLATO > >> computer system. > >> > >> > >> > >> Also, > >> > >> > >> > >> And, even more off-topic: > >> > >> In August 2004, a version of PLATO corresponding to the final > >> release from CDC was resurrected online. This version of PLATO > >> runs on a free and open-source software emulation of the original > >> CDC hardware called Desktop Cyber. ... Desktop Cyber accurately > >> emulates in software a range of CDC Cyber mainframe models and > >> many peripherals. > >> > >> o Now, I just need a nine-track tape drive to read my old tapes. > >> > >> o How much faster is my Raspberry Pi 4 (1.5 GHz clock, 8 GB memory) > >> emulating a CDC 6600 (10 MHz clock, 982 KB memory)? > >> > >> -tjs > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From craig at tereschau.net Thu Jun 10 04:01:37 2021 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 07:01:37 -0400 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: <9429a109-6138-3749-38d2-401d5cf77798@gmail.com> References: <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <9429a109-6138-3749-38d2-401d5cf77798@gmail.com> Message-ID: That falls under the don't believe everything you read category. I had zero influence on the early DNS. My role was as an early adopter. I was the person CSNET tagged to make sure the DNS worked for our users. So I did a lot of testing of BIND for Kevin. Rewriting MMDF for the DNS, I realized that MD/MF RRs didn't work and proposed a fix Jon hated and so Jon tasked me (with help from Paul and some others) to find a better solution, which was MX RRs. Finally, as part of the debugging process I got drawn into finalizing the initial list of TLDs -- so you can (largely) blame me for .NET Craig On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 5:00 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > fwiw "where wizards stay up late" page 252 says > > "The core of the DNS team was Jon Postel and Paul Mockapetris at ISI, and > BBN's Craig Partridge. They spent three months working out the details and > in November 1983 came forward with two RFCs..." > > I assume that BIND came a bit later. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 10-Jun-21 05:11, Kevin J Dunlap via Internet-history wrote: > > Yes, at UC Berkeley Computer Systems Research Group, > > Douglas Terry, Mark Painter, David Riggle, and Songnian Zhou made up the > initial BIND project team. > > Doug was working on his PhD and the others were working on their masters. > > > > Paul Mockapetris would know better about Doug's contribution to DNS RFC. > > > > RFC 833 was already written by the time I started working on DNS. > > I worked on BIND and 4.3BSD Unix from 1985 - 1987 at UCB CSRG. > > > > -Kevin > > > > > > > > > > > > Younr message dated: Wed, 09 Jun 2021 09:14:49 PDT > >> Just got pointed at Doug Terry's resume, which includes: > >> > >> "co-designed the Domain Name System (DNS)" > >> > >> Apparently this was while he was a doctoral student at Berkeley.(*) > >> > >> I don't recall hearing of his contribution to the initial protocol > >> design effort. > >> > >> In fact, I'm pretty fuzzy about the process that produced the initial > RFC. > >> > >> Anyone able/willing to comment? > >> > >> tnx. > >> > >> d/ > >> -- > >> Dave Crocker > >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >> bbiw.net > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From bpurvy at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 08:03:47 2021 From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 08:03:47 -0700 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> <73ea817a-fc9b-31be-91bf-55a90af5cf6f@saloits.com> <83C1BDAB-C553-45D4-98D3-C2F456312452@comcast.net> Message-ID: So funny (well, to me anyway) that I was at UIUC in the late 60's / early 70's, and my *sole* contact with PLATO was as a subject in a Psych 100 experiment in my freshman year. They were in a different building from DCL, and I almost never heard anything about them. I don't think they interacted much with the CS department. On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 3:52 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I think there is a book about PLATO and the plasma screen titled "The > Friendly Orange Glow" > > http://friendlyorangeglow.com/ > > v > > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 6:51 AM John Day via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > The touch facility that we did in ?75 wasn?t on the screen but with > > infrared sensors (I think) around the edge of the screen. > > > > Plato was using the plasma screens well before, we did that terminal. We > > just grabbed a few for that project. > > > > John > > > > > On Jun 10, 2021, at 02:58, Brian Carpenter via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > Sure. My (unwritten) question was what flat-screen technology did they > > use? > > > I suppose a plasma display was the only option then. The original touch > > > screens invented at CERN by Stumpe in 1972/3 were based on CRT > displays, > > > but certainly plasma displays were known by then. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Brian Carpenter > > > (via tiny screen & keyboard) > > > > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, 17:56 Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history, < > > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > >> On 6/9/2021 9:14 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > >>> https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes > > >> interesting reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the > first > > >> graphic amber plasma flat screen." > > >> > > >> I thought that the Plato terminal, circa 1964, was the first practical > > >> plasma display. > > >> > > >> The first practical plasma video display was co-invented in 1964 at > > >> the University of Illinois at Urbana?Champaign by Donald Bitzer, H. > > >> Gene Slottow, and graduate student Robert Willson for the PLATO > > >> computer system. