From karl at cavebear.com Wed Dec 1 12:58:24 2021 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Wed, 1 Dec 2021 12:58:24 -0800 Subject: [ih] Interop historical material? In-Reply-To: References: <621A290C-8D6E-48DB-B6E2-4726F532D1AE@lynch.com> Message-ID: <7e4a751a-b5f9-57d1-f24e-a2b865ffb0ef@cavebear.com> On 11/22/21 6:26 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Speaking of Interop.... > > Has any of the material from the Interops been preserved??? There were > administrative pieces, like lists of vendors, floor maps, titles of > sessions, speakers' presentations, attendee lists, and such as well as > mountains of presentation slides, papers, vendor handouts, and > promotional material. I was a leader of the team that designed and deployed the Interop nets from the outset in the late 1980's.? Many of the early show nets were designed at my house.? My now wife worked at Dan Lynch's company ACE ("Another Cute Employee") trying to manage the herd of cats that was the shownet team. A lot of material from Interop exists.? There is an active body of folks who designed, deployed, and operated the show net over the years. My own website has some ancient materials (https://cavebear.com/archive/interop/) including the handout from the tours we gave of the net infrastructure.? (BTW, the very first of those tours was the one I gave to you and Vint at one of our DC shows.) There was also the Linda Feferman film from an early show - https://youtu.be/SMkKIaHee4c?? I'd sure like to get a better print of that, or better the original, uncut footage. Those of us who worked on the Interop net have masses of materials cached away, much of it online. But some was definitely not preserved - we never talked about our movie nights when we'd take over some comfortable vendor booth at night when the show was closed and watch movies and pass around a lot of single malt - most of which we bought using Dan Lynch's credit card. And more than one of us met our then-to-be spouses while working on the show net. The show had a rule - connect and try to interoperate.? We were not nice to vendors who tried to be islands.? And when we did find a vendor that was doing bad things (whether by intent or accident) we were not slow to cut them off. We had to make things work - this was practical networking at its finest and most stressful.? We had to cover every detail from connectors and splicing to multi-homed BGP to IP multicast to ATM VPI/VCI routing to dragging wire through parking lots and coring buildings. There were several dimensions to the show net.? The most obvious was the topology.? We had 45/8 as our address space that we dragged around from place to place.? Not long after we started we multi-homed that address block, which often severely stressed the route damping of our external connectivity providers as we bounced up and down in the days when we brought up that block in a new location. What was not seen was the evolution from a star configuration to a rather massive rib-and-spine physical topology.? We had to get the basic infrastructure into a convention center fairly quickly before the trucks came onto the floor.? We had to invent a system of pull-down drops with bungie cords to stay out of the way of the trucks.? And within minutes after closing we had to release those drops back to the ceiling to get out of the way of the trucks removing the vendors stuff.? And there was a lot of other network cable infrastructure that went out to areas other than the show floor.? For example, we often had laser scopes on building rooftops to provide links to other locations. We had everything.? In the early shows we had TCP/IP, ISO/OSI, DECnet, and Netware.? We had lots and lots of routers - we had pairs of Cisco's and Wellfleets and I think some Proteon and 3COM routers.? We had lots of media types.? The early shows used yellow hose ethernet but we jumped onto Synoptics and David Systems twisted pair ethernet the moment we first saw it.? We also had FDDI (and we found bugs in the specifications) and ATM and just about everything else, including ethernet-over-barbed wire.? We were also fairly intent on making IP multicast work (and it did.) Rarely seen were the warehouses where we built the intrastructure before the show and did a lot of testing (including full power-off/restore testing.)? We would build the net and pack it onto large trucks for shipping to the convention centers.? I remember us loading 46 large trucks on one occasion.? Dave Bridgham (FTP Software) and I were considering buying a used C130 as a way to move some of our gear, especially when we had a fast shift, such as from Las Vegas to Paris or Tokyo in a week or two. The convention centers were large - it was physically impossible to get around when things went awry.? So we deployed an entirely separate physical network that we called the "spy network".? We used this for several things.? One was to get to terminal servers that attached to the RS232 serial ports of all our our infrastructure devices.? That way we could get control from our NOC.? We also had systems of mirrors mounted on piezo-electric crystal steering devices so that we could switch the fiber optic links of the spy network so that we could drop a packet sniffer anywhere we wanted.? (We had passive splitters on many of the fiber links.) We also used a lot of rather heavy grade fiber cables - we ended up depleting the US military's stockpile of certain many-strand, quick-connect fiber connectors. I developed the first Internet "butt set" as a tool to get out on the floor and begin diagnosing problems within seconds after arrival.? (Parts of that still exist in some of the tools now sold by companies such as Fluke and one of my fellow designers of that went on to form other diagnostic tool companies, such as Air Magnet.) We had a lot of fun doing the show net.? For instance we had very early VoIP - I remember being on a call with NTIA about the yet-to-be formed ICANN and mentioned that I was calling over the net (from the show floor) and hearing some very surprised sounds from people who did not know that such a thing was even possible. And on another occasion I used some early RTP/RTCP based audio-video software from Precept Software - I had a camera+microphone duct-taped onto a hardhat and carried a laptop with a stack of batteries duct-taped on.? I sort of looked like a terrorist-in-training.? I interviewed people on the show floor. My wife called it the "husband cam" because she could see everyone I looked at - and I looked a lot: in those days the vendor booths often had what we referred to as "booth bunnies". The show was a target for attack.? The very first attack was rather mild - Carl Malamud and I were setting up some NCD Xterms and suddenly a foreign desktop appeared on all of them.? Someone was trying to steal username/password pairs via faux login screens. The net at the shows was just a thin layer over the work to get that net deployed.? We had to deal with immature technologies, new implementations, and constraints that were often far from technical.? For instance, we had senior union electricians who figured they could bend, cut, and splice our coax cables - or worse, our fiber optic cables. We learned how to deal with the unions - from peeling off bills from thick wads of twenties, to pointing out that fiber optic cables are pipes for light and perhaps could be better handled by people from the plumbers' unions, to simply bringing along our own, and trusted, union electricians.)? We weren't always within the law - like when we pulled fiber optics through the active railroad tunnels at the Atlanta convention center. We were a smelly bunch - convention centers are not air conditioned while the trucks are going in/out.? And in Las Vegas that meant working in 100F+ heat.? And we would work 24 hours a day for days on end.? We had to mandate sleep and shower periods.?? (But even then we were a smelly bunch - for instance when we got snowed in in DC and trucks started dumping manure for a garden show days before we were able to get out networking gear out.) In addition to the tech a lot of other stuff happened.? For instance I first met a friend by climbing through her car window as we went to blow off steam doing some white water rafting in western Pennsylvania.?? About 30 of us (all wearing Motorola radios that kept squawking) got mugged directly in front of the White House.? (Although the muggers had guns I think our group was better armed - one does not realize how useful to networking a good knife can be.)? We had parties, such as when we rented the Air and Space museum in DC, the roof of the the La Defense arch in Paris, and the Howard Hughes Suite (two floors) at the now gone Desert Inn in Las Vegas. ??? ??? --karl-- From dan at lynch.com Thu Dec 2 14:16:26 2021 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 14:16:26 -0800 Subject: [ih] Interop historical material? In-Reply-To: <7e4a751a-b5f9-57d1-f24e-a2b865ffb0ef@cavebear.com> References: <7e4a751a-b5f9-57d1-f24e-a2b865ffb0ef@cavebear.com> Message-ID: Thanks very much Karl and the gangs. I do remember that my major role was to supply the single malts, either in person or via credit card! Yeah, there was no way anyone could afford to pay for the fabulous crews from all the vendors who made the show network run each 6 months in a new location and eventually in a new country. The industry was forming and we all knew we had to make it happen or go home forever. Bravo to all the guys and gals! Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Dec 1, 2021, at 12:58 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > ?On 11/22/21 6:26 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> Speaking of Interop.... >> >> Has any of the material from the Interops been preserved? There were administrative pieces, like lists of vendors, floor maps, titles of sessions, speakers' presentations, attendee lists, and such as well as mountains of presentation slides, papers, vendor handouts, and promotional material. > > I was a leader of the team that designed and deployed the Interop nets from the outset in the late 1980's. Many of the early show nets were designed at my house. My now wife worked at Dan Lynch's company ACE ("Another Cute Employee") trying to manage the herd of cats that was the shownet team. > > A lot of material from Interop exists. There is an active body of folks who designed, deployed, and operated the show net over the years. > > My own website has some ancient materials (https://cavebear.com/archive/interop/) including the handout from the tours we gave of the net infrastructure. (BTW, the very first of those tours was the one I gave to you and Vint at one of our DC shows.) > > There was also the Linda Feferman film from an early show - https://youtu.be/SMkKIaHee4c I'd sure like to get a better print of that, or better the original, uncut footage. > > Those of us who worked on the Interop net have masses of materials cached away, much of it online. > > But some was definitely not preserved - we never talked about our movie nights when we'd take over some comfortable vendor booth at night when the show was closed and watch movies and pass around a lot of single malt - most of which we bought using Dan Lynch's credit card. > > And more than one of us met our then-to-be spouses while working on the show net. > > The show had a rule - connect and try to interoperate. We were not nice to vendors who tried to be islands. And when we did find a vendor that was doing bad things (whether by intent or accident) we were not slow to cut them off. > > We had to make things work - this was practical networking at its finest and most stressful. We had to cover every detail from connectors and splicing to multi-homed BGP to IP multicast to ATM VPI/VCI routing to dragging wire through parking lots and coring buildings. > > There were several dimensions to the show net. The most obvious was the topology. We had 45/8 as our address space that we dragged around from place to place. Not long after we started we multi-homed that address block, which often severely stressed the route damping of our external connectivity providers as we bounced up and down in the days when we brought up that block in a new location. > > What was not seen was the evolution from a star configuration to a rather massive rib-and-spine physical topology. We had to get the basic infrastructure into a convention center fairly quickly before the trucks came onto the floor. We had to invent a system of pull-down drops with bungie cords to stay out of the way of the trucks. And within minutes after closing we had to release those drops back to the ceiling to get out of the way of the trucks removing the vendors stuff. And there was a lot of other network cable infrastructure that went out to areas other than the show floor. For example, we often had laser scopes on building rooftops to provide links to other locations. > > We had everything. In the early shows we had TCP/IP, ISO/OSI, DECnet, and Netware. We had lots and lots of routers - we had pairs of Cisco's and Wellfleets and I think some Proteon and 3COM routers. We had lots of media types. The early shows used yellow hose ethernet but we jumped onto Synoptics and David Systems twisted pair ethernet the moment we first saw it. We also had FDDI (and we found bugs in the specifications) and ATM and just about everything else, including ethernet-over-barbed wire. We were also fairly intent on making IP multicast work (and it did.) > > Rarely seen were the warehouses where we built the intrastructure before the show and did a lot of testing (including full power-off/restore testing.) We would build the net and pack it onto large trucks for shipping to the convention centers. I remember us loading 46 large trucks on one occasion. Dave Bridgham (FTP Software) and I were considering buying a used C130 as a way to move some of our gear, especially when we had a fast shift, such as from Las Vegas to Paris or Tokyo in a week or two. > > The convention centers were large - it was physically impossible to get around when things went awry. So we deployed an entirely separate physical network that we called the "spy network". We used this for several things. One was to get to terminal servers that attached to the RS232 serial ports of all our our infrastructure devices. That way we could get control from our NOC. We also had systems of mirrors mounted on piezo-electric crystal steering devices so that we could switch the fiber optic links of the spy network so that we could drop a packet sniffer anywhere we wanted. (We had passive splitters on many of the fiber links.) > > We also used a lot of rather heavy grade fiber cables - we ended up depleting the US military's stockpile of certain many-strand, quick-connect fiber connectors. > > I developed the first Internet "butt set" as a tool to get out on the floor and begin diagnosing problems within seconds after arrival. (Parts of that still exist in some of the tools now sold by companies such as Fluke and one of my fellow designers of that went on to form other diagnostic tool companies, such as Air Magnet.) > > We had a lot of fun doing the show net. For instance we had very early VoIP - I remember being on a call with NTIA about the yet-to-be formed ICANN and mentioned that I was calling over the net (from the show floor) and hearing some very surprised sounds from people who did not know that such a thing was even possible. > > And on another occasion I used some early RTP/RTCP based audio-video software from Precept Software - I had a camera+microphone duct-taped onto a hardhat and carried a laptop with a stack of batteries duct-taped on. I sort of looked like a terrorist-in-training. I interviewed people on the show floor. My wife called it the "husband cam" because she could see everyone I looked at - and I looked a lot: in those days the vendor booths often had what we referred to as "booth bunnies". > > The show was a target for attack. The very first attack was rather mild - Carl Malamud and I were setting up some NCD Xterms and suddenly a foreign desktop appeared on all of them. Someone was trying to steal username/password pairs via faux login screens. > > The net at the shows was just a thin layer over the work to get that net deployed. We had to deal with immature technologies, new implementations, and constraints that were often far from technical. For instance, we had senior union electricians who figured they could bend, cut, and splice our coax cables - or worse, our fiber optic cables. We learned how to deal with the unions - from peeling off bills from thick wads of twenties, to pointing out that fiber optic cables are pipes for light and perhaps could be better handled by people from the plumbers' unions, to simply bringing along our own, and trusted, union electricians.) We weren't always within the law - like when we pulled fiber optics through the active railroad tunnels at the Atlanta convention center. > > We were a smelly bunch - convention centers are not air conditioned while the trucks are going in/out. And in Las Vegas that meant working in 100F+ heat. And we would work 24 hours a day for days on end. We had to mandate sleep and shower periods. (But even then we were a smelly bunch - for instance when we got snowed in in DC and trucks started dumping manure for a garden show days before we were able to get out networking gear out.) > > In addition to the tech a lot of other stuff happened. For instance I first met a friend by climbing through her car window as we went to blow off steam doing some white water rafting in western Pennsylvania. About 30 of us (all wearing Motorola radios that kept squawking) got mugged directly in front of the White House. (Although the muggers had guns I think our group was better armed - one does not realize how useful to networking a good knife can be.) We had parties, such as when we rented the Air and Space museum in DC, the roof of the the La Defense arch in Paris, and the Howard Hughes Suite (two floors) at the now gone Desert Inn in Las Vegas. > > --karl-- > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Thu Dec 2 15:07:06 2021 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 15:07:06 -0800 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> References: <20211127233200.907B018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 27, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > On 28. Nov 2021, at 00:32, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >> >> We distinguished between two very different activities which 'routers' >> performed; the handling of user traffic, which we called 'forwarding', and the >> computation of routing data/tables (by routing protocols/algorithms), which >> was often (but not always, IIRC) called 'routing'. (Slightly confusing, I >> know! :-) > > Indeed, but both meanings of ?routing? prevail. > I?ll call them routing1 and routing2, where routing1 is defined as the combination of routing2 and fowarding. > > We?ll use routing1 when describing the overall outcome, as in ?xyz does not route that traffic?, or in ?router?. > > We?ll use routing2 together with forwarding when it comes to how to implement routing1; RIB and FIB are clear examples of distinct concepts relating to routing2 and forwarding. Routing protocols rarely provide forwarding and therefore are routing2. > (A router that uses strict source routing or an SDN setup does not do routing2 at all?) > > The terms control plane and data plane are another attempt to slice this cake; I must admit I don?t know when those gained popularity. > > Gr??e, Carsten > I was curious about the origins of control and data plane myself, so I looked into it a bit. Their use dates back to at least the early 1990s. For example, see the 1991 CCITT (ITU) publication B-ISDN Protocol Reference Model and its Application, Recommendation I.321 . As an example of when it entered the IETF vernacular, see a message from 1994 that was posted to the ATM list in response to a question about RFC 1577. ?gregbo From vint at google.com Thu Dec 2 15:51:09 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 18:51:09 -0500 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: References: <20211127233200.907B018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> Message-ID: consider also SS#7 v On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 6:08 PM Greg Skinner via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > On Nov 27, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > > > > On 28. Nov 2021, at 00:32, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history > wrote: > >> > >> We distinguished between two very different activities which 'routers' > >> performed; the handling of user traffic, which we called 'forwarding', > and the > >> computation of routing data/tables (by routing protocols/algorithms), > which > >> was often (but not always, IIRC) called 'routing'. (Slightly confusing, > I > >> know! :-) > > > > Indeed, but both meanings of ?routing? prevail. > > I?ll call them routing1 and routing2, where routing1 is defined as the > combination of routing2 and fowarding. > > > > We?ll use routing1 when describing the overall outcome, as in ?xyz does > not route that traffic?, or in ?router?. > > > > We?ll use routing2 together with forwarding when it comes to how to > implement routing1; RIB and FIB are clear examples of distinct concepts > relating to routing2 and forwarding. Routing protocols rarely provide > forwarding and therefore are