From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Sun Jan  5 02:26:56 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (ycor via Internet-history)
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2020 12:26:56 +0200
Subject: [ih] List admin question
Message-ID: <4eaqethvwum2lc4nkffvnma2.1578220016749@email.android.com>

It is OK for me,


Happy 2020,

Brian, I am  Yannis, old boy :-)

from Demokritos 






Sent by Turbo-X device???? 4 ??? 2020 10:01 ?.?., ? ??????? Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> ??????:
>
> Is it just me, or is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history broken? 
>
> Regards 
> ?? Brian Carpenter 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list 
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org 
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history 
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Sat Jan  4 18:17:25 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Joe Touch via Internet-history)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 18:17:25 -0800
Subject: [ih] List admin question
In-Reply-To: <3095EE0D-3565-4B05-A5A2-681419A33A81@strayalpha.com>
References: <f953c9dc-ecea-2eac-1a03-8f6c37c99f46@gmail.com>
 <08DDE575-7D21-41A4-86F0-A2BDF382C5EA@strayalpha.com>
 <CAM9VJk2-Bi50dkcU+WvuQ04KEMT4bA1-aHmbmaKV5pai5OBH1w@mail.gmail.com>
 <3095EE0D-3565-4B05-A5A2-681419A33A81@strayalpha.com>
Message-ID: <83010A0F-914D-4B34-9E7E-8BC014257CDE@strayalpha.com>

FWIW - the website below is working, at least for me:
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>Joe


> On Jan 4, 2020, at 6:16 PM, Joe Touch <touch at strayalpha.com> wrote:
> 
> The archive is broken (not working). Not the list.
> 
> The archive actually has never worked since it has been relocated; the messages posted end on the date it was moved. 
> 
> Joe
> 
>> On Jan 4, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com <mailto:joly at punkcast.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> If it was truly broken, we wouldn't be seeing these messages!
>> 
>> But, according to https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/ <https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/> the last message was Oct 14, so something is kaput, for sure.
>> 
>> joly
>> 
>> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 4:21 PM Joe Touch via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> It isn?t you. I?ve noticed this since we moved to ISOC hosting and asked the sysadmin for help. They keep saying they?ll talk to the support contractor but nothing seems to happen.
>> 
>> Joe
>> 
>> > On Jan 4, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > 
>> > Is it just me, or is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history> broken?
>> > 
>> > Regards
>> >   Brian Carpenter
>> > -- 
>> > Internet-history mailing list
>> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
>> 
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast <skype:punkcast>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
> 

-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Sat Jan  4 18:16:07 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Joe Touch via Internet-history)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 18:16:07 -0800
Subject: [ih] List admin question
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk2-Bi50dkcU+WvuQ04KEMT4bA1-aHmbmaKV5pai5OBH1w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <f953c9dc-ecea-2eac-1a03-8f6c37c99f46@gmail.com>
 <08DDE575-7D21-41A4-86F0-A2BDF382C5EA@strayalpha.com>
 <CAM9VJk2-Bi50dkcU+WvuQ04KEMT4bA1-aHmbmaKV5pai5OBH1w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3095EE0D-3565-4B05-A5A2-681419A33A81@strayalpha.com>

The archive is broken (not working). Not the list.

The archive actually has never worked since it has been relocated; the messages posted end on the date it was moved. 

Joe

> On Jan 4, 2020, at 5:30 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> If it was truly broken, we wouldn't be seeing these messages!
> 
> But, according to https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/ <https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/> the last message was Oct 14, so something is kaput, for sure.
> 
> joly
> 
> On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 4:21 PM Joe Touch via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> It isn?t you. I?ve noticed this since we moved to ISOC hosting and asked the sysadmin for help. They keep saying they?ll talk to the support contractor but nothing seems to happen.
> 
> Joe
> 
> > On Jan 4, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > 
> > Is it just me, or is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history> broken?
> > 
> > Regards
> >   Brian Carpenter
> > -- 
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -

-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Sat Jan  4 17:30:37 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Joly MacFie via Internet-history)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 20:30:37 -0500
Subject: [ih] List admin question
In-Reply-To: <08DDE575-7D21-41A4-86F0-A2BDF382C5EA@strayalpha.com>
References: <f953c9dc-ecea-2eac-1a03-8f6c37c99f46@gmail.com>
 <08DDE575-7D21-41A4-86F0-A2BDF382C5EA@strayalpha.com>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk2-Bi50dkcU+WvuQ04KEMT4bA1-aHmbmaKV5pai5OBH1w@mail.gmail.com>

If it was truly broken, we wouldn't be seeing these messages!

But, according to https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/ the
last message was Oct 14, so something is kaput, for sure.

joly

On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 4:21 PM Joe Touch via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> It isn?t you. I?ve noticed this since we moved to ISOC hosting and asked
> the sysadmin for help. They keep saying they?ll talk to the support
> contractor but nothing seems to happen.
>
> Joe
>
> > On Jan 4, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > Is it just me, or is
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history broken?
> >
> > Regards
> >   Brian Carpenter
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Sat Jan  4 13:21:16 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Joe Touch via Internet-history)
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 2020 13:21:16 -0800
Subject: [ih] List admin question
In-Reply-To: <f953c9dc-ecea-2eac-1a03-8f6c37c99f46@gmail.com>
References: <f953c9dc-ecea-2eac-1a03-8f6c37c99f46@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <08DDE575-7D21-41A4-86F0-A2BDF382C5EA@strayalpha.com>

It isn?t you. I?ve noticed this since we moved to ISOC hosting and asked the sysadmin for help. They keep saying they?ll talk to the support contractor but nothing seems to happen.

Joe

> On Jan 4, 2020, at 12:01 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Is it just me, or is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history broken?
> 
> Regards
>   Brian Carpenter
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Sat Jan  4 12:01:40 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2020 09:01:40 +1300
Subject: [ih] List admin question
Message-ID: <f953c9dc-ecea-2eac-1a03-8f6c37c99f46@gmail.com>

Is it just me, or is https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history broken?
 
Regards
   Brian Carpenter
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Fri Jan  3 15:45:55 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Joly MacFie via Internet-history)
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 2020 18:45:55 -0500
Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?12_Streams_=239_=E2=80=93_2019_Internet_Hall_of_F?=
	=?utf-8?q?ame_Inductees?=
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk18Lj6oKmG+cWbZCwDYjB2um=8P1=HiJ95gaUzRqQqDQQ@mail.gmail.com>

Remarkably, Larry Irving makes it into 12 Streams two days in a row!
However, he is just one of the illustrious company honored here.

ISOC Live posted: "Today, Friday January 3 2020, at 7pm EST (00:00 UTC) in
the 9th installment of the Internet Society Livestreaming?s ?12 Days of
Streams? annual highlights, we feature the acceptance speeches of the
eleven 2019 Internet Hall of Fame inductees from the awar"


[image: livestream]
<https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ihof19>Today, *Friday
January 3 2020*, at *7pm EST* (00:00 UTC) in the 9th installment of
the *Internet
Society Livestreaming <https://isoc.live/>*?s ?*12 Days of Streams
<https://isoc.live/tag/12-streams/>*? annual highlights, we feature the
acceptance speeches of the eleven *2019 Internet Hall of Fame inductees
<https://www.internethalloffame.org/inductees>* from the award ceremony,
held on 27 September, 2019 in San Jose, Costa Rica. They are *Adiel
Akplogan*, *Kimberly Claffy*, *Douglas Comer*, *Elise Gerich*, *Larry
Irving*, *Dan Lynch*, *Jean Armour Polly*, *Jose Soriano*, *Michael Stanton*,
*Klaas Wierenga*, and *Suguru Yamaguchi*, who was represented by his son *Rui
Takita* and ISOC Trustee *Hiroshi Esaki*.

*VIEW ON LIVESTREAM: https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ihof19
<https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ihof19>*

*ORIGINAL STREAM: https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ihof2019
<https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ihof2019>*

*TWITTER: #IHOF2019 <https://bit.ly/ihof2019> @Internet_HOF*

*Permalink*
https://isoc.live/11666/


-

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
-- 
Internet-history mailing list
Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

From internet-history at elists.isoc.org  Thu Jan  2 16:54:01 2020
From: internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Joly MacFie via Internet-history)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2020 19:54:01 -0500
Subject: [ih] 12 Streams #8- Partnership for Progress on the Digital Divide
 25th Anniversary
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk2qG2U0VUnXtwcasKMYDVRpUWR=eohL_a0YBgOtjc7LPg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk2qG2U0VUnXtwcasKMYDVRpUWR=eohL_a0YBgOtjc7LPg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk3BZA7j_+kjDCV+SmrOPL76g-kPZDoyCm_vFVc=m+jQBg@mail.gmail.com>

Just as 2019 marked 50 years since the first message crossed the APRPANET,
it also marked 25 years since the realization that the Internet and its
associated technologies were now so vital that they needed to be
ubiquitous. It was Larry Irving, then leading the NTIA, who coined the term
'Digital Divide', and Laura Breeden who led the staff effort to ameliorate
it. Our stream today kicks off with Lee Rainie providing facts and figures,
and includes Vint Cerf, who needs no introduction, but marked the occasion
by sporting a 1994 Internet Society pin.
<https://twitter.com/JolyMacfie/status/1131925748267118592>

ISOC Live posted: "Today, Tuesday December 31 2019, at 7pm EST (00:00 UTC)
in the sixth installment of the Internet Society Livestreaming?s ?12 Days
of Streams? annual highlights, we feature three streams that celebrated the
50th anniversary of first message sent across the"

<https://livestream.com/internetsociety/arpanet>

[image: livestream]
<https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ppdd>Today, *Thursday
January 2 2020*, at* 7pm EST* (00:00 UTC) in the 8th installment of
the *Internet
Society Livestreaming* <https://isoc.live/>?s ?*12 Days of Streams
<https://isoc.live/tag/12-streams/>*?? annual highlights, we feature
the *Partnership
for Progress on the Digital Divide 2019 International Conference
<https://bit.ly/ppddagenda>*, held in Washington in May, which marked the
25th anniversary of the recognition of the digital divide through social
scientific research. This was a 3 day 4 track conference, so there were
many more speakers than the four we feature today who are, *Lee Rainie*,
Director of Internet and Technology Research, Pew Research Center; *Laura
Breeden*, former Program Director for Public Computing and Broadband
Adoption, N.T.I.A; *Vint Cerf*, Vice President and Chief Internet
Evangelist, Google; and *Larry Irving*, President and CEO, Irving Group. A
brief Q&A session with Vint Cerf and Larry Irving is also included.

*VIEW ON LIVESTREAM: https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ppdd
<https://livestream.com/internetsociety/ppdd>*

*ORIGINAL STREAM: https://bit.ly/ppddlive <https://bit.ly/ppddlive>*

*TWITTER: #12Streams <http://bit.ly/2t8HX2J> #ppdd2019
<https://bit.ly/ppdd2019> #digitaldivide*

*Permalink*

https://isoc.live/11662/



-
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Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
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From touch at strayalpha.com  Tue Jan  7 16:20:10 2020
From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:20:10 -0800
Subject: [ih] test2, please ignore
Message-ID: <cde85303884337aad3b74fa8cb9df483@strayalpha.com>

Testing. 

Please ignore.

From touch at strayalpha.com  Tue Jan  7 16:28:41 2020
From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch)
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2020 16:28:41 -0800
Subject: [ih] Request for past messages - Oct 2019 to today
Message-ID: <b3fd2acfc04cf8579e78b25e07d84648@strayalpha.com>

Hi, all, 

The archives for this list have been corrected and are now working. 

I would like to ask the list for assistance in recovering posted
messages from Oct 2019 to today. 

PLEASE DO NOT POST BACK TO THE LIST. 

Instead, please forward them to me (preferably as a single mbox file) at
touch at strayalpha.com 

They will be inserted in the archive once we have a reasonably complete
set. 

Many thanks for everyone's patience on this. 

Joe (list admin)

From touch at strayalpha.com  Wed Jan  8 07:17:24 2020
From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 07:17:24 -0800
Subject: [ih] Request for past messages - Oct 2019 to today
In-Reply-To: <b3fd2acfc04cf8579e78b25e07d84648@strayalpha.com>
References: <b3fd2acfc04cf8579e78b25e07d84648@strayalpha.com>
Message-ID: <66BCC49B-E6BF-4EE1-AA65-B88EDB5BE9F0@strayalpha.com>

Hi, all,

Several people have offered their archives so no further offers are needed. 

I?ll correlate them to ensure no gaps and get them into the archive as soon as possible.

Many thanks to all!

Joe

> On Jan 7, 2020, at 4:28 PM, Joe Touch via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi, all, 
> 
> The archives for this list have been corrected and are now working. 
> 
> I would like to ask the list for assistance in recovering posted
> messages from Oct 2019 to today. 
> 
> PLEASE DO NOT POST BACK TO THE LIST. 
> 
> Instead, please forward them to me (preferably as a single mbox file) at
> touch at strayalpha.com 
> 
> They will be inserted in the archive once we have a reasonably complete
> set. 
> 
> Many thanks for everyone's patience on this. 
> 
> Joe (list admin)
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From vint at google.com  Wed Jan  8 09:17:23 2020
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 12:17:23 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
Message-ID: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>

I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of networking,
participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as the
UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein

vint cerf


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Jan  8 11:26:00 2020
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 08:26:00 +1300
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>

This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true pioneering in video-conferencing over the Internet too.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of networking,
> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as the
> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> 
> vint cerf
> 
> 


From tte at cs.fau.de  Wed Jan  8 11:38:09 2020
From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 20:38:09 +0100
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>

On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true pioneering in video-conferencing over the Internet too.

Indeed 

All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.

Toerless

> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
> > morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of networking,
> > participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as the
> > UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> > 
> > vint cerf
> > 
> > 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

-- 
---
tte at cs.fau.de


From bob.hinden at gmail.com  Wed Jan  8 18:26:46 2020
From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 18:26:46 -0800
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>



> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote:
>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true pioneering in video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> 
> Indeed

Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...

Bob

> 
> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
> 
> Toerless
> 
>> Regards
>>   Brian Carpenter
>> 
>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of networking,
>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as the
>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>>> 
>>> vint cerf
>>> 
>>> 
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> --
> ---
> tte at cs.fau.de
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

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From geoff at iconia.com  Wed Jan  8 19:14:07 2020
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 17:14:07 -1000
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrhkVdQcETPWbGJXmRwQ+nUvXQmeErf=i_x4v4mYAX+=FA@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarding from Dave Farber's IP list:

Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 09:21:49 +0900
From: Dave Farber <farber at gmail.com>
Subject: [IP] Re sad news: Peter Kirstein
To: Ip Ip <ip at v2.listbox.com>

 Begin forwarded message:

 From: "Wendy M. Grossman" <wendyg at pelicancrossing.net>
 Subject: Re: [IP] sad news: Peter Kirstein
 Date: January 9, 2020 at 07:47:17 GMT+9
 To: Dave Farber <farber at gmail.com>

 For IP, if you wish.

 It is indeed sad news; the two or three times I met him he was lovely
 and kind.

 In 2013, he, Vint Cerf, Roger Scantlebury, and Peter Wilkinson
 participated in a joint event reminiscing about the birth of the
 Internet in the UK.

 The video of that event is up on YouTube here:
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Di01SX6sZkMU

 And I wrote a summary here:
 http://www.pelicancrossing.net/netwars/2013/07/repealing_the_internet.html

 It was notably how many rules they had to break to get the thing going!

 wg


On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 4:58 PM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of networking,
> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as the
> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>
> vint cerf
>
>
> --
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
http://geoff.livejournal.com


From vint at google.com  Wed Jan  8 20:09:29 2020
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 2020 23:09:29 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>

Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in our midst and
contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from about 1967
when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century. What a
gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration undiminished
by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us, but his
work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work together. None of
that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.