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Also, > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> And, even more off-topic: > > >> > > >> In August 2004, a version of PLATO corresponding to the final > > >> release from CDC was resurrected online. This version of PLATO > > >> runs on a free and open-source software emulation of the > original > > >> CDC hardware called Desktop Cyber. ... Desktop Cyber accurately > > >> emulates in software a range of CDC Cyber mainframe models and > > >> many peripherals. > > >> > > >> o Now, I just need a nine-track tape drive to read my old tapes. > > >> > > >> o How much faster is my Raspberry Pi 4 (1.5 GHz clock, 8 GB > memory) > > >> emulating a CDC 6600 (10 MHz clock, 982 KB memory)? > > >> > > >> -tjs > > >> -- > > >> Internet-history mailing list > > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > >> > > > -- > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jun 10 08:48:23 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 11:48:23 -0400 Subject: [ih] How Plato Influenced the Internet Message-ID: FWIW: Since Plato was just brought up, I'll point a vector to some folks. If you read Dear's book, it tends to credit the walled garden' system Plato with a lot of the things the Internet would eventually be known. How much truth there is, I can not say. But there is a lot of good stuff in here and it really did impact a lot of us as we certainly had seen that scheme, when we started to do things later. So ... if you have not yet read it, see if you can get a copy of Brian Dear's *The Friendly Orange Glow: The Untold Story of the PLATO System and the Dawn of Cyberculture* ISBN-10 1101871555 In my own case, Plato was used for some Physics courses and I personally never was one of the 'Plato ga-ga' type folks, although I did take on course using it and thought the graphics were pretty slick. But, I had all the computing power I needed with full ARPANET access between the Computer Center and CMU's EE and CS Depts. But I do have friends that were Physics, Chem E, and Mat Sci that all thought it was amazing and liked it much better than the required FORTRAN course they had to take using TSS on the IBM 360/67. From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 11:47:56 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 14:47:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet References: Message-ID: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Forgot reply-all. > Begin forwarded message: > > From: John Day > Subject: Re: [ih] How Plato Influenced the Internet > Date: June 10, 2021 at 14:46:35 EDT > To: Clem Cole > > Plato had very little if any influence on the ARPANET. I can?t say about the other way. We were the ARPANET node and saw very little of them. We were in different buildings on the engineering campus a couple of blocks from each other, neither of which was the CS building. This is probably a case of people looking at similar problems and coming to similar conclusions, or from the authors point of view, doing the same thing in totally different ways. > > I do remember once when the leader of our group, Pete Alsberg, was teaching an OS class and someone from Plato was taking it and brought up what they were doing for the next major system release. In class, they did a back of the envelope calculation of when the design would hit the wall. That weekend at a party, (Champaign-Urbana isn?t that big) Pete found himself talking to Bitzer and related the story from the class. Bitzer got kind of embarrassed and it turned out they had hit the wall a couple of days before as the class? estimate predicted. ;-) Other than having screens we could use, we didn?t put much stock in their work. > > (The wikipedia page on Plato says it was first used Illiac I. It may be true, but it must not have done much because Illiac I had 40 bit words with 1K main memory on Willams tubes and about 12K on drum. Illiac I ( and II and III) were asynchronous hardware.) > > As Ryoko always said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. > > John > >> On Jun 10, 2021, at 11:48, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: >> >> FWIW: Since Plato was just brought up, I'll point a vector to some folks. >> If you read Dear's book, it tends to credit the walled garden' system >> Plato with a lot of the things the Internet would eventually be known. How >> much truth there is, I can not say. But there is a lot of good stuff in >> here and it really did impact a lot of us as we certainly had seen that >> scheme, when we started to do things later. >> >> So ... if you have not yet read it, see if you can get a copy of Brian >> Dear's *The Friendly Orange Glow: The Untold Story of the PLATO System and >> the Dawn of Cyberculture* ISBN-10 1101871555 >> >> In my own case, Plato was used for some Physics courses and I >> personally never was one of the 'Plato ga-ga' type folks, although I did >> take on course using it and thought the graphics were pretty slick. But, I >> had all the computing power I needed with full ARPANET access between the >> Computer Center and CMU's EE and CS Depts. But I do have friends that were >> Physics, Chem E, and Mat Sci that all thought it was amazing and liked it >> much better than the required FORTRAN course they had to take using TSS on >> the IBM 360/67. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Jun 10 12:29:21 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 12:29:21 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Message-ID: I've had a similar experience as John.? In my time at MIT and BBN through the 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not likely it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was popular back then - in the late 60s onward.?? E.g., I had a student-job to create a graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME students do their designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote Display Station).? In another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland display, circa early 70s.? People at another lab were playing with systems that used light pens.? In the later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that could show wire-frame models of stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their own communities.?? Although they all had interesting technology, there were too few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite computer system.?? So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. At MIT, we somehow managed to get a bunch of Imlacs and they became everyday terminals, with impressive (for the time) graphics capability.? We tried to use these via the ARPANET for graphics, circa 1975 or so.? (Specifically, we tried to get the "Maze War" multi-player game to run over the ARPANET)?? It worked functionally, but the ARPANET game experience was just too slow for the game to be viable.? Network players didn't have a chance. It's hard to say how any of those early graphics influenced later work on the 'net.? I can however attest to the influence on me of that "Maze" game experience and its subsequent influence on the network.? That experience made me very aware of the issue of latency, and the desirability of a network being able to handle different kinds of traffic flows with different needs of bandwidth and latency.?? So I argued strongly for the inclusion of basic mechanisms, for experimentation, into the new version of TCP/IP -- what became the TOS bits in the IP header for version 4.?? The network needed to be able to handle different types of traffic in different ways.? (Sadly, it seems that capability never matured as the network grew; interactive gaming is still problematic today) I'm sure other people had similar experiences with whatever graphics systems were available to them.?? So any such system might have influenced later work in the network arena.?? But I think you'd have to trace from the experience of individuals to find out what effect any particular early system had downstream.?? Just because something existed doesn't mean others knew about it.?? We didn't even have email back then...and the web, zoom, et al were at best science fiction. /Jack Haverty On 6/10/21 11:47 AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > Forgot reply-all. > >> Begin forwarded message: >> >> From: John Day >> Subject: Re: [ih] How Plato Influenced the Internet >> Date: June 10, 2021 at 14:46:35 EDT >> To: Clem Cole >> >> Plato had very little if any influence on the ARPANET. I can?t say about the other way. We were the ARPANET node and saw very little of them. We were in different buildings on the engineering campus a couple of blocks from each other, neither of which was the CS building. This is probably a case of people looking at similar problems and coming to similar conclusions, or from the authors point of view, doing the same thing in totally different ways. >> >> I do remember once when the leader of our group, Pete Alsberg, was teaching an OS class and someone from Plato was taking it and brought up what they were doing for the next major system release. In class, they did a back of the envelope calculation of when the design would hit the wall. That weekend at a party, (Champaign-Urbana isn?t that big) Pete found himself talking to Bitzer and related the story from the class. Bitzer got kind of embarrassed and it turned out they had hit the wall a couple of days before as the class? estimate predicted. ;-) Other than having screens we could use, we didn?t put much stock in their work. >> >> (The wikipedia page on Plato says it was first used Illiac I. It may be true, but it must not have done much because Illiac I had 40 bit words with 1K main memory on Willams tubes and about 12K on drum. Illiac I ( and II and III) were asynchronous hardware.) >> >> As Ryoko always said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. >> >> John >> >>> On Jun 10, 2021, at 11:48, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> FWIW: Since Plato was just brought up, I'll point a vector to some folks. >>> If you read Dear's book, it tends to credit the walled garden' system >>> Plato with a lot of the things the Internet would eventually be known. How >>> much truth there is, I can not say. But there is a lot of good stuff in >>> here and it really did impact a lot of us as we certainly had seen that >>> scheme, when we started to do things later. >>> >>> So ... if you have not yet read it, see if you can get a copy of Brian >>> Dear's *The Friendly Orange Glow: The Untold Story of the PLATO System and >>> the Dawn of Cyberculture* ISBN-10 1101871555 >>> >>> In my own case, Plato was used for some Physics courses and I >>> personally never was one of the 'Plato ga-ga' type folks, although I did >>> take on course using it and thought the graphics were pretty slick. But, I >>> had all the computing power I needed with full ARPANET access between the >>> Computer Center and CMU's EE and CS Depts. But I do have friends that were >>> Physics, Chem E, and Mat Sci that all thought it was amazing and liked it >>> much better than the required FORTRAN course they had to take using TSS on >>> the IBM 360/67. >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jun 10 12:35:59 2021 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 15:35:59 -0400 Subject: [ih] How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 2:46 PM John Day wrote: > Plato had very little if any influence on the ARPANET. I can?t say about > the other way. I would have expected that. I look at the ArpaNet culture as the MIT/CMU/Standford/BBN -- PDP-10 types if you will, which later gave way to UNIX weenies (like me) [Not to knock or ignore what was happening in the Central US BTW] -- i.e. basically the story from 'When Wizards Stay Up Late.' That certainly matched my own experiences at CMU and UCB ib the early/mid 1970s. This is probably a case of people looking at similar problems and coming to > similar conclusions, or from the authors point of view, doing the same > thing in totally different ways. Likely -- great minds run on the same channel and fools think alike. > We were the ARPANET node and saw very little of them. > Interesting. I'm assuming you read the book -- do you think he was fair or not? As I said, I saw Plato in one course at CMU and other than the graphics