From clemc at ccc.com Sun Jul 5 08:39:30 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 11:39:30 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fwd: One of Graphic's Killer Bs, John Beatty has passed away In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The Internet's original graphics trio of "*Booth, Beatty, and Barsky*" (who had been affectionately dubbed the graphics industries' "*Killer Bs*") lost one for their greats minds and personalities this last week. With great sadden in my heart, I regret to inform you that John Beatty has passed away. I was informed this AM by his partner is so many enterprises, Kelly Booth, that John died peacefully in his sleep in the early morning on Thursday, July 2, 2020. When we look at the wonders of the Internet's growth in the use of computer graphics, we view his legacy. But more than that, John was a good friend of many of us and, of course, we all miss him. Kelly tells me that the obituary with further information is being prepared by John?s sister, Jean Beatty, and well as others. We'll be sure to try to pass on a copy (or a link if it is on the web) when it has been released. Clem From hauben at columbia.edu Sun Jul 5 12:23:37 2020 From: hauben at columbia.edu (Jay Hauben) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 15:23:37 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, A friend in Beijing wrote to me that: "I read your presentation and the first thought is how time fly. Net change our world. But looking back to the past. Maybe 1990-2019 are the best 30 years humanity had in all history. We usually got chaos 99% time. But we got development last 30 years. That's not normal." I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at home, no video communication with family and friends, much more loneliness, no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, etc. We are lucky to live in the time when the internet was invented and spread and so many people became netizens and spoke up to try to make their societies better. The pandemic has proven again that we are all in the same big world. That is why the friendship among the people of the world and the internet are so important. From craig at tereschau.net Sun Jul 5 18:27:31 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 19:27:31 -0600 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be > very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at > home, no video communication with family and friends, much more loneliness, > no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, > etc. Just for fun, as alternative history is simply about fun, we probably can envision a world without the Internet. The CCITT and ITU worked very hard to create one. So we'd have whatever the descendant of the videophone is. I imagine we'd have three jacks in some wall outlets: voice, video, and data (cf. what they tried to do for ATM). Your cable modem would be similar (indeed, it is now -- coax for video, phone jack for phone, Ethernet jack for data). Data service would be slow -- say 1.5Mbps and you'd pay a premium to originate video. Computers would have still gotten incredibly fast, so we'd have apps that combined the inputs from the three jacks on the computer to give us video conferencing with shared documents and such. I don't know what social media would look like. My guess is YouTube doesn't exist (the conditions that enabled YouTube would not be present). Charges for videoconferencing would be high -- document sharing and joint editing would be expensive and you'd be much less efficient than you'd be in your regular office, which was wired with some sort of switched local data sharing network (think Netware -- which remember, was doing better than the Internet for part of the 1980s). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 19:39:22 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:39:22 +1200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41136d43-7f7a-ed95-a8fd-23c373ec357c@gmail.com> Craig, you've apparently overlooked that Minitel2020 (the highly developed descendant of the original French Minitel) would perhaps be offering an expensive connection-oriented feature know as Le Zoom, whereby, for example, a whole family could book in advance to be connected at the same time to Le Grandp?re, who would decide which of his descendants would speak next. Regards Brian On 06-Jul-20 13:27, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: >> Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be >> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at >> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > loneliness, >> no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, >> etc. > > Just for fun, as alternative history is simply about fun, we probably can > envision a world without the Internet. The CCITT and ITU worked very hard > to create one. > > So we'd have whatever the descendant of the videophone is. I imagine we'd > have three jacks in some wall outlets: voice, video, and data (cf. what > they tried to do for ATM). Your cable modem would be similar (indeed, it > is now -- coax for video, phone jack for phone, Ethernet jack for data). > Data service would be slow -- say 1.5Mbps and you'd pay a premium to > originate video. > > Computers would have still gotten incredibly fast, so we'd have apps that > combined the inputs from the three jacks on the computer to give us video > conferencing with shared documents and such. > > I don't know what social media would look like. My guess is YouTube > doesn't exist (the conditions that enabled YouTube would not be present). > > Charges for videoconferencing would be high -- document sharing and joint > editing would be expensive and you'd be much less efficient than you'd be > in your regular office, which was wired with some sort of switched local > data sharing network (think Netware -- which remember, was doing better > than the Internet for part of the 1980s). > > Craig > From geoff at iconia.com Sun Jul 5 20:26:28 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 17:26:28 -1000 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: craig, oh please, don't "forget" what our email addresses would have been ????? [copy and pasted from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.400 page], viz.: An X.400 address consists of several elements, including: - C (Country name) - ADMD (Administration Management Domain, short-form A), usually a public mail service provider - PRMD (Private Management Domain, short-form P) - O (Organization name) - OU (Organizational Unit Names), OU is equivalent to OU0, can have OU1, OU2... - G (Given name) - I (Initials) - S (Surname) The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email addresses should be written (for instance on a business card) or even whether the field identifiers should be upper or lower case, or what character sets were allowed. RFC 1685 specified one encoding, based on a 1993 draft of ITU-T Recommendation F.401, which looked like: "G=Harald;S=Alvestrand;O=Uninett;PRMD=Uninett;A=;C=no" On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 3:28 PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > > pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be > > very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at > > home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > loneliness, > > no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, > > etc. > > Just for fun, as alternative history is simply about fun, we probably can > envision a world without the Internet. The CCITT and ITU worked very hard > to create one. > > So we'd have whatever the descendant of the videophone is. I imagine we'd > have three jacks in some wall outlets: voice, video, and data (cf. what > they tried to do for ATM). Your cable modem would be similar (indeed, it > is now -- coax for video, phone jack for phone, Ethernet jack for data). > Data service would be slow -- say 1.5Mbps and you'd pay a premium to > originate video. > > Computers would have still gotten incredibly fast, so we'd have apps that > combined the inputs from the three jacks on the computer to give us video > conferencing with shared documents and such. > > I don't know what social media would look like. My guess is YouTube > doesn't exist (the conditions that enabled YouTube would not be present). > > Charges for videoconferencing would be high -- document sharing and joint > editing would be expensive and you'd be much less efficient than you'd be > in your regular office, which was wired with some sort of switched local > data sharing network (think Netware -- which remember, was doing better > than the Internet for part of the 1980s). > > Craig > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > mailing lists. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 21:23:34 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:23:34 +1200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <982ac948-8920-f105-d952-553675d95c8d@gmail.com> Geoff, That was all very derivative... it originated in 1989, when Denise Heagerty (in my group at CERN) and R?diger Grimm (at GMD) wrote the original proposal: https://cds.cern.ch/record/202026?ln=en Although I had an X.400ish address at that time thanks to EAN, I never had it on a business card; in fact I doubt that I ever gave it to anybody. As far as I can tell, R?diger's umlaut would have been problematic. The G field seems to have been restricted to ASCII in the 1989 version. RFC 1685 is also weak on that front. (The IAB character set workshop, which put this issue on the table, wasn't until 1996.) Regards Brian Carpenter On 06-Jul-20 15:26, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > craig, oh please, don't "forget" what our email addresses would have been > ????? > [copy and pasted from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.400 page], viz.: > > An X.400 address consists of several elements, including: > > - C (Country name) > - ADMD (Administration Management Domain, short-form A), usually a > public mail service provider > - PRMD (Private Management Domain, short-form P) > - O (Organization name) > - OU (Organizational Unit Names), OU is equivalent to OU0, can have OU1, > OU2... > - G (Given name) > - I (Initials) > - S (Surname) > > The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email > addresses should be written (for instance on a business card) or even > whether the field identifiers should be upper or lower case, or what > character sets were allowed. RFC 1685 > specified > one encoding, based on a 1993 draft of ITU-T Recommendation F.401, which > looked like: > "G=Harald;S=Alvestrand;O=Uninett;PRMD=Uninett;A=;C=no" > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 3:28 PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more >> loneliness, >>> no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, >>> etc. >> >> Just for fun, as alternative history is simply about fun, we probably can >> envision a world without the Internet. The CCITT and ITU worked very hard >> to create one. >> >> So we'd have whatever the descendant of the videophone is. I imagine we'd >> have three jacks in some wall outlets: voice, video, and data (cf. what >> they tried to do for ATM). Your cable modem would be similar (indeed, it >> is now -- coax for video, phone jack for phone, Ethernet jack for data). >> Data service would be slow -- say 1.5Mbps and you'd pay a premium to >> originate video. >> >> Computers would have still gotten incredibly fast, so we'd have apps that >> combined the inputs from the three jacks on the computer to give us video >> conferencing with shared documents and such. >> >> I don't know what social media would look like. My guess is YouTube >> doesn't exist (the conditions that enabled YouTube would not be present). >> >> Charges for videoconferencing would be high -- document sharing and joint >> editing would be expensive and you'd be much less efficient than you'd be >> in your regular office, which was wired with some sort of switched local >> data sharing network (think Netware -- which remember, was doing better >> than the Internet for part of the 1980s). >> >> Craig >> >> -- >> ***** >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> mailing lists. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > From dhc at dcrocker.net Sun Jul 5 21:39:23 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 21:39:23 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> On 7/5/2020 8:26 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email > addresses should be written To the extent that x.400 use became common, it wasn't unusual to see a business card with a multi-line email address, for all the attributes you gave, but listing a /series/ of ADMDs, for all the carriers you could reach the person through. Each carrier, really, meant a different email address. (People often miss the wonderfulness of the MX record, and, more generally, separating names from addresses from routes. Someone should write about that...) d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From tte at cs.fau.de Mon Jul 6 07:52:09 2020 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:52:09 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> References: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20200706145209.GK13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> In fairness to X.400 (if that is permissible here on the list), the main reason why addresses where so long was IMHO because of the mindset of the people who created the naming schemes. They wanted email addresses to be as descriptive as those on snail mail envelopes. Hence the rfc822 addresses also turned out to be quite long. My official signature from the end of 1980th: Toerless.Eckert at immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de /C=de/A=d400/P=uni-erlangen/OU=informatik/S=Eckert/G=Toerless/ Policies for email addresses back then in german universities where typically made by the very same people who also made policies for snail-mail and phone systems, so its easy to see how historical references where important criteria. And as young engineers back then we also suspected those people where overlooked by de-nazification the way they where willing to discuss policies (not). As email postmasters we got ourselves a shorter domain (fau.de) back then. I think it took about 20 years and then that became the official name for the university and primary domain, because by then a new generation of policy makers was around. I think i see the very same thing today by people responsible for policies of the Internet after its leaderhip too is steeped in historical experience now. In fact, i just had one for me quite painful experience with the Internet orthodoxy about rfc822 addresses. Bringing back an old signature below from back then, which i think sums it up nicely. Cheers Toerless "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants." Isaac Newton "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on my shoulders." Hal Abelson "In computer science, we stand on each other's feet." Brian Reid On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 09:39:23PM -0700, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 7/5/2020 8:26 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history > wrote: > > The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email > > addresses should be written > > > To the extent that x.400 use became common, it wasn't unusual to see a > business card with a multi-line email address, for all the attributes you > gave, but listing a /series/ of ADMDs, for all the carriers you could reach > the person through. Each carrier, really, meant a different email address. > > (People often miss the wonderfulness of the MX record, and, more generally, > separating names from addresses from routes. Someone should write about > that...) > > d/ > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- --- tte at cs.fau.de From gnu at toad.com Mon Jul 6 07:52:58 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 07:52:58 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> > I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular > time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be > very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at > home, no video communication with family and friends, much more loneliness, In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The Great Work. See: https://www.eff.org/pages/complete-acm-columns-collection#greatwork So ok, we built that! What now? Who has a vision for what it'll be like 30 years from today? "What thoughts will all this assembled neurology, silicon, and optical fiber think?" John PS: > no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, There were plenty of pre-Internet ways to stop rumors and get information to ordinary people. Consider AM radio. And tiny numbers of television networks (3 in the US, 1 in many countries). Shortwave receivers. Magazines, newspapers, libraries, conferences, postal letters, phone calls. Oh yes, *books*. Literacy. Reading, writing and arithmetic. From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Mon Jul 6 08:25:51 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:25:51 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: >> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular >> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be >> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at >> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more loneliness, > In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every > other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, > faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television > as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The Great > Work. Long before that, Licklider wrote: "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process data in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know today."? (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 (https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network). Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From dot at dotat.at Mon Jul 6 09:02:35 2020 From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 17:02:35 +0100 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> References: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > To the extent that x.400 use became common, it wasn't unusual to see a > business card with a multi-line email address, for all the attributes you > gave, but listing a /series/ of ADMDs, for all the carriers you could reach > the person through. Each carrier, really, meant a different email address. This makes it sound a bit like late-1980s-style % hacks for gatewaying email were baked into X.400. Here's one of my favourite descriptions of a world that was a few years gone before I got on the net: http://vtda.org/docs/computing/UniversityOfWarwick/JANET-Mail-Gateways.pdf Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ The Minch: Westerly or northwesterly 5 or 6, occasionally 7 at first in north, decreasing 3 or 4, then becoming variable later. Slight or moderate, becoming smooth later in central areas. Showers, squally at first. Good. From don at donhopkins.com Mon Jul 6 10:07:13 2020 From: don at donhopkins.com (Don Hopkins) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:07:13 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: > > On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > >>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular >>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more loneliness, >> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every >> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a >> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, >> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television >> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The Great >> Work. > > Long before that, Licklider wrote: > > "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process data in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > > And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 (https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network). > > Miles Fidelman Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: ?It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but on that account we shall be more attached to one another.? And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half foot long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME?? -Dr. Frederick Frankenstein -Don From geoff at iconia.com Mon Jul 6 10:56:56 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 07:56:56 -1000 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: and let's not forget that in 1967 there was The Science of Microelectronics in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D geoff On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > > >>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular > >>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could > be > >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at > >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > loneliness, > >> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every > >> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > >> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, > >> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television > >> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The Great > >> Work. > > > > Long before that, Licklider wrote: > > > > "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing > machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting > partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process data > in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know > today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, > https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > > > > And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: > Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 ( > https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network > ). > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > > ?It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but on that > account we shall be more attached to one another.? > > And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > > "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half foot > long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME?? -Dr. > Frederick Frankenstein > > -Don > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From geoff at iconia.com Mon Jul 6 11:03:51 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 08:03:51 -1000 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <20200706145209.GK13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> <20200706145209.GK13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: vis-a-vis "Bringing back an old signature below from back then, which i think sums it up nicely." here are a couple more from that era: "Computer scientists don't have to worry about the world. They don't have to develop theories of the world and then build tools to test it. Rather, they just build tools to satisfy their own worlds. Ask a computer science graduate student what his or her thesis is and the best they can answer is that the program or machine they are working on will be a good thing to have." -- Chuck Thacker, in "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the First Personal Computer"; "Sendmail is a nifty mailer whose flexibility ... is nothing short of amazing. How did Eric Allman embed this flexibility? He used a variation on Post Productions as address rewriting rules. If he hadn't taken a theory course, none of us would have sendmail today." -- Mark Horton, in net.college, supporting the teaching of theory courses. On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 4:52 AM Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > In fairness to X.400 (if that is permissible here on the list), the main > reason why > addresses where so long was IMHO because of the mindset of the people who > created > the naming schemes. They wanted email addresses to be as descriptive as > those > on snail mail envelopes. Hence the rfc822 addresses also turned out to be > quite long. > My official signature from the end of 1980th: > > Toerless.Eckert at immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de > /C=de/A=d400/P=uni-erlangen/OU=informatik/S=Eckert/G=Toerless/ > > Policies for email addresses back then in german universities where > typically made > by the very same people who also made policies for snail-mail and phone > systems, > so its easy to see how historical references where important criteria. And > as > young engineers back then we also suspected those people where overlooked > by > de-nazification the way they where willing to discuss policies (not). > > As email postmasters we got ourselves a shorter domain (fau.de) back > then. I think it > took about 20 years and then that became the official name for the > university > and primary domain, because by then a new generation of policy makers was > around. > > I think i see the very same thing today by people responsible for policies > of the > Internet after its leaderhip too is steeped in historical experience now. > In fact, > i just had one for me quite painful experience with the Internet orthodoxy > about > rfc822 addresses. > > Bringing back an old signature below from back then, which i think sums it > up nicely. > > Cheers > Toerless > > "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the > shoulders of giants." > Isaac Newton > > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were standing on > my shoulders." > Hal Abelson > > "In computer science, we stand on each other's feet." > Brian Reid > > > On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 09:39:23PM -0700, Dave Crocker via > Internet-history wrote: > > On 7/5/2020 8:26 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history > > wrote: > > > The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email > > > addresses should be written > > > > > > To the extent that x.400 use became common, it wasn't unusual to see a > > business card with a multi-line email address, for all the attributes you > > gave, but listing a /series/ of ADMDs, for all the carriers you could > reach > > the person through. Each carrier, really, meant a different email > address. > > > > (People often miss the wonderfulness of the MX record, and, more > generally, > > separating names from addresses from routes. Someone should write about > > that...) > > > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > bbiw.net > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > --- > tte at cs.fau.de > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From richard at bennett.com Mon Jul 6 11:09:33 2020 From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 12:09:33 -0600 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> <20200706145209.GK13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: Without Twitter and Facebook would Donald Trump be president of the United States? Maybe so since he was a TV personality before becoming a politician, but who knows? RB ? Richard Bennett High Tech Forum?Founder Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards?co-creator Internet Policy Consultant,?ex- ITIF and AEI @HighTechForum -----Original Message----- From: Internet-history On Behalf Of the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history Sent: Monday, July 6, 2020 12:04 PM To: Toerless Eckert Cc: Dave Crocker ; Internet-history ; Dave Crocker Subject: Re: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 vis-a-vis "Bringing back an old signature below from back then, which i think sums it up nicely." here are a couple more from that era: "Computer scientists don't have to worry about the world. They don't have to develop theories of the world and then build tools to test it. Rather, they just build tools to satisfy their own worlds. Ask a computer science graduate student what his or her thesis is and the best they can answer is that the program or machine they are working on will be a good thing to have." -- Chuck Thacker, in "Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the First Personal Computer"; "Sendmail is a nifty mailer whose flexibility ... is nothing short of amazing. How did Eric Allman embed this flexibility? He used a variation on Post Productions as address rewriting rules. If he hadn't taken a theory course, none of us would have sendmail today." -- Mark Horton, in net.college, supporting the teaching of theory courses. On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 4:52 AM Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > In fairness to X.400 (if that is permissible here on the list), the > main reason why addresses where so long was IMHO because of the > mindset of the people who created the naming schemes. They wanted > email addresses to be as descriptive as those on snail mail envelopes. > Hence the rfc822 addresses also turned out to be quite long. > My official signature from the end of 1980th: > > Toerless.Eckert at immd4.informatik.uni-erlangen.de > /C=de/A=d400/P=uni-erlangen/OU=informatik/S=Eckert/G=Toerless/ > > Policies for email addresses back then in german universities where > typically made by the very same people who also made policies for > snail-mail and phone systems, so its easy to see how historical > references where important criteria. And as young engineers back then > we also suspected those people where overlooked by de-nazification the > way they where willing to discuss policies (not). > > As email postmasters we got ourselves a shorter domain (fau.de) back > then. I think it took about 20 years and then that became the official > name for the university and primary domain, because by then a new > generation of policy makers was around. > > I think i see the very same thing today by people responsible for > policies of the Internet after its leaderhip too is steeped in > historical experience now. > In fact, > i just had one for me quite painful experience with the Internet > orthodoxy about > rfc822 addresses. > > Bringing back an old signature below from back then, which i think > sums it up nicely. > > Cheers > Toerless > > "If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on > the shoulders of giants." > Isaac Newton > > "If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants were > standing on my shoulders." > Hal Abelson > > "In computer science, we stand on each other's feet." > Brian Reid > > > On Sun, Jul 05, 2020 at 09:39:23PM -0700, Dave Crocker via > Internet-history wrote: > > On 7/5/2020 8:26 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history > > wrote: > > > The standards themselves originally did not specify how these > > > email addresses should be written > > > > > > To the extent that x.400 use became common, it wasn't unusual to see > > a business card with a multi-line email address, for all the > > attributes you gave, but listing a /series/ of ADMDs, for all the > > carriers you could > reach > > the person through. Each carrier, really, meant a different email > address. > > > > (People often miss the wonderfulness of the MX record, and, more > generally, > > separating names from addresses from routes. Someone should write > > about > > that...) > > > > d/ > > -- > > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > bbiw.net > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > --- > tte at cs.fau.de > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jeanjour at comcast.net Mon Jul 6 11:15:16 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:15:16 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <14861D39-21F1-45C2-98E8-3B81723906D6@comcast.net> And the villain was TPC! ;-) The Phone Company Do you also know The Tall Blonde Man with One Black Shoe? Another very funny movie with a very serious point. > On Jul 6, 2020, at 13:56, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > > and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > The Science of Microelectronics > in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * > "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > > for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D > > geoff > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>> On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>>>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular >>>>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >>>>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could >> be >>>>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at >>>>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more >> loneliness, >>>> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every >>>> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a >>>> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, >>>> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television >>>> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The Great >>>> Work. >>> >>> Long before that, Licklider wrote: >>> >>> "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing >> machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting >> partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process data >> in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know >> today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, >> https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) >>> >>> And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: >> Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 ( >> https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network >> ). >>> >>> Miles Fidelman >> >> >> Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: >> >> ?It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but on that >> account we shall be more attached to one another.? >> >> And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: >> >> "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half foot >> long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME?? -Dr. >> Frederick Frankenstein >> >> -Don >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From geoff at iconia.com Mon Jul 6 11:33:55 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 08:33:55 -1000 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <14861D39-21F1-45C2-98E8-3B81723906D6@comcast.net> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <14861D39-21F1-45C2-98E8-3B81723906D6@comcast.net> Message-ID: the only tall man with a black shoe yours truly is familiar with -- in this kinda "regard" -- would be the (1965-1970) Maxwell Smart (black) shoe phone, viz.: [image: image.png] (hoping the above copy-and-pasted photo will came thru here, if not, it's available at: https://twitter.com/keyboardofGeoff/status/1260763728758202369/ ) On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:15 AM John Day wrote: > And the villain was TPC! ;-) > > The Phone Company > > Do you also know The Tall Blonde Man with One Black Shoe? > Another very funny movie with a very serious point. > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 13:56, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: > > > > and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > > The Science of Microelectronics > > in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * > > "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > > (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > > > > for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D > > > > geoff > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > >>> > >>>>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a > spectacular > >>>>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > >>>>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could > >> be > >>>>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck > at > >>>>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > >> loneliness, > >>>> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every > >>>> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > >>>> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, > >>>> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television > >>>> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The > Great > >>>> Work. > >>> > >>> Long before that, Licklider wrote: > >>> > >>> "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing > >> machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting > >> partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process > data > >> in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know > >> today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, > >> https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > >>> > >>> And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: > >> Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 ( > >> > https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network > >> ). > >>> > >>> Miles Fidelman > >> > >> > >> Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > >> > >> ?It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but on > that > >> account we shall be more attached to one another.? > >> > >> And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > >> > >> "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half > foot > >> long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME?? > -Dr. > >> Frederick Frankenstein > >> > >> -Don > >> > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > > living as The Truth is True > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Jul 6 11:50:47 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 11:50:47 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? Message-ID: For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from brainstorm to reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded me.? So a question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an Internet-related idea from concept decades ago to reality today? There's a specific idea that I have in mind.? Back in the early 70s, Licklider ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I worked at MIT.? Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning subroutines and data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, paragraphs, and documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs.? These "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic computer network". Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that sure sounds pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write libraries of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized data structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them together into sentences, aka programs, to do useful work.???? Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called "Automatic Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood for something but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was well-documented (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a searchable database for use by subsequent programmers. But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly language, text-only terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET.?? None of this was especially portable and has long since disappeared. Fast forward to 2020.? I recently stumbled across a technology called NodeRed, somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components which do interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's terminology.? The programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the pieces you need, and then "wire" them together to create functional programming.?? You create your program by literally drawing a picture.? The Internet provides the necessary communications substrate on which all these actors perform.?? People can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. IMHO, Lick would have loved this. I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation programs, e.g., stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger.?? Or send me email when something unusual is detected.? Or almost anything else you can think of. It really is very simple to use.? I can see the parallels between Lick's 70s vision and today's actual implementations.?? Instead of a PDP-10 and ARPANET, today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B.? There were lots of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, etc.?? There were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to careers.? Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the appearance of NodeRed 50 years later??? Or was it some totally different evolution from someone's else's similar vision? Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces of the evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use??? How did something like NodeRed come from vision to reality? /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) From tte at cs.fau.de Mon Jul 6 11:58:48 2020 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:58:48 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 07:56:56AM -1000, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > The Science of Microelectronics > in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * > "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > > for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D TPC.INT https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phone_Company Interesting to see how E164 is still alive and kicking, primarily now (IMHO) for SMS authentication and not telephony anymore, but we still do not have good mapping between E164 and Internet name spaces. I guess its part of the great divide (ISOC vs. Governments). Toerless > geoff > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > >>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a spectacular > > >>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > > >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could > > be > > >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at > > >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > > loneliness, > > >> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every > > >> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > > >> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, software, > > >> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition Television > > >> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The Great > > >> Work. > > > > > > Long before that, Licklider wrote: > > > > > > "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing > > machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting > > partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process data > > in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know > > today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, > > https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > > > > > > And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: > > Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 ( > > https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network > > ). > > > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > > > > Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > > > > ???It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but on that > > account we shall be more attached to one another.??? > > > > And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > > > > "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half foot > > long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME???? -Dr. > > Frederick Frankenstein > > > > -Don From vint at google.com Mon Jul 6 12:02:09 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:02:09 -0400 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: a lot of what we have today seems very resonant with Lick and Engelbart's thinking. Good historians do try to capture not only factual information but how the flow of history was influenced by key events, ideas and people v On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:51 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from > brainstorm to > reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded me. So a > question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an > Internet-related > idea from concept decades ago to reality today? > > There's a specific idea that I have in mind. Back in the early 70s, > Licklider > ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I worked > at > MIT. Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning > subroutines and > data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, > paragraphs, and > documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs. These > "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic > computer > network". > > Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that sure > sounds > pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. > > Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write > libraries > of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized data > structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them > together into > sentences, aka programs, to do useful work. > > Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called "Automatic > Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood for > something > but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was well-documented > (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a > searchable > database for use by subsequent programmers. > > But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly language, > text-only > terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET. None of this was > especially > portable and has long since disappeared. > > Fast forward to 2020. I recently stumbled across a technology called > NodeRed, > somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components > which do > interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's > terminology. The > programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the > pieces you > need, and then "wire" them together to create functional programming. You > create your program by literally drawing a picture. The Internet > provides the > necessary communications substrate on which all these actors perform. > People > can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. > > IMHO, Lick would have loved this. > > I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation programs, > e.g., > stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger. Or send me > email > when something unusual is detected. Or almost anything else you can > think of. > It really is very simple to use. I can see the parallels between Lick's > 70s > vision and today's actual implementations. Instead of a PDP-10 and > ARPANET, > today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. > > So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B. There > were lots > of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, > etc. There > were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to > careers. > Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the appearance of > NodeRed 50 years later? Or was it some totally different evolution from > someone's else's similar vision? > > Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces of the > evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use? How did > something > like NodeRed come from vision to reality? > > /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- current postal address: Google, LLC 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 After July 1, 2020: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From vint at google.com Mon Jul 6 12:03:05 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:03:05 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: ENUM was supposed to help with that mapping but... v On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:59 PM Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 07:56:56AM -1000, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow > via Internet-history wrote: > > and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > > The Science of Microelectronics > > in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * > > "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > > (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > > > > for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D > > TPC.INT > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phone_Company > > Interesting to see how E164 is still alive and kicking, primarily now > (IMHO) for > SMS authentication and not telephony anymore, but we still do not have good > mapping between E164 and Internet name spaces. I guess its part of the > great > divide (ISOC vs. Governments). > > Toerless > > > geoff > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > > >>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a > spectacular > > > >>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > > > >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there > could > > > be > > > >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students > stuck at > > > >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > > > loneliness, > > > >> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every > > > >> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > > > >> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, > software, > > > >> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition > Television > > > >> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The > Great > > > >> Work. > > > > > > > > Long before that, Licklider wrote: > > > > > > > > "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing > > > machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting > > > partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process > data > > > in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know > > > today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, > > > https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > > > > > > > > And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: > > > Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 > ( > > > > https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network > > > ). > > > > > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > > > > > > > Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > > > > > > ???It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but > on that > > > account we shall be more attached to one another.??? > > > > > > And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > > > > > > "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half > foot > > > long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME???? > -Dr. > > > Frederick Frankenstein > > > > > > -Don > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- current postal address: Google, LLC 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 After July 1, 2020: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Mon Jul 6 12:05:56 2020 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 15:05:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F037614.17004.13BC66FA@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 6 Jul 2020 at 11:50, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > ..? So > a > question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an > Internet-related > idea from concept decades ago to reality today? > How about the idea of hypertext, from Ted Nelson through to the recent stuff with web-apps and JSON and all of that? /Bernie\ Bernie Cosell bernie at fantasyfarm.com -- Too many people; too few sheep -- From sob at sobco.com Mon Jul 6 12:08:10 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:08:10 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> enum is well used inside telephone companies to do number mapping (or so I'm told) but the public enum died because of privacy concerns Scott > On Jul 6, 2020, at 3:03 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > ENUM was supposed to help with that mapping but... > v > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:59 PM Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 07:56:56AM -1000, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow >> via Internet-history wrote: >>> and let's not forget that in 1967 there was >>> The Science of Microelectronics >>> in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * >>> "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" >>> (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 >>> >>> for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D >> >> TPC.INT >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phone_Company >> >> Interesting to see how E164 is still alive and kicking, primarily now >> (IMHO) for >> SMS authentication and not telephony anymore, but we still do not have good >> mapping between E164 and Internet name spaces. I guess its part of the >> great >> divide (ISOC vs. Governments). >> >> Toerless >> >>> geoff >>> >>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a >> spectacular >>>>>>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >>>>>>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there >> could >>>> be >>>>>>> very little working from home, no online classes for students >> stuck at >>>>>>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more >>>> loneliness, >>>>>> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every >>>>>> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a >>>>>> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, >> software, >>>>>> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition >> Television >>>>>> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The >> Great >>>>>> Work. >>>>> >>>>> Long before that, Licklider wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing >>>> machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting >>>> partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process >> data >>>> in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know >>>> today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, >>>> https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) >>>>> >>>>> And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: >>>> Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 >> ( >>>> >> https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network >>>> ). >>>>> >>>>> Miles Fidelman >>>> >>>> >>>> Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: >>>> >>>> ???It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but >> on that >>>> account we shall be more attached to one another.??? >>>> >>>> And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: >>>> >>>> "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half >> foot >>>> long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME???? >> -Dr. >>>> Frederick Frankenstein >>>> >>>> -Don >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > current postal address: > Google, LLC > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > > After July 1, 2020: > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > Reston, VA 20190 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From steve at shinkuro.com Mon Jul 6 12:25:04 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:25:04 -0400 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jack, The original visions fo Lick, the AI senior people -- Simon, Newell, McCarthy, Minsky, Engelbart and others repeatedly animated ARPA sponsored computer science research over many years. Some ideas attempted and reattempted. Hardware was often (always?) a gating factor, but, of course, there was also a learning curve. From mid 1971 to mid 194 I oversaw the first few years of the Speech Understanding Program. The goal was understanding connected speech input in a constrained task environment. 