I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
vint


On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>
>
> > On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
> Internet-history wrote:
> >> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true pioneering in
> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> >
> > Indeed
>
> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
>
> Bob
>
> >
> > All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
> >
> > Toerless
> >
> >> Regards
> >>   Brian Carpenter
> >>
> >> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
> >>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
> networking,
> >>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as
> the
> >>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> >>>
> >>> vint cerf
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >
> > --
> > ---
> > tte at cs.fau.de
> > --
> > Internet-history mailing list
> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190


From cabo at tzi.org  Wed Jan  8 21:39:09 2020
From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 06:39:09 +0100
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
Message-ID: <89474525-B824-4E55-8FEF-2D04820B5E0D@tzi.org>

> The video of that event is up on YouTube here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Di01SX6sZkMU

You need to be an Internet Mail history buff to find the video from that link...
(The actual link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01SX6sZkMU ? my quoted-printable?damaged eyes happened to MIME-decode that almost instantly.)

Thank you for sharing that reminiscence.
Peter was an amazing person to have known.
Getting another glimpse into all the scheming that he had to come up with to make progress in a world of ignorant decision makers made my day.  Those kinds of approaches have likely also made him well-prepared for his later work in bringing the Internet to the post-soviet countries.

Gr??e, Carsten



From cdel at firsthand.net  Thu Jan  9 01:16:01 2020
From: cdel at firsthand.net (Christian de Larrinaga)
Date: Thu, 09 Jan 2020 09:16:01 +0000
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <89474525-B824-4E55-8FEF-2D04820B5E0D@tzi.org>
References: <89474525-B824-4E55-8FEF-2D04820B5E0D@tzi.org>
Message-ID: <16f8996d080.27f8.309c751ed1a5bb0c3a416b43c65c0cd7@firsthand.net>

Peter was a huge inspiration to so many.

I will also miss teasing him about his tax dodging habit

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/internet-history.html
C

On 9 January 2020 05:39:57 Carsten Bormann via Internet-history 
<internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>> The video of that event is up on YouTube here: 
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Di01SX6sZkMU
>
> You need to be an Internet Mail history buff to find the video from that 
> link...
> (The actual link is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i01SX6sZkMU ? my 
> quoted-printable?damaged eyes happened to MIME-decode that almost instantly.)
>
> Thank you for sharing that reminiscence.
> Peter was an amazing person to have known.
> Getting another glimpse into all the scheming that he had to come up with 
> to make progress in a world of ignorant decision makers made my day.  Those 
> kinds of approaches have likely also made him well-prepared for his later 
> work in bringing the Internet to the post-soviet countries.
>
> Gr??e, Carsten
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history





From jmamodio at gmail.com  Thu Jan  9 08:35:23 2020
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 10:35:23 -0600
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7CA2E9CA-4368-479F-AE2E-5DC572D577F1@gmail.com>


Sad news, condolences to family and friends.

-Jorge

> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:17 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> ?I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of networking,
> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as the
> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> 
> vint cerf
> 
> 
> -- 
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history


From geoff at iconia.com  Thu Jan  9 10:57:30 2020
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 08:57:30 -1000
Subject: [ih] Peter Kirstein, Father of the European Internet,
 Is Dead at 86 (NYT)
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrgBYBBKO8NNjwYwxxncvMoETA9my4YK5zx-ia-fKdQL+Q@mail.gmail.com>

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/08/technology/peter-kirstein-dead.html

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
http://geoff.livejournal.com


From jack at 3kitty.org  Thu Jan  9 14:11:19 2020
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 14:11:19 -0800
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>

Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!?? Peter (and his group)
was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.?? Or at least the
most memorable to me.

Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my group's
contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work reliably
as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for the
ARPANET for a decade.? The Internet then was just a handful or so of
"gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.??

Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET, which
was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like dropping IP
datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram flows.? The
neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't have much
real work to do in moving users' data.?? The ARPANET did most of the
heavy lifting for them.

However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an Internet
path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
networks of different speeds, delays, etc.?? Unlike most users, the
Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not just
occasional network experiments.? And they really used it.? And they
exposed lots of problems.

Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
headstart on us every day.? So there were often problems, waiting for
BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7 reliable
service.

IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key driver
to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the "research
lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.

Peter made (us make) the Internet work...

/Jack Haverty



On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in our midst and
> contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from about 1967
> when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century. What a
> gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration undiminished
> by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us, but his
> work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work together. None of
> that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>
> I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
> vint
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
>> Internet-history wrote:
>>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true pioneering in
>> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>>> Indeed
>> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
>>
>> Bob
>>
>>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
>>>
>>> Toerless
>>>
>>>> Regards
>>>>   Brian Carpenter
>>>>
>>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
>>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
>> networking,
>>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well as
>> the
>>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>>>>>
>>>>> vint cerf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> --
>>> ---
>>> tte at cs.fau.de
>>> --
>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>


From karl at cavebear.com  Thu Jan  9 15:25:01 2020
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 15:25:01 -0800
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <e5f2125e-56f9-44e8-c6e8-5f1df8bae53c@cavebear.com>


On 1/9/20 2:11 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
...
> IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key driver
> to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the "research
> lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.

 From my diggings through Internet history I agree that this is very true.

Concrete and specific needs do force focus.

The growth of the academic and research networks in the early 1980's was 
a strong driving force that nudged (perhaps that is to mild a verb?) 
people to focus.

I was at the Magnetic Fusion Energy (MFE) project at the Livermore Labs 
and they had their own network (MFEnet) that was begging to be joined to 
other fledgling networks that, like MFEnet, were ad hoc brews of 
proprietary protocols - SNA, HASP, DECnet, etc.  The goal was sharing, 
purity of protocol was secondary.

(Apart from putting Unix onto the Crays, I had a non-enviable job of 
building an e-mail link between Unix and IBM's PROFs systems - I knew 
about Ethernet and IP and TCP and would have given much to have had 
those, but instead I had to slug it out with encoding on punch card 
images conveyed from Unix to VM/370 on a BiSync link using a Unibus card 
built by ACC in Santa Barbara.)

There is a story, which I inadequately comprehend, about how the need 
for sharing at the academic and research level collided with the 
protocol developments of the TCP/IP (and Ethernet) worlds and ended up 
fusing.

(I was more closely associated with providers of the glue that made the 
smaller-scale sized machines stick to that fusion: Intercon, TGV, FTP 
Software, Epilogue, Beame & Whiteside, WRQ, etc.)

	--karl--


From vint at google.com  Thu Jan  9 20:06:55 2020
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 23:06:55 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>

thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom we
will see on Saturday.

vint


On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
> getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his group)
> was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at least the
> most memorable to me.
>
> Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my group's
> contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work reliably
> as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for the
> ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so of
> "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
>
> Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET, which
> was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like dropping IP
> datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram flows.  The
> neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't have much
> real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of the
> heavy lifting for them.
>
> However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an Internet
> path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
> networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users, the
> Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not just
> occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And they
> exposed lots of problems.
>
> Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
> headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting for
> BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
> known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7 reliable
> service.
>
> IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key driver
> to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the "research
> lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>
> Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>
> /Jack Haverty
>
>
>
> On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in our midst
> and
> > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from about 1967
> > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century. What a
> > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
> undiminished
> > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us, but his
> > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work together. None
> of
> > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
> >
> > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
> > vint
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history <
> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
> >> Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true pioneering
> in
> >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> >>> Indeed
> >> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
> >>
> >> Bob
> >>
> >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
> >>>
> >>> Toerless
> >>>
> >>>> Regards
> >>>>   Brian Carpenter
> >>>>
> >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed away this
> >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
> >> networking,
> >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments as well
> as
> >> the
> >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> >>>>>
> >>>>> vint cerf
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>> --
> >>> ---
> >>> tte at cs.fau.de
> >>> --
> >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >> --
> >> Internet-history mailing list
> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190


From jack at 3kitty.org  Fri Jan 10 15:48:05 2020
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 15:48:05 -0800
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>

Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.

I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...

Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
partnership.? I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
governments.?? Some of them of course involved money - who would pay for
this new experimental Internet thing.

Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.?

This was called the "VAN Gateway".? After it was put into operation,
Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international X.25
network.

The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
of the Internet.? In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
pathway was unpredictable.?? Since the X.25 world evolved from
traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
and charged based on how long each call was connected.? So a simple
5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.? It all
depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as they
used the Internet.

The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
uncontrollable monthly expenses.?? So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
we might do to mitigate that risk.

So.......? The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
might appear.? It depended on what those pesky Users did. ? The
algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
that expensive X.25 service.?? When a datagram arrived that was to be
sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between the
two gateways was still active from previous traffic.? If not, it would
"dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
start, or reset, a timer.?? After a while when the timer expired due to
inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the per-minute
charges from piling up.

That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
run up a lot of charges for ARPA.?? More brainstorming....

So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.??
probably about 1 second.? We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
user traffic subsided.

The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".??
With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was created.

So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
of the partnership.

Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."?? I've wondered for
years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.? And
whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.

/Jack Haverty


On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
> we will see on Saturday.
>
> vint
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>
>     Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
>     getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!?? Peter (and his
>     group)
>     was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.?? Or at
>     least the
>     most memorable to me.
>
>     Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my group's
>     contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
>     reliably
>     as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for the
>     ARPANET for a decade.? The Internet then was just a handful or so of
>     "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.??
>
>     Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET, which
>     was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
>     dropping IP
>     datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
>     flows.? The
>     neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
>     have much
>     real work to do in moving users' data.?? The ARPANET did most of the
>     heavy lifting for them.
>
>     However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
>     Internet
>     path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
>     networks of different speeds, delays, etc.?? Unlike most users, the
>     Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not just
>     occasional network experiments.? And they really used it.? And they
>     exposed lots of problems.
>
>     Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
>     headstart on us every day.? So there were often problems, waiting for
>     BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
>     known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7 reliable
>     service.
>
>     IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
>     driver
>     to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
>     "research
>     lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>
>     Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>
>     /Jack Haverty
>
>
>
>     On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>     > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
>     our midst and
>     > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
>     about 1967
>     > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
>     What a
>     > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
>     undiminished
>     > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
>     but his
>     > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
>     together. None of
>     > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>     >
>     > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
>     > vint
>     >
>     >
>     > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     >>
>     >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
>     Internet-history <
>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>     >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
>     >> Internet-history wrote:
>     >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
>     pioneering in
>     >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>     >>> Indeed
>     >> Yes, very sad news indeed.? Sigh...
>     >>
>     >> Bob
>     >>
>     >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
>     >>>
>     >>> Toerless
>     >>>
>     >>>> Regards
>     >>>>? ?Brian Carpenter
>     >>>>
>     >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>     >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
>     away this
>     >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
>     >> networking,
>     >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
>     as well as
>     >> the
>     >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>     >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>> vint cerf
>     >>>>>
>     >>>>>
>     >>>> --
>     >>>> Internet-history mailing list
>     >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>     >>> --
>     >>> ---
>     >>> tte at cs.fau.de <mailto:tte at cs.fau.de>
>     >>> --
>     >>> Internet-history mailing list
>     >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>     >> --
>     >> Internet-history mailing list
>     >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>     >>
>     >
>     -- 
>     Internet-history mailing list
>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>
>
> -- 
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Fri Jan 10 17:43:38 2020
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 14:43:38 +1300
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>

Jack,

> I've wondered for
> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?" discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years later.

UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later in my team at CERN.)

For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long, see the bottom of page 10 at http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
"The access control was because we were
incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was because the
funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
> 
> I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
> 
> Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
> partnership.? I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
> diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
> governments.?? Some of them of course involved money - who would pay for
> this new experimental Internet thing.
> 
> Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
> Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
> network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.?
> 
> This was called the "VAN Gateway".? After it was put into operation,
> Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
> network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international X.25
> network.
> 
> The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
> of the Internet.? In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
> pathway was unpredictable.?? Since the X.25 world evolved from
> traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
> and charged based on how long each call was connected.? So a simple
> 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
> might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.? It all
> depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as they
> used the Internet.
> 
> The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
> uncontrollable monthly expenses.?? So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
> we might do to mitigate that risk.
> 
> So.......? The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
> might appear.? It depended on what those pesky Users did. ? The
> algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
> that expensive X.25 service.?? When a datagram arrived that was to be
> sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between the
> two gateways was still active from previous traffic.? If not, it would
> "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
> start, or reset, a timer.?? After a while when the timer expired due to
> inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the per-minute
> charges from piling up.
> 
> That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
> run up a lot of charges for ARPA.?? More brainstorming....
> 
> So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
> short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.??
> probably about 1 second.? We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
> somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
> user traffic subsided.
> 
> The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
> bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".??
> With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
> duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
> Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was created.
> 
> So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
> pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
> of the partnership.
> 
> Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
> Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."?? I've wondered for
> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.? And
> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> 
> /Jack Haverty
> 
> 
> On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
>> we will see on Saturday.
>>
>> vint
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>
>>     Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
>>     getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!?? Peter (and his
>>     group)
>>     was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.?? Or at
>>     least the
>>     most memorable to me.
>>
>>     Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my group's
>>     contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
>>     reliably
>>     as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for the
>>     ARPANET for a decade.? The Internet then was just a handful or so of
>>     "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.??
>>
>>     Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET, which
>>     was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
>>     dropping IP
>>     datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
>>     flows.? The
>>     neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
>>     have much
>>     real work to do in moving users' data.?? The ARPANET did most of the
>>     heavy lifting for them.
>>
>>     However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
>>     Internet
>>     path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
>>     networks of different speeds, delays, etc.?? Unlike most users, the
>>     Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not just
>>     occasional network experiments.? And they really used it.? And they
>>     exposed lots of problems.
>>
>>     Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
>>     headstart on us every day.? So there were often problems, waiting for
>>     BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
>>     known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7 reliable
>>     service.
>>
>>     IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
>>     driver
>>     to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
>>     "research
>>     lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>>
>>     Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>>
>>     /Jack Haverty
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>     > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
>>     our midst and
>>     > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
>>     about 1967
>>     > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
>>     What a
>>     > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
>>     undiminished
>>     > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
>>     but his
>>     > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
>>     together. None of
>>     > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>>     >
>>     > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
>>     > vint
>>     >
>>     >
>>     > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
>>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>     >
>>     >>
>>     >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
>>     Internet-history <
>>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>     >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
>>     >> Internet-history wrote:
>>     >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
>>     pioneering in
>>     >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>>     >>> Indeed
>>     >> Yes, very sad news indeed.? Sigh...
>>     >>
>>     >> Bob
>>     >>
>>     >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
>>     >>>
>>     >>> Toerless
>>     >>>
>>     >>>> Regards
>>     >>>>? ?Brian Carpenter
>>     >>>>
>>     >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>     >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
>>     away this
>>     >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
>>     >> networking,
>>     >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
>>     as well as
>>     >> the
>>     >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>>     >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>> vint cerf
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>>>
>>     >>>> --
>>     >>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>     >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>     >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>     >>> --
>>     >>> ---
>>     >>> tte at cs.fau.de <mailto:tte at cs.fau.de>
>>     >>> --
>>     >>> Internet-history mailing list
>>     >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>     >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>     >> --
>>     >> Internet-history mailing list
>>     >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>     >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>     >>
>>     >
>>     -- 
>>     Internet-history mailing list
>>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> New postal address:
>> Google
>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190



From vint at google.com  Fri Jan 10 21:51:37 2020
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 00:51:37 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>

I had thought that there was some kind of reciprocal agreement that the USG
would charge the X.25 carrier the same amount that the X.25 carrier charged
- a kind of net zero peering arrangement.  Let me do a little research.
v


On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:43 PM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:

> Jack,
>
> > I've wondered for
> > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
> > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>
> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep
> quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?"
> discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years
> later.
>
> UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
> Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
> As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards
> Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I
> happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later in
> my team at CERN.)
>
> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long, see
> the bottom of page 10 at http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
> "The access control was because we were
> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was
> because the
> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
>
> Regards
>    Brian Carpenter
>
> On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> > Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
> >
> > I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
> >
> > Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
> > partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
> > diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
> > governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay for
> > this new experimental Internet thing.
> >
> > Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
> > Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
> > network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.
> >
> > This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
> > Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
> > network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international X.25
> > network.
> >
> > The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
> > of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
> > pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
> > traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
> > and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
> > 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
> > might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
> > depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as they
> > used the Internet.
> >
> > The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
> > uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
> > we might do to mitigate that risk.
> >
> > So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
> > might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
> > algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
> > that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
> > sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between the
> > two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
> > "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
> > start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due to
> > inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the per-minute
> > charges from piling up.
> >
> > That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
> > run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
> >
> > So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
> > short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.
> > probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
> > somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
> > user traffic subsided.
> >
> > The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
> > bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".
> > With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
> > duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
> > Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was created.
> >
> > So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
> > pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
> > of the partnership.
> >
> > Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
> > Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
> > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
> > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> >
> > /Jack Haverty
> >
> >
> > On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> >> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
> >> we will see on Saturday.
> >>
> >> vint
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> >> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>
> >>     Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
> >>     getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
> >>     group)
> >>     was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
> >>     least the
> >>     most memorable to me.
> >>
> >>     Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my
> group's
> >>     contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
> >>     reliably
> >>     as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for
> the
> >>     ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so of
> >>     "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
> >>
> >>     Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET,
> which
> >>     was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
> >>     dropping IP
> >>     datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
> >>     flows.  The
> >>     neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
> >>     have much
> >>     real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of the
> >>     heavy lifting for them.
> >>
> >>     However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
> >>     Internet
> >>     path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
> >>     networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users, the
> >>     Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not
> just
> >>     occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And they
> >>     exposed lots of problems.
> >>
> >>     Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
> >>     headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting
> for
> >>     BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
> >>     known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7
> reliable
> >>     service.
> >>
> >>     IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
> >>     driver
> >>     to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
> >>     "research
> >>     lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
> >>
> >>     Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
> >>
> >>     /Jack Haverty
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>     On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>     > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
> >>     our midst and
> >>     > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
> >>     about 1967
> >>     > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
> >>     What a
> >>     > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
> >>     undiminished
> >>     > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
> >>     but his
> >>     > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
> >>     together. None of
> >>     > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
> >>     >
> >>     > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
> >>     > vint
> >>     >
> >>     >
> >>     > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
> >>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>     >
> >>     >>
> >>     >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
> >>     Internet-history <
> >>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>     >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
> >>     >> Internet-history wrote:
> >>     >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
> >>     pioneering in
> >>     >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> >>     >>> Indeed
> >>     >> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
> >>     >>
> >>     >> Bob
> >>     >>
> >>     >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond
> memories.
> >>     >>>
> >>     >>> Toerless
> >>     >>>
> >>     >>>> Regards
> >>     >>>>   Brian Carpenter
> >>     >>>>
> >>     >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>     >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
> >>     away this
> >>     >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter
> of
> >>     >> networking,
> >>     >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
> >>     as well as
> >>     >> the
> >>     >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> >>     >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> >>     >>>>>
> >>     >>>>> vint cerf
> >>     >>>>>
> >>     >>>>>
> >>     >>>> --
> >>     >>>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>     >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>     >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>     >>> --
> >>     >>> ---
> >>     >>> tte at cs.fau.de <mailto:tte at cs.fau.de>
> >>     >>> --
> >>     >>> Internet-history mailing list
> >>     >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>     >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>     >> --
> >>     >> Internet-history mailing list
> >>     >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>     >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>     >>
> >>     >
> >>     --
> >>     Internet-history mailing list
> >>     Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>     <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
> >>     https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> New postal address:
> >> Google
> >> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> >> Reston, VA 20190
>
>

-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190


From vint at google.com  Fri Jan 10 22:32:50 2020
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 01:32:50 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggcMCjX3tPP71M6RxKxhGC__tBzWtEDgx0PKGiszEJBuZg@mail.gmail.com>

yes, X.75 was the X.25 network interconnection protocol.

yes, the networks did a settlement arrangement based on traffic and maybe
also set up and tear down of X.25 connections (?).
That probably led to keeping X.25 connections up artificially to avoid
opening and closing.

Larry Landweber did some X.25 work for CSNET - adding him to this
distribution in case he isn't on internet-history.

vint



On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 1:28 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow <
geoff at iconia.com> wrote:

> seem to recall that the different x.25 networks (in different countries)
> connected via x.75 gateways?
>
> and weren't these x.25/x.75 "peering" network interconnections treated
> much like their telco mother ships voice networks in that (unlike the
> Internet where sender keeps all) there were settlements involved?
>
> furthermore, kinda recall that not only did these x.25 circuit switched
> networks clock you with a fee for the time of the virtual circuit as Jack
> mentioned, but they also summarily docked you for the bits sent as well?
>
> seem to also recall that the x.25 networks were painfully slow and didn't
> allow (more than 1?) multiple packets outstanding?
>
> and also kinda recall that the CSnet x.25 implementation employed an
> automobiles alternator type of thingy in that it opened something like 5(?)
> virtual circuits simultaneously and then sequentially round robin'd the
> data, er, packets through these vc's to effectuate higher throughputage?
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 7:53 PM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>> I had thought that there was some kind of reciprocal agreement that the
>> USG
>> would charge the X.25 carrier the same amount that the X.25 carrier
>> charged
>> - a kind of net zero peering arrangement.  Let me do a little research.
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:43 PM Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Jack,
>> >
>> > > I've wondered for
>> > > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
>> And
>> > > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>> >
>> > It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep
>> > quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?"
>> > discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few
>> years
>> > later.
>> >
>> > UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
>> > Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
>> > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
>> > As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US
>> towards
>> > Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I
>> > happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later
>> in
>> > my team at CERN.)
>> >
>> > For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long,
>> see
>> > the bottom of page 10 at
>> http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
>> > "The access control was because we were
>> > incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was
>> > because the
>> > funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
>> >
>> > Regards
>> >    Brian Carpenter
>> >
>> > On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>> > > Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
>> > >
>> > > I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
>> > >
>> > > Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
>> > > partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots
>> of
>> > > diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
>> > > governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay
>> for
>> > > this new experimental Internet thing.
>> > >
>> > > Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross
>> the
>> > > Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
>> > > network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.
>> > >
>> > > This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
>> > > Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
>> > > network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international
>> X.25
>> > > network.
>> > >
>> > > The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
>> > > of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
>> > > pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
>> > > traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of
>> "calls",
>> > > and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
>> > > 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
>> > > might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
>> > > depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as
>> they
>> > > used the Internet.
>> > >
>> > > The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
>> > > uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
>> > > we might do to mitigate that risk.
>> > >
>> > > So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
>> > > might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
>> > > algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in
>> using
>> > > that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
>> > > sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between
>> the
>> > > two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
>> > > "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and
>> also
>> > > start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due
>> to
>> > > inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the
>> per-minute
>> > > charges from piling up.
>> > >
>> > > That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could
>> still
>> > > run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
>> > >
>> > > So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
>> > > short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.
>> > > probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU
>> side
>> > > somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
>> > > user traffic subsided.
>> > >
>> > > The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
>> > > bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".
>> > > With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
>> > > duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
>> > > Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was
>> created.
>> > >
>> > > So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
>> > > pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
>> > > of the partnership.
>> > >
>> > > Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
>> > > Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
>> > > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
>> And
>> > > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>> > >
>> > > /Jack Haverty
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>> > >> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
>> > >> we will see on Saturday.
>> > >>
>> > >> vint
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>> > >> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > >> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>     Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
>> > >>     getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
>> > >>     group)
>> > >>     was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
>> > >>     least the
>> > >>     most memorable to me.
>> > >>
>> > >>     Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my
>> > group's
>> > >>     contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
>> > >>     reliably
>> > >>     as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for
>> > the
>> > >>     ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or
>> so of
>> > >>     "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
>> > >>
>> > >>     Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET,
>> > which
>> > >>     was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
>> > >>     dropping IP
>> > >>     datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
>> > >>     flows.  The
>> > >>     neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
>> > >>     have much
>> > >>     real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of
>> the
>> > >>     heavy lifting for them.
>> > >>
>> > >>     However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
>> > >>     Internet
>> > >>     path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and
>> several
>> > >>     networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users,
>> the
>> > >>     Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not
>> > just
>> > >>     occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And
>> they
>> > >>     exposed lots of problems.
>> > >>
>> > >>     Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour
>> or so
>> > >>     headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting
>> > for
>> > >>     BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it
>> became
>> > >>     known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7
>> > reliable
>> > >>     service.
>> > >>
>> > >>     IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
>> > >>     driver
>> > >>     to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
>> > >>     "research
>> > >>     lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>> > >>
>> > >>     Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>> > >>
>> > >>     /Jack Haverty
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >>     On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>     > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
>> > >>     our midst and
>> > >>     > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
>> > >>     about 1967
>> > >>     > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
>> > >>     What a
>> > >>     > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
>> > >>     undiminished
>> > >>     > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left
>> us,
>> > >>     but his
>> > >>     > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
>> > >>     together. None of
>> > >>     > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>> > >>     >
>> > >>     > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
>> > >>     > vint
>> > >>     >
>> > >>     >
>> > >>     > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history
>> <
>> > >>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>     >
>> > >>     >>
>> > >>     >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
>> > >>     Internet-history <
>> > >>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> > >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>> > >>     >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter
>> via
>> > >>     >> Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>     >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
>> > >>     pioneering in
>> > >>     >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>> > >>     >>> Indeed
>> > >>     >> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
>> > >>     >>
>> > >>     >> Bob
>> > >>     >>
>> > >>     >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond
>> > memories.
>> > >>     >>>
>> > >>     >>> Toerless
>> > >>     >>>
>> > >>     >>>> Regards
>> > >>     >>>>   Brian Carpenter
>> > >>     >>>>
>> > >>     >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>> > >>     >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
>> > >>     away this
>> > >>     >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and
>> promoter
>> > of
>> > >>     >> networking,
>> > >>     >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
>> > >>     as well as
>> > >>     >> the
>> > >>     >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection
>> protocols.
>> > >>     >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>> > >>     >>>>>
>> > >>     >>>>> vint cerf
>>
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> http://geoff.livejournal.com
>
>
>

-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190


From geoff at iconia.com  Fri Jan 10 22:27:37 2020
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 20:27:37 -1000
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>

seem to recall that the different x.25 networks (in different countries)
connected via x.75 gateways?

and weren't these x.25/x.75 "peering" network interconnections treated much
like their telco mother ships voice networks in that (unlike the Internet
where sender keeps all) there were settlements involved?

furthermore, kinda recall that not only did these x.25 circuit switched
networks clock you with a fee for the time of the virtual circuit as Jack
mentioned, but they also summarily docked you for the bits sent as well?

seem to also recall that the x.25 networks were painfully slow and didn't
allow (more than 1?) multiple packets outstanding?

and also kinda recall that the CSnet x.25 implementation employed an
automobiles alternator type of thingy in that it opened something like 5(?)
virtual circuits simultaneously and then sequentially round robin'd the
data, er, packets through these vc's to effectuate higher throughputage?


On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 7:53 PM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> I had thought that there was some kind of reciprocal agreement that the USG
> would charge the X.25 carrier the same amount that the X.25 carrier charged
> - a kind of net zero peering arrangement.  Let me do a little research.
> v
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:43 PM Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Jack,
> >
> > > I've wondered for
> > > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
> And
> > > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> >
> > It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep
> > quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?"
> > discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years
> > later.
> >
> > UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
> > Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
> > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
> > As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards
> > Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I
> > happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later
> in
> > my team at CERN.)
> >
> > For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long,
> see
> > the bottom of page 10 at
> http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
> > "The access control was because we were
> > incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was
> > because the
> > funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
> >
> > Regards
> >    Brian Carpenter
> >
> > On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> > > Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
> > >
> > > I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
> > >
> > > Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
> > > partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
> > > diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
> > > governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay
> for
> > > this new experimental Internet thing.
> > >
> > > Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
> > > Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
> > > network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.
> > >
> > > This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
> > > Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
> > > network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international
> X.25
> > > network.
> > >
> > > The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
> > > of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
> > > pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
> > > traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
> > > and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
> > > 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
> > > might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
> > > depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as
> they
> > > used the Internet.
> > >
> > > The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
> > > uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
> > > we might do to mitigate that risk.
> > >
> > > So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
> > > might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
> > > algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
> > > that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
> > > sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between
> the
> > > two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
> > > "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
> > > start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due to
> > > inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the
> per-minute
> > > charges from piling up.
> > >
> > > That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
> > > run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
> > >
> > > So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
> > > short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.
> > > probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
> > > somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
> > > user traffic subsided.
> > >
> > > The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
> > > bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".
> > > With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
> > > duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
> > > Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was
> created.
> > >
> > > So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
> > > pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
> > > of the partnership.
> > >
> > > Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
> > > Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
> > > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
> And
> > > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> > >
> > > /Jack Haverty
> > >
> > >
> > > On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> > >> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
> > >> we will see on Saturday.
> > >>
> > >> vint
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> > >> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>     Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
> > >>     getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
> > >>     group)
> > >>     was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
> > >>     least the
> > >>     most memorable to me.
> > >>
> > >>     Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my
> > group's
> > >>     contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
> > >>     reliably
> > >>     as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for
> > the
> > >>     ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so
> of
> > >>     "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
> > >>
> > >>     Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET,
> > which
> > >>     was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
> > >>     dropping IP
> > >>     datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
> > >>     flows.  The
> > >>     neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
> > >>     have much
> > >>     real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of
> the
> > >>     heavy lifting for them.
> > >>
> > >>     However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
> > >>     Internet
> > >>     path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and
> several
> > >>     networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users,
> the
> > >>     Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not
> > just
> > >>     occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And
> they
> > >>     exposed lots of problems.
> > >>
> > >>     Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or
> so
> > >>     headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting
> > for
> > >>     BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it
> became
> > >>     known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7
> > reliable
> > >>     service.
> > >>
> > >>     IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
> > >>     driver
> > >>     to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
> > >>     "research
> > >>     lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
> > >>
> > >>     Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
> > >>
> > >>     /Jack Haverty
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>     On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > >>     > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
> > >>     our midst and
> > >>     > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
> > >>     about 1967
> > >>     > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
> > >>     What a
> > >>     > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
> > >>     undiminished
> > >>     > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
> > >>     but his
> > >>     > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
> > >>     together. None of
> > >>     > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
> > >>     >
> > >>     > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
> > >>     > vint
> > >>     >
> > >>     >
> > >>     > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
> > >>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>     >
> > >>     >>
> > >>     >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
> > >>     Internet-history <
> > >>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > >>     >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter
> via
> > >>     >> Internet-history wrote:
> > >>     >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
> > >>     pioneering in
> > >>     >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> > >>     >>> Indeed
> > >>     >> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
> > >>     >>
> > >>     >> Bob
> > >>     >>
> > >>     >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond
> > memories.
> > >>     >>>
> > >>     >>> Toerless
> > >>     >>>
> > >>     >>>> Regards
> > >>     >>>>   Brian Carpenter
> > >>     >>>>
> > >>     >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > >>     >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
> > >>     away this
> > >>     >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter
> > of
> > >>     >> networking,
> > >>     >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
> > >>     as well as
> > >>     >> the
> > >>     >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> > >>     >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> > >>     >>>>>
> > >>     >>>>> vint cerf
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
http://geoff.livejournal.com


From jeanjour at comcast.net  Sat Jan 11 03:08:41 2020
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 06:08:41 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <31488A81-DB24-490A-ADD2-61DECDA7A51A@comcast.net>

Along these lines, I remember seeing statistics somewhere that the Illinois node was the largest user (probably of the ARPANET hosts) of the 360 at the Rutherford High Energy Lab. It was Argonne and Illinois physics people I assume running code there and exchanging stuff with CERN.  This would have been before and about the time Batavia (FermiLab) was being built.

As some of you know, the country roads in Illinois tend to follow the section lines (1 mile squares). So there tends to be a grid of roads a mile apart. And you probably know that Central Illinois between Urbana and Chicago is pretty flat. (10 meters would be a significant hill if it existed which I doubt.) It is normal to be able to see all the way to the horizon. 