was not really impressed one way or the other [and frankly the Triple Drip/CMU GDP's have way better graphics - each with a dedicated PDP-11/20]. We had mailing lists and shared resources across the ARPAnet community so the walled garden was of little interest to me personally. I really can not say I learned much from Plato specifically that I would have subconsciously wanted in UNIX, while I *can say *that both my TSS and PDP-10 experiences (inc Assembler/BLISS/SAIL) before I learned UNIX/C had direct influence and I openly admit I took ideas from there [e.g Ted and I wrote fsck after seeing the disk corrector from MTS for Ted and Salvager for TSS for me]. ? From tte at cs.fau.de Thu Jun 10 13:23:31 2021 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 22:23:31 +0200 Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20210610202331.GG12022@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Hah & thanks. History of the network wrt. latency and gaming. Fun topic. Games without a competitive real-time element worked best over early WANs. Such as round based strategy games. We always played in the late 80th/early 90th Xconq between multiple universities interconnected with 64kbps WAN links. That of course was a complete waste of bandwidth given how Xconq is s single game engine with every player just being a remote Xdisplay and hence running the really not bandwidth optimized Xwindows rendering protocol across the WAN. Worked great until more users started to share the 64kbps links. At which point i actually had to figure out how to QoS prioritize TCP port 6000 on the WAN "routers". But that of course was more bandwidth than lantecy QoS. And of course never tried to rely on TOS bits. The real experience of serious low-latency requirements can be happened shortly thereafter, locally, when i had to split up a LAN into two, interconnected by a CPU based router and then the quite competitive doom & quake players complained that some of them now always lost. The ones NOT on the LAN as the game master instance of course. Alas, i can not quite remember the exact forwarding latency across that router hop. Something like 10 msec i think. I ended up having to re wire a few workstations to the opposite LAN to serve latency. Cheers Toerless On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 12:29:21PM -0700, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > I've had a similar experience as John.? In my time at MIT and BBN through > the 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not > likely it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. > > IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was > popular back then - in the late 60s onward.?? E.g., I had a student-job to > create a graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME > students do their designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote > Display Station).? In another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland > display, circa early 70s.? People at another lab were playing with systems > that used light pens.? In the later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that > could show wire-frame models of stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. > > AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their own > communities.?? Although they all had interesting technology, there were too > few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite > computer system.?? So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. > > At MIT, we somehow managed to get a bunch of Imlacs and they became everyday > terminals, with impressive (for the time) graphics capability.? We tried to > use these via the ARPANET for graphics, circa 1975 or so.? (Specifically, we > tried to get the "Maze War" multi-player game to run over the ARPANET)?? It > worked functionally, but the ARPANET game experience was just too slow for > the game to be viable.? Network players didn't have a chance. > > It's hard to say how any of those early graphics influenced later work on > the 'net.? I can however attest to the influence on me of that "Maze" game > experience and its subsequent influence on the network.? That experience > made me very aware of the issue of latency, and the desirability of a > network being able to handle different kinds of traffic flows with different > needs of bandwidth and latency.?? So I argued strongly for the inclusion of > basic mechanisms, for experimentation, into the new version of TCP/IP -- > what became the TOS bits in the IP header for version 4.?? The network > needed to be able to handle different types of traffic in different ways.? > (Sadly, it seems that capability never matured as the network grew; > interactive gaming is still problematic today) > > I'm sure other people had similar experiences with whatever graphics systems > were available to them.?? So any such system might have influenced later > work in the network arena.?? But I think you'd have to trace from the > experience of individuals to find out what effect any particular early > system had downstream.?? Just because something existed doesn't mean others > knew about it.?? We didn't even have email back then...and the web, zoom, et > al were at best science fiction. > > /Jack Haverty > > > On 6/10/21 11:47 AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > Forgot reply-all. > > > > > Begin forwarded message: > > > > > > From: John Day > > > Subject: Re: [ih] How Plato Influenced the Internet > > > Date: June 10, 2021 at 14:46:35 EDT > > > To: Clem Cole > > > > > > Plato had very little if any influence on the ARPANET. I can???t say about the other way. We were the ARPANET node and saw very little of them. We were in different buildings on the engineering campus a couple of blocks from each other, neither of which was the CS building. This is probably a case of people looking at similar problems and coming to similar conclusions, or from the authors point of view, doing the same thing in totally different ways. > > > > > > I do remember once when the leader of our group, Pete Alsberg, was