From Jacques.Latour at cira.ca Wed Feb 5 12:33:46 2020 From: Jacques.Latour at cira.ca (Jacques Latour) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 20:33:46 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file Message-ID: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Hi all, How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? Thanks, Jacques From michael at kjorling.se Wed Feb 5 12:53:39 2020 From: michael at kjorling.se (Michael =?utf-8?B?S2rDtnJsaW5n?=) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 20:53:39 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): > How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into action". RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those (net) added post-DNS. -- Michael Kj?rling ? https://michael.kjorling.se ? michael at kjorling.se ?Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?? From el at lisse.NA Wed Feb 5 13:02:01 2020 From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 23:02:01 +0200 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: <92836376-9136-b849-052a-0dcb12e2c7e8@lisse.NA> Jacques, I discussed this with Paul Mockapetris for the presentation I gave to GAC onboarding, and he wrote me that the size was not the real issue, but the workload it took (to update it). I think Paul reads here, so he can tell you much better :-)-O greetings, el On 2020-02-05 22:33 , Jacques Latour via Internet-history wrote: > Hi all, > > How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > Thanks, > > Jacques > -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar) el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 / Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 14:15:55 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:15:55 +1300 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: A little Google work got me: https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]22 June 1985, 1528 hostnames. https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]25 December 1986, 4480 hostnames. https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]27 May 1987, 5343 hostnames. https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]29 November 1988, 7083 hostnames. Compare these to the RFC1296 size estimates of the Internet: 1985: 1961 nodes 1986: 5089 1987: 28174 1988: 56000 In other words, the NIC table was overwhelmed by growth by 1986 and its size had ceased to matter by then. From those numbers, it looks as if DNS superseded hosts.txt in practice around mid-1986. Read the introductory text of RFC1296 for more. Regards Brian Carpenter On 06-Feb-20 09:53, Michael Kj?rling via Internet-history wrote: > On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): >> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. > > RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, > that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into > action". > > RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth > for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an > IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. > > The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July > 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. > > Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't > instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be > a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. > > Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have > passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those > (net) added post-DNS. > From touch at strayalpha.com Wed Feb 5 16:52:10 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 16:52:10 -0800 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: FWIW - the host file was only for off-site systems; it was (AFAICT typically) augmented with the local list of hosts. At some places, ihis was fairly large as well. Joe > On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > A little Google work got me: > > https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]22 > June 1985, 1528 hostnames. > > https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]25 > December 1986, 4480 hostnames. > > https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]27 > May 1987, 5343 hostnames. > > https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]29 > November 1988, 7083 hostnames. > > Compare these to the RFC1296 size estimates of the Internet: > > 1985: 1961 nodes > 1986: 5089 > 1987: 28174 > 1988: 56000 > > In other words, the NIC table was overwhelmed by growth by 1986 and its size had ceased to matter by then. From those numbers, it looks as if DNS superseded hosts.txt in practice around mid-1986. Read the introductory text of RFC1296 for more. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 06-Feb-20 09:53, Michael Kj?rling via Internet-history wrote: >> On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): >>> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? >> >> I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. >> >> RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, >> that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into >> action". >> >> RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth >> for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an >> IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. >> >> The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July >> 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. >> >> Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't >> instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be >> a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. >> >> Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have >> passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those >> (net) added post-DNS. >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Feb 5 18:10:51 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:10:51 +1300 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: Yes, and the ones I found were augmented for Stanford; I didn't find raw NIC files. Maybe they are somewhere. Regards Brian On 06-Feb-20 13:52, Joseph Touch wrote: > FWIW - the host file was only for off-site systems; it was (AFAICT typically) augmented with the local list of hosts. At some places, ihis was fairly large as well. > > Joe > >> On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> >> A little Google work got me: >> >> https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]22 >> June 1985, 1528 hostnames. >> >> https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]25 >> December 1986, 4480 hostnames. >> >> https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]27 >> May 1987, 5343 hostnames. >> >> https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]29 >> November 1988, 7083 hostnames. >> >> Compare these to the RFC1296 size estimates of the Internet: >> >> 1985: 1961 nodes >> 1986: 5089 >> 1987: 28174 >> 1988: 56000 >> >> In other words, the NIC table was overwhelmed by growth by 1986 and its size had ceased to matter by then. From those numbers, it looks as if DNS superseded hosts.txt in practice around mid-1986. Read the introductory text of RFC1296 for more. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 06-Feb-20 09:53, Michael Kj?rling via Internet-history wrote: >>> On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): >>>> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? >>> >>> I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. >>> >>> RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, >>> that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into >>> action". >>> >>> RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth >>> for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an >>> IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. >>> >>> The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July >>> 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. >>> >>> Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't >>> instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be >>> a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. >>> >>> Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have >>> passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those >>> (net) added post-DNS. >>> >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > From geoff at iconia.com Wed Feb 5 19:04:24 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 20:04:24 -0700 Subject: [ih] Before the DNS: How