Before Interstates, the highway between Champaign and Chicago was two lane and very slow. Argonne is almost directly due North of Urbana about 140 miles. Although, the country roads are (sort of) 2-lane black top, there is very little traffic and you can generally see cross traffic coming for miles before they crossed. The physics dept had figured out how to considerably cut the driving time down by using the back country roads between Urbana and Argonne. There was a nickname for the route which I am drawing a blank on.  Wish I could remember.

Take care,
John

> On Jan 10, 2020, at 20:43, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> Jack,
> 
>> I've wondered for
>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?" discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years later.
> 
> UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
> Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
> As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later in my team at CERN.)
> 
> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long, see the bottom of page 10 at http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
> "The access control was because we were
> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was because the
> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
> 
> Regards
>   Brian Carpenter
> 
> On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>> Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
>> 
>> I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
>> 
>> Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
>> partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
>> diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
>> governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay for
>> this new experimental Internet thing.
>> 
>> Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
>> Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
>> network as just another network subsumed by the Internet. 
>> 
>> This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
>> Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
>> network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international X.25
>> network.
>> 
>> The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
>> of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
>> pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
>> traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
>> and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
>> 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
>> might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
>> depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as they
>> used the Internet.
>> 
>> The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
>> uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
>> we might do to mitigate that risk.
>> 
>> So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
>> might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
>> algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
>> that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
>> sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between the
>> two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
>> "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
>> start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due to
>> inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the per-minute
>> charges from piling up.
>> 
>> That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
>> run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
>> 
>> So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
>> short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.  
>> probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
>> somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
>> user traffic subsided.
>> 
>> The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
>> bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".  
>> With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
>> duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
>> Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was created.
>> 
>> So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
>> pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
>> of the partnership.
>> 
>> Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
>> Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>> 
>> /Jack Haverty
>> 
>> 
>> On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>>> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
>>> we will see on Saturday.
>>> 
>>> vint
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>    Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
>>>    getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
>>>    group)
>>>    was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
>>>    least the
>>>    most memorable to me.
>>> 
>>>    Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my group's
>>>    contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
>>>    reliably
>>>    as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for the
>>>    ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so of
>>>    "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.  
>>> 
>>>    Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET, which
>>>    was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
>>>    dropping IP
>>>    datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
>>>    flows.  The
>>>    neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
>>>    have much
>>>    real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of the
>>>    heavy lifting for them.
>>> 
>>>    However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
>>>    Internet
>>>    path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
>>>    networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users, the
>>>    Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not just
>>>    occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And they
>>>    exposed lots of problems.
>>> 
>>>    Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
>>>    headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting for
>>>    BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
>>>    known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7 reliable
>>>    service.
>>> 
>>>    IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
>>>    driver
>>>    to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
>>>    "research
>>>    lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>>> 
>>>    Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>>> 
>>>    /Jack Haverty
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>    On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
>>>    our midst and
>>>> contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
>>>    about 1967
>>>> when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
>>>    What a
>>>> gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
>>>    undiminished
>>>> by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
>>>    but his
>>>> work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
>>>    together. None of
>>>> that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>>>> 
>>>> I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
>>>> vint
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
>>>    Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
>>>>> Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
>>>    pioneering in
>>>>> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>>>>>> Indeed
>>>>> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
>>>>> 
>>>>> Bob
>>>>> 
>>>>>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Toerless
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>    Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
>>>    away this
>>>>>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
>>>>> networking,
>>>>>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
>>>    as well as
>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> vint cerf
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> ---
>>>>>> tte at cs.fau.de <mailto:tte at cs.fau.de>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> --
>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>    -- 
>>>    Internet-history mailing list
>>>    Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>    https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> New postal address:
>>> Google
>>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>>> Reston, VA 20190
> 
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat Jan 11 05:18:52 2020
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 05:18:52 -0800
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggcMCjX3tPP71M6RxKxhGC__tBzWtEDgx0PKGiszEJBuZg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcMCjX3tPP71M6RxKxhGC__tBzWtEDgx0PKGiszEJBuZg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <093d0a8c-2b71-4d8b-8626-9c64f21d4dd8@dcrocker.net>

On 1/10/2020 10:32 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> Larry Landweber did some X.25 work for CSNET - adding him to this
> distribution in case he isn't on internet-history.


Doug Comer's team was the part of CSNet that did the IP/X.25 driver. As 
I recall, yes, it had code that put some effort into minimising 
connection opens.

Our telephone-based dial-up email relaying by MMDF also sometimes used a 
PSTN/X.29/X.25 path. It did not work to minimize connections, since it 
worked at much lower access frequencies.  However it /did/ have to pay 
attention to the dial-up link protocol's packet size and the x.25 packet 
size, to reduce the total x.25 packet count.\

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From craig at tereschau.net  Sat Jan 11 09:32:53 2020
From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 10:32:53 -0700
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHQj4CfrTDcpzKgVQw00Np-p_qwmQmOUcQvL0GYbteZNn33DBQ@mail.gmail.com>

There were X.75 gateways.  CSNET used them for its IP over X.25 service
(which I think used code written by either Landweber or Comer's graduate
students).

As I recall the name of the game was to avoid an X.75 gateway -- as late as
the mid-1980s, the deployed ones all limited you to, if memory serves, a 2
packet window, whereas individual X.25 networks allowed for a bigger
window.  Since CSNET was using these for international connections, the
small window caused excruciatingly slow transfers.

Craig

On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 11:45 PM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via
Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

> seem to recall that the different x.25 networks (in different countries)
> connected via x.75 gateways?
>
> and weren't these x.25/x.75 "peering" network interconnections treated much
> like their telco mother ships voice networks in that (unlike the Internet
> where sender keeps all) there were settlements involved?
>
> furthermore, kinda recall that not only did these x.25 circuit switched
> networks clock you with a fee for the time of the virtual circuit as Jack
> mentioned, but they also summarily docked you for the bits sent as well?
>
> seem to also recall that the x.25 networks were painfully slow and didn't
> allow (more than 1?) multiple packets outstanding?
>
> and also kinda recall that the CSnet x.25 implementation employed an
> automobiles alternator type of thingy in that it opened something like 5(?)
> virtual circuits simultaneously and then sequentially round robin'd the
> data, er, packets through these vc's to effectuate higher throughputage?
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 7:53 PM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> > I had thought that there was some kind of reciprocal agreement that the
> USG
> > would charge the X.25 carrier the same amount that the X.25 carrier
> charged
> > - a kind of net zero peering arrangement.  Let me do a little research.
> > v
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:43 PM Brian E Carpenter <
> > brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Jack,
> > >
> > > > I've wondered for
> > > > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
> > And
> > > > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> > >
> > > It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep
> > > quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?"
> > > discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few
> years
> > > later.
> > >
> > > UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
> > > Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
> > > https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
> > > As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US
> towards
> > > Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I
> > > happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later
> > in
> > > my team at CERN.)
> > >
> > > For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long,
> > see
> > > the bottom of page 10 at
> > http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
> > > "The access control was because we were
> > > incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was
> > > because the
> > > funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
> > >
> > > Regards
> > >    Brian Carpenter
> > >
> > > On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> > > > Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work
> life.
> > > >
> > > > I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
> > > >
> > > > Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
> > > > partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots
> of
> > > > diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
> > > > governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay
> > for
> > > > this new experimental Internet thing.
> > > >
> > > > Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross
> the
> > > > Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public
> X.25
> > > > network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.
> > > >
> > > > This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
> > > > Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
> > > > network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international
> > X.25
> > > > network.
> > > >
> > > > The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded
> parts
> > > > of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
> > > > pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
> > > > traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of
> "calls",
> > > > and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
> > > > 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
> > > > might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It
> all
> > > > depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as
> > they
> > > > used the Internet.
> > > >
> > > > The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
> > > > uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about
> what
> > > > we might do to mitigate that risk.
> > > >
> > > > So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
> > > > might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
> > > > algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in
> using
> > > > that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
> > > > sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between
> > the
> > > > two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it
> would
> > > > "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and
> also
> > > > start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due
> to
> > > > inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the
> > per-minute
> > > > charges from piling up.
> > > >
> > > > That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could
> still
> > > > run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
> > > >
> > > > So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
> > > > short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.
> > > > probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU
> side
> > > > somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when
> the
> > > > user traffic subsided.
> > > >
> > > > The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system,
> the
> > > > bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".
> > > > With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
> > > > duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
> > > > Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was
> > created.
> > > >
> > > > So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
> > > > pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU
> side
> > > > of the partnership.
> > > >
> > > > Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
> > > > Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
> > > > years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
> > And
> > > > whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> > > >
> > > > /Jack Haverty
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> > > >> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
> > > >> we will see on Saturday.
> > > >>
> > > >> vint
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> > > >> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > > >> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>     Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force
> behind
> > > >>     getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and
> his
> > > >>     group)
> > > >>     was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
> > > >>     least the
> > > >>     most memorable to me.
> > > >>
> > > >>     Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my
> > > group's
> > > >>     contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
> > > >>     reliably
> > > >>     as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing
> for
> > > the
> > > >>     ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or
> so
> > of
> > > >>     "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
> > > >>
> > > >>     Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET,
> > > which
> > > >>     was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
> > > >>     dropping IP
> > > >>     datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
> > > >>     flows.  The
> > > >>     neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
> > > >>     have much
> > > >>     real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of
> > the
> > > >>     heavy lifting for them.
> > > >>
> > > >>     However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
> > > >>     Internet
> > > >>     path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and
> > several
> > > >>     networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users,
> > the
> > > >>     Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not
> > > just
> > > >>     occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And
> > they
> > > >>     exposed lots of problems.
> > > >>
> > > >>     Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour
> or
> > so
> > > >>     headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems,
> waiting
> > > for
> > > >>     BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it
> > became
> > > >>     known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7
> > > reliable
> > > >>     service.
> > > >>
> > > >>     IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
> > > >>     driver
> > > >>     to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
> > > >>     "research
> > > >>     lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
> > > >>
> > > >>     Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
> > > >>
> > > >>     /Jack Haverty
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>     On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > > >>     > Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
> > > >>     our midst and
> > > >>     > contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
> > > >>     about 1967
> > > >>     > when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a
> century.
> > > >>     What a
> > > >>     > gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
> > > >>     undiminished
> > > >>     > by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left
> us,
> > > >>     but his
> > > >>     > work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
> > > >>     together. None of
> > > >>     > that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
> > > >>     >
> > > >>     > I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
> > > >>     > vint
> > > >>     >
> > > >>     >
> > > >>     > On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via
> Internet-history <
> > > >>     > internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > > >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > > >>     >
> > > >>     >>
> > > >>     >>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
> > > >>     Internet-history <
> > > >>     >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> > > >>     <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> > > >>     >>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter
> > via
> > > >>     >> Internet-history wrote:
> > > >>     >>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
> > > >>     pioneering in
> > > >>     >> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> > > >>     >>> Indeed
> > > >>     >> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
> > > >>     >>
> > > >>     >> Bob
> > > >>     >>
> > > >>     >>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond
> > > memories.
> > > >>     >>>
> > > >>     >>> Toerless
> > > >>     >>>
> > > >>     >>>> Regards
> > > >>     >>>>   Brian Carpenter
> > > >>     >>>>
> > > >>     >>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> > > >>     >>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein
> passed
> > > >>     away this
> > > >>     >>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and
> promoter
> > > of
> > > >>     >> networking,
> > > >>     >>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet
> developments
> > > >>     as well as
> > > >>     >> the
> > > >>     >>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection
> protocols.
> > > >>     >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> > > >>     >>>>>
> > > >>     >>>>> vint cerf
> >
>
> --
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> http://geoff.livejournal.com
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>


-- 
*****
Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and
mailing lists.


From jack at 3kitty.org  Sat Jan 11 11:04:14 2020
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 11:04:14 -0800
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>

[Changed the subject to reflect where the discussion seems to be going....]

On 1/10/20 5:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long, see the bottom of page 10 at http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
> "The access control was because we were
> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was because the
> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."

Interesting paper, thanks.? I'm sure that Peter and the EU bureaucracy
were very aware of the X.25-related costs and struggling with how to
allocate them (moving expenses into someone else's budget...).? But I
see no indication that they were aware of the asymmetry introduced by
our cost-avoidance algorithm.? E.g., did they ever compare notes with
the ARPA billing department??? Or did each side just pay its bill and
perhaps figure out how to allocate costs among the users on their side.

It also appears that they might not have understood how the costs
depended on who initiated each X.25/X.75 circuit setup - which was not
necessarily related in any consistent way with the TCP connections or
source of packet traffic.

Given all of the other usage of X.25 in Internet-related worlds (CSNET
etc.), there's likely a fascinating bit of Internet History in how
different systems dealt with the intersection between the Internet-style
"it's all free if you're approved to use it at all" and the X.25 "if you
initiate a conversation with someone, you pay by the minute and by the
packet" attitudes.?? Did anyone else implement "move your expenses"
schemes at organizational boundaries?

There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
arena - Who Paid For The Internet?

/Jack Haverty




From jeanjour at comcast.net  Sat Jan 11 11:15:26 2020
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 14:15:26 -0500
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <7FC9D074-BC17-440F-ABD9-7109A5583643@comcast.net>

As Abbate relates in her book, there were two approaches to ?internetworking? protocol conversion at the boundaries and doing an overlay.  The CCITT (ITU) chose protocol conversion with X.75, researchers and computer vendors chose the overlay approach.