teaching an OS class and someone from Plato was taking it and brought up what they were doing for the next major system release. In class, they did a back of the envelope calculation of when the design would hit the wall. That weekend at a party, (Champaign-Urbana isn???t that big) Pete found himself talking to Bitzer and related the story from the class. Bitzer got kind of embarrassed and it turned out they had hit the wall a couple of days before as the class??? estimate predicted. ;-) Other than having screens we could use, we didn???t put much stock in their work. > > > > > > (The wikipedia page on Plato says it was first used Illiac I. It may be true, but it must not have done much because Illiac I had 40 bit words with 1K main memory on Willams tubes and about 12K on drum. Illiac I ( and II and III) were asynchronous hardware.) > > > > > > As Ryoko always said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it. > > > > > > John > > > > > > > On Jun 10, 2021, at 11:48, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > > > FWIW: Since Plato was just brought up, I'll point a vector to some folks. > > > > If you read Dear's book, it tends to credit the walled garden' system > > > > Plato with a lot of the things the Internet would eventually be known. How > > > > much truth there is, I can not say. But there is a lot of good stuff in > > > > here and it really did impact a lot of us as we certainly had seen that > > > > scheme, when we started to do things later. > > > > > > > > So ... if you have not yet read it, see if you can get a copy of Brian > > > > Dear's *The Friendly Orange Glow: The Untold Story of the PLATO System and > > > > the Dawn of Cyberculture* ISBN-10 1101871555 > > > > > > > > In my own case, Plato was used for some Physics courses and I > > > > personally never was one of the 'Plato ga-ga' type folks, although I did > > > > take on course using it and thought the graphics were pretty slick. But, I > > > > had all the computing power I needed with full ARPANET access between the > > > > Computer Center and CMU's EE and CS Depts. But I do have friends that were > > > > Physics, Chem E, and Mat Sci that all thought it was amazing and liked it > > > > much better than the required FORTRAN course they had to take using TSS on > > > > the IBM 360/67. > > > > -- > > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- --- tte at cs.fau.de From casner at acm.org Thu Jun 10 14:14:44 2021 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 14:14:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > I've had a similar experience as John. In my time at MIT and BBN through the > 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not likely > it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. > > IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was popular > back then - in the late 60s onward. E.g., I had a student-job to create a > graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME students do their > designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote Display Station). In > another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland display, circa early 70s. > People at another lab were playing with systems that used light pens. In the > later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that could show wire-frame models of > stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. > > AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their own > communities. Although they all had interesting technology, there were too > few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite computer > system. So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. That Evans & Sutherland display may be the same one that Danny Cohen used for the flight simulator that incorporated ARPAnet communication between Harvard and BBN. This was definitely a case where displays and ARPAnet were both important, but it falls into your category of demo not mainstream. See the attached two slides from a Google Tech Talk that Danny gave in 2010. -- Steve From casner at acm.org Thu Jun 10 14:22:33 2021 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 14:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Stephen Casner via Internet-history wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > I've had a similar experience as John. In my time at MIT and BBN through the > > 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not likely > > it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. > > > > IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was popular > > back then - in the late 60s onward. E.g., I had a student-job to create a > > graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME students do their > > designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote Display Station). In > > another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland display, circa early 70s. > > People at another lab were playing with systems that used light pens. In the > > later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that could show wire-frame models of > > stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. > > > > AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their own > > communities. Although they all had interesting technology, there were too > > few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite computer > > system. So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. > > That Evans & Sutherland display may be the same one that Danny Cohen > used for the flight simulator that incorporated ARPAnet communication > between Harvard and BBN. This was definitely a case where displays > and ARPAnet were both important, but it falls into your category of > demo not mainstream. See the attached two slides from a Google Tech > Talk that Danny gave in 2010. Oops, the internet-history list does not allow the attachment. See: http://casners.us/flight-sim.pdf -- Steve From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Jun 10 14:41:23 2021 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 17:41:23 