routing2. > > (A router that uses strict source routing or an SDN setup does not do > routing2 at all?) > > > > The terms control plane and data plane are another attempt to slice this > cake; I must admit I don?t know when those gained popularity. > > > > Gr??e, Carsten > > > > I was curious about the origins of control and data plane myself, so I > looked into it a bit. Their use dates back to at least the early 1990s. > For example, see the 1991 CCITT (ITU) publication B-ISDN Protocol Reference > Model and its Application, Recommendation I.321 < > http://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-I.321-199104-I!!PDF-E&type=items>. > As an example of when it entered the IETF vernacular, see a message from > 1994 that was posted to the ATM list < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/atm/MELrqzESZnZZFCZsjpb_ZNRcjPY/> > in response to a question about RFC 1577. > > ?gregbo > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Dec 2 16:53:52 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 19:53:52 -0500 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: References: <20211127233200.907B018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> Message-ID: <3BDFA8C7-80B2-467C-8F5A-738EA67BB964@comcast.net> The phone system has always separated control and ?data? in separate networks. The drawing of planes originates with ISDN I have looking for a good definition for years. > On Dec 2, 2021, at 18:07, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > > > >> On Nov 27, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >> >> On 28. Nov 2021, at 00:32, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> We distinguished between two very different activities which 'routers' >>> performed; the handling of user traffic, which we called 'forwarding', and the >>> computation of routing data/tables (by routing protocols/algorithms), which >>> was often (but not always, IIRC) called 'routing'. (Slightly confusing, I >>> know! :-) >> >> Indeed, but both meanings of ?routing? prevail. >> I?ll call them routing1 and routing2, where routing1 is defined as the combination of routing2 and fowarding. >> >> We?ll use routing1 when describing the overall outcome, as in ?xyz does not route that traffic?, or in ?router?. >> >> We?ll use routing2 together with forwarding when it comes to how to implement routing1; RIB and FIB are clear examples of distinct concepts relating to routing2 and forwarding. Routing protocols rarely provide forwarding and therefore are routing2. >> (A router that uses strict source routing or an SDN setup does not do routing2 at all?) >> >> The terms control plane and data plane are another attempt to slice this cake; I must admit I don?t know when those gained popularity. >> >> Gr??e, Carsten >> > > I was curious about the origins of control and data plane myself, so I looked into it a bit. Their use dates back to at least the early 1990s. For example, see the 1991 CCITT (ITU) publication B-ISDN Protocol Reference Model and its Application, Recommendation I.321 . As an example of when it entered the IETF vernacular, see a message from 1994 that was posted to the ATM list in response to a question about RFC 1577. > > ?gregbo > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Thu Dec 2 17:18:28 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 20:18:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: <3BDFA8C7-80B2-467C-8F5A-738EA67BB964@comcast.net> References: <20211127233200.907B018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> <3BDFA8C7-80B2-467C-8F5A-738EA67BB964@comcast.net> Message-ID: uh, that's not what I remember. Blue boxes and Cap'n Crunch whistles took over the inband audio signalling system until out of band control was introduced. v On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:54 PM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > The phone system has always separated control and ?data? in separate > networks. The drawing of planes originates with ISDN > > I have looking for a good definition for years. > > > On Dec 2, 2021, at 18:07, Greg Skinner via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Nov 27, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: > >> > >> On 28. Nov 2021, at 00:32, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history > wrote: > >>> > >>> We distinguished between two very different activities which 'routers' > >>> performed; the handling of user traffic, which we called 'forwarding', > and the > >>> computation of routing data/tables (by routing protocols/algorithms), > which > >>> was often (but not always, IIRC) called 'routing'. (Slightly > confusing, I > >>> know! :-) > >> > >> Indeed, but both meanings of ?routing? prevail. > >> I?ll call them routing1 and routing2, where routing1 is defined as the > combination of routing2 and fowarding. > >> > >> We?ll use routing1 when describing the overall outcome, as in ?xyz does > not route that traffic?, or in ?router?. > >> > >> We?ll use routing2 together with forwarding when it comes to how to > implement routing1; RIB and FIB are clear examples of distinct concepts > relating to routing2 and forwarding. Routing protocols rarely provide > forwarding and therefore are routing2. > >> (A router that uses strict source routing or an SDN setup does not do > routing2 at all?) > >> > >> The terms control plane and data plane are another attempt to slice > this cake; I must admit I don?t know when those gained popularity. > >> > >> Gr??e, Carsten > >> > > > > I was curious about the origins of control and data plane myself, so I > looked into it a bit. Their use dates back to at least the early 1990s. > For example, see the 1991 CCITT (ITU) publication B-ISDN Protocol Reference > Model and its Application, Recommendation I.321 < > http://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-I.321-199104-I!!PDF-E&type=items>. > As an example of when it entered the IETF vernacular, see a message from > 1994 that was posted to the ATM list < > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/atm/MELrqzESZnZZFCZsjpb_ZNRcjPY/> > in response to a question about RFC 1577. > > > > ?gregbo > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Dec 2 17:21:20 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 20:21:20 -0500 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: References: <20211127233200.907B018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> <3BDFA8C7-80B2-467C-8F5A-738EA67BB964@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2F7587FF-13F2-4A61-B32F-8005D2CF7287@comcast.net> Okay, I stand corrected. > On Dec 2, 2021, at 20:18, Vint Cerf wrote: > > uh, that's not what I remember. Blue boxes and Cap'n Crunch whistles took over the inband audio signalling system until out of band control was introduced. > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:54 PM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: > The phone system has always separated control and ?data? in separate networks. The drawing of planes originates with ISDN > > I have looking for a good definition for years. > > > On Dec 2, 2021, at 18:07, Greg Skinner via Internet-history > wrote: > > > > > > > >> On Nov 27, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Carsten Bormann > wrote: > >> > >> On 28. Nov 2021, at 00:32, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history > wrote: > >>> > >>> We distinguished between two very different activities which 'routers' > >>> performed; the handling of user traffic, which we called 'forwarding', and the > >>> computation of routing data/tables (by routing protocols/algorithms), which > >>> was often (but not always, IIRC) called 'routing'. (Slightly confusing, I > >>> know! :-) > >> > >> Indeed, but both meanings of ?routing? prevail. > >> I?ll call them routing1 and routing2, where routing1 is defined as the combination of routing2 and fowarding. > >> > >> We?ll use routing1 when describing the overall outcome, as in ?xyz does not route that traffic?, or in ?router?. > >> > >> We?ll use routing2 together with forwarding when it comes to how to implement routing1; RIB and FIB are clear examples of distinct concepts relating to routing2 and forwarding. Routing protocols rarely provide forwarding and therefore are routing2. > >> (A router that uses strict source routing or an SDN setup does not do routing2 at all?) > >> > >> The terms control plane and data plane are another attempt to slice this cake; I must admit I don?t know when those gained popularity. > >> > >> Gr??e, Carsten > >> > > > > I was curious about the origins of control and data plane myself, so I looked into it a bit. Their use dates back to at least the early 1990s. For example, see the 1991 CCITT (ITU) publication B-ISDN Protocol Reference Model and its Application, Recommendation I.321 >. As an example of when it entered the IETF vernacular, see a message from 1994 that was posted to the ATM list > in response to a question about RFC 1577. > > > > ?gregbo > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 > > until further notice > > > From johnl at iecc.com Thu Dec 2 17:54:07 2021 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 2 Dec 2021 20:54:07 -0500 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: <3BDFA8C7-80B2-467C-8F5A-738EA67BB964@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20211203015407.7CC0830E23B2@ary.qy> It appears that John Day via Internet-history said: >The phone system has always separated control and ?data? in separate networks. The drawing of planes originates with ISDN Oh, no they didn't. Until the 1970s they sent control signals in-line as multi-frequency tones, after a 2600 Hz alert tone. That's how blue boxes worked. R's, John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Dec 2 18:00:45 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2021 15:00:45 +1300 Subject: [ih] More terminology (Was: multi-protocol routers, bridges) In-Reply-To: References: <20211127233200.907B018C07B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <891318B6-6334-4D22-9B7B-6435F3B2ECDA@tzi.org> <3BDFA8C7-80B2-467C-8F5A-738EA67BB964@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8b093d8b-a627-9998-6a50-6250a2674f73@gmail.com> On 03-Dec-21 14:18, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > uh, that's not what I remember. Blue boxes and Cap'n Crunch whistles took > over the inband audio signalling system until out of band control was > introduced. Not to mention "clicks" generated by a very, very brief hangup (a.k.a., a "flash"). As a grad student, I knew a trick for bypassing long distance tolls from a pay phone if you clicked at exactly the right moment. Sadly, 20 years later it was I who annoyed every grad student at CERN by blocking the same exploit of our old PABX, because it was costing