Take care,
John

> On Jan 11, 2020, at 01:27, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> seem to recall that the different x.25 networks (in different countries)
> connected via x.75 gateways?
> 
> and weren't these x.25/x.75 "peering" network interconnections treated much
> like their telco mother ships voice networks in that (unlike the Internet
> where sender keeps all) there were settlements involved?
> 
> furthermore, kinda recall that not only did these x.25 circuit switched
> networks clock you with a fee for the time of the virtual circuit as Jack
> mentioned, but they also summarily docked you for the bits sent as well?
> 
> seem to also recall that the x.25 networks were painfully slow and didn't
> allow (more than 1?) multiple packets outstanding?
> 
> and also kinda recall that the CSnet x.25 implementation employed an
> automobiles alternator type of thingy in that it opened something like 5(?)
> virtual circuits simultaneously and then sequentially round robin'd the
> data, er, packets through these vc's to effectuate higher throughputage?
> 
> 
> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 7:53 PM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>> I had thought that there was some kind of reciprocal agreement that the USG
>> would charge the X.25 carrier the same amount that the X.25 carrier charged
>> - a kind of net zero peering arrangement.  Let me do a little research.
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:43 PM Brian E Carpenter <
>> brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>>> Jack,
>>> 
>>>> I've wondered for
>>>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
>> And
>>>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>>> 
>>> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep
>>> quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?"
>>> discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years
>>> later.
>>> 
>>> UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
>>> Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
>>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
>>> As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards
>>> Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I
>>> happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later
>> in
>>> my team at CERN.)
>>> 
>>> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long,
>> see
>>> the bottom of page 10 at
>> http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
>>> "The access control was because we were
>>> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was
>>> because the
>>> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
>>> 
>>> Regards
>>>   Brian Carpenter
>>> 
>>> On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
>>>> 
>>>> I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
>>>> 
>>>> Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
>>>> partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
>>>> diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
>>>> governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay
>> for
>>>> this new experimental Internet thing.
>>>> 
>>>> Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
>>>> Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
>>>> network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.
>>>> 
>>>> This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
>>>> Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
>>>> network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international
>> X.25
>>>> network.
>>>> 
>>>> The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
>>>> of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
>>>> pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
>>>> traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
>>>> and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
>>>> 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
>>>> might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
>>>> depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as
>> they
>>>> used the Internet.
>>>> 
>>>> The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
>>>> uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
>>>> we might do to mitigate that risk.
>>>> 
>>>> So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
>>>> might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
>>>> algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
>>>> that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
>>>> sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between
>> the
>>>> two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
>>>> "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
>>>> start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due to
>>>> inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the
>> per-minute
>>>> charges from piling up.
>>>> 
>>>> That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
>>>> run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
>>>> 
>>>> So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
>>>> short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.
>>>> probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
>>>> somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
>>>> user traffic subsided.
>>>> 
>>>> The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
>>>> bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".
>>>> With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
>>>> duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
>>>> Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was
>> created.
>>>> 
>>>> So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
>>>> pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
>>>> of the partnership.
>>>> 
>>>> Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
>>>> Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
>>>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
>> And
>>>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>>>> 
>>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>>>>> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
>>>>> we will see on Saturday.
>>>>> 
>>>>> vint
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
>>>>>    getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
>>>>>    group)
>>>>>    was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
>>>>>    least the
>>>>>    most memorable to me.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my
>>> group's
>>>>>    contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
>>>>>    reliably
>>>>>    as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for
>>> the
>>>>>    ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so
>> of
>>>>>    "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET,
>>> which
>>>>>    was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
>>>>>    dropping IP
>>>>>    datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
>>>>>    flows.  The
>>>>>    neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
>>>>>    have much
>>>>>    real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of
>> the
>>>>>    heavy lifting for them.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
>>>>>    Internet
>>>>>    path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and
>> several
>>>>>    networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users,
>> the
>>>>>    Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not
>>> just
>>>>>    occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And
>> they
>>>>>    exposed lots of problems.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or
>> so
>>>>>    headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting
>>> for
>>>>>    BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it
>> became
>>>>>    known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7
>>> reliable
>>>>>    service.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
>>>>>    driver
>>>>>    to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
>>>>>    "research
>>>>>    lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>>>>> 
>>>>>    Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>>>>> 
>>>>>    /Jack Haverty
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>    On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>> Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
>>>>>    our midst and
>>>>>> contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
>>>>>    about 1967
>>>>>> when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
>>>>>    What a
>>>>>> gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
>>>>>    undiminished
>>>>>> by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
>>>>>    but his
>>>>>> work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
>>>>>    together. None of
>>>>>> that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
>>>>>> vint
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
>>>>>    Internet-history <
>>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter
>> via
>>>>>>> Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
>>>>>    pioneering in
>>>>>>> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>>>>>>>> Indeed
>>>>>>> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond
>>> memories.
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Toerless
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>>  Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
>>>>>    away this
>>>>>>>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter
>>> of
>>>>>>> networking,
>>>>>>>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
>>>>>    as well as
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>>> vint cerf
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> http://geoff.livejournal.com
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Sat Jan 11 12:06:40 2020
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 09:06:40 +1300
Subject: [ih] sad news: Peter Kirstein
In-Reply-To: <31488A81-DB24-490A-ADD2-61DECDA7A51A@comcast.net>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <31488A81-DB24-490A-ADD2-61DECDA7A51A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <bf8fc01e-2031-9bc4-1c86-ea81dc9531c6@gmail.com>

High Energy Physics was always a bit of an exception, since CERN was a major data source and many US physicists were CERN users. So we sent lots of bits to America and we didn't see why we should pay for them, since it was all for the benefit of US scientists. In the NSFnet days, we had many friendly arguments with Steve Goldstein about this.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 12-Jan-20 00:08, John Day wrote:
> Along these lines, I remember seeing statistics somewhere that the Illinois node was the largest user (probably of the ARPANET hosts) of the 360 at the Rutherford High Energy Lab. It was Argonne and Illinois physics people I assume running code there and exchanging stuff with CERN.  This would have been before and about the time Batavia (FermiLab) was being built.
> 
> As some of you know, the country roads in Illinois tend to follow the section lines (1 mile squares). So there tends to be a grid of roads a mile apart. And you probably know that Central Illinois between Urbana and Chicago is pretty flat. (10 meters would be a significant hill if it existed which I doubt.) It is normal to be able to see all the way to the horizon. 
> 
> Before Interstates, the highway between Champaign and Chicago was two lane and very slow. Argonne is almost directly due North of Urbana about 140 miles. Although, the country roads are (sort of) 2-lane black top, there is very little traffic and you can generally see cross traffic coming for miles before they crossed. The physics dept had figured out how to considerably cut the driving time down by using the back country roads between Urbana and Argonne. There was a nickname for the route which I am drawing a blank on.  Wish I could remember.
> 
> Take care,
> John
> 
>> On Jan 10, 2020, at 20:43, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>
>> Jack,
>>
>>> I've wondered for
>>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
>>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>>
>> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?" discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years later.
>>
>> UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
>> Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
>> As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later in my team at CERN.)
>>
>> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long, see the bottom of page 10 at http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
>> "The access control was because we were
>> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was because the
>> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
>>
>> Regards
>>   Brian Carpenter
>>
>> On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>> Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
>>>
>>> I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
>>>
>>> Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
>>> partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
>>> diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
>>> governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay for
>>> this new experimental Internet thing.
>>>
>>> Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
>>> Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
>>> network as just another network subsumed by the Internet. 
>>>
>>> This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
>>> Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
>>> network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international X.25
>>> network.
>>>
>>> The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
>>> of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
>>> pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
>>> traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
>>> and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
>>> 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
>>> might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
>>> depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as they
>>> used the Internet.
>>>
>>> The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
>>> uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
>>> we might do to mitigate that risk.
>>>
>>> So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
>>> might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
>>> algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
>>> that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
>>> sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between the
>>> two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
>>> "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
>>> start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due to
>>> inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the per-minute
>>> charges from piling up.
>>>
>>> That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
>>> run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
>>>
>>> So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
>>> short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.  
>>> probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
>>> somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
>>> user traffic subsided.
>>>
>>> The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
>>> bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".  
>>> With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
>>> duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
>>> Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was created.
>>>
>>> So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
>>> pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
>>> of the partnership.
>>>
>>> Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
>>> Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
>>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.  And
>>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
>>>
>>> /Jack Haverty
>>>
>>>
>>> On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
>>>> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
>>>> we will see on Saturday.
>>>>
>>>> vint
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>    Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
>>>>    getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
>>>>    group)
>>>>    was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
>>>>    least the
>>>>    most memorable to me.
>>>>
>>>>    Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my group's
>>>>    contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
>>>>    reliably
>>>>    as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for the
>>>>    ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so of
>>>>    "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.  
>>>>
>>>>    Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET, which
>>>>    was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
>>>>    dropping IP
>>>>    datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
>>>>    flows.  The
>>>>    neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
>>>>    have much
>>>>    real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of the
>>>>    heavy lifting for them.
>>>>
>>>>    However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
>>>>    Internet
>>>>    path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and several
>>>>    networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users, the
>>>>    Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not just
>>>>    occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And they
>>>>    exposed lots of problems.
>>>>
>>>>    Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or so
>>>>    headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting for
>>>>    BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it became
>>>>    known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7 reliable
>>>>    service.
>>>>
>>>>    IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
>>>>    driver
>>>>    to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
>>>>    "research
>>>>    lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
>>>>
>>>>    Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
>>>>
>>>>    /Jack Haverty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>> Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
>>>>    our midst and
>>>>> contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
>>>>    about 1967
>>>>> when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
>>>>    What a
>>>>> gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
>>>>    undiminished
>>>>> by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
>>>>    but his
>>>>> work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
>>>>    together. None of
>>>>> that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
>>>>> vint
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
>>>>    Internet-history <
>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter via
>>>>>> Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
>>>>    pioneering in
>>>>>> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
>>>>>>> Indeed
>>>>>> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond memories.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Toerless
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Regards
>>>>>>>>    Brian Carpenter
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
>>>>>>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
>>>>    away this
>>>>>>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter of
>>>>>> networking,
>>>>>>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
>>>>    as well as
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> vint cerf
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>> tte at cs.fau.de <mailto:tte at cs.fau.de>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Internet-history mailing list
>>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>    -- 
>>>>    Internet-history mailing list
>>>>    Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>>>>    <mailto:Internet-history at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>    https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- 
>>>> New postal address:
>>>> Google
>>>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>
>> -- 
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> 
> .
> 


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Sat Jan 11 12:08:03 2020
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 09:08:03 +1300
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <ea3416b0-0723-6eff-ce4a-cb2ebffc682c@gmail.com>

I agree, a history thesis or two is lurking here.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 12-Jan-20 08:04, Jack Haverty wrote:
> [Changed the subject to reflect where the discussion seems to be going....]
> 
> On 1/10/20 5:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long, see the bottom of page 10 at http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
>> "The access control was because we were
>> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was because the
>> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
> 
> Interesting paper, thanks.? I'm sure that Peter and the EU bureaucracy
> were very aware of the X.25-related costs and struggling with how to
> allocate them (moving expenses into someone else's budget...).? But I
> see no indication that they were aware of the asymmetry introduced by
> our cost-avoidance algorithm.? E.g., did they ever compare notes with
> the ARPA billing department??? Or did each side just pay its bill and
> perhaps figure out how to allocate costs among the users on their side.
> 
> It also appears that they might not have understood how the costs
> depended on who initiated each X.25/X.75 circuit setup - which was not
> necessarily related in any consistent way with the TCP connections or
> source of packet traffic.
> 
> Given all of the other usage of X.25 in Internet-related worlds (CSNET
> etc.), there's likely a fascinating bit of Internet History in how
> different systems dealt with the intersection between the Internet-style
> "it's all free if you're approved to use it at all" and the X.25 "if you
> initiate a conversation with someone, you pay by the minute and by the
> packet" attitudes.?? Did anyone else implement "move your expenses"
> schemes at organizational boundaries?
> 
> There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
> arena - Who Paid For The Internet?
> 
> /Jack Haverty
> 
> 
> 



From tte at cs.fau.de  Sun Jan 12 00:03:10 2020
From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 09:03:10 +0100
Subject: [ih] X.25 networking (was: Re:  sad news: Peter Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <7FC9D074-BC17-440F-ABD9-7109A5583643@comcast.net>
References: <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggfFovZhDGiS6M_5XG0xc26TypjRh_OyYMY1W_R0ux79Lw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrj6x-aa2LUCRwRaqoB7Rf7K1KMtUS--DUYiJnC+mkigAA@mail.gmail.com>
 <7FC9D074-BC17-440F-ABD9-7109A5583643@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <20200112080310.GA14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>

Any more specific definition for "protocol conversion ?" other than
"anything thats not just overlay" ?

I am asking, because conceptually, i see little difference between
running IP at a UNI (Host<->Network) and NNI (SP<->), or running
X.25 at UNI and X.75 at NNI. Would you describe an IP SP<->SP connection
with IP as "protocol conversion" ?

Also:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Packet_Switched_Service

Looks to me as if Peter's side in the UK would rather have been a
user (DTE) of IPSS, tunneling IP all the way to the USA across an X.25
connection. In that case, UCL would have just had an X.25 interface to
IPSS. X.75 would have been used likely on the interconnects between the
three operators of IPSS.

Would be interesting to know what was charged for IPSS internationally
back then.

I only did international X.25 from my university in Germany to the
US west coast in the mid 80th for something better predictable in 
volume than IP, namely UUCP for email. Even running IP to another university
in Germany set us back up to 7000 EUR/month to Deutsche Telekom (in
todays money) and was of course not funded ("what is IP and why do you need
it").