1,000 word vocabulary, standard American male broadcast speech in a clean environment. No requirement to operate in real time. There are traceable tracks from that work to today's Alexa, Siri, et al. Lick had a vision of a unified library. I'm not sure today's Google is quite what he had in mind, but it's quite astonishing nonetheless. David Alan Grier and I are working on a history of the Arpanet. We've been trying to describe the context, i.e. the state of the art and the motivation, and that's led us inevitably into the broader context of the goals for man machine interaction during that period. We certainly won't be able to include all the threads from that period, so there is room for multiple histories to be written. Steve On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:51 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from > brainstorm to > reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded me. So a > question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an > Internet-related > idea from concept decades ago to reality today? > > There's a specific idea that I have in mind. Back in the early 70s, > Licklider > ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I worked > at > MIT. Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning > subroutines and > data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, > paragraphs, and > documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs. These > "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic > computer > network". > > Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that sure > sounds > pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. > > Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write > libraries > of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized data > structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them > together into > sentences, aka programs, to do useful work. > > Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called "Automatic > Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood for > something > but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was well-documented > (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a > searchable > database for use by subsequent programmers. > > But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly language, > text-only > terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET. None of this was > especially > portable and has long since disappeared. > > Fast forward to 2020. I recently stumbled across a technology called > NodeRed, > somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components > which do > interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's > terminology. The > programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the > pieces you > need, and then "wire" them together to create functional programming. You > create your program by literally drawing a picture. The Internet > provides the > necessary communications substrate on which all these actors perform. > People > can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. > > IMHO, Lick would have loved this. > > I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation programs, > e.g., > stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger. Or send me > email > when something unusual is detected. Or almost anything else you can > think of. > It really is very simple to use. I can see the parallels between Lick's > 70s > vision and today's actual implementations. Instead of a PDP-10 and > ARPANET, > today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. > > So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B. There > were lots > of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, > etc. There > were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to > careers. > Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the appearance of > NodeRed 50 years later? Or was it some totally different evolution from > someone's else's similar vision? > > Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces of the > evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use? How did > something > like NodeRed come from vision to reality? > > /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From geoff at iconia.com Mon Jul 6 12:43:40 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 09:43:40 -1000 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hopefully "the evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use" can include a "notion" of yours truly recalls Bob Kahn spoke about at a conference presentation sometime in the 70's (or perhaps early 80's) on the ARPANET: Bob Kahn said something along the lines that email on the ARPANET was something that was not planned but kinda "evolved" by "accident" -- i.e. was not something that was a part of the conception/technical idea in the inception/purpose of the creation/need for the ARPANET. the creation of ARPANET kinda, thus, became/was an agar laden petri dish that "grew" a "culture" of/for which things -- such as email -- evolved in the result of which was email sprouting into widespread use... geoff On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 8:51 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from > brainstorm to > reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded me. So a > question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an > Internet-related > idea from concept decades ago to reality today? > > There's a specific idea that I have in mind. Back in the early 70s, > Licklider > ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I worked > at > MIT. Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning > subroutines and > data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, > paragraphs, and > documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs. These > "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic > computer > network". > > Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that sure > sounds > pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. > > Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write > libraries > of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized data > structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them > together into > sentences, aka programs, to do useful work. > > Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called "Automatic > Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood for > something > but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was well-documented > (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a > searchable > database for use by subsequent programmers. > > But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly language, > text-only > terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET. None of this was > especially > portable and has long since disappeared. > > Fast forward to 2020. I recently stumbled across a technology called > NodeRed, > somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components > which do > interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's > terminology. The > programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the > pieces you > need, and then "wire" them together to create functional programming. You > create your program by literally drawing a picture. The Internet > provides the > necessary communications substrate on which all these actors perform. > People > can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. > > IMHO, Lick would have loved this. > > I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation programs, > e.g., > stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger. Or send me > email > when something unusual is detected. Or almost anything else you can > think of. > It really is very simple to use. I can see the parallels between Lick's > 70s > vision and today's actual implementations. Instead of a PDP-10 and > ARPANET, > today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. > > So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B. There > were lots > of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, > etc. There > were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to > careers. > Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the appearance of > NodeRed 50 years later? Or was it some totally different evolution from > someone's else's similar vision? > > Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces of the > evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use? How did > something > like NodeRed come from vision to reality? > > /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From tte at cs.fau.de Mon Jul 6 13:11:22 2020 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 22:11:22 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> Message-ID: <20200706201122.GO13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 03:08:10PM -0400, Scott O. Bradner wrote: > enum is well used inside telephone companies to do number mapping (or so I'm told) > but the public enum died because of privacy concerns Probably too simplistic. Should not have been a reason for all those E164 for companies tht are public knowledge (like their 'www' domain name). I would guess that the complexity of SIP/ICE/STUN/TURN for p2p connections played a much more key role. And the business interests of operators for whom p2p connections would have reduced revenue. And a good part of the video-conference developer community who never liked E164 in the first place and wanted to go to email address style names. Cheers Toerless > Scott > > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 3:03 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > > ENUM was supposed to help with that mapping but... > > v > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:59 PM Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 07:56:56AM -1000, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow > >> via Internet-history wrote: > >>> and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > >>> The Science of Microelectronics > >>> in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * > >>> "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > >>> (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: > >>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > >>> > >>> for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D > >> > >> TPC.INT > >> > >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phone_Company > >> > >> Interesting to see how E164 is still alive and kicking, primarily now > >> (IMHO) for > >> SMS authentication and not telephony anymore, but we still do not have good > >> mapping between E164 and Internet name spaces. I guess its part of the > >> great > >> divide (ISOC vs. Governments). > >> > >> Toerless > >> > >>> geoff > >>> > >>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a > >> spectacular > >>>>>>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 > >>>>>>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there > >> could > >>>> be > >>>>>>> very little working from home, no online classes for students > >> stuck at > >>>>>>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more > >>>> loneliness, > >>>>>> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every > >>>>>> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > >>>>>> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, > >> software, > >>>>>> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition > >> Television > >>>>>> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The > >> Great > >>>>>> Work. > >>>>> > >>>>> Long before that, Licklider wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing > >>>> machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting > >>>> partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process > >> data > >>>> in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know > >>>> today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, > >>>> https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > >>>>> > >>>>> And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: > >>>> Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 > >> ( > >>>> > >> https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network > >>>> ). > >>>>> > >>>>> Miles Fidelman > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > >>>> > >>>> ???It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but > >> on that > >>>> account we shall be more attached to one another.??? > >>>> > >>>> And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > >>>> > >>>> "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half > >> foot > >>>> long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME???? > >> -Dr. > >>>> Frederick Frankenstein > >>>> > >>>> -Don > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > > current postal address: > > Google, LLC > > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > > Reston, VA 20190 > > > > After July 1, 2020: > > Google, LLC > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > > Reston, VA 20190 > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- --- tte at cs.fau.de From dhc at dcrocker.net Mon Jul 6 13:24:03 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 13:24:03 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> > Bob Kahn said something along the lines that email on the ARPANET was > something that was not planned but kinda "evolved" by "accident" -- i.e. > was not something that was a part of the conception/technical idea in the > inception/purpose of the creation/need for the ARPANET. The Licklider/Taylor 1968 paper, The Computer as a Communication Device doesn't explicitly mention electronic mail. But it does, arguably, imply it. Papers like this never offer much low-level detail -- and I class the specifics of what we now call email as low level. What specific details they do offer often seem quaint, when compared against the eventual reality. But the vision sets a framework for thinking and a direction of pursue. It tends to dictate certain types of activities and outcomes, no matter what the eventual implementations looks like. In that regard, I'd consider messaging, like email, to be a strong implication of their vision work. Also, since email was an integral part of the FTP effort in 1971, it's difficult to call it an accident. On the other hand, Ray's opportunistic cleverness definitely /was/ accidental. Especially as compared against the more elaborate (cumbersome) approach others were considering. But again, that's a matter of the low-level detail. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From york at isoc.org Mon Jul 6 13:49:35 2020 From: york at isoc.org (Dan York) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:49:35 +0000 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> Message-ID: <1FE7356F-6860-4F6D-8B43-029B6363C81E@isoc.org> Scott, > On Jul 6, 2020, at 3:08 PM, Scott O. Bradner via Internet-history wrote: > > enum is well used inside telephone companies to do number mapping (or so I'm told) Yes, ENUM is heavily used within companies involved with VoIP. In a non-public setting, it is often called one of ?private ENUM?, ?carrier ENUM?, or ?infrastructure ENUM?, with different nuances. It is part of what is used in ?voice peering?. Before joining ISOC in 2011, I worked for five years at a company providing voice application services and private ENUM was a critical component of our call routing infrastructure. > but the public enum died because of privacy concerns Yes, that was what I saw as one the major issues. Privacy of both user information and also carrier info. There were, for instance, some scripts out there that would walk an entire ENUM tree in DNS, capture all the addresses, and then feed those into another script that would then connect to those addresses to deliver voice messages. I don?t remember their exact names, but I do remember researching what these various scripts did. Separately, because DNS queries are public, there was the exposure of customer information if someone could be in the right place to watch the queries. For those reasons and more, public ENUM never took off in the way it was originally envisioned. Regards, Dan (who was a big fan of the idea of public ENUM back when he worked with SIP / VoIP more) From craig at tereschau.net Mon Jul 6 13:59:58 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 14:59:58 -0600 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:24 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > On the other hand, Ray's opportunistic cleverness definitely /was/ > accidental. Especially as compared against the more elaborate > (cumbersome) approach others were considering. But again, that's a > matter of the low-level detail. > I think this undersells Ray's insight/genius. Sometimes what makes something go from intellectual concept to reality is someone figuring out how to make the something simple. And Ray found a way to make email simple, and easy to use, and it exploded. And then it exploded again when Vittal created MSG and "Answer" [modern Reply]. Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jul 6 14:44:25 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 6 Jul 2020 17:44:25 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20200706214425.D8FE61C5E51C@ary.qy> In article <349e3546-738f-524c-235e-8a62b7113486 at dcrocker.net> you write: >(People often miss the wonderfulness of the MX record, and, more >generally, separating names from addresses from routes. Someone should >write about that...) If only we knew where to find the guy who wrote RFC 974. R's, John From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jul 6 14:51:23 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 6 Jul 2020 17:51:23 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <20200706201122.GO13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> In article <20200706201122.GO13952 at faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote: >On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 03:08:10PM -0400, Scott O. Bradner wrote: >> enum is well used inside telephone companies to do number mapping (or so I'm told) >> but the public enum died because of privacy concerns > >Probably too simplistic. Should not have been a reason for all those >E164 for companies tht are public knowledge (like their 'www' domain name). A system that works only haslf the time is for most purposes worse than no system at all. Since they had to build some other system to deal with phone numbers that have privacy concerns, they might as well use that system for everything. >I would guess that the complexity of SIP/ICE/STUN/TURN for p2p connections >played a much more key role. SIP for point to point works fine if you know the address. From gnu at toad.com Mon Jul 6 15:26:43 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 15:26:43 -0700 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> References: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> Message-ID: <20260.1594074403@hop.toad.com> John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > SIP for point to point works fine if you know the address. Then why does every SIP client I try to use, demand that I "register" with some server, before it will let me make any point-to-point phone calls? John From tte at cs.fau.de Mon Jul 6 15:31:10 2020 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 00:31:10 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> References: <20200706201122.GO13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> Message-ID: <20200706223110.GQ13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:51:23PM -0400, John Levine wrote: > >Probably too simplistic. Should not have been a reason for all those > >E164 for companies tht are public knowledge (like their 'www' domain name). > > A system that works only haslf the time is for most purposes worse > than no system at all. Since they had to build some other system to > deal with phone numbers that have privacy concerns, they might as well > use that system for everything. IPv6 addresses also come with privacy concerns, yet they are deployed and workarounds are made for privacy. Besides, the privacy issues would have been (IMHO) easy to resolve. > >I would guess that the complexity of SIP/ICE/STUN/TURN for p2p connections > >played a much more key role. > > SIP for point to point works fine if you know the address. Not if a side is behind NAT/FW. STUN/TURN/ICE exist for a reason. Even with IPv6, multi-homing requires or benefits from some subset. Lets see when we will get ubiquitous peer-to-peer media, end-to-end encrypted without the rendezvous service seeing the media or knowing the keys. In reality there is a lot more desire to perpass than privacy behind what happened. Cheers Toerless From dhc at dcrocker.net Mon Jul 6 15:55:28 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:55:28 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> On 7/6/2020 1:59 PM, Craig Partridge wrote: > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:24 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history > > wrote: > > > > On the other hand, Ray's opportunistic cleverness definitely /was/ > accidental.? Especially as compared against the more elaborate > (cumbersome) approach others were considering.? But again, that's a > matter of the low-level detail. > > > I think this undersells Ray's insight/genius. I consider "opportunistic cleverness" to be high praise. Besides that, my experience growing up in that environment, where pretty much everyone would likely be called genius by regular folk, was that no one used that word. I quickly noted that they simply said someone was clever... > Sometimes what makes > something go from intellectual concept to reality is someone figuring > out how to make the something simple.? And Ray found a way to make email > simple, and easy to use, and it exploded.? And then it exploded again > when Vittal created MSG and "Answer" [modern Reply]. Yup. What has been interesting is seeing that some people seem to naturally gravitate towards powerful simplicity. From later discussions with Ray, it was clear to me that his process, back in 1971, of reacting to the surrounding discussions that were proposing a rather complicated, cumbersome email system -- including printing messages onto paper and delivering them to people's desks -- was not an elaborate sequence of thinking through a set of issues, formulating careful design considerations, and engineering an integrated system. Rather it was a simple moment of the insight you cite: Just make what really was a tiny increment, linking two existing mechanisms of messaging and network file copying. And I don't undersell the importance of that at all. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From sob at sobco.com Mon Jul 6 16:10:51 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 19:10:51 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <20200706223110.GQ13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200706201122.GO13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> <20200706223110.GQ13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: <5401A28C-E24E-4290-9B38-BD9397427158@sobco.com> > On Jul 6, 2020, at 6:31 PM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 05:51:23PM -0400, John Levine wrote: >>> Probably too simplistic. Should not have been a reason for all those >>> E164 for companies tht are public knowledge (like their 'www' domain name). >> >> A system that works only haslf the time is for most purposes worse >> than no system at all. Since they had to build some other system to >> deal with phone numbers that have privacy concerns, they might as well >> use that system for everything. > > IPv6 addresses also come with privacy concerns, yet they are deployed > and workarounds are made for privacy. Besides, the privacy issues would > have been (IMHO) easy to resolve. yup - see RFC 3041 Scott From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Jul 6 17:00:46 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:00:46 +1200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <20260.1594074403@hop.toad.com> References: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> <20260.1594074403@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <359ce387-0dd6-7fed-2c3b-23ef56413076@gmail.com> Doesn't "register" have something to do with "pay"? Regards Brian On 07-Jul-20 10:26, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > John Levine via Internet-history wrote: >> SIP for point to point works fine if you know the address. > > Then why does every SIP client I try to use, demand that I "register" > with some server, before it will let me make any point-to-point phone > calls? > > John > > From woody at pch.net Mon Jul 6 17:06:55 2020 From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:06:55 +0200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <359ce387-0dd6-7fed-2c3b-23ef56413076@gmail.com> References: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> <20260.1594074403@hop.toad.com> <359ce387-0dd6-7fed-2c3b-23ef56413076@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 7, 2020, at 2:00 AM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Doesn't "register" have something to do with "pay"? No, it has to do with being able to receive calls without sitting on a static IP address or depending on dynamic DNS to find you. -Bill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 6 19:03:59 2020 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:03:59 -0600 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: References: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> <20260.1594074403@hop.toad.com> <359ce387-0dd6-7fed-2c3b-23ef56413076@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74d9d9d9-322c-65c6-1d62-fbcd741ec843@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/6/20 6:06 PM, Bill Woodcock via Internet-history wrote: > No, it has to do with being able to receive calls without sitting on > a static IP address or depending on dynamic DNS to find you. Think something more akin to the SIP protocol's version of "here's where I am now" (with authentication to say that I am who I say). Much like the various dynamic DNS clients do to update the name to dynamic IP mapping. It can also include some presence / state information. If you're busy, or no device can ring, send the call directly to voice mail. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From gnu at toad.com Mon Jul 6 21:50:27 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2020 21:50:27 -0700 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <6070.1594097427@hop.toad.com> Bill Woodcock wrote: > > Doesn't "register" have something to do with "pay"? > > No, it has to do with being able to receive calls without sitting on a > static IP address or depending on dynamic DNS to find you. So why doesn't it let me *initiate* a call without needing to register with a server in order to do something I don't want to do, *receive* a call? And why does it assume that the initiator has no static IP address and no dynamic DNS name? It's as if the telnet command wouldn't let you connect out to a server, without first demanding that you set up a telnet server on the machine you are coming from. It just makes no sense. John From woody at pch.net Mon Jul 6 22:02:07 2020 From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:02:07 +0200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <6070.1594097427@hop.toad.com> References: <6070.1594097427@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <3B4EBD00-9EB5-4EF1-BBAD-26276DE12D04@pch.net> > On Jul 7, 2020, at 6:50 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > Bill Woodcock wrote: >>> Doesn't "register" have something to do with "pay"? >> >> No, it has to do with being able to receive calls without sitting on a >> static IP address or depending on dynamic DNS to find you. > > So why doesn't it let me *initiate* a call without needing to register > with a server in order to do something I don't want to do, *receive* a > call? > > And why does it assume that the initiator has no static IP address and > no dynamic DNS name? Because that was H.323. The entire purpose of SIP was to overcome exactly those limitations of H.323. If you want to use H.323, use H.323 or write your own RTP implementation that doesn?t use SIP.. If you want to be able to talk to people who are mobile, use SIP. This question is exactly the same as asking why IMAP clients refuse to just speak SMTP directly to each other. Of course it would be _possible_ to write an SMTP MUA, but what would be the point? The three people in the world who would each use it once to show that they could are all perfectly happy writing their email by opening a connection to port 25 and mashing keys anyway. -Bill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From paf at frobbit.se Mon Jul 6 22:20:25 2020 From: paf at frobbit.se (Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 07:20:25 +0200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <3B4EBD00-9EB5-4EF1-BBAD-26276DE12D04@pch.net> References: <6070.1594097427@hop.toad.com> <3B4EBD00-9EB5-4EF1-BBAD-26276DE12D04@pch.net> Message-ID: <472F5A95-B646-4137-902B-B41AB413935C@frobbit.se> In general we are bad at "client" to "client" communication. We have very few such protocols. One of the end points we call "server" and we are much better on "server" to "client" communication. This by specifying the protocol to use between the client and the server. To enable "client" to "client" communication we inject a "server" as a broker between the two. The FTP server, the SMTP server, the SIP server (etc). The communication is then "client" to "server" to "client". Most of the protocols that I claim have succeeded have then turned into an architecture that is "client" - "server" - "server" - "client" which enables anyone that wants to set up a server. Unfortunately this have turned back to the silos again. You can set up your own SMTP server for mail, or SIP server for voice, or HTTP server for web, but not your own Facebook server, or Twitter server or... Patrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From woody at pch.net Mon Jul 6 22:20:22 2020 From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:20:22 +0200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <74d9d9d9-322c-65c6-1d62-fbcd741ec843@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20200706215123.A81F91C5E608@ary.qy> <20260.1594074403@hop.toad.com> <359ce387-0dd6-7fed-2c3b-23ef56413076@gmail.com> <74d9d9d9-322c-65c6-1d62-fbcd741ec843@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 7, 2020, at 4:03 AM, Grant Taylor via Internet-history wrote: >> No, it has to do with being able to receive calls without sitting on a static IP address or depending on dynamic DNS to find you. > > Think something more akin to... I have no difficulty _imagining_ the lobotomized version of SIP that you?re describing. I was answering the question posed, which was whether the reason for its existence had something to do with commercial models. As one of the people who was there at the time, I was able to answer that it did not, at least not in the sense that the question was posed. > It can also include... Why are you asking these questions? Are you proposing to actually write this? All this is exactly analogous to asking why the postal mail system delivers to your door, rather than requiring you and the sender to be in the same post office at the same time to hand off mail. Sure, you _could_ do that, and prior to the development of SIP it was necessary to do that, but since that?s exactly what solution that SIP contributes to the problem this is akin to asking a postal delivery person why they can?t get out of the way and let you pick up and deliver your own mail. They could, but it would belie their purpose. -Bill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From jhlowry at mac.com Tue Jul 7 04:08:42 2020 From: jhlowry at mac.com (John Lowry) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 07:08:42 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2125C2E4-5622-497F-B167-CD12885BF59F@mac.com> You made me think of UUCP bang paths. :-) > On Jul 5, 2020, at 11:27 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > > ?craig, oh please, don't "forget" what our email addresses would have been > ????? > [copy and pasted from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.400 page], viz.: > > An X.400 address consists of several elements, including: > > - C (Country name) > - ADMD (Administration Management Domain, short-form A), usually a > public mail service provider > - PRMD (Private Management Domain, short-form P) > - O (Organization name) > - OU (Organizational Unit Names), OU is equivalent to OU0, can have OU1, > OU2... > - G (Given name) > - I (Initials) > - S (Surname) > > The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email > addresses should be written (for instance on a business card) or even > whether the field identifiers should be upper or lower case, or what > character sets were allowed. RFC 1685 > specified > one encoding, based on a 1993 draft of ITU-T Recommendation F.401, which > looked like: > "G=Harald;S=Alvestrand;O=Uninett;PRMD=Uninett;A=;C=no" > > On Sun, Jul 5, 2020 at 3:28 PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there could be >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students stuck at >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more >> loneliness, >>> no way to stop rumors and get scientific information to ordinary people, >>> etc. >> >> Just for fun, as alternative history is simply about fun, we probably can >> envision a world without the Internet. The CCITT and ITU worked very hard >> to create one. >> >> So we'd have whatever the descendant of the videophone is. I imagine we'd >> have three jacks in some wall outlets: voice, video, and data (cf. what >> they tried to do for ATM). Your cable modem would be similar (indeed, it >> is now -- coax for video, phone jack for phone, Ethernet jack for data). >> Data service would be slow -- say 1.5Mbps and you'd pay a premium to >> originate video. >> >> Computers would have still gotten incredibly fast, so we'd have apps that >> combined the inputs from the three jacks on the computer to give us video >> conferencing with shared documents and such. >> >> I don't know what social media would look like. My guess is YouTube >> doesn't exist (the conditions that enabled YouTube would not be present). >> >> Charges for videoconferencing would be high -- document sharing and joint >> editing would be expensive and you'd be much less efficient than you'd be >> in your regular office, which was wired with some sort of switched local >> data sharing network (think Netware -- which remember, was doing better >> than the Internet for part of the 1980s). >> >> Craig >> >> -- >> ***** >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> mailing lists. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From cdel at firsthand.net Tue Jul 7 04:54:25 2020 From: cdel at firsthand.net (Christian) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:54:25 +0100 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> Message-ID: public enum was too public for telephony carriers. They like to disguise their routing partners. They want to control "their" numbers. Porting numbers requires dips that get remunerated and so this was another incentive to keep control of porting directly. privacy concerns for "users" was the least of it really. Although it was a handy stick. But they like enum. Itis an excellent mapping service. Carriers use it tightly coupled to their switches and gateway interconnects between SS7 and IP worlds - under their control. This is sometimes referred to as infrastructure or iENUM or even carrier ENUM. There are some semantic distinctions within those terms. I setup several such gateways between 2005 and 2012. On 06/07/2020 20:08, Scott O. Bradner via Internet-history wrote: > enum is well used inside telephone companies to do number mapping (or so I'm told) > but the public enum died because of privacy concerns > > Scott > > >> On Jul 6, 2020, at 3:03 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ENUM was supposed to help with that mapping but... >> v >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:59 PM Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 07:56:56AM -1000, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow >>> via Internet-history wrote: >>>> and let's not forget that in 1967 there was >>>> The Science of Microelectronics >>>> in *The President's Analyst, viz.: * >>>> "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" >>>> (for which there is an awesome demo clip) of at: >>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 >>>> >>>> for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D >>> TPC.INT >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Phone_Company >>> >>> Interesting to see how E164 is still alive and kicking, primarily now >>> (IMHO) for >>> SMS authentication and not telephony anymore, but we still do not have good >>> mapping between E164 and Internet name spaces. I guess its part of the >>> great >>> divide (ISOC vs. Governments). >>> >>> Toerless >>> >>>> geoff >>>> >>>> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history < >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>>> On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a >>> spectacular >>>>>>>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the COVID-19 >>>>>>>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, there >>> could >>>>> be >>>>>>>> very little working from home, no online classes for students >>> stuck at >>>>>>>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much more >>>>> loneliness, >>>>>>> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to every >>>>>>> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a >>>>>>> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, >>> software, >>>>>>> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition >>> Television >>>>>>> as well as other media as yet barely imagined." He called it The >>> Great >>>>>>> Work. >>>>>> Long before that, Licklider wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and computing >>>>> machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that the resulting >>>>> partnership will think as no human brain has ever thought and process >>> data >>>>> in a way not approached by the information-handling machines we know >>>>> today." (In "Man-Computer Symbiosis," 1960, >>>>> https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) >>>>>> And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM FOR: >>>>> Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer Network," in 1963 >>> ( >>> https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network >>>>> ). >>>>>> Miles Fidelman >>>>> >>>>> Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: >>>>> >>>>> ???It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but >>> on that >>>>> account we shall be more attached to one another.??? >>>>> >>>>> And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: >>>>> >>>>> "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a half >>> foot >>>>> long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE TELLING ME???? >>> -Dr. >>>>> Frederick Frankenstein >>>>> >>>>> -Don >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >> >> -- >> current postal address: >> Google, LLC >> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor >> Reston, VA 20190 >> >> After July 1, 2020: >> Google, LLC >> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 >> Reston, VA 20190 >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Christian de Larrinaga ---------------------- From el at lisse.NA Tue Jul 7 05:00:39 2020 From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:00:39 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <2125C2E4-5622-497F-B167-CD12885BF59F@mac.com> References: <2125C2E4-5622-497F-B167-CD12885BF59F@mac.com> Message-ID: <142e69a1-aef0-07df-239b-6a2c1ada976f@lisse.NA> While I think X.400 was a design by committee it surely made sense to the committee :-)-O. At the time :-)-O I remember talking to senior staff at the computer center of the Technical University Aachen (RWTH) where I studied medicine in the 80's and was playing with BITNET and its connections to other networks (there was no Internet in Germany yet). The guy was convinced that X.400 was the way of the future, and I seem to recall that this was related to the RWTH being involved with the DFN (German Research Network). Given that we have QR codes and address books, the hyperventilating about X.400 addresses is amusing :-)-O. If events had not taken over we would all be used to nice interfaces of mail programs where one could enter the elements in a nice way to be available for easy use. And while el at lisse.NA is of course preferable to G=Eberhard;S=Lisse;O=Lisse;P=Lisse;A=Paratus;C=na not only for unwieldiness, but also for provider independence (DNS), I am most unsure how store and forward would have scaled to current volumes :-)-O el On 07/07/2020 13:08, John Lowry via Internet-history wrote: > You made me think of UUCP bang paths. :-) > > >> On Jul 5, 2020, at 11:27 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via >> Internet-history wrote: >> >> craig, oh please, don't "forget" what our email addresses would have >> been ????? >> [copy and pasted from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.400 page], >> viz.: >> >> An X.400 address consists of several elements, including: >> >> - C (Country name) >> - ADMD (Administration Management Domain, short-form A), usually a >> public mail service provider >> - PRMD (Private Management Domain, short-form P) >> - O (Organization name) >> - OU (Organizational Unit Names), OU is equivalent to OU0, can have OU1, >> OU2... >> - G (Given name) >> - I (Initials) >> - S (Surname) >> >> The standards themselves originally did not specify how these email >> addresses should be written (for instance on a business card) or even >> whether the field identifiers should be upper or lower case, or what >> character sets were allowed. RFC 1685 >> specified one encoding, based >> on a 1993 draft of ITU-T Recommendation F.401, which looked like: >> "G=Harald;S=Alvestrand;O=Uninett;PRMD=Uninett;A=;C=no" [...] From paf at frobbit.se Tue Jul 7 05:55:39 2020 From: paf at frobbit.se (Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 14:55:39 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <20200706185848.GM13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> <440E459C-F984-41CF-931A-20571AD27BF6@sobco.com> Message-ID: <98DFAD0F-B7F4-4426-AB18-C2C56172FEBD@frobbit.se> On 7 Jul 2020, at 13:54, Christian via Internet-history wrote: > They want to control "their" numbers. Exactly! Even if end users by law could get their numbers ported, having the control in such a way that the end user could control this via DNS directly, by running their own DNS for example, was just "too much". Patrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Tue Jul 7 09:21:35 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:21:35 -0400 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <8c228c9a-f6b8-8b35-e65f-db3ec966f753@meetinghouse.net> On 7/6/20 6:55 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 7/6/2020 1:59 PM, Craig Partridge wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:24 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >> ??? On the other hand, Ray's opportunistic cleverness definitely /was/ >> ??? accidental.? Especially as compared against the more elaborate >> ??? (cumbersome) approach others were considering.? But again, that's a >> ??? matter of the low-level detail. >> >> >> I think this undersells Ray's insight/genius. > > I consider "opportunistic cleverness" to be high praise. > > Besides that, my experience growing up in that environment, where > pretty much everyone would likely be called genius by regular folk, > was that no one used that word.? I quickly noted that they simply said > someone was clever... > > >> Sometimes what makes something go from intellectual concept to >> reality is someone figuring out how to make the something simple.? >> And Ray found a way to make email simple, and easy to use, and it >> exploded.? And then it exploded again when Vittal created MSG and >> "Answer" [modern Reply]. > > Yup. > > What has been interesting is seeing that some people seem to naturally > gravitate towards powerful simplicity. > > From later discussions with Ray, it was clear to me that his process, > back in 1971, of reacting to the surrounding discussions that were > proposing a rather complicated, cumbersome email system -- including > printing messages onto paper and delivering them to people's desks -- > was not an elaborate sequence of thinking through a set of issues, > formulating careful design considerations, and engineering an > integrated system. > > Rather it was a simple moment of the insight you cite: Just make what > really was a tiny increment, linking two existing mechanisms of > messaging and network file copying. > > And I don't undersell the importance of that at all. > I still remember arriving at MIT, as a freshman, in 1971 - got an account on the AI Lab ITS machine, and then a month or so later, Ray Tomlinson invents email as we know it, and a few months later, it's everywhere.? The next four years were a front row seat to the ARPANET changing everything - virtual teams & communities, e-publishing, e-learning, e-commerce (RFPs, proposals, reports via email), governance models (the predecessors of the IETF), ... Lots of trial and error, but INSPIRED trial & error. Also.. don't underestimate the power of simple, yet powerful, concepts - just witness the continued dominance of email & email lists, vs. all kind of more structured communications tools.? Connectivity & Interoperability, then stop. Cheers, Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Tue Jul 7 09:25:51 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:25:51 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <42253005-87d9-d49d-f497-04c19277a54a@meetinghouse.net> "You know, one thing I learned from my patients... they all hate the phone company. It's interesting; even the stock holders of the phone company hate the phone company!" On 7/6/20 1:56 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote: > and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > The Science of Microelectronics > in /The President's Analyst, viz.: / > "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > (for which there is an awesome?demo clip) of at: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > > for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D > > geoff > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history > > wrote: > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history > > wrote: > > > > On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > > >>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a > spectacular > >>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the > COVID-19 > >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, > there could be > >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students > stuck at > >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much > more loneliness, > >> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to > every > >> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > >> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, > software, > >> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition > Television > >> as well as other media as yet barely imagined."? He called it > The Great > >> Work. > > > > Long before that, Licklider wrote: > > > > "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and > computing machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that > the resulting partnership will think as no human brain has ever > thought and process data in a way not approached by the > information-handling machines we know today."? (In "Man-Computer > Symbiosis," 1960, > https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > > > > And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM > FOR: Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer > Network," in 1963 > (https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network). > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > > ?It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but > on that account we shall be more attached to one another.? > > And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > > "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a > half foot long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE > TELLING ME?? -Dr. Frederick Frankenstein > > -Don > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > > -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From tte at cs.fau.de Tue Jul 7 10:49:17 2020 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 19:49:17 +0200 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <42253005-87d9-d49d-f497-04c19277a54a@meetinghouse.net> References: <23475.1594047178@hop.toad.com> <42253005-87d9-d49d-f497-04c19277a54a@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <20200707174917.GD13952@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> On Tue, Jul 07, 2020 at 12:25:51PM -0400, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: > "You know, one thing I learned from my patients... they all hate the phone > company. It's interesting; even the stock holders of the phone company hate > the phone company!" For northern california this is historic. Our PUC absorbs all hate away from TPC. Alas no comparable good movie about it AFAIK. I was hoping for "Ashes to Ashes", but it seems we are getting a re-run of "Rise of the Phoenix". i derail. > On 7/6/20 1:56 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote: > > and let's not forget that in 1967 there was > > The Science of Microelectronics > > in /The President's Analyst, viz.: / > > "the Cerebrum Communicator or the CC for short" > > (for which there is an awesome?demo clip) of at: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuwF3dRJiS8 > > > > for anyone who has not seen this seminal film, it's a MUST SEE! :D > > > > geoff > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 7:07 AM Don Hopkins via Internet-history > > > > wrote: > > > > > On Jul 6, 2020, at 17:25, Miles Fidelman via Internet-history > > > > wrote: > > > > > > On 7/6/20 10:52 AM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > >>> I answered him that thirty years of the internet has been a > > spectacular > > >>> time of development. Can you imagine the word fighting the > > COVID-19 > > >>> pandemic without the internet? If there were no internet, > > there could be > > >>> very little working from home, no online classes for students > > stuck at > > >>> home, no video communication with family and friends, much > > more loneliness, > > >> In 1992 John Perry Barlow called for "connecting every mind to > > every > > >> other mind in full-duplex broadband. ... The creation of ... a > > >> ubiquitous digital web, [for] ... telephone service, e-mail, > > software, > > >> faxes, ... 'video postcards', and, in time, High Definition > > Television > > >> as well as other media as yet barely imagined."? He called it > > The Great > > >> Work. > > > > > > Long before that, Licklider wrote: > > > > > > "The hope is that, in not too many years, human brains and > > computing machines will be coupled together very tightly, and that > > the resulting partnership will think as no human brain has ever > > thought and process data in a way not approached by the > > information-handling machines we know today."? (In "Man-Computer > > Symbiosis," 1960, > > https://groups.csail.mit.edu/medg/people/psz/Licklider.html) > > > > > > And, of course, he's the one who wrote the famous "MEMORANDUM > > FOR: Members and Affiliates of the Intergalactic Computer > > Network," in 1963 > > (https://www.kurzweilai.net/memorandum-for-members-and-affiliates-of-the-intergalactic-computer-network). > > > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > > > > Even longer before that, Mary Shelley wrote: > > > > ???It is true, we shall be monsters, cut off from all the world; but > > on that account we shall be more attached to one another.??? > > > > And a bit later, Mel Brooks wrote: > > > > "Are you saying that I put an abnormal brain into a seven and a > > half foot long, fifty-four inch wide GORILLA? IS THAT WHAT YOU'RE > > TELLING ME???? -Dr. Frederick Frankenstein > > > > -Don > > > > -- Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > > > > -- > > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > > living as The Truth is True From fenwick.mckelvey at concordia.ca Tue Jul 7 11:35:04 2020 From: fenwick.mckelvey at concordia.ca (Fenwick Mckelvey) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:35:04 +0000 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8761AB9E-6215-4F04-9792-EE16BF999A0D@concordia.ca> Hi all, For those following the thread, you might find parts of my book Internet Daemons interesting as I trace some of legacy of the Interface Message Processor from ARPANET to today. There is much more that I could capture myself, but the book at least situates ARPANET as important moment for building computers into communication infrastructure and tries to follow the repercussions. I find the history of networking devices rather interesting and still feel like there is more to be written on the subject. I learned a lot from Dave Walden's website, who has some great resources on his website: https://walden-family.com/bbn/ FWIW, the book is published by the University of Minnesota Press and open access at https://www.internetdaemons.com. Always enjoy the discussion on this listserv. Be good, Fen ?On 2020-07-06, 2:51 PM, "Internet-history on behalf of Jack Haverty via Internet-history" wrote: Attention This email originates from outside the concordia.ca domain. // Ce courriel provient de l'exterieur du domaine de concordia.ca For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from brainstorm to reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded me. So a question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an Internet-related idea from concept decades ago to reality today? There's a specific idea that I have in mind. Back in the early 70s, Licklider ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I worked at MIT. Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning subroutines and data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, paragraphs, and documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs. These "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic computer network". Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that sure sounds pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write libraries of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized data structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them together into sentences, aka programs, to do useful work. Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called "Automatic Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood for something but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was well-documented (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a searchable database for use by subsequent programmers. But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly language, text-only terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET. None of this was especially portable and has long since disappeared. Fast forward to 2020. I recently stumbled across a technology called NodeRed, somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components which do interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's terminology. The programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the pieces you need, and then "wire" them together to create functional programming. You create your program by literally drawing a picture. The Internet provides the necessary communications substrate on which all these actors perform. People can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. IMHO, Lick would have loved this. I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation programs, e.g., stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger. Or send me email when something unusual is detected. Or almost anything else you can think of. It really is very simple to use. I can see the parallels between Lick's 70s vision and today's actual implementations. Instead of a PDP-10 and ARPANET, today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B. There were lots of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, etc. There were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to careers. Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the appearance of NodeRed 50 years later? Or was it some totally different evolution from someone's else's similar vision? Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces of the evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use? How did something like NodeRed come from vision to reality? /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From karl at cavebear.com Tue Jul 7 14:46:41 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:46:41 -0700 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <472F5A95-B646-4137-902B-B41AB413935C@frobbit.se> References: <6070.1594097427@hop.toad.com> <3B4EBD00-9EB5-4EF1-BBAD-26276DE12D04@pch.net> <472F5A95-B646-4137-902B-B41AB413935C@frobbit.se> Message-ID: <7498b3fd-cc55-2de3-3c56-2c89e430289e@cavebear.com> There are two topics in this thread: - SIP peer-to-peer - Enum With regard to the former: One of the products I build is a tool that "does bad things" to traffic.? (Things like drops, jitter, packet resequencing, etc - in other words, a descendant of Jon's idea of a "flakeway" for use in the old TCP bakeoffs.)? For testing I often need a convenient traffic flow that is easy to evaluate for the impact of these "bad things".? I've found peer-to-peer SIP phones quite useful for this as it is often quite easy to hear the effects of those "bad things" (most SIP phones don't like the voice packets being jittered, or worse, re-ordered.? The audio artifacts are pretty obvious.) (BTW, once I did a demo at the iLabs at an Interop show in which I introduced new words into a SIP call.? It wasn't hard.? I was considering going another step and see if I could detect occurrences of the word "not" and elide them from the conversation.? It seemed feasible but more work than I was then willing to put into the project.? The lesson is to make sure that conversations are encrypted.) As Patrik F. suggests, some SIP phone software wants to use a SIP server in the middle.? But not all.? For instance, I use Grandstream phones for testing because they are happy to operate without a SIP server in the middle (or DHCP or much else.) As for Enum - that has always scared me.? I am made nervous by the notion that DNS clients would evaluate j-random regular expressions found in NAPTR records.?? That strikes me not much different than the security problems we have had with web browsers evaluating random Javascript fed to them by websites. ??? ??? --karl-- From johnl at iecc.com Tue Jul 7 19:41:08 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 7 Jul 2020 22:41:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: <2125C2E4-5622-497F-B167-CD12885BF59F@mac.com> Message-ID: <20200708024108.D70921C68162@ary.qy> In article <2125C2E4-5622-497F-B167-CD12885BF59F at mac.com> you write: >You made me think of UUCP bang paths. :-) Not really. Bang paths actually worked. Regards, ima!johnl >> On Jul 5, 2020, at 11:27 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history > wrote: >> >> ?craig, oh please, don't "forget" what our email addresses would have been >> ????? >> [copy and pasted from the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X.400 page], viz.: >> >> An X.400 address consists of several elements, including: >> >> - C (Country name) >> - ADMD (Administration Management Domain, short-form A), usually a >> public mail service provider >> - PRMD (Private Management Domain, short-form P) >> - O (Organization name) >> - OU (Organizational Unit Names), OU is equivalent to OU0, can have OU1, >> OU2... >> - G (Given name) >> - I (Initials) >> - S (Surname) From paf at frobbit.se Tue Jul 7 22:30:58 2020 From: paf at frobbit.se (Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 07:30:58 +0200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <7498b3fd-cc55-2de3-3c56-2c89e430289e@cavebear.com> References: <6070.1594097427@hop.toad.com> <3B4EBD00-9EB5-4EF1-BBAD-26276DE12D04@pch.net> <472F5A95-B646-4137-902B-B41AB413935C@frobbit.se> <7498b3fd-cc55-2de3-3c56-2c89e430289e@cavebear.com> Message-ID: On 7 Jul 2020, at 23:46, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > As for Enum - that has always scared me.? I am made nervous by the notion that DNS clients would evaluate j-random regular expressions found in NAPTR records.?? That strikes me not much different than the security problems we have had with web browsers evaluating random Javascript fed to them by websites. I must explain that a. I was probably having something weird for dinner when I came up with this, but b. People really want this feature. That said, when ENUM was evaluated last time, I tried to change the NAPTR record to instead use URI resource records. There was extremely tough pushback as regex was in use for "infrastructure ENUM". The URI resource record was still defined, and I personally think the best solution for "E.164 numbers" is a prefix-based DNS record like URI and then a well defined target (like a URI). Patrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From johnl at iecc.com Wed Jul 8 14:14:42 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 8 Jul 2020 17:14:42 -0400 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <7498b3fd-cc55-2de3-3c56-2c89e430289e@cavebear.com> Message-ID: <20200708211442.CC5EE1C6DB84@ary.qy> In article <7498b3fd-cc55-2de3-3c56-2c89e430289e at cavebear.com> you write: >As for Enum - that has always scared me.? I am made nervous by the >notion that DNS clients would evaluate j-random regular expressions >found in NAPTR records.?? That strikes me not much different than the >security problems we have had with web browsers evaluating random >Javascript fed to them by websites. I don't understand this concern. Even the most complicated regex is only a pattern that either matches or doesn't, with well understood mathematical properties. It doesn't have loops or subroutines, and since we have fifty years of experience with regex matching, we know how to handle them efficiently. It's certainly easy enough to write a regex that is wrong, but not one that is dangerous. R's, John PS: If you haven't kept up with the literature, current regex matchers generally don't complle them into 7094 machine code any more. From steffen at sdaoden.eu Wed Jul 8 14:29:54 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 23:29:54 +0200 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <20200708211442.CC5EE1C6DB84@ary.qy> References: <20200708211442.CC5EE1C6DB84@ary.qy> Message-ID: <20200708212954.tU-ar%steffen@sdaoden.eu> John Levine via Internet-history wrote in <20200708211442.CC5EE1C6DB84 at ary.qy>: |In article <7498b3fd-cc55-2de3-3c56-2c89e430289e at cavebear.com> you write: |>As for Enum - that has always scared me.? I am made nervous by the |>notion that DNS clients would evaluate j-random regular expressions |>found in NAPTR records.?? That strikes me not much different than the |>security problems we have had with web browsers evaluating random |>Javascript fed to them by websites. | |I don't understand this concern. Even the most complicated regex is |only a pattern that either matches or doesn't, with well understood |mathematical properties. It doesn't have loops or subroutines, and |since we have fifty years of experience with regex matching, we know |how to handle them efficiently. | |It's certainly easy enough to write a regex that is wrong, but not one |that is dangerous. We have had a lot of quality of service regex security adversories. The last i remember affected some FTP servers, at least. As a workaround they now count occurrences of * and limit that (to 3 the most). |R's, |John | |PS: If you haven't kept up with the literature, current regex matchers |generally don't complle them into 7094 machine code any more. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From geoff at iconia.com Wed Jul 8 15:12:11 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:12:11 -1000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D Message-ID: was reading an article on a wireless home Internet service https://www.lightreading.com/mobile/5g/inside-t-mobiles-new-home-internet-business/a/d-id/754548 that referenced the Internet with respect to "plugging in" Toasters: EXCERPT: *Internet from a toaster*Unlike some fixed wireless services that require professional technicians to install receivers on the outside of a customers' building, T-Mobile's Home Internet is delivered in the mail, and customers simply plug in the router to access service. (The router connects to a nearby T-Mobile tower via LTE for backhaul, and broadcasts a WiFi signal for in-home coverage.) "The installation was as easy as plugging in a toaster," Taylor wrote. "One nice benefit, that we've already found useful is the included 5200mAh battery backup that's in the router. Our house lost power one night, and we still had our home Internet, so we could continue working on our phones/laptops. This was extremely helpful for someone like me that works from home and needs reliable Internet."... [...] this recalls of/when in 1989/1990 a Toaster (as well as a crane) was connected *TO* the Internet: https://www.livinginternet.com/i/ia_myths_toast.htm -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From karl at cavebear.com Thu Jul 9 00:36:46 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 00:36:46 -0700 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8c9097e7-11b2-9224-da07-a11fd5f777b2@cavebear.com> The original *two* internet toasters were by John Romkey and Simon Hacket.? We showed them at the Interop show in San Jose - I think 1989. (Both of 'em used my/Epilogue SNMP agent code for control, and I had a hand in the code of both of 'em.) John built his, I think, at his house in Belmont, California. Simon and I were in the TGV carriage house in Santa Cruz when he wasn't in Adelaide. Both used Sunbeam "Radiant" toasters.? These had the property that they would lower the bread into the slots when the power was turned on and raise the toasted bread slices when the power was turned off. I can't remember much of Simon's implementation.? I vaguely remember that it was on a Motorola 68xxx board. John's was in a laptop that had had the case split open and some wires dragged out to a scary looking relay that turned the power to the toaster on/off.? I'm not sure what John hooked into to drive the relay. The toaster MIB had items about the type of bread, one-or-two slices, desired browning, etc.? (We had fun calibrating the the toaster - the MIB accommodated everything from pop-tarts to real bread to the bread we used at the Interop shows - Wonder Bread - because it is extremely consistent, and cheap.) The code took the MIB inputs and turned that into a power-on signal to the relay and then, after the appropriate time, a power-off. We had it all running on the show floor.? But once the crowds came in we discovered something: We forgot to bring bread.? We had one slice.? So we toasted it over and over and over again on the lowest setting. That was until Ole J. tried to put some butter onto our hyper-dry and brittle toast slice and it shattered. In subsequent Interop shows we elaborated on the concept in various ways.? The toaster remained - but Peter de Vris of FTP Software built a leggo crane, also SNMP controlled, to put the bread into the toaster and remove it. We also had a talking bear/weather station, Simon's amazing 100disk SNMP controlled juke box and stereo amplifier, a toy railroad.... It was also during that time that Simon put together the first Ether-Phones.?? These definitely post-dated the SRI voice-over-the net stuff.? Simon's was cool in that it was all stuffed into a couple of telephone looking things. A couple of years back John Romkey mentioned that he still had his Internet Toaster, but it was only a toaster; the control stuff had all vanished the great /dev/null. ??? ??? --karl-- From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jul 9 01:05:14 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 08:05:14 +0000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history's message of "Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:12:11 -1000") References: Message-ID: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> How about Arpanet of Things? Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. Source code for this is available. From jmamodio at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 05:17:56 2020 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 07:17:56 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT Jorge On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > How about Arpanet of Things? > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > Source code for this is available. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jul 9 05:20:09 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 12:20:09 +0000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: (Jorge Amodio's message of "Thu, 9 Jul 2020 07:17:56 -0500") References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wo8oolw1y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jorge Amodio wrote: > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT I think that was CMU. https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~coke/history_long.txt From jmamodio at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 05:20:25 2020 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 07:20:25 -0500 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Was it CMU I guess not MIT, here is the story https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~coke/history_long.txt Jorge On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 7:17 AM Jorge Amodio wrote: > > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > > Jorge > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> How about Arpanet of Things? >> >> Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by >> extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their >> keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another >> key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. >> Source code for this is available. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > From vint at google.com Thu Jul 9 06:05:17 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:05:17 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it knew whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... v On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > > Jorge > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > How about Arpanet of Things? > > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > > Source code for this is available. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- current postal address: Google, LLC 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 After July 1, 2020: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From galmes at tamu.edu Thu Jul 9 06:35:11 2020 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:35:11 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: <7wo8oolw1y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wo8oolw1y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7782c7de-691e-9a82-3c75-b9c2350f180e@tamu.edu> and it was wonderful On 7/9/20 8:20 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > Jorge Amodio wrote: >> As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > > I think that was CMU. > https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cs.cmu.edu/*coke/history_long.txt__;fg!!KwNVnqRv!SAenpv2HnS6U8o3je9mvwQh3tqYyf7HhlVOoVKzX6UysCJS-UEyGXQOgZygNJg$ > From clemc at ccc.com Thu Jul 9 06:39:04 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 09:39:04 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: <7wo8oolw1y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <7wo8oolw1y.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Yep - $.25 for a cold glass-bottled 12 oz coke. It could not be beaten. And 'coke stat' was extremely important if you were working any of the labs in the EE bldg, which was next door (and then outside. Today, it's connected via a tunnel). Missing from the story is that the exit door to the 3rd-floor CS terminal room was about 20 ft away from the coke machine, hung off a corridor, as part of the main machine room. Because the cooling systems for everything were on a common air supply, so all the doors automatically closed and may even have had a timed alarm at some point but I have forgotten. The key point was that you could do "coke stat;" decide it was cold enough, then exit out the back door, get a coke, and return via that door in one "coke dispense cycle," but not two before it automatically closed and locked. Otherwise, you had to walk back to the end of the hall and enter the machine room via the door lock protocol, and then cross back to the terminal room. On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:20 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Jorge Amodio wrote: > > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > > I think that was CMU. > https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~coke/history_long.txt > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From steffen at sdaoden.eu Thu Jul 9 06:41:30 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 15:41:30 +0200 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Hello. Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote in : [-- #1.1 55/1496 --] [-- Defective MIME structure --] It seems the ML strips (at least) application/pkcs7-signature of S/MIME, those should be in DEFAULT_PASS_MIME_TYPES. (A little bit funny that now that everybody goes for DKIM and we see this terrible "Name via List " everywhere, personal and conscious signatures end up mutilated.) Having said that, my Mailman (v2.* based) did pass a message with an image recently even though these are not in PASS_MIME_TYPES. (The message got stuck in a moderator queue first. And my gut feeling tells me that whenever a queue is involved, trouble is ahead. Like endless tries to notify posters of non-member post attempts that await moderator approval etc. But .. off-topic.) Ciao from Germany, --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jul 9 06:56:54 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 06:56:54 -0700 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: On 7/9/2020 6:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: > (A little bit > funny that now that everybody goes for DKIM and we see this > terrible "Name via List " everywhere, personal and conscious > signatures end up mutilated.) fwiw, that's an artifact of DMARC, not DKIM. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Thu Jul 9 07:36:33 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:36:33 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On 7/9/20 4:05 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > How about Arpanet of Things? > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > Source code for this is available. A fraternity brother.? I'm reminded that some of the folks who strung the wires talked rather proudly about it being a "black bag job," carried out with the stealth of a special forces operation, and things like covering the wires with grease to make them look like they'd always been there. And then there was the Fresh Pond traffic camera, at BBN - I can't remember who's office it was in, but it was down the hall from mine, at one time.? (Why is it that I've managed to have front row seats for some of these things, but managed to miss the direct action.? Same again for the MIT Blackjack Team - classmates, neighbors, close, but no cigar.? Sigh...) Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jul 9 07:47:46 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 04:47:46 -1000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: there was also "The *Trojan Room coffee pot* was a coffee machine located next to the so-called Trojan Room in the old Computer Laboratory of the University of Cambridge , England, which in 1991 provided the inspiration for the world's first webcam ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Room_coffee_pot https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/coffee/coffee.html On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:37 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 7/9/20 4:05 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > > > How about Arpanet of Things? > > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > > Source code for this is available. > > A fraternity brother. I'm reminded that some of the folks who strung > the wires talked rather proudly about it being a "black bag job," > carried out with the stealth of a special forces operation, and things > like covering the wires with grease to make them look like they'd always > been there. > > And then there was the Fresh Pond traffic camera, at BBN - I can't > remember who's office it was in, but it was down the hall from mine, at > one time. (Why is it that I've managed to have front row seats for some > of these things, but managed to miss the direct action. Same again for > the MIT Blackjack Team - classmates, neighbors, close, but no cigar. > Sigh...) > > Miles Fidelman > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. > In our lab, theory and practice are combined: > nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From dot at dotat.at Thu Jul 9 11:50:24 2020 From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 19:50:24 +0100 Subject: [ih] SIP and ENUM In-Reply-To: <20200708211442.CC5EE1C6DB84@ary.qy> References: <20200708211442.CC5EE1C6DB84@ary.qy> Message-ID: John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > > I don't understand this concern. Even the most complicated regex is > only a pattern that either matches or doesn't, with well understood > mathematical properties. It doesn't have loops or subroutines, and > since we have fifty years of experience with regex matching, we know > how to handle them efficiently. Well, one of the classic ways to create a system that is accidentally Turing complete is to combine regular expressions with a rewrite loop. (Sendmail is a well-known example, but basically any MTA is Turing complete by the same logic.) NAPTR records combine regular expressions with a rewrite loop, but they avoid being Turing complete because the regex rewrite is always applied to the original input string, not to the output of the previous rewrite. RFC 2915 says this is because the Turing complete version would be too confusing, without mentioning that it would also be Turing complete. Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ Gibraltar Point to North Foreland: Cyclonic becoming northerly 5 or 6, decreasing 3 or 4 later. Slight or moderate, becoming smooth or slight later. Occasional rain or drizzle then showers. Good, occasionally poor at first. From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 13:09:58 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:09:58 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: the coffee pot watcher was surely one of the first webcams I can remember. I think there were some in Hawaii and maybe NZ as well. Wellington, NZ was one of the first cities to have an official website, I think. v On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 10:48 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > there was also "The *Trojan Room coffee pot* was a coffee machine > located next to the > so-called Trojan Room in the old Computer Laboratory > > of > the University of Cambridge > , England, which in > 1991 provided the inspiration for the world's first webcam > ... > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Room_coffee_pot > > https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/coffee/coffee.html > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:37 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > On 7/9/20 4:05 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > How about Arpanet of Things? > > > > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their > > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > > > Source code for this is available. > > > > A fraternity brother. I'm reminded that some of the folks who strung > > the wires talked rather proudly about it being a "black bag job," > > carried out with the stealth of a special forces operation, and things > > like covering the wires with grease to make them look like they'd always > > been there. > > > > And then there was the Fresh Pond traffic camera, at BBN - I can't > > remember who's office it was in, but it was down the hall from mine, at > > one time. (Why is it that I've managed to have front row seats for some > > of these things, but managed to miss the direct action. Same again for > > the MIT Blackjack Team - classmates, neighbors, close, but no cigar. > > Sigh...) > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > > -- > > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > > > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. > > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. > > In our lab, theory and practice are combined: > > nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown > > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jul 9 13:30:17 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:30:17 -1000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: and then there was "*Jennifer Kaye Ringley* (born August 10, 1976)[1] is an Internet personality and former lifecaster . *She is known for creating the popular website** JenniCam*.[2] Previously, live webcams transmitted static shots from cameras aimed through windows or at coffee pots . Ringley's innovation was simply to allow others to view her daily activities. *She was the first web-based "lifecaster".*[3] She retired from lifecasting at the end of 2003. In June 2008, CNET hailed JenniCam as one of the greatest defunct websites in history.[4] [...] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer_Ringley On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 10:10 AM vinton cerf wrote: > the coffee pot watcher was surely one of the first webcams I can remember. > I think there were some in Hawaii and maybe NZ as well. Wellington, NZ was > one of the first cities to have an official website, I think. > > v > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 10:48 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: > >> there was also "The *Trojan Room coffee pot* was a coffee machine >> located next to the >> so-called Trojan Room in the old Computer Laboratory >> < >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Cambridge_Computer_Laboratory> >> of >> the University of Cambridge >> , England, which >> in >> 1991 provided the inspiration for the world's first webcam >> ... >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Room_coffee_pot >> >> https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/coffee/coffee.html >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:37 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >> > On 7/9/20 4:05 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: >> > >> > > How about Arpanet of Things? >> > > >> > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by >> > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on >> their >> > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another >> > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. >> > > Source code for this is available. >> > >> > A fraternity brother. I'm reminded that some of the folks who strung >> > the wires talked rather proudly about it being a "black bag job," >> > carried out with the stealth of a special forces operation, and things >> > like covering the wires with grease to make them look like they'd always >> > been there. >> > >> > And then there was the Fresh Pond traffic camera, at BBN - I can't >> > remember who's office it was in, but it was down the hall from mine, at >> > one time. (Why is it that I've managed to have front row seats for some >> > of these things, but managed to miss the direct action. Same again for >> > the MIT Blackjack Team - classmates, neighbors, close, but no cigar. >> > Sigh...) >> > >> > Miles Fidelman >> > >> > -- >> > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. >> > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra >> > >> > Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. >> > Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. >> > In our lab, theory and practice are combined: >> > nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown >> > >> > >> -- >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com >> living as The Truth is True >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jul 9 13:36:07 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 20:36:07 +0000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: (vinton cerf via Internet-history's message of "Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:09:58 -0400") References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wblkojuiw.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Vinton Cerf wrote: > Wellington, NZ was one of the first cities to have an official > website, I think. We can see the state of the art "New Zealand Government 1.1" here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-vNLCiJlng From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Jul 9 13:40:17 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 13:40:17 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39b44b34-9455-a6b0-7b12-8a4f43d0b9a6@3kitty.org> Hi Steve et al, Yes, I agree that there are "traceable tracks" over the last 50+ years from concept to what we have today, for a lot of different concepts.?? What I was searching for was a pointer to some book(s) or author(s) that have actually done the tracing, including multiple traces that influenced each other, and shown how the world got from point A to point B. I've only read a few "internet history" expositions, but all that I've seen have seemed to me to be quite parochial, tracing either the history of a person or maybe a group, or the history of a technology such as TCP/IP (or ARPANET).???? So, for example, they don't explore any influences that might have occurred from other parallel efforts.?? One example is the development of the Internet in the early 80s, and cross-coupling that might have occurred between the ARPA "Internet Project" and the Xerox PARC creation of XNS technology.? I do have one tiny piece of evidence that such interactions occurred -- one of the XNS specifications references an RFC I wrote at MIT while in Lick's world; somebody at Xerox read it, although I suspect much more such "cross-coupling" occurred when Bob Metcalfe left Lick's group and joined PARC.? Also I recall John Schoch participating (and even hosting at PARC) one of the quarterly Internet meetings, and lively discussions of naming vs. addressing vs. routing. There were similarly many other concomitant "internet projects" in the 80s -- IBM/SNA, Novell, Banyan, OSI, DECNET, et al, which may, or may not, have interacted with "The Internet", if only by the effect of people moving around during their career.?? But the "internet history" discussions I've seen generally don't even mention such work. So I was hoping that someone would point me to some historian's work which has traced something (e.g., Lick's notion of programming) through whatever paths it took through whatever companies and institutions over time, showing how it evolved from concept to reality.?? I guess there isn't any but maybe some historian lurking here will take up the task. Meanwhile, I'm collecting thoughts to write down what I personally experienced, which will necessarily be parochial since I can't remember what I never encountered.?? But I had a different path than others, so maybe it will provide another piece of the puzzle for someone to put together later.?? As you said, there's plenty of room for multiple histories.... /Jack On 7/6/20 12:25 PM, Steve Crocker wrote: > Jack, > > The original visions fo Lick, the AI senior people -- Simon, Newell, > McCarthy, Minsky, Engelbart and others repeatedly animated ARPA > sponsored computer science research over many years.? Some ideas > attempted and reattempted.? Hardware was often (always?) a gating > factor, but, of course, there was also a learning curve.? From mid > 1971 to mid 194 I oversaw the first few years of the Speech > Understanding Program.? The goal was understanding connected speech > input in a constrained task environment.? 1,000 word vocabulary, > standard American male broadcast speech in a clean environment.? No > requirement to operate in real time.? There are traceable tracks from > that work to today's Alexa, Siri, et al.? Lick had a vision of a > unified library.? I'm not sure today's Google is quite what he had in > mind, but it's quite astonishing nonetheless. > > David Alan Grier and I are working on a history of the Arpanet.? We've > been trying to describe the context, i.e. the state of the art and the > motivation, and that's led us inevitably into the broader context of > the goals for man machine interaction during that period.? We > certainly won't be able to include all the threads from that period, > so there is room for multiple histories to be written. > > Steve > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:51 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > > For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from > brainstorm to > reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded > me.? So a > question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an > Internet-related > idea from concept decades ago to reality today? > > There's a specific idea that I have in mind.? Back in the early 70s, > Licklider > ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I > worked at > MIT.? Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning > subroutines and > data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, > paragraphs, and > documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs.? These > "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic > computer > network". > > Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that > sure sounds > pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. > > Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write > libraries > of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized data > structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them > together into > sentences, aka programs, to do useful work.???? > > Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called > "Automatic > Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood for > something > but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was > well-documented > (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a > searchable > database for use by subsequent programmers. > > But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly language, > text-only > terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET.?? None of this was > especially > portable and has long since disappeared. > > Fast forward to 2020.? I recently stumbled across a technology called > NodeRed, > somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components > which do > interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's > terminology.? The > programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the > pieces you > need, and then "wire" them together to create functional > programming.?? You > create your program by literally drawing a picture.? The Internet > provides the > necessary communications substrate on which all these actors > perform.?? > People > can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. > > IMHO, Lick would have loved this. > > I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation > programs, > e.g., > stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger.?? Or > send me email > when something unusual is detected.? Or almost anything else you can > think of. > It really is very simple to use.? I can see the parallels between > Lick's 70s > vision and today's actual implementations.?? Instead of a PDP-10 and > ARPANET, > today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. > > So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B.? There > were lots > of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, > etc.?? There > were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to > careers.? > Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the > appearance of > NodeRed 50 years later??? Or was it some totally different > evolution from > someone's else's similar vision? > > Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces > of the > evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use??? How did > something > like NodeRed come from vision to reality? > > /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From vint at google.com Thu Jul 9 13:42:54 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:42:54 -0400 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <39b44b34-9455-a6b0-7b12-8a4f43d0b9a6@3kitty.org> References: <39b44b34-9455-a6b0-7b12-8a4f43d0b9a6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: PARC guys came to my networking seminars and left hits about their protocols that started with PUP and ended with XNS. v On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:40 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Hi Steve et al, > > Yes, I agree that there are "traceable tracks" over the last 50+ years > from concept to what we have today, for a lot of different concepts. > What I was searching for was a pointer to some book(s) or author(s) that > have actually done the tracing, including multiple traces that > influenced each other, and shown how the world got from point A to point B. > > I've only read a few "internet history" expositions, but all that I've > seen have seemed to me to be quite parochial, tracing either the history > of a person or maybe a group, or the history of a technology such as > TCP/IP (or ARPANET). So, for example, they don't explore any > influences that might have occurred from other parallel efforts. > > One example is the development of the Internet in the early 80s, and > cross-coupling that might have occurred between the ARPA "Internet > Project" and the Xerox PARC creation of XNS technology. I do have one > tiny piece of evidence that such interactions occurred -- one of the XNS > specifications references an RFC I wrote at MIT while in Lick's world; > somebody at Xerox read it, although I suspect much more such > "cross-coupling" occurred when Bob Metcalfe left Lick's group and joined > PARC. Also I recall John Schoch participating (and even hosting at > PARC) one of the quarterly Internet meetings, and lively discussions of > naming vs. addressing vs. routing. > > There were similarly many other concomitant "internet projects" in the > 80s -- IBM/SNA, Novell, Banyan, OSI, DECNET, et al, which may, or may > not, have interacted with "The Internet", if only by the effect of > people moving around during their career. But the "internet history" > discussions I've seen generally don't even mention such work. > > So I was hoping that someone would point me to some historian's work > which has traced something (e.g., Lick's notion of programming) through > whatever paths it took through whatever companies and institutions over > time, showing how it evolved from concept to reality. I guess there > isn't any but maybe some historian lurking here will take up the task. > > Meanwhile, I'm collecting thoughts to write down what I personally > experienced, which will necessarily be parochial since I can't remember > what I never encountered. But I had a different path than others, so > maybe it will provide another piece of the puzzle for someone to put > together later. As you said, there's plenty of room for multiple > histories.... > > /Jack > > On 7/6/20 12:25 PM, Steve Crocker wrote: > > Jack, > > > > The original visions fo Lick, the AI senior people -- Simon, Newell, > > McCarthy, Minsky, Engelbart and others repeatedly animated ARPA > > sponsored computer science research over many years. Some ideas > > attempted and reattempted. Hardware was often (always?) a gating > > factor, but, of course, there was also a learning curve. From mid > > 1971 to mid 194 I oversaw the first few years of the Speech > > Understanding Program. The goal was understanding connected speech > > input in a constrained task environment. 1,000 word vocabulary, > > standard American male broadcast speech in a clean environment. No > > requirement to operate in real time. There are traceable tracks from > > that work to today's Alexa, Siri, et al. Lick had a vision of a > > unified library. I'm not sure today's Google is quite what he had in > > mind, but it's quite astonishing nonetheless. > > > > David Alan Grier and I are working on a history of the Arpanet. We've > > been trying to describe the context, i.e. the state of the art and the > > motivation, and that's led us inevitably into the broader context of > > the goals for man machine interaction during that period. We > > certainly won't be able to include all the threads from that period, > > so there is room for multiple histories to be written. > > > > Steve > > > > > > On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:51 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > > > wrote: > > > > For a while now, I've been curious about how ideas progress from > > brainstorm to > > reality, and the recent mention of Licklider's vision reminded > > me. So a > > question for the historians out there -- has anyone traced an > > Internet-related > > idea from concept decades ago to reality today? > > > > There's a specific idea that I have in mind. Back in the early 70s, > > Licklider > > ("Lick") was my thesis advisor and later boss of the group where I > > worked at > > MIT. Lick had a vision of "verbs" and "nouns", roughly meaning > > subroutines and > > data structures, that could be used to put together "sentences, > > paragraphs, and > > documents", meaning computer subroutine libraries and programs. > These > > "documents" would interact with each other across the "intergalactic > > computer > > network". > > > > Having been brainwashed by Lick, I'm admittedly biased, but that > > sure sounds > > pretty close to what we have today, 50 years later. > > > > Back in the 70s, part of Lick's vision was also that you could write > > libraries > > of subroutines to create a dictionary of "verbs" and standardized > data > > structures , or "nouns", and through some magic (APIs) plug them > > together into > > sentences, aka programs, to do useful work. > > > > Our group spent a lot of time, as part of an ARPA effort called > > "Automatic > > Programming", to build such a system, called "CALICO" (which stood > for > > something > > but I can't remember what). The "dictionary" of pieces was > > well-documented > > (eeerr, uuhm, sorta kinda - we weren't big on documentation) and in a > > searchable > > database for use by subsequent programmers. > > > > But the technology of the era dictated using PDP-10 assembly > language, > > text-only > > terminals, and the now appallingly slow ARPANET. None of this was > > especially > > portable and has long since disappeared. > > > > Fast forward to 2020. I recently stumbled across a technology called > > NodeRed, > > somehow associated with IBM, which provides a "palette" of components > > which do > > interesting things -- i.e., the "verbs" and "nouns" in Lick's > > terminology. The > > programming environment is a blank screen, onto which you drag the > > pieces you > > need, and then "wire" them together to create functional > > programming. You > > create your program by literally drawing a picture. The Internet > > provides the > > necessary communications substrate on which all these actors > > perform. > > People > > can readily create new "verbs" and submit them to the library. > > > > IMHO, Lick would have loved this. > > > > I've been using NodeRed to create some simple home automation > > programs, > > e.g., > > stuff like turning on lights when motion sensors trigger. Or > > send me email > > when something unusual is detected. Or almost anything else you can > > think of. > > It really is very simple to use. I can see the parallels between > > Lick's 70s > > vision and today's actual implementations. Instead of a PDP-10 and > > ARPANET, > > today I just use a Raspberry Pi and Wifi. > > > > So, my curiosity is how the world got from point A to point B. There > > were lots > > of people who encountered Lick over the years, e.g., at MIT, ARPA, > > etc. There > > were lots of students who passed through Lick's group on their way to > > careers. > > Did Lick's vision travel with some of them and influence the > > appearance of > > NodeRed 50 years later? Or was it some totally different > > evolution from > > someone's else's similar vision? > > > > Do Internet Historians perform these kinds of "genealogy" traces > > of the > > evolution of technical ideas from concept to widespread use? How > did > > something > > like NodeRed come from vision to reality? > > > > /Jack Haverty (MIT LCS 1969-1977) > > > > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- current postal address: Google, LLC 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 After July 1, 2020: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jul 9 13:45:11 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 10:45:11 -1000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: vis-a-vis "Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it knew whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages..." yours truly recalls the SAIL vending machine was connected to the labs PDP-10 via an RS-232 line. The vending machine customers used a model 33 Teletype next to it that was later replaced by a Lear Siegler ADM CRT display terminal... more details from Les Earnest in this EXCERPT at https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/spin/sagas.htm: *Prancing Pony vending machine* The Prancing Pony Vending Machine was evidently the first computer controlled vending machine anywhere in the world. It was created to fill an unmet need. Given that SAIL was about five miles off-campus and the nearest food source was a beer garden (Zotts) about a mile away, I initially set up a coffee and food room near the center of our facility and it subsequently got named after a pub in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". In fact all rooms in our facility were named after places in Middle Earth and had signs posted on the doors showing their names in both Latin and Elvish alphabets. At some point the Stanford Buildings folks asked me to number our rooms and give them a map. Instead we gave them a map showing room names in both alphabets. Their response was to send out a carpenter with numbered tags, which he nailed on each door. Meanwhile we took turns buying coffee and food, which was offered for sale on an honor system basis. That worked well for awhile but it suddenly started losing money big time. We then negotiated with Canteen, which had an exclusive contract with Stanford, to put in a couple of vending machines. However we found that they were not restocked often enough and broke rather frequently. I finally negotiated to rent a machine from Canteen that we could restock. They seemed to like this idea since it would relieve them of making frequent trips out to our distant facility. In fact they never billed us for the rental even though I repeatedly called it to their attention. Meanwhile I got Ted Panofsky to make a connection to our computer so that it could release the doors on the vending machine, thus making it possible to buy either for cash or, though a computer terminal, on credit. I then wrote a program that let people buy under password control and that billed them on a monthly basis via email. It was set up to randomly give away whatever was purchased on 1/128th of the purchases and offered a "double or nothing" option, which had an honest 50:50 outcome. I noticed a cultural difference in that almost none of the computer science students gambled, knowing that they would win 1/128th of the time if they didn't, whereas many of the music students did gamble. In both cases the Prancing Pony vending machine, having taken on the name of the room, seemed quite popular and we organized a team of volunteers to acquire the needed supplies and restock the machine at least twice a day. The Prancing Pony also sold beer but only on credit and only to people over 21, since it knew everyone?s age. If a youngster attempted to buy beer it responded ?Sorry, kid.? Some years later I found out why the honor system had failed in the Pony. I was the founding President of Imagen Corp., which made the first desktop publishing systems using laser printers, and after awhile there a young woman employee felt obligated to confess that when she was a teenybopper, she and her girlfriends used to ride their horses up to SAIL, then went in and stole candy from the Prancing Pony. Thus, her misconduct contributed to a technological advancement. On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM *Vint Cerf via Internet-history > wrote:* > Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it knew > whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... > > v > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > > > > Jorge > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > How about Arpanet of Things? > > > > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on their > > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > > > Source code for this is available. > > > -- > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > current postal address: > Google, LLC > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > > After July 1, 2020: > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > Reston, VA 20190 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From gnu at toad.com Thu Jul 9 15:01:56 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 15:01:56 -0700 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: Cygnus's Internet xmastree Message-ID: <21825.1594332116@hop.toad.com> https://www.nytimes.com/1993/12/25/business/cyberspace-is-looking-a-lot-like-christmas.html We hacked the New York Times by getting our Internet-connected christmas tree onto the Dec 25, 1993 front page of the Times, below the fold. All it required was a digitizing camera, an X10 control interface, and a few lines of software. And having a working Internet connection in 1993. John From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 15:15:37 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 18:15:37 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: thanks for that lovely historical summary, Geoff. The Elvish script was the Tengwar. The Prancing Pony was also stocked with fresh Chinese food. I can't remember whether it was from Chef Chu's or one of the restaurants in the