us about 1M Swiss francs a year. By that time (~1990), the phone company (i.e., the Swiss PTT) had enough of a control plane to block unauthorized toll calls for us. Brian > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 2, 2021 at 7:54 PM John Day via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> The phone system has always separated control and ?data? in separate >> networks. The drawing of planes originates with ISDN >> >> I have looking for a good definition for years. >> >>> On Dec 2, 2021, at 18:07, Greg Skinner via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2021, at 6:46 PM, Carsten Bormann wrote: >>>> >>>> On 28. Nov 2021, at 00:32, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history >> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> We distinguished between two very different activities which 'routers' >>>>> performed; the handling of user traffic, which we called 'forwarding', >> and the >>>>> computation of routing data/tables (by routing protocols/algorithms), >> which >>>>> was often (but not always, IIRC) called 'routing'. (Slightly >> confusing, I >>>>> know! :-) >>>> >>>> Indeed, but both meanings of ?routing? prevail. >>>> I?ll call them routing1 and routing2, where routing1 is defined as the >> combination of routing2 and fowarding. >>>> >>>> We?ll use routing1 when describing the overall outcome, as in ?xyz does >> not route that traffic?, or in ?router?. >>>> >>>> We?ll use routing2 together with forwarding when it comes to how to >> implement routing1; RIB and FIB are clear examples of distinct concepts >> relating to routing2 and forwarding. Routing protocols rarely provide >> forwarding and therefore are routing2. >>>> (A router that uses strict source routing or an SDN setup does not do >> routing2 at all?) >>>> >>>> The terms control plane and data plane are another attempt to slice >> this cake; I must admit I don?t know when those gained popularity. >>>> >>>> Gr??e, Carsten >>>> >>> >>> I was curious about the origins of control and data plane myself, so I >> looked into it a bit. Their use dates back to at least the early 1990s. >> For example, see the 1991 CCITT (ITU) publication B-ISDN Protocol Reference >> Model and its Application, Recommendation I.321 < >> http://www.itu.int/rec/dologin_pub.asp?lang=e&id=T-REC-I.321-199104-I!!PDF-E&type=items>. >> As an example of when it entered the IETF vernacular, see a message from >> 1994 that was posted to the ATM list < >> https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/atm/MELrqzESZnZZFCZsjpb_ZNRcjPY/> >> in response to a question about RFC 1577. >>> >>> ?gregbo >>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 2 18:46:31 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 18:46:31 -0800 Subject: [ih] Interop historical material? In-Reply-To: <7e4a751a-b5f9-57d1-f24e-a2b865ffb0ef@cavebear.com> References: <621A290C-8D6E-48DB-B6E2-4726F532D1AE@lynch.com> <7e4a751a-b5f9-57d1-f24e-a2b865ffb0ef@cavebear.com> Message-ID: Very nice, Karl! ? Good stories.? Interop was a crucial part of Internet History. ? Building an Internet involves a lot more than writing RFCs. I found the description of the Interop "spy net" interesting.? I never knew how you guys managed to corral that beast of wires and boxes scattered across a convention hall. That reminded me of a discussion that occurred back in the late 70s timeframe, when TCP V2 was undergoing open heart surgery to recast it as TCP/IP V4.?? The debate centered on whether or not there should be "out of band control" for the various pieces of the Internet, so that debugging problems could be done remotely even when the basic Internet service itself wasn't working for whatever reason. We never got very far on describing the "spy net", and eventually concluded it would just make the Internet mechanisms too complex and slow things down.?? So things like SNMP and ICMP were defined on top of the IP service instead of some separate "spy net" (call it a control plane if you like...), and we hoped it would be OK. Of course today's boxes, at least the consumer-level ones that I have as an end-user, don't have RS232 console ports any more, so the Interop technique wouldn't work now.?? It just dawned on me that I *did* put in a rudimentary independent "control plane" in the equipment running now in my house. ? My internet boxes are plugged into "smart home" outlets, that can be independently controlled through radio channels separate from Wifi (I use Zwave mostly). That doesn't have as much functionality as an RS232 console, but it does provides the basics.? When something's wrong, a simple tap on my phone turns off the Internet boxes and turns them back on. First rule of network troubleshooting -- try rebooting! Jack Haverty PS - speaking of ACE, see attached image; that's been on my desk as landing pad for my coffee mug for close to 40 years. On 12/1/21 12:58 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote: > On 11/22/21 6:26 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> Speaking of Interop.... >> >> Has any of the material from the Interops been preserved? There were >> administrative pieces, like lists of vendors, floor maps, titles of >> sessions, speakers' presentations, attendee lists, and such as well >> as mountains of presentation slides, papers, vendor handouts, and >> promotional material. > > I was a leader of the team that designed and deployed the Interop nets > from the outset in the late 1980's.? Many of the early show nets were > designed at my house.? My now wife worked at Dan Lynch's company ACE > ("Another Cute Employee") trying to manage the herd of cats that was > the shownet team. > > A lot of material from Interop exists.? There is an active body of > folks who designed, deployed, and operated the show net over the years. > > My own website has some ancient materials > (https://cavebear.com/archive/interop/) including the handout from the > tours we gave of the net infrastructure.? (BTW, the very first of > those tours was the one I gave to you and Vint at one of our DC shows.) > > There was also the Linda Feferman film from an early show - > https://youtu.be/SMkKIaHee4c?? I'd sure like to get a better print of > that, or better the original, uncut footage. > > Those of us who worked on the Interop net have masses of materials > cached away, much of it online. > > But some was definitely not preserved - we never talked about our > movie nights when we'd take over some comfortable vendor booth at > night when the show was closed and watch movies and pass around a lot > of single malt - most of which we bought using Dan Lynch's credit card. > > And more than one of us met our then-to-be spouses while working on > the show net. > > The show had a rule - connect and try to interoperate.? We were not > nice to vendors who tried to be islands.? And when we did find a > vendor that was doing bad things (whether by intent or accident) we > were not slow to cut them off. > > We had to make things work - this was practical networking at its > finest and most stressful.? We had to cover every detail from > connectors and splicing to multi-homed BGP to IP multicast to ATM > VPI/VCI routing to dragging wire through parking lots and coring > buildings. > > There were several dimensions to the show net.? The most obvious was > the topology.? We had 45/8 as our address space that we dragged around > from place to place.? Not long after we started we multi-homed that > address block, which often severely stressed the route damping of our > external connectivity providers as we bounced up and down in the days > when we brought up that block in a new location. > > What was not seen was the evolution from a star configuration to a > rather massive rib-and-spine physical topology.? We had to get the > basic infrastructure into a convention center fairly quickly before > the trucks came onto the floor.? We had to invent a system of > pull-down drops with bungie cords to stay out of the way of the > trucks.? And within minutes after closing we had to release those > drops back to the ceiling to get out of the way of the trucks removing > the vendors stuff.? And there was a lot of other network cable > infrastructure that went out to areas other than the show floor.? For > example, we often had laser scopes on building rooftops to provide > links to other locations. > > We had everything.? In the early shows we had TCP/IP, ISO/OSI, DECnet, > and Netware.? We had lots and lots of routers - we had pairs of > Cisco's and Wellfleets and I think some Proteon and 3COM routers.? We > had lots of media types.? The early shows used yellow hose ethernet > but we jumped onto Synoptics and David Systems twisted pair ethernet > the moment we first saw it.? We also had FDDI (and we found bugs in > the specifications) and ATM and just about everything else, including > ethernet-over-barbed wire.? We were also fairly intent on making IP > multicast work (and it did.) > > Rarely seen were the warehouses where we built the intrastructure > before the show and did a lot of testing (including full > power-off/restore testing.)? We would build the net and pack it onto > large trucks for shipping to the convention centers.? I remember us > loading 46 large trucks on one occasion.? Dave Bridgham (FTP Software) > and I were considering buying a used C130 as a way to move some of our > gear, especially when we had a fast shift, such as from Las Vegas to > Paris or Tokyo in a week or two. > > The convention centers were large - it was physically impossible to > get around when things went awry.? So we deployed an entirely separate > physical network that we called the "spy network".? We used this for > several things.? One was to get to terminal servers that attached to > the RS232 serial ports of all our our infrastructure devices.? That > way we could get control from our NOC.? We also had systems of mirrors > mounted on piezo-electric crystal steering devices so that we could > switch the fiber optic links of the spy network so that we could drop > a packet sniffer anywhere we wanted.? (We had passive splitters on > many of the fiber links.) > > We also used a lot of rather heavy grade fiber cables - we ended up > depleting the US military's stockpile of certain many-strand, > quick-connect fiber connectors. > > I developed the first Internet "butt set" as a tool to get out on the > floor and begin diagnosing problems within seconds after arrival.? > (Parts of that still exist in some of the tools now sold by companies > such as Fluke and one of my fellow designers of that went on to form > other diagnostic tool companies, such as Air Magnet.) > > We had a lot of fun doing the show net.? For instance we had very > early VoIP - I remember being on a call with NTIA about the