Cheers
    Toerless

On Sat, Jan 11, 2020 at 02:15:26PM -0500, John Day via Internet-history wrote:
> As Abbate relates in her book, there were two approaches to ???internetworking??? protocol conversion at the boundaries and doing an overlay.  The CCITT (ITU) chose protocol conversion with X.75, researchers and computer vendors chose the overlay approach.
> 
> Take care,
> John
> 
> > On Jan 11, 2020, at 01:27, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > 
> > seem to recall that the different x.25 networks (in different countries)
> > connected via x.75 gateways?
> > 
> > and weren't these x.25/x.75 "peering" network interconnections treated much
> > like their telco mother ships voice networks in that (unlike the Internet
> > where sender keeps all) there were settlements involved?
> > 
> > furthermore, kinda recall that not only did these x.25 circuit switched
> > networks clock you with a fee for the time of the virtual circuit as Jack
> > mentioned, but they also summarily docked you for the bits sent as well?
> > 
> > seem to also recall that the x.25 networks were painfully slow and didn't
> > allow (more than 1?) multiple packets outstanding?
> > 
> > and also kinda recall that the CSnet x.25 implementation employed an
> > automobiles alternator type of thingy in that it opened something like 5(?)
> > virtual circuits simultaneously and then sequentially round robin'd the
> > data, er, packets through these vc's to effectuate higher throughputage?
> > 
> > 
> > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 7:53 PM Vint Cerf via Internet-history <
> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> > 
> >> I had thought that there was some kind of reciprocal agreement that the USG
> >> would charge the X.25 carrier the same amount that the X.25 carrier charged
> >> - a kind of net zero peering arrangement.  Let me do a little research.
> >> v
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 8:43 PM Brian E Carpenter <
> >> brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
> >> 
> >>> Jack,
> >>> 
> >>>> I've wondered for
> >>>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
> >> And
> >>>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> >>> 
> >>> It wouldn't surprise me in the least if Peter knew and decided to keep
> >>> quiet. This was presumably around 1980? The transatlantic "who pays?"
> >>> discussions got very explicit when NSFnet entered the picture a few years
> >>> later.
> >>> 
> >>> UCL was monitoring usage as early as 1975:
> >>> Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET
> >>> https://dl.acm.org/doi/10.1145/1499799.1499882
> >>> As for many years afterwards, the bulk of traffic was from the US towards
> >>> Europe, and most of the sessions were started by European users. (I
> >>> happened to notice this paper since one of Peter's co-authors was later
> >> in
> >>> my team at CERN.)
> >>> 
> >>> For proof that Peter was aware of the X.25 cost issue before too long,
> >> see
> >>> the bottom of page 10 at
> >> http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf
> >>> "The access control was because we were
> >>> incurring IPSS traffic charges on out-going traffic; the logging was
> >>> because the
> >>> funding agencies wanted to know how to allocate costs."
> >>> 
> >>> Regards
> >>>   Brian Carpenter
> >>> 
> >>> On 11-Jan-20 12:48, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>> Thanks Vint, I hope it gives them some insight into Peter's work life.
> >>>> 
> >>>> I remembered another anecdote that might also be interesting...
> >>>> 
> >>>> Peter was the primary contact I knew on the EU side of the US/EU
> >>>> partnership.  I never knew the details, but I suspect there was lots of
> >>>> diplomacy, negotiations and agreements involved involving the several
> >>>> governments.   Some of them of course involved money - who would pay
> >> for
> >>>> this new experimental Internet thing.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Some time after the initial gateway linkage made the Internet cross the
> >>>> Atlantic, we put a second pathway into place, by using the public X.25
> >>>> network as just another network subsumed by the Internet.
> >>>> 
> >>>> This was called the "VAN Gateway".  After it was put into operation,
> >>>> Internet traffic between the EU and US could traverse the satellite
> >>>> network, that ARPA paid for, or it could traverse the international
> >> X.25
> >>>> network.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The X.25 network consumed money differently than the ARPA-funded parts
> >>>> of the Internet.  In particular, the monthly cost of using the X.25
> >>>> pathway was unpredictable.   Since the X.25 world evolved from
> >>>> traditional telephone companies, it had retained the notion of "calls",
> >>>> and charged based on how long each call was connected.  So a simple
> >>>> 5-minute call would be inexpensive, while a large file transfer that
> >>>> might take a day or more to complete would be quite expensive.  It all
> >>>> depended on what those pesky Users (like Peter and his crew) did as
> >> they
> >>>> used the Internet.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The ARPA beancounters weren't too comfortable with unpredictable and
> >>>> uncontrollable monthly expenses.   So we (BBN) brainstormed about what
> >>>> we might do to mitigate that risk.
> >>>> 
> >>>> So.......  The gateways couldn't really predict what future traffic
> >>>> might appear.  It depended on what those pesky Users did.   The
> >>>> algorithm we implemented did its best to be somewhat efficient in using
> >>>> that expensive X.25 service.   When a datagram arrived that was to be
> >>>> sent over the X.25 path, the gateway would see if the "call" between
> >> the
> >>>> two gateways was still active from previous traffic.  If not, it would
> >>>> "dial up" the other end and then send the datagram on its way, and also
> >>>> start, or reset, a timer.   After a while when the timer expired due to
> >>>> inactivity the gateway would simply "hang up", to prevent the
> >> per-minute
> >>>> charges from piling up.
> >>>> 
> >>>> That would help, but if someone did a huge file transfer it could still
> >>>> run up a lot of charges for ARPA.   More brainstorming....
> >>>> 
> >>>> So, ...... We simply configured the timer on the US side to be very
> >>>> short - just long enough to get one datagram across the Atlantic.
> >>>> probably about 1 second.  We set the corresponding timer on the EU side
> >>>> somewhat longer - a minute or so, so it would hang up quickly when the
> >>>> user traffic subsided.
> >>>> 
> >>>> The X.25 mechanisms behaved like the traditional telephone system, the
> >>>> bill for each "call" would go to whichever party "dialed the phone".
> >>>> With the timers set so differently, almost all of the calls of any
> >>>> duration would be initiated by the gateway on the EU side of the
> >>>> Atlantic, regardless of where the associated TCP connection was
> >> created.
> >>>> 
> >>>> So, ....The result was that most of the expense of using the X.25
> >>>> pathway, and almost all of the unpredictability, fell onto the EU side
> >>>> of the partnership.
> >>>> 
> >>>> Somewhere in my education, I learned that "Management is the Art of
> >>>> Moving Your Expenses Into Someone Else's Budget."   I've wondered for
> >>>> years how much of ARPA's expenses we moved into Peter's UCL budget.
> >> And
> >>>> whether Peter or anyone else realized what was happening.
> >>>> 
> >>>> /Jack Haverty
> >>>> 
> >>>> 
> >>>> On 1/9/20 8:06 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> >>>>> thanks for this reminiscence - I am sharing with Peter's family whom
> >>>>> we will see on Saturday.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> vint
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 5:11 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history
> >>>>> <internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>> <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    Peter was, IMHO, possibly the most important driving force behind
> >>>>>    getting the fledgling Internet to actually work!   Peter (and his
> >>>>>    group)
> >>>>>    was the only "real" User of the Internet back in 1981.   Or at
> >>>>>    least the
> >>>>>    most memorable to me.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    Summer/Fall 1981 was when Vint added an "Internet" task to my
> >>> group's
> >>>>>    contract at BBN, with the assignment to make the Internet work
> >>>>>    reliably
> >>>>>    as a 24x7 communications service, just like we had been doing for
> >>> the
> >>>>>    ARPANET for a decade.  The Internet then was just a handful or so
> >> of
> >>>>>    "gateways" (now called "routers") interconnecting networks.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    Most "Internet traffic" then actually moved across the ARPANET,
> >>> which
> >>>>>    was not only reliable but also rarely did nasty things like
> >>>>>    dropping IP
> >>>>>    datagrams, reordering them, and otherwise mangling datagram
> >>>>>    flows.  The
> >>>>>    neonatal TCP implementations, running over the ARPANET, didn't
> >>>>>    have much
> >>>>>    real work to do in moving users' data.   The ARPANET did most of
> >> the
> >>>>>    heavy lifting for them.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    However, Peter and the UCL group were actually trying to use an
> >>>>>    Internet
> >>>>>    path which involved at least 2 resource-starved gateways and
> >> several
> >>>>>    networks of different speeds, delays, etc.   Unlike most users,
> >> the
> >>>>>    Internet was supporting Peter's group's everyday activities, not
> >>> just
> >>>>>    occasional network experiments.  And they really used it.  And
> >> they
> >>>>>    exposed lots of problems.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    Being on the EU side of the Atlantic, they always had a 5 hour or
> >> so
> >>>>>    headstart on us every day.  So there were often problems, waiting
> >>> for
> >>>>>    BBN to "fix the Internet" every morning - especially after it
> >> became
> >>>>>    known that BBN was tasked to make the Internet work as a 24x7
> >>> reliable
> >>>>>    service.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    IMHO, that pressure from real users with real problems was a key
> >>>>>    driver
> >>>>>    to all the things we had to do to get the Internet out of the
> >>>>>    "research
> >>>>>    lab" to come online as a reliable communications service.
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    Peter made (us make) the Internet work...
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    /Jack Haverty
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>> 
> >>>>>    On 1/8/20 8:09 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>> Looking at this from a different perspective, we had Peter in
> >>>>>    our midst and
> >>>>>> contributing heavily to networking successes and spread from
> >>>>>    about 1967
> >>>>>> when I first met him while at UCLA. That's over half a century.
> >>>>>    What a
> >>>>>> gift! His work is still evident and his story of collaboration
> >>>>>    undiminished
> >>>>>> by his departure from our midst. Yes, another giant has left us,
> >>>>>    but his
> >>>>>> work remains to remind us of what we can do when we work
> >>>>>    together. None of
> >>>>>> that is gone though we shall not see him again in this world.
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> I am glad to have called him "friend" for many, many years.
> >>>>>> vint
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>> On Wed, Jan 8, 2020 at 9:27 PM Bob Hinden via Internet-history <
> >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> On Jan 8, 2020, at 11:38 AM, Toerless Eckert via
> >>>>>    Internet-history <
> >>>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> >>>>>    <mailto:internet-history at elists.isoc.org>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Thu, Jan 09, 2020 at 08:26:00AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter
> >> via
> >>>>>>> Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> This is really bad news. And don't forget his team's true
> >>>>>    pioneering in
> >>>>>>> video-conferencing over the Internet too.
> >>>>>>>> Indeed
> >>>>>>> Yes, very sad news indeed.  Sigh...
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>> Bob
> >>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> All MICE and friends will miss him dearly, and keep fond
> >>> memories.
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>> Toerless
> >>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> Regards
> >>>>>>>>>  Brian Carpenter
> >>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>> On 09-Jan-20 06:17, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> I am sorry to relay the sad news that Peter Kirstein passed
> >>>>>    away this
> >>>>>>>>>> morning (London time). He was a key implementer and promoter
> >>> of
> >>>>>>> networking,
> >>>>>>>>>> participating in both the ARPANET and Internet developments
> >>>>>    as well as
> >>>>>>> the
> >>>>>>>>>> UK Coloured Book and Open Systems Interconnection protocols.
> >>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_T._Kirstein
> >>>>>>>>>> 
> >>>>>>>>>> vint cerf


From julf at julf.com  Sun Jan 12 00:51:14 2020
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 09:51:14 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <335b3ca8-a657-71c4-8b79-91bf7d982b53@julf.com>

On 11-01-2020 20:04, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:

> Given all of the other usage of X.25 in Internet-related worlds (CSNET
> etc.), there's likely a fascinating bit of Internet History in how
> different systems dealt with the intersection between the Internet-style
> "it's all free if you're approved to use it at all" and the X.25 "if you
> initiate a conversation with someone, you pay by the minute and by the
> packet" attitudes.?? Did anyone else implement "move your expenses"
> schemes at organizational boundaries?

Technically not Internet, but at least up in the Nordics, we shared the
costs of the UUCP connections over modems and X.25 for email and USENET
among the users (back in the day when EUnet was a sort of co-op/club).

	Julf


From ocl at gih.com  Mon Jan 13 08:59:19 2020
From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 16:59:19 +0000
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>

Dear Jack,

On 11/01/2020 19:04, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
> arena - Who Paid For The Internet?

As a network of networks, you'll find that every network connecting will
have been supported in a different way.

Peter Kirstein's piece in http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/internet-history.html
jogged my mind, when it came to the International links outside the UK.
Back in 1988 the three main links for email outside the UK's JANET
network were:

a. UCL's JANET-Internet Gateway
Original name: uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss - which connected to the Nasa Science
Network via Satellite. I have no clue who paid the bill for the
satellite link, but back then it was assumed by many of us using the
link, that the traffic generated by the gateway was so small, it meant a
speck of dust compared all of its other traffic. But it was monitored
closely, at least on the US side, as Peter Yee (NASA) is credited with
being on the first people pointing out being attacked by an Internet
Virus (RTM worm in 88).
See Janet's 30 years paper that provides for interesting reading.
https://www.jisc.ac.uk/sites/default/files/janet-news-24-pull-out-april-2014.pdf?
- I guess that was all paid for by UK Government

b. UKACRL.bitnet - the Rutherford Appleton Labs uk.ac.earn-gateway -
again here, no idea who was paying the bills. the JANET side was
obviously paid for by the Joint Network Team (JNT) which was essentially
the UK Government. I suspect the gateway was also paid for by the UK
Government as part of the Lab's nuclear research grant.

c. UKC UUCP Gateway - The UUCP gateway at the University of Kent at
Canterbury. It was impossible to send email out via this gateway if your
site was not registered with UKC. Incoming email through this route
would trigger an email sent to me telling me "A message has been
received for you. Please contact xxx to arrange for delivery of this
message". I think that later, it mentioned who the sender was so I could
email the sender to tell them to route via @uunet.uu.net or
@decwrl.dec.com or @uucp.sun.com or @cunyvm.cuny.edu should incoming be
via UKACRL --- all of the "free" paths.

I suppose that back then many of us users didn't ask "who is paying for
it". It was pretty much a "well, I am not, but someone else obviously
is". Of course when acceptable use policies came into effect, many
people found out the real costs.

Kindest regards,

Olivier


From ocl at gih.com  Mon Jan 13 09:23:06 2020
From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?=)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 17:23:06 +0000
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
Message-ID: <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>



On 13/01/2020 16:59, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote:
> As a network of networks, you'll find that every network connecting will
> have been supported in a different way.

I should add, this interesting article by JSQ et. al. provides a nice
snapshot of the variety of networks around circa 1986 and how some of
them were funded: https://bit.ly/2uIMhGR



From julf at julf.com  Mon Jan 13 09:39:22 2020
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 18:39:22 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
Message-ID: <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>

On 13-01-2020 18:23, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote:

> I should add, this interesting article by JSQ et. al. provides a nice
> snapshot of the variety of networks around circa 1986 and how some of
> them were funded: https://bit.ly/2uIMhGR

Heh, "EUnet will probably eventually adopt X.400 for mail, using
whatever transport mechanisms, such as TP4 or other IS0 transport
protocols, are appropriate at that time." - I am sure Daniel Karrenberg
still has a copy of the "EUnet X.400 migration plan" that was never
intended to be used, but was demanded by the European Commission... :)

	Julf




From tte at cs.fau.de  Mon Jan 13 10:35:38 2020
From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert)
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:35:38 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
References: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
Message-ID: <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>

DoD also had a mandate for migration to X.400 if i recall, but
the army base in Germany where i had a small consulting gig
proudly showed their never opened / never to be opened boxed X.400
software.

Aka: This didn't end with EU regulations, but i am sure it started
there.

I forgot the name/number of the EU directive about ISO/OSI Sigh.
Was quite a bit of annoyance back in the days.

Cheers
    Toerless

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 06:39:22PM +0100, Johan Helsingius via Internet-history wrote:
> On 13-01-2020 18:23, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote:
> 
> > I should add, this interesting article by JSQ et. al. provides a nice
> > snapshot of the variety of networks around circa 1986 and how some of
> > them were funded: https://bit.ly/2uIMhGR
> 
> Heh, "EUnet will probably eventually adopt X.400 for mail, using
> whatever transport mechanisms, such as TP4 or other IS0 transport
> protocols, are appropriate at that time." - I am sure Daniel Karrenberg
> still has a copy of the "EUnet X.400 migration plan" that was never
> intended to be used, but was demanded by the European Commission... :)
> 
> 	Julf


From ocl at gih.com  Mon Jan 13 17:03:47 2020
From: ocl at gih.com (=?UTF-8?Q?Olivier_MJ_Cr=c3=a9pin-Leblond?=)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 01:03:47 +0000
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
 <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>

Dear Toerless,

On 13/01/2020 18:35, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote:
> I forgot the name/number of the EU directive about ISO/OSI Sigh.
> Was quite a bit of annoyance back in the days.

it wouldn't be this one, by any chance?
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:51995DC0492

The "IMPACT" report, which was so "wise" that it under-estimated the
Internet - apart from a small one and a half page Chapter 1.5, page 27
where it mentions its exponential growth whilst at the same time
pointing out the difficulty to find information and the introduction of
"Software of varying degrees of sophistication, such as the
World-Wide-Web and Mosaic..."

There's also a Chapter 4 on EDI - Electronic Data Interchange, which by
itself wasn't such a bad idea, but the technologies that were proposed
were ill-suited. And then, there's the "pi?ce de r?sistance", Chapter
4.1.2 Electronic Mail which boasts the use of X.400 email. It is obvious
that the authors had never used X.400.

Chapter 7.8.1 at least mentions the growth of the Internet but does not
compare this with the puny numbers using X.400, and I don't expect
readers of that day to have reached that far down (page 107)

One additional sad thing is that, as with every Commission project, the
final document was dated 24 October 1995 and by then, with references
from 1993 and 1994, a lot of the report was obsolete. And OSI vs. IP
battle had already tipped to the advantage of IP. FYI Yahoo had been
created in January 1994. WebCrawler in April 1994. Lycos in May 1994.
Excite in October 1995. A definition of blindness on the old continent.

Kindest regards,

Olivier


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Mon Jan 13 20:12:03 2020
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:12:03 +1300
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
References: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
 <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
Message-ID: <72c90d52-0154-a750-7e98-6ee2eefa79ae@gmail.com>

On 14-Jan-20 14:03, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote:
...
> One additional sad thing is that, as with every Commission project, the
> final document was dated 24 October 1995 and by then, with references
> from 1993 and 1994, a lot of the report was obsolete. And OSI vs. IP
> battle had already tipped to the advantage of IP. FYI Yahoo had been
> created in January 1994. WebCrawler in April 1994. Lycos in May 1994.
> Excite in October 1995. A definition of blindness on the old continent.

Well yes.

Carpenter, B. E., Is OSI Too Late?, RARE Networkshop 1989, Computer Networks and ISDN Systems, 17 (1989) 284-286.

There were people in Brussels, and elswhere, who never really forgave me for that. In fact the paper didn't say unambiguously "Yes" but made it pretty clear that OSI was on life support.

I must have found Tim BL's original draft proposing the Web in my mailbox at roughly the same time that I was drafting the paper.

   Brian



From tte at cs.fau.de  Tue Jan 14 02:35:08 2020
From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:35:08 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
References: <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
 <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
Message-ID: <20200114103508.GL14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 01:03:47AM +0000, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond wrote:
> Dear Toerless,
> 
> On 13/01/2020 18:35, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote:
> > I forgot the name/number of the EU directive about ISO/OSI Sigh.
> > Was quite a bit of annoyance back in the days.
> 
> it wouldn't be this one, by any chance?
> https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX:51995DC0492

I searched yesterday for a bit on that page, but i could not find
what i thought to remember, which was an EU directive, whereas this
is a report, and i also think to remember that the directive was
earlier, maybe 1992 or before. In 1995 indeed as you say, the
battle was over. If i remember, the risk of X.400 adoption also caused
work on MIME, because the main benefit of X.400 over original rfc822
was easier sending/receiving of attachments (without having to become
a geek understanding zip/tar/base64.... And MIME seems to go back
to at least 1992, so initial implementation probably earlier.

But the directive i am thinking of was not necessarily limited to
apps (X.400/X.500) but overall ISO/OSI, including network layer i think,
probably described as "Open Standards" in EU document, hence somewhat
difficult to find.

> The "IMPACT" report, which was so "wise" that it under-estimated the
> Internet - apart from a small one and a half page Chapter 1.5, page 27
> where it mentions its exponential growth whilst at the same time
> pointing out the difficulty to find information and the introduction of
> "Software of varying degrees of sophistication, such as the
> World-Wide-Web and Mosaic..."

Yeah, lots of predecessors to http/html then for at least 5 years.

