From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 20:48:30 2021 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2021 23:48:30 -0400 Subject: [ih] Literary Estate of M A Padlipsky Message-ID: M A Padlipsky Memorial Website update For the 10th Anniversary of the passing of Michael A Padlipsky, the Literary Estate of MAP announces a revamp of his spectral web presence . Content is divided into "The Book" and ^Old Network Boy^ matters (Multics/DARPAnet/TCP-IP...); his 20thC Single Malt Scotch fandom and "The Research Notes"; and Literary Matters - "The Thesis" on SciFi as LitCrit and related anecdotes etc. Some things like the Pun of the Year '86 and The Wake span sections, naturally! Net-new material by your humble literary executor and editor not previously on the web include the expanded posthumous postscripts on the MOHM quest, the Scotch menu for the Wake, detailed bibliography of the other-guy's more-firstest thesis, and interpolating a narrative in between Mike's own early and late writings on the MOHM with his Malts-L posts. (I regret to share that Mike's final fianc?e, hostess of our Wake for Mike, was one of many, many notable people to ^pass on^ in 20:20, the year of the stopped clock. As was one of the classmates at the wake and primary executor.) (And yes, this includes a new archival home for his technical history essay, And They Argued All Night. I'll take requests for other fondly remembered essays to prioritize for adding.) WILLIAM D RICKER for the Literary Estate of Michael A Padlipsky -- Bill Ricker bill.n1vux at gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 21:01:52 2021 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 00:01:52 -0400 Subject: [ih] Literary Estate of M A Padlipsky In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I suppose it would help if i included the link ... https://n1vux.github.io/articles/MAP/ On Tue, Apr 6, 2021 at 11:48 PM Bill Ricker wrote: > M A Padlipsky Memorial Website update > > For the 10th Anniversary of the passing of Michael A Padlipsky, the > Literary Estate of MAP announces a revamp of his spectral web presence > . > > Content is divided into "The Book" and ^Old Network Boy^ matters > (Multics/DARPAnet/TCP-IP...); his 20thC Single Malt Scotch fandom and "The > Research Notes"; and Literary Matters - "The Thesis" on SciFi as LitCrit > and related anecdotes etc. > > Some things like the Pun of the Year '86 and The Wake span sections, > naturally! > > Net-new material by your humble literary executor and editor not > previously on the web include the expanded posthumous postscripts on the > MOHM quest, the Scotch menu for the Wake, detailed bibliography of the > other-guy's more-firstest thesis, and interpolating a narrative in between > Mike's own early and late writings on the MOHM with his Malts-L posts. > > (I regret to share that Mike's final fianc?e, hostess of our Wake for > Mike, was one of many, many notable people to ^pass on^ in 20:20, the year > of the stopped clock. As was one of the classmates at the wake and primary > executor.) > > (And yes, this includes a new archival home for his technical history > essay, And They Argued All Night. I'll take requests for other fondly > remembered essays to prioritize for adding.) > > WILLIAM D RICKER > > for the Literary Estate of Michael A Padlipsky > > -- > Bill Ricker > bill.n1vux at gmail.com > https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux > -- Bill Ricker bill.n1vux at gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Apr 6 22:33:11 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:33:11 +1200 Subject: [ih] Erratum in IEN 37 Message-ID: As a curious side effect of some unusually acrimonious April 1st traffic in IETFland related to Jonathan Swift, I happened to go looking for IEN 37 to check on the big-endian/little-endian controversy that Danny Cohen settled therein. (He was certainly a wise man when it came to settling acrimonious debates.) The problem I'm now grappling with is that Danny made one error, and there seems to be no errata process for IENs, so I thought I'd report it here, with the greatest respect to Danny's memory. IEN 37 says: > In English, we write numbers in Big-Endians' left-to-right order. I > believe that this is because we SAY numbers in the Big-Endians' order, > and because we WRITE English in Left-to-right order. This is wrong. We write numbers in Arabic order (they're called Arabic numerals for a reason). 199 is written ??? in Arabic. (If that didn't come out right on your screen, your UTF-8 configuration is wrong.) That's big-endian in English script, but little-endian in Arabic right-to-left script (although my understanding is that it's *pronounced* big-endian in Arabic). Regards Brian Carpenter From vint at google.com Wed Apr 7 04:18:56 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 07:18:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] Erratum in IEN 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If we had maintained the IEN list and were still publishing, I suppose you could have published an erratum as a new IEN. I suppose you could publish an independent stream RFC referring to the IEN. We might also need to re-publish the IEN as an informational RFC. v On Wed, Apr 7, 2021 at 1:33 AM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > As a curious side effect of some unusually acrimonious April 1st traffic > in IETFland related to Jonathan Swift, I happened to go looking for IEN 37 > to check on the big-endian/little-endian controversy that Danny Cohen > settled therein. (He was certainly a wise man when it came to settling > acrimonious debates.) > > The problem I'm now grappling with is that Danny made one error, and there > seems to be no errata process for IENs, so I thought I'd report it here, > with the greatest respect to Danny's memory. > > IEN 37 says: > > > In English, we write numbers in Big-Endians' left-to-right order. I > > believe that this is because we SAY numbers in the Big-Endians' order, > > and because we WRITE English in Left-to-right order. > > This is wrong. We write numbers in Arabic order (they're called Arabic > numerals for a reason). 199 is written ??? in Arabic. (If that didn't come > out right on your screen, your UTF-8 configuration is wrong.) That's > big-endian in English script, but little-endian in Arabic right-to-left > script (although my understanding is that it's *pronounced* big-endian in > Arabic). > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Apr 7 05:44:58 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 05:44:58 -0700 Subject: [ih] Erratum in IEN 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469080e2-f501-a082-41b4-8805eec3f9b0@dcrocker.net> On 4/6/2021 10:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > there seems to be no errata process for IENs, The RFC errata policy does not cover errors of fact. It is limited to misstatements that deviate from what the author intended. (I found this out the hard way.) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From touch at strayalpha.com Wed Apr 7 08:06:03 2021 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 08:06:03 -0700 Subject: [ih] Erratum in IEN 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9F39485D-6B24-4A13-98A1-72BECE3B57B2@strayalpha.com> Hi, Brian, > On Apr 6, 2021, at 10:33 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > As a curious side effect of some unusually acrimonious April 1st traffic in IETFland related to Jonathan Swift, I happened to go looking for IEN 37 to check on the big-endian/little-endian controversy that Danny Cohen settled therein. (He was certainly a wise man when it came to settling acrimonious debates.) > > The problem I'm now grappling with is that Danny made one error, and there seems to be no errata process for IENs, so I thought I'd report it here, with the greatest respect to Danny's memory. > > IEN 37 says: > >> In English, we write numbers in Big-Endians' left-to-right order. I >> believe that this is because we SAY numbers in the Big-Endians' order, >> and because we WRITE English in Left-to-right order. > > This is wrong. Danny wrote: 1. English writes numbers big-endian L-to-R 2. Danny believed that this is: a. Because we say numbers in that order And b. Because we write numbers in that order Statement #1 is factually correct. I take Danny at his word for #2. To your point: > We write numbers in Arabic order (they're called Arabic numerals for a reason). Numbers are visually expressed in Arabic order, which is highest value to the left on the page. > 199 is written ??? in Arabic. (If that didn't come out right on your screen, your UTF-8 configuration is wrong.) They both look roughly the same to me - highest value to the left on the page. > That's big-endian in English script, but little-endian in Arabic right-to-left script Perhaps, relative to the text, but not relative to how numbers are written down. Note that this doesn?t invalidate anything Danny said. English numbers are written down left to right in big-endian order. It?s not clear whether Arabic does differently *for numbers*, even though its *letters* are written right-to-left. I suspect Arabic numbers are written ?backwards? relative to letters, i.e., in the same way as English, because I agree that, approximately: > (although my understanding is that it's *pronounced* big-endian in Arabic). Almost. Like German, the ones and tens are inverted, as in: one thousand eight hundred three and seventy. So neither Arabic nor German speak numbers in either big-endian or little-endian order. ? As an aside, I?ve been fascinated to try to figure out how different languages insert ?and? when they speak numbers. Again, Arabic and German do so only between the ones and tens. If the ones is zero, the ?and" is omitted. If ones are zero, there is no ?and? AFAICT. In English, ?and? is inserted only for numbers with at least three digits when the tens are zero and the ones are not. (The hazards of computational linguistics)? Joe From cabo at tzi.org Wed Apr 7 08:32:54 2021 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:32:54 +0200 Subject: [ih] Erratum in IEN 37 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08D17CC0-5AD7-4B59-9466-46228AE496A7@tzi.org> OK, I already sent a version of this off-list, but if people really want to discuss this here... What Brian called Arabic numerals actually are Arabic-Indic (or Eastern Arabic) numerals [1], which are handled exactly like Western Arabic numerals (except that they are harder to see in a hex-dump like below). From Arabic Wikipedia: ????? ????? ??????? ?? 