yet-to-be > formed ICANN and mentioned that I was calling over the net (from the > show floor) and hearing some very surprised sounds from people who did > not know that such a thing was even possible. > > And on another occasion I used some early RTP/RTCP based audio-video > software from Precept Software - I had a camera+microphone duct-taped > onto a hardhat and carried a laptop with a stack of batteries > duct-taped on.? I sort of looked like a terrorist-in-training.? I > interviewed people on the show floor. My wife called it the "husband > cam" because she could see everyone I looked at - and I looked a lot: > in those days the vendor booths often had what we referred to as > "booth bunnies". > > The show was a target for attack.? The very first attack was rather > mild - Carl Malamud and I were setting up some NCD Xterms and suddenly > a foreign desktop appeared on all of them.? Someone was trying to > steal username/password pairs via faux login screens. > > The net at the shows was just a thin layer over the work to get that > net deployed.? We had to deal with immature technologies, new > implementations, and constraints that were often far from technical.? > For instance, we had senior union electricians who figured they could > bend, cut, and splice our coax cables - or worse, our fiber optic > cables. We learned how to deal with the unions - from peeling off > bills from thick wads of twenties, to pointing out that fiber optic > cables are pipes for light and perhaps could be better handled by > people from the plumbers' unions, to simply bringing along our own, > and trusted, union electricians.)? We weren't always within the law - > like when we pulled fiber optics through the active railroad tunnels > at the Atlanta convention center. > > We were a smelly bunch - convention centers are not air conditioned > while the trucks are going in/out.? And in Las Vegas that meant > working in 100F+ heat.? And we would work 24 hours a day for days on > end.? We had to mandate sleep and shower periods.?? (But even then we > were a smelly bunch - for instance when we got snowed in in DC and > trucks started dumping manure for a garden show days before we were > able to get out networking gear out.) > > In addition to the tech a lot of other stuff happened.? For instance I > first met a friend by climbing through her car window as we went to > blow off steam doing some white water rafting in western > Pennsylvania.?? About 30 of us (all wearing Motorola radios that kept > squawking) got mugged directly in front of the White House.? (Although > the muggers had guns I think our group was better armed - one does not > realize how useful to networking a good knife can be.)? We had > parties, such as when we rented the Air and Space museum in DC, the > roof of the the La Defense arch in Paris, and the Howard Hughes Suite > (two floors) at the now gone Desert Inn in Las Vegas. > > ??? ??? --karl-- > From casner at acm.org Thu Dec 2 20:51:20 2021 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Thu, 2 Dec 2021 20:51:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] Interop historical material? In-Reply-To: References: <621A290C-8D6E-48DB-B6E2-4726F532D1AE@lynch.com> <7e4a751a-b5f9-57d1-f24e-a2b865ffb0ef@cavebear.com> Message-ID: Jack, Sorry, the internet-history mailer prunes images. -- Steve On Thu, 2 Dec 2021, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Very nice, Karl! Good stories. Interop was a crucial part of Internet > History. Building an Internet involves a lot more than writing RFCs. > > I found the description of the Interop "spy net" interesting. I never knew > how you guys managed to corral that beast of wires and boxes scattered across > a convention hall. > > That reminded me of a discussion that occurred back in the late 70s timeframe, > when TCP V2 was undergoing open heart surgery to recast it as TCP/IP V4. The > debate centered on whether or not there should be "out of band control" for > the various pieces of the Internet, so that debugging problems could be done > remotely even when the basic Internet service itself wasn't working for > whatever reason. > > We never got very far on describing the "spy net", and eventually concluded it > would just make the Internet mechanisms too complex and slow things down. So > things like SNMP and ICMP were defined on top of the IP service instead of > some separate "spy net" (call it a control plane if you like...), and we hoped > it would be OK. > > Of course today's boxes, at least the consumer-level ones that I have as an > end-user, don't have RS232 console ports any more, so the Interop technique > wouldn't work now. It just dawned on me that I *did* put in a rudimentary > independent "control plane" in the equipment running now in my house. My > internet boxes are plugged into "smart home" outlets, that can be > independently controlled through radio channels separate from Wifi (I use > Zwave mostly). > > That doesn't have as much functionality as an RS232 console, but it does > provides the basics. When something's wrong, a simple tap on my phone turns > off the Internet boxes and turns them back on. > > First rule of network troubleshooting -- try rebooting! > > Jack Haverty > > PS - speaking of ACE, see attached image; that's been on my desk as landing > pad for my coffee mug for close to 40 years. > > > On 12/1/21 12:58 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote: > > On 11/22/21 6:26 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > Speaking of Interop.... > > > > > > Has any of the material from the Interops been preserved? There were > > > administrative pieces, like lists of vendors, floor maps, titles of > > > sessions, speakers' presentations, attendee lists, and such as well as > > > mountains of presentation slides, papers, vendor handouts, and promotional > > > material. > > > > I was a leader of the team that designed and deployed the Interop nets from > > the outset in the late 1980's. Many of the early show nets were designed at > > my house. My now wife worked at Dan Lynch's company ACE ("Another Cute > > Employee") trying to manage the herd of cats that was the shownet team. > > > > A lot of material from Interop exists. There is an active body of folks who > > designed, deployed, and operated the show net over the years. > > > > My own website has some ancient materials > > (https://cavebear.com/archive/interop/) including the handout from the tours > > we gave of the net infrastructure. (BTW, the very first of those tours was > > the one I gave to you and Vint at one of our DC shows.) > > > > There was also the Linda Feferman film from an early show - > > https://youtu.be/SMkKIaHee4c I'd sure like to get a better print of that, > > or better the original, uncut footage. > > > > Those of us who worked on the Interop net have masses of materials cached > > away, much of it online. > > > > But some was definitely not preserved - we never talked about our movie > > nights when we'd take over some comfortable vendor booth at night when the > > show was closed and watch movies and pass around a lot of single malt - most > > of which we bought using Dan Lynch's credit card. > > > > And more than one of us met our then-to-be spouses while working on the show > > net. > > > > The show had a rule - connect and try to interoperate. We were not nice to > > vendors who tried to be islands. And when we did find a vendor that was > > doing bad things (whether by intent or accident) we were not slow to cut > > them off. > > > > We had to make things work - this was practical networking at its finest and > > most stressful. We had to cover every detail from connectors and splicing > > to multi-homed BGP to IP multicast to ATM VPI/VCI routing to dragging wire > > through parking lots and coring buildings. > > > > There were several dimensions to the show net. The most obvious was the > > topology. We had 45/8 as our address space that we dragged around from > > place to place. Not long after we started we multi-homed that address > > block, which often severely stressed the route damping of our external > > connectivity providers as we bounced up and down in the days when we brought > > up that block in a new location. > > > > What was not seen was the evolution from a star configuration to a rather > > massive rib-and-spine physical topology. We had to get the basic > > infrastructure into a convention center fairly quickly before the trucks > > came onto the floor. We had to invent a system of pull-down drops with > > bungie cords to stay out of the way of the trucks. And within minutes after > > closing we had to release those drops back to the ceiling to get out of the > > way of the trucks removing the vendors stuff. And there was a lot of other > > network cable infrastructure that went out to areas other than the show > > floor. For example, we often had laser scopes on building rooftops to > > provide links to other locations. > > > > We had everything. In the early shows we had TCP/IP, ISO/OSI, DECnet, and > > Netware. We had lots and lots of routers - we had pairs of Cisco's and > > Wellfleets and I think some Proteon and 3COM routers. We had lots of media > > types. The early shows used yellow hose ethernet but we jumped onto > > Synoptics and David Systems twisted pair ethernet the moment we first saw > > it. We also had FDDI (and we found bugs in the specifications) and ATM and > > just about everything else, including ethernet-over-barbed wire. We were > > also fairly intent on making IP multicast work (and it did.) > > > > Rarely seen were the warehouses where we built the intrastructure before the > > show and did a lot of testing (including full power-off/restore testing.) > > We would build the net and pack it onto large trucks for shipping to the > > convention centers. I remember us loading 46 large trucks on one occasion. > > Dave Bridgham (FTP Software) and I were considering buying a used C130 as a > > way to move some of our gear, especially when we had a fast shift, such as > > from Las Vegas to Paris or Tokyo in a week or two. > > > > The convention centers were large - it was physically impossible to get > > around when things went awry. So we deployed an entirely separate physical > > network that we called the "spy network". We used this for several things. > > One was to get to terminal servers that attached to the RS232 serial ports > > of all our our infrastructure devices. That way we could get control from > > our NOC. We also had systems of mirrors mounted on piezo-electric crystal > > steering devices so that we could switch the fiber optic links of the spy > > network so that we could drop a packet sniffer anywhere we wanted. (We had > > passive splitters on many of the fiber links.) > > > > We also