> There's also a Chapter 4 on EDI - Electronic Data Interchange, which by
> itself wasn't such a bad idea, but the technologies that were proposed
> were ill-suited. And then, there's the "pi?ce de r?sistance", Chapter
> 4.1.2 Electronic Mail which boasts the use of X.400 email. It is obvious
> that the authors had never used X.400.

> Chapter 7.8.1 at least mentions the growth of the Internet but does not
> compare this with the puny numbers using X.400, and I don't expect
> readers of that day to have reached that far down (page 107)

> One additional sad thing is that, as with every Commission project, the
> final document was dated 24 October 1995 and by then, with references
> from 1993 and 1994, a lot of the report was obsolete. And OSI vs. IP
> battle had already tipped to the advantage of IP. FYI Yahoo had been
> created in January 1994. WebCrawler in April 1994. Lycos in May 1994.
> Excite in October 1995. A definition of blindness on the old continent.

Given the average speed of IETF RFC to finalize, we are a bit sitting
in a glass house, throwing stones at other document.

I think the EU learned from the 90th ISO/OSI experience, but
IMHO only to the extend of what people call "lets make new and different
mistakes".  

Thanks for the pointers and insights.

Cheers
    Toerless

> Kindest regards,
> 
> Olivier

-- 
---
tte at cs.fau.de


From julf at julf.com  Tue Jan 14 02:37:42 2020
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:37:42 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
References: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
 <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
Message-ID: <97b1bccc-b290-c44c-09f7-d07e622b2a8e@julf.com>

On 14-01-2020 02:03, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond wrote:

> One additional sad thing is that, as with every Commission project, the
> final document was dated 24 October 1995 and by then, with references
> from 1993 and 1994, a lot of the report was obsolete. And OSI vs. IP
> battle had already tipped to the advantage of IP. FYI Yahoo had been
> created in January 1994. WebCrawler in April 1994. Lycos in May 1994.
> Excite in October 1995. A definition of blindness on the old continent.

I think it was still in 1997 or 1998 that the head of one of the ESPRIT
projects we were involved in said "Sure, you can use TCP/IP - as long as
you run it over Euro-ISDN"...

	Julf



From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Jan 14 03:03:40 2020
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:03:40 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
Message-ID: <202001141103.00EB3eSl005116@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history writes:

 >
 > c. UKC UUCP Gateway - The UUCP gateway at the University of Kent at
 > Canterbury. It was impossible to send email out via this gateway if your
 > site was not registered with UKC. Incoming email through this route
 > would trigger an email sent to me telling me "A message has been
 > received for you. Please contact xxx to arrange for delivery of this
 > message". I think that later, it mentioned who the sender was so I could
 > email the sender to tell them to route via @uunet.uu.net or
 > @decwrl.dec.com or @uucp.sun.com or @cunyvm.cuny.edu should incoming be
 > via UKACRL --- all of the "free" paths.

At first all the uucp traffic from UKC was send to the CWI (mcvax) and
we moved them along. First via philabs and seismo and later other got
added, such as decvax. It was more or less during the start of EUnet.
We quickly switched to X.25 when that came a available and after we
saturated the cross atlantic X.25 link got a fixed line into seismo
first seismo and then later in moved to uunet. That connection used
(of course) TCP/IP. Something we did for all the fixed lines that got
added.

Since we (CWI) didn't had any budget for all this and it was all
unofficial, the costs where shared with whoever was using mcvax as a
gateway.

Only in November 1988 (See also
https://godfatherof.nl/media/inetaccess.jpg) we were allowed full
routing to the Internet.

	jaap


From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Jan 14 03:15:54 2020
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:15:54 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
Message-ID: <202001141115.00EBFsn5012744@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history writes:

 >
 > I should add, this interesting article by JSQ et. al. provides a nice
 > snapshot of the variety of networks around circa 1986 and how some of
 > them were funded: https://bit.ly/2uIMhGR

The EUnet costs are mentioned there. The article itself grew into a
book, "The Matrix: Computer Networks and Conferencing Systems
Worldwide".

	jaap


From tte at cs.fau.de  Tue Jan 14 04:03:58 2020
From: tte at cs.fau.de (Toerless Eckert)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:03:58 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
References: <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
Message-ID: <20200114120358.GM14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>

On Mon, Jan 13, 2020 at 04:59:19PM +0000, Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond via Internet-history wrote:
> c. UKC UUCP Gateway - The UUCP gateway at the University of Kent at
> Canterbury. It was impossible to send email out via this gateway if your
> site was not registered with UKC. Incoming email through this route
> would trigger an email sent to me telling me "A message has been
> received for you. Please contact xxx to arrange for delivery of this
> message". I think that later, it mentioned who the sender was so I could
> email the sender to tell them to route via @uunet.uu.net or
> @decwrl.dec.com or @uucp.sun.com or @cunyvm.cuny.edu should incoming be
> via UKACRL --- all of the "free" paths.

Message routing in UUCP times was fun. You where providing your email
address down to a global map known point and as a sender you could steer
traffic across more or less congested paths.  My email for example was:

   {pyramid,unido}!fauern!eckert

where unido was the main UUCP entry point (University Dortmund) in
Germany, always heavily overloaded, so the friendly folks (csg and
others) at pyramid allowed me to connect via X.25 directly to them.
Which then entailed understanding of how not to become transit for all
of German UUCP traffic.

> I suppose that back then many of us users didn't ask "who is paying for
> it". It was pretty much a "well, I am not, but someone else obviously
> is". Of course when acceptable use policies came into effect, many
> people found out the real costs.

Or else you just collaborate with some HEP organization and draw 
from the seemingly unlimited funding from DoE. I think that was 
stadnard financing for a lot of EU/US interconnection traffic for
several years.

Cheers
    Toerless

> Kindest regards,
> 
> Olivier
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

-- 
---
tte at cs.fau.de


From julf at julf.com  Tue Jan 14 04:08:38 2020
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:08:38 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <20200114120358.GM14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
References: <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <20200114120358.GM14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
Message-ID: <dc0579c2-8c6d-3513-3055-623ac1f321c3@julf.com>

On 14-01-2020 13:03, Toerless Eckert via Internet-history wrote:

> My email for example was:
> 
>    {pyramid,unido}!fauern!eckert

I probably still have old business cards (remember those?) with
mcvax!penet!julf

	Julf



From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Jan 14 04:14:56 2020
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:14:56 +0100
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <97b1bccc-b290-c44c-09f7-d07e622b2a8e@julf.com>
References: <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <7251bd05-5586-4d38-6773-9dad7771e524@julf.com>
 <20200113183538.GI14549@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <e1d701a3-de36-96a8-4d65-54bcfc7b91dd@gih.com>
 <97b1bccc-b290-c44c-09f7-d07e622b2a8e@julf.com>
Message-ID: <202001141214.00ECEuKS042400@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Johan Helsingius via Internet-history writes:

 > I think it was still in 1997 or 1998 that the head of one of the ESPRIT
 > projects we were involved in said "Sure, you can use TCP/IP - as long as
 > you run it over Euro-ISDN"...
 >
 > 	Julf
 >
 > -- 
 > Internet-history mailing list
 > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
 > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history

In the same style I remember a Daniel Karrenberg story that for a
while he ran X.25 (Frensch version) on top of TCP/IP on top of X.25 to
a Paris institute (INRIA?) to satisfy soe French Bureaucrat/Bean
Counter.

	jaap


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Tue Jan 14 09:48:04 2020
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 12:48:04 -0500
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
Message-ID: <e7c64257-de98-4f46-cc30-2ef962e99761@meetinghouse.net>


> On 11/01/2020 19:04, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>> There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
>> arena - Who Paid For The Internet?

Hi Jack!

I expect that lots of theses have already been written on the topic.

Of course, as we both know, the answer is "after all, it was you and me."

I mean:

- tax dollars paid for some of the earliest backbones (like our 
favorites, the ARPANET and MILNET), and then for connection fees for 
university researchers to attach to some of the early academic networks.

- universities, corporations, etc. built huge amounts of infrastructure 
- paid for out of overhead & capital budgets

- corporations built a huge amount of backbone & last mile 
infrastructure, paid for from investment funds & profits

- we all pay for our home networks & end-devices out of our own pockets

- etc.

I tend to describe the Internet as the existence proof that (the 
collective) we know how to build globe-spanning, essential 
infrastructure, that is owned & controlled by billions of people & 
organizations, with nobody in control, held together by voluntary 
agreements & coordination by those who show up to things like the IETF.? 
(Kind of the model for my early work on "civic networking" and 
"electronic town halls," and more recently the model I talk about for 
how humanity might crowdsource a Green New Deal, before the planet fries.)

Cheers,

Miles



-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown



From geoff at iconia.com  Tue Jan 14 11:12:21 2020
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 09:12:21 -1000
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <e7c64257-de98-4f46-cc30-2ef962e99761@meetinghouse.net>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <e7c64257-de98-4f46-cc30-2ef962e99761@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zriEzxfM8ninRYvdX+P8v5vLzZqwV+uZgU0HDUXG4qVrSQ@mail.gmail.com>

and then, there was this:


*Data Network Raises Monopoly Fear*
By JOHN MARKOFF
The New York Times
December 19, 1991
http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/19/business/data-network-raises-monopoly-fear.html

Soon after President Bush signed legislation calling for the creation of a
nationwide computer data "superhighway," a debate has erupted over whether
the Government gave an unfair advantage to a joint venture of I.B.M. MCI
that built and manages a key part of the network.

The venture, known as Advanced Network and Services, manages a network
called NSFnet, which connects hundreds of research centers and
universities. NSFnet also manages links to dozens of other countries. All
these networks are collectively known as Internet.

Some private competitors say Advanced Network and Services uses its favored
position to squeeze them out of the data-transmission market by
establishing rules that make it difficult to connect to NSFnet.

*Traffic Has Doubled*

NSFnet was founded by the National Science Foundation, a Federal agency,
and is composed of leased telephone lines that link special computers
called routers, which transmit packages of data to three million users in
33 countries. Data traffic over the NSFnet backbone has doubled in the last
year.

The Government wants to develop a national data highway for electronic
commerce, digital video transmissions to homes and vast electronic
libraries that could be drawn on by the nation's schools.

Advanced Network and Services, based in Elmsford, N.Y., was set up last
year as a nonprofit corporation with $10 million from the International
Business Machines Corporation and the MCI Communications Corporation.
Earlier this year it set up a for-profit subsidiary, called ANS CO+RE
(pronounced core), to sell computer network services. That led some
competitors to complain that Advanced Network and Services would be able to
compete unfairly because of its arrangement with the Government.

*Fear Loss of Innovation*

People involved in planning for a national data network say it is essential
to provide for fair competition, which will lead rival companies to offer
creative and entrepreneurial services in the hope of building market share.
Without competiton, they say, the Government will have created a monopoly
that has little incentive to innovate.

"This is the first major communication business to be born under the
deregulation era," said David Farber, a computer scientist at the
University of Pennsylvania and a pioneer in data networking. "This hasn't
happened since the growth of the telephone industry. You want it to be a
business that doesn't repeat the errors of the past."

In recent years, the National Science Foundation has tried to shift its
operations and ownership of NSFnet to Advanced Network and Services. And it
will try to establish competition through contracts for networks to compete
with NSFnet next year.

But there is no level playing field, complained William L. Schrader,
president of Performance Systems International Inc., a Reston, Va., company
that provides commercial data connections to Internet. He made public two
letters between officials of Advanced Network and Services and the National
Science Foundation that he said gave the company unfair control over access
to the network. The result, he added, was that the Government turned over
valuable public property to a private company.

"It's like taking a Federal park and giving it to K Mart," Mr. Schrader
said. "It's not right, and it isn't going to stand."

Performance Systems and several other companies have set up an alternative
to NSFnet, known as a CIX. Mr. Schrader said his company and the venture of
I.B.M. and MCI were competing for the same customers but unlike his rival
he lacked a Federal subsidy. He said he might ask the Internal Revenue
Service to look at the business relationship between Advanced Network's
nonprofit and for-profit operations.

*'Very Competitive Environment'*

Allan Weis, the president of Advanced Network, disputed that his company
had an unfair advantage. "It's a very competitive environment right now,"
he said.

At the National Science Foundation, Stephen Wolff, director of its
networking division, said I.B.M. and MCI had overbuilt the network and were
selling commercial service based on the excess capacity that was available.

A number of organizations are working informally to settle the dispute.

"I think it's a mess," said Mitchell D. Kapor, the founder of the Lotus
Development Corporation and now head of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
a public-interest group focusing on public policy issues surrounding data
networks. "Nobody should have an unfair advantage."

On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:51 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:

>
> > On 11/01/2020 19:04, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
> >> There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
> >> arena - Who Paid For The Internet?
>
> Hi Jack!
>
> I expect that lots of theses have already been written on the topic.
>
> Of course, as we both know, the answer is "after all, it was you and me."
>
> I mean:
>
> - tax dollars paid for some of the earliest backbones (like our
> favorites, the ARPANET and MILNET), and then for connection fees for
> university researchers to attach to some of the early academic networks.
>
> - universities, corporations, etc. built huge amounts of infrastructure
> - paid for out of overhead & capital budgets
>
> - corporations built a huge amount of backbone & last mile
> infrastructure, paid for from investment funds & profits
>
> - we all pay for our home networks & end-devices out of our own pockets
>
> - etc.
>
> I tend to describe the Internet as the existence proof that (the
> collective) we know how to build globe-spanning, essential
> infrastructure, that is owned & controlled by billions of people &
> organizations, with nobody in control, held together by voluntary
> agreements & coordination by those who show up to things like the IETF.
> (Kind of the model for my early work on "civic networking" and
> "electronic town halls," and more recently the model I talk about for
> how humanity might crowdsource a Green New Deal, before the planet fries.)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Miles
>
>
>
> --
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>
> --
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>
>

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
http://geoff.livejournal.com


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Jan 14 11:22:43 2020
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 15 Jan 2020 08:22:43 +1300
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zriEzxfM8ninRYvdX+P8v5vLzZqwV+uZgU0HDUXG4qVrSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <e7c64257-de98-4f46-cc30-2ef962e99761@meetinghouse.net>
 <CAEf-zriEzxfM8ninRYvdX+P8v5vLzZqwV+uZgU0HDUXG4qVrSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <dfab3854-b438-db6c-f55e-504aefb96fdc@gmail.com>

And I don't think the EFF's comments then were any more accurate than their recent comments on the .org registry.