Town and Country Shopping Center. I think it was the latter because one of the students did part time work at the restaurant and kept the Prancing Pony stocked. v v On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > vis-a-vis "Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff > and it knew > whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages..." > > yours truly recalls the SAIL vending machine was connected to the labs > PDP-10 via an RS-232 line. The vending machine customers used a model 33 > Teletype next to it that was later replaced by a Lear Siegler ADM CRT > display terminal... more details from Les Earnest in this EXCERPT at > https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/spin/sagas.htm: > > *Prancing Pony vending machine* > > The Prancing Pony Vending Machine was evidently the first computer > controlled vending machine anywhere in the world. It was created to fill an > unmet need. > > > > Given that SAIL was about five miles off-campus and the nearest food source > was a beer garden (Zotts) about a mile away, I initially set up a coffee > and food room near the center of our facility and it subsequently got named > after a pub in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". In fact all rooms in our > facility were named after places in Middle Earth and had signs posted on > the doors showing their names in both Latin and Elvish alphabets. At some > point the Stanford Buildings folks asked me to number our rooms and give > them a map. Instead we gave them a map showing room names in both > alphabets. Their response was to send out a carpenter with numbered tags, > which he nailed on each door. > > Meanwhile we took turns buying coffee and food, which was offered for sale > on an honor system basis. That worked well for awhile but it suddenly > started losing money big time. We then negotiated with Canteen, which had > an exclusive contract with Stanford, to put in a couple of vending > machines. However we found that they were not restocked often enough and > broke rather frequently. > > I finally negotiated to rent a machine from Canteen that we could restock. > They seemed to like this idea since it would relieve them of making > frequent trips out to our distant facility. In fact they never billed us > for the rental even though I repeatedly called it to their attention. > Meanwhile I got Ted Panofsky to make a connection to our computer so that > it could release the doors on the vending machine, thus making it possible > to buy either for cash or, though a computer terminal, on credit. I then > wrote a program that let people buy under password control and that billed > them on a monthly basis via email. It was set up to randomly give away > whatever was purchased on 1/128th of the purchases and offered a "double or > nothing" option, which had an honest 50:50 outcome. I noticed a cultural > difference in that almost none of the computer science students gambled, > knowing that they would win 1/128th of the time if they didn't, whereas > many of the music students did gamble. In both cases the Prancing Pony > vending machine, having taken on the name of the room, seemed quite popular > and we organized a team of volunteers to acquire the needed supplies and > restock the machine at least twice a day. > > > > The Prancing Pony also sold beer but only on credit and only to people over > 21, since it knew everyone?s age. If a youngster attempted to buy beer it > responded ?Sorry, kid.? > > Some years later I found out why the honor system had failed in the Pony. I > was the founding President of Imagen Corp., which made the first desktop > publishing systems using laser printers, and after awhile there a young > woman employee felt obligated to confess that when she was a teenybopper, > she and her girlfriends used to ride their horses up to SAIL, then went in > and stole candy from the Prancing Pony. Thus, her misconduct contributed to > a technological advancement. > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM *Vint Cerf via Internet-history > > > wrote:* > > > Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it > knew > > whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > > > > > > Jorge > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > > > How about Arpanet of Things? > > > > > > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > > > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on > their > > > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. Another > > > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > > > > Source code for this is available. > > > > -- > > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > > > -- > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > > > > > -- > > current postal address: > > Google, LLC > > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > > Reston, VA 20190 > > > > After July 1, 2020: > > Google, LLC > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > > Reston, VA 20190 > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jul 9 15:37:30 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 12:37:30 -1000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Vint, The Prancing Pony was stocked with Potstickers from Hsi Nan (Louie's) in the Town and Country Shopping Center at El Camino and Embarcadero. It was also stocked with Empanada's. yours truly was a frequent visitor/hanger out there on the weekend and one of the features of The Prancing Pony billing/accounting sw system was that it allowed non-employee SAIL members to establish a "prepaid"/"debt" account -- so as be able to be a Pony customer (which i did). btw, in the nearby lounge area you may recall there was a TV with a "phaser" gun remote control that Hans Moravec made. there was a "TV Guide" process on the PDP-10 that updated a screen that the TV could tune to with the phaser gun remote control. Recall being there one late Saturday night when the PDP-10 crashed during *Saturday Night Live* and it was left down/unattended to until there was a commercial break... :D On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:15 PM vinton cerf wrote: > thanks for that lovely historical summary, Geoff. > > The Elvish script was the Tengwar. > > The Prancing Pony was also stocked with fresh Chinese food. I can't > remember whether it was from Chef Chu's or one of the restaurants in the > Town and Country Shopping Center. I think it was the latter because one of > the students did part time work at the restaurant and kept the Prancing > Pony stocked. > > v > > > v > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: > >> vis-a-vis "Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff >> and it knew >> whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages..." >> >> yours truly recalls the SAIL vending machine was connected to the labs >> PDP-10 via an RS-232 line. The vending machine customers used a model 33 >> Teletype next to it that was later replaced by a Lear Siegler ADM CRT >> display terminal... more details from Les Earnest in this EXCERPT at >> https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/spin/sagas.htm: >> >> *Prancing Pony vending machine* >> >> The Prancing Pony Vending Machine was evidently the first computer >> controlled vending machine anywhere in the world. It was created to fill >> an >> unmet need. >> >> >> >> Given that SAIL was about five miles off-campus and the nearest food >> source >> was a beer garden (Zotts) about a mile away, I initially set up a coffee >> and food room near the center of our facility and it subsequently got >> named >> after a pub in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". In fact all rooms in our >> facility were named after places in Middle Earth and had signs posted on >> the doors showing their names in both Latin and Elvish alphabets. At some >> point the Stanford Buildings folks asked me to number our rooms and give >> them a map. Instead we gave them a map showing room names in both >> alphabets. Their response was to send out a carpenter with numbered tags, >> which he nailed on each door. >> >> Meanwhile we took turns buying coffee and food, which was offered for sale >> on an honor system basis. That worked well for awhile but it suddenly >> started losing money big time. We then negotiated with Canteen, which had >> an exclusive contract with Stanford, to put in a couple of vending >> machines. However we found that they were not restocked often enough and >> broke rather frequently. >> >> I finally negotiated to rent a machine from Canteen that we could restock. >> They seemed to like this idea since it would relieve them of making >> frequent trips out to our distant facility. In fact they never billed us >> for the rental even though I repeatedly called it to their attention. >> Meanwhile I got Ted Panofsky to make a connection to our computer so that >> it could release the doors on the vending machine, thus making it possible >> to buy either for cash or, though a computer terminal, on credit. I then >> wrote a program that let people buy under password control and that billed >> them on a monthly basis via email. It was set up to randomly give away >> whatever was purchased on 1/128th of the purchases and offered a "double >> or >> nothing" option, which had an honest 50:50 outcome. I noticed a cultural >> difference in that almost none of the computer science students gambled, >> knowing that they would win 1/128th of the time if they didn't, whereas >> many of the music students did gamble. In both cases the Prancing Pony >> vending machine, having taken on the name of the room, seemed quite >> popular >> and we organized a team of volunteers to acquire the needed supplies and >> restock the machine at least twice a day. >> >> >> >> The Prancing Pony also sold beer but only on credit and only to people >> over >> 21, since it knew everyone?s age. If a youngster attempted to buy beer it >> responded ?Sorry, kid.? >> >> Some years later I found out why the honor system had failed in the Pony. >> I >> was the founding President of Imagen Corp., which made the first desktop >> publishing systems using laser printers, and after awhile there a young >> woman employee felt obligated to confess that when she was a teenybopper, >> she and her girlfriends used to ride their horses up to SAIL, then went in >> and stole candy from the Prancing Pony. Thus, her misconduct contributed >> to >> a technological advancement. >> >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM *Vint Cerf via Internet-history >> > >> wrote:* >> >> > Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it >> knew >> > whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... >> > >> > v >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> > >> > > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT >> > > >> > > Jorge >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < >> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> > > >> > > > How about Arpanet of Things? >> > > > >> > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by >> > > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on >> their >> > > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. >> Another >> > > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. >> > > > Source code for this is available. >> > > > -- >> > > > Internet-history mailing list >> > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > >> > > -- >> > > Internet-history mailing list >> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > current postal address: >> > Google, LLC >> > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor >> > Reston, VA 20190 >> > >> > After July 1, 2020: >> > Google, LLC >> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 >> > Reston, VA 20190 >> > -- >> > Internet-history mailing list >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > >> >> >> -- >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com >> living as The Truth is True >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From vint at google.com Thu Jul 9 15:39:40 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 18:39:40 -0400 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: yes, Hsi Nan - thanks for clearing up that annoying lapse. v On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:38 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > Vint, The Prancing Pony was stocked with Potstickers from Hsi Nan (Louie's) > in the Town and Country Shopping Center at El Camino and Embarcadero. It > was also stocked with Empanada's. > > yours truly was a frequent visitor/hanger out there on the weekend and one > of the features of The Prancing Pony billing/accounting sw system was that > it allowed non-employee SAIL members to establish a "prepaid"/"debt" > account -- so as be able to be a Pony customer (which i did). > > btw, in the nearby lounge area you may recall there was a TV with a > "phaser" gun remote control that Hans Moravec made. there was a "TV Guide" > process on the PDP-10 that updated a screen that the TV could tune to with > the phaser gun remote control. > > Recall being there one late Saturday night when the PDP-10 crashed > during *Saturday > Night Live* and it was left down/unattended to until there was a commercial > break... :D > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:15 PM vinton cerf wrote: > > > thanks for that lovely historical summary, Geoff. > > > > The Elvish script was the Tengwar. > > > > The Prancing Pony was also stocked with fresh Chinese food. I can't > > remember whether it was from Chef Chu's or one of the restaurants in the > > Town and Country Shopping Center. I think it was the latter because one > of > > the students did part time work at the restaurant and kept the Prancing > > Pony stocked. > > > > v > > > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > > Internet-history wrote: > > > >> vis-a-vis "Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other > stuff > >> and it knew > >> whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages..." > >> > >> yours truly recalls the SAIL vending machine was connected to the labs > >> PDP-10 via an RS-232 line. The vending machine customers used a model > 33 > >> Teletype next to it that was later replaced by a Lear Siegler ADM CRT > >> display terminal... more details from Les Earnest in this EXCERPT at > >> https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/spin/sagas.htm: > >> > >> *Prancing Pony vending machine* > >> > >> The Prancing Pony Vending Machine was evidently the first computer > >> controlled vending machine anywhere in the world. It was created to fill > >> an > >> unmet need. > >> > >> > >> > >> Given that SAIL was about five miles off-campus and the nearest food > >> source > >> was a beer garden (Zotts) about a mile away, I initially set up a coffee > >> and food room near the center of our facility and it subsequently got > >> named > >> after a pub in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". In fact all rooms in our > >> facility were named after places in Middle Earth and had signs posted on > >> the doors showing their names in both Latin and Elvish alphabets. At > some > >> point the Stanford Buildings folks asked me to number our rooms and give > >> them a map. Instead we gave them a map showing room names in both > >> alphabets. Their response was to send out a carpenter with numbered > tags, > >> which he nailed on each door. > >> > >> Meanwhile we took turns buying coffee and food, which was offered for > sale > >> on an honor system basis. That worked well for awhile but it suddenly > >> started losing money big time. We then negotiated with Canteen, which > had > >> an exclusive contract with Stanford, to put in a couple of vending > >> machines. However we found that they were not restocked often enough and > >> broke rather frequently. > >> > >> I finally negotiated to rent a machine from Canteen that we could > restock. > >> They seemed to like this idea since it would relieve them of making > >> frequent trips out to our distant facility. In fact they never billed us > >> for the rental even though I repeatedly called it to their attention. > >> Meanwhile I got Ted Panofsky to make a connection to our computer so > that > >> it could release the doors on the vending machine, thus making it > possible > >> to buy either for cash or, though a computer terminal, on credit. I then > >> wrote a program that let people buy under password control and that > billed > >> them on a monthly basis via email. It was set up to randomly give away > >> whatever was purchased on 1/128th of the purchases and offered a "double > >> or > >> nothing" option, which had an honest 50:50 outcome. I noticed a cultural > >> difference in that almost none of the computer science students gambled, > >> knowing that they would win 1/128th of the time if they didn't, whereas > >> many of the music students did gamble. In both cases the Prancing Pony > >> vending machine, having taken on the name of the room, seemed quite > >> popular > >> and we organized a team of volunteers to acquire the needed supplies and > >> restock the machine at least twice a day. > >> > >> > >> > >> The Prancing Pony also sold beer but only on credit and only to people > >> over > >> 21, since it knew everyone?s age. If a youngster attempted to buy beer > it > >> responded ?Sorry, kid.? > >> > >> Some years later I found out why the honor system had failed in the > Pony. > >> I > >> was the founding President of Imagen Corp., which made the first desktop > >> publishing systems using laser printers, and after awhile there a young > >> woman employee felt obligated to confess that when she was a > teenybopper, > >> she and her girlfriends used to ride their horses up to SAIL, then went > in > >> and stole candy from the Prancing Pony. Thus, her misconduct contributed > >> to > >> a technological advancement. > >> > >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM *Vint Cerf via Internet-history > >> > > >> wrote:* > >> > >> > Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it > >> knew > >> > whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... > >> > > >> > v > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < > >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > > >> > > As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > >> > > > >> > > Jorge > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > >> > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > How about Arpanet of Things? > >> > > > > >> > > > Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > >> > > > extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on > >> their > >> > > > keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. > >> Another > >> > > > key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > >> > > > Source code for this is available. > >> > > > -- > >> > > > Internet-history mailing list > >> > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > >> > > -- > >> > > Internet-history mailing list > >> > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > current postal address: > >> > Google, LLC > >> > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > >> > Reston, VA 20190 > >> > > >> > After July 1, 2020: > >> > Google, LLC > >> > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > >> > Reston, VA 20190 > >> > -- > >> > Internet-history mailing list > >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > >> > >> > >> -- > >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > >> living as The Truth is True > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- current postal address: Google, LLC 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 After July 1, 2020: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jul 9 16:57:47 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:57:47 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: <39b44b34-9455-a6b0-7b12-8a4f43d0b9a6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <739e6339-71cc-be8f-720d-b02d94caddf9@dcrocker.net> On 7/9/2020 1:42 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > PARC guys came to my networking seminars and left hits about their > protocols that started with PUP and ended with XNS. I wasn't at any of those meetings, but it was pointed out to me that the PARC folk were constrained to not communicate proprietary information. On the other hand, I was also told that they tended to respond to Internet technical ideas by asking remarkably insightful questions... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jul 9 17:04:12 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:04:12 -0700 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: <7wwo3dktad.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <8d3a9858-d5e6-69a2-cf8a-4ff476b3e209@dcrocker.net> On 7/9/2020 6:05 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff My introduction to pot sticker's was at one of the later incarnations of Louie's restaurant, near Stanford. My hosts explained that the pot stickers were quite popular at the AI lab and that it was one of the items stocked in this vending machine. They really were superb. My mind went to the logistics challenges, so I noted that that created a requirement for restocking and asked how that was done. It was explained to me that whenever the machine ran out, whoever noticed would just call Louie for a fresh batch and whoever was at Louie's from the lab would bring the order back. Ever pragmatic, I noted that carried the onerous requirement to always have someone from the lab be at Louie's. Just about then, a re-order phone call came in and some guy from the lab did take the order back. Louie's was quite popular. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From j at shoch.com Thu Jul 9 18:47:40 2020 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 18:47:40 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Vint C. and Dave C., Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. Jack H., et al., In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of interaction between PARC and Stanford: --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings at Stanford. --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was very gracious and welcoming. --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about the specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in discussions about broader internetworking issues. --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork fragmentation, we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure hoped everyone would get the hint..... https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). Vint, those were good times. John Shoch PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot stickers is really bringing back memories. --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El Camino, and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. http://www.noodletheory.com/ From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jul 9 20:00:22 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:00:22 -1000 Subject: [ih] The Xerox Networking "Information Outlet" wall plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: john, vis-a-vis "bringing back memories.": yours truly recalls that during "that era" Xerox had a TV commercial running on [XNS?] networking that featured "An Information Outlet" of an [coax BNC connector? RJ-45? 10 Mbit/s?] Ethernet connection as a "wall plug type thing." yours truly once heard that you had managed to obtain/"rip the outlet" of said "Information Outlet" from the set for which said TV commercial was filmed? the question for you is: 1. is this true? 2. whatever happened to the said "Information Outlet"? [am hoping it is on display at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View,or perhaps "in use" at the Living Computers: Museum + Labs in Seattle? :D] vis-a-vis Louie's Hsi Nan potstickers: yours truly would like to call y'alls summary attention to the best modern day equivalent: *Annie Chung's* ORGANIC {Chicken & Vegetable, Pork & Vegetable, Shiitake & Vegetable} Potstickers most likely available at a local health food store near you: https://anniechun.com/products/ indeed those were Very Good Times, geoff On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:48 PM *John Shoch via Internet-history > wrote:* > Vint C. and Dave C., > Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. > > Jack H., et al., > In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of > interaction between PARC and Stanford: > --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings > at Stanford. > --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, > and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. > --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The > ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was > very gracious and welcoming. > --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes > (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. > --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about the > specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in > discussions about broader internetworking issues. > --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork fragmentation, > we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our > current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure hoped > everyone would get the hint..... > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf > --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later > came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). > > Vint, those were good times. > > John Shoch > > PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot > stickers is really bringing back memories. > --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in > Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El Camino, > and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if > only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). > --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the > restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have > not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. > http://www.noodletheory.com/ > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 20:04:27 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 23:04:27 -0400 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi John - those were good times - I appreciated the hints - even if we didn't necessarily incorporate all of them into TCP, I think we may have tripped into problems and solutions that PARC encountered and perhaps solved in similar ways. Ironically, the 48 bit address space used at PARC might have been enough to last through a good part of this first half of the 21st C although it seemed excessive to me at the time. It's taking a long time to get IPv6 propagated and supported. v On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:48 PM John Shoch via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Vint C. and Dave C., > Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. > > Jack H., et al., > In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of > interaction between PARC and Stanford: > --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings > at Stanford. > --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, > and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. > --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The > ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was > very gracious and welcoming. > --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes > (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. > --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about the > specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in > discussions about broader internetworking issues. > --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork fragmentation, > we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our > current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure hoped > everyone would get the hint..... > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf > --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later > came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). > > Vint, those were good times. > > John Shoch > > PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot > stickers is really bringing back memories. > --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in > Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El Camino, > and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if > only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). > --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the > restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have > not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. > http://www.noodletheory.com/ > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From j at shoch.com Thu Jul 9 21:03:21 2020 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 21:03:21 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 17 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: We built on the original Ethernet and PUP, realizing fairly quickly that we needed flat, unique, 48-bit addresses for both the 2nd generation Ethernet (with DEC and Intel, and then IEEE) and the XNS design. [There was the day someone moved an Alto from one early Ethernet to another, and we accidentally had two machines with identical network-dependent addresses on the same network, talking to the same gateway....."Houston, we have a problem." A small preview of mobile systems.] What an amazing insight -- but, sadly, not mine. I have often said this is the best networking paper I wish I had written, by Dalal and Printis, published 39 years ago: "48-bit absolute internet and Ethernet host numbers" http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/OPD-T8101_48-Bit_Absolute_Internet_and_Ethernet_Host_Numbers.pdf https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1013879.802680 The prophetic last line of the paper: "We encourage designers of other local computer networks and distributed systems to use absolute host numbers from our 48-bit address space. " Worked for the Ethernet......... On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:04 PM vinton cerf wrote: > Hi John - those were good times - I appreciated the hints - even if we > didn't necessarily incorporate all of them into TCP, I think we may have > tripped into problems and solutions that PARC encountered and perhaps > solved in similar ways. Ironically, the 48 bit address space used at PARC > might have been enough to last through a good part of this first half of > the 21st C although it seemed excessive to me at the time. It's taking a > long time to get IPv6 propagated and supported. > > v > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 9:48 PM John Shoch via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Vint C. and Dave C., >> Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. >> >> Jack H., et al., >> In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of >> interaction between PARC and Stanford: >> --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings >> at Stanford. >> --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, >> and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. >> --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The >> ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was >> very gracious and welcoming. >> --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes >> (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. >> --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about >> the >> specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in >> discussions about broader internetworking issues. >> --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork >> fragmentation, >> we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our >> current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure >> hoped >> everyone would get the hint..... >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf >> --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later >> came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). >> >> Vint, those were good times. >> >> John Shoch >> >> PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot >> stickers is really bringing back memories. >> --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in >> Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El >> Camino, >> and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if >> only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). >> --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the >> restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have >> not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. >> http://www.noodletheory.com/ >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > From geoff at iconia.com Thu Jul 9 21:26:01 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 18:26:01 -1000 Subject: [ih] The Xerox Networking "Information Outlet" wall plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: well, whaddya know: Allen Kay uploaded a copy of the AWESOME Xerox Information Outlet TV commercial to youtube -- would you happen to remember what year this was done and airer? Back Story: We did the drawing on the wall with a pale blue pencil so the actor would see it but the camera wouldn?t. All he had to do was trace the lines. Take 1. His delivery was perfect in but his drawing looked like a giant smashed spider. Take 2. Again, a flawless reading. This time his work of art was about 11?x17?. You had to squint to see it. The director yelled, cut! Then he said to the actor, ?Come here for a second.? He came forward. ?Turn around,? said the director. The actor did an about face. They both stared at the wall. Like talking to a 4 year old, the director said, ?Look...what... you... did.? ?Whoops!? said the talent. Take3. The drawing was great but he flubbed the last. Shit! Take 4. Started out fine. We held our breath. Good...good...good. ?...and...Cut!! Perfect!? The director shouted. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2WgFpyL2Pk On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 5:00 PM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow > wrote:* > john, vis-a-vis "bringing back memories.": > > yours truly recalls that during "that era" Xerox had a TV commercial > running on [XNS?] networking that featured "An Information Outlet" of an > [coax BNC connector? RJ-45? 10 Mbit/s?] Ethernet connection as a "wall > plug type thing." > > yours truly once heard that you had managed to obtain/"rip the outlet" of > said "Information Outlet" from the set for which said TV commercial was > filmed? > > the question for you is: > 1. is this true? > 2. whatever happened to the said "Information Outlet"? > > [am hoping it is on display at the Computer History Museum in Mountain > View,or perhaps "in use" at the Living Computers: Museum + Labs in > Seattle? :D] > > vis-a-vis Louie's Hsi Nan potstickers: yours truly would like to call > y'alls summary attention to the best modern day equivalent: > > *Annie Chung's* > ORGANIC > {Chicken & Vegetable, Pork & Vegetable, Shiitake & Vegetable} Potstickers > most likely available at a local health food store near you: > https://anniechun.com/products/ > > indeed those were Very Good Times, > > geoff > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:48 PM *John Shoch via Internet-history > > > wrote:* > >> Vint C. and Dave C., >> Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. >> >> Jack H., et al., >> In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of >> interaction between PARC and Stanford: >> --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings >> at Stanford. >> --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, >> and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. >> --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The >> ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was >> very gracious and welcoming. >> --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes >> (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. >> --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about >> the >> specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in >> discussions about broader internetworking issues. >> --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork >> fragmentation, >> we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our >> current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure >> hoped >> everyone would get the hint..... >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf >> --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later >> came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). >> >> Vint, those were good times. >> >> John Shoch >> >> PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot >> stickers is really bringing back memories. >> --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in >> Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El >> Camino, >> and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if >> only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). >> --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the >> restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have >> not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. >> http://www.noodletheory.com/ >> >> > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From j at shoch.com Thu Jul 9 21:27:54 2020 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 21:27:54 -0700 Subject: [ih] The Xerox Networking "Information Outlet" wall plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Geoff, Nice to hear from you. The "information outlet" message was for general PR and advertising. You can find anything on the Internet (thank-you, Vint and thousands of others....): --An early TV ad, on Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2WgFpyL2Pk --A print ad: https://books.google.com/books?id=aScefDgbsnUC&pg=RA1-PA24&lpg=RA1-PA24&dq=xerox+information+outlet&source=bl&ots=MXMn-80BVh&sig=ACfU3U2UFgpj2FTQ75F2Fow7psNXHUWGVQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjksfKP6MHqAhXYqZ4KHZJ_AaYQ6AEwBHoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=xerox%20information%20outlet&f=false --A lapel pin, on eBay (I don't remember this): https://www.ebay.com/i/124143360301?chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-117182-37290-0&mkcid=2&itemid=124143360301&targetid=917185845248&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=9031927&poi=&campaignid=10459991946&mkgroupid=100467642381&rlsatarget=pla-917185845248&abcId=2146000&merchantid=6296724&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI7ab4j-jB6gIVVD6tBh28dABYEAYYASABEgJxH_D_BwE I think the marketing people had metal "Information Outlet" cover plates made, perhaps as handouts at trade shows (?). I do have one, but not the original. John On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:01 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow < geoff at iconia.com> wrote: > john, vis-a-vis "bringing back memories.": > > yours truly recalls that during "that era" Xerox had a TV commercial > running on [XNS?] networking that featured "An Information Outlet" of an > [coax BNC connector? RJ-45? 10 Mbit/s?] Ethernet connection as a "wall > plug type thing." > > yours truly once heard that you had managed to obtain/"rip the outlet" of > said "Information Outlet" from the set for which said TV commercial was > filmed? > > the question for you is: > 1. is this true? > 2. whatever happened to the said "Information Outlet"? > > [am hoping it is on display at the Computer History Museum in Mountain > View,or perhaps "in use" at the Living Computers: Museum + Labs in > Seattle? :D] > > vis-a-vis Louie's Hsi Nan potstickers: yours truly would like to call > y'alls summary attention to the best modern day equivalent: > > *Annie Chung's* > ORGANIC > {Chicken & Vegetable, Pork & Vegetable, Shiitake & Vegetable} Potstickers > most likely available at a local health food store near you: > https://anniechun.com/products/ > > indeed those were Very Good Times, > > geoff > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:48 PM *John Shoch via Internet-history > > > wrote:* > >> Vint C. and Dave C., >> Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. >> >> Jack H., et al., >> In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of >> interaction between PARC and Stanford: >> --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings >> at Stanford. >> --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, >> and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. >> --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The >> ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was >> very gracious and welcoming. >> --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes >> (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. >> --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about >> the >> specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in >> discussions about broader internetworking issues. >> --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork >> fragmentation, >> we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our >> current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure >> hoped >> everyone would get the hint..... >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf >> --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later >> came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). >> >> Vint, those were good times. >> >> John Shoch >> >> PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot >> stickers is really bringing back memories. >> --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in >> Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El >> Camino, >> and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if >> only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). >> --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the >> restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have >> not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. >> http://www.noodletheory.com/ >> >> > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > > > From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Fri Jul 10 05:10:33 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 08:10:33 -0400 Subject: [ih] The Xerox Networking "Information Outlet" wall plug In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2b0411ca-df0e-c784-0577-f758bbf39acc@meetinghouse.net> Ah yes.? Kind of like the days when folks thought about the notion of "computing dial tone." Miles Fidelman On 7/9/20 11:00 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > john, vis-a-vis "bringing back memories.": > > yours truly recalls that during "that era" Xerox had a TV commercial > running on [XNS?] networking that featured "An Information Outlet" of an > [coax BNC connector? RJ-45? 10 Mbit/s?] Ethernet connection as a "wall > plug type thing." > > yours truly once heard that you had managed to obtain/"rip the outlet" of > said "Information Outlet" from the set for which said TV commercial was > filmed? > > the question for you is: > 1. is this true? > 2. whatever happened to the said "Information Outlet"? > > [am hoping it is on display at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View,or > perhaps "in use" at the Living Computers: Museum + Labs in Seattle? :D] > > vis-a-vis Louie's Hsi Nan potstickers: yours truly would like to call > y'alls summary attention to the best modern day equivalent: > > *Annie Chung's* > ORGANIC > {Chicken & Vegetable, Pork & Vegetable, Shiitake & Vegetable} Potstickers > most likely available at a local health food store near you: > https://anniechun.com/products/ > > indeed those were Very Good Times, > > geoff > > On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:48 PM *John Shoch via Internet-history > > > wrote:* > >> Vint C. and Dave C., >> Thanks for your nice mention of our networking work at PARC. >> >> Jack H., et al., >> In the early internetworking days there was a reasonable amount of >> interaction between PARC and Stanford: >> --At various times, both Bob M. and I sat in on Vint's classes or meetings >> at Stanford. >> --I spent the summer of 1976 (the bicentennial) working in Washington DC, >> and got to visit Vint C. and Bob K. at ARPA, in Va. >> --PARC had a nominal ARPA contract, which allowed us to have an IMP. The >> ARPA connections led to us participating in the TCP meetings -- Vint was >> very gracious and welcoming. >> --Some of it is documented in various TCP and Internet Experiment Notes >> (IENs) -- meetings we attended, use of the PRNET, etc., etc. >> --It is correct that we had some constraints on what we could say about the >> specific PUP design and implementation. But we were able to take part in >> discussions about broader internetworking issues. >> --For example, in our contribution of IEN 20 on internetwork fragmentation, >> we wrote about alternate strategies, and then about picking one: "...our >> current attitude is based on instinct, some experience....." We sure hoped >> everyone would get the hint..... >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien20.pdf >> --Ron Crane and Yogen Dalal, who had worked with Vint at Stanford, later >> came to Xerox (actually SDD, not PARC). >> >> Vint, those were good times. >> >> John Shoch >> >> PS: It's almost dinner time here, and the discussion of Louis Kao's pot >> stickers is really bringing back memories. >> --After Hsi Nan, in Town and Country, Louis (Louie) ran a restaurant in >> Menlo Park, one on Univ. Ave. in Palo Alto, a Foster's Freeze on El Camino, >> and later a restaurant in San Mateo. I followed him to all of these, if >> only for the pot stickers (and kung pao chicken). >> --Some of you may recall Louis and Sandra's son, who was often in the >> restaurant. I'm told he has opened restaurants in the E. Bay, but I have >> not yet been able to visit.....pork dumplings are on the menu. >> http://www.noodletheory.com/ >> >> -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From steffen at sdaoden.eu Fri Jul 10 07:29:22 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:29:22 +0200 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: References: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote in : |On 7/9/2020 6:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: |> (A little bit |> funny that now that everybody goes for DKIM and we see this |> terrible "Name via List " everywhere, personal and conscious |> signatures end up mutilated.) | |fwiw, that's an artifact of DMARC, not DKIM. Oh yes, sorry, not meant to offend you. But still, whereas i really see DKIM, i do not like the way it is used. I have seen messages where several intermediate receivers each performed DKIM verification, which i could possibly understand / deem ok, but also generating DKIM anew. Isn't that a tremendous waste of resources of all kind, need- and useless, and how it increases header size. Just imagine every party along a traceroute chain would reensure the origin (if it could). No no, original sender (create), a possible mailing-list manager on top (verify + create), and final receiver (verify), that would make sense to me. (The problem with the OpenPGP but especially S/MIME i like more is that delayed authentication may no longer be possible. And that it needs MIME. And that the huge graphical / web mail applications may not handle it nicely.) --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From johnl at iecc.com Fri Jul 10 20:01:08 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 10 Jul 2020 23:01:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <20200711030108.79E1F1C834DA@ary.qy> In article <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen at sdaoden.eu> you write: >Oh yes, sorry, not meant to offend you. But still, whereas >i really see DKIM, i do not like the way it is used. I have seen >messages where several intermediate receivers each performed DKIM >verification, which i could possibly understand / deem ok, but >also generating DKIM anew. Isn't that a tremendous waste of >resources of all kind, need- and useless, ... No, that's how it's supposed to work. >and how it increases header size. Um, it's not the 1990s any more. Considering the amount of bloat in typical mail messages these days with overformatted HTML and embedded pictures, a few extra header lines are insignificant. R's, John From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Jul 10 20:10:16 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 20:10:16 -0700 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <84b0b931-f635-823c-86d0-d803fb45f3af@dcrocker.net> On 7/10/2020 7:29 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: > Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote in > : > |On 7/9/2020 6:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: > |> (A little bit > |> funny that now that everybody goes for DKIM and we see this > |> terrible "Name via List " everywhere, personal and conscious > |> signatures end up mutilated.) > | > |fwiw, that's an artifact of DMARC, not DKIM. > > Oh yes, sorry, not meant to offend you. No need to apologize. People mix the references all the time. I am picky about it in technical venues, to make sure people can focus on considering the precise technology at issue. > But still, whereas > i really see DKIM, i do not like the way it is used. I have seen > messages where several intermediate receivers each performed DKIM > verification, which i could possibly understand / deem ok, but > also generating DKIM anew. Isn't that a tremendous waste of > resources of all kind, need- and useless, and how it increases > header size. Just imagine every party along a traceroute chain > would reensure the origin (if it could). No no, original sender > (create), a possible mailing-list manager on top (verify > + create), and final receiver (verify), that would make sense to > me. (The problem with the OpenPGP but especially S/MIME i like > more is that delayed authentication may no longer be possible. > And that it needs MIME. And that the huge graphical / web mail > applications may not handle it nicely.) Yes, it is inefficient. No, it's not a problem. (If we wanted to make email or the web highly optimized, there are many things that would need to be done differently. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From steffen at sdaoden.eu Sat Jul 11 13:38:19 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 22:38:19 +0200 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: <20200711030108.79E1F1C834DA@ary.qy> References: <20200711030108.79E1F1C834DA@ary.qy> Message-ID: <20200711203819.u7grM%steffen@sdaoden.eu> John Levine wrote in <20200711030108.79E1F1C834DA at ary.qy>: |In article <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen at sdaoden.eu> you write: |>Oh yes, sorry, not meant to offend you. But still, whereas |>i really see DKIM, i do not like the way it is used. I have seen |>messages where several intermediate receivers each performed DKIM |>verification, which i could possibly understand / deem ok, but |>also generating DKIM anew. Isn't that a tremendous waste of |>resources of all kind, need- and useless, ... | |No, that's how it's supposed to work. Hm. My evil subconsciousness says it depends. If you do not add or change anything, why should you. It was more about the five and even more successive in the same subdomain subnet i have seen. Normally something for a VPN, IPSec or the lighter TinC-based version, OpenVPN, the hip in-kernel Wireguard. Or simply client certificates for TLS secured SMTP when hopping the intranet structure. Or nothing at all, because behind a DMZ and also otherwise protected by firewall rules and routing. No? I am not using DKIM myself "yet". I track opendkim. I could now also go for python3-dkim, because of GlibC build dependency the upcoming release of this distro will have python3 in core, anyway, and there is a package available. I had to look how i can make postfix use dkim for the one and not the other. Then again, no. |>and how it increases header size. | |Um, it's not the 1990s any more. Considering the amount of bloat in |typical mail messages these days with overformatted HTML and embedded |pictures, a few extra header lines are insignificant. It maybe all be relative, and i counteract it too often, but in my opinion nothing is insignificant. The message summary of my inbox shows message sizes and lines, i thus see them differences six days a week. A nice Sunday i wish. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From steffen at sdaoden.eu Sat Jul 11 13:53:59 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 22:53:59 +0200 Subject: [ih] ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: <84b0b931-f635-823c-86d0-d803fb45f3af@dcrocker.net> References: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <84b0b931-f635-823c-86d0-d803fb45f3af@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <20200711205359.1_snz%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote in <84b0b931-f635-823c-86d0-d803fb45f3af at dcrocker.net>: |On 7/10/2020 7:29 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso wrote: |> Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote in |> : |>|On 7/9/2020 6:41 AM, Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: |>|> (A little bit |>|> funny that now that everybody goes for DKIM and we see this |>|> terrible "Name via List " everywhere, personal and conscious |>|> signatures end up mutilated.) |>| |>|fwiw, that's an artifact of DMARC, not DKIM. |> |> Oh yes, sorry, not meant to offend you. | |No need to apologize. People mix the references all the time. I am |picky about it in technical venues, to make sure people can focus on |considering the precise technology at issue. |> But still, whereas |> i really see DKIM, i do not like the way it is used. I have seen ... |Yes, it is inefficient. No, it's not a problem. Well well, not to be misunderstood here. But misuse is always a problem. |(If we wanted to make email or the web highly optimized, there are many |things that would need to be done differently. That could block me for a long time given how many efforts are made everywhere to improve performance aka throughput. :) A nice Sunday i wish. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From johnl at iecc.com Sat Jul 11 18:09:42 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 12 Jul 2020 01:09:42 -0000 Subject: [ih] mail has changed in the past 30 years, ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200711205359.1_snz%steffen@sdaoden.eu> References: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200711205359.1_snz%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: In article <20200711205359.1_snz%steffen at sdaoden.eu>, Steffen Nurpmeso via Internet-history wrote: > |Yes, it is inefficient. No, it's not a problem. > >Well well, not to be misunderstood here. But misuse is always >a problem. The amount of Internet bandwidth used by mail is an insignificant fraction of the total, and the amount used by signature headers is an insignificant fraction of that insignificant fraction. Take a look at any message from a large mail systems like Gmail or Outlook.com and you'll find a couple of pages of signatures and trace headers and various private stuff. I think we all remember when people complained about how wasteful HTML mail was, and I still run into people who are outraged that when I send a message to two people, my mail system sends two separate copies rather than one copy with two recipients. When we used 1200 bps modems and a T1 was a high capacity backbone, perhaps it mattered but these days when a 5Mb connection is considered painfully slow, it doesn't. The Internet has plenty of problems that need solving, but micro-optimizing the size of mail headers isn't one of them. R's, John -- Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From dhc at dcrocker.net Sat Jul 11 18:46:05 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 18:46:05 -0700 Subject: [ih] mail has changed in the past 30 years, ih ML-manager configuration strips signatures(++) In-Reply-To: References: <20200709134130.FuNF6%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200710142922.rcaBs%steffen@sdaoden.eu> <20200711205359.1_snz%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Message-ID: <3aa2d8a4-0025-d605-4589-f01c5de4e729@dcrocker.net> On 7/11/2020 6:09 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > and the amount used by signature headers is an > insignificant fraction of that insignificant fraction. Small data point for folk who are interested in this issue. DKIM primarily comes from DomainKeys, which was developed at Yahoo!, by Mark Delaney. The signature work is essentially the same. As part of his to get Yahoo! approval to operate DKIM, Mark obviously had to provide an assessment of the hardware and operational costs. This was early 2000s. Even then, Yahoo!'s server farm(s) were pretty large. His assessment was they they would need ONE (1) extra machine. Total. Even with the horrible costs of public key encryption. He was wrong. They turned out not to need /any/ new machines. Because email tends to be i/o intense, leaving a fair amount of cpu sitting around waiting to computer crypto. That was nearly 20 years ago. Machines have not gotten less powerful. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dan at lynch.com Sun Jul 12 17:28:40 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 17:28:40 -0700 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <638B9194-90C3-438E-9613-174EB98A1A90@lynch.com> Ah yes, Hsi Nan. I remember taking someone to dinner there in the late 70s and I was having a technical discussion about the Foonly (PDP-10 clone) and our waiter overheard us and offered some additional technical details that were spot on! We were amazed, but after all we were next to Stanford and anyone could be a genius just trying to make a living ????Probably that same person. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Jul 9, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > ?yes, Hsi Nan - thanks for clearing up that annoying lapse. > > v > > >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:38 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via >> Internet-history wrote: >> >> Vint, The Prancing Pony was stocked with Potstickers from Hsi Nan (Louie's) >> in the Town and Country Shopping Center at El Camino and Embarcadero. It >> was also stocked with Empanada's. >> >> yours truly was a frequent visitor/hanger out there on the weekend and one >> of the features of The Prancing Pony billing/accounting sw system was that >> it allowed non-employee SAIL members to establish a "prepaid"/"debt" >> account -- so as be able to be a Pony customer (which i did). >> >> btw, in the nearby lounge area you may recall there was a TV with a >> "phaser" gun remote control that Hans Moravec made. there was a "TV Guide" >> process on the PDP-10 that updated a screen that the TV could tune to with >> the phaser gun remote control. >> >> Recall being there one late Saturday night when the PDP-10 crashed >> during *Saturday >> Night Live* and it was left down/unattended to until there was a commercial >> break... :D >> >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:15 PM vinton cerf wrote: >>> >>> thanks for that lovely historical summary, Geoff. >>> >>> The Elvish script was the Tengwar. >>> >>> The Prancing Pony was also stocked with fresh Chinese food. I can't >>> remember whether it was from Chef Chu's or one of the restaurants in the >>> Town and Country Shopping Center. I think it was the latter because one >> of >>> the students did part time work at the restaurant and kept the Prancing >>> Pony stocked. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via >>> Internet-history wrote: >>> >>>> vis-a-vis "Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other >> stuff >>>> and it knew >>>> whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages..." >>>> >>>> yours truly recalls the SAIL vending machine was connected to the labs >>>> PDP-10 via an RS-232 line. The vending machine customers used a model >> 33 >>>> Teletype next to it that was later replaced by a Lear Siegler ADM CRT >>>> display terminal... more details from Les Earnest in this EXCERPT at >>>> https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/spin/sagas.htm: >>>> >>>> *Prancing Pony vending machine* >>>> >>>> The Prancing Pony Vending Machine was evidently the first computer >>>> controlled vending machine anywhere in the world. It was created to fill >>>> an >>>> unmet need. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Given that SAIL was about five miles off-campus and the nearest food >>>> source >>>> was a beer garden (Zotts) about a mile away, I initially set up a coffee >>>> and food room near the center of our facility and it subsequently got >>>> named >>>> after a pub in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". In fact all rooms in our >>>> facility were named after places in Middle Earth and had signs posted on >>>> the doors showing their names in both Latin and Elvish alphabets. At >> some >>>> point the Stanford Buildings folks asked me to number our rooms and give >>>> them a map. Instead we gave them a map showing room names in both >>>> alphabets. Their response was to send out a carpenter with numbered >> tags, >>>> which he nailed on each door. >>>> >>>> Meanwhile we took turns buying coffee and food, which was offered for >> sale >>>> on an honor system basis. That worked well for awhile but it suddenly >>>> started losing money big time. We then negotiated with Canteen, which >> had >>>> an exclusive contract with Stanford, to put in a couple of vending >>>> machines. However we found that they were not restocked often enough and >>>> broke rather frequently. >>>> >>>> I finally negotiated to rent a machine from Canteen that we could >> restock. >>>> They seemed to like this idea since it would relieve them of making >>>> frequent trips out to our distant facility. In fact they never billed us >>>> for the rental even though I repeatedly called it to their attention. >>>> Meanwhile I got Ted Panofsky to make a connection to our computer so >> that >>>> it could release the doors on the vending machine, thus making it >> possible >>>> to buy either for cash or, though a computer terminal, on credit. I then >>>> wrote a program that let people buy under password control and that >> billed >>>> them on a monthly basis via email. It was set up to randomly give away >>>> whatever was purchased on 1/128th of the purchases and offered a "double >>>> or >>>> nothing" option, which had an honest 50:50 outcome. I noticed a cultural >>>> difference in that almost none of the computer science students gambled, >>>> knowing that they would win 1/128th of the time if they didn't, whereas >>>> many of the music students did gamble. In both cases the Prancing Pony >>>> vending machine, having taken on the name of the room, seemed quite >>>> popular >>>> and we organized a team of volunteers to acquire the needed supplies and >>>> restock the machine at least twice a day. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> The Prancing Pony also sold beer but only on credit and only to people >>>> over >>>> 21, since it knew everyone?s age. If a youngster attempted to buy beer >> it >>>> responded ?Sorry, kid.? >>>> >>>> Some years later I found out why the honor system had failed in the >> Pony. >>>> I >>>> was the founding President of Imagen Corp., which made the first desktop >>>> publishing systems using laser printers, and after awhile there a young >>>> woman employee felt obligated to confess that when she was a >> teenybopper, >>>> she and her girlfriends used to ride their horses up to SAIL, then went >> in >>>> and stole candy from the Prancing Pony. Thus, her misconduct contributed >>>> to >>>> a technological advancement. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM *Vint Cerf via Internet-history >>>> > >>>> wrote:* >>>> >>>>> Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it >>>> knew >>>>> whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... >>>>> >>>>> v >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT >>>>>> >>>>>> Jorge >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> How about Arpanet of Things? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by >>>>>>> extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on >>>> their >>>>>>> keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. >>>> Another >>>>>>> key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. >>>>>>> Source code for this is available. >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> current postal address: >>>>> Google, LLC >>>>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor >>>>> Reston, VA 20190 >>>>> >>>>> After July 1, 2020: >>>>> Google, LLC >>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 >>>>> Reston, VA 20190 >>>>> -- >>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com >>>> living as The Truth is True >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>> >>> >> >> -- >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com >> living as The Truth is True >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > current postal address: > Google, LLC > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > Reston, VA 20190 > > After July 1, 2020: > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > Reston, VA 20190 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From geoff at iconia.com Sun Jul 12 18:48:40 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 15:48:40 -1000 Subject: [ih] Early IoT: anyone remember The Internet Toaster and Crane? :D In-Reply-To: <638B9194-90C3-438E-9613-174EB98A1A90@lynch.com> References: <638B9194-90C3-438E-9613-174EB98A1A90@lynch.com> Message-ID: the waiter had to be: ... Jeff Rubin, a systems programmer at Stanford's Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, even worked for Mr. Kao as a waiter in exchange for Chinese lessons. Which is why Mark Seiden, a veteran programmer, remembers one day when a manager of the laboratory came to lunch with a Digital Equipment salesman. At one point the two were arguing about a technical detail, and the manager called a halt to the debate. ''There is no point in arguing,'' he said. ''We can settle this very easily. Let's ask the waiter.'' ''Can you tell us about the cache on the KL 10?'' the laboratory manager asked Mr. Rubin. ''It's a 32K two-way set associative cache,'' he replied, and then walked away, leaving the salesman's mouth hanging open. *Palo Alto Journal; Hackers Enjoy One Last Meal From the Master of .com Cuisine* https://www.nytimes.com/1999/09/11/us/palo-alto-journal-hackers-enjoy-one-last-meal-from-the-master-of-com-cuisine.html On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 2:29 PM Dan Lynch wrote: > Ah yes, Hsi Nan. I remember taking someone to dinner there in the late 70s > and I was having a technical discussion about the Foonly (PDP-10 clone) and > our waiter overheard us and offered some additional technical details that > were spot on! We were amazed, but after all we were next to Stanford and > anyone could be a genius just trying to make a living ????Probably that > same person. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > > > On Jul 9, 2020, at 3:40 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > ?yes, Hsi Nan - thanks for clearing up that annoying lapse. > > > > v > > > > > >> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 6:38 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > >> Internet-history wrote: > >> > >> Vint, The Prancing Pony was stocked with Potstickers from Hsi Nan > (Louie's) > >> in the Town and Country Shopping Center at El Camino and Embarcadero. > It > >> was also stocked with Empanada's. > >> > >> yours truly was a frequent visitor/hanger out there on the weekend and > one > >> of the features of The Prancing Pony billing/accounting sw system was > that > >> it allowed non-employee SAIL members to establish a "prepaid"/"debt" > >> account -- so as be able to be a Pony customer (which i did). > >> > >> btw, in the nearby lounge area you may recall there was a TV with a > >> "phaser" gun remote control that Hans Moravec made. there was a "TV > Guide" > >> process on the PDP-10 that updated a screen that the TV could tune to > with > >> the phaser gun remote control. > >> > >> Recall being there one late Saturday night when the PDP-10 crashed > >> during *Saturday > >> Night Live* and it was left down/unattended to until there was a > commercial > >> break... :D > >> > >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 12:15 PM vinton cerf wrote: > >>> > >>> thanks for that lovely historical summary, Geoff. > >>> > >>> The Elvish script was the Tengwar. > >>> > >>> The Prancing Pony was also stocked with fresh Chinese food. I can't > >>> remember whether it was from Chef Chu's or one of the restaurants in > the > >>> Town and Country Shopping Center. I think it was the latter because one > >> of > >>> the students did part time work at the restaurant and kept the Prancing > >>> Pony stocked. > >>> > >>> v > >>> > >>> > >>> v > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 4:46 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > >>> Internet-history wrote: > >>> > >>>> vis-a-vis "Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other > >> stuff > >>>> and it knew > >>>> whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages..." > >>>> > >>>> yours truly recalls the SAIL vending machine was connected to the labs > >>>> PDP-10 via an RS-232 line. The vending machine customers used a model > >> 33 > >>>> Teletype next to it that was later replaced by a Lear Siegler ADM CRT > >>>> display terminal... more details from Les Earnest in this EXCERPT at > >>>> https://web.stanford.edu/~learnest/spin/sagas.htm: > >>>> > >>>> *Prancing Pony vending machine* > >>>> > >>>> The Prancing Pony Vending Machine was evidently the first computer > >>>> controlled vending machine anywhere in the world. It was created to > fill > >>>> an > >>>> unmet need. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> Given that SAIL was about five miles off-campus and the nearest food > >>>> source > >>>> was a beer garden (Zotts) about a mile away, I initially set up a > coffee > >>>> and food room near the center of our facility and it subsequently got > >>>> named > >>>> after a pub in Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings". In fact all rooms in our > >>>> facility were named after places in Middle Earth and had signs posted > on > >>>> the doors showing their names in both Latin and Elvish alphabets. At > >> some > >>>> point the Stanford Buildings folks asked me to number our rooms and > give > >>>> them a map. Instead we gave them a map showing room names in both > >>>> alphabets. Their response was to send out a carpenter with numbered > >> tags, > >>>> which he nailed on each door. > >>>> > >>>> Meanwhile we took turns buying coffee and food, which was offered for > >> sale > >>>> on an honor system basis. That worked well for awhile but it suddenly > >>>> started losing money big time. We then negotiated with Canteen, which > >> had > >>>> an exclusive contract with Stanford, to put in a couple of vending > >>>> machines. However we found that they were not restocked often enough > and > >>>> broke rather frequently. > >>>> > >>>> I finally negotiated to rent a machine from Canteen that we could > >> restock. > >>>> They seemed to like this idea since it would relieve them of making > >>>> frequent trips out to our distant facility. In fact they never billed > us > >>>> for the rental even though I repeatedly called it to their attention. > >>>> Meanwhile I got Ted Panofsky to make a connection to our computer so > >> that > >>>> it could release the doors on the vending machine, thus making it > >> possible > >>>> to buy either for cash or, though a computer terminal, on credit. I > then > >>>> wrote a program that let people buy under password control and that > >> billed > >>>> them on a monthly basis via email. It was set up to randomly give away > >>>> whatever was purchased on 1/128th of the purchases and offered a > "double > >>>> or > >>>> nothing" option, which had an honest 50:50 outcome. I noticed a > cultural > >>>> difference in that almost none of the computer science students > gambled, > >>>> knowing that they would win 1/128th of the time if they didn't, > whereas > >>>> many of the music students did gamble. In both cases the Prancing Pony > >>>> vending machine, having taken on the name of the room, seemed quite > >>>> popular > >>>> and we organized a team of volunteers to acquire the needed supplies > and > >>>> restock the machine at least twice a day. > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> The Prancing Pony also sold beer but only on credit and only to people > >>>> over > >>>> 21, since it knew everyone?s age. If a youngster attempted to buy beer > >> it > >>>> responded ?Sorry, kid.? > >>>> > >>>> Some years later I found out why the honor system had failed in the > >> Pony. > >>>> I > >>>> was the founding President of Imagen Corp., which made the first > desktop > >>>> publishing systems using laser printers, and after awhile there a > young > >>>> woman employee felt obligated to confess that when she was a > >> teenybopper, > >>>> she and her girlfriends used to ride their horses up to SAIL, then > went > >> in > >>>> and stole candy from the Prancing Pony. Thus, her misconduct > contributed > >>>> to > >>>> a technological advancement. > >>>> > >>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM *Vint Cerf via Internet-history > >>>> > > >>>> wrote:* > >>>> > >>>>> Stanford AI Lab had a vending machine for food and other stuff and it > >>>> knew > >>>>> whether you were old enough for alcoholic beverages... > >>>>> > >>>>> v > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 8:18 AM Jorge Amodio via Internet-history < > >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> As far as I remember there was a wired coke machine at MIT > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Jorge > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> On Thu, Jul 9, 2020 at 3:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> How about Arpanet of Things? > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Danny Hillis connected elevator buttons to MIT's Chaosnet, and by > >>>>>>> extension Arpanet. Users could type a special key combination on > >>>> their > >>>>>>> keyboards to call the elevator to Tech Square floors 8 or 9. > >>>> Another > >>>>>>> key would buzz open the door to the machine room on the 9th floor. > >>>>>>> Source code for this is available. > >>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> current postal address: > >>>>> Google, LLC > >>>>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > >>>>> Reston, VA 20190 > >>>>> > >>>>> After July 1, 2020: > >>>>> Google, LLC > >>>>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > >>>>> Reston, VA 20190 > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > >>>> living as The Truth is True > >>>> -- > >>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>> > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > >> living as The Truth is True > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > > current postal address: > > Google, LLC > > 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor > > Reston, VA 20190 > > > > After July 1, 2020: > > Google, LLC > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > > Reston, VA 20190 > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From mark at good-stuff.co.uk Mon Jul 13 08:05:10 2020 From: mark at good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:05:10 +0100 Subject: [ih] Usenet query Message-ID: Afternoon all (or morning all, depending on where you are and what time you're reading this). Was anyone here involved in the early days of Usenet, or the drafting of the various RFCs about it? If so, could you possibly help settle (or, at least, illuminate) a debate I'm involved in elsewhere about the purpose and uses of the "Organization:" header. To give some background, it's fairly common these days for Usenet providers to insert their own Organization header where one isn't already set by the user. For example, Eternal September populates that header with "A Noiseless Patient Spider", while AIOE, rather more prosaically, uses the header to identify itself as "Aioe.org NNTP Server". The question being debated is whether or not this is a valid use of the Organization header. On the one hand, there are those who assert that, by a strict reading of the RFCs, this header should only ever be added by the end user (or the owner of the end user's machine), and the Usenet provider shouldn't add it if the user omits it. In which case Eternal September et al are in breach of the RFCs. On the other hand, there are those who assert that the Organization can, legitimately, be the organisation which provides a person with Usenet access, in which case they are abiding by the RFCs. And, on the gripping hand, there are those who assert that since the RFCs which mention the Organization header do so purely descriptively, rather than making any kind of rule or recommendation (the relevant paragraphs contain neither MUST nor SHOULD), it's all irrelevant anyway because even if the RFCs described what was common practice at the time they were written, that doesn't necessarily have any bearing on contemporary practice. Can anyone shed any light on this? Mark From clemc at ccc.com Mon Jul 13 08:14:18 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:14:18 -0400 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I forwarded the question to Mary Ann Horton (who was then known as Mark). She was heavily involved in the development of B and C news. On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:05 AM Mark Goodge via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Afternoon all (or morning all, depending on where you are and what time > you're reading this). > > Was anyone here involved in the early days of Usenet, or the drafting of > the various RFCs about it? If so, could you possibly help settle (or, at > least, illuminate) a debate I'm involved in elsewhere about the purpose > and uses of the "Organization:" header. > > To give some background, it's fairly common these days for Usenet > providers to insert their own Organization header where one isn't > already set by the user. For example, Eternal September populates that > header with "A Noiseless Patient Spider", while AIOE, rather more > prosaically, uses the header to identify itself as "Aioe.org NNTP Server". > > The question being debated is whether or not this is a valid use of the > Organization header. On the one hand, there are those who assert that, > by a strict reading of the RFCs, this header should only ever be added > by the end user (or the owner of the end user's machine), and the Usenet > provider shouldn't add it if the user omits it. In which case Eternal > September et al are in breach of the RFCs. On the other hand, there are > those who assert that the Organization can, legitimately, be the > organisation which provides a person with Usenet access, in which case > they are abiding by the RFCs. And, on the gripping hand, there are those > who assert that since the RFCs which mention the Organization header do > so purely descriptively, rather than making any kind of rule or > recommendation (the relevant paragraphs contain neither MUST nor > SHOULD), it's all irrelevant anyway because even if the RFCs described > what was common practice at the time they were written, that doesn't > necessarily have any bearing on contemporary practice. > > Can anyone shed any light on this? > > Mark > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From geoff at iconia.com Mon Jul 13 09:50:20 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:50:20 -1000 Subject: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under attack.* EXCERPT: The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the most critical infrastructure on Earth. By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human interaction and economic activity around the world. But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political, economic, and social divisions, how has the ?one internet? connecting the entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it? The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the Internet ? which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks ? look like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet domain names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search for and connect to computers easily. These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the right computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). This simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of brilliant engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it has never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been added to the thousands of networks that make up today?s cyber economy. Should the identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos. Given the identifiers? critical role, it is imperative that they not be compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And such fears are real, given authoritarian governments? online meddling in elections, national security networks and digital commercial transactions in the last few years. So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple: geeks, not governments... [...] https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07 https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/ -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From geoff at iconia.com Mon Jul 13 09:52:58 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 06:52:58 -1000 Subject: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Karl Auerbach Date: July 12, 2020 at 06:19:26 GMT+9 That piece demonstrates why "geeks" should *not* run the Internet. Bodies such as ICANN have demonstrated time and time again that they are incapable of resisting capture by organized business interests, such as the trademark industry, and the domain name registry industry (which, though ICANN's decades long self-blindness has created a multi $Billion per year money pump of monopoly-rent profit.) Over the years I've spent a fair amount of time among both "geeks" and "policymakers". There are definitely many very intelligent people in those camps. However there are relative few "geeks" who understand economics, law, or social forces. The same can be said of the policymakers - there are many who's depth of understanding of the Internet is no deeper than having an AOL email account. The voice of experts who know how a thing works, from top to bottom, is essential. But our world is like the fabled elephant in the tale of the blind men who each perceive the creature as only the small piece that they can touch and do not comprehend the total. Those who are experts in one field are often somewhat blind in other fields. This is why we need governance by entities that strive for a synoptic view, that operate on the basis of respect for all concerns and listen (and consider) all voices. The organs of decision of such entities ought to be filled with intelligent, open-minded generalists. Those generalists may not comprehend the entire elephant, but they will know that whatever it is, it is more than merely a tail or trunk or tree-like legs. (This is part of the foundation of my argument that STEM education needs to be balanced by a strong dose of liberal arts - we need to tune our educations machinery to create those smart generalists.) For many decades the Internet had an air gap from society. That gap no longer exists. The Internet is now a fundamental critical infrastructure. It is also being comprehended as a marvelous tool for control, data gathering, public-opinion shaping, profit making, and a force in national an international politics. Take the 5G push for example. At its edges it is starting to give off a scent of attempting to be the new ISO/OSI. There's some good stuff in 5G, as there was in ISO/OSI. But the decisions about deployment of 5G, it's frequency bands, its use in vehicle-to-X communications, etc go well beyond the merely technical. If we let "the geeks" run the farm we can expect a lot of new Facebooks and Zuckerbergs - lots of technology without comprehension of, nor care for, the social impact. Do we really want to resurrect a world run by trade guilds? Is one going to be required to go through an new kind of apprenticeship in order to have a say, a say that must be heard even if not accepted, in how we pull and turn the levers and knobs of our networks, health systems, power grids, food distribution systems, etc etc? Democracy, whether direct or representative, is our imperfect answer. That path is hard, slow, inefficient, and frustrating. But it is necessary. We have to take care to learn from the past. We ought to take a lesson from things like ICANN, where the voice of the public interest is muted under thick layers of complicated procedures, costs of effective participation, and competition from well-funded industrial interests. --karl-- On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:09 AM *the keyboard of geoff goodfellow > wrote:* > *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under > lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from > collapsing entirely. And yet the engineer-led nonprofit organizations that > oversee the stable functioning of the global Internet are again under > attack.* > EXCERPT: > > The coronavirus pandemic has rapidly transformed the internet into the > most critical infrastructure on Earth. > > By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under > lockdown, the internet has helped to prevent the global economy from > collapsing entirely. Indeed, with fear and social distancing continuing to > separate many of us, it has become the connective tissue for much human > interaction and economic activity around the world. > > But few appreciate how this critical global resource has remained stable > and resilient since its inception, even as its scope and scale have > undergone uninterrupted explosive growth. In an age of widening political, > economic, and social divisions, how has the ?one internet? connecting the > entire world been sustained? And how can we best continue to protect it? > > The answers to both questions start with understanding what makes the > Internet ? which consists of tens of thousands of disparate networks ? look > like and function as one network for all. These components, or unique > internet identifiers, include Internet Protocol (IP) addresses, which are > associated with every device connected to the internet, and internet domain > names (like ft.com, harvard.edu or apple.news), which we use to search > for and connect to computers easily. > > These unique identifiers ensure that, no matter where you are or which > network you are connected to, you will always get in touch with the right > computer with the desired domain name, or reach the right target device > with an embedded IP number (such as a smart thermostat, for example). This > simple, elegant architecture reflects the genius of a handful of brilliant > engineers who created the internet a half-century ago. Since then, it has > never failed to help us locate the billions of devices that have been added > to the thousands of networks that make up today?s cyber economy. Should the > identifiers fail, we would experience immediate digital chaos. > > Given the identifiers? critical role, it is imperative that they not be > compromised or controlled by any authority that is not committed to > maintaining the internet as an open, global, common good. In the wrong > hands, they could be used to fragment the Internet and enable top-down > control of usage and users by governments with malign intentions. And such > fears are real, given authoritarian governments? online meddling in > elections, national security networks and digital commercial transactions > in the last few years. > > So, the key question is who should be entrusted today to maintain the > security and reliability of internet identifiers. The answer is simple: > geeks, not governments... > > [...] > > https://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/geeks-not-governments-should-control-the-internet-by-fadi-chehade-2020-07 > > > https://www.japantimes.co.jp/opinion/2020/07/11/commentary/world-commentary/keep-geeks-charge-internet/ > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From touch at strayalpha.com Mon Jul 13 09:59:41 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 09:59:41 -0700 Subject: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6C693CE4-F535-4B30-8377-50F35C94DA91@strayalpha.com> Hi, all, > On Jul 13, 2020, at 9:50 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > > *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under > lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from > collapsing entirely. ...* I find this sort of claim naive at best. Business was conducted remotely before there was an Internet or any form of electronic comms (phones). It just happened on paper and at a different pace, e.g,, using snail mail for more than just junk and advertisements, couriers and messenger services (vs. FedEx and UPS), and newspapers (vs streaming, TV, or even radio). In fact, the use of more local industries arguably could have helped reduce the current pace of the spread vs. driving and flying places we don?t need to be or assembling hundreds of people to work in a single plant. Yes, our understanding of disease transmission is new (at least where we let science be the guide), but we do not live in a unique period in our ability to adapt. Joe From johnl at iecc.com Mon Jul 13 10:01:08 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 13 Jul 2020 13:01:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20200713170108.B22201CCCFED@ary.qy> In article you write: >To give some background, it's fairly common these days for Usenet >providers to insert their own Organization header where one isn't >already set by the user. ... I'm a relative newcomer, only started using usenet in about 1983. I'm fairly sure that news servers always added the Organization header to messages that didn't have it. At the time, every little (or not so little) organization ran its own news server, so the user and the server were invariably at the same organization, so automatically adding the header did the right thing. From agoldmanster at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 10:05:49 2020 From: agoldmanster at gmail.com (Alexander Goldman) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:05:49 -0400 Subject: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet In-Reply-To: <6C693CE4-F535-4B30-8377-50F35C94DA91@strayalpha.com> References: <6C693CE4-F535-4B30-8377-50F35C94DA91@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: The ability to hold real time meetings is driving the push to move office-less. And the ability to collaborate or work from home is very important. Of course, Twitter is not a normal company, but it will not require anyone to work in an office in the future https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/12/twitter-says-staff-can-continue-working-from-home-permanently/ . As for everyone else: https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/ability-to-work-from-home.htm employment fell by 21 percent in occupations in which telework is not feasible, compared with 8 percent in occupations in which telework is feasible On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 12:59 PM Joseph Touch via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Hi, all, > > > On Jul 13, 2020, at 9:50 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: > > > > *By enabling people and businesses to remain connected while under > > lockdown, the Internet has helped to prevent the global economy from > > collapsing entirely. ...* > > > > I find this sort of claim naive at best. > > Business was conducted remotely before there was an Internet or any form > of electronic comms (phones). It just happened on paper and at a different > pace, e.g,, using snail mail for more than just junk and advertisements, > couriers and messenger services (vs. FedEx and UPS), and newspapers (vs > streaming, TV, or even radio). > > In fact, the use of more local industries arguably could have helped > reduce the current pace of the spread vs. driving and flying places we > don?t need to be or assembling hundreds of people to work in a single plant. > > Yes, our understanding of disease transmission is new (at least where we > let science be the guide), but we do not live in a unique period in our > ability to adapt. > > Joe > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 13 12:37:29 2020 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:37:29 -0600 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <659e1b0f-b6fb-1cab-a109-00823c29724c@tnetconsulting.net> On 7/13/20 9:05 AM, Mark Goodge via Internet-history wrote: > Was anyone here involved in the early days of Usenet, or the drafting of > the various RFCs about it? I'm relatively new to Usenet in the last 15 years. So, take what I say with the requisite dosing of spices. > The question being debated is whether or not this is a valid use of > the Organization header. On the one hand, there are those who assert > that, by a strict reading of the RFCs, this header should only ever be > added by the end user (or the owner of the end user's machine), and > the Usenet provider shouldn't add it if the user omits it. ? On > the other hand, there are those who assert that the Organization can, > legitimately, be the organisation which provides a person with Usenet > access, in which case they are abiding by the RFCs. This sounds like transit / intermediate Usenet (UUCP / NNTP) servers /SHOULD/ /NOT/ alter the Organization header. What becomes more nebulous to me is if an external 3rd party Usenet Service Provider count as a /transit/ Usenet server or not? If we apply the analogy of the Email Service Provider, they are responsible for the system(s) that originate, or inject, the email as well as host the mail box for the end user. As such, the ESP /is/ the terminal point. It just happens to be that said terminal point is an external 3rd party instead of an internal system. Does the logic change just because it's an external 3rd party? As I see it, there are multiple broad categories that consuming companies can use for ESP & USP: - Internal - External at the company level. This is your typical XaaS configuration like having Google / Microsoft host your company email. - External at the individual level. Another XaaS, but more akin to individual users having a Gmail / Yahoo address. In my (not so) humble opinion, the first two are decidedly the contracting organization's domain. The fact that the organization has outsourced something doesn't mean that they are in any less control of it at a legal or business -> organizational level. The third seems like the external 3rd party has complete control at a business -> organizational level to do what they want with their servers. Seeing as how Eternal-September and Aioe provide Usenet as a Service to the third category, I think they are both well within their rights to set the Organization: header. That being said, I peer with both E.S. and Aioe and I expect them to *NOT* alter the Organizational header that my internal news server sets. I don't know if this helps or hurts. But it's my 2? worth. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mark at good-stuff.co.uk Mon Jul 13 13:19:37 2020 From: mark at good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:19:37 +0100 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: <659e1b0f-b6fb-1cab-a109-00823c29724c@tnetconsulting.net> References: <659e1b0f-b6fb-1cab-a109-00823c29724c@tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 13/07/2020 20:37, Grant Taylor via Internet-history wrote: > Seeing as how Eternal-September and Aioe provide Usenet as a Service to > the third category, I think they are both well within their rights to > set the Organization: header. > > That being said, I peer with both E.S. and Aioe and I expect them to > *NOT* alter the Organizational header that my internal news server sets. FWIW, they don't. They set the header in one scenario only: when they receive a message from one of their own users (via POST) that does not have the header set. If the header is already set by the user, they don't alter or replace it. And they don't add it, even if it is absent, to a post received via IHAVE from another news server. Mark From woody at pch.net Mon Jul 13 13:20:24 2020 From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 22:20:24 +0200 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: <20200713170108.B22201CCCFED@ary.qy> References: <20200713170108.B22201CCCFED@ary.qy> Message-ID: <86C82934-4FC1-4E85-80FD-74CBA4214E94@pch.net> > On Jul 13, 2020, at 7:01 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > > In article you write: >> To give some background, it's fairly common these days for Usenet >> providers to insert their own Organization header where one isn't >> already set by the user. ... > > I'm a relative newcomer, only started using usenet in about 1983. > > I'm fairly sure that news servers always added the Organization header > to messages that didn't have it. At the time, every little (or not so > little) organization ran its own news server, so the user and the > server were invariably at the same organization, so automatically > adding the header did the right thing. That?s my recollection as well? I used other people?s servers through the eighties, and set up my own for the first time in ?89, at which point I did as John says. -Bill -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 833 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From mark at good-stuff.co.uk Mon Jul 13 13:21:52 2020 From: mark at good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 21:21:52 +0100 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: <20200713170108.B22201CCCFED@ary.qy> References: <20200713170108.B22201CCCFED@ary.qy> Message-ID: <310d0237-117d-247d-1575-985bc438fc6a@good-stuff.co.uk> On 13/07/2020 18:01, John Levine wrote: > In article you write: >> To give some background, it's fairly common these days for Usenet >> providers to insert their own Organization header where one isn't >> already set by the user. ... > > I'm a relative newcomer, only started using usenet in about 1983. > > I'm fairly sure that news servers always added the Organization header > to messages that didn't have it. At the time, every little (or not so > little) organization ran its own news server, so the user and the > server were invariably at the same organization, so automatically > adding the header did the right thing. Yes, that seems to be the general consensus of how things were in the early(ish) days. And in those circumstances, it's clearly correct that the server adds the header if absent. It's when the user and the server are not at the same organisation where things become a little more murky. Mark From touch at strayalpha.com Tue Jul 14 08:02:17 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 08:02:17 -0700 Subject: [ih] Keep the geeks in charge of the internet In-Reply-To: References: <6C693CE4-F535-4B30-8377-50F35C94DA91@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 13, 2020, at 10:05 AM, Alexander Goldman via Internet-history wrote: > > The ability to hold real time meetings is driving the push to move > office-less. And the ability to collaborate or work from home is very > important. Of course, Twitter is not a normal company, but it will not > require anyone to work in an office in the future > https://techcrunch.com/2020/05/12/twitter-says-staff-can-continue-working-from-home-permanently/ > . > > As for everyone else: > > https://www.bls.gov/opub/mlr/2020/article/ability-to-work-from-home.htm > > employment fell by 21 percent in occupations in which telework is not > feasible, compared with 8 percent in occupations in which telework is > feasible A lot of that is arguably because we?re not used to it. My grandmother made lace and sewed wedding dresses from her house; messengers delivered material and picked up completed items. Delivery costs and allowing unsupervised work at home was considered the ?cost of doing business? at the time. Times have changed because capabilities have changed, but they CAN change back, as long as the change happens en-masse. As long as one business can go ?back to usual?, economics will drive others away from these changes. We?re (too) slowly learning that these changes are critical and must be universally mandated. When that happens, I expect a shift in those expectations, as that?s much more tenable than keeping those businesses closed completely for the next year (at least). Joe From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jul 14 12:40:50 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:40:50 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> >From 1970 on for the next 7 years, I was in Lick's group at MIT, first as a student then as research staff. At the time, Lick was very focussed on human/computer symbiosis, i.e., how to have computers help humans do what they do.?? A major part of that was to utilize computers in the office/business environment. We built such a system, limited by the technology of the day, but Lick had a vision for much more.? For example, the office/business environment included notions like approval/release procedures for official correspondence, as well as things like notarization, escrow, third-party verification of transmission/delivery, purchase orders, invoices, and other such business-oriented processes.? The vision was to use the computer to automate all sorts of the traditional business-to-business interactions, using the ARPANET as the communications substrate. The vehicle for implementing this kind of system was the ARPANET, and in particular the neonatal "mail" functionality.?? I recall that, at the time, you sent an email using FTP by simply connecting to the target system, typing "MAIL " as a command to FTP, and then typing your message, signalling the end of it by typing a line with a single period. That was unpleasant, requiring the computer to scan every document being sent to avoid aborting a message in process if it happened to contain a line with just a period.? Abhay Bhushan was responsible for the FTP spec, and his office was down the hall.? So after enough of my badgering, he pushed the inclusion of the new MLFL command into FTP. Over several years, we built a lot of that "business automation" infrastructure.? But it was limited to operation within our own system, and not very portable since it relied on the specific PDP-10 system (ITS) and software (PDP10 Assembler and MDL). We made many efforts to generate enthusiasm for a "structured data" standard for interchange across the ARPANET.? But such a mechanism was only needed for the larger office automation vision, and ARPA wasn't funding more than a few ARPANET sites to implement such experiments.?? Most people just wanted (and only needed) a simple mechanism to augment the "mail" programs that almost every system had at the time for communication between its users.? So instead of some MTP (Message Transmission Protocol) the much simpler SMTP (Simple Message Transmission Protocol) was widely adopted, as an "interim" first step.?? Lots of people subsequently made it useful, like Ray's adoption of @ for addresses. While that simplicity certainly facilitated the explosion of "email" around the world, it pretty much ended standardization efforts for more powerful mechanisms.?? Fifty years later, I can see some of that kind of functionality operating now, in various kinds of online forums, and social media sites.? But, AFAIK, all of these contemporary mechanisms are single-site in nature.? A user must connect to each individual site to join that conversation, and "cross-posting" is often discouraged or impossible.?? There is no endemic and widespread standard for supporting the more complex interactions of Licks' vision, although technologies such as XML and MQTT seem (to me at least) to be now filling in some of the pieces.?? OTOH, market forces also seem to be splitting apart traditional universal standards.?? E.g., I have lots of "mail addresses" in my contacts list, but some of them are now only accessible through something other than SMTP-based mail, such as Facebook, LinkedIn, et al.?? I haven't found any "gateways" or magic syntax (! % etc.) to convey messages across the boundaries.? Universal email is no more. So, Lick's vision included "electronic mail", but it was actually much broader than the "email" we all know today.?? Lick's vision incorporated "electronic mail" as one piece of the larger system of human-human interactions using computer-computer communication over the "galactic network".?? One likely reason that Lick's vision doesn't explicitly contain "electronic mail" is a political one.? When we were building that system, I remember Lick (and Al Vezza) emphasizing that we were *not* building an electronic mail system.? We called it "messaging", and used terms like "communique" rather than "mail". The reason for this was simple.? "Mail" in the US was officially and legally the exclusive responsibility of the US Postal System.?? No one was allowed to compete with the USPS.? I believe Lick was acutely aware of this issue because of his roles at both MIT and ARPA.?? The concern was that someone might view an ARPANET "electronic mail" effort as an attack on the USPS, and that might cause Congress to cut ARPA funding for network research. So, "complicated and cumbersome"??? Yes, perhaps.? But that judgement depends on what problem you're trying to solve.? Lick's vision was significantly broader than the system we use today to carry messages like this one.?? Even if he didn't ever call it "electronic mail". /Jack Haverty On 7/6/20 3:55 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 7/6/2020 1:59 PM, Craig Partridge wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:24 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history >> > > wrote: >> >> >> >> ??? On the other hand, Ray's opportunistic cleverness definitely /was/ >> ??? accidental.? Especially as compared against the more elaborate >> ??? (cumbersome) approach others were considering.? But again, that's a >> ??? matter of the low-level detail. >> >> >> I think this undersells Ray's insight/genius. > > I consider "opportunistic cleverness" to be high praise. > > Besides that, my experience growing up in that environment, where > pretty much everyone would likely be called genius by regular folk, > was that no one used that word.? I quickly noted that they simply said > someone was clever... > > >> Sometimes what makes something go from intellectual concept to >> reality is someone figuring out how to make the something simple.? >> And Ray found a way to make email simple, and easy to use, and it >> exploded.? And then it exploded again when Vittal created MSG and >> "Answer" [modern Reply]. > > Yup. > > What has been interesting is seeing that some people seem to naturally > gravitate towards powerful simplicity. > > From later discussions with Ray, it was clear to me that his process, > back in 1971, of reacting to the surrounding discussions that were > proposing a rather complicated, cumbersome email system -- including > printing messages onto paper and delivering them to people's desks -- > was not an elaborate sequence of thinking through a set of issues, > formulating careful design considerations, and engineering an > integrated system. > > Rather it was a simple moment of the insight you cite: Just make what > really was a tiny increment, linking two existing mechanisms of > messaging and network file copying. > > And I don't undersell the importance of that at all. > > d/ > > From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jul 14 13:06:59 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:06:59 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <88fe050a-0620-c580-fe6a-9614dd7ceaa7@dcrocker.net> On 7/14/2020 12:40 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Fifty years later, I can see some of that kind of > functionality operating now, in various kinds of online forums, and > social media sites.? But, AFAIK, all of these contemporary mechanisms > are single-site in nature.? A user must connect to each individual site > to join that conversation, and "cross-posting" is often discouraged or > impossible. > > There is no endemic and widespread standard for supporting the more > complex interactions of Licks' vision, although technologies such as XML > and MQTT seem (to me at least) to be now filling in some of the > pieces. There were some efforts do do structured 'workflow' and the like, over email, but yes, in a proprietary fashion. If remember, Winograd participated in the Higgins system product. What I've taken from the history of problems these efforts had is that the enhancements need to be optional, rather than coercive. It's been frustrating to see the apparent lack of interest in distributed, open standards for these kinds of functions. I keep think that widespread frustrations with the operations of the major social networking sites might be a useful motivator for a careful effort to replicate social/busines/etc. messaging-based functionality on top of email. So far, I haven't found a set of folk interested in working on that, though. By way of the smallest example, I keep finding myself reading a posting to a mailing list and wanting to signal a simple thumbs up icon. Or sadness, or. And it would be such a simple standard to write and implement, if only the MUA builders were interested... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From geoff at iconia.com Tue Jul 14 13:37:50 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:37:50 -1000 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> Message-ID: vis-a-vis: One likely reason that Lick's vision doesn't explicitly contain "electronic mail" is a political one. When we were building that system, I remember Lick (and Al Vezza) emphasizing that we were *not* building an electronic mail system. We called it "messaging", and used terms like "communique" rather than "mail". The reason for this was simple. "Mail" in the US was officially and legally the exclusive responsibility of the US Postal System. No one was allowed to compete with the USPS. I believe Lick was acutely aware of this issue because of his roles at both MIT and ARPA. *The concern* * was that someone might view an ARPANET "electronic mail" effort as an* * attack on the USPS, and that might cause Congress to cut ARPA funding* * for network research.* recalling how the same "sensitivity" seemed to be true with respect to the word "BYPASS" and "*The Phone Company"* in the early 90's with respect to of final paragraph of: *BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY; E-mail Is Becoming A Cheap-Fax Network* By John Markoff July 21, 1993 https://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/21/business/business-technology-e-mail-is-becoming-a-cheap-fax-network.html The dividing line between paper facsimile documents and electronic mail is vanishing. Thanks to the volunteer efforts of a group of computer network designers, the network of networks known as Internet now permits users to send an e-mail message to be printed out on fax machines at a growing number of sites around the world. Because transmission charges on the Internet are minimal compared with those of the long-distance phone calls normally used for faxes, the system is a cheap way to send faxes across the country or around the world. To use the system, begun this month as an experiment in remote printing, computer mail users include a fax telephone number in the address portion of their message. The message, which may include both text and graphics, will then be automatically routed to a site that has agreed to serve a local geographic "cell" for delivery of the fax message. So far, participating regions include all of Japan, Australia, the Netherlands and Ireland, and in the United States, metropolitan Washington, Silicon Valley and parts of the San Francisco Bay area, as well as other pockets of the country. Leading the project is Marshall T. Rose, a computer communications consultant at Dover Beach Consulting in Mountain View, Calif. He has worked with another Internet researcher, Carl Malamud, who has created Internet Talk Radio, a weekly commercial audio program that is distributed internationally and can be played on computer work stations. The fax cell sites are computers on the Internet that are also connected to inexpensive computer-controlled fax modems that can route the files to virtually any fax machine. Each site can designate the size of the area that it will serve -- whether an entire city or just the fax machines within a particular company. So far, in keeping with the utopianism that still permeates Internet culture, none of the fax middlemen and -women are charging for their services. Mr. Rose noted that the blurring of fax and electronic mail would raise thorny questions. *"Is this global and local bypass of the telephone companies using the Internet?" he asked rhetorically. "Is this legal? We need to think about this."* and also recalling this was happening "in the back/underground" with respect to the UUCP 't' and 'e' protocols which BYPASSED the PSTN and used The Net instead, viz. excerpting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUCP: *t-protocol* originated in the BSD versions of UUCP and is designed to run over TCP/IP links. It has no error correction at all, and the protocol consists simply of breaking up command and file data into 512 or 1024-byte packets to easily fit within typical TCP frames. The less-used *e-protocol*, which originated the HoneyDanBer versions as opposed to t from BSD, differs only in that commands are not packetized and sent as normal strings, while files are padded to the nearest 20 bytes. and the same for NNTP, excerpting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_News_Transfer_Protocol: The *Network News Transfer Protocol* (*NNTP*) is an application protocol used for transporting Usenet news articles (*netnews*) *between *news servers and for reading and posting articles by end user client applications... done to reduce, or really, eliminate the costs of (primarily) Long Distance Phone calls -- not to mention "modem", er, "transmission" speed... :D geoff On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 9:41 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > From 1970 on for the next 7 years, I was in Lick's group at MIT, first > as a student then as research staff. > > At the time, Lick was very focussed on human/computer symbiosis, i.e., > how to have computers help humans do what they do. A major part of > that was to utilize computers in the office/business environment. > > We built such a system, limited by the technology of the day, but Lick > had a vision for much more. For example, the office/business > environment included notions like approval/release procedures for > official correspondence, as well as things like notarization, escrow, > third-party verification of transmission/delivery, purchase orders, > invoices, and other such business-oriented processes. The vision was to > use the computer to automate all sorts of the traditional > business-to-business interactions, using the ARPANET as the > communications substrate. > > The vehicle for implementing this kind of system was the ARPANET, and in > particular the neonatal "mail" functionality. I recall that, at the > time, you sent an email using FTP by simply connecting to the target > system, typing "MAIL " as a command to FTP, and then typing your > message, signalling the end of it by typing a line with a single period. > > That was unpleasant, requiring the computer to scan every document being > sent to avoid aborting a message in process if it happened to contain a > line with just a period. Abhay Bhushan was responsible for the FTP > spec, and his office was down the hall. So after enough of my > badgering, he pushed the inclusion of the new MLFL command into FTP. > > Over several years, we built a lot of that "business automation" > infrastructure. But it was limited to operation within our own system, > and not very portable since it relied on the specific PDP-10 system > (ITS) and software (PDP10 Assembler and MDL). > > We made many efforts to generate enthusiasm for a "structured data" > standard for interchange across the ARPANET. But such a mechanism was > only needed for the larger office automation vision, and ARPA wasn't > funding more than a few ARPANET sites to implement such experiments. > > Most people just wanted (and only needed) a simple mechanism to augment > the "mail" programs that almost every system had at the time for > communication between its users. So instead of some MTP (Message > Transmission Protocol) the much simpler SMTP (Simple Message > Transmission Protocol) was widely adopted, as an "interim" first step. > Lots of people subsequently made it useful, like Ray's adoption of @ for > addresses. > > While that simplicity certainly facilitated the explosion of "email" > around the world, it pretty much ended standardization efforts for more > powerful mechanisms. Fifty years later, I can see some of that kind of > functionality operating now, in various kinds of online forums, and > social media sites. But, AFAIK, all of these contemporary mechanisms > are single-site in nature. A user must connect to each individual site > to join that conversation, and "cross-posting" is often discouraged or > impossible. > > There is no endemic and widespread standard for supporting the more > complex interactions of Licks' vision, although technologies such as XML > and MQTT seem (to me at least) to be now filling in some of the > pieces. OTOH, market forces also seem to be splitting apart > traditional universal standards. E.g., I have lots of "mail addresses" > in my contacts list, but some of them are now only accessible through > something other than SMTP-based mail, such as Facebook, LinkedIn, et > al. I haven't found any "gateways" or magic syntax (! % etc.) to > convey messages across the boundaries. Universal email is no more. > > So, Lick's vision included "electronic mail", but it was actually much > broader than the "email" we all know today. Lick's vision incorporated > "electronic mail" as one piece of the larger system of human-human > interactions using computer-computer communication over the "galactic > network". > > One likely reason that Lick's vision doesn't explicitly contain > "electronic mail" is a political one. When we were building that > system, I remember Lick (and Al Vezza) emphasizing that we were *not* > building an electronic mail system. We called it "messaging", and used > terms like "communique" rather than "mail". > > The reason for this was simple. "Mail" in the US was officially and > legally the exclusive responsibility of the US Postal System. No one > was allowed to compete with the USPS. I believe Lick was acutely aware > of this issue because of his roles at both MIT and ARPA. The concern > was that someone might view an ARPANET "electronic mail" effort as an > attack on the USPS, and that might cause Congress to cut ARPA funding > for network research. > > So, "complicated and cumbersome"? Yes, perhaps. But that judgement > depends on what problem you're trying to solve. Lick's vision was > significantly broader than the system we use today to carry messages > like this one. Even if he didn't ever call it "electronic mail". > > /Jack Haverty > > > On 7/6/20 3:55 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > On 7/6/2020 1:59 PM, Craig Partridge wrote: > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Jul 6, 2020 at 2:24 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history > >> >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> On the other hand, Ray's opportunistic cleverness definitely /was/ > >> accidental. Especially as compared against the more elaborate > >> (cumbersome) approach others were considering. But again, that's a > >> matter of the low-level detail. > >> > >> > >> I think this undersells Ray's insight/genius. > > > > I consider "opportunistic cleverness" to be high praise. > > > > Besides that, my experience growing up in that environment, where > > pretty much everyone would likely be called genius by regular folk, > > was that no one used that word. I quickly noted that they simply said > > someone was clever... > > > > > >> Sometimes what makes something go from intellectual concept to > >> reality is someone figuring out how to make the something simple. > >> And Ray found a way to make email simple, and easy to use, and it > >> exploded. And then it exploded again when Vittal created MSG and > >> "Answer" [modern Reply]. > > > > Yup. > > > > What has been interesting is seeing that some people seem to naturally > > gravitate towards powerful simplicity. > > > > From later discussions with Ray, it was clear to me that his process, > > back in 1971, of reacting to the surrounding discussions that were > > proposing a rather complicated, cumbersome email system -- including > > printing messages onto paper and delivering them to people's desks -- > > was not an elaborate sequence of thinking through a set of issues, > > formulating careful design considerations, and engineering an > > integrated system. > > > > Rather it was a simple moment of the insight you cite: Just make what > > really was a tiny increment, linking two existing mechanisms of > > messaging and network file copying. > > > > And I don't undersell the importance of that at all. > > > > d/ > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Jul 14 13:45:33 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 13:45:33 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <4c2bd8fc-6e82-dda5-421d-f7dff2d03dc9@dcrocker.net> On 7/14/2020 1:37 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > *BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY; E-mail Is Becoming A Cheap-Fax Network* > By John Markoff > July 21, 1993 > https://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/21/business/business-technology-e-mail-is-becoming-a-cheap-fax-network.html > > The dividing line between paper facsimile documents and electronic mail is > vanishing. > > Thanks to the volunteer efforts of a group of computer network designers, > the network of networks known as Internet now permits users to send an > e-mail message to be printed out on fax machines at a growing number of > sites around the world. Indeed, the interested produced a commercial standards effort, with joint work done in the IETF and ITU, for fax over email, and the ITU for fax over SIP. The first output from the IETF work was: RFC 2305 - A Simple Mode of Facsimile Using Internet Mail; K. Toyoda, H. Ohno, J. Murai, D. Wing; March 1998 d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jul 14 15:02:08 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:02:08 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <88fe050a-0620-c580-fe6a-9614dd7ceaa7@dcrocker.net> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> <88fe050a-0620-c580-fe6a-9614dd7ceaa7@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <5c473699-7dec-c3f9-8616-060cae3f116a@3kitty.org> Yes, your frustration with lack of interest in defining such network standards is the same thing I experienced back in the 70s with "structure" in email.? I think this is the tip of the iceberg though.? It's not just "these kind of functions" for "mail" that has lost attention.?? For example, right now we all have been spending a lot of time at home, and even the major news networks are using remote interaction technology to bring their guests and even anchors together from their homes.?? We can all see the way the technology works on the network news shows -- lots of pixelization, tearing of video images, garbled and dropped audio, et al. Does that mean the Internet is not working today??? Back in the 1980s, one of the scenarios driving Internet development was a military one -- soldiers in the field interacting with commanders at bases and even the Pentagon, with multimedia human interfaces.?? So the commander might say "Battalion X move now to this location; we'll shortly be bombing this area here." while pointing with his mouse at places on the map being displayed on his tablet, linked of course to similar ones in the field.?? Of course synchronization and accuracy of the video/image/audio was very critical.? I remember Vint clearly explaining this at one of the 80s meetings. If we had built a protoype then that worked like the systems we see on TV today, our chances for funding next year would have been in serious trouble. There was a lot done circa 80s to implement first-cut standards for such functionality.? TCP was split into TCP/IP and UDP introduced.? The IP header was defined to include a Type-Of_Service field.?? Lots of thinking went in to how to run multiple routing mechanisms over the same Internet infrastructure, so that traffic would be prioritized and handled appropriately for a mix of text, audio, images, etc. (Video was excluded as just too hard for 56 kilobit lines).?? Experiments were done trying out protocols and mechanisms to carry real-time interactive multimedia.?? Progress was being made. Forty years later, the Internet is everywhere, and bandwidth is now cheap and fairly pervasive.?? But the talking heads on TV look and sound fine coming in from their homes -- until they move around and start talking.?? I can guess why that happens -- movement and action demands more IP traffic.?? The anchors apologize for the "technical difficulties" and the show goes on. I'm not sure if anybody considers this "broken", or has much interest in fixing it.? It seems more likely that everyone has now been indoctrinated that such behavior is normal and expected.?? Just live with it and order more equipment and fiber.? It might help.?? Distributed, open standards??? Who has time for that? The Concept was great.? The Reality?? You decide.?? I just wonder what happened over those 40 years to get from there to where we are today. AFAIK, there's no way for you to give a "thumbs up" or whatever reaction you have at those TV shows either -- except by logging in to your favorite social media site and typing away. Or tweeting.... /Jack On 7/14/20 1:06 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 7/14/2020 12:40 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> Fifty years later, I can see some of that kind of >> functionality operating now, in various kinds of online forums, and >> social media sites.? But, AFAIK, all of these contemporary mechanisms >> are single-site in nature.? A user must connect to each individual site >> to join that conversation, and "cross-posting" is often discouraged or >> impossible. >> >> There is no endemic and widespread standard for supporting the more >> complex interactions of Licks' vision, although technologies such as XML >> and MQTT seem (to me at least) to be now filling in some of the >> pieces. > > There were some efforts do do structured 'workflow' and the like, over > email, but yes, in a proprietary fashion.? If remember, Winograd > participated in the Higgins system product.? What I've taken from the > history of problems these efforts had is that the enhancements need to > be optional, rather than coercive. > > It's been frustrating to see the apparent lack of interest in > distributed, open standards for these kinds of functions. > > I keep think that widespread frustrations with the operations of the > major social networking sites might be a useful motivator for a > careful effort to replicate social/busines/etc. messaging-based > functionality on top of email.? So far, I haven't found a set of folk > interested in working on that, though. > > By way of the smallest example, I keep finding myself reading a > posting to a mailing list and wanting to signal a simple thumbs up > icon.? Or sadness, or.? And it would be such a simple standard to > write and implement, if only the MUA builders were interested... > > d/ > From geoff at iconia.com Tue Jul 14 15:08:13 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:08:13 -1000 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: <4c2bd8fc-6e82-dda5-421d-f7dff2d03dc9@dcrocker.net> References: <25742636-0b9b-95af-9413-761c7c0e7fbf@dcrocker.net> <6a3c8b24-dea1-d6ed-a70d-ad5e83280c89@dcrocker.net> <56111150-9ae0-5866-20ac-aee2b5a38b41@3kitty.org> <4c2bd8fc-6e82-dda5-421d-f7dff2d03dc9@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: in 1996 yours truly helped German musician Jaye Muller and Jack Rieley (who was a producer and had managed the Beach Boys) launch JFax... it took in your faxes on a dedicated phone number and sent them along to you from their servers as an email attachment, viz.: *Expanding the Boundaries of E-Mail*By Sreenath Sreenivasan Sept. 23, 1996 https://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/23/business/expanding-the-boundaries-of-e-mail.html On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:46 AM Dave Crocker wrote: > On 7/14/2020 1:37 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: > > *BUSINESS TECHNOLOGY; E-mail Is Becoming A Cheap-Fax Network* > > By John Markoff > > July 21, 1993 > > > https://www.nytimes.com/1993/07/21/business/business-technology-e-mail-is-becoming-a-cheap-fax-network.html > > > > The dividing line between paper facsimile documents and electronic mail > is > > vanishing. > > > > Thanks to the volunteer efforts of a group of computer network designers, > > the network of networks known as Internet now permits users to send an > > e-mail message to be printed out on fax machines at a growing number of > > sites around the world. > > > Indeed, the interested produced a commercial standards effort, with > joint work done in the IETF and ITU, for fax over email, and the ITU for > fax over SIP. > > The first output from the IETF work was: > > RFC 2305 - A Simple Mode of Facsimile Using Internet Mail; K. Toyoda, H. > Ohno, J. Murai, D. Wing; March 1998 > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 14 21:14:48 2020 From: gtaylor at tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 22:14:48 -0600 Subject: [ih] Usenet query In-Reply-To: References: <659e1b0f-b6fb-1cab-a109-00823c29724c@tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <50b4f14a-e05a-bf10-3f3c-560239f7758a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/13/20 2:19 PM, Mark Goodge via Internet-history wrote: > FWIW, they don't. They set the header in one scenario only: when they > receive a message from one of their own users (via POST) that does not > have the header set. If the header is already set by the user, they > don't alter or replace it. And they don't add it, even if it is absent, > to a post received via IHAVE from another news server. Thank you for articulating what I meant better than I could. That's what I was trying to imply by transit vs non-transit. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From rogers at isi.edu Tue Jul 21 02:15:36 2020 From: rogers at isi.edu (Craig Milo Rogers) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 02:15:36 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > > The Stanford first TCP implementation was done in BCPL by Richard Karp. > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in > what language. Tenex was probably done in C at BBN. Was 360 done in PL/1?? > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > Other recollections much appreciated. The UCLA Center for Computer-based Behavioral Studies (UCLA/CCBS) had a PDP-10 (KA-10 running the TOPS-10 operating system) with a PDP-15 as an I/O frontend, connected by shared memory. The PDP-15 ran an in-house operating system. The NCP, part of that operating system, was written in PDP-15 assembly language, which was cross-assembled on the PDP-10. TOPS-10 extensions, written in the PDP-10 assembly language, Macro-10, communicated with the NCP on the PDP-15 to expose the PDP-10 as an Arpanet host; the PDP-15 was not itself listed as the host. At least, that's what I remember. It's been a while. Craig Milo Rogers From steve at shinkuro.com Tue Jul 21 02:52:16 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 05:52:16 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> References: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> Message-ID: Craig, Do you have dates for the CCBS system? Also, where was the machine, ie which building, and how was it connected to the IMP? Thanks, Steve On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 5:15 AM Craig Milo Rogers via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > > > > The Stanford first TCP implementation was done in BCPL by Richard Karp. > > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in > > what language. Tenex was probably done in C at BBN. Was 360 done in > PL/1?? > > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > > > Other recollections much appreciated. > > The UCLA Center for Computer-based Behavioral Studies (UCLA/CCBS) > had > a PDP-10 (KA-10 running the TOPS-10 operating system) with a PDP-15 as an > I/O > frontend, connected by shared memory. The PDP-15 ran an in-house operating > system. The NCP, part of that operating system, was written in PDP-15 > assembly language, which was cross-assembled on the PDP-10. TOPS-10 > extensions, written in the PDP-10 assembly language, Macro-10, communicated > with the NCP on the PDP-15 to expose the PDP-10 as an Arpanet host; the > PDP-15 > was not itself listed as the host. > > At least, that's what I remember. It's been a while. > > Craig Milo Rogers > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From bob.hinden at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 11:48:06 2020 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 11:48:06 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> References: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> Message-ID: <73CA2B9B-50A3-4004-BE09-27A73CDE7AAD@gmail.com> I did an NCP implementation for the BBN Pluribus (Lockheed SUE processor, I think) in assembly language, and a TCP in the Honeywell 316 assembly language. That was a long time ago :-) Bob > On Jul 21, 2020, at 2:15 AM, Craig Milo Rogers via Internet-history wrote: > > On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >> >> The Stanford first TCP implementation was done in BCPL by Richard Karp. >> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >> what language. Tenex was probably done in C at BBN. Was 360 done in PL/1?? >> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >> >> Other recollections much appreciated. > > The UCLA Center for Computer-based Behavioral Studies (UCLA/CCBS) had > a PDP-10 (KA-10 running the TOPS-10 operating system) with a PDP-15 as an I/O > frontend, connected by shared memory. The PDP-15 ran an in-house operating > system. The NCP, part of that operating system, was written in PDP-15 > assembly language, which was cross-assembled on the PDP-10. TOPS-10 > extensions, written in the PDP-10 assembly language, Macro-10, communicated > with the NCP on the PDP-15 to expose the PDP-10 as an Arpanet host; the PDP-15 > was not itself listed as the host. > > At least, that's what I remember. It's been a while. > > Craig Milo Rogers > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From bob.hinden at gmail.com Tue Jul 21 11:49:41 2020 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 11:49:41 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <73CA2B9B-50A3-4004-BE09-27A73CDE7AAD@gmail.com> References: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> <73CA2B9B-50A3-4004-BE09-27A73CDE7AAD@gmail.com> Message-ID: Never mind, I see I answered this earlier :-( Bob > On Jul 21, 2020, at 11:48 AM, Bob Hinden wrote: > > I did an NCP implementation for the BBN Pluribus (Lockheed SUE processor, I think) in assembly language, and a TCP in the Honeywell 316 assembly language. That was a long time ago :-) > > Bob > > >> On Jul 21, 2020, at 2:15 AM, Craig Milo Rogers via Internet-history wrote: >> >> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>> >>> The Stanford first TCP implementation was done in BCPL by Richard Karp. >>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >>> what language. Tenex was probably done in C at BBN. Was 360 done in PL/1?? >>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >>> >>> Other recollections much appreciated. >> >> The UCLA Center for Computer-based Behavioral Studies (UCLA/CCBS) had >> a PDP-10 (KA-10 running the TOPS-10 operating system) with a PDP-15 as an I/O >> frontend, connected by shared memory. The PDP-15 ran an in-house operating >> system. The NCP, part of that operating system, was written in PDP-15 >> assembly language, which was cross-assembled on the PDP-10. TOPS-10 >> extensions, written in the PDP-10 assembly language, Macro-10, communicated >> with the NCP on the PDP-15 to expose the PDP-10 as an Arpanet host; the PDP-15 >> was not itself listed as the host. >> >> At least, that's what I remember. It's been a while. >> >> Craig Milo Rogers >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 21 18:43:36 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 21:43:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations Message-ID: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > ... > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in > what language. I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some additional data (I think). It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that TCP, if anyone wants it. I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc were written for the -11/03. > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I used as the base on one I did for Bridge. The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. Noel From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Jul 21 19:44:48 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 19:44:48 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: More recollections -- Jim Mathis' TCP implementation was done for use on top of MOS, the SRI OS which apparently ran on various PDP-11 based devices such as the Packet Radios, Port Expanders, et al.? We used it at BBN in LSI-11 based systems. Jim's MOS-hosted TCP was what I received at ARPA's direction in 1977, to use as a basis for implementing the first Unix TCP.?? I used a lot of Jim's code that did the TCP state diagrams, buffer management, "Transmission Control Block", etc., but of course had to change all of the system and "user" interface code.? Everything was in Macro-11 assembler, although I used a PDP-10 (Tenex) to cross-compile for the 11/40 where Unix ran.? I don't think I had to do much if anything to make the Macro-11 code able to assemble using the PDP-10 tools. It might be interesting to compare Jim's TCP with my Unix version to see how much "common DNA" remained.?? My code is an old paper listing though, so it won't be as simple as just running 'diff' on the two. Dave Mills "fuzzballs" were -11 based and also had TCP.?? But I don't recall ever knowing whether that was an implementation from scratch, or if it was also derived from Jim's code. /Jack On 7/21/20 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > > ... > > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in > > what language. > > I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > additional data (I think). > > It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. > After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in > it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that > TCP, if anyone wants it. > > I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other > software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) > early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we > had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if > it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 > and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc > were written for the -11/03. > > > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the > Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the > Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also > worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my > failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto > one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I > used as the base on one I did for Bridge. > > The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR > machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > > Noel From rogers at isi.edu Tue Jul 21 20:34:56 2020 From: rogers at isi.edu (Craig Milo Rogers) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 20:34:56 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> Message-ID: <20200722033456.GB27710@isi.edu> On 20.07.21, Steve Crocker wrote: > Do you have dates for the CCBS system? Also, where was the machine, ie > which building, and how was it connected to the IMP? In the summer of 1970, CCBS was located in the basement of the Waffle building (Bunche Hall) while our new space was being built on top of Middle Franz Hall. We had a terminal line to a TIP that summer. By the summer of 1971, CCBS had moved to its custom-built home in Middle Franz Hall. I think it was on the ARPANet by then, although for some reason it didn't appear on the published chart immediately. I don't know what happened between summers; I was in high school then, and it's possible I'm off by a year. I think we had a DH interface, but I can't remember with certainty. It don't think it was LH, we were too far from the IMP. It was not VDH. UCLA-CCBS had a large funding contraction about 1975. Many of the staff left; some went to to USC/ISI. BY 1978, I think, the PDP-10 and PDP-15 were gone, along with the ARPANET connection, and most of the computer room was converted into office space for the Institute for Social Science Research. I migrated to USC/ISI in the summer of 1980. If Reginald E. Martin is still around, he may be able to give more precise dating. He's mentioned in: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc329.html and other RFCs, as our technical contact. Craig Milo Rogers From steve at shinkuro.com Tue Jul 21 20:40:08 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 23:40:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200722033456.GB27710@isi.edu> References: <20200721091536.GA27710@isi.edu> <20200722033456.GB27710@isi.edu> Message-ID: Thanks! On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 11:35 PM Craig Milo Rogers wrote: > On 20.07.21, Steve Crocker wrote: > > Do you have dates for the CCBS system? Also, where was the machine, ie > > which building, and how was it connected to the IMP? > > In the summer of 1970, CCBS was located in the basement of the > Waffle > building (Bunche Hall) while our new space was being built on top of Middle > Franz Hall. We had a terminal line to a TIP that summer. By the summer of > 1971, CCBS had moved to its custom-built home in Middle Franz Hall. I > think > it was on the ARPANet by then, although for some reason it didn't appear on > the published chart immediately. I don't know what happened between > summers; > I was in high school then, and it's possible I'm off by a year. > > I think we had a DH interface, but I can't remember with > certainty. It > don't think it was LH, we were too far from the IMP. It was not VDH. > > UCLA-CCBS had a large funding contraction about 1975. Many of the > staff left; some went to to USC/ISI. BY 1978, I think, the PDP-10 and > PDP-15 > were gone, along with the ARPANET connection, and most of the computer room > was converted into office space for the Institute for Social Science > Research. I migrated to USC/ISI in the summer of 1980. > > If Reginald E. Martin is still around, he may be able to give more > precise dating. He's mentioned in: > > https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc329.html > > and other RFCs, as our technical contact. > > Craig Milo Rogers > > From mbgreen at seas.upenn.edu Tue Jul 21 22:53:14 2020 From: mbgreen at seas.upenn.edu (Michael Greenwald) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 22:53:14 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> On 2020-07-21 18:43, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > > ... > > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not > clear in > > what language. > > I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > additional data (I think). > > It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro > capability. > After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of > goodies in > it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy > of that > TCP, if anyone wants it. > > I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and > other > software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander > codea) > early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until > after we > had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be > sure, if > it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the > -11/20 > and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the > TCP, etc > were written for the -11/03. > > > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for > the > Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for > the > Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he > also > worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my > failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. I think it may have been Charlie Hornig who you are thinking of? (he did early work on the Multics TCP implementation for Dave.) I did something of a rewrite, later. Those were user-ring versions. Lster, still, when it was passed to Honeywell, I moved it an inner ring (badly), and then was totally re-written, again, by J. Spenser Love. All those versions were written in PL/1. The user-ring versions of the Multics TCPs were definitely written before Dave wrote the Tripos BCPL versions. > The Alto > one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, > which I > used as the base on one I did for Bridge. In 1982-84 we also had a TCP written in CLU for our Swift operating system, which ran on vaxes and 680x0, but it was never used by anyone outside of the group. > > The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; > the CSR > machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > > Noel From geoff at iconia.com Tue Jul 21 23:05:26 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2020 20:05:26 -1000 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: can anyone recall WHO and/or WHERE it was that had their NCP (don't think it was TCP) implementation apparently running in "user space" as a job or process (as opposed to as part of the OS/Kernel) and "complained" how much it was co$ting them/their departments budget to be connected to the ARPANET? logic would dictate this must have been some department/research group/project that was dependent -- as paying "user" -- of a (university?) central computer facility that billed them for the NCP "process", say, as opposed to a group or lab that "owned"/had their own system...? geoff On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:53 PM Michael Greenwald via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 2020-07-21 18:43, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > >> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > > > > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > > > ... > > > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not > > clear in > > > what language. > > > > I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > > additional data (I think). > > > > It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro > > capability. > > After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > > timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of > > goodies in > > it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy > > of that > > TCP, if anyone wants it. > > > > I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and > > other > > software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander > > codea) > > early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until > > after we > > had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be > > sure, if > > it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the > > -11/20 > > and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the > > TCP, etc > > were written for the -11/03. > > > > > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > > > No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for > > the > > Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for > > the > > Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he > > also > > worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my > > failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. > > I think it may have been Charlie Hornig who you are thinking of? (he > did early work on the Multics TCP implementation for Dave.) > I did something of a rewrite, later. Those were user-ring versions. > Lster, still, when it was passed to Honeywell, I moved it an inner ring > (badly), and then was totally re-written, again, by J. Spenser Love. > All those versions were written in PL/1. > The user-ring versions of the Multics TCPs were definitely written > before Dave wrote the Tripos BCPL versions. > > > The Alto > > one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, > > which I > > used as the base on one I did for Bridge. > > In 1982-84 we also had a TCP written in CLU for our Swift operating > system, which ran on vaxes and 680x0, but it was never used by > anyone outside of the group. > > > > > The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; > > the CSR > > machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > > > > Noel > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 22 05:56:27 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 08:56:27 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: more/other memories On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 9:43 PM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > > > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > > ... > > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not > clear in > > what language. > Phil Karn and I had a C version in the late 1970s at CMU. I thought we had access to something called the portable OS stack from BBN[1] but I could be mistaken. We definitely had the V6 UNIX NCP from UofI and some early TCP RFCs. We were using a Z80 C compiler from Teletype Corp that Phil brought with him when he OYOC'ed. Tron McConnell and I had written a simple real-time system for the Mellon BUC-1 multiprocessor. IIRC We had prototyped it on a Multibus chassis that supported what we called tasks but really in today's world, was much more of a threaded model (Don Gregg may have been part of this too, he came to Mellon Institute at some point, but I've forgotten when). This TCP stack would become the basis for the code for the original CMU distributed front end, which was running multibus boards, but as I was leaving it was moving to LSI/11s and eventually Andy Bechetshiem's first 68000 multibus board (which he built in the EE Dept as an MS student). The original stack was incomplete at that time but basically worked well enough to talk to a few systems without crashing. There was a nascent Telnet that could talk to a couple of Vaxen, the 10s (and 20s), plus the UNIX boxes. At some point, somebody (probably Phil, Danny Klein, or one of the other PDP-10 folks) was messing with SUPDUP to try to talk to the 10s better, I don't remember the status of that other than an attempt to create it. >From a DNA standpoint, the Tektronix BLISS implementation for VMS was semi-based on this TCP stack. I had brought the C code with me to Tektronix. Stan Smith and I had to start over for VMS, but we definitely peaked at that code, as well as the later UNET code base from Borden and Shaw @ 3Com. CMU would take the BLISS code back and add features we never completed and distribute it as the CMU/Tek TCP stack for VMS (I still have the CMU/Tek version on a 9-track if I can try to read it sometime). Phil Karn would start over and created KA9Q in C and Z80 Assembler for his CP/M box originally to talk to all his packet radio gear. [1] The BBN memory may have been a later version I saw and I'm mixing that with the CMU stuff. Funny, what you remember. I don't remember the CMU stuff having the mbufs memory allocator but have distinct memories that BBN did, and trying to understand how it worked. From ocl at gih.com Wed Jul 22 06:49:15 2020 From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?=) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:49:15 +0200 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <632d2bbd-bfe9-ea70-7f6b-e84d4c6b4558@gih.com> On 22/07/2020 14:56, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: > Phil Karn and I had a C version in the late 1970s at CMU. And then Phil Karn's follow-up: http://www.ka9q.net/code/ka9qnos/ :-) Olivier From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Wed Jul 22 07:29:38 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:29:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <978074604.5475955.1595428178496@mail.yahoo.com> Geoff, Although neither exactly matches your description, you may be referring to RFC 425 by Bob Bressler (But my NCP costs $500 a day) or RFC 491 by Mike Padlipsky (What is Free?). Cheers,Alex On Wednesday, July 22, 2020, 2:36:03 AM EDT, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: can anyone recall WHO and/or WHERE it was that had their NCP (don't think it was TCP) implementation apparently running in "user space" as a job or process (as opposed to as part of the OS/Kernel) and "complained" how much it was co$ting them/their departments budget to be connected to the ARPANET? logic would dictate this must have been some department/research group/project that was dependent -- as paying "user" -- of a (university?) central computer facility that billed them for the NCP "process", say, as opposed to a group or lab that "owned"/had their own system...? geoff On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:53 PM Michael Greenwald via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 2020-07-21 18:43, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > >> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >? ? > > >? ? > Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > >? ? > ... > >? ? > Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not > > clear in > >? ? > what language. > > > > I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > > additional data (I think). > > > > It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro > > capability. > > After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > > timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of > > goodies in > > it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy > > of that > > TCP, if anyone wants it. > > > > I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and > > other > > software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander > > codea) > > early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until > > after we > > had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be > > sure, if > > it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the > > -11/20 > > and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the > > TCP, etc > > were written for the -11/03. > > > >? ? > Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > > > No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for > > the > > Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for > > the > > Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he > > also > > worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my > > failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. > > I think it may have been Charlie Hornig who you are thinking of? (he > did early work on the Multics TCP implementation for Dave.) > I did something of a rewrite, later. Those were user-ring versions. > Lster, still, when it was passed to Honeywell, I moved it an inner ring > (badly), and then was totally re-written, again, by J. Spenser Love. > All those versions were written in PL/1. > The user-ring versions of the Multics TCPs were definitely written > before Dave wrote the Tripos BCPL versions. > > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? The Alto > > one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, > > which I > > used as the base on one I did for Bridge. > > In 1982-84 we also had a TCP written in CLU for our Swift operating > system, which ran on vaxes and 680x0, but it was never used by > anyone outside of the group. > > > > > The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; > > the CSR > > machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > > > >? ? Noel > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From lars at nocrew.org Wed Jul 22 08:05:18 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 15:05:18 +0000 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: (Clem Cole via Internet-history's message of "Wed, 22 Jul 2020 08:56:27 -0400") References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wpn8n1tg1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Clem Cole wrote: > At some point, somebody (probably Phil, Danny Klein, or one of the > other PDP-10 folks) was messing with SUPDUP to try to talk to the 10s > better, I don't remember the status of that other than an attempt to > create it. Did the CMU PDP-10s have SUPDUP servers? I was under the impression SUPDUP was mostly used on ITS, WAITS, and Lisp machines. From clemc at ccc.com Wed Jul 22 08:24:35 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 11:24:35 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <7wpn8n1tg1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wpn8n1tg1.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 11:05 AM Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > Clem Cole wrote: > > At some point, somebody (probably Phil, Danny Klein, or one of the > > other PDP-10 folks) was messing with SUPDUP to try to talk to the 10s > > better, I don't remember the status of that other than an attempt to > > create it. > > Did the CMU PDP-10s have SUPDUP servers? I was under the impression > SUPDUP was mostly used on ITS, WAITS, and Lisp machines. > Possibly/must have been, but I don't remember using it locally. I knew about SUPDUP because of my CMU time, but my use of the PDP-10's there was always on a terminal in the CS terminal room, and my use of ITS was pretty much to run macsyma remotely over the ArpaNet. Someone like Dan Klein might know, I'll try to ask him. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 22 08:35:07 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 11:35:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations Message-ID: <20200722153507.C15E318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jack Haverty > I used a PDP-10 (Tenex) to cross-compile for the 11/40 where Unix ran. > I don't think I had to do much if anything to make the Macro-11 code > able to assemble using the PDP-10 tools. I think that may have been how the code was originally done, at SRI. When we first got it at MIT, Dave assigned some Sikh guy whose name escapes me to work with it, and he was working on it on LCS's Twenex, MIT-XX. I assume he was using whatever SRI had been using to assemble it. (According to sources I was just looking at, he seems to have added support for the LCS Version I ring.) When I startedworking with it, the DSSR (ex-Delphi) guys on the 4th floor at Tech Sq had brought up a DEC Macro-11 (in Macro-11) under Unix V6; I converted Jim's stuff (mostly MOS; more below) to assemble under that, and that too was pretty much 'assemble and go'. I never worked with the TCP - I did try and get the Port Expander working, but because someone who shall remain nameless, but I'm sure knows who he is, had done an analog hack on DM's ARPANet interface [something to do with grounding on the DH differential interface, IIRC], our LSI-11 ARPANET interfaces (the SRI design, that used a DRV11), which didn't include the opto-isolators of the IMP DH interface, wouldn't talk to the DM one, so that was the end of that! > It might be interesting to compare Jim's TCP with my Unix version to > see how much "common DNA" remained. My code is an old paper listing > though, so it won't be as simple as just running 'diff' on the two. I'll grub around in the dusty catacombs of that file system, and find the earliest version of the TCP, and put it up and send you the URL. > From: Michael Greenwald > I think it may have been Charlie Hornig who you are thinking of? (he > did early work on the Multics TCP implementation for Dave.) No, Charlie worked on it after Dave first got it running (e.g. for the bakeoff as ISI, a vivid memory, with the lights in the hallways out); it was Drew Mason who worked on it to begin with; more here: https://multicians.org/mx-net.html It's _possible_ that Bob Mabee did some design work on it before he left LCS, but Dave or Drew would be the only ones who'd know about that. Noel From dot at dotat.at Wed Jul 22 08:40:57 2020 From: dot at dotat.at (Tony Finch) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:40:57 +0100 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history can anyone recall WHO and/or WHERE it was that had their NCP (don't think > it was TCP) implementation apparently running in "user space" as a job or > process (as opposed to as part of the OS/Kernel) and "complained" how much > it was co$ting them/their departments budget to be connected to the ARPANET? Sounds like MULTICS. I read Mike Padlipsky's Elements of Networking Style a few months ago, and I'm fairly sure he had some choice words about Multics and ARPANET billing, probably the exact incident mentioned in RFC425? Despite the lack of index I found it at the end of chapter 4: > Again, the Multics NCP, in its reluctance to "waste interrupt time", > employed a specific process wake-up to handle the [ECO] command. When > the network bills tripled one week, the cause soon became apparent - all > those ECOs. Now even though it is not germane to detail just how much > trouble this one caused before it was finally resolved, the point for > present purposes should be clear: Even after protocols are properly > designed, documented, and implemented, problems can be engendered by > their use in ways not concieved of by the designers. Well that advice has aged well :-) Also, https://multicians.org/mx-net.html - section 2.2.1 NCP > The Network Control Program daemon originally ran in Ring 1 on the 645, > resulting in incredible amounts of overhead and $ charges to the ARPANET > group for running the NCP. This stemmed from the fact that the ARPANET > was considered a research project at the time and not part of the > System. Later, as the ARPANET became more accepted, execution of the NCP > daemon functions was moved into Ring 0, and the greatest consumer of > daemon resources in the NCP, the handling of ALLOC (data space > allocation) messages, was done at interrupt time in the IMP DIM (in a > violation of what would later be understood as strict protocol layering, > but, heck, it saved $$ AND improved performance). Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ South Utsire: Northwesterly 4 or 5, occasionally 6 in southeast at first, becoming variable 3 or 4 later. Slight or moderate. Showers. Good. From geoff at iconia.com Wed Jul 22 09:54:27 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 06:54:27 -1000 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: thank you tony! this is EXACTLY the "situation" yours truly was trying to recall... :D On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 5:41 AM Tony Finch wrote: > the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history > > > can anyone recall WHO and/or WHERE it was that had their NCP (don't think > > it was TCP) implementation apparently running in "user space" as a job or > > process (as opposed to as part of the OS/Kernel) and "complained" how > much > > it was co$ting them/their departments budget to be connected to the > ARPANET? > > Sounds like MULTICS. I read Mike Padlipsky's Elements of Networking Style > a few months ago, and I'm fairly sure he had some choice words about > Multics and ARPANET billing, probably the exact incident mentioned in > RFC425? Despite the lack of index I found it at the end of chapter 4: > > > Again, the Multics NCP, in its reluctance to "waste interrupt time", > > employed a specific process wake-up to handle the [ECO] command. When > > the network bills tripled one week, the cause soon became apparent - all > > those ECOs. Now even though it is not germane to detail just how much > > trouble this one caused before it was finally resolved, the point for > > present purposes should be clear: Even after protocols are properly > > designed, documented, and implemented, problems can be engendered by > > their use in ways not concieved of by the designers. > > Well that advice has aged well :-) > > Also, https://multicians.org/mx-net.html - section 2.2.1 NCP > > > The Network Control Program daemon originally ran in Ring 1 on the 645, > > resulting in incredible amounts of overhead and $ charges to the ARPANET > > group for running the NCP. This stemmed from the fact that the ARPANET > > was considered a research project at the time and not part of the > > System. Later, as the ARPANET became more accepted, execution of the NCP > > daemon functions was moved into Ring 0, and the greatest consumer of > > daemon resources in the NCP, the handling of ALLOC (data space > > allocation) messages, was done at interrupt time in the IMP DIM (in a > > violation of what would later be understood as strict protocol layering, > > but, heck, it saved $$ AND improved performance). > > Tony. > -- > f.anthony.n.finch http://dotat.at/ > South Utsire: Northwesterly 4 or 5, occasionally 6 in southeast at first, > becoming variable 3 or 4 later. Slight or moderate. Showers. Good. > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Jul 22 10:47:36 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 10:47:36 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200722153507.C15E318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200722153507.C15E318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5ff36024-5d4c-8085-b7c5-7c7e9c569d62@3kitty.org> We had a lot of trouble with LSI-11 devices inserted between a host and an IMP.?? Your experience may have been similar.?? I even wrote a note about the problem: https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien139.txt The 1822 spec was about how to interface a Host to an IMP.? People assumed the spec was symmetrical, but it wasn't.? An IMP had to do more than a Host.?? So you couldn't quite just plug two "1822" interfaces together and get it to work reliably. /Jack On 7/22/20 8:35 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > I did try and get the Port Expander working, > but because someone who shall remain nameless, but I'm sure knows who he is, > had done an analog hack on DM's ARPANet interface [something to do with > grounding on the DH differential interface, IIRC], our LSI-11 ARPANET > interfaces (the SRI design, that used a DRV11), which didn't include the > opto-isolators of the IMP DH interface, wouldn't talk to the DM one, so that > was the end of that! From geoff at iconia.com Wed Jul 22 11:27:23 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 08:27:23 -1000 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <69230300b48dfd79615036bd2ead953c@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: vis-a-vis *In a lighter vein, The Book has been called "... beyond doubt the funniest technical book ever written."* The Book, also, beyond doubt, perhaps, contains, in *CHAPTER 9 "Low Standards: A Critique of X.25" * the most laconic conclusion yours truly has ever seen: *Conclusion * *X.25 is not a good thing.* geoff On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 7:57 AM Don Hopkins wrote: > On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 5:41 AM Tony Finch wrote: > > > Sounds like MULTICS. I read Mike Padlipsky's Elements of Networking Style > a few months ago, and I'm fairly sure he had some choice words about > Multics and ARPANET billing, probably the exact incident mentioned in > RFC425? Despite the lack of index I found it at the end of chapter 4: > > > That?s an excellent and classic book! > > I quoted it on HN a while ago, in response to something Gumby posted. > > -Don > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19865180 > > gumby on May 9, 2019 | parent | favorite | on: Amazon S3 Path Deprecation > Plan ? The Rest of the ... > > I just now realised that if the web required two-way links there would be > no way to put them into books! > > Some context: > > Back when the www was first released the most common criticism was the > lack of back links. This is such a stupid and obvious deficiency that it > really wasn't worth even looking into a system that was an obvious > stillbirth. It wasn't just the "experts" saying this, but so many of them > did because it was just so dumb. So you've probably never heard of this > "world wide web" thing -- not only were there only one-way links, but it > had its own homegrown markup language dialect and instead of using an > ordinary protocol like FTP or even gopher it pointlessly used its own http > protocol. > > (Also back then there was this research protocol called TCP/IP, which was > another waste of time given that the OSI protocol stack was poised to > dominate the networks just as soon as a working one was written. I wonder > what the modern equivalents are). > > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19866389 > > DonHopkins on May 9, 2019 | parent | favorite | on: Amazon S3 Path > Deprecation Plan ? The Rest of the ... > > Pfff, TCP/IP will never succeed. It doesn't have enough layers! /s > > https://archive.org/details/elementsofnetwor00padl > > "The Book": The Elements of Networking Style: And Other Essays & > Animadversions of the Art of Intercomputer Networking, by M. A. Padlipsky > (1985) > > The World's Only Know Constructively Snotty Computer Science Book: > historically, its polemics for TCP/IP and against the international > standardsmongers' "OSI" helped the Internet happen; currently, its > principles of technoaesthetic criticism are still eminently applicable to > the States of most (probably all) technical Arts-all this and Cover > Cartoons, too but it's not for those who can't deal with real sentences. > Standards: Threat or Menace, p. 193 > > A final preliminary: Because ISORM is more widely touted than TCP/IP, and > hence the clearer present danger, it seems only fair that it should be the > target of the nastier of the questions. This is in the spirit of our title, > for in my humble but dogmatic opinion even a good proposed Standard is a > prima facie threat to further advance in the state of the art, but a > sufficiently flawed standard is a menace even to maintaining the art in its > present state, so if the ISORM school is wrong and isn't exposed the > consequences could be extremely unfortunate. At least, the threat / menace > paradigm applies, I submit in all seriousness, to protocol standards; that > is, I wouldn't think of being gratuitously snotty to the developers of > physical standards -- I like to be able to use the same cap to reclose > sodapop bottles and beer bottles (though I suspect somebody as it were > screwed up when it came to those damn "twist off" caps) -- but I find it > difficult to be civil to advocates of "final," "ultimate" standards when > they're dealing with logical constructs rather than physical ones. After > all, as I understand it, a fundamental property of the stored program > computer is its ability to be reprogrammed. Yes, I understand that to do so > costs money and yes, I've heard of ROM, and no I'm not saying that I insist > on some idealistic notion of optimality, but definitely I don't think it > makes much sense to keep trudging to an outhouse if I can get > indoor plumbing . . . even if the moon in the door is exactly like the one > in my neighbor?s. > > Appendix 3, The Self-Framed Slogans Suitable for Mounting > > https://donhopkins.com/home/Layers.png > > IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, > THREE LAYERS IS ENOUGH; > IF YOU DON'T, > EVEN SEVENTEEN LEVELS WON'T HELP > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_A._Padlipsky > > On the occasion of The Book's reissuance, Peter Salus wrote a review in > Cisco's Internet Protocol Journal which included the following observations: > > Padlipsky brought together several strands that managed to result in the > perfect chord for me over 15 years ago. I reread this slim volume (made up > of a Foreword, 11 chapters (each a separate arrow from Padlipsky's quiver) > and three appendixes (made up of half a dozen darts of various lengths and > a sheaf of cartoons and slogans) several months ago, and have concluded > that it is as acerbic and as important now as it was 15 years ago. > [Emphasis added] The instruments Padlipsky employs are a sharp wit (and a > deep admiration for Fran?ois Marie Arouet), a sincere detestation for the > ISO Reference Model, a deep knowledge of the Advanced Research Projects > Agency Network (ARPANET)/Internet, and wide reading in classic science > fiction. > > In a lighter vein, The Book has been called "... beyond doubt the funniest > technical book ever written." > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From gnu at toad.com Wed Jul 22 14:18:51 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 14:18:51 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: <39b44b34-9455-a6b0-7b12-8a4f43d0b9a6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <22560.1595452731@hop.toad.com> On 7/6/20 12:25 PM, Steve Crocker wrote: > > From mid > > 1971 to mid 194 I oversaw the first few years of the Speech > > Understanding Program. The goal was understanding connected speech > > input in a constrained task environment. 1,000 word vocabulary, > > standard American male broadcast speech in a clean environment. No > > requirement to operate in real time. There are traceable tracks from > > that work to today's Alexa, Siri, et al. I had a friend who worked on IBM's speech recognition effort on 360/370 mainframes back in the 1970s. She was based at IBM Research in New York State. For years, an easy test to see if a modern speech recognizer was derived from their code or data structures was to see if it could correctly recognize the word "Poughkeepsie"! John From karl at cavebear.com Wed Jul 22 16:06:56 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:06:56 -0700 Subject: [ih] Historical Tracing from Concept to Reality over 5 decades? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32c6847c-b4de-1ccd-ff96-dac01d5608d0@cavebear.com> On 7/6/20 12:25 PM, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > ... From mid 1971 to mid 194 I oversaw the > first few years of the Speech Understanding Program. During some of that period I ran some of the computers (PDP-11/45, PDP-11/79s) that were used by SDC's continuous speech recognition program. I remember Iris Kameny (sp) and Billy Breckenridge and one other person who had the most gawd-awful cigar-stunk sofa in his office. He did a lot of the stuff with "Crisp" on one of our 360 or 370 mainframes. Billy Breckenridge and I took over the soundproof room (designed by Lee Moho who I believe did a lot of work with our ACC "Santa Barbara Box", an IMP-IBM channel interface) as our out-of-sight (and sound) office (because we could control the thermostat and play our music really loud.) Our system was used as a prop in some silly movie with Peter Graves searching for Yeti. --karl-- From karl at cavebear.com Wed Jul 22 16:48:11 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 16:48:11 -0700 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS Message-ID: When I was at SDC during the 1970's I met Frank Heinrich (who eventually became my Best Man at my wedding.) Frank was a student of Dave Farber on the Distributed Computing System (DCS) at UC Irvine during the late 1960's. DCS used distributed services (via a ring network) to build the chunks of an operating system. It used a bid-and-contract system to bind the pieces together - if you needed file storage you put out a bid for storage and machines that had that facility would send back a response, with a cost. Then there was a contracting phase to bind the relationship. (IBM had to concede to DCS that IBM did not invent the token ring network concept.) Frank H. taught Dave Kaufman and me about DCS. That had a lot of influence on some of the things we were working on under wraps of government secrecy. Dave K. and I were fascinated with the idea of extending capability-system like protection domains, with privilege delegation, across the net to create encapsulated DCS-like network services. (This was before one of our consultants, Whit Diffie, did his public-key cryptography stuff.) I don't think that DCS had much of a practical impact on the net. That is, not until the last decade or so. That concept kinda went dormant for a long time. But it came back with the rise of HTTP/S based web APIs, such as in Amazon's AWS and many of Google's APIs to things like graphing tools and such. It has also come back with people using Docker containers as services that are created and scattered around the net as needed, often with DNS or a higher-level naming service used to locate and bind them. Is there a description of DCS that is better then the inadequate snippets and fragments that one finds occasionally? (BTW, I did a multi-hour interview with Dave Farber some years ago and a sizeable part was about DCS.) --karl-- From steve at shinkuro.com Wed Jul 22 16:55:45 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 19:55:45 -0400 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <353D9230-B41D-49A4-862E-A0876C9EB9A6@shinkuro.com> I knew a little about DCS, but not enough to answer your question. Historical note: I finally finished my PhD In late 1977 after a stint at DARPA and three years at ISI. I wanted to do a little teaching on the side. UCI said fine but asked if I would cover the distributed architecture course in addition to what I had mind. They had a problem because Farber had just left for Delaware, taking my brother with him. I taught the course and also recruited a couple of students to come to ISI. Paul Mockapetris was one of them... Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 22, 2020, at 7:48 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > ? > When I was at SDC during the 1970's I met Frank Heinrich (who eventually became my Best Man at my wedding.) Frank was a student of Dave Farber on the Distributed Computing System (DCS) at UC Irvine during the late 1960's. > > DCS used distributed services (via a ring network) to build the chunks of an operating system. It used a bid-and-contract system to bind the pieces together - if you needed file storage you put out a bid for storage and machines that had that facility would send back a response, with a cost. Then there was a contracting phase to bind the relationship. > > (IBM had to concede to DCS that IBM did not invent the token ring network concept.) > > Frank H. taught Dave Kaufman and me about DCS. That had a lot of influence on some of the things we were working on under wraps of government secrecy. Dave K. and I were fascinated with the idea of extending capability-system like protection domains, with privilege delegation, across the net to create encapsulated DCS-like network services. (This was before one of our consultants, Whit Diffie, did his public-key cryptography stuff.) > > I don't think that DCS had much of a practical impact on the net. That is, not until the last decade or so. > > That concept kinda went dormant for a long time. But it came back with the rise of HTTP/S based web APIs, such as in Amazon's AWS and many of Google's APIs to things like graphing tools and such. > > It has also come back with people using Docker containers as services that are created and scattered around the net as needed, often with DNS or a higher-level naming service used to locate and bind them. > > Is there a description of DCS that is better then the inadequate snippets and fragments that one finds occasionally? > > (BTW, I did a multi-hour interview with Dave Farber some years ago and a sizeable part was about DCS.) > > --karl-- > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From tte at cs.fau.de Wed Jul 22 17:48:44 2020 From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 02:48:44 +0200 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200723004844.GR13675@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Would also be interested if there was some more info on DCS. I am sure that basic communications primitives for distributed apps have been reinvented over an over similarily, but never tried to figure out their history. Just reminded me of a recent attempt to standardize them on the basis of discovery, synchronization and negotiation. Bidding based distributed applications have of course been used in the Internet industry much longer than what you see now. This round is just about use in "public" services. If you think instead of even 15 year or older large scale web applications implementations, they too worked on that scheme. E.g: rendering of a web page would be be done by a collector putting out bits for all the different parts of that web page, and or each part there would have been hundreds of nodes with the capability to perform the job and based on their load one would be selected to actually do it. And of course all this web stuff from the last 20 years was also based on distributed system designs from the decades in before. I remember CORBA as one of the IMHO (in)famous frameworks that i saw as late as the 2000'th but which i think attempted to wrap up those distributed communication paradigm designs into an OO architecture, when OO was still going up the hype curve (1991). On Wed, Jul 22, 2020 at 04:48:11PM -0700, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > When I was at SDC during the 1970's I met Frank Heinrich (who eventually > became my Best Man at my wedding.) Frank was a student of Dave Farber on > the Distributed Computing System (DCS) at UC Irvine during the late 1960's. > > DCS used distributed services (via a ring network) to build the chunks of an > operating system. It used a bid-and-contract system to bind the pieces > together - if you needed file storage you put out a bid for storage and > machines that had that facility would send back a response, with a cost. > Then there was a contracting phase to bind the relationship. > > (IBM had to concede to DCS that IBM did not invent the token ring network > concept.) > > Frank H. taught Dave Kaufman and me about DCS. That had a lot of influence > on some of the things we were working on under wraps of government secrecy. > Dave K. and I were fascinated with the idea of extending capability-system > like protection domains, with privilege delegation, across the net to create > encapsulated DCS-like network services. (This was before one of our > consultants, Whit Diffie, did his public-key cryptography stuff.) > > I don't think that DCS had much of a practical impact on the net. That is, > not until the last decade or so. > > That concept kinda went dormant for a long time. But it came back with the > rise of HTTP/S based web APIs, such as in Amazon's AWS and many of Google's > APIs to things like graphing tools and such. > > It has also come back with people using Docker containers as services that > are created and scattered around the net as needed, often with DNS or a > higher-level naming service used to locate and bind them. > > Is there a description of DCS that is better then the inadequate snippets > and fragments that one finds occasionally? > > (BTW, I did a multi-hour interview with Dave Farber some years ago and a > sizeable part was about DCS.) > > --karl-- > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- --- tte at cs.fau.de From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Jul 22 18:44:41 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2020 18:44:41 -0700 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f2ec466-e140-e68f-e11f-2f15ac6ec9d2@dcrocker.net> On 7/22/2020 4:48 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > (IBM had to concede to DCS that IBM did not invent the token ring > network concept.) IBM's token product came during my time at Univ. of Delaware, almost 10 years after the DCS work, and Farber had an IBM contract. They sent a senior tech out to present their token ring design to him and his students, all of whom were EEs (other than me). This was clearly an intent to get the august professor to bless their work. In spite of not being all that well versed in the fine-grained technical aspects of local area networking design choices, I could tell that their design had a basic problem: The Irvine ring had a cost of one bit-time per node the packet went through. The IBM insertion ring design imposed an entire packet-time per node. So much for scaling. After the presentation, it was interesting watching the discomfort among Dave and the other students, non-verbally negotiating who was going to deliver the assessment to the IBM person. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dave at farber.net Wed Jul 22 19:01:03 2020 From: dave at farber.net (farber) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:01:03 +0900 Subject: [ih] Dave Farbers DCS Message-ID: <14EB750C-C3CD-47FB-A620-8646359194AF@farber.net> Your note in internet history motivated to look into my files and retrieve papers on DCS. It was a seminal research effort which developed many of the ideas that evolved into the basis of modern computing. It also created a great set of grad students (somewhat hard to handle but that was great). If I don?t find good papers I will create a video chat on DCS with some of the students that were involved. Stay tuned Dave David J. Farber Distinguished Professor and Co-Director of the Cyber Civilization Research Center Keio University Tokyo Japan https://www.ccrc.keio.ac.jp From bortzmeyer at nic.fr Thu Jul 23 05:02:04 2020 From: bortzmeyer at nic.fr (Stephane Bortzmeyer) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:02:04 +0200 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors Message-ID: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the ARPAnet look like? Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates back to 1960. From york at isoc.org Thu Jul 23 05:14:37 2020 From: york at isoc.org (Dan York) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:14:37 +0000 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS In-Reply-To: <20200723004844.GR13675@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> References: <20200723004844.GR13675@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de> Message-ID: <61093DF5-4550-4AA7-95D7-EAC4C4BBECE1@isoc.org> > On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote: > > Would also be interested if there was some more info on DCS. To that end, if anyone has any pointers to more information about DCS, I would be glad to add some info to relevant pages of Wikipedia so that others might find out and learn more about it.[1] There is not currently a page about ?Distributed Computing System (DCS)? specifically, and the only brief mention I found was in the second paragraph under Career on Dave Farber?s page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_J._Farber At the very least, it might be useful to expand a little bit more on that page. If anyone has pointers to papers or articles, that would be helpful. For any text added to Wikipedia, there should be citations to ?reliable sources? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources Regards, Dan [1] During the pandemic, I?ve found myself diving deeper into Wikipedia editing as part of my own way of dealing with all that is going on around us. From cabo at tzi.org Thu Jul 23 05:47:28 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:47:28 +0200 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: <1BED3CA8-6642-41DB-BE39-84D24ECA65EA@tzi.org> On 2020-07-23, at 14:02, Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history wrote: > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the ARPAnet look like? I wasn?t there, but BBN 1822 says (local host): "The Host cable supplied with the 516 IMP and the Pluribus IMP is 30 feet long and contains 12 RG 174/U coaxial conductors with grounded shields. Host personnel must provide an appropriate connector for the Host end of the cable." "The Host cable supplied with the 316 IMP is 30 feet long and contains 32 twisted pairs. The cable is terminated at the IMP end with a paddle card which plugs directly into the 316 Host interface. Each pair of the cable consists of a colored wire and a black wire numbered with the pin number of the paddle card to which the colored wire is connected. All black wires connect to the paddle card signal ground. Host personnel must provide an appropriate connector for the Host end of the cable." The interface had a four-way handshake per bit (3 lines + a separate end of message signal), and was based on 0V/5V signals (*). Distant host was differential -6V/6V. Fortunately, at the time, most people working in this space had the EE degree to be able to work with this :-) Gr??e, Carsten (*) "All Host-IMP logic signals (Data, Ready-For-Next-Bit, There's-Your-Bit, Last Bit) are unbalanced, source-terminated lines with a nominal characteristic impedance of 68 ohms. The line is terminated at the driving end with the characteristic impedance. The receiver is ideally an open circuit; in practice, TTL gate. In this scheme a voltage step of half the nominal level is propagated from source to receiver. At the receiver, it is reflected by the high impedance termination, resulting in a full level step at the receiver and another half level step propagating back to the source, where it is absorbed by the termination.? "The IMP will properly receive 5-volt logic signals; however, signals from the IMP may go to 6 volts. Therefore, the Host must provide a voltage divider, if these signals are to be received by normal 5-volt logic, to prevent destruction of the receiving circuit." From agmalis at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 06:06:06 2020 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:06:06 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: Stephane, See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf , particularly section 4 and Appendices B-D for a complete description. I've also been searching for an image of the actual connector, but have been unable to find it. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > ARPAnet look like? > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > back to 1960. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Thu Jul 23 06:12:45 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:12:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: <1497811355.6012344.1595509965222@mail.yahoo.com> As mentioned in another post, BBN supplied the cable and specified the signals, but it was up to each Host to supply its own connector. Cheers,Alex On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 9:06:31 AM EDT, Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history wrote: Stephane, See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf , particularly section 4 and Appendices B-D for a complete description. I've also been searching for an image of the actual connector, but have been unable to find it. Cheers, Andy On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > ARPAnet look like? > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > back to 1960. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From cabo at tzi.org Thu Jul 23 06:12:58 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 15:12:58 +0200 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: <03351A0F-6AA0-4268-901F-7FB4D4ED45B2@tzi.org> On 2020-07-23, at 15:06, Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history wrote: > > See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf , particularly > section 4 and Appendices B-D for a complete description. Archive.org has an OCRed version for easier searching and copy-pasting: https://archive.org/download/bitsavers_bbnimpBBN1_8769843/BBN1822_Jan1976_text.pdf Gr??e, Carsten From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Jul 23 06:55:40 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:55:40 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: Much of this has been covered already in responses to your note, but we can add a little more. The connectors were definitely NOT RS-232. The BBN team designed the connector. I believe they wanted it to be as simple as possible. It was bit serial, operating at 100 kilobits per second. The lines connecting the IMPs operated at 50 kilobits per second, so 100 kb/s was a reasonable fit. Making it run much faster wouldn't have made a noticeable difference in the overall performance. The interface was designed to operate up to 50 feet from the host. A different interface was designed later to operate up to, I think, 1000 feet. These were referred to as the Local Host (LH) and Distant Host (DH) interface. A third version was designed yet later to operate over unlimited distance. It was called the Very Distant Host (CDH) interface. I believe Severo Ornstein and Ben Barker were the key hardware people at BBN. Mike Wingfield at UCLA built the first host interface for our Sigma 7. All are copied on this message. BBN Report 1822 has the details, as reported in other messages. As noted, each site had to figure out how to connect the IMP into its host. This required a separate design and implementation at each of the initial sites, and thus it was indeed important to have competent EE people involved. After a while, ACC and DEC and perhaps others started to make interfaces available for various hosts. Steve On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > ARPAnet look like? > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > back to 1960. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From vint at google.com Thu Jul 23 07:04:26 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:04:26 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: at Stanford my PDP-11/20 was connected by VDH to an IMP in another building on the campus. v On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:56 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Much of this has been covered already in responses to your note, but we can > add a little more. The connectors were definitely NOT RS-232. The BBN > team designed the connector. I believe they wanted it to be as simple as > possible. It was bit serial, operating at 100 kilobits per second. The > lines connecting the IMPs operated at 50 kilobits per second, so 100 kb/s > was a reasonable fit. Making it run much faster wouldn't have made a > noticeable difference in the overall performance. The interface was > designed to operate up to 50 feet from the host. A different interface was > designed later to operate up to, I think, 1000 feet. These were referred > to as the Local Host (LH) and Distant Host (DH) interface. A third > version was designed yet later to operate over unlimited distance. It was > called the Very Distant Host (CDH) interface. > > I believe Severo Ornstein and Ben Barker were the key hardware people at > BBN. Mike Wingfield at UCLA built the first host interface for our Sigma > 7. All are copied on this message. BBN Report 1822 has the details, as > reported in other messages. > > As noted, each site had to figure out how to connect the IMP into its > host. This required a separate design and implementation at each of the > initial sites, and thus it was indeed important to have competent EE people > involved. After a while, ACC and DEC and perhaps others started to make > interfaces available for various hosts. > > Steve > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > > ARPAnet look like? > > > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > > back to 1960. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- new postal address: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Jul 23 07:06:46 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:06:46 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: Vint, What year was that connection established? Steve On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:04 AM Vint Cerf wrote: > at Stanford my PDP-11/20 was connected by VDH to an IMP in another > building on the campus. > > v > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:56 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Much of this has been covered already in responses to your note, but we >> can >> add a little more. The connectors were definitely NOT RS-232. The BBN >> team designed the connector. I believe they wanted it to be as simple as >> possible. It was bit serial, operating at 100 kilobits per second. The >> lines connecting the IMPs operated at 50 kilobits per second, so 100 kb/s >> was a reasonable fit. Making it run much faster wouldn't have made a >> noticeable difference in the overall performance. The interface was >> designed to operate up to 50 feet from the host. A different interface >> was >> designed later to operate up to, I think, 1000 feet. These were referred >> to as the Local Host (LH) and Distant Host (DH) interface. A third >> version was designed yet later to operate over unlimited distance. It was >> called the Very Distant Host (CDH) interface. >> >> I believe Severo Ornstein and Ben Barker were the key hardware people at >> BBN. Mike Wingfield at UCLA built the first host interface for our Sigma >> 7. All are copied on this message. BBN Report 1822 has the details, as >> reported in other messages. >> >> As noted, each site had to figure out how to connect the IMP into its >> host. This required a separate design and implementation at each of the >> initial sites, and thus it was indeed important to have competent EE >> people >> involved. After a while, ACC and DEC and perhaps others started to make >> interfaces available for various hosts. >> >> Steve >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >> > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 >> > >> > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the >> > ARPAnet look like? >> > >> > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates >> > back to 1960. >> > -- >> > Internet-history mailing list >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > new postal address: > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > Reston, VA 20190 > > > From bortzmeyer at nic.fr Thu Jul 23 07:07:29 2020 From: bortzmeyer at nic.fr (Stephane Bortzmeyer) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 16:07:29 +0200 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: <20200723140729.GA31710@nic.fr> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 09:55:40AM -0400, Steve Crocker wrote a message of 96 lines which said: > Much of this has been covered already in responses to your note, but we can > add a little more. Thanks to everyone, I forwarded the answers to the OP. From vint at google.com Thu Jul 23 07:08:35 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:08:35 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: 1973 most likely; certainly no later than 1974. v On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:06 AM Steve Crocker wrote: > Vint, > > What year was that connection established? > > Steve > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:04 AM Vint Cerf wrote: > >> at Stanford my PDP-11/20 was connected by VDH to an IMP in another >> building on the campus. >> >> v >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:56 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> Much of this has been covered already in responses to your note, but we >>> can >>> add a little more. The connectors were definitely NOT RS-232. The BBN >>> team designed the connector. I believe they wanted it to be as simple as >>> possible. It was bit serial, operating at 100 kilobits per second. The >>> lines connecting the IMPs operated at 50 kilobits per second, so 100 kb/s >>> was a reasonable fit. Making it run much faster wouldn't have made a >>> noticeable difference in the overall performance. The interface was >>> designed to operate up to 50 feet from the host. A different interface >>> was >>> designed later to operate up to, I think, 1000 feet. These were referred >>> to as the Local Host (LH) and Distant Host (DH) interface. A third >>> version was designed yet later to operate over unlimited distance. It >>> was >>> called the Very Distant Host (CDH) interface. >>> >>> I believe Severo Ornstein and Ben Barker were the key hardware people at >>> BBN. Mike Wingfield at UCLA built the first host interface for our Sigma >>> 7. All are copied on this message. BBN Report 1822 has the details, as >>> reported in other messages. >>> >>> As noted, each site had to figure out how to connect the IMP into its >>> host. This required a separate design and implementation at each of the >>> initial sites, and thus it was indeed important to have competent EE >>> people >>> involved. After a while, ACC and DEC and perhaps others started to make >>> interfaces available for various hosts. >>> >>> Steve >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history >>> < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>> > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 >>> > >>> > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the >>> > ARPAnet look like? >>> > >>> > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard >>> dates >>> > back to 1960. >>> > -- >>> > Internet-history mailing list >>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> > >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >> >> >> -- >> new postal address: >> Google, LLC >> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 >> Reston, VA 20190 >> >> >> -- new postal address: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Jul 23 07:17:54 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:17:54 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723120204.GA16851@nic.fr> Message-ID: <1B40FE15-1F76-4B70-ABD0-985F4862DC95@comcast.net> About the same time, we had a VDH at Illinois to connect Purdue. John > On Jul 23, 2020, at 10:08, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > 1973 most likely; certainly no later than 1974. > v > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:06 AM Steve Crocker wrote: > >> Vint, >> >> What year was that connection established? >> >> Steve >> >> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 10:04 AM Vint Cerf wrote: >> >>> at Stanford my PDP-11/20 was connected by VDH to an IMP in another >>> building on the campus. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 9:56 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Much of this has been covered already in responses to your note, but we >>>> can >>>> add a little more. The connectors were definitely NOT RS-232. The BBN >>>> team designed the connector. I believe they wanted it to be as simple as >>>> possible. It was bit serial, operating at 100 kilobits per second. The >>>> lines connecting the IMPs operated at 50 kilobits per second, so 100 kb/s >>>> was a reasonable fit. Making it run much faster wouldn't have made a >>>> noticeable difference in the overall performance. The interface was >>>> designed to operate up to 50 feet from the host. A different interface >>>> was >>>> designed later to operate up to, I think, 1000 feet. These were referred >>>> to as the Local Host (LH) and Distant Host (DH) interface. A third >>>> version was designed yet later to operate over unlimited distance. It >>>> was >>>> called the Very Distant Host (CDH) interface. >>>> >>>> I believe Severo Ornstein and Ben Barker were the key hardware people at >>>> BBN. Mike Wingfield at UCLA built the first host interface for our Sigma >>>> 7. All are copied on this message. BBN Report 1822 has the details, as >>>> reported in other messages. >>>> >>>> As noted, each site had to figure out how to connect the IMP into its >>>> host. This required a separate design and implementation at each of the >>>> initial sites, and thus it was indeed important to have competent EE >>>> people >>>> involved. After a while, ACC and DEC and perhaps others started to make >>>> interfaces available for various hosts. >>>> >>>> Steve >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history >>>> < >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 >>>>> >>>>> Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the >>>>> ARPAnet look like? >>>>> >>>>> Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard >>>> dates >>>>> back to 1960. >>>>> -- >>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> new postal address: >>> Google, LLC >>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 >>> Reston, VA 20190 >>> >>> >>> > > -- > new postal address: > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > Reston, VA 20190 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From cabo at tzi.org Thu Jul 23 07:25:30 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 16:25:30 +0200 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sent from mobile, sorry for terse > On 23. Jul 2020, at 15:56, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > The BBN > team designed the connector. BBN 1822 mentions something like this connector for the imp side: https://www.infinity-electronic.hk/datasheet/dc-CN0966B10S05P6Y040.pdf This is for the 516. The 316 apparently had a paddle board (a PCB with holes for soldering in the cable that went into a card edge connector). Anyway, if you need a visual of an ?arpanet connector?, this PDF is probably close. Gr??e, Carsten From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 23 08:53:27 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:53:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors Message-ID: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alex McKenzie > As mentioned in another post, BBN supplied the cable and specified the > signals, but it was up to e\ ach Host to supply its own connector. That may have been the case at the very start, but when I was working with IMPs at MIT (roughly '78 on), things were different. The 3 different kinds of IMP interfaces (listed earlier; LH, DH, and VDH) were quite different, electrically. To start with DH (by far and away the most common), IMPs had a specified round 'female' plug (a mil-spec connecter, available from AMP - like the one in the URL Carsten provided - I think the axact part number is in the documemtation), mounted on the back of the IMP somewhere. (MIT had a 516 IMP and a 316 TIP, and later C30's, and I think the DH interfaces were all the same that way.) Usually the host interface used something like a Berg (IDE) connector on the PCB, into which plugged a short pigtail, on the other end of which was an identical female plug, which mounted on the back of the host. A male-male cable, using the same connector family, then connected the host to the IMP. (I recall, early on at MIT, being the person who learned to make those cables. There was a special tool which crimped the wires into the pins, and other special tools to insert and remove the pins to/from the connector shell. I have verified that host configuration for ACC LH-DH/11 and XQ/1822 host interfaces, and I'm pretty sure the ACC Multibus IMP interface was the same. The QBUS IMP interface from SRI was, I think, similar; I found documentation for it online at one point, but I don't have time to find my copy to check it at this instant. I know it had the male-male cable, I made one for it.) I'm not sure about LH interfaces (MIT only had one, on MIT-MC); that may have used a BBN supplied cable. Check the 1822 spec. The VDH interface used a modem, and I have this impression/memory that the IMP interface to that would have been the stock IMP/modem interface. What was on the host end would have been whatever was stock for the modem interface used. On the IMP end, I have a vague memory (from a day when we shut everything down to reorganize the rat's nest of cables around the IMP+TIP) that it was a hairy connector in which each pin was a coax job, with a ground shell around a center confuction - but don't depend on that memory. The Bell 30x modem manual may give the details. Noel From j at shoch.com Thu Jul 23 09:31:59 2020 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:31:59 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If Dave F. has an expanded bibliography available on DCS, that would be great! He knows a lot more than I do :). In the meantime, I do have handy a few pointers for anyone interested in some of the early work: --My PhD thesis (in 1979, over 40 years ago!) was mostly about the Ethernet, but the initial part included a review and taxonomy of almost 100 local computer network designs of the time, derived from hundreds of papers. The full thesis can be found at: https://ethernethistory.typepad.com/papers/1979-%20PhD%20Thesis.pdf The annotated bibliography was later published as a separate tech report: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/xerox/parc/techReports/SSL-79-5_An_Annotated_Bibliography_on_Local_Computer_Networks_Oct79.pdf --From the taxonomy, there were 19 DCS papers from 1970-1978. Distributed Computing System (UC Irvine): [Will, 1970] considered both control passing & empty slot [Farber, 1970] very early proposal, fixed size blocks [Farber, 1972] [Farber & Larson, 1972a] [Farber & Larson, 1972b] [Farber & Heinrich, 1972] [Loomis, 1973(7)] [Farber, et a!., 1973] [Rowe, et al., 1973] [Farber & Vittal, 1973] [Farber, 1974] [Farber, 1975a] [Farber, 1975b] [Rowe, 1975] [Lyle & Farber, 1976] [Mokapetris, et a!., 1977] [Farber, 1977] [Mokapetris & Farber, 1977] [Mokapetris, 1978] --Detailed info on the 19 citations are in the body of the bibliography (in either link above). --The thesis included a "compare and contrast" discussion; the section on circular networks first touched on the Farmer ring at AT&T, and then includes these comments on DCS -- as I understood it at the time: "b. Distributed Computing System (DCS) at UC Irvine. Following the publication of the Farmer and Newhall paper in 1969, there was further consideration of ring systems. In one early paper, Farber compared the relative merits of the control passing and empty slot techniques [Farber, 1970]; he initially endorsed the empty slot technique, and went on to plan the development of the Distributed Computing System at Irvine. For the first several years the design was still based on empty slots passing by each node [Farber & Larson, 1972a, 1972b; Farber & Heinrich, 1972]; only later did the detailed design return to the control passing strategy, reminiscent of the Newhall and Farmer work [Loomis, 1973]. Instead of using a bipolar violation to indicate passing of control, the DCS system eventually used a bit pattern to distinguish a special control token that could be passed among machines. A station with a packet to send would wait for the token to arrive, change 1 bit making it a connector instead of a token, then transmit its packet and regenerate the token. With one bit of storage in each node, the packet was -- in effect - pulled off the ring at the source ring interface (RI) as it was being sent. Instead of depending on a centralized loop supervisor to detect a lost token, however, DCS proposed a distributed method in which any machine might time out and try to recreate the token, and send a packet with it around the net. If two machines simultaneously tried to create a token and start sending, they would both be taking off each other's packets; further timeouts might take place, but the system would eventually stabilize. This application has led to a more formal treatment of the problem, cast in terms of mutual exclusion and access to a resource: given a set of machines configured in a circular topology, what form of distributed algorithm can they use to mutually agree that one and only one machine should be given access to the resource (i.e., that either the highest or lowest numbered host should regenerate the token) [Le Lann, 1977, esp. section 4; Chang & Roberts, 1979]. The DCS design also included at the hardware level the use of 16-bit process addresses, rather than specific host addresses; the intention was to allow position independent addressing, and even let processes migrate from host to host. Addresses were to be recognized by an associative name table in the ring interface at the destination host. The reality of this system was a bit less than its image. DCS really only supported three directly connected hosts, although various papers had illustrations showing many more [Mockapetris & Farber, 1977]. Furthermore, no process ever migrated from one machine to another. The 16-bit address was not treated as a flat process name space, but was hierarchically split to include a 4-bit host field, combined with a process ID. It was possible to start two equivalent processes on two machines, give them the same process number in their respective hosts, and then address a packet to both of them by using a "wild card" specification in the host portion of the address. But those processes were never able to move to a different machine. " John Shoch [With some apprehension, re-reading the section on distributed ring control forces me to comment on the Ethernet-vs-Token Ring battles that emerged later. I don't think DCS made this argument, but IBM tried to claim that TR beat Ethernet because a TR could have a "guaranteed, bounded access time, for real-time applications." We knew that was BS, and pointed out, "Yes, if a ring breaks or is just unplugged, you lose control. And to regenerate the control token, you may have to repeatedly resolve, oh, a collision! Sigh.] On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 6:13 AM wrote: > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Dave Farbers DCS (farber) > 2. Arpanet physical connectors (Stephane Bortzmeyer) > 3. Re: Dave Farber's DCS (Dan York) > 4. Re: Arpanet physical connectors (Carsten Bormann) > 5. Re: Arpanet physical connectors (Andrew G. Malis) > 6. Re: Arpanet physical connectors (Alex McKenzie) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:01:03 +0900 > From: farber > To: Karl > Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: [ih] Dave Farbers DCS > Message-ID: <14EB750C-C3CD-47FB-A620-8646359194AF at farber.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Your note in internet history motivated to look into my files and retrieve > papers on DCS. It was a seminal research effort which developed many of the > ideas that evolved into the basis of modern computing. It also created a > great set of grad students (somewhat hard to handle but that was great). If > I don?t find good papers I will create a video chat on DCS with some of the > students that were involved. > > Stay tuned > > Dave > > David J. Farber > Distinguished Professor and > Co-Director of the > Cyber Civilization Research Center > Keio University Tokyo Japan > https://www.ccrc.keio.ac.jp > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:02:04 +0200 > From: Stephane Bortzmeyer > To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors > Message-ID: <20200723120204.GA16851 at nic.fr> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > ARPAnet look like? > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > back to 1960. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 12:14:37 +0000 > From: Dan York > To: Toerless Eckert > Cc: Karl Auerbach , > "internet-history at elists.isoc.org" < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > Subject: Re: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS > Message-ID: <61093DF5-4550-4AA7-95D7-EAC4C4BBECE1 at isoc.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > On Jul 22, 2020, at 8:48 PM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > Would also be interested if there was some more info on DCS. > > > To that end, if anyone has any pointers to more information about DCS, I > would be glad to add some info to relevant pages of Wikipedia so that > others might find out and learn more about it.[1] There is not currently a > page about ?Distributed Computing System (DCS)? specifically, and the only > brief mention I found was in the second paragraph under Career on Dave > Farber?s page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_J._Farber At the very > least, it might be useful to expand a little bit more on that page. > > If anyone has pointers to papers or articles, that would be helpful. For > any text added to Wikipedia, there should be citations to ?reliable > sources? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources > > Regards, > Dan > > [1] During the pandemic, I?ve found myself diving deeper into Wikipedia > editing as part of my own way of dealing with all that is going on around > us. > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:47:28 +0200 > From: Carsten Bormann > To: Stephane Bortzmeyer > Cc: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: Re: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors > Message-ID: <1BED3CA8-6642-41DB-BE39-84D24ECA65EA at tzi.