yours truly upstaged The NIC's Official HOSTS.TXT (An Internet history lesson) Message-ID: copy and pasted from https://iconia.com/before_the_dns.txt: Back in the early '70s of the ARPANET... before the Domain Name System (DNS) even existed, the Network Information Center (NIC) based at SRI International controlled and distributed The Official Host Table for The Net called HOSTS.TXT. The NIC updated this table through "official channels" and host administrators would periodically transfer over a new version of the table to their systems. There was Just One Problem: The Official Channels took forever for the NIC to update HOSTS.TXT and therefore The Nets host table was frequently out of date with the reality of what was actually up and operating on The Net. What I did, as a nobody teenager and budding system and network janitor at the time, was to notice new "nameless" hosts when they came up on the net by looking at a 'netstat' of hosts that did not have host names and only showed up as numbers. This was easy because in those early days the Network Control Program known as NCP (this was before TCP/IP) would broadcast messages called RSTs to every possible host address on the network when they booted. What RSTs did was say to a host: "Hi there, please mark me as UP in your netstat listing and if you have any left over connections from the time I went down, please reset them". I would then telnet or ftp to these nameless hosts and see what host name the operating system login prompt gave me or what host name the ftp server announced in its greeting. I would then plug this information into my systems host table. Word started to spread through the grapevine to other system and network janitors that my system's host table was the most up to date on The Net. You can imagine what happened next: many system administrators started to reference my host table instead of the NIC's. Someone suggested I create a notification list so that every time my hostable was updated they would know to install a new one (Some even installed automated daily processes that would transfer over my host table without any human intervention.) When the NIC got wind of being upstaged by this guerilla/underground host table information gathering and distribution network, they were mightily unhappy about having their monopoly authority challenged. but, EACH OF THE SYSTEM ADMINISTRATORS MADE AN INDIVIDUAL CHOICE: Geoff Goodfellow's hostable was more up to date and better managed than the NIC's Official HOSTS.TXT table, so WE CHOOSE TO USE IT. There was absolutely nothing the NIC could do to stop these individual system admins from each making their own decision about who they wanted to trust and where to get the most up to date host information. As far as I know my host table was the preferred host table used by the majority of sites on The Net until the DNS came along and host tables became moot. Please note that I did not develop my host table for the net. I just needed one for my site that was more up-to-date, so I figured out how to create it. Then my friends copied it, and word spread, and the market made its free choice. Of course, I did not mind this happening, since they were just copying what I needed to make for myself. -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True http://geoff.livejournal.com From paf at frobbit.se Wed Feb 5 21:53:31 2020 From: paf at frobbit.se (Patrik =?utf-8?b?RsOkbHRzdHLDtm0=?=) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 06:53:31 +0100 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: <1003FA19-6DAA-4EA0-8694-3698B66E42BE@frobbit.se> On 5 Feb 2020, at 23:15, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]29 > November 1988, 7083 hostnames. In 1986 I was hired to work on hs.c which converted HOSTS.TXT to DNS zone file(s). This at SUNET/NorduNET to prepare for our connection which was added between KTH and JvNC in late November 1988 (we can say December 1, 1988). Our networks (like 130.237.0.0/16) are in the list above, but none of the hosts. I think we from October 1996 did run mostly DNS where we could. So I agree with people saying DNS took over 1986-1988, specifically when large(r) number of hosts where added like the addition of large portions of Europe during the late 1980-ies (and similar additions in the US I presume). Much thanks to Cisco starting to deliver their first routers. Patrik -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 256 bytes Desc: OpenPGP digital signature URL: From galmes at tamu.edu Wed Feb 5 22:54:27 2020 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Wed, 5 Feb 2020 22:54:27 -0800 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: Two other phenomena of the years before the DNS came into use was that some sites would (in a sense) reserve a series of names so that, as host computers were acquired, these hosts would have related names. So the first phenomenon was the set of imaginative naming conventions, famously starting with the use of plants from the Sunset Garden book at PARC, were interesting in themselves. Names of planets and names of characters from Leave it to Beaver were among the less famous examples. Many members of this list can probably remember local examples. When the net was young, a given site might be known for such a name set, then if a new host that fit that name series came up, people would know/suspect that the host was from the site known for that set of names. The second phenomenon was the reserving of names for hosts that did not yet exist. This reserving was necessary to preserve the integrity of the logic of a series of names. But I mention it because, when I looked at a hosts.txt file in 1984, it seemed that the size of the file was significantly influenced by this 'reserving'. I mention this, in part, let anyone assume that the number of entries in a given hosts.txt file was an accurate estimate of the number of actually existing hosts. -- Guy On 2/5/20 16:52, Joseph Touch via Internet-history wrote: > FWIW - the host file was only for off-site systems; it was (AFAICT typically) augmented with the local list of hosts. At some places, ihis was fairly large as well. > > Joe > >> On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> >> A little Google work got me: >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D22&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=Wy7u4JRpgkO3nTQT36WqlweJpOzk8zVWmK5KXNB0j2o&e= >> June 1985, 1528 hostnames. >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D25&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=yj1oLTK106ZsuGeDLdGAd2twzBe2FTPf0o5m3SDToag&e= >> December 1986, 4480 hostnames. >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D27&d=DwIreGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=ARi6x1MM5KkZSD3EF-ca89vFLytQnDZePbJ4MmsoQGo&e= >> May 1987, 5343 hostnames. >> >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D29&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=c6jsTZJDTm9mwDjob6SAzXVFsfSz98H0BnaIVASnvpI&e= >> November 1988, 7083 hostnames. >> >> Compare these to the RFC1296 size estimates of the Internet: >> >> 1985: 1961 nodes >> 1986: 5089 >> 1987: 28174 >> 1988: 56000 >> >> In other words, the NIC table was overwhelmed by growth by 1986 and its size had ceased to matter by then. From those numbers, it looks as if DNS superseded hosts.txt in practice around mid-1986. Read the introductory text of RFC1296 for more. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 06-Feb-20 09:53, Michael Kj?rling via Internet-history wrote: >>> On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): >>>> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? >>> >>> I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. >>> >>> RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, >>> that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into >>> action". >>> >>> RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth >>> for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an >>> IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. >>> >>> The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July >>> 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. >>> >>> Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't >>> instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be >>> a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. >>> >>> Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have >>> passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those >>> (net) added post-DNS. >>> >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__elists.isoc.org_mailman_listinfo_internet-2Dhistory&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=G-sPcMv8k9OInslwvFdMLjUpwaws_qR-7eBPsssyDJA&e= > From Tim.Chown at jisc.ac.uk Thu Feb 6 00:14:42 2020 From: Tim.Chown at jisc.ac.uk (Tim Chown) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:14:42 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: <05ACBFFC-D589-41B9-9FEE-DDDE1C76B4CE@jisc.ac.uk> These files are another implicit tribute to Peter Kirstein at UCL, who brought the Internet as was to the UK, and which also reminds me of the days of the UK NRS in which domains were held in a similar text file but registered big-endian for the colour book protocols the UK used at the time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET_NRS We then also had the fun of determining how to handle email to uk.ibm.com. Tim On 5 Feb 2020, at 22:15, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history > wrote: A little Google work got me: https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]22 June 1985, 1528 hostnames. https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]25 December 1986, 4480 hostnames. https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]27 May 1987, 5343 hostnames. https://www.saildart.org/allow/HOSTS.TXT[HST,NET]29 November 1988, 7083 hostnames. Compare these to the RFC1296 size estimates of the Internet: 1985: 1961 nodes 1986: 5089 1987: 28174 1988: 56000 In other words, the NIC table was overwhelmed by growth by 1986 and its size had ceased to matter by then. From those numbers, it looks as if DNS superseded hosts.txt in practice around mid-1986. Read the introductory text of RFC1296 for more. Regards Brian Carpenter On 06-Feb-20 09:53, Michael Kj?rling via Internet-history wrote: On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into action". RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those (net) added post-DNS. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From lars at nocrew.org Thu Feb 6 00:28:29 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 08:28:29 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> (Jacques Latour via Internet-history's message of "Wed, 5 Feb 2020 20:33:46 +0000") References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jacques Latour wrote: > How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? I'd like to go in the other direction. What are the smallest recorded hosts files? An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Feb 6 04:10:41 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:10:41 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> Why was it so large? There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the maximum number then still 64? John > On Feb 6, 2020, at 03:28, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > > Jacques Latour wrote: >> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > I'd like to go in the other direction. What are the smallest recorded > hosts files? > > An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 04:15:32 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:15:32 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> Message-ID: there was provision for up to 4 hosts per IMP and we even had a "port extender" for IP addresses as TCP/IP rolled out. So I don't think 64 was the limit. v On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:10 AM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Why was it so large? > > There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the maximum > number then still 64? > > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 03:28, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > Jacques Latour wrote: > >> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > > > I'd like to go in the other direction. What are the smallest recorded > > hosts files? > > > > An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Feb 6 04:46:01 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:46:01 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> Message-ID: <05E81E21-5E98-43CB-B949-0144254EF875@comcast.net> Yes, 4 hosts per IMP was included in the 64. The IMP protocols were modified once or twice later in the 70s to allow to increase the number of hosts. But I didn?t think that happened as early as 1973. I didn?t realize TCP/IP was being rolled out in 1973. Interesting. Take care, John > On Feb 6, 2020, at 07:15, vinton cerf wrote: > > there was provision for up to 4 hosts per IMP and we even had a "port extender" for IP addresses as TCP/IP rolled out. So I don't think 64 was the limit. > > v > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:10 AM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: > Why was it so large? > > There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the maximum number then still 64? > > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 03:28, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history > wrote: > > > > Jacques Latour wrote: > >> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > > > I'd like to go in the other direction. What are the smallest recorded > > hosts files? > > > > An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Thu Feb 6 04:50:46 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:50:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <05E81E21-5E98-43CB-B949-0144254EF875@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <05E81E21-5E98-43CB-B949-0144254EF875@comcast.net> Message-ID: no, it wasn't being rolled out in 1973; i was just thinking about an attempt to expand IP address space using a device that that we put on the IMPs in the course of doing packet radio work in the mid/late 1970s. That was not unlike the addition of more than one host by jiggering the address fields of the IMPs fairly early in the ARPANET roll out. v On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:46 AM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Yes, 4 hosts per IMP was included in the 64. > > The IMP protocols were modified once or twice later in the 70s to allow to > increase the number of hosts. But I didn?t think that happened as early as > 1973. > > I didn?t realize TCP/IP was being rolled out in 1973. Interesting. > > Take care, > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 07:15, vinton cerf wrote: > > > > there was provision for up to 4 hosts per IMP and we even had a "port > extender" for IP addresses as TCP/IP rolled out. So I don't think 64 was > the limit. > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:10 AM John Day via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > wrote: > > Why was it so large? > > > > There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the > maximum number then still 64? > > > > John > > > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 03:28, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > wrote: > > > > > > Jacques Latour wrote: > > >> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > > > > > I'd like to go in the other direction. What are the smallest recorded > > > hosts files? > > > > > > An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > > > -- > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history < > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history> > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org Internet-history at elists.isoc.org> > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history < > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- New postal address: Google 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 From lars at nocrew.org Thu Feb 6 05:40:33 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 13:40:33 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> (John Day's message of "Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:10:41 -0500") References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> John Day wrote: > Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > Why was it so large? > > There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the > maximum number then still 64? Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. From nigel at channelisles.net Thu Feb 6 05:55:19 2020 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:55:19 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <74ed1d9d-bcfd-b54d-52a7-8a05fcc4f0ee@channelisles.net> In 1978 MIT-AI was @O to to 134 and MIT-DM was 70. I think SAIL was 26 or 28, or maybe 6. So my hazy recollection is that there were less that 255 unique hosts. On 06/02/2020 13:40, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > John Day wrote: >> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. >> Why was it so large? >> >> There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the >> maximum number then still 64? > > Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in > alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. > > There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. > From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Feb 6 05:57:14 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:57:14 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> Then I was wrong. 64 was just IMP numbers. Ports were separate. How many IMPs have multiple hosts? Stanford, MIT, BBN, UCLA, I know. Who else? John > On Feb 6, 2020, at 08:40, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > John Day wrote: >> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. >> Why was it so large? >> >> There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the >> maximum number then still 64? > > Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in > alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. > > There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. From sob at sobco.com Thu Feb 6 06:07:45 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:07:45 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <432F93C1-5484-4B45-87EB-BDBA48BFA55E@sobco.com> Harvard had multiple at some point (remote to BU I think) and remote to Craig Fields machine in the Psychology department) Scott > On Feb 6, 2020, at 8:57 AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > Then I was wrong. 64 was just IMP numbers. Ports were separate. > > How many IMPs have multiple hosts? Stanford, MIT, BBN, UCLA, I know. Who else? > > John > >> On Feb 6, 2020, at 08:40, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> >> John Day wrote: >>> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. >>> Why was it so large? >>> >>> There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the >>> maximum number then still 64? >> >> Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in >> alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. >> >> There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From craig at tereschau.net Thu Feb 6 06:44:26 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:44:26 -0700 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> Message-ID: I pulled up my ARPANET map collection. The map does not show how many connections were at each IMP, but you can make some informed guesses. In September 1983 (pre-MILNET split), there are multiple sites with multiple IMPs. I'm guessing that we typically used up all the IMP ports before giving someone another IMP. So... ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. Thanks, Craig PS: The map reading led to a trivia question -- which locations were the last ones to use IMPs with the old Honeywell hardware.... (NYC, NSA, Texas, and TYM [I don't recall who TYM was]). This per the April 1983 map. On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:03 AM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Then I was wrong. 64 was just IMP numbers. Ports were separate. > > How many IMPs have multiple hosts? Stanford, MIT, BBN, UCLA, I know. Who > else? > > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 08:40, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > > > John Day wrote: > >> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > >>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > >> Why was it so large? > >> > >> There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the > >> maximum number then still 64? > > > > Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in > > alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. > > > > There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Feb 6 06:48:21 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 14:48:21 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: (Craig Partridge's message of "Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:44:26 -0700") References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Craig Partridge wrote: > ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had > two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. cmu-10alt 116 cmu-cc 016 ll-67 012 ll-tsp 212 ll-tx2 112 parc-maxc 040 parc-vts 140 rand-csg 107 rand-rcc 007 From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 06:59:37 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:59:37 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Could TYM have been Tymshare Corp? On Thu, Feb 6, 2020, 09:48 Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Craig Partridge wrote: > > ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had > > two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. > > Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. > > Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. > > cmu-10alt 116 > cmu-cc 016 > > ll-67 012 > ll-tsp 212 > ll-tx2 112 > > parc-maxc 040 > parc-vts 140 > > rand-csg 107 > rand-rcc 007 > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Feb 6 07:21:45 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 10:21:45 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. I am guessing this was more reserving names. il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not put on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the machine was moved to UCSD. There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 and a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own IMP. I will have to do some checking. John > On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Craig Partridge wrote: >> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had >> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. > > Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. > > Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. > > cmu-10alt 116 > cmu-cc 016 > > ll-67 012 > ll-tsp 212 > ll-tx2 112 > > parc-maxc 040 > parc-vts 140 > > rand-csg 107 > rand-rcc 007 From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Feb 6 07:26:33 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 10:26:33 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> Message-ID: What caused the B6700 to be moved to UCSD? On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. > I am guessing this was more reserving names. > > il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not put > on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the > machine was moved to UCSD. > There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 and > a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. > For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own > IMP. > > I will have to do some checking. > > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > > > Craig Partridge wrote: > >> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had > >> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. > > > > Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. > > > > Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. > > > > cmu-10alt 116 > > cmu-cc 016 > > > > ll-67 012 > > ll-tsp 212 > > ll-tx2 112 > > > > parc-maxc 040 > > parc-vts 140 > > > > rand-csg 107 > > rand-rcc 007 > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From clemc at ccc.com Thu Feb 6 07:32:00 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 07:32:00 -0800 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> Message-ID: Which gave way to ?themes? - Sam Leffler set the UCB CRG theme to be famous painters. I set the CAD to be drinks (not sure what that says about the two of us). On Wed, Feb 5, 2020 at 10:54 PM Guy Almes via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Two other phenomena of the years before the DNS came into use was > that some sites would (in a sense) reserve a series of names so that, as > host computers were acquired, these hosts would have related names. > So the first phenomenon was the set of imaginative naming > conventions, famously starting with the use of plants from the Sunset > Garden book at PARC, were interesting in themselves. Names of planets > and names of characters from Leave it to Beaver were among the less > famous examples. Many members of this list can probably remember local > examples. When the net was young, a