Regards
   Brian

On 15-Jan-20 08:12, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote:
> and then, there was this:
> 
> 
> *Data Network Raises Monopoly Fear*
> By JOHN MARKOFF
> The New York Times
> December 19, 1991
> http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/19/business/data-network-raises-monopoly-fear.html
> 
> Soon after President Bush signed legislation calling for the creation of a
> nationwide computer data "superhighway," a debate has erupted over whether
> the Government gave an unfair advantage to a joint venture of I.B.M. MCI
> that built and manages a key part of the network.
> 
> The venture, known as Advanced Network and Services, manages a network
> called NSFnet, which connects hundreds of research centers and
> universities. NSFnet also manages links to dozens of other countries. All
> these networks are collectively known as Internet.
> 
> Some private competitors say Advanced Network and Services uses its favored
> position to squeeze them out of the data-transmission market by
> establishing rules that make it difficult to connect to NSFnet.
> 
> *Traffic Has Doubled*
> 
> NSFnet was founded by the National Science Foundation, a Federal agency,
> and is composed of leased telephone lines that link special computers
> called routers, which transmit packages of data to three million users in
> 33 countries. Data traffic over the NSFnet backbone has doubled in the last
> year.
> 
> The Government wants to develop a national data highway for electronic
> commerce, digital video transmissions to homes and vast electronic
> libraries that could be drawn on by the nation's schools.
> 
> Advanced Network and Services, based in Elmsford, N.Y., was set up last
> year as a nonprofit corporation with $10 million from the International
> Business Machines Corporation and the MCI Communications Corporation.
> Earlier this year it set up a for-profit subsidiary, called ANS CO+RE
> (pronounced core), to sell computer network services. That led some
> competitors to complain that Advanced Network and Services would be able to
> compete unfairly because of its arrangement with the Government.
> 
> *Fear Loss of Innovation*
> 
> People involved in planning for a national data network say it is essential
> to provide for fair competition, which will lead rival companies to offer
> creative and entrepreneurial services in the hope of building market share.
> Without competiton, they say, the Government will have created a monopoly
> that has little incentive to innovate.
> 
> "This is the first major communication business to be born under the
> deregulation era," said David Farber, a computer scientist at the
> University of Pennsylvania and a pioneer in data networking. "This hasn't
> happened since the growth of the telephone industry. You want it to be a
> business that doesn't repeat the errors of the past."
> 
> In recent years, the National Science Foundation has tried to shift its
> operations and ownership of NSFnet to Advanced Network and Services. And it
> will try to establish competition through contracts for networks to compete
> with NSFnet next year.
> 
> But there is no level playing field, complained William L. Schrader,
> president of Performance Systems International Inc., a Reston, Va., company
> that provides commercial data connections to Internet. He made public two
> letters between officials of Advanced Network and Services and the National
> Science Foundation that he said gave the company unfair control over access
> to the network. The result, he added, was that the Government turned over
> valuable public property to a private company.
> 
> "It's like taking a Federal park and giving it to K Mart," Mr. Schrader
> said. "It's not right, and it isn't going to stand."
> 
> Performance Systems and several other companies have set up an alternative
> to NSFnet, known as a CIX. Mr. Schrader said his company and the venture of
> I.B.M. and MCI were competing for the same customers but unlike his rival
> he lacked a Federal subsidy. He said he might ask the Internal Revenue
> Service to look at the business relationship between Advanced Network's
> nonprofit and for-profit operations.
> 
> *'Very Competitive Environment'*
> 
> Allan Weis, the president of Advanced Network, disputed that his company
> had an unfair advantage. "It's a very competitive environment right now,"
> he said.
> 
> At the National Science Foundation, Stephen Wolff, director of its
> networking division, said I.B.M. and MCI had overbuilt the network and were
> selling commercial service based on the excess capacity that was available.
> 
> A number of organizations are working informally to settle the dispute.
> 
> "I think it's a mess," said Mitchell D. Kapor, the founder of the Lotus
> Development Corporation and now head of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
> a public-interest group focusing on public policy issues surrounding data
> networks. "Nobody should have an unfair advantage."
> 
> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:51 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
>>
>>> On 11/01/2020 19:04, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
>>>> arena - Who Paid For The Internet?
>>
>> Hi Jack!
>>
>> I expect that lots of theses have already been written on the topic.
>>
>> Of course, as we both know, the answer is "after all, it was you and me."
>>
>> I mean:
>>
>> - tax dollars paid for some of the earliest backbones (like our
>> favorites, the ARPANET and MILNET), and then for connection fees for
>> university researchers to attach to some of the early academic networks.
>>
>> - universities, corporations, etc. built huge amounts of infrastructure
>> - paid for out of overhead & capital budgets
>>
>> - corporations built a huge amount of backbone & last mile
>> infrastructure, paid for from investment funds & profits
>>
>> - we all pay for our home networks & end-devices out of our own pockets
>>
>> - etc.
>>
>> I tend to describe the Internet as the existence proof that (the
>> collective) we know how to build globe-spanning, essential
>> infrastructure, that is owned & controlled by billions of people &
>> organizations, with nobody in control, held together by voluntary
>> agreements & coordination by those who show up to things like the IETF.
>> (Kind of the model for my early work on "civic networking" and
>> "electronic town halls," and more recently the model I talk about for
>> how humanity might crowdsource a Green New Deal, before the planet fries.)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Miles
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>>
>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>>
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>
>>
> 


From geoff at iconia.com  Tue Jan 14 15:14:09 2020
From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:14:09 -1000
Subject: [ih] vint cerf thoughts on the .ORG Ethos/ISOC/PIR transaction...
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrgHSSJrmXLb86WbRFh3NfOFg4WMGtoSeOpNmbApzCODNA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zri1KQ6axsA23HSTSzA59xLdU+zAqO30UW9ONkG1NZsqLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrgHSSJrmXLb86WbRFh3NfOFg4WMGtoSeOpNmbApzCODNA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEf-zrjXkcLstoXB1uwq+up4a5xtgCoZDoW=bF4yrqPD6aEwYQ@mail.gmail.com>

real time Internet History in the making:

https://medium.com/@vint_4444/a-stronger-future-for-org-and-the-internet-52002a8268cf

-- 
Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
living as The Truth is True
http://geoff.livejournal.com


From gnu at toad.com  Tue Jan 14 17:26:53 2020
From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:26:53 -0800
Subject: [ih] John Quarterman's Matrix book is online
In-Reply-To: <202001141115.00EBFsn5012744@bela.nlnetlabs.nl> 
References: <CAHxHggehp-1riyO=a5nuJo-LJM5hK6awEuhOw=3bei-ignTOTg@mail.gmail.com>
 <1ee21859-f609-9109-ceb9-726151e48c6c@gmail.com>
 <20200108193809.GX8801@faui48f.informatik.uni-erlangen.de>
 <D66640E4-CF42-47AD-B9CD-BC5DCF41FE3F@gmail.com>
 <CAHxHggcWjpYAF9-EYuaA4tqSN0JymREsfiGyUOBeSKVQBPpK4A@mail.gmail.com>
 <b7e3db62-f6d6-151b-2a8b-911e29968df3@3kitty.org>
 <CAHxHggfXc3Cd5UnFmoT99eW+J1NdTNC_aVJ=s9s_LX=u1mV-9w@mail.gmail.com>
 <2219e07d-e867-4711-b915-83a0bf52b0e5@3kitty.org>
 <3ce585bd-3a8c-ef4f-cde9-530452c55865@gmail.com>
 <f031f9f7-c63e-7df3-2468-128f5c5a48e1@3kitty.org>
 <8ce9e83a-3d2d-217f-072f-12744c7fb0fc@gih.com>
 <7bf0053a-e040-716d-f297-7679f4b0b257@gih.com>
 <202001141115.00EBFsn5012744@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
Message-ID: <27244.1579051613@hop.toad.com>

>  Olivier MJ Cr??pin-Leblond via Internet-history writes:
>  > > I should add, this interesting article by JSQ et. al. provides a nice
> snapshot of the variety of networks around circa 1986 and how some of
> them were funded: https://bit.ly/2uIMhGR

Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
> The EUnet costs are mentioned there. The article itself grew into a book, "The Matrix: Computer Networks and Conferencing Systems Worldwide".
> 	jaap

Quarterman's book has been scanned in and is in the Internet Archive,
readable online (or downloadable with a click) from here:

  https://archive.org/stream/matrixcomputernet00quar

	John


From woody at pch.net  Tue Jan 14 17:41:10 2020
From: woody at pch.net (Bill Woodcock)
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 17:41:10 -0800
Subject: [ih] vint cerf thoughts on the .ORG Ethos/ISOC/PIR
 transaction...
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zrjXkcLstoXB1uwq+up4a5xtgCoZDoW=bF4yrqPD6aEwYQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zri1KQ6axsA23HSTSzA59xLdU+zAqO30UW9ONkG1NZsqLw@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrgHSSJrmXLb86WbRFh3NfOFg4WMGtoSeOpNmbApzCODNA@mail.gmail.com>
 <CAEf-zrjXkcLstoXB1uwq+up4a5xtgCoZDoW=bF4yrqPD6aEwYQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C8056021-3525-4747-A9B7-B92B7B4BB11B@pch.net>



> On Jan 14, 2020, at 3:14 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> real time Internet History in the making:

Yeah, it?s been particularly interesting for me, digging back into all the 2002 criteria and evaluation, and working with Mike and Esther, and seeing just how much our expectations have ratcheted down over the past eighteen years.

Some interesting reading, for instance:   https://archive.icann.org/en/tlds/org/ncdnhc-evaluation-report-19aug02.pdf

It?s fascinating watching the non-profit community learning from from the last failure, and coming together to craft a solution that will better live up to their needs this time.

                                -Bill

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From dan at lynch.com  Fri Jan 17 12:50:36 2020
From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 12:50:36 -0800
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <CAEf-zriEzxfM8ninRYvdX+P8v5vLzZqwV+uZgU0HDUXG4qVrSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEf-zriEzxfM8ninRYvdX+P8v5vLzZqwV+uZgU0HDUXG4qVrSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EBBEB41A-7233-496D-849D-B442BB289224@lynch.com>

And what ever happened to ANS and PSI?  I?m pretty sure PSI went bankrupt after naming the Baltimore Ravens Stadium long ago. But ANS CO+RE seems to have been sold to AOL long ago. Ah, capitalism...

Dan

Cell 650-776-7313

> On Jan 14, 2020, at 11:16 AM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history <internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
> 
> ?and then, there was this:
> 
> 
> *Data Network Raises Monopoly Fear*
> By JOHN MARKOFF
> The New York Times
> December 19, 1991
> http://www.nytimes.com/1991/12/19/business/data-network-raises-monopoly-fear.html
> 
> Soon after President Bush signed legislation calling for the creation of a
> nationwide computer data "superhighway," a debate has erupted over whether
> the Government gave an unfair advantage to a joint venture of I.B.M. MCI
> that built and manages a key part of the network.
> 
> The venture, known as Advanced Network and Services, manages a network
> called NSFnet, which connects hundreds of research centers and
> universities. NSFnet also manages links to dozens of other countries. All
> these networks are collectively known as Internet.
> 
> Some private competitors say Advanced Network and Services uses its favored
> position to squeeze them out of the data-transmission market by
> establishing rules that make it difficult to connect to NSFnet.
> 
> *Traffic Has Doubled*
> 
> NSFnet was founded by the National Science Foundation, a Federal agency,
> and is composed of leased telephone lines that link special computers
> called routers, which transmit packages of data to three million users in
> 33 countries. Data traffic over the NSFnet backbone has doubled in the last
> year.
> 
> The Government wants to develop a national data highway for electronic
> commerce, digital video transmissions to homes and vast electronic
> libraries that could be drawn on by the nation's schools.
> 
> Advanced Network and Services, based in Elmsford, N.Y., was set up last
> year as a nonprofit corporation with $10 million from the International
> Business Machines Corporation and the MCI Communications Corporation.
> Earlier this year it set up a for-profit subsidiary, called ANS CO+RE
> (pronounced core), to sell computer network services. That led some
> competitors to complain that Advanced Network and Services would be able to
> compete unfairly because of its arrangement with the Government.
> 
> *Fear Loss of Innovation*
> 
> People involved in planning for a national data network say it is essential
> to provide for fair competition, which will lead rival companies to offer
> creative and entrepreneurial services in the hope of building market share.
> Without competiton, they say, the Government will have created a monopoly
> that has little incentive to innovate.
> 
> "This is the first major communication business to be born under the
> deregulation era," said David Farber, a computer scientist at the
> University of Pennsylvania and a pioneer in data networking. "This hasn't
> happened since the growth of the telephone industry. You want it to be a
> business that doesn't repeat the errors of the past."
> 
> In recent years, the National Science Foundation has tried to shift its
> operations and ownership of NSFnet to Advanced Network and Services. And it
> will try to establish competition through contracts for networks to compete
> with NSFnet next year.
> 
> But there is no level playing field, complained William L. Schrader,
> president of Performance Systems International Inc., a Reston, Va., company
> that provides commercial data connections to Internet. He made public two
> letters between officials of Advanced Network and Services and the National
> Science Foundation that he said gave the company unfair control over access
> to the network. The result, he added, was that the Government turned over
> valuable public property to a private company.
> 
> "It's like taking a Federal park and giving it to K Mart," Mr. Schrader
> said. "It's not right, and it isn't going to stand."
> 
> Performance Systems and several other companies have set up an alternative
> to NSFnet, known as a CIX. Mr. Schrader said his company and the venture of
> I.B.M. and MCI were competing for the same customers but unlike his rival
> he lacked a Federal subsidy. He said he might ask the Internal Revenue
> Service to look at the business relationship between Advanced Network's
> nonprofit and for-profit operations.
> 
> *'Very Competitive Environment'*
> 
> Allan Weis, the president of Advanced Network, disputed that his company
> had an unfair advantage. "It's a very competitive environment right now,"
> he said.
> 
> At the National Science Foundation, Stephen Wolff, director of its
> networking division, said I.B.M. and MCI had overbuilt the network and were
> selling commercial service based on the excess capacity that was available.
> 
> A number of organizations are working informally to settle the dispute.
> 
> "I think it's a mess," said Mitchell D. Kapor, the founder of the Lotus
> Development Corporation and now head of the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
> a public-interest group focusing on public policy issues surrounding data
> networks. "Nobody should have an unfair advantage."
> 
>> On Tue, Jan 14, 2020 at 7:51 AM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history <
>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 11/01/2020 19:04, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:
>>>> There's probably a PhD thesis or two to be done in that early-Internet
>>>> arena - Who Paid For The Internet?
>> 
>> Hi Jack!
>> 
>> I expect that lots of theses have already been written on the topic.
>> 
>> Of course, as we both know, the answer is "after all, it was you and me."
>> 
>> I mean:
>> 
>> - tax dollars paid for some of the earliest backbones (like our
>> favorites, the ARPANET and MILNET), and then for connection fees for
>> university researchers to attach to some of the early academic networks.
>> 
>> - universities, corporations, etc. built huge amounts of infrastructure
>> - paid for out of overhead & capital budgets
>> 
>> - corporations built a huge amount of backbone & last mile
>> infrastructure, paid for from investment funds & profits
>> 
>> - we all pay for our home networks & end-devices out of our own pockets
>> 
>> - etc.
>> 
>> I tend to describe the Internet as the existence proof that (the
>> collective) we know how to build globe-spanning, essential
>> infrastructure, that is owned & controlled by billions of people &
>> organizations, with nobody in control, held together by voluntary
>> agreements & coordination by those who show up to things like the IETF.
>> (Kind of the model for my early work on "civic networking" and
>> "electronic town halls," and more recently the model I talk about for
>> how humanity might crowdsource a Green New Deal, before the planet fries.)
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Miles
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
>> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
>> 
>> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
>> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
>> In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
>> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
>> 
>> --
>> Internet-history mailing list
>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com
> living as The Truth is True
> http://geoff.livejournal.com
> -- 
> Internet-history mailing list
> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org
> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history



From mark at good-stuff.co.uk  Fri Jan 17 13:11:18 2020
From: mark at good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge)
Date: Fri, 17 Jan 2020 21:11:18 +0000
Subject: [ih] Who Paid for the Internet? (was Re: sad news: Peter
 Kirstein)
In-Reply-To: <EBBEB41A-7233-496D-849D-B442BB289224@lynch.com>
References: <CAEf-zriEzxfM8ninRYvdX+P8v5vLzZqwV+uZgU0HDUXG4qVrSQ@mail.gmail.com>
 <EBBEB41A-7233-496D-849D-B442BB289224@lynch.com>
Message-ID: <e1ff8e63-1c30-a720-944f-993b66dd965a@good-stuff.co.uk>



On 17/01/2020 20:50, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote:
> And what ever happened to ANS and PSI?  I?m pretty sure PSI went
> bankrupt after naming the Baltimore Ravens Stadium long ago. But ANS
> CO+RE seems to have been sold to AOL long ago. Ah, capitalism...

PSINet went bust shortly after I quit my job with them in 2002. I don't 
think there is a causal relationship there :-)

They were already in Chapter 11 when I left, and had been struggling for 
a long time. IIRC, the main reason for the failure was a series of 
unwise acquisitions, but some bad sales-related decisions were a part of 
it. PSINet Europe was the hosting provider fo Boo.com; when Boo went 
bust they left their creditors high and dry and that blew a big hole in 
our income too.

I am, still, annoyed with myself for not cashing in my share options 
when they were at their peak. I was just about to, when they dipped a 
bit, and I thought I'd hang on until they went back up again. But they 
never did...

Mark