1962 ????? ????? ?? 1979. = The beginning of the Cold War in 1962, which ended in 1979. (Something moved around the period to the right in my mail reader; no idea what you will see.) 00000000: d8a8 d8af d8a7 d98a d8a9 20d8 a7d9 84d8 .......... ..... 00000010: add8 b1d8 a820 d8a7 d984 d8a8 d8a7 d8b1 ..... .......... 00000020: d8af d8a9 20d9 81d9 8a20 3139 3632 20d9 .... .... 1962 . 00000030: 88d8 a7d9 84d8 aad9 8a20 d8a7 d986 d8aa ......... ...... 00000040: d987 d8aa 20d9 81d9 8a20 3139 3739 2e .... .... 1979. Or a different sentence in Persian, with Persian-Arabic numerals (where 4, 5, 6 look different), with annotation added: "??? ???? (???? ? ???? ? ??? ? ??) ??????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ??? >> ".codepoints.map { "%x" % _1 }.join(" ") => "633 627 644 20 **6f1 6f9 6f6 6f2** 20 28 647 632 627 631 20 648 20 646 647 635 62f 20 648 20 634 635 62a 20 648 20 62f 648 29 20 645 6cc 644 627 62f 6cc 60c 20 62f 648 645 6cc 646 20 633 627 644 20 627 632 20 62f 647 647 654 20 **6f1 6f9 6f6 6f0** 20 62f 631 20 633 62f 647 654 20 6f2 6f0 20 645 6cc 644 627 62f 6cc 20 628 648 62f a" >> So numbers actually *are* encoded big-endian in arabic script; we see them in our familiar writing direction (i.e., inverse to the text) because they are LTR fragments in RTL script. Gr??e, Carsten [1]: See also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_numerals From dot at dotat.at Wed Apr 7 09:04:51 2021 From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 17:04:51 +0100 Subject: [ih] Erratum in IEN 37 In-Reply-To: <9F39485D-6B24-4A13-98A1-72BECE3B57B2@strayalpha.com> References: <9F39485D-6B24-4A13-98A1-72BECE3B57B2@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: Joseph Touch via Internet-history wrote: > > Almost. Like German, the ones and tens are inverted, as in: > > one thousand eight hundred three and seventy. > > So neither Arabic nor German speak numbers in either big-endian or > little-endian order. This order was used in English in the past too - have a look at the King James bible for lots of examples. So I guess it's likely that we say numbers the way we do because of how they are written. > In English, ?and? is inserted only for numbers with at least three > digits when the tens are zero and the ones are not. British English always includes an "and" before the tens and units, e.g. "one hundred and thirty-seven" or "two thousand and one". Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch https://dotat.at/ Biscay, North Fitzroy: Variable 3 at first in north Biscay, otherwise easterly 4 to 6. Slight or moderate in Biscay, moderate or rough in north Fitzroy. Showers. Good. From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Apr 7 12:21:31 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:21:31 -0700 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School Message-ID: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> A colleague found this documentary showing how major network transitions were performed circa 1984.?? I thought it might be of historical interest, especially in comparison to techniques used for major transitions in the Internet. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saRir95iIWk It took just "a few seconds" to complete the transition - a major improvement to the typical times of "minutes or even hours" that was the norm. I suspect this practice is also the origin of the term "cutover", as in "cutover from NCP to TCP" or "cutover from IPV4 to IPV6". /Jack From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Wed Apr 7 12:32:08 2021 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 13:32:08 -0600 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School In-Reply-To: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> References: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 4/7/21 1:21 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > It took just "a few seconds" to complete the transition - a major > improvement to the typical times of "minutes or even hours" that was > the norm. Ah. The amount of work preparing for pre-cut-over and cleanup post-cut-over. I refer to such work as "scaffolding". Things that you put in place to support the transition / work being done but aren't needed long term. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Apr 7 12:32:55 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 12:32:55 -0700 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School In-Reply-To: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> References: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <363f0d96-e572-c4f6-1d85-ce37d3a61791@dcrocker.net> On 4/7/2021 12:21 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > It took just "a few seconds" to complete the transition - a major > improvement to the typical times of "minutes or even hours" that was the > norm. In 1985, I worked about a large IBM SNA operation. Having only the Arpanet as framework for doing networking, I was not prepared to hear that addition or removal of a node required taking down the entire network... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Apr 7 17:31:58 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2021 12:31:58 +1200 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School In-Reply-To: <363f0d96-e572-c4f6-1d85-ce37d3a61791@dcrocker.net> References: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> <363f0d96-e572-c4f6-1d85-ce37d3a61791@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 08-Apr-21 07:32, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 4/7/2021 12:21 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> It took just "a few seconds" to complete the transition - a major >> improvement to the typical times of "minutes or even hours" that was the >> norm. > > In 1985, I worked about a large IBM SNA operation. Having only the > Arpanet as framework for doing networking, I was not prepared to hear > that addition or removal of a node required taking down the entire > network... Not to mention that if the new sysgen proved to be faulty, you could end up in a worse place than you started. That video was laugh-out-loud material, but it didn't really explain how they brought up the SS7 by throwing a single switch. I guess they must have pre-installed hundreds of cables; getting that right would have been the hard part. Brian From louie at transsys.com Wed Apr 7 17:47:58 2021 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2021 20:47:58 -0400 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School In-Reply-To: <363f0d96-e572-c4f6-1d85-ce37d3a61791@dcrocker.net> References: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> <363f0d96-e572-c4f6-1d85-ce37d3a61791@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <28D050B2-8749-4FF8-B689-0811CB2D853B@transsys.com> I recall when I was at UUNET, and we were acquired by a success of phone companies.. I found myself in a meeting with the optical transport people trying to plan out future needs. This was in the mid to late 1990's during the period of Internet hyper growth. How much do we need? How much do you have?! I described how often we added capacity in our backbone trunking, which at the time was in the OC3, OC12 days, adding capacity every few weeks as circuits got delivered. I saw looks of surprise, and got asked "When do you schedule all the down time?" Huh? Downtime? "Yeah, when you add the links, don't you have to update all the route tables in the switches?" Uh, no, the routers just sorta figures that out all on their own, dynamically. Like how it recovers from link failures. "No, really, when do you do that?" They really couldn't believe all the connectivity was that dynamic, which was more surprising than how many more T-1's of capacity we needed. Their gut instincts from years and years of voice telephony-based thinking was not serving well, for the times, they were a changing. louie On 7 Apr 2021, at 15:32, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 4/7/2021 12:21 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> It took just "a few seconds" to complete the transition - a major >> improvement to the typical times of "minutes or even hours" that was >> the >> norm. > > In 1985, I worked about a large IBM SNA operation. Having only the > Arpanet as framework for doing networking, I was not prepared to hear > that addition or removal of a node required taking down the entire > network... > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Apr 7 18:17:53 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2021 18:17:53 -0700 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School In-Reply-To: References: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> <363f0d96-e572-c4f6-1d85-ce37d3a61791@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <104b0e0d-b5b6-fc61-546a-5958080a6c95@dcrocker.net> On 4/7/2021 5:31 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Not to mention that if the new sysgen proved to be faulty, you > could end up in a worse place than you started. Yeah, but that's a universal fact, about taking pretty much any action, anywhere, anytime. It's entirely possible that this email will demonstrate the point. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dan at lynch.com Fri Apr 9 17:06:28 2021 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2021 17:06:28 -0700 Subject: [ih] Network "cutover" techniques - 1984 Old School In-Reply-To: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> References: <288fc5bd-ba4e-e1e6-e730-364635f6453f@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <30196A02-EBC7-42B4-88E1-93FF78467104@lynch.com> I especially liked the super sharp cutters to avoid incomplete beheadings. And as Brian noted the single switch to enable the new system ??? Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Apr 7, 2021, at 12:21 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > ?A colleague found this documentary showing how major network transitions > were performed circa 1984. I thought it might be of historical > interest, especially in comparison to techniques used for major > transitions in the Internet. > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saRir95iIWk > > > It took just "a few seconds" to complete the transition - a major > improvement to the typical times of "minutes or even hours" that was the > norm. > > I suspect this practice is also the origin of the term "cutover", as in > "cutover from NCP to TCP" or "cutover from IPV4 to IPV6". > > /Jack > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Sat Apr 10 19:42:04 2021 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2021 22:42:04 -0400 Subject: [ih] Literary Estate of M A Padlipsky In-Reply-To: <9070405D-DBF4-4268-9859-1CE0AADEBF78@comcast.net> References: <9070405D-DBF4-4268-9859-1CE0AADEBF78@comcast.net> Message-ID: I have (with permission) added *Vint Cerf's pre-recorded eulogy* for MAP's Wake (2011 NOV) to the MAP Literary Estate website. 5 years ago on a E-mail vs email (vs netmail) thread, Andy commented on [IH] Andy> As I recall, one of MAP's favorite uses of netmail was to discuss scotch whisky. Absolutely. And that interest is also well represented. If Andy is still listening -- were you on MALTS-L? How early? I got an offlist query, which since 'twas off-list, i'm quoting anonymously (but y'all know each other ...) Anon> Does this include Mike?s famous ?Ritual for Catharsis #1? I think I >>> have a hard copy somewhere, if not. >> >> > > I *will* keep an eye out for RfC#1 ... not to be confused with >> RFC#0001 :-D. >> > (I presume that initialism was intentional.) >> > Now that i know it's significant ... >> > Anon > Yes, it was very much intentional and talks about the Big Bad > Neighbor who delivers coal one lump at a time > Excellent. I have marked this MOST WANTED, and will keep an eye out as i sift physical files and obsolete hard-drives further. If *anyone* else has an easily accessible copy of the privately circulated *Ritual for Catharsis #1,* please do share. Re > one lump at a time That reminds me of how Wang Labs would beat DEC VAX/VMS in *actual* word-processing & email workload *tests*, despite a massive headstart in CPU clock for same $$ and # users, demonstrating "clock speed is just a number" (and one only relevant within a single architecture). DEC salespersons at the time touted their much larger clock speed as ^proof^ their offering was more cost effective. As salesweasels are wont to do. The Wang VS was an ASCII IBM 360 (the odd result of patent exchange - Dr Wang had one of the three key patents on magnetic core RAM, and c.1990 recapitulated with a SIMM RAM patent ! ), so had block-mode green-screen terminals feeding controllers and channel processors, same architecture as an IBM 360/370 MF, but *called* a mini-computer, without the retro-futuristic styling of 3270 cases, and with a heavy emphasis on word-processing and email, though business applications were very much possible too. The CPU polled channels for work waiting to be done, few interrupts required, and only processed *completed* transmitted screens. Meanwhile the VMS CPU required an interrupt service routine to store each keystroke individually,including each backspace. The force multiplier of delegation! A clock advantage 4x or more on CPU couldn't support even half the users the VMS way. (And Wang eventually caught up on Clock too ... just as the market for Word-processing shifted to PCs, even in Law Firms. Oops.) The coincidence that is not chance: the Big Bad Neighbor would have been TENEX (laterly TOPS-20), the BBN improvement on the DEC-10 OS for the PDP-10 processor. (Another ASCII MF pretending to be a minicomputer.) DEC provided an escape sequence to put a VT-100/220 into Block Mode, but that was not the norm in that ecosystem. (At least outside of the accounting side of a shop -- I'm guessing the only VMS application i know of that was ported from VAX to Alpha to iTanium / iTannic was block-mode, as it was COBOL. I think it's *finally* been retired, with workload moving to a commercial IBM MF COBOL application. Still good for accounting!) As MAP would close, with muted cheers, WILLIAM D RICKER for the Literary Estate of Michael A Padlipsky https://n1vux.github.io/articles/MAP/ From agmalis at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 06:50:22 2021 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 09:50:22 -0400 Subject: [ih] Literary Estate of M A Padlipsky In-Reply-To: References: <9070405D-DBF4-4268-9859-1CE0AADEBF78@comcast.net> Message-ID: Bill, > 5 years ago on a E-mail vs email (vs netmail) thread, Andy commented on [IH] > Andy> As I recall, one of MAP's favorite uses of netmail was to discuss scotch whisky. > Absolutely. And that interest is also well represented. > If Andy is still listening -- were you on MALTS-L? How early? That was me. While I was a colleague of Mike's at MITRE, I wasn't on that particular list. This was my first job out of college and my appreciation of the finer aspects of whisky came a bit later in life. Cheers, Andy On Sat, Apr 10, 2021 at 10:42 PM Bill Ricker wrote: > I have (with permission) added *Vint Cerf's pre-recorded eulogy* for > MAP's Wake (2011 NOV) to the MAP Literary Estate > website. > > 5 years ago on a E-mail vs email (vs netmail) thread, Andy commented on > [IH] > > Andy> As I recall, one of MAP's favorite uses of netmail was to discuss > scotch whisky. > > Absolutely. And that interest is also well represented. > If Andy is still listening -- were you on MALTS-L? How early? > > > I got an offlist query, which since 'twas off-list, i'm quoting > anonymously (but y'all know each other ...) > > Anon> Does this include Mike?s famous ?Ritual for Catharsis #1? I think >>>> I have a hard copy somewhere, if not. >>> >>> > >> > I *will* keep an eye out for RfC#1 ... not to be confused with >>> RFC#0001 :-D. >>> > (I presume that initialism was intentional.) >>> > Now that i know it's significant ... >>> >> > Anon > Yes, it was very much intentional and talks about the Big Bad >> Neighbor who delivers coal one lump at a time >> > > Excellent. > I have marked this MOST WANTED, and will keep an eye out as i sift > physical files and obsolete hard-drives further. > If *anyone* else has an easily accessible copy of the privately > circulated *Ritual for Catharsis #1,* please do share. > > Re > > one lump at a time > > That reminds me of how Wang Labs would beat DEC VAX/VMS in *actual* word-processing > & email workload *tests*, despite a massive headstart in CPU clock for > same $$ and # users, demonstrating "clock speed is just a number" (and > one only relevant within a single architecture). > > DEC salespersons at the time touted their much larger clock speed as > ^proof^ their offering was more cost effective. As salesweasels are wont > to do. > > The Wang VS was an ASCII IBM 360 (the odd result of patent exchange - Dr > Wang had one of the three key patents on magnetic core RAM, and c.1990 > recapitulated with a SIMM RAM patent > ! ), so had > block-mode green-screen terminals feeding controllers and channel > processors, same architecture as an IBM 360/370 MF, but *called* a > mini-computer, without the retro-futuristic styling of 3270 cases, and > with a heavy emphasis on word-processing and email, though business > applications were very much possible too. The CPU polled channels for work > waiting to be done, few interrupts required, and only processed > *completed* transmitted screens. Meanwhile the VMS CPU required an > interrupt service routine to store each keystroke individually,including > each backspace. The force multiplier of delegation! A clock advantage 4x > or more on CPU couldn't support even half the users the VMS way. (And > Wang eventually caught up on Clock too ... just as the market for > Word-processing shifted to PCs, even in Law Firms. Oops.) > > The coincidence that is not chance: the Big Bad Neighbor would have been > TENEX (laterly TOPS-20), the BBN improvement on the DEC-10 OS for the > PDP-10 processor. (Another ASCII MF pretending to be a minicomputer.) DEC > provided an escape sequence to put a VT-100/220 into Block Mode, but that > was not the norm in that ecosystem. > (At least outside of the accounting side of a shop -- I'm guessing the > only VMS application i know of that was ported from VAX to Alpha to iTanium > / iTannic was block-mode, as it was COBOL. I think it's *finally* been > retired, with workload moving to a commercial IBM MF COBOL application. > Still good for accounting!) > > As MAP would close, with muted cheers, > > WILLIAM D RICKER > for the Literary Estate of Michael A Padlipsky > https://n1vux.github.io/articles/MAP/ > > From vgcerf at gmail.com Sun Apr 11 14:55:31 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:55:31 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet Message-ID: Dear Vint This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely possibility that you were not aware of it. In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published after his death Cheers Gene Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA Professor of Neurosurgery Chairman Emeritus Albert Einstein College of Medicine Montefiore Medical Center