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Message-ID: When I was working on the Arpanet in the 1968-71 time frame and at ARPA in the 1971-74 time frame, I visited Bitzer at U of Illinois and also visited the Corning factory in Toledo where the plasma panels were manufactured. In those days there was a big hunger for displays but nothing was quite viable. We had an IMLAC in the Arpa office but didn't get much use out of it. The plasma panel was definitely intriguing, and the Plato system was noteworthy. I don't recall where Bitzer got his financial support, but I don't believe it came from ARPA. That put the Plato project outside of the ARPA community, even though we were fully aware of the technology. At Illinois there was a bit of rivalry between Dan Slotnick and his Illiac IV project and Bitzer with his Plato project. I couldn't tell whether the rivalry was good natured or toxic, and I didn't spend much time worrying about it. It would be quite a few years before we could buy displays that were truly usable. The Grid laptop was noteworthy but a bit expensive. Apollo and Sun came out with workstations and changed the world. And then along came Apple. Lisp machines, from Lisp Machines Inc and also from Symbolics, were very high end products. Similarly, the products from Silicon Graphics and from Evans and Sutherland were also at the high end. Steve On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 5:22 PM Stephen Casner via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Stephen Casner via Internet-history wrote: > > > On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > I've had a similar experience as John. In my time at MIT and BBN > through the > > > 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not > likely > > > it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. > > > > > > IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was > popular > > > back then - in the late 60s onward. E.g., I had a student-job to > create a > > > graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME students > do their > > > designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote Display > Station). In > > > another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland display, circa early > 70s. > > > People at another lab were playing with systems that used light pens. > In the > > > later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that could show wire-frame > models of > > > stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. > > > > > > AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their own > > > communities. Although they all had interesting technology, there > were too > > > few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite > computer > > > system. So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. > > > > That Evans & Sutherland display may be the same one that Danny Cohen > > used for the flight simulator that incorporated ARPAnet communication > > between Harvard and BBN. This was definitely a case where displays > > and ARPAnet were both important, but it falls into your category of > > demo not mainstream. See the attached two slides from a Google Tech > > Talk that Danny gave in 2010. > > Oops, the internet-history list does not allow the attachment. > > See: http://casners.us/flight-sim.pdf > > -- Steve > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jun 10 15:06:21 2021 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 12:06:21 -1000 Subject: [ih] DNS origins? In-Reply-To: References: <537f6cad-27f7-3962-6ddf-334663db7c23@dcrocker.net> <202106091711.159HBYqx072908@Gatekeeper.Dunlap.Org> <2037398356.5475615.1623262649959@mail.yahoo.com> <1d2fa58b-cab3-86ba-629a-320f7ab7e070@3kitty.org> <610666796.5565957.1623273973741@mail.yahoo.com> <5dbd5b7e-da21-468b-de48-1d203436d2e6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: the Intel 8086 GRiD Compass and it's GRiDOS operating system was quite the cat's meow for its day: - a multitasking OS with dynamic memory management - a networked file system that operated on a LAN as well as over the PSTN at 1200 baud to GRiD Central (or to ones LAN Server... yours truly had one of these in at home :-) - an "eStore" capability, where one could/would purchase sw and download it - no moving parts with Bubble Memory storage for more, check out this report covering the Grid Compass panel discussion, which was held March 15, 2006 at the Computer History Museum in Mt View, CA: "*Pioneering the Laptop: Engineering the GRiD Compass*" https://www.sigcis.org/weissberger_grid_full geoff On Wed, Jun 9, 2021 at 4:14 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 10-Jun-21 13:26, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: > > On 10. Jun 2021, at 00:01, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >> no one had laptops yet > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grid_Compass: > > > > Release date April 1982 > > https://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=900 makes interesting > reading. It answers my first question: "...one of the first graphic amber > plasma flat screen." > > Brian > > > > > (I vividly remember seeing one on a trade show, probably 1983, and > thinking ?so this is the way we are going to work?? > > Took till 1988 until I had my first Toshiba laptop. > > Added a portable ink-jet, and I completely dominated the standards > meetings with that combo. > > Modem and "FTP Software??s PC/TCP... > > At the time, the main equipment supporting a standards meeting was a > kitchen-size Xerox copier pipeline? But I digress.) > > > > Gr??e, Carsten > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jun 10 15:21:04 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 18:21:04 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6E293DD4-FA92-4AF8-8E37-DDD7AB9F75E7@comcast.net> The relation wasn?t toxic. But Illinois was big enough there really wasn?t much opportunity to interact. They were doing their thing and were very possessive of their system which wasn?t really relevant to being on the ARPANET. While the Illiac group socialized with other aspects of the