given site might be known for such > a name set, then if a new host that fit that name series came up, > people would know/suspect that the host was from the site known for that > set of names. > The second phenomenon was the reserving of names for hosts that did > not yet exist. This reserving was necessary to preserve the integrity > of the logic of a series of names. But I mention it because, when I > looked at a hosts.txt file in 1984, it seemed that the size of the file > was significantly influenced by this 'reserving'. > > I mention this, in part, let anyone assume that the number of entries > in a given hosts.txt file was an accurate estimate of the number of > actually existing hosts. > > -- Guy > > On 2/5/20 16:52, Joseph Touch via Internet-history wrote: > > FWIW - the host file was only for off-site systems; it was (AFAICT > typically) augmented with the local list of hosts. At some places, ihis was > fairly large as well. > > > > Joe > > > >> On Feb 5, 2020, at 2:15 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >> A little Google work got me: > >> > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D22&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=Wy7u4JRpgkO3nTQT36WqlweJpOzk8zVWmK5KXNB0j2o&e= > >> June 1985, 1528 hostnames. > >> > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D25&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=yj1oLTK106ZsuGeDLdGAd2twzBe2FTPf0o5m3SDToag&e= > >> December 1986, 4480 hostnames. > >> > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D27&d=DwIreGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=ARi6x1MM5KkZSD3EF-ca89vFLytQnDZePbJ4MmsoQGo&e= > >> May 1987, 5343 hostnames. > >> > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__www.saildart.org_allow_HOSTS.TXT-5BHST-2CNET-5D29&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=c6jsTZJDTm9mwDjob6SAzXVFsfSz98H0BnaIVASnvpI&e= > >> November 1988, 7083 hostnames. > >> > >> Compare these to the RFC1296 size estimates of the Internet: > >> > >> 1985: 1961 nodes > >> 1986: 5089 > >> 1987: 28174 > >> 1988: 56000 > >> > >> In other words, the NIC table was overwhelmed by growth by 1986 and its > size had ceased to matter by then. From those numbers, it looks as if DNS > superseded hosts.txt in practice around mid-1986. Read the introductory > text of RFC1296 for more. > >> > >> Regards > >> Brian Carpenter > >> > >> On 06-Feb-20 09:53, Michael Kj?rling via Internet-history wrote: > >>> On 5 Feb 2020 20:33 +0000, from internet-history at elists.isoc.org > (Jacques Latour via Internet-history): > >>>> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > >>> > >>> I'm not sure, but 200K entries sounds large. > >>> > >>> RFCs 1034 and 1035 are dated November 1987. Though work began earlier, > >>> that's probably a decent approximation for when "DNS came into > >>> action". > >>> > >>> RFC 1296 (January 1992) provides some data points on Internet growth > >>> for the period 1981-1991. That one gives the number of hosts with an > >>> IP address on the Internet in December 1987 as 28,174. > >>> > >>> The next data point in that RFC is about half a year later, in July > >>> 1988, at 33,000; followed by October 1988, 56,000. > >>> > >>> Even taking into account that migrating to DNS probably wasn't > >>> instant, my guess for the size of the hosts file in late 1987 would be > >>> a lot closer to 20K entries than 200K. > >>> > >>> Extrapolating from the data in RFC 1296, the Internet would have > >>> passed 200K IP hosts some time in mid-1990, with some 85% of those > >>> (net) added post-DNS. > >>> > >> > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__elists.isoc.org_mailman_listinfo_internet-2Dhistory&d=DwIGaQ&c=u6LDEWzohnDQ01ySGnxMzg&r=TYwsdLfWZb_3Papdtpdxyg&m=wh6sM7RtA720exZZ3SbWmGV3FMjepxc-DK8l_2hQYO8&s=G-sPcMv8k9OInslwvFdMLjUpwaws_qR-7eBPsssyDJA&e= > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Sent from a handheld expect more typos than usual From lars at nocrew.org Thu Feb 6 07:52:03 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 15:52:03 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> (John Day's message of "Thu, 6 Feb 2020 10:21:45 -0500") References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7wwo8zn270.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> John Day wrote: > I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same > time. I am guessing this was more reserving names. > > il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not > put on the Net while it was at Illinois. It's not il but ll, which I believe is Linclon Labs. RFC 597 says ll-67 was an IBM 360/67. From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Feb 6 07:57:49 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 10:57:49 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Politics. It probably had to do with IlliacIV not coming to Illinois. (That is a very long story.) Ken Bowles at UCSD develop some interesting software on it. We sent one of our best system guys with it. Our group knew both machines inside out. He had added IPC to the 5500 and we had what must have been pre-beta versions of the MCP. Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 and we developed two OSs on it. Compiling at UCSD and downloading to the 11 at Illinois. NASA got their own 6700 but got rid of it for a Tenex. It was a very low serial # machine (like first 5). That machine had been heat stressed. The machine was in the basement of the (original) Coordinated Science Lab at Illinois.* The idiot in charge of the installation thought it was too much trouble to run A/C duct work to the raised floor and had an A/C vent pouring cold air out from the ceiling . . . directly over the CPU cabinet! Needless to say it didn?t work well. There was rain in the machine room. The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. Even Organick said, ?it appears they got everything right.? Seeing how elegant designs could be was a life changing experience. Organick?s book describes what they did, but I would like to know how they did it. How a group in 1964 (when the 5500 was done) could do something so radically different than anything else being done and get so much right. John *The new CSL is where my house was! ;-) > On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:26, Steve Crocker wrote: > > What caused the B6700 to be moved to UCSD? > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: > I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. I am guessing this was more reserving names. > > il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not put on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the machine was moved to UCSD. > There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 and a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. > For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own IMP. > > I will have to do some checking. > > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff > wrote: > > > > Craig Partridge wrote: > >> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had > >> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. > > > > Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. > > > > Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. > > > > cmu-10alt 116 > > cmu-cc 016 > > > > ll-67 012 > > ll-tsp 212 > > ll-tx2 112 > > > > parc-maxc 040 > > parc-vts 140 > > > > rand-csg 107 > > rand-rcc 007 > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From casner at acm.org Thu Feb 6 08:18:06 2020 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 08:18:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> Message-ID: In 1973 ISI had only one IMP, number 22. There was only one PDP-10 at the time, the KA-10, but by the fall there were at least two hosts, with the second being a PDP-11. I know that because that's when I joined ISI, and the first project I worked on was helping to debug the ISI-developed, ANTS-variant IMP interface for the PDP-11. -- Steve On Thu, 6 Feb 2020, Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: > I pulled up my ARPANET map collection. The map does not show how many > connections were at each IMP, but you can make some informed guesses. > > In September 1983 (pre-MILNET split), there are multiple sites with > multiple IMPs. I'm guessing that we typically used up all the IMP ports > before giving someone another IMP. So... > > ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had two. > Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. > > Thanks, > > Craig > > PS: The map reading led to a trivia question -- which locations were the > last ones to use IMPs with the old Honeywell hardware.... (NYC, NSA, Texas, > and TYM [I don't recall who TYM was]). This per the April 1983 map. > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:03 AM John Day via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > Then I was wrong. 