used a lot of rather heavy grade fiber cables - we ended up > > depleting the US military's stockpile of certain many-strand, quick-connect > > fiber connectors. > > > > I developed the first Internet "butt set" as a tool to get out on the floor > > and begin diagnosing problems within seconds after arrival. (Parts of that > > still exist in some of the tools now sold by companies such as Fluke and one > > of my fellow designers of that went on to form other diagnostic tool > > companies, such as Air Magnet.) > > > > We had a lot of fun doing the show net. For instance we had very early VoIP > > - I remember being on a call with NTIA about the yet-to-be formed ICANN and > > mentioned that I was calling over the net (from the show floor) and hearing > > some very surprised sounds from people who did not know that such a thing > > was even possible. > > > > And on another occasion I used some early RTP/RTCP based audio-video > > software from Precept Software - I had a camera+microphone duct-taped onto a > > hardhat and carried a laptop with a stack of batteries duct-taped on. I > > sort of looked like a terrorist-in-training. I interviewed people on the > > show floor. My wife called it the "husband cam" because she could see > > everyone I looked at - and I looked a lot: in those days the vendor booths > > often had what we referred to as "booth bunnies". > > > > The show was a target for attack. The very first attack was rather mild - > > Carl Malamud and I were setting up some NCD Xterms and suddenly a foreign > > desktop appeared on all of them. Someone was trying to steal > > username/password pairs via faux login screens. > > > > The net at the shows was just a thin layer over the work to get that net > > deployed. We had to deal with immature technologies, new implementations, > > and constraints that were often far from technical. For instance, we had > > senior union electricians who figured they could bend, cut, and splice our > > coax cables - or worse, our fiber optic cables. We learned how to deal with > > the unions - from peeling off bills from thick wads of twenties, to pointing > > out that fiber optic cables are pipes for light and perhaps could be better > > handled by people from the plumbers' unions, to simply bringing along our > > own, and trusted, union electricians.) We weren't always within the law - > > like when we pulled fiber optics through the active railroad tunnels at the > > Atlanta convention center. > > > > We were a smelly bunch - convention centers are not air conditioned while > > the trucks are going in/out. And in Las Vegas that meant working in 100F+ > > heat. And we would work 24 hours a day for days on end. We had to mandate > > sleep and shower periods. (But even then we were a smelly bunch - for > > instance when we got snowed in in DC and trucks started dumping manure for a > > garden show days before we were able to get out networking gear out.) > > > > In addition to the tech a lot of other stuff happened. For instance I first > > met a friend by climbing through her car window as we went to blow off steam > > doing some white water rafting in western Pennsylvania. About 30 of us > > (all wearing Motorola radios that kept squawking) got mugged directly in > > front of the White House. (Although the muggers had guns I think our group > > was better armed - one does not realize how useful to networking a good > > knife can be.) We had parties, such as when we rented the Air and Space > > museum in DC, the roof of the the La Defense arch in Paris, and the Howard > > Hughes Suite (two floors) at the now gone Desert Inn in Las Vegas. > > > > --karl-- > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > From joly at punkcast.com Tue Dec 14 06:40:38 2021 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Tue, 14 Dec 2021 09:40:38 -0500 Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?WEBCAST_TODAY=3A_2021_Internet_Hall_of_Fame_Induc?= =?utf-8?q?tion_Ceremony_/_C=C3=A9r=C3=A9monie_d=E2=80=99Introducti?= =?utf-8?q?on_/_Ceremonia_de_Inducci=C3=B3n?= Message-ID: This is underway. There was a hiccup on the French stream at the start but it's good now. Congrats to all inductees. [image: isoc.live] On *Tuesday 14 December 2021* at *14:00-16:00 UTC* the *2021 Internet Hall of Fame ceremony * will honor 21 new inductees who have played an extraordinary role in the conceptualization, building, and development of the global Internet. The *2021 inductees *are the sixth class to be honored for their work pioneering the Internet?s development and growth throughout the world. They've helped the Internet evolve from a research project into a resource that enriches people?s lives everywhere, and a force for good in society. (*ENGLISH) LIVESTREAM http://livestream.com/internetsociety/ihof2021 * Le *mardi 14 d?cembre 2021* ? *14h00-16h00 UTC*, la *c?r?monie du Internet Hall of Fame 2021 * honorera 21 nouveaux intronis?s qui ont jou? un r?le extraordinaire dans la conceptualisation, la construction et le d?veloppement de l'Internet mondial. Les *laur?ats de 2021 * sont la sixi?me promotion ? ?tre honor?e pour leur travail de pionnier du d?veloppement et de la croissance d'Internet dans le monde. Ils ont aid? Internet ? ?voluer d'un projet de recherche vers une ressource qui enrichit la vie des gens partout dans le monde et une force pour le bien dans la soci?t?. *(FRAN?AIS) LIVESTREAM http://livestream.com/internetsociety2/ihof2021 * El *martes 14 de diciembre de 2021* a las *14:00-16:00 UTC* la *ceremonia del Internet Hall of Fame de 2021 * honrar? a 21 nuevos miembros que han desempe?ado un papel extraordinario en la conceptualizaci?n, construcci?n y desarrollo de Internet global. Los *nuevos miembros de 2021 * son la sexta clase en ser honrada por su trabajo pionero en el desarrollo y crecimiento de Internet en todo el mundo. Han ayudado a Internet a evolucionar de un proyecto de investigaci?n a un recurso que enriquece la vida de las personas en todas partes y una fuerza para el bien en la sociedad. *(ESPA?OL) LIVESTREAM http://livestream.com/internetsociety3/ihof2021 * *PARTICIPATE VIA ZOOM https://bit.ly/3E6kaj7 * (EN/FR/ES) (EN Closed Captions) *REAL TIME TEXT* (see* ISOC.LIVE *) (EN) *TWITTER #IHOF2021 @Internet_HOF @Internet Society* *SIMULCASTS* *https://www.twitter.com/ISOC_Live/ * *https://www.twitch.tv/isoclive * *https://www.facebook.com/InternetSociety/ * *https://www.facebook.com/liveisoc/ * *ARCHIVE* *https://archive.org/details/ihof2021 * *Permalink* https://isoc.live/14878/ - -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - From geoff at iconia.com Sat Dec 18 12:49:53 2021 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 10:49:53 -1000 Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?Some_of_the_people_who_built_the_internet_think_i?= =?utf-8?q?t=E2=80=99s_time_for_a_reboot=E2=80=94starting_with_soci?= =?utf-8?q?al_media?= Message-ID: *Members of the tech elite are banding together to bring the Web back to its idealist origins. They call their vision ?Web3.?* *Jack Dorsey and the Unlikely Revolutionaries Who Want to Reboot the Internet* The internet hasn?t turned out the way it was supposed to. In its earliest incarnation, before some Wall Street Journal readers were born and the rest had fewer automatically renewing digital subscriptions, it was supposed to be distributed, user-controlled and, in a word, democratic. Then came Big Tech and the attendant centralization, windfall profits, culture wars, misinformation campaigns, Congressional hearings, EU rulings, antitrust battles and techno-nationalism that have characterized the past decade. What if there was another way? What if, to take but one example, users of social networks collectively owned them, or at least could vote on how they were run and what kind of speech they allowed? And what if similar questions could be asked of just about any tech company whose primary product is software and services?whether financial, cloud computing, or even entertainment-related? These are the questions investors, engineers and more than a few starry-eyed tech dreamers are asking themselves?among them former Twitter Chief Executive Jack Dorsey, whose interest in these questions helps explain his sudden departure from Twitter. The answers are taking the form of services and apps that are the first outlines of what their creators hope will someday eat the internet completely: a distributed, democratically ruled ?Web 3.0? or ?Web3? that will rise like a phoenix of 1990s-era Web 1.0-idealism from out of the ashes of the corporation-controlled Web 2.0 that all of us currently inhabit. Here?s the basic idea: New technologies like blockchain present the opportunity to loosen the centralized stranglehold that companies and governments have over everything from internet platforms to intellectual property to the creation and distribution of money. These technologies operate by spreading responsibility or ownership among a group of users, who, for example, use their computing power to electronically fabricate?or ?mine??cryptocurrency, or record transactions for digital art. These technologies represent an evolution of cryptocurrency beyond bitcoin?which some in crypto communities now deride as mere ?digital gold.? In addition to monetary value, the ?tokens? that make up these systems are each also encoded with information that has some other use, whether it?s membership in a club, the right to vote on how a company conducts itself, or even just data. The blockchains that underlie all this are just ledgers of information stored on many different computers at once. This lets any given blockchain be resistant to control by a government or corporation, and lets people exchange tokens on that blockchain securely and transparently. This future, a second chance to use technology to upend traditional power structures, is being trumpeted by silver-tongued hype-people of every stripe, from venture capitalists to armchair oracles on social media. Others see the entire enterprise as worse than a waste of time. They view bitcoin as a currency with an outsize (and, many argue, completely unnecessary) energy and carbon footprint . And they see crypto broadly as a classic, doomed to fail techno-solutionism (the belief that technology can solve any problem) Ponzi scheme pushed by latter-day medicine-show hucksters eager to exit their investments in unregulated securities before the market collapses or the Securities and Exchange Commission gets around to regulating them. Mr. Dorsey, no quack, is clearly in the believers? camp?and is, indeed, one of its most prominent members. In July he told investors bitcoin would be a big part of Twitter?s future , and in August he tweeted that it would unite the world. His departure from Twitter reflects the allure