university, especially the music school, math, EE, and physics. The Illiac group was embroiled in the student demonstrations against the project which ignored Plato, but was a major distraction for us. As I have noted before, which included our office being firebombed. Luckily radicals at UI were incompetent and it didn?t go off. But it was a distraction. John > On Jun 10, 2021, at 17:41, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > When I was working on the Arpanet in the 1968-71 time frame and at ARPA in > the 1971-74 time frame, I visited Bitzer at U of Illinois and also visited > the Corning factory in Toledo where the plasma panels were manufactured. > In those days there was a big hunger for displays but nothing was quite > viable. We had an IMLAC in the Arpa office but didn't get much use out of > it. > > The plasma panel was definitely intriguing, and the Plato system was > noteworthy. I don't recall where Bitzer got his financial support, but I > don't believe it came from ARPA. That put the Plato project outside of the > ARPA community, even though we were fully aware of the technology. At > Illinois there was a bit of rivalry between Dan Slotnick and his Illiac IV > project and Bitzer with his Plato project. I couldn't tell whether the > rivalry was good natured or toxic, and I didn't spend much time worrying > about it. > > It would be quite a few years before we could buy displays that were truly > usable. The Grid laptop was noteworthy but a bit expensive. Apollo and > Sun came out with workstations and changed the world. And then along came > Apple. Lisp machines, from Lisp Machines Inc and also from Symbolics, were > very high end products. Similarly, the products from Silicon Graphics and > from Evans and Sutherland were also at the high end. > > Steve > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 5:22 PM Stephen Casner via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Stephen Casner via Internet-history wrote: >> >>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>>> I've had a similar experience as John. In my time at MIT and BBN >> through the >>>> 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not >> likely >>>> it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. >>>> >>>> IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was >> popular >>>> back then - in the late 60s onward. E.g., I had a student-job to >> create a >>>> graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME students >> do their >>>> designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote Display >> Station). In >>>> another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland display, circa early >> 70s. >>>> People at another lab were playing with systems that used light pens. >> In the >>>> later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that could show wire-frame >> models of >>>> stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. >>>> >>>> AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their own >>>> communities. Although they all had interesting technology, there >> were too >>>> few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite >> computer >>>> system. So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. >>> >>> That Evans & Sutherland display may be the same one that Danny Cohen >>> used for the flight simulator that incorporated ARPAnet communication >>> between Harvard and BBN. This was definitely a case where displays >>> and ARPAnet were both important, but it falls into your category of >>> demo not mainstream. See the attached two slides from a Google Tech >>> Talk that Danny gave in 2010. >> >> Oops, the internet-history list does not allow the attachment. >> >> See: http://casners.us/flight-sim.pdf >> >> -- Steve >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From bpurvy at gmail.com Thu Jun 10 15:35:19 2021 From: bpurvy at gmail.com (Bob Purvy) Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2021 15:35:19 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: <6E293DD4-FA92-4AF8-8E37-DDD7AB9F75E7@comcast.net> References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> <6E293DD4-FA92-4AF8-8E37-DDD7AB9F75E7@comcast.net> Message-ID: +1 to that. I have a podcast interview for my book coming up, and I do mention some of this, early in the book. The host had heard about PLATO but not the Illiac demonstrations. My (weak) recollection is that the PLATO people were in their own little world, in a different building. On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 3:21 PM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > The relation wasn?t toxic. But Illinois was big enough there really wasn?t > much opportunity to interact. They were doing their thing and were very > possessive of their system which wasn?t really relevant to being on the > ARPANET. While the Illiac group socialized with other aspects of the > university, especially the music school, math, EE, and physics. The Illiac > group was embroiled in the student demonstrations against the project which > ignored Plato, but was a major distraction for us. As I have noted before, > which included our office being firebombed. Luckily radicals at UI were > incompetent and it didn?t go off. But it was a distraction. > > John > > > On Jun 10, 2021, at 17:41, Steve Crocker via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > When I was working on the Arpanet in the 1968-71 time frame and at ARPA > in > > the 1971-74 time frame, I visited Bitzer at U of Illinois and also > visited > > the Corning factory in Toledo where the plasma panels were manufactured. > > In those days there was a big hunger for displays but nothing was quite > > viable. We had an IMLAC in the Arpa office but didn't get much use out > of > > it. > > > > The plasma panel was definitely intriguing, and the Plato system was > > noteworthy. I don't recall where Bitzer got his financial support, but I > > don't believe it came from ARPA. That put the Plato project outside of > the > > ARPA community, even though we were fully aware of the technology. At > > Illinois there was a