64 was just IMP numbers. Ports were separate. > > > > How many IMPs have multiple hosts? Stanford, MIT, BBN, UCLA, I know. Who > > else? > > > > John > > > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 08:40, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > > > > > John Day wrote: > > >> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > >>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > > >> Why was it so large? > > >> > > >> There certainly weren't 134 hosts on the 'Net in 1973. Wasn't the > > >> maximum number then still 64? > > > > > > Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in > > > alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. > > > > > > There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. > > > > -- From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Feb 6 08:34:03 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 11:34:03 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: John, Thanks! I was curious because the B6700 at UCSD came to my attention for two different reasons. I was in the ARPA/IPT office when the machine was connected to the Arpanet. I hadn't been aware of the history of the machine, but I saw some paperwork related to paying for the connection. Apparently some well intentioned contracting officer got involved and wanted to include details on how many packets would be transmitted and, more importantly, what the acceptance process would be for the packets. And, of course, for packets that weren't accepted, how they should be returned so they didn't have to pay for them ;) There was also a separate conversation about porting BBN's Interlisp to the B6700. Interlisp was, in my opinion, the best of the various versions of Lisp at the time. I don't know if the port was ever completed or used, but I think we put a little bit of money into trying to make happen. Re why the B6700 was such an elegant machine, I'm not a Burrough's expert, but I do know Burrough's used a stack architecture and a higher order language, Balgol, for the operating system dating back to the early 1960s on the B205. Steve On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:57 AM John Day wrote: > Politics. > > It probably had to do with IlliacIV not coming to Illinois. (That is a > very long story.) Ken Bowles at UCSD develop some interesting software on > it. We sent one of our best system guys with it. Our group knew both > machines inside out. He had added IPC to the 5500 and we had what must have > been pre-beta versions of the MCP. Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level > language ran on 6700 and we developed two OSs on it. Compiling at UCSD and > downloading to the 11 at Illinois. NASA got their own 6700 but got rid of > it for a Tenex. > > It was a very low serial # machine (like first 5). That machine had been > heat stressed. The machine was in the basement of the (original) > Coordinated Science Lab at Illinois.* The idiot in charge of the > installation thought it was too much trouble to run A/C duct work to the > raised floor and had an A/C vent pouring cold air out from the ceiling . . > . directly over the CPU cabinet! Needless to say it didn?t work well. > There was rain in the machine room. > > The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever > encountered. Even Organick said, ?it appears they got everything right.? > Seeing how elegant designs could be was a life changing experience. > Organick?s book describes what they did, but I would like to know how they > did it. How a group in 1964 (when the 5500 was done) could do something so > radically different than anything else being done and get so much right. > > John > > *The new CSL is where my house was! ;-) > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:26, Steve Crocker wrote: > > What caused the B6700 to be moved to UCSD? > > On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM John Day via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. >> I am guessing this was more reserving names. >> >> il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not >> put on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the >> machine was moved to UCSD. >> There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 >> and a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. >> For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own >> IMP. >> >> I will have to do some checking. >> >> John >> >> > On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >> > >> > Craig Partridge wrote: >> >> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had >> >> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. >> > >> > Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. >> > >> > Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. >> > >> > cmu-10alt 116 >> > cmu-cc 016 >> > >> > ll-67 012 >> > ll-tsp 212 >> > ll-tx2 112 >> > >> > parc-maxc 040 >> > parc-vts 140 >> > >> > rand-csg 107 >> > rand-rcc 007 >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > From lars at nocrew.org Thu Feb 6 08:40:35 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 06 Feb 2020 16:40:35 +0000 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <74ed1d9d-bcfd-b54d-52a7-8a05fcc4f0ee@channelisles.net> (Nigel Roberts via Internet-history's message of "Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:55:19 +0000") References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <74ed1d9d-bcfd-b54d-52a7-8a05fcc4f0ee@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <7wmu9vmzy4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Nigel Roberts wrote: > In 1978 MIT-AI was @O to to 134 and MIT-DM was 70. Those are decimal numbers. Converted to octal, they make sense as host/imp numbers. MIT-DMS is 106 and MIT-AI is 206, so they are host 1 and 2 on IMP 6. MIT-MULTICS was host 0, and MIT-ML was host 3. From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Feb 6 09:58:09 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 09:58:09 -0800 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7wmu9vmzy4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <74ed1d9d-bcfd-b54d-52a7-8a05fcc4f0ee@channelisles.net> <7wmu9vmzy4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <010427e3-233e-0ad7-9783-2b4c350ef427@3kitty.org> IIRC, a major change in the ARPANET's limit on number of hosts was the conversion from "32-bit leaders" to "96-bit leaders".?? Each IMP could still have up to 4 hosts, but the large leaders meant there could be more IMPs and therefore more hosts on the ARPANET.? IIRC, that occurred sometime in the mid-70s. For the historians, I suspect the best authoritative source of the timeline of changes in the ARPANET would be the various BBN QTRs, many of which are online at DTIC. TCP, and Port Expanders which allowed more than 4 hosts to connect to an IMP, came much later - late 70s/early 80s. /Jack Haverty On 2/6/20 8:40 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > Nigel Roberts wrote: >> In 1978 MIT-AI was @O to to 134 and MIT-DM was 70. > Those are decimal numbers. Converted to octal, they make sense as > host/imp numbers. MIT-DMS is 106 and MIT-AI is 206, so they are host 1 > and 2 on IMP 6. MIT-MULTICS was host 0, and MIT-ML was host 3. From vint at google.com Thu Feb 6 10:29:27 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:29:27 -0500 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <010427e3-233e-0ad7-9783-2b4c350ef427@3kitty.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <74ed1d9d-bcfd-b54d-52a7-8a05fcc4f0ee@channelisles.net> <7wmu9vmzy4.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <010427e3-233e-0ad7-9783-2b4c350ef427@3kitty.org> Message-ID: "TCP, and Port Expanders which allowed more than 4 hosts to connect to an IMP, came much later - late 70s/early 80s." correct - likely 1976-7-8 arising from tests with packet radio/arpanet v On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 12:58 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > IIRC, a major change in the ARPANET's limit on number of hosts was the > conversion from "32-bit leaders" to "96-bit leaders". Each IMP could > still have up to 4 hosts, but the large leaders meant there could be > more IMPs and therefore more hosts on the ARPANET. IIRC, that occurred > sometime in the mid-70s. > > For the historians, I suspect the best authoritative source of the > timeline of changes in the ARPANET would be the various BBN QTRs, many > of which are online at DTIC. > > TCP, and Port Expanders which allowed more than 4 hosts to connect to an > IMP, came much later - late 70s/early 80s. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 2/6/20 8:40 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > > Nigel Roberts wrote: > >> In 1978 MIT-AI was @O to to 134 and MIT-DM was 70. > > Those are decimal numbers. Converted to octal, they make sense as > > host/imp numbers. MIT-DMS is 106 and MIT-AI is 206, so they are host 1 > > and 2 on IMP 6. MIT-MULTICS was host 0, and MIT-ML was host 3. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- New postal address: Google 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor Reston, VA 20190 From dan at lynch.com Thu Feb 6 10:44:24 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 10:44:24 -0800 Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> References: <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5B6AFD3D-7320-4333-835D-6EC7E61DC814@lynch.com> SRI had all 4 ports in use by 73. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Feb 6, 2020, at 6:03 AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > > ?Then I was wrong. 64 was just IMP numbers. Ports were separate. > > How many IMPs have multiple hosts? Stanford, MIT, BBN, UCLA, I know. Who else? > > John > >>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 08:40, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>> >>> John Day wrote: >>> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. >>> Why was it so large? >>> >>> There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the >>> maximum number then still 64? >> >> Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in >> alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. >> >> There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 11:31:25 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 08:31:25 +1300 Subject: [ih] PDP-11 high level language [Re: how big was the host file] In-Reply-To: <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: John, We can take this off-list if you think it's too off-topic, but: > Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 What was that? Which language and which compiler? I ask because: B.E. Carpenter, A PL-11 Package on the Burroughs B6700, Massey University Computer Unit, Report No. 15, December 1974. PL-11 was Bob Russell's language for the PDP-11, developed at CERN in 1971, which I ported to to the 6700. As you may know, all 5 NZ universities bought 6700s and it was one of the reasons I went to Massey. After CERN, Bob Russell went to UNH. > The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. Absolutely. A lovely machine. Regards Brian Carpenter On 07-Feb-20 04:57, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > Politics. > > It probably had to do with IlliacIV not coming to Illinois. (That is a very long story.) Ken Bowles at UCSD develop some interesting software on it. We sent one of our best system guys with it. Our group knew both machines inside out. He had added IPC to the 5500 and we had what must have been pre-beta versions of the MCP. Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 and we developed two OSs on it. Compiling at UCSD and downloading to the 11 at Illinois. NASA got their own 6700 but got rid of it for a Tenex. > > It was a very low serial # machine (like first 5). That machine had been heat stressed. The machine was in the basement of the (original) Coordinated Science Lab at Illinois.* The idiot in charge of the installation thought it was too much trouble to run A/C duct work to the raised floor and had an A/C vent pouring cold air out from the ceiling . . . directly over the CPU cabinet! Needless to say it didn?t work well. There was rain in the machine room. > > The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. Even Organick said, ?it appears they got everything right.? Seeing how elegant designs could be was a life changing experience. Organick?s book describes what they did, but I would like to know how they did it. How a group in 1964 (when the 5500 was done) could do something so radically different than anything else being done and get so much right. > > John > > *The new CSL is where my house was! ;-) > >> On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:26, Steve Crocker wrote: >> >> What caused the B6700 to be moved to UCSD? >> >> On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: >> I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. I am guessing this was more reserving names. >> >> il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not put on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the machine was moved to UCSD. >> There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 and a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. >> For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own IMP. >> >> I will have to do some checking. >> >> John >> >>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff > wrote: >>> >>> Craig Partridge wrote: >>>> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had >>>> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. >>> >>> Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. >>> >>> Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. >>> >>> cmu-10alt 116 >>> cmu-cc 016 >>> >>> ll-67 012 >>> ll-tsp 212 >>> ll-tx2 112 >>> >>> parc-maxc 040 >>> parc-vts 140 >>> >>> rand-csg 107 >>> rand-rcc 007 >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From Jacques.Latour at cira.ca Thu Feb 6 11:36:55 2020 From: Jacques.Latour at cira.ca (Jacques Latour) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 19:36:55 +0000 Subject: [ih] [EXT] Re: how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <5B6AFD3D-7320-4333-835D-6EC7E61DC814@lynch.com> References: <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <5B6AFD3D-7320-4333-835D-6EC7E61DC814@lynch.com> Message-ID: Thanks you all, this is very fascinating history! I think the number I'm looking for is ~7000, and probably a few hundred more in the guerilla/underground host table information ;-) >-----Original Message----- >From: Internet-history On Behalf Of Dan Lynch via Internet-history >Sent: February 6, 2020 1:44 PM >To: John Day >Cc: Jacques Latour via Internet-history >Subject: [EXT] Re: [ih] how big was the host file > >SRI had all 4 ports in use by 73. > >Dan > >Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Feb 6, 2020, at 6:03 AM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ?Then I was wrong. 64 was just IMP numbers. Ports were separate. >> >> How many IMPs have multiple hosts? Stanford, MIT, BBN, UCLA, I know. Who else? >> >> John >> >>>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 08:40, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>>> >>>> John Day wrote: >>>> Lars Brinkhoff wrote: >>>>> An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. >>>> Why was it so large? >>>> >>>> There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973. Wasn?t the >>>> maximum number then still 64? >>> >>> Sorry, I see now the file has two lists. The first list is in >>> alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. >>> >>> There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >-- >Internet-history mailing list >Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From reed at reedmedia.net Thu Feb 6 11:53:35 2020 From: reed at reedmedia.net (reed at reedmedia.net) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:53:35 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Feb 2020, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. > > There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. Can you share this 1973 MIT hosts file? I'd like to compare its entries with the following RFCs. Oct 1971 RFC 252 lists 25 hosts by number (with no unique names there). Dec 1971 RFC 289 lists 45 "formal" names (one without a network address) and 16 nicknames. Aug 1972 RFC 384 lists 70 site "idents" (with a few with multiple identifiers). Dec 1973 RFC 597 lists 81 hosts and 9 upcoming hosts with their hostnames. By the way, where are the two 1973 maps (geographic and logical) for RFC 597 / NIC 20826? Anyone have those 1973 images