that Web3 has for many of those in the tech elite. Mr. Dorsey is now full-time at Block?the new name he gave to Square, his digital payments company, where he is enthusiastically championing cryptocurrency. Block?the name was inspired partly by the blockchain ?owns Cash App, which allows users to buy and send bitcoin. It also created a patent alliance to share crypto-related intellectual property and funds Spiral, an independent team of open-source bitcoin technology developers whose most recent promo video includes a muppet version of Mr. Dorsey answering the question ?When did you know something was wrong with our financial system?? Other famed tech seers are excited about Web3, too. In June 2021, Andreessen Horowitz, the venture-capital firm co-founded by Marc Andreessen, announced a $2.2 billion fund?its third?to invest in blockchain and crypto-related startups. Globally, investment in blockchain startups in 2021 has shattered all previous records, topping $15 billion so far this year, a 384% increase from total investment in all of 2020, according to CB Insights . Almost every company with ?Web3? or ?blockchain? in its pitch deck describes its mission as a user-centered quest to empower?and just as often, enrich?its users, making them owners and investors as much as customers. DeSo?which, confusingly, is simultaneously a not-for-profit foundation , a blockchain and a cryptocurrency token, but explicitly not a traditional for-profit corporation?is in many ways typical of the form. The idea behind DeSo is that everyone should be able to create their own social media service, but also that they could be interconnected in ways that, say, Facebook and Twitter would never be?including shared accounts and other shared data. ?The thesis behind DeSo is that if you can mix money and social, you can create new ways for creators to monetize,? says Nader Al-Naji, founder and head of the DeSo foundation. ?Instead of creators monetizing from ads, they can monetize from DeSo coins.? DeSo has created a new cryptocurrency (named DeSo) that, for example, could be used to ?tip? other users for their posts, replacing likes with actual money?or at least DeSo tokens that can be traded for dollars on the usual cryptocurrency exchanges. Like other next-generation cryptocurrencies, inspired by Ethereum, these tokens also can store the data that actually makes up a social network, such as the text of posts (one of Ethereum?s inventors, Vitalik Buterin, was involved with bitcoin early on and in 2013 proposed the Ethereum protocol in part because he wanted to create a world in which no single company could control digital assets). This dual function illustrates the inspired weirdness that is Web3: If money can become code, then money can be way more than a means of exchange; it can also do anything that other software can do. This core insight, a sort of E = mc? equivalence between money and software, is why true believers in Web3 think it could have such a huge impact. Suddenly every activity humans engage in, from buying and selling a house to liking a post on social media, can be made part of a token-based financial system of a scale and complexity that makes today?s look like an antique. Paul Meed, CEO of Moonbounce, one of the startups building an app with DeSo, thinks that using crypto to create new kinds of exchange between creators and their fans on social media will ultimately work, but that it?s still early days for the idea and technology. Making every interaction between friends on a social network into a monetary transaction still feels strange for most people, and he sees a great deal of pushback from young people and fans of creators whenever the idea comes up. ?I have a friend with a couple million subscribers, and he made one test video on YouTube where talked about NFTs, and it was his most downvoted video of all time,? he adds. Rather than funding DeSo in the traditional manner?by creating a startup and asking the wealthy mandarins of venture capital to part with money in exchange for partial ownership?DeSo instead sold early investors, including Andreessen Horowitz, some of its crypto tokens. Any social media service or app built atop the DeSo blockchain?there are more than 200 of them so far , all of them tiny?must use the DeSo token. The more people and groups build, the more valuable the DeSo token could become. That?s the company?s business model, rather than charging licensing fees or selling advertising. Analogies fail in corporate arrangements as novel as these, which is one reason blockchain startups remain obscure to most investors. Critics claim such obfuscation is deliberate, and is as much about hiding suspect financial and technical engineering as it is a consequence of any supposed innovation in business models. ?The current blockchains are like woefully underpowered computers that can only do a very, very small amount of transactions, and the things they can do are shockingly limited,? says Stephen Diehl, a programmer in London whose frequent essays about the pitfalls of blockchain technology and Web3 have made him one of Web3?s most visible and cogent critics. Even many of the longer-standing attempts to refashion the internet into Web3 are still too inchoate to tell if they?ll ever amount to anything. Before Mr. Dorsey?s obsession with crypto reached its current apotheosis, he announced in 2019 a project begun by Twitter, called Bluesky, to ?develop an open and decentralized standard for social media.? The goal was to make Twitter or some new service into a flexible and easily accessed repository for things known as tweets, which people could sort and view in a variety of new apps built by outside companies. Bluesky?which is to be independent of Twitter, though it currently has no partners other than Twitter?would be more like a service for developers, a role like that of Amazon Web Services. In this way it would be different than a consumer-facing company with the implicit responsibility for everything that happens on it and the ability to ban current presidents, as Twitter did on Jan. 8 to then-president Donald Trump . Bluesky was spearheaded by Twitter?s current CEO , Parag Agrawal, but appears to have made little progress since it was announced. Twitter is hiring for BlueSky and remains committed to the project in the long term, said a Twitter spokeswoman. Blockchain could be integral to how the project is made real, she said. Twitter?s halting attempts to reinvent itself, and its co-founder?s abandonment of it in search of new ways to reinvent the internet with blockchain at Block, illustrate the promise and pitfalls that drive much of the interest in this technology. ?Everybody sees the problems with the malign influence of social media these days, and Web3 has become the messiah technology that?s going to fix all these things,? says Mr. Diehl. Grand promises notwithstanding, it?s not yet clear whether Web3 and its supporting technologies will be soon-to-be-forgotten vaporware, or the next world-wide web. In the future everyone might be able to mint a new crypto ?coin? at will, whether they?re using it to raise capital for a business, monetize the popularity of social-media creators, or collect money for their school?s PTA. Or it?s possible regulators, who this month called crypto startup CEOs to appear before Congress, will decide that the downside of companies issuing what can look like securities outweigh the opportunities for new kinds of financial and technical engineering they might enable. Whatever happens in the coming years, the torrent of money and interest flowing into Web3 companies and projects, and the mainstreaming of blockchain technologies by Block and its competitors , are a measure of just how dissatisfied even many of those who built the current internet have become with it?not to mention how much they think they can profit from solving the very problems they created. Write to Christopher Mims at christopher.mims at wsj.com Appeared in the December 18, 2021, print edition as 'The Unlikely Revolutionaries.' https://www.wsj.com/articles/jack-dorsey-and-the-unlikely-revolutionaries-who-want-to-reboot-the-internet-11639803654 -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jmamodio at gmail.com Sat Dec 18 16:11:49 2021 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2021 18:11:49 -0600 Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?Some_of_the_people_who_built_the_internet_think_i?= =?utf-8?q?t=E2=80=99s_time_for_a_reboot=E2=80=94starting_with_social_medi?= =?utf-8?q?a?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2B3353D8-46E9-4DA4-8182-EC9B3A24AC1E@gmail.com> Can you reboot human nature? -Jorge > On Dec 18, 2021, at 2:50 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > > ?*Members of the tech elite are banding together to bring the Web back to > its idealist origins. They call their vision ?Web3.?* > > *Jack Dorsey and the Unlikely Revolutionaries Who Want to Reboot the > Internet* > > The internet hasn?t turned out the way it was supposed to. > > In its earliest incarnation, before some Wall Street Journal readers were > born and the rest had fewer automatically renewing digital subscriptions, > it was supposed to be distributed, user-controlled and, in a word, > democratic. > > Then came Big Tech and the attendant centralization, windfall profits, > culture wars, misinformation campaigns, Congressional hearings, EU rulings, > antitrust battles and techno-nationalism that have characterized the past > decade. > > What if there was another way? > > What if, to take but one example, users of social networks collectively > owned them, or at least could vote on how they were run and what kind of > speech they allowed? And what if similar questions could be asked of just > about any tech company whose primary product is software and > services?whether financial, cloud computing, or even entertainment-related? > > These are the questions investors, engineers and more than a few > starry-eyed tech dreamers are asking themselves?among them former Twitter > Chief Executive Jack Dorsey, whose interest in these questions helps > explain his sudden departure from Twitter. > > The answers are taking the form of services and apps that are the first > outlines of what their creators hope will someday eat the internet > completely: a distributed, democratically ruled ?Web 3.0? or ?Web3? that > will rise like a phoenix of 1990s-era Web 1.0-idealism from out of the > ashes of the corporation-controlled Web 2.0 that all of us currently > inhabit. > > Here?s the basic idea: New technologies like blockchain present the > opportunity to loosen the centralized stranglehold that companies and > governments have over everything from internet platforms to intellectual > property to