bit of rivalry between Dan Slotnick and his Illiac > IV > > project and Bitzer with his Plato project. I couldn't tell whether the > > rivalry was good natured or toxic, and I didn't spend much time worrying > > about it. > > > > It would be quite a few years before we could buy displays that were > truly > > usable. The Grid laptop was noteworthy but a bit expensive. Apollo and > > Sun came out with workstations and changed the world. And then along > came > > Apple. Lisp machines, from Lisp Machines Inc and also from Symbolics, > were > > very high end products. Similarly, the products from Silicon Graphics > and > > from Evans and Sutherland were also at the high end. > > > > Steve > > > > On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 5:22 PM Stephen Casner via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Stephen Casner via Internet-history wrote: > >> > >>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >>> > >>>> I've had a similar experience as John. In my time at MIT and BBN > >> through the > >>>> 60s/70s, I don't recall ever hearing anything about Plato, so it's not > >> likely > >>>> it had much influence in our work on ARPANET/Internet. > >>>> > >>>> IIRC, playing around with all sorts of graphics-capable terminals was > >> popular > >>>> back then - in the late 60s onward. E.g., I had a student-job to > >> create a > >>>> graphical mechanical engineering simulation, and help the ME students > >> do their > >>>> designs, all using CTSS and an "ARDS" (Advanced Remote Display > >> Station). In > >>>> another group at MIT, we had an Evans&Sutherland display, circa early > >> 70s. > >>>> People at another lab were playing with systems that used light pens. > >> In the > >>>> later 70s, at BBN, we had a 3D display that could show wire-frame > >> models of > >>>> stuff, and let you rotate and manipulate it. > >>>> > >>>> AFAIK, few if any of these had much obvious influence outside their > own > >>>> communities. Although they all had interesting technology, there > >> were too > >>>> few of them available for use as everyday terminals to your favorite > >> computer > >>>> system. So they were good for demos, but not for mainstream work. > >>> > >>> That Evans & Sutherland display may be the same one that Danny Cohen > >>> used for the flight simulator that incorporated ARPAnet communication > >>> between Harvard and BBN. This was definitely a case where displays > >>> and ARPAnet were both important, but it falls into your category of > >>> demo not mainstream. See the attached two slides from a Google Tech > >>> Talk that Danny gave in 2010. > >> > >> Oops, the internet-history list does not allow the attachment. > >> > >> See: http://casners.us/flight-sim.pdf > >> > >> -- Steve > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From dot at dotat.at Fri Jun 11 11:00:02 2021 From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 19:00:02 +0100 Subject: [ih] network games, was Re: Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: <20210610202331.GG12022@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> <20210610202331.GG12022@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: <703ce29b-c12f-b121-4ced-1399ee2dc84f@dotat.at> Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote: > Hah & thanks. History of the network wrt. latency and gaming. Fun topic. > > Games without a competitive real-time element worked best > over early WANs. Such as round based strategy games. Going off on a tangent, one of the highlights of 2021 for me has been the "50 years of text games" blog / newsletter by Aaron A. Reed. So many great stories about a wonderfully broad variety of people and the games they made! There have been a couple of articles that are particularly relevant to Internet history: https://if50.substack.com/p/1980-mud https://if50.substack.com/p/1990-lambdamoo Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ Northwest Fitzroy, Sole: Variable, 2 to 4. Moderate. Fog patches. Moderate or good, occasionally very poor. From tte at cs.fau.de Fri Jun 11 11:06:42 2021 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2021 20:06:42 +0200 Subject: [ih] network games, was Re: Fwd: How Plato Influenced the Internet In-Reply-To: <703ce29b-c12f-b121-4ced-1399ee2dc84f@dotat.at> References: <77B70F1A-1652-422E-B1AF-766928AC8691@comcast.net> <20210610202331.GG12022@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <703ce29b-c12f-b121-4ced-1399ee2dc84f@dotat.at> Message-ID: <20210611180641.GT12022@faui48e.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Thanks for the pointers. Yes, mud is also a vivid memory. I set up the mud at my university in the late 80th, but within a year or so, we decided to take it down because we had some students getting addicted and faulting on their studies. IMHO, all those social problems that the wider population only started to experience in he 20xx where already explored in research decades earlier. I only remember few research publications about those social aspects back then though (some in the UK but more related to video collaboration than gaming). Cheers Toerless On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 07:00:02PM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: > Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote: > > > Hah & thanks. History of the network wrt. latency and gaming. Fun topic. > > > > Games without a competitive real-time element worked best > > over early WANs. Such as round based strategy games. > > Going off on a tangent, one of the highlights of 2021 for me has been the > "50 years of text games" blog / newsletter by Aaron A. Reed. So many great > stories about a wonderfully broad variety of people and the games they > made! There have been a couple of articles that are particularly relevant > to Internet history: > > https://if50.substack.com/p/1980-mud > > https://if50.substack.com/p/1990-lambdamoo > > Tony. > -- > f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ > Northwest Fitzroy, Sole: Variable, 2 to 4. Moderate. Fog patches. > Moderate or good, occasionally very poor. -- --- tte at cs.fau.de