From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Sun Apr 11 15:03:17 2021 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 18:03:17 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1695c6d0-85c6-6fcb-d383-b369cc1c6d2e@meetinghouse.net> And here I thought Al Gore was the Patron Saint of the Internet.? Or at least a major patron (he did, after all, author the High Performance Computing Act that funded us all for quite some time). Cheers, Miles vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > Dear Vint > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > after his death > > Cheers > > Gene > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > Professor of Neurosurgery > Chairman Emeritus > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > Montefiore Medical Center -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From jeanjour at comcast.net Sun Apr 11 15:31:22 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 18:31:22 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23BD93CA-A19A-4627-8903-B643E143955E@comcast.net> Well, I would have voted for Denis Diderot, but the Pope would never have gone for it. ;-) But Diderot was a lot more fun. > On Apr 11, 2021, at 17:55, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > Dear Vint > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > after his death > > Cheers > > Gene > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > Professor of Neurosurgery > Chairman Emeritus > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > Montefiore Medical Center > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Apr 11 17:12:27 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 17:12:27 -0700 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ahah!?? So Isidore invented the Internet in the 7th century.?? I always thought it was you and Bob Kahn.?? /Jack On 4/11/21 2:55 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > Dear Vint > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > after his death > > Cheers > > Gene > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > Professor of Neurosurgery > Chairman Emeritus > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > Montefiore Medical Center From vint at google.com Sun Apr 11 19:26:26 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2021 22:26:26 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: the ARPA time machine project.... v On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 8:12 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Ahah! So Isidore invented the Internet in the 7th century. I always > thought it was you and Bob Kahn. /Jack > > > On 4/11/21 2:55 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > Dear Vint > > > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > > after his death > > > > Cheers > > > > Gene > > > > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > > Professor of Neurosurgery > > Chairman Emeritus > > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > > Montefiore Medical Center > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From farzaneh.badii at gmail.com Mon Apr 12 05:00:11 2021 From: farzaneh.badii at gmail.com (farzaneh badii) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:00:11 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It?s time for us to start looking for the miracles of Saint Joyce of the FTP. On Sunday, April 11, 2021, Vint Cerf via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > the ARPA time machine project.... > v > > > On Sun, Apr 11, 2021 at 8:12 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > Ahah! So Isidore invented the Internet in the 7th century. I always > > thought it was you and Bob Kahn. /Jack > > > > > > On 4/11/21 2:55 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > Dear Vint > > > > > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > > > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier > Club. > > > > > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the > unlikely > > > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > > > > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint > of > > > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > > > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > > > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > > > after his death > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > Gene > > > > > > > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > > > Professor of Neurosurgery > > > Chairman Emeritus > > > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > > > Montefiore Medical Center > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 > > until further notice > -- Farzaneh From wfms at wfms.org Mon Apr 12 05:20:58 2021 From: wfms at wfms.org (wfms at wfms.org) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 12:20:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perhaps an urban legend: https://aleteia.org/2020/05/02/a-patron-saint-of-the-internet-unofficially-though/ or just not officially. On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > Dear Vint > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > after his death > > Cheers > > Gene > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > Professor of Neurosurgery > Chairman Emeritus > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > Montefiore Medical Center > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > wfms From jeanjour at comcast.net Mon Apr 12 05:48:05 2021 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:48:05 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <156AEC4B-BC87-4C42-B00B-CD5DD23C24A0@comcast.net> I will still contend that if compiling an encyclopedia (all human knowledge) is the qualifying criteria (which actually seems to confuse a *use* of the Internet with the Internet) Denis Diderot is more 'our kinda guy.? ;-) > On Apr 12, 2021, at 08:20, wfms--- via Internet-history wrote: > > > Perhaps an urban legend: > > https://aleteia.org/2020/05/02/a-patron-saint-of-the-internet-unofficially-though/ > > or just not officially. > > On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >> Dear Vint >> >> This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of >> Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. >> >> I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely >> possibility that you were not aware of it. >> >> In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of >> the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first >> host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record >> everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published >> after his death >> >> Cheers >> >> Gene >> >> >> Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA >> Professor of Neurosurgery >> Chairman Emeritus >> Albert Einstein College of Medicine >> Montefiore Medical Center >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > wfms > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Mon Apr 12 05:50:27 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 08:50:27 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: wow - TMI!!! v On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 8:21 AM wfms--- via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > Perhaps an urban legend: > > > https://aleteia.org/2020/05/02/a-patron-saint-of-the-internet-unofficially-though/ > > or just not officially. > > On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > Dear Vint > > > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > > after his death > > > > Cheers > > > > Gene > > > > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > > Professor of Neurosurgery > > Chairman Emeritus > > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > > Montefiore Medical Center > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > wfms > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Mon Apr 12 07:22:47 2021 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2021 10:22:47 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88ce6da5-79f6-d1e6-d453-bb91cb01e4c5@meetinghouse.net> Of course, Vint & Bob are still with us, and too modest for Sainthood. :-) Now Licklider... Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Ahah!?? So Isidore invented the Internet in the 7th century.?? I always > thought it was you and Bob Kahn.?? /Jack > > > On 4/11/21 2:55 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> Dear Vint >> >> This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of >> Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. >> >> I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely >> possibility that you were not aware of it. >> >> In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of >> the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first >> host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record >> everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published >> after his death >> >> Cheers >> >> Gene >> >> >> Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA >> Professor of Neurosurgery >> Chairman Emeritus >> Albert Einstein College of Medicine >> Montefiore Medical Center -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From el at lisse.NA Tue Apr 13 05:14:19 2021 From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 14:14:19 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> Hi, RFC1591 states: "The Internet DNS Names Review Board (IDNB), a committee established by the IANA, will act as a review panel for cases in which the parties can not reach agreement among themselves." Rumor has it that this has actually existed at some stage, albeit informally and been involved with a case or two. Has anyone here been involved with this? If so can you recall what the cases were about? greetings, el -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP 10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply From dan at lynch.com Tue Apr 13 11:35:36 2021 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 11:35:36 -0700 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <88ce6da5-79f6-d1e6-d453-bb91cb01e4c5@meetinghouse.net> References: <88ce6da5-79f6-d1e6-d453-bb91cb01e4c5@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <74B4E151-B8E3-4185-AF7A-10B3A426610C@lynch.com> I agree with Miles. Lick had the idea and Bob and Vint came up with the practical architecture. Plenty of room for glory. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Apr 12, 2021, at 7:23 AM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Of course, Vint & Bob are still with us, and too modest for Sainthood. :-) > > Now Licklider... > > Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> Ahah! So Isidore invented the Internet in the 7th century. I always >> thought it was you and Bob Kahn. /Jack >> >> >>> On 4/11/21 2:55 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> Dear Vint >>> >>> This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of >>> Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. >>> >>> I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely >>> possibility that you were not aware of it. >>> >>> In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of >>> the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first >>> host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record >>> everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published >>> after his death >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Gene >>> >>> >>> Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA >>> Professor of Neurosurgery >>> Chairman Emeritus >>> Albert Einstein College of Medicine >>> Montefiore Medical Center > > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. > In our lab, theory and practice are combined: > nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From gnu at toad.com Tue Apr 13 13:50:21 2021 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 13:50:21 -0700 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> Wasn't it Shakespeare, instead, who presaged the Internet in his Sonnet 44? If the dull substance of my flesh were thought, Injurious distance should not stop my way ... http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/44 John From steffen at sdaoden.eu Tue Apr 13 14:22:30 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2021 23:22:30 +0200 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> John Gilmore wrote in <31017.1618347021 at hop.toad.com>: |Wasn't it Shakespeare, instead, who presaged the Internet in his Sonnet |44? | | If the dull substance of my flesh were thought, | Injurious distance should not stop my way ... | |http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/44 The Buddhists believe in a wholistic view. No lawyer gets Amazon or Ebay into that ring _i_ think. (Jesus did too, and see what they made of him, speaking of dull flesh.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From vgcerf at gmail.com Tue Apr 13 23:08:48 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 02:08:48 -0400 Subject: [ih] Italy's 35th Internet anniversary Message-ID: Here is a fun film that was made to celebration the 2016 anniversary: https://www.raiplay.it/video/2016/05/Login-eaa2d582-187f-4ca7-8b64-ed9f9e6dc157.html v From vint at google.com Tue Apr 13 23:21:53 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 02:21:53 -0400 Subject: [ih] Italy's 35th Internet anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: i hate spell correction that is incorrect. CELEBRATE not CELEBRATION v On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 2:09 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Here is a fun film that was made to celebration the 2016 anniversary: > > > https://www.raiplay.it/video/2016/05/Login-eaa2d582-187f-4ca7-8b64-ed9f9e6dc157.html > > v > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From vgcerf at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 00:04:32 2021 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 03:04:32 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet in Italy Message-ID: Another two films mentioned to me by Luciano Lenzini: The website, "The Origins of the Internet in Italy" (in Italian and English), https://lnkd.in/g92TUS8) deals with the stories of pioneering network projects carried oud (1970-1990) by the networking group I led at CNUCE before I moved (1994) to the University of Pisa. This site includes many historical papers and administrative documents (such as a memorandum of understanding signed by organizations taking part in a project), all scanned and made available to the public for consultation. Furthermore, just recently, I directed (for the University of Pisa) the production of the docufilm "Le Origini dell?Informatica e del Networking a Pisa: Gianfranco Capriz racconta" (The Origins of Computer Science and Networking in Pisa: Gianfranco Capriz tells the story) (in Italian), a long interview with Gianfranco Capriz, Professor Emeritus of the University of Pisa and member of the ?Accademia dei Lincei?. You can find it on the YouTube channel of the University of Pisa https://lnkd.in/dMUWrwP. From salo at saloits.com Wed Apr 14 01:17:10 2021 From: salo at saloits.com (Timothy J. Salo) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 03:17:10 -0500 Subject: [ih] Italy's 35th Internet anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 4/14/2021 1:21 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > i hate spell correction that is incorrect. CELEBRATE not CELEBRATION "auto-miscorrect" -tjs From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Wed Apr 14 08:05:37 2021 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:05:37 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: > John Gilmore wrote in > <31017.1618347021 at hop.toad.com>: > |Wasn't it Shakespeare, instead, who presaged the Internet in his Sonnet > |44? > | > | If the dull substance of my flesh were thought, > | Injurious distance should not stop my way ... > | > |http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/44 > > The Buddhists believe in a wholistic view. > No lawyer gets Amazon or Ebay into that ring _i_ think. > (Jesus did too, and see what they made of him, speaking of dull > flesh.) > Or, we could go ALL the way back:? "In the beginning, there was the word." :-) Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 08:59:04 2021 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 11:59:04 -0400 Subject: [ih] Italy's 35th Internet anniversary In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > i hate spell correction that is incorrect. ... > "auto-miscorrect" -tjs > I like to apply their algorithm to its own name ... ? ? auto carrot (OTOH. That all this typing on glass bricks works vaguely well much of the time is frankly amazing.) -- Bill Ricker bill.n1vux at gmail.com https://n1vux.github.io/articles/MAP/ From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Apr 14 09:07:12 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 09:07:12 -0700 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> On 4/14/2021 8:05 AM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: > Or, we could go ALL the way back:? "In the beginning, there was the > word." :-) to capture a salient aspect of that time in history, perhaps: "In the beginning, there was the variable-length word." d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From touch at strayalpha.com Wed Apr 14 13:19:28 2021 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 13:19:28 -0700 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: There was an old text story ?a reading from the book of byte? that went around in the early 80?s. Something about seeing bits, grouping them into sets of 8, saying ?let three be byte?, etc. I have it buried somewhere. Joe > On Apr 14, 2021, at 9:07 AM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 4/14/2021 8:05 AM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: >> Or, we could go ALL the way back: "In the beginning, there was the word." :-) > > to capture a salient aspect of that time in history, perhaps: > > "In the beginning, there was the variable-length word." > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Apr 14 13:49:26 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:49:26 +0200 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <20210414204926.N4c23%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Miles Fidelman wrote in <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6 at meetinghouse.net>: |Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: |> John Gilmore wrote in |> <31017.1618347021 at hop.toad.com>: |>|Wasn't it Shakespeare, instead, who presaged the Internet in his Sonnet |>|44? |>| |>| If the dull substance of my flesh were thought, |>| Injurious distance should not stop my way ... |>| |>|http://www.shakespeares-sonnets.com/sonnet/44 |> |> The Buddhists believe in a wholistic view. |> No lawyer gets Amazon or Ebay into that ring _i_ think. |> (Jesus did too, and see what they made of him, speaking of dull |> flesh.) |> |Or, we could go ALL the way back:? "In the beginning, there was the |word." :-) ..which much too often still awaits the mature ear that it hears. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Apr 14 13:53:29 2021 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 22:53:29 +0200 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20210414205329.OnhXg%steffen@sdaoden.eu> dcrocker at bbiw.net wrote in <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50 at dcrocker.net>: |On 4/14/2021 8:05 AM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: |> Or, we could go ALL the way back:? "In the beginning, there was the |> word." :-) | |to capture a salient aspect of that time in history, perhaps: | |"In the beginning, there was the variable-length word." I rather believe in silent awareness. Is natural to creatures of all kind, and works even in the loudest environment. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Wed Apr 14 14:10:28 2021 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2021 17:10:28 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <31017.1618347021@hop.toad.com> <20210413212230.AiElq%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <1dbaca6c-d06c-5b61-f72b-78521ad2dce6@meetinghouse.net> <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: MAP would appreciate the literary allusions on this thread, and would have i'm sure something witty to offer *en riposte*. I shalln't attempt to channel the master. The 2008 script for the Judi Dench narration on Walt Disney World's Spaceship Earth ride (EPCOT) described the web of Roman roads spanning much of the known world, converging on Rome, with courier chariots establishing their speed of information, as "the first 'World Wide Web'." > Yeah, there are a number of Dad-joke level "puns". And when depicting the sacks of Rome and the Library at Alexandria, Dame Judi's script continues , But then we hit a roadblock?Rome falls, and the great Library of Alexandria > in Egypt is burned. Much of our learning is destroyed?lost forever? or so > we think. > > SCENE CHANGE - THREE MEN *(Speaking Arabic)* > > It turns out there are copies of some of these books in the libraries of > the Middle East, being watched over by Arab and Jewish scholars. Call it *the > first backup system*. The books are saved, and with them our dreams of > the future. > I'd not be alone in claiming Hypatia of Alexandria (335/370-405/415 AD, varies!) as an additional Saint of encyclopedic knowledge in a pantheon with Isodore and Diderot. (And maybe *Funk and Wagnalls*. :-D) Unlike the Roman church hierarchy, her being a Pagan isn't disqualifying for me! (The Eastern Church appears to have appropriated her with a name change ?!) (Landline telegraphers and ham radio ops are among those who've claimed to be the first *social media*, if not the first WWW. :-D Ironically, hams are perhaps the last refuge of ISORM's (A)X.25 development ? ) From johnl at iecc.com Wed Apr 14 16:34:29 2021 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 14 Apr 2021 19:34:29 -0400 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: <2640ff0b-77c9-27d0-eb8c-46542df60b50@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20210414233429.5035572E7455@ary.qy> It appears that Dave Crocker via Internet-history said: >On 4/14/2021 8:05 AM, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: >> Or, we could go ALL the way back:? "In the beginning, there was the >> word." :-) > >to capture a salient aspect of that time in history, perhaps: > >"In the beginning, there was the variable-length word." Hrm, that was more like the second day. The IAS machine, Manchester Mark I, Whirlwind, UNIVAC, and IBM 650 and 701 were fixed word length. I think the first variable word length machine was the IBM 702. There must be a Williams Tube or delay line joke lurking in here somewhere. R's, John From tte at cs.fau.de Wed Apr 14 15:45:29 2021 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 00:45:29 +0200 Subject: [ih] astonishing patron saint of the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20210414224529.GC34032@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Great find. Would be even better if somebody linked this URL into https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isidore_of_Seville That wiki page also makes the patronage look quite oficial and only points to one "promotion" aspect of it. Reading up on it, Isidore looks more like a saint for users hough. I think i would go for Saint Maturinus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maturinus >> The saint is particularly invoked against obsessions and madness, >> as well as the protector of lunatics and plumbers What a nice fit ;-) On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 12:20:58PM +0000, wfms--- via Internet-history wrote: > > Perhaps an urban legend: > > https://aleteia.org/2020/05/02/a-patron-saint-of-the-internet-unofficially-though/ > > or just not officially. > > On Sun, 11 Apr 2021, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > Dear Vint > > > > This Wednesday I am doing a brief presentation about my 1473 copy of > > Isidore of Seville. *Etymologiae* at a Zoom session of the Grolier Club. > > > > I came across this factoid which I share with you in case of the unlikely > > possibility that you were not aware of it. > > > > In 1997 Pope John Paul II declared Isidore of Seville the patron saint of > > the internet. Saint Isidore died in the year 636, long before the first > > host-to-host ARPANET connection in 1969. But Isidore did try to record > > everything ever known in an encyclopedia that was ultimately published > > after his death > > > > Cheers > > > > Gene > > > > > > Eugene S. Flamm, MD, FAANS, FACS, FASA > > Professor of Neurosurgery > > Chairman Emeritus > > Albert Einstein College of Medicine > > Montefiore Medical Center > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > wfms > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- --- tte at cs.fau.de From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Thu Apr 15 17:05:36 2021 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2021 17:05:36 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> References: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> Message-ID: <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> I wasn?t involved, but I found a 1996 draft by JBP that mentions the IDNB a few times. It might provide some leads. You might also try the IAHC and gTLD-MoU mail archives, which are available via the Internet Archive. ?gregbo > On Apr 13, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote: > > Hi, > > RFC1591 states: > > "The Internet DNS Names Review Board (IDNB), a committee established > by the IANA, will act as a review panel for cases in which the > parties can not reach agreement among themselves." > > Rumor has it that this has actually existed at some stage, albeit > informally and been involved with a case or two. > > Has anyone here been involved with this? If so can you recall what the > cases were about? > > greetings, el > > -- > Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist > el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) > PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP > 10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply From el at lisse.NA Thu Apr 15 22:27:56 2021 From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 07:27:56 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> References: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> Message-ID: Thank you, I am the vice chair of the ccNSO's Working Group to develop Policy with regard to a review mechanism such as the IDNB, and (we) would therefor be quite interested in talking to the actual members of the IDNB if it ever came together :-)-O el On 2021-04-16 02:05 , Greg Skinner wrote: > I wasn?t involved, but I found a 1996 draft by JBP > that > mentions the IDNB a few times. It might provide some leads. > > You might also try the IAHC > and > gTLD-MoU > mail > archives, which are available via the Internet Archive. > > ?gregbo > >> On Apr 13, 2021, at 5:14 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> RFC1591 states: >> >> "The Internet DNS Names Review Board (IDNB), a committee established >> by the IANA, will act as a review panel for cases in which the >> parties can not reach agreement among themselves." >> >> Rumor has it that this has actually existed at some stage, albeit >> informally and been involved with a case or two. >> >> Has anyone here been involved with this? If so can you recall what >> the cases were about? >> >> greetings, el [...] -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP 10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Apr 16 04:23:11 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 04:23:11 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> References: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> Message-ID: <1c858e2a-3865-ca13-9aa9-97492fe9ee9d@dcrocker.net> On 4/15/2021 5:05 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: > You might also try the IAHC and gTLD-MoU mail archives, which are available via the Internet Archive. The IAHC did not specify anything that I'd expect to match a function called "names review board". It specified 6 candidate new gTLDs. It defined the registrar/registry construct. And it defined a candidate dispute resolution mechanism that was essentially ad hoc arbitration, rather than any sort of established 'panel'. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From nigel at channelisles.net Fri Apr 16 05:00:11 2021 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:00:11 +0100 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: <1c858e2a-3865-ca13-9aa9-97492fe9ee9d@dcrocker.net> References: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> <1c858e2a-3865-ca13-9aa9-97492fe9ee9d@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: I agree. As a participant in the IAHC and newGTLD-MoU process myselfI can confirm that, to the best of my recollection nothing in its wo k related to the anything like the IDNB as envisaged in RFC-1591. On 16/04/2021 12:23, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 4/15/2021 5:05 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: >> You might also try the >> IAHC? and >> gTLD-MoU? >> mail archives, which are available via the Internet Archive. > > The IAHC did not specify anything that I'd expect to match a function > called "names review board". > > It specified 6 candidate new gTLDs.? It defined the registrar/registry > construct.? And it defined a candidate dispute resolution mechanism that > was essentially ad hoc arbitration, rather than any sort of established > 'panel'. > > d/ > From sob at sobco.com Fri Apr 16 06:49:11 2021 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott Bradner) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 09:49:11 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> References: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> Message-ID: <65ED15B5-1550-4F9B-8B8C-FC803D5014BC@sobco.com> as I recall (and checking with another person that was involved) the board was, at best, extremely informal - Jon talked with specific people he thought might have useful input on a particular topic - i.e., there was no formally constituted board Scott > On Apr 13, 2021, at 8:14 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse via Internet-history wrote: > > Hi, > > RFC1591 states: > > "The Internet DNS Names Review Board (IDNB), a committee established > by the IANA, will act as a review panel for cases in which the > parties can not reach agreement among themselves." > > Rumor has it that this has actually existed at some stage, albeit > informally and been involved with a case or two. > > Has anyone here been involved with this? If so can you recall what the > cases were about? > > greetings, el > > -- > Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist > el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) > PO Box 8421 Bachbrecht \ / If this email is signed with GPG/PGP > 10007, Namibia ;____/ Sect 20 of Act No. 4 of 2019 may apply > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From gregskinner0 at icloud.com Fri Apr 16 13:57:18 2021 From: gregskinner0 at icloud.com (Greg Skinner) Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2021 13:57:18 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet DNS Names Review Board Anyone? In-Reply-To: <1c858e2a-3865-ca13-9aa9-97492fe9ee9d@dcrocker.net> References: <8d3e9354-09a3-a36a-881e-463800b6582c@lisse.NA> <3FCC1397-CB72-4326-B393-16B593C71A94@icloud.com> <1c858e2a-3865-ca13-9aa9-97492fe9ee9d@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Understood. I wasn?t implying that the IAHC was somehow involved in ?names review?, but that its mailing list archives might lead to individuals who could provide Dr. Lisse with the information he is seeking. For what it?s worth, a bit of poking around the IETF mailing list archives turned up a couple more items: Exchange between Donald Eastlake and Simon Higgs regarding the functions of the IAHC and IDNB Simon Higgs??TLD Classification and Catagorization draft ?gregbo > On Apr 16, 2021, at 4:23 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > On 4/15/2021 5:05 PM, Greg Skinner via Internet-history wrote: >> You might also try the IAHC and gTLD-MoU mail archives, which are available via the Internet Archive. > > The IAHC did not specify anything that I'd expect to match a function called "names review board". > > It specified 6 candidate new gTLDs. It defined the registrar/registry construct. And it defined a candidate dispute resolution mechanism that was essentially ad hoc arbitration, rather than any sort of established 'panel'. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Apr 18 12:59:12 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 12:59:12 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Science in 2021 Message-ID: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> While stumbling through the web on a quiet Sunday, I came upon the following, and burst out laughing.? From the MIT online catalog: *6.267 Heterogeneous Networks: Architecture, Transport, Proctocols, and Management* Reflecting on the decades I've spent arguing about network technology and getting "down and dirty" diagnosing and fixing sick networks, it occurred to me that maybe it wasn't just a spelling error (look again), but rather the emergence of a new branch of the science of networks. Did you know that while creating The Internet we were all really Network Proctologists? Hope you have a good chuckle. /Jack Haverty From dhc at dcrocker.net Sun Apr 18 13:14:26 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:14:26 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Science in 2021 In-Reply-To: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> References: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 4/18/2021 12:59 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Did you know that while creating The Internet we were all really Network > Proctologists? So we misunderstood what was meant by working on the Internet's plumbing. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From vint at google.com Sun Apr 18 13:15:20 2021 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 16:15:20 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet Science in 2021 In-Reply-To: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> References: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> Message-ID: "what should I do with these proctocols?" "Stick 'em up your ...." v On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 3:59 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > While stumbling through the web on a quiet Sunday, I came upon the > following, and burst out laughing. From the MIT online catalog: > > > *6.267 Heterogeneous Networks: Architecture, Transport, > Proctocols, and Management* > > Reflecting on the decades I've spent arguing about network technology > and getting "down and dirty" diagnosing and fixing sick networks, it > occurred to me that maybe it wasn't just a spelling error (look again), > but rather the emergence of a new branch of the science of networks. > > Did you know that while creating The Internet we were all really Network > Proctologists? > > Hope you have a good chuckle. > > /Jack Haverty > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From el at lisse.na Sun Apr 18 13:58:59 2021 From: el at lisse.na (el at lisse.na) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 22:58:59 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet Science in 2021 In-Reply-To: References: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <866bbb75-b2bf-4c5c-9848-871dc6a8a29c@Spark> And the odd Gynecologist :-)-O el ? Sent from Dr Lisse?s iPhone On 18 Apr 2021, 22:15 +0200, Vint Cerf via Internet-history , wrote: > "what should I do with these proctocols?" > > "Stick 'em up your ...." > > v > > > > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 3:59 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > While stumbling through the web on a quiet Sunday, I came upon the > > following, and burst out laughing. From the MIT online catalog: > > > > > > *6.267 Heterogeneous Networks: Architecture, Transport, > > Proctocols, and Management* > > > > Reflecting on the decades I've spent arguing about network technology > > and getting "down and dirty" diagnosing and fixing sick networks, it > > occurred to me that maybe it wasn't just a spelling error (look again), > > but rather the emergence of a new branch of the science of networks. > > > > Did you know that while creating The Internet we were all really Network > > Proctologists? > > > > Hope you have a good chuckle. > > > > /Jack Haverty > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 > > until further notice > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Apr 18 15:46:37 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 15:46:37 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet Science in 2021 In-Reply-To: References: <690e3aeb-3cbd-d36e-93f3-14c789346b05@3kitty.org> Message-ID: All those dropped IP datagrams over the last ~50 years have to come out of the Internet somewhere. ? /J On 4/18/21 1:15 PM, Vint Cerf wrote: > "what should I do with these proctocols?" > > "Stick 'em up your ...." > > v > > > > > On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 3:59 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > > While stumbling through the web on a quiet Sunday, I came upon the > following, and burst out laughing.? From the MIT online catalog: > > > ? ? ? ? *6.267 Heterogeneous Networks: Architecture, Transport, > ? ? ? ? Proctocols, and Management* > > Reflecting on the decades I've spent arguing about network technology > and getting "down and dirty" diagnosing and fixing sick networks, it > occurred to me that maybe it wasn't just a spelling error (look > again), > but rather the emergence of a new branch of the science of networks. > > Did you know that while creating The Internet we were all really > Network > Proctologists? > > Hope you have a good chuckle. > > /Jack Haverty > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd? > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 > > until further notice > > > From agmalis at gmail.com Sat Apr 24 11:26:27 2021 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 14:26:27 -0400 Subject: [ih] The Mystery of AS 8003 Message-ID: I just saw this via the xbbn list, and I thought this list would also find it of interest. https://www.kentik.com/blog/the-mystery-of-as8003/ Cheers, Andy From geoff at iconia.com Sat Apr 24 20:34:23 2021 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2021 17:34:23 -1000 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life Message-ID: https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/Minutes-before-Trump-left-office-millions-of-the-16126007.php -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From bob.hinden at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 10:42:54 2021 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 10:42:54 -0700 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> I have read several of the articles on this, anyone know what was really going on? Bob > On Apr 24, 2021, at 8:34 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > > https://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/article/Minutes-before-Trump-left-office-millions-of-the-16126007.php > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From scott.brim at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 10:46:47 2021 From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 13:46:47 -0400 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 1:43 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I have read several of the articles on this, anyone know what was really > going on? > **Apparently** the DoD has contracted with that company to detect people using net 11 and clean them up. The advertisement is legit, the agreement is legit, and it's too bad nobody thought to let the (rest of the) Internet know they were about to advertise 11/8. From dhc at dcrocker.net Mon Apr 26 11:13:44 2021 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 11:13:44 -0700 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b6b18ca-3b97-4530-d830-c5f208313a4c@dcrocker.net> > **Apparently** the DoD has contracted with that company to detect people > using net 11 and clean them up. The advertisement is legit, the agreement > is legit, and it's too bad nobody thought to let the (rest of the) Internet > know they were about to advertise 11/8. that sounds entirely plausible, but the timing is worrying, as is the choice of contractor. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From karl at cavebear.com Mon Apr 26 11:57:08 2021 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 11:57:08 -0700 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 4/26/21 10:46 AM, Scott Brim via Internet-history wrote: >> I have read several of the articles on this, anyone know what was really >> going on? > **Apparently** the DoD has contracted with that company to detect people > using net 11 and clean them up. The advertisement is legit, the agreement > is legit, and it's too bad nobody thought to let the (rest of the) Internet > know they were about to advertise 11/8. If they are advertising this as a single /8 it is unlikely that they will catch many folks who are camping on smaller blocks of that space because route selection will tend to use the longest match prefix rather the the rather short /8 prefix. If they really want to sweep the space to locate usurping uses they probably need to advertise that /8 as a sequence of /24s. And rather than announcing all 64K of those at once (and probably generating a lot of complaints among the BGP community) they would probably need to do a few at a time, letting them sit for a week or two, and then retracting them. That will take long time to do (years.) We used to have a distantly related issue on the Interop show network, 45/8 (which we broke down as /21 subnets.) Various vendors had gear that would try to explore the entire space - and they had never encountered anything larger than a /24 before. --karl-- From bortzmeyer at nic.fr Mon Apr 26 12:08:44 2021 From: bortzmeyer at nic.fr (Stephane Bortzmeyer) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 21:08:44 +0200 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20210426190844.GA14205@nic.fr> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 11:57:08AM -0700, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote a message of 35 lines which said: > If they are advertising this as a single /8 it is unlikely that they will > catch many folks who are camping on smaller blocks of that space because > route selection will tend to use the longest match prefix rather the the > rather short /8 prefix. > > If they really want to sweep the space to locate usurping uses they probably > need to advertise that /8 as a sequence of /24s. It's what they do (and it's much more than a single /8). Technical details: https://www.kentik.com/blog/the-mystery-of-as8003/ Or in your favorite BGP explorer (I use https://stat.ripe.net/) From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Apr 26 12:45:46 2021 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 12:45:46 -0700 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: <20210426190844.GA14205@nic.fr> References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> <20210426190844.GA14205@nic.fr> Message-ID: <1a6d6bbd-0e61-82bb-301f-3881cca5ad4e@3kitty.org> Another interesting question is Why.?? Why is DoD now apparently defending its address space after decades of quiescence??? What happens next? The history of Autonomous Systems might hold a clue.?? Back circa 1982, Bob Kahn asked me to figure out a way to enable the Internet to contain routers built and managed by many different organizations.? I recruited Eric Rosen and we came up with the notion of "Autonomous Systems", and Eric documented EGP (the predecessor to BGP) as a way to begin implementation and experimentation. If you look at that 1982 EGP specification (RFC 827), it says "It is proposed to establish a standard for Gateway to Gateway procedures that allow the Gateways to be mutually suspicious." The intent of EGP and ASes back then was to introduce a mechanism (EGP) that would permit a variety of groups to build their own parts of the Internet, being "mutually suspicious" of each other, but still able to interoperate as a single Internet.?? What it meant to be "mutually suspicious" was left for each such group to invent and implement, with the best idea(s), protocols, algorithms, et al gleaned from such experimentation to be advanced as a standard for the Internet. I didn't follow the subsequent decades of BGP et al, but AFAIK there was little progress on developing techniques for implementing appropriate "mutual suspicion", with occasional widespread Internet disruptions when someone somewhere misconfigures something. So, is DoD now attacking that issue??? Perhaps the DoD AS will become a "Trusted AS" where such things as attacks on routing mechanisms are prevented??? I can envision such an AS as a good place to host things like power grids et al. Or maybe they're just sprucing up their property in preparation for selling that now scarce and valuable IPV4 address space...? Or something else.... /Jack Haverty From geoff at iconia.com Mon Apr 26 13:04:35 2021 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 10:04:35 -1000 Subject: [ih] The big Pentagon internet mystery now partially solved Message-ID: https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-government-and-politics-b26ab809d1e9fdb53314f56299399949 -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From agmalis at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 13:32:30 2021 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:32:30 -0400 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: <20210426190844.GA14205@nic.fr> References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> <20210426190844.GA14205@nic.fr> Message-ID: Wow, according to ARIN, they are advertising a lot of space, including a /7 (two adjoining /8s in an even, odd pair): 6.132.0.0/14 6.136.0.0/13 6.144.0.0/12 6.160.0.0/11 6.192.0.0/10 7.0.0.0/8 11.0.0.0/8 21.0.0.0/8 22.0.0.0/8 26.0.0.0/8 28.0.0.0/7 30.0.0.0/8 33.0.0.0/8 136.188.0.0/14 136.192.0.0/14 136.196.0.0/15 144.235.0.0/16 144.236.0.0/14 144.240.0.0/15 144.242.0.0/16 148.32.0.0/12 152.82.0.0/16 164.180.0.0/14 164.184.0.0/14 164.188.0.0/15 164.240.0.0/13 192.13.0.0/16 192.14.0.0/16 205.0.0.0/11 205.32.0.0/12 205.48.0.0/13 215.128.0.0/9 This list shows the aggregated routes, they're actually advertising 753 prefixes, perhaps for the reason Karl noted. As noted in the Kentik blog, this adds up to 174,784,512 individual IP addresses. That's worth well over $3B on the open market. Cheers, Andy On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 3:09 PM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 11:57:08AM -0700, > Karl Auerbach via Internet-history > wrote > a message of 35 lines which said: > > > If they are advertising this as a single /8 it is unlikely that they will > > catch many folks who are camping on smaller blocks of that space because > > route selection will tend to use the longest match prefix rather the the > > rather short /8 prefix. > > > > If they really want to sweep the space to locate usurping uses they > probably > > need to advertise that /8 as a sequence of /24s. > > It's what they do (and it's much more than a single /8). Technical > details: > > https://www.kentik.com/blog/the-mystery-of-as8003/ > > Or in your favorite BGP explorer (I use https://stat.ripe.net/) > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Apr 26 15:05:40 2021 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 10:05:40 +1200 Subject: [ih] The big Pentagon internet mystery now partially solved In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27-Apr-21 08:04, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > https://apnews.com/article/technology-business-government-and-politics-b26ab809d1e9fdb53314f56299399949 Well, not really very much news there. Maybe the real motivation is to attract attackers: a sting operation propagated by BGP4. Or maybe to play mind games with other regimes that have chosen to use this address space since they believed it would never be announced. Strangley enough, traceroute for many of these addresses seems to get as far as Ashburn VA before petering out. I wonder, could there be any large US Government sites somewhere around there? Brian From bortzmeyer at nic.fr Tue Apr 27 02:56:09 2021 From: bortzmeyer at nic.fr (Stephane Bortzmeyer) Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2021 11:56:09 +0200 Subject: [ih] Minutes before Trump left office, millions of the Pentagon's dormant IP addresses sprang to life In-Reply-To: References: <429626AF-E3F6-4C6B-B089-FFAA2389A15E@gmail.com> <20210426190844.GA14205@nic.fr> Message-ID: <20210427095609.GA14256@nic.fr> On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 04:32:30PM -0400, Andrew G. Malis wrote a message of 158 lines which said: > As noted in the Kentik blog, this adds up to 174,784,512 individual IP > addresses. That's worth well over $3B on the open market. Note it's a purely theoretical figure: if the US army were to sell all these addresses, the price would drop.