the creation and distribution of money. These technologies > operate by spreading responsibility or ownership among a group of users, > who, for example, use their computing power to electronically fabricate?or > ?mine??cryptocurrency, or record transactions for digital art. > > These technologies represent an evolution of cryptocurrency beyond > bitcoin?which some in crypto communities now deride as mere ?digital gold.? > In addition to monetary value, the ?tokens? that make up these systems are > each also encoded with information that has some other use, whether it?s > membership in a club, the right to vote on how a company conducts itself, > or even just data. > > The blockchains that underlie all this are just ledgers of information > stored on many different computers at once. This lets any given blockchain > be resistant to control by a government or corporation, and lets people > exchange tokens on that blockchain securely and transparently. > > This future, a second chance to use technology to upend traditional power > structures, is being trumpeted by silver-tongued hype-people of every > stripe, from venture capitalists to armchair oracles on social media. > > Others see the entire enterprise as worse than a waste of time. They view > bitcoin as a currency with an outsize (and, many argue, completely > unnecessary) energy and carbon footprint > . > And they see crypto broadly as a classic, doomed to fail techno-solutionism > > (the > belief that technology can solve any problem) Ponzi scheme pushed by > latter-day medicine-show hucksters eager to exit their investments in > unregulated securities before the market collapses or the Securities and > Exchange Commission gets around to regulating them. > > Mr. Dorsey, no quack, is clearly in the believers? camp?and is, indeed, one > of its most prominent members. In July he told investors bitcoin would be a big > part of Twitter?s future > , > and in August he tweeted > that it would unite > the world. > > His departure from Twitter reflects the allure that Web3 has for many of > those in the tech elite. Mr. Dorsey is now full-time at Block?the new name > he gave to Square, his digital payments company, where he is > enthusiastically championing cryptocurrency. > > Block?the name was inspired partly by the blockchain > ?owns Cash App, > which allows users to buy and send bitcoin. It also created a patent > alliance to share crypto-related intellectual property and funds Spiral, an > independent team of open-source bitcoin technology developers whose most > recent promo video includes a muppet version of Mr. Dorsey > answering the question ?When > did you know something was wrong with our financial system?? > > Other famed tech seers are excited about Web3, too. In June 2021, > Andreessen Horowitz, the venture-capital firm co-founded by Marc > Andreessen, announced a $2.2 billion fund?its third?to invest in blockchain > and crypto-related startups. Globally, investment in blockchain startups in > 2021 has shattered all previous records, topping $15 billion so far this > year, a 384% increase from total investment in all of 2020, according to CB > Insights > . > > Almost every company with ?Web3? or ?blockchain? in its pitch deck > describes its mission as a user-centered quest to empower?and just as > often, enrich?its users, making them owners and investors as much as > customers. > > DeSo?which, confusingly, is simultaneously a not-for-profit foundation > , a blockchain and a cryptocurrency token, but > explicitly not a traditional for-profit corporation?is in many ways typical > of the form. The idea behind DeSo is that everyone should be able to create > their own social media service, but also that they could be interconnected > in ways that, say, Facebook and > Twitter would never be?including shared accounts and other shared data. > > ?The thesis behind DeSo is that if you can mix money and social, you can > create new ways for creators to monetize,? says Nader Al-Naji, founder and > head of the DeSo foundation. ?Instead of creators monetizing from ads, they > can monetize from DeSo coins.? > > DeSo has created a new cryptocurrency (named DeSo) that, for example, could > be used to ?tip? other users for their posts, replacing likes with actual > money?or at least DeSo tokens that can be traded for dollars on the usual > cryptocurrency exchanges. Like other next-generation cryptocurrencies, > inspired by Ethereum, these tokens also can store the data that actually > makes up a social network, such as the text of posts (one of Ethereum?s > inventors, Vitalik Buterin, was involved with bitcoin early on and in 2013 > proposed the Ethereum protocol in part because he wanted to create a world > in which no single company could control digital assets). This dual > function illustrates the inspired weirdness that is Web3: If money can > become code, then money can be way more than a means of exchange; it can > also do anything that other software can do. > > This core insight, a sort of E = mc? equivalence between money and > software, is why true believers in Web3 think it could have such a huge > impact. Suddenly every activity humans engage in, from buying and selling a > house to liking a post on social media, can be made part of a token-based > financial system of a scale and complexity that makes today?s look like an > antique. > > Paul Meed, CEO of Moonbounce, one of the startups building an app with > DeSo, thinks that using crypto to create new kinds of exchange between > creators and their fans on social media will ultimately work, but that it?s > still early days for the idea and technology. Making every interaction > between friends on a social network into a monetary transaction still feels > strange for most people, and he sees a great deal of pushback from young > people and fans of creators whenever the idea comes up. > > ?I have a friend with a couple million subscribers, and he made one test > video on YouTube where talked about NFTs, and it was his most downvoted > video of all time,? he adds. > > Rather than funding DeSo in the traditional manner?by creating a startup > and asking the wealthy mandarins of venture capital to part with money in > exchange for partial ownership?DeSo instead sold early investors, including > Andreessen Horowitz, some of its crypto tokens. Any social media service or > app built atop the DeSo blockchain?there are more than 200 of them so far > , all of them tiny?must use the DeSo token. > The more people and groups build, the more valuable the DeSo token could > become. That?s the company?s business model, rather than charging licensing > fees or selling advertising. > > Analogies fail in corporate arrangements as novel as these, which is one > reason blockchain startups remain obscure to most investors. Critics claim > such obfuscation is deliberate, and is as much about hiding suspect > financial and technical engineering as it is a consequence of any supposed > innovation in business models. > > ?The current blockchains are like woefully underpowered computers that can > only do a very, very small amount of transactions, and the things they can > do are shockingly limited,? says Stephen Diehl, a programmer in London whose > frequent essays about the pitfalls of blockchain technology and Web3 > have made him one of > Web3?s most visible and cogent critics. > > Even many of the longer-standing attempts to refashion the internet into > Web3 are still too inchoate to tell if they?ll ever amount to anything. > Before Mr. Dorsey?s obsession with crypto reached its current apotheosis, > he announced in 2019 a project begun by Twitter, called Bluesky, to > ?develop an open and decentralized standard for social media.? > > The goal was to make Twitter or some new service into a flexible and easily > accessed repository for things known as tweets, which people could sort and > view in a variety of new apps built by outside companies. Bluesky?which is > to be independent of Twitter, though it currently has no partners other > than Twitter?would be more like a service for developers, a role like that > of Amazon Web Services. In this way it would be different than a > consumer-facing company with the implicit responsibility for everything > that happens on it and the ability to ban current presidents, as Twitter > did on Jan. 8 to then-president Donald Trump > . > > Bluesky was spearheaded by Twitter?s current CEO > , Parag Agrawal, > but appears to have made little progress since it was announced. Twitter is > hiring for BlueSky and remains committed to the project in the long term, > said a Twitter spokeswoman. Blockchain could be integral to how the project > is made real, she said. > > Twitter?s halting attempts to reinvent itself, and its co-founder?s > abandonment of it in search of new ways to reinvent the internet with > blockchain at Block, illustrate the promise and pitfalls that drive much of > the interest in this technology. ?Everybody sees the problems with the > malign influence of social media these days, and Web3 has become the > messiah technology that?s going to fix all these things,? says Mr. Diehl. > > Grand promises notwithstanding, it?s not yet clear whether Web3 and its > supporting technologies will be soon-to-be-forgotten vaporware, or the next > world-wide web. > > In the future everyone might be able to mint a new crypto ?coin? at will, > whether they?re using it to raise capital for a business, monetize the > popularity of social-media creators, or collect money for their school?s > PTA. Or it?s possible regulators, who this month called crypto startup CEOs > > to > appear before Congress, will decide that the downside of companies issuing > what can look like securities outweigh the opportunities for new kinds of > financial and technical engineering they might enable. > > Whatever happens in the coming years, the torrent of money and interest > flowing into Web3 companies and projects, and the mainstreaming of > blockchain technologies by Block and its competitors > , > are a measure of just how dissatisfied even many of those who built the > current internet have become with it?not to mention how much they think > they can profit from solving the very problems they created. > > Write to Christopher Mims at christopher.mims at wsj.com > > Appeared in the December 18, 2021, print edition as 'The Unlikely > Revolutionaries.' > https://www.wsj.com/articles/jack-dorsey-and-the-unlikely-revolutionaries-who-want-to-reboot-the-internet-11639803654 > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Mon Dec 20 20:23:47 2021 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Mon, 20 Dec 2021 20:23:47 -0800 Subject: [ih] David Mills interview Message-ID: How the ?Father of Modern Time? Helped Build the?Internet