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > On 2020-07-23, at 14:02, Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > ARPAnet look like? > > I wasn?t there, but BBN 1822 says (local host): > > "The Host cable supplied with the 516 IMP and the Pluribus IMP is 30 feet > long and contains 12 RG 174/U coaxial conductors with grounded shields. > Host personnel must provide an appropriate connector for the Host end of > the cable." > > "The Host cable supplied with the 316 IMP is 30 feet long and contains 32 > twisted pairs. The cable is terminated at the IMP end with a paddle card > which plugs directly into the 316 Host interface. Each pair of the cable > consists of a colored wire and a black wire numbered with the pin number of > the paddle card to which the colored wire is connected. All black wires > connect to the paddle card signal ground. Host personnel must provide an > appropriate connector for the Host end of the cable." > > The interface had a four-way handshake per bit (3 lines + a separate end > of message signal), and was based on 0V/5V signals (*). Distant host was > differential -6V/6V. > > Fortunately, at the time, most people working in this space had the EE > degree to be able to work with this :-) > > Gr??e, Carsten > > (*) "All Host-IMP logic signals (Data, Ready-For-Next-Bit, > There's-Your-Bit, Last Bit) are unbalanced, source-terminated lines with a > nominal characteristic impedance of 68 ohms. The line is terminated at the > driving end with the characteristic impedance. The receiver is ideally an > open circuit; in practice, > TTL gate. In this scheme a voltage step of half the nominal level is > propagated from source to receiver. At the receiver, it is reflected by > the high impedance termination, resulting in a full level step at the > receiver and another half level step propagating back to the source, where > it is absorbed by the termination.? > > "The IMP will properly receive 5-volt logic signals; however, signals from > the IMP may go to 6 volts. Therefore, the Host must provide a voltage > divider, if these signals are to be received by normal 5-volt logic, to > prevent destruction of the receiving circuit." > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:06:06 -0400 > From: "Andrew G. Malis" > To: Stephane Bortzmeyer > Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history" > > Subject: Re: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors > Message-ID: > duU1Wb+4h3jVo3urax3sHBXZEkUSAxx6ow6y34io0MhcbKg at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > Stephane, > > See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf , > particularly > section 4 and Appendices B-D for a complete description. > > I've also been searching for an image of the actual connector, but have > been unable to find it. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > > ARPAnet look like? > > > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > > back to 1960. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:12:45 +0000 (UTC) > From: Alex McKenzie > To: Stephane Bortzmeyer , "Andrew G. Malis" > > Cc: "Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history" > > Subject: Re: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors > Message-ID: <1497811355.6012344.1595509965222 at mail.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > As mentioned in another post, BBN supplied the cable and specified the > signals, but it was up to each Host to supply its own connector. > Cheers,Alex > > On Thursday, July 23, 2020, 9:06:31 AM EDT, Andrew G. Malis via > Internet-history wrote: > > Stephane, > > See http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/bbn/imp/BBN1822_Jan1976.pdf , > particularly > section 4 and Appendices B-D for a complete description. > > I've also been searching for an image of the actual connector, but have > been unable to find it. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 8:02 AM Stephane Bortzmeyer via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > https://twitter.com/nielstenoever/status/1286254151874293760 > > > > Dear Internet History nerds, what did the connectors and cables of the > > ARPAnet look like? > > > > Were these serial cables? Seems likely because the RS-232 standard dates > > back to 1960. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 34 > ************************************************ > From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jul 23 09:35:30 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 09:35:30 -0700 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 10, Issue 34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/23/2020 9:31 AM, John Shoch via Internet-history wrote: > "Yes, if a > ring breaks or is just unplugged, you lose control. And to regenerate the > control token, you may have to repeatedly resolve, oh, a collision! Sigh.] When Dave showed me an card for the Irvine Ring, he explained that something like a quarter (or was it a third?) of the real-estate was taken up by token initialization... which used a contention-based scheme. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Jul 23 10:00:31 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 10:00:31 -0700 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <714d2556-7aa2-4410-d70f-1d5da34ea165@3kitty.org> On 7/23/20 8:53 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > To start with DH (by far and away the most common), IMPs had a specified round > 'female' plug (a mil-spec connecter, available from AMP - like the one in the > URL Carsten provided - I think the axact part number is in the documemtation), > mounted on the back of the IMP somewhere. I remember these connectors well, because of a strange experience I had involving them.?? They were big, sturdy, heavy, expensive military-grade connectors.?? I don't remember the part number though.?? Computer interconnecting cables in that era were often large and unwieldy.? E.g., the PDP-10 bus cables to interconnect processor, memories, storage cabinets et al were huge, and quite expensive. At one point in the 80s, I was in charge of a contract to build and deliver some equipment using the same connectors, in order to be compatible with the IMPs.?? We had a tight schedule, with the contract requiring delivery of the first units 12 months after signing the contract.?? Not expected to be a problem.? ? Except..... we quickly discovered that those particular connectors were readily available through the usual channels --- with a lead time of 60 weeks to delivery! ? Apparently such military-grade connectors are only built when needed, and unless we ordered 10,000 or so they wouldn't schedule a special manufacturing run.?? We should have ordered them before we submitted the proposal I guess. So much easier these days.? After all there's not all that many different flavors of USB physical connectors!? All available with one or two day delivery too. /Jack From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Jul 23 10:15:28 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 13:15:28 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <714d2556-7aa2-4410-d70f-1d5da34ea165@3kitty.org> References: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <714d2556-7aa2-4410-d70f-1d5da34ea165@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Equal pain on the long distance lines. They had to be ordered through AT&T Long Lines. Standard delivery time was nine months. In one case we ordered lines into and out of Boulder, CO. And then the intended site balked and said they didn't want to be connected. We wound up putting a TIP into a Dept of Commerce office building in Boulder. On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:00 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 7/23/20 8:53 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > To start with DH (by far and away the most common), IMPs had a specified > round > > 'female' plug (a mil-spec connecter, available from AMP - like the one > in the > > URL Carsten provided - I think the axact part number is in the > documemtation), > > mounted on the back of the IMP somewhere. > I remember these connectors well, because of a strange experience I had > involving them. > > They were big, sturdy, heavy, expensive military-grade connectors. I > don't remember the part number though. Computer interconnecting cables > in that era were often large and unwieldy. E.g., the PDP-10 bus cables > to interconnect processor, memories, storage cabinets et al were huge, > and quite expensive. > > At one point in the 80s, I was in charge of a contract to build and > deliver some equipment using the same connectors, in order to be > compatible with the IMPs. We had a tight schedule, with the contract > requiring delivery of the first units 12 months after signing the > contract. > > Not expected to be a problem. Except..... we quickly discovered that > those particular connectors were readily available through the usual > channels --- with a lead time of 60 weeks to delivery! Apparently such > military-grade connectors are only built when needed, and unless we > ordered 10,000 or so they wouldn't schedule a special manufacturing > run. We should have ordered them before we submitted the proposal I > guess. > > So much easier these days. After all there's not all that many > different flavors of USB physical connectors! All available with one or > two day delivery too. > > /Jack > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Jul 23 11:54:56 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 11:54:56 -0700 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: References: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <714d2556-7aa2-4410-d70f-1d5da34ea165@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <4ad4d779-e03d-8926-d00b-4337080b6496@3kitty.org> Yeah, lines were a problem everywhere too.?? I was peripherally involved in the 80s with an ARPANET clone that we deployed and then ran for a big international corporation.?? They tended to need IMPs and lines at sites in unusual places which made it even harder to get them.?? I remember one time a line was needed in some obscure country (one of the tiny countries in South America IIRC), and the quoted delivery time was something like 2 years.? Even that was a "maybe". As we engineers mused about alternatives like satellite circuits, the corporation solved the problem as big corporations do.? They simply bought the country's PTT operation.?? The line we had ordered was installed a few weeks later. It got better though.? I remember at some point we created a portable package (basically a PC, modem, and IMP, which were much smaller by then) that a salesperson could take on a sales call.??? A live demo was performed - e.g., by simply unplugging the phone line from the phone on the manager's desk, plugging it into the IMP/modem, and linking the node in as part of our demo network back in Cambridge.? Took literally a few minutes, and probably helped sell a few ARPANET clones during the 80s. IMHO, part of the History of the Internet involves the History of the Mundane - like connectors and lines. Fun times... /Jack On 7/23/20 10:15 AM, Steve Crocker wrote: > Equal pain on the long distance lines.? They had to be ordered through > AT&T Long Lines.? Standard delivery time was nine months.? In one case > we ordered lines into and out of Boulder, CO.? And then the intended > site balked and said they didn't want to be connected.? We wound up > putting a TIP into a Dept of Commerce office building in Boulder. > > On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 1:00 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > > On 7/23/20 8:53 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > To start with DH (by far and away the most common), IMPs had a > specified round > > 'female' plug (a mil-spec connecter, available from AMP - like > the one in the > > URL Carsten provided - I think the axact part number is in the > documemtation), > > mounted on the back of the IMP somewhere. > I remember these connectors well, because of a strange experience > I had > involving them.?? > > They were big, sturdy, heavy, expensive military-grade connectors.?? I > don't remember the part number though.?? Computer interconnecting > cables > in that era were often large and unwieldy.? E.g., the PDP-10 bus > cables > to interconnect processor, memories, storage cabinets et al were huge, > and quite expensive. > > At one point in the 80s, I was in charge of a contract to build and > deliver some equipment using the same connectors, in order to be > compatible with the IMPs.?? We had a tight schedule, with the contract > requiring delivery of the first units 12 months after signing the > contract.?? > > Not expected to be a problem.? ? Except..... we quickly discovered > that > those particular connectors were readily available through the usual > channels --- with a lead time of 60 weeks to delivery! ? > Apparently such > military-grade connectors are only built when needed, and unless we > ordered 10,000 or so they wouldn't schedule a special manufacturing > run.?? We should have ordered them before we submitted the > proposal I guess. > > So much easier these days.? After all there's not all that many > different flavors of USB physical connectors!? All available with > one or > two day delivery too. > > /Jack > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 23 20:38:46 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 23:38:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors Message-ID: <20200724033846.EB85118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steve Crocker > The BBN team designed the connector. As discussed, for the older LH interface, there is no standard connector? For the later DH interface, I'm fairly sure that they used an 'off the shelf' mil spec connector, available from Amphenol? (Report 1822 gives the Amp part number as 48-16R18-31P; the manual for the SRI PDP-11 ARPANET interface [available here: https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a037212.pdf if anyone is interested] gives a slightly different one, 48-10R-18-31S. That might be the female, to the above which is, I am pretty sure male, though.) The BBN team did design the interlocked bit-serial interface spec, with the Ready-For-Next-Bit and Theres-Your-Bit synchronization stuff. > From: Jack Haverty > those particular connectors were readily available through the usual > channels --- with a lead time of 60 weeks to delivery! So I'm curious - what did you all do than? :-) Noel From dhc at dcrocker.net Thu Jul 23 20:41:32 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 20:41:32 -0700 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <4ad4d779-e03d-8926-d00b-4337080b6496@3kitty.org> References: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <714d2556-7aa2-4410-d70f-1d5da34ea165@3kitty.org> <4ad4d779-e03d-8926-d00b-4337080b6496@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <585dcf69-6802-f434-222a-5b7edddd88d2@dcrocker.net> > IMHO, part of the History of the Internet involves the History of the > Mundane - like connectors and lines. At the first technical meeting of all the vendors involved with building MCI Mail -- national packet net and dial-in and printers all over the country -- on an aggressive schedule, Vint began by citing the scheduled public demonstration, 6 months hence. He firmly declared that we would meet it. He paused and then said "but if we don't -- but we will -- but if we don't -- it will be because of a problem with a connector. Around 3 or 4 am, the day of the public demo, we had a showstopping problem. Mad effort to fix it. When it was finally diagnosed, it was a connector. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Jul 23 21:19:27 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2020 21:19:27 -0700 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200724033846.EB85118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200724033846.EB85118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 7/23/20 8:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > From: Jack Haverty > > > those particular connectors were readily available through the usual > > channels --- with a lead time of 60 weeks to delivery! > > So I'm curious - what did you all do than? :-) > > Noel I don't remember exactly, but as a bunch of network engineers we were used to scrambling around problems.? My suspicion is, since we were at BBN, there was a bunch of old hardware lying around, including many pieces of IMPs, sufficient to find the few connectors we needed for delivering some prototypes, with any production units coming enough later that the connectors would be there by then.? This was the same gang that caused a little bureaucratic crisis when a government inventory found one more IMP on the network than was supposed to exist - someone built one out of spare parts when it was taking too long to get a real one. /Jack From louie at transsys.com Thu Jul 23 21:40:21 2020 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 00:40:21 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <759D6F76-1348-4987-8BA4-C74127903CD5@transsys.com> On 23 Jul 2020, at 11:53, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > The VDH interface used a modem, and I have this impression/memory that > the > IMP interface to that would have been the stock IMP/modem interface. > What was > on the host end would have been whatever was stock for the modem > interface > used. On the IMP end, I have a vague memory (from a day when we shut > everything down to reorganize the rat's nest of cables around the > IMP+TIP) > that it was a hairy connector in which each pin was a coax job, with a > ground > shell around a center confuction - but don't depend on that memory. > The Bell > 30x modem manual may give the details. Well after the ARPANET/MILNET split, there were a number of IMPs installed as part of an NSFNET interconnection project. We had one installed at the University of Maryland at the time as part of this, interconnecting the ARPANET to the Phase-1 (Fuzzball-based) NSFNET and Phase-II NSFNET routers that were also colocated other parts of the same computer room. At that time, BBN had insisted we use the X.25 interface on the IMP, presented in the form of a 56K synchronous serial interface on V.35 connector. This was cabled to a synchronous null modem to provide clocks, with the other end intended for a MicroVAX-II. We had received a very early version of an X.25 interface for the Q-bus on the MicroVAX-II, with a V.35 interface. It was an early (prototype?) board and the designers of the board managed to get the pads for the V.35 connector mirror imaged on the PCB. So we had about a 1 foot long adapter cable with a V.35 male on one end and V.35 female on the other, with the wires twisted around to under the layout problem. Of course we tried to crank up the clock on the synchronous null modem to see how fast it would go. I don't recall if it was the IMP/PSN or the Q-bus interface that tapped out first. Turns out that X.25 was a bad choice for this application. The X.25 interface on the MicroVAX would need to signal a switched VC to the destination IMP/port to send packets to it. As you might expect, a router between the APRANET and NSFNET had.. quite the spatter of destinations on the ARPANET getting traffic. To the point that you'd start to thrash the limited number of simultaneous connections that the X.25 board would support. There was a later version of that board from ACC that worked out a bit better. I do recall that the BSD UNIX kernel driver for that board really was quite the thing to behold in all its complexity. On another note, the University never did get back its "loaner" LSI-11/73 CPU board used to upgrade of of the MILNET/ARPANET "mail bridges" from the LSI-11/23 CPU. Something about procurement processes and the Internet about to explode, again.. Fortunately, it had no asset tag on it and it wasn't missed. louie From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Jul 23 22:30:36 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 17:30:36 +1200 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS In-Reply-To: <2f2ec466-e140-e68f-e11f-2f15ac6ec9d2@dcrocker.net> References: <2f2ec466-e140-e68f-e11f-2f15ac6ec9d2@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: What was the date, approx? The Cambridge Ring (1974 onwards) avoided that particular defect by having a packet size of 4 bytes (2 byte address, 2 byte payload) so really it was more of a memory bus than a network. (Not that I ever worked on it.) Of course IBM didn't care about you people, they only cared about the S?derblom patent. Brian On 23-Jul-20 13:44, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 7/22/2020 4:48 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: >> (IBM had to concede to DCS that IBM did not invent the token ring >> network concept.) > > > IBM's token product came during my time at Univ. of Delaware, almost 10 > years after the DCS work, and Farber had an IBM contract. They sent a > senior tech out to present their token ring design to him and his > students, all of whom were EEs (other than me). This was clearly an > intent to get the august professor to bless their work. > > In spite of not being all that well versed in the fine-grained technical > aspects of local area networking design choices, I could tell that their > design had a basic problem: The Irvine ring had a cost of one bit-time > per node the packet went through. The IBM insertion ring design imposed > an entire packet-time per node. So much for scaling. > > After the presentation, it was interesting watching the discomfort among > Dave and the other students, non-verbally negotiating who was going to > deliver the assessment to the IBM person. > > d/ > From cabo at tzi.org Thu Jul 23 22:42:04 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 07:42:04 +0200 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <20200724033846.EB85118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200724033846.EB85118C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9D630C00-3923-4F5C-8464-5F9A870A8D0F@tzi.org> On 2020-07-24, at 05:38, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > 48-16R18-31P > 48-10R-18-31S The PDF I cited explains it: 16R: Bayonet, Straight Plug, Meets MIL-C-26500 (USAF) 10R: Bayonet, Square Flange Receptacle, Meets MIL-C-26500 (USAF) P: Pin S: Socket (The one additional hyphen is spurious.) 18 = shell size (outer diameter 1.375 in = 34.925 mm) 31 contact points! MIL-C-26500 makes it possible to buy the thing today. Found one for approx $30 at mouser (plus the pins/sockets, sold separately!). And yes, special order? I think I?ll buy one for our little networking museum ? should be here by the time we can do face-to-face teaching again :-) Gr??e, Carsten From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Jul 24 04:06:37 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 04:06:37 -0700 Subject: [ih] Dave Farber's DCS In-Reply-To: References: <2f2ec466-e140-e68f-e11f-2f15ac6ec9d2@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <14be50f1-d300-bd46-656f-1a27b38c522e@dcrocker.net> On 7/23/2020 10:30 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > What was the date, approx? ... > On 23-Jul-20 13:44, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: ... >> In spite of not being all that well versed in the fine-grained technical >> aspects of local area networking design choices, I could tell that their >> design had a basic problem: The Irvine ring had a cost of one bit-time >> per node the packet went through. The IBM insertion ring design imposed >> an entire packet-time per node. So much for scaling. The IBM presentation in Delaware would have been somewhere around 1979-1981. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From clemc at ccc.com Fri Jul 24 07:47:17 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:47:17 -0400 Subject: [ih] Arpanet physical connectors In-Reply-To: <585dcf69-6802-f434-222a-5b7edddd88d2@dcrocker.net> References: <20200723155327.A663018C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <714d2556-7aa2-4410-d70f-1d5da34ea165@3kitty.org> <4ad4d779-e03d-8926-d00b-4337080b6496@3kitty.org> <585dcf69-6802-f434-222a-5b7edddd88d2@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 11:41 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > When it was finally diagnosed, it was a connector. > Love it. My lines are - Pure electronics work. Pure mechanicals work. Eletro-mechanicals always fail. - Step one, check the power supply - are you sourcing electrons? Step two, check the connector. From dan at lynch.com Fri Jul 24 10:30:35 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2020 10:30:35 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks while I was at SRI. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > ? >> >> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> >> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >> ... >> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >> what language. > > I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > additional data (I think). > > It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. > After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in > it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that > TCP, if anyone wants it. > > I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other > software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) > early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we > had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if > it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 > and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc > were written for the -11/03. > >> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > > No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the > Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the > Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also > worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my > failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto > one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I > used as the base on one I did for Bridge. > > The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR > machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > > Noel > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From cdel at firsthand.net Sat Jul 25 02:00:14 2020 From: cdel at firsthand.net (Christian de Larrinaga) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 10:00:14 +0100 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> Message-ID: <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. C On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks while I was at SRI. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ? >>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>> ... >>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >>> what language. >> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some >> additional data (I think). >> >> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. >> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix >> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in >> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that >> TCP, if anyone wants it. >> >> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other >> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) >> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we >> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if >> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 >> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc >> were written for the -11/03. >> >>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the >> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the >> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also >> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my >> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto >> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I >> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. >> >> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR >> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. >> >> Noel >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Sat Jul 25 03:38:47 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 06:38:47 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> Message-ID: Peter Kirstein's lab did an implementation for a PDP-9 but I don't recall whether it was in a high level language or assembler. Adrian Stokes might know. v On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 5:00 AM Christian de Larrinaga via Internet-history wrote: > I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at > Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL > compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started > using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. > > C > > On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > > The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather > than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it > was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe > Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks > while I was at SRI. > > > > Dan > > > > Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313> > > > >> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >> ? > >>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >>> > >>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > >>> ... > >>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear > in > >>> what language. > >> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > >> additional data (I think). > >> > >> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro > capability. > >> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > >> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of > goodies in > >> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy > of that > >> TCP, if anyone wants it. > >> > >> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and > other > >> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander > codea) > >> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until > after we > >> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be > sure, if > >> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the > -11/20 > >> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the > TCP, etc > >> were written for the -11/03. > >> > >>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > >> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for > the > >> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for > the > >> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he > also > >> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my > >> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. > The Alto > >> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, > which I > >> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. > >> > >> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; > the CSR > >> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > >> > >> Noel > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- new postal address: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From sob at sobco.com Sat Jul 25 03:41:50 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 06:41:50 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> Message-ID: <0AF5C33D-9FD0-46B1-BA7A-2A7B347A56E4@sobco.com> I think it was assembler if it is the version I used for a while Scott > On Jul 25, 2020, at 6:38 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > Peter Kirstein's lab did an implementation for a PDP-9 but I don't recall > whether it was in a high level language or assembler. Adrian Stokes might > know. > > v > > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 5:00 AM Christian de Larrinaga via Internet-history > wrote: > >> I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at >> Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL >> compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started >> using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. >> >> C >> >> On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >>> The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather >> than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it >> was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe >> Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks >> while I was at SRI. >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313> >>> >>>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>> >>>> ? >>>>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>>>> ... >>>>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear >> in >>>>> what language. >>>> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some >>>> additional data (I think). >>>> >>>> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro >> capability. >>>> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix >>>> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of >> goodies in >>>> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy >> of that >>>> TCP, if anyone wants it. >>>> >>>> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and >> other >>>> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander >> codea) >>>> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until >> after we >>>> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be >> sure, if >>>> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the >> -11/20 >>>> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the >> TCP, etc >>>> were written for the -11/03. >>>> >>>>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >>>> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for >> the >>>> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for >> the >>>> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he >> also >>>> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my >>>> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. >> The Alto >>>> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, >> which I >>>> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. >>>> >>>> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; >> the CSR >>>> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. >>>> >>>> Noel >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > new postal address: > Google, LLC > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > Reston, VA 20190 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Sat Jul 25 03:57:04 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 06:57:04 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <0AF5C33D-9FD0-46B1-BA7A-2A7B347A56E4@sobco.com> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <0AF5C33D-9FD0-46B1-BA7A-2A7B347A56E4@sobco.com> Message-ID: I sent a note to Adrian Stokes. v On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 6:41 AM Scott O. Bradner wrote: > I think it was assembler if it is the version I used for a while > > Scott > > > > On Jul 25, 2020, at 6:38 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > Peter Kirstein's lab did an implementation for a PDP-9 but I don't recall > > whether it was in a high level language or assembler. Adrian Stokes might > > know. > > > > v > > > > > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 5:00 AM Christian de Larrinaga via > Internet-history > > wrote: > > > >> I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at > >> Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL > >> compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started > >> using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. > >> > >> C > >> > >> On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > >>> The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather > >> than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable > it > >> was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I > believe > >> Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging > tasks > >> while I was at SRI. > >>> > >>> Dan > >>> > >>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313> <(650)%20776-7313> > >>> > >>>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> ? > >>>>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. > >>>>> ... > >>>>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear > >> in > >>>>> what language. > >>>> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some > >>>> additional data (I think). > >>>> > >>>> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro > >> capability. > >>>> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix > >>>> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of > >> goodies in > >>>> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy > >> of that > >>>> TCP, if anyone wants it. > >>>> > >>>> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and > >> other > >>>> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander > >> codea) > >>>> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until > >> after we > >>>> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be > >> sure, if > >>>> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also > the > >> -11/20 > >>>> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the > >> TCP, etc > >>>> were written for the -11/03. > >>>> > >>>>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) > >>>> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? > for > >> the > >>>> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for > >> the > >>>> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he > >> also > >>>> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name > my > >>>> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. > >> The Alto > >>>> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, > >> which I > >>>> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. > >>>> > >>>> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; > >> the CSR > >>>> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. > >>>> > >>>> Noel > >>>> -- > >>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > > new postal address: > > Google, LLC > > 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 > > Reston, VA 20190 > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- new postal address: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190 From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Jul 25 08:15:29 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 15:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> Message-ID: <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> The Packet Radio station software was written in BCPL.? barbara? On Saturday, July 25, 2020, 02:36:08 AM PDT, Christian de Larrinaga via Internet-history wrote: I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. C On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks while I was at SRI. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ? >>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>> ... >>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >>> what language. >> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some >> additional data (I think). >> >> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. >> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix >> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in >> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that >> TCP, if anyone wants it. >> >> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other >> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) >> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we >> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if >> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 >> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc >> were written for the -11/03. >> >>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the >> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the >> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also >> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my >> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto >> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I >> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. >> >> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR >> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. >> >>? ? Noel >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sat Jul 25 14:09:34 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 09:09:34 +1200 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <0AF5C33D-9FD0-46B1-BA7A-2A7B347A56E4@sobco.com> Message-ID: <60a4e32b-436a-29cc-d9db-b0510e5d6460@gmail.com> If that doesn't work, let me know as I am in touch with David Bates, who worked with Peter and Adrian on traffic minitoring. Their paper says: "The PDP-9 used for this work (known as PDP-9B) is connected to the TIP as a Host. It has 32K words of core (18 bit), a 256K disk and various other peripherals." doi.org/10.1145/1499799.1499882 Regards Brian Carpenter On 25-Jul-20 22:57, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > I sent a note to Adrian Stokes. > > v > > > On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 6:41 AM Scott O. Bradner wrote: > >> I think it was assembler if it is the version I used for a while >> >> Scott >> >> >>> On Jul 25, 2020, at 6:38 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>> Peter Kirstein's lab did an implementation for a PDP-9 but I don't recall >>> whether it was in a high level language or assembler. Adrian Stokes might >>> know. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jul 25, 2020 at 5:00 AM Christian de Larrinaga via >> Internet-history >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at >>>> Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL >>>> compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started >>>> using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. >>>> >>>> C >>>> >>>> On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather >>>> than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable >> it >>>> was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I >> believe >>>> Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging >> tasks >>>> while I was at SRI. >>>>> >>>>> Dan >>>>> >>>>> Cell 650-776-7313 <(650)%20776-7313> <(650)%20776-7313> >>>>> >>>>>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < >>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> ? >>>>>>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear >>>> in >>>>>>> what language. >>>>>> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some >>>>>> additional data (I think). >>>>>> >>>>>> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro >>>> capability. >>>>>> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix >>>>>> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of >>>> goodies in >>>>>> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy >>>> of that >>>>>> TCP, if anyone wants it. >>>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and >>>> other >>>>>> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander >>>> codea) >>>>>> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until >>>> after we >>>>>> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be >>>> sure, if >>>>>> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also >> the >>>> -11/20 >>>>>> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the >>>> TCP, etc >>>>>> were written for the -11/03. >>>>>> >>>>>>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >>>>>> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? >> for >>>> the >>>>>> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for >>>> the >>>>>> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he >>>> also >>>>>> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name >> my >>>>>> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. >>>> The Alto >>>>>> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, >>>> which I >>>>>> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. >>>>>> >>>>>> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; >>>> the CSR >>>>>> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Noel >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> new postal address: >>> Google, LLC >>> 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 >>> Reston, VA 20190 >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Jul 25 14:18:11 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 21:18:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <471960856.7148662.1595711891290@mail.yahoo.com> Maybe people would also like to know what language the gateway software used in the SAC Mobile IP experiments was written in.? It was in C.? barbara? On Saturday, July 25, 2020, 11:31:10 AM PDT, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: The Packet Radio station software was written in BCPL.? barbara? ? ? On Saturday, July 25, 2020, 02:36:08 AM PDT, Christian de Larrinaga via Internet-history wrote:? I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. C On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks while I was at SRI. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ? >>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>> ... >>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >>> what language. >> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some >> additional data (I think). >> >> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. >> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix >> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in >> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that >> TCP, if anyone wants it. >> >> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other >> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) >> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we >> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if >> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 >> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc >> were written for the -11/03. >> >>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the >> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the >> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also >> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my >> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto >> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I >> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. >> >> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR >> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. >> >>? ? Noel >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Jul 25 16:36:19 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2020 23:36:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <471960856.7148662.1595711891290@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> <471960856.7148662.1595711891290@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <87822725.7187458.1595720179067@mail.yahoo.com> Don Provan is not on this mailing list. I sent him email and he confirmed he wrote a TCP/IP implementation in Macro-10 for TOPS-10. barbara? From dan at lynch.com Sun Jul 26 16:07:30 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 16:07:30 -0700 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> References: <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> Message-ID: <6ED109C8-1EA6-4E60-9C4C-E12585503A1A@lynch.com> The work I was describing was done in 1975/76. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Jul 25, 2020, at 2:00 AM, Christian de Larrinaga wrote: > > ?I didn't know about the BCPL coding for Tenex. I recall Prof Elliot at Cambridge asking if I'd come and work for his company which sold a BCPL compiler as I'd established BCPL with a number of developers who started using Alto and later SiriusB micros in around 1981/2. > > C > >> On 24/07/2020 18:30, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> The original TCP for Tenex was written in BCPL in user space (rather than in the underlying system space) and once it was reasonably stable it was converted to Macro-10 so it could be folded into the system. I believe Bill Plummer (RIP) did all that work. I helped him in the debugging tasks while I was at SRI. >> >> Dan >> >> Cell 650-776-7313 >> >>>> On Jul 21, 2020, at 6:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> ? >>>> On 20.03.10, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>>> >>>> Steve Kirsch asks in what languages NCP and TCP were written. >>>> ... >>>> Another version was written for PDP-11/23 by Jim Mathis but not clear in >>>> what language. >>> I think I answered this when it was first posted, but I now have some >>> additional data (I think). >>> >>> It was written in MACRO-11; PDP-11 assembler with a powerful macro capability. >>> After some poking around in a copy of the file system of the v6 Unix >>> timesharing system of the CSR group at MIT, which has all sort of goodies in >>> it (including a copy of the NCP for v6 Unix), I have recovered a copy of that >>> TCP, if anyone wants it. >>> >>> I'm not sure if it was done for the -11/23; we got MOS (Jim's OS, and other >>> software, including the TCP and an early version of the Port Expander codea) >>> early on, and I seem to recall that the -11/23 didn't come out until after we >>> had MOS. I'd have to look up exactly when the KDF11 was released to be sure, if >>> it's important. MOS had conditionals to work on the -11/03 and also the -11/20 >>> and -11/40 (binary for the -11/40 will run on the /23). I think the TCP, etc >>> were written for the -11/03. >>> >>>> Dave Clark did one for IBM PC (assembly language/??) >>> No, but Dave did I think at least two others; possibly one in BCPL? for the >>> Tripos operating system from Cambridge, and definitely one in BCPL for the >>> Alto (MIT got several as a donation from Xerox). Before the latter, he also >>> worked on the Multics one (in PL/I) although someone else whose name my >>> failing brain can't remember at the moment worked on that before him. The Alto >>> one was later translated into C by Larry Allen for the CSR v6 Unix, which I >>> used as the base on one I did for Bridge. >>> >>> The one for the PC was done by John Romkey and David Bridgham, in C; the CSR >>> machine dump has that one too, if anyone wants it. >>> >>> Noel >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sun Jul 26 16:25:54 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 23:25:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <87822725.7187458.1595720179067@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> <471960856.7148662.1595711891290@mail.yahoo.com> <87822725.7187458.1595720179067@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <535875219.7467917.1595805954152@mail.yahoo.com> Regarding TCP/IP implementations in different languages,? I should also mention John Hight and I started work on a Navy contract to implement a gateway in Ada.? The time period for this effort was around 1983/1984.? ( I am not sure the time frame should include 1985 off the top of my head.) The compilers for the Ada language were not mature, and I think the released compilers still had not addressed Chapter 13(?) in the language definition.? Based on my memory, the project ended early due to a change in Navy personnel and their new interests.? Besides the software being written in Ada, the project's research focus was to address supporting the Navy's communication needs while under EMCON? (Emissions Control) . I didn't intend to send so many messages on this language topic but past projects keep popping up in my head as I think more on the language question.? barbara? From louie at transsys.com Sun Jul 26 17:36:56 2020 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2020 20:36:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: <535875219.7467917.1595805954152@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> <471960856.7148662.1595711891290@mail.yahoo.com> <87822725.7187458.1595720179067@mail.yahoo.com> <535875219.7467917.1595805954152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 26 Jul 2020, at 19:25, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Regarding TCP/IP implementations in different languages,? In this same topic, while at the University of Maryland, Mike Petry and myself did an implementation for the UNIVAC/Unisys 1100 series mainframe computers starting 1980 or 1981. It executed as a user-mode "batch" run (with real time scheduling priority) and communicated with other software running on the same system through a shared memory segment. It was implemented in UNIVAC 1100 assembly code and a proprietary systems programming language called "PLUS", that would look familiar to a Pascal or even PL/1 programmer. It eventually grew its external connectivity from synchronous serial interfaces (talking to a fuzzball) and later a (byte) channel attached Ethernet interface from Fibronics (K200 and K320 if I recall.) Good times. 36-bit, word addressable CPU with 1's complement arithmetic.. louie From vint at google.com Mon Jul 27 05:29:40 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 27 Jul 2020 08:29:40 -0400 Subject: [ih] NCP and TCP implementations In-Reply-To: References: <20200722014336.1288318C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2778585B-DC5E-4AA7-BD20-D2AF02519CE6@lynch.com> <485ed93c-f5e3-c82a-a23e-a8367c6b6c49@firsthand.net> <1594498487.7061643.1595690129370@mail.yahoo.com> <471960856.7148662.1595711891290@mail.yahoo.com> <87822725.7187458.1595720179067@mail.yahoo.com> <535875219.7467917.1595805954152@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien151.txt v On Sun, Jul 26, 2020 at 8:37 PM Louis Mamakos via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 26 Jul 2020, at 19:25, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > Regarding TCP/IP implementations in different languages, > > In this same topic, while at the University of Maryland, Mike Petry and > myself did an implementation for the UNIVAC/Unisys 1100 series mainframe > computers starting 1980 or 1981. It executed as a user-mode "batch" run > (with real time scheduling priority) and communicated with other software > running on the same system through a shared memory segment. It was > implemented in UNIVAC 1100 assembly code and a proprietary systems > programming language called "PLUS", that would look familiar to a Pascal > or even PL/1 programmer. > > It eventually grew its external connectivity from synchronous serial > interfaces (talking to a fuzzball) and later a (byte) channel attached > Ethernet interface from Fibronics (K200 and K320 if I recall.) > > Good times. 36-bit, word addressable CPU with 1's complement arithmetic.. > > louie > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- new postal address: Google, LLC 1900 Reston Metro Plaza, Suite 1400 Reston, VA 20190