scanned? From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Feb 6 12:34:28 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 20:34:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] how big was the host file In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> Message-ID: <702533535.527831.1581021268280@mail.yahoo.com> Very close,? the box was called a port expander. A gateway to another network could be behind the port expander. You can find the SRI technical report for the port expander on the net.? I must admit when I was testing I don't think I bothered to update the NIC all the time.? I knew the? IP addressable devices on packet radio and I could just add entries to my local host file if I felt the need.? barbara? On Thursday, February 6, 2020, 04:16:02 AM PST, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: there was provision for up to 4 hosts per IMP and we even had a "port extender" for IP addresses as TCP/IP rolled out. So I don't think 64 was the limit. v On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 7:10 AM John Day via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Why was it so large? > > There certainly weren?t 134 hosts on the ?Net in 1973.? Wasn?t the maximum > number then still 64? > > John > > > On Feb 6, 2020, at 03:28, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > Jacques Latour wrote: > >> How big was the host file before the DNS came in action? 200K entries? > > > > I'd like to go in the other direction.? What are the smallest recorded > > hosts files? > > > > An MIT hosts file from 1973 was 134 lines. > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Feb 6 12:39:14 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 15:39:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] how big was the host file Message-ID: <20200206203914.D96C218C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: reed > By the way, where are the two 1973 maps (geographic and logical) for RFC > 597 / NIC 20826? Anyone have those 1973 images scanned? I don't know about _the_ 1973 maps, but there are Sept '73 maps on my ARPANET logical/geographic map pages (here: http:www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html, about half-way down). Noel From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Feb 6 13:37:48 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 16:37:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] PDP-11 high level language [Re: how big was the host file] In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: It was called PDP-11 Espol, or PEESPOL designed by David Grothe of our group. Grothe wrote the complier, Gary Grossman designed and wrote much of the OS. We filled in. This was about 1970. As I said, we were building Illiac IV and had a B5500 for software development. The 6700 was in the process of being built. IlliacIV was to be a peripheral processor to the 6700. As the name implies, PEESPOL was ESPOL for the PDP-11. Grothe latter added a very sophisticated macro processor that essentially made it an extensible language. The 2nd OS we did was a process per function, message passing OS. The device drivers were state machines and ?instructions? were passed among the drivers. PEESPOL allowed us to define instructions, declare them, treat them as a data type, access their fields, etc. We had macros for procedure variables, for queues, etc. We basically could expand the language in terms of the objects in the system we were building and then program in those terms. We were so much into structure that sometimes statically scoped languages like Algol force you to make things more global than you want. We introduced an ?UN? operator, so we could un-declare things, so we weren?t tempted to use things we weren?t suppose to be able to see. We did a 3rd OS called the Hub, that was so simple, the whole thing fit 4K of code, 6 with buffers and later version was proven secure. Then in the Summer of 75, we put the first Unix system on the Net. Then stripped it down to fit on an LSI-11 with a plasma screen and touch to create an intelligent terminal for a land-use management system for the 6 counties around Chicago. Everything could be done by touch. We could maps down to the square mile, graphs, etc. The system ran on various systems on the ARPANET. John > On Feb 6, 2020, at 14:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > John, > > We can take this off-list if you think it's too off-topic, but: > >> Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 > > What was that? Which language and which compiler? > > I ask because: > > B.E. Carpenter, A PL-11 Package on the Burroughs B6700, Massey University Computer Unit, Report No. 15, December 1974. > > PL-11 was Bob Russell's language for the PDP-11, developed at CERN in 1971, which I ported to to the 6700. As you may know, all 5 NZ universities bought 6700s and it was one of the reasons I went to Massey. After CERN, Bob Russell went to UNH. > >> The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. > > Absolutely. A lovely machine. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 07-Feb-20 04:57, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >> Politics. >> >> It probably had to do with IlliacIV not coming to Illinois. (That is a very long story.) Ken Bowles at UCSD develop some interesting software on it. We sent one of our best system guys with it. Our group knew both machines inside out. He had added IPC to the 5500 and we had what must have been pre-beta versions of the MCP. Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 and we developed two OSs on it. Compiling at UCSD and downloading to the 11 at Illinois. NASA got their own 6700 but got rid of it for a Tenex. >> >> It was a very low serial # machine (like first 5). That machine had been heat stressed. The machine was in the basement of the (original) Coordinated Science Lab at Illinois.* The idiot in charge of the installation thought it was too much trouble to run A/C duct work to the raised floor and had an A/C vent pouring cold air out from the ceiling . . . directly over the CPU cabinet! Needless to say it didn?t work well. There was rain in the machine room. >> >> The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. Even Organick said, ?it appears they got everything right.? Seeing how elegant designs could be was a life changing experience. Organick?s book describes what they did, but I would like to know how they did it. How a group in 1964 (when the 5500 was done) could do something so radically different than anything else being done and get so much right. >> >> John >> >> *The new CSL is where my house was! ;-) >> >>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:26, Steve Crocker wrote: >>> >>> What caused the B6700 to be moved to UCSD? >>> >>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: >>> I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. I am guessing this was more reserving names. >>> >>> il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not put on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the machine was moved to UCSD. >>> There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 and a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. >>> For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own IMP. >>> >>> I will have to do some checking. >>> >>> John >>> >>>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff > wrote: >>>> >>>> Craig Partridge wrote: >>>>> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had >>>>> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. >>>> >>>> Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. >>>> >>>> Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. >>>> >>>> cmu-10alt 116 >>>> cmu-cc 016 >>>> >>>> ll-67 012 >>>> ll-tsp 212 >>>> ll-tx2 112 >>>> >>>> parc-maxc 040 >>>> parc-vts 140 >>>> >>>> rand-csg 107 >>>> rand-rcc 007 >>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > From jericho at attrition.org Thu Feb 6 14:24:15 2020 From: jericho at attrition.org (jericho) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 16:24:15 -0600 (CST) Subject: [ih] PDP-11 high level language [Re: how big was the host file] In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: First, this thread is fascinating, thank you to everyone providing this great history. On Thu, 6 Feb 2020, John Day via Internet-history wrote: : We did a 3rd OS called the Hub, that was so simple, the whole thing fit : 4K of code, 6 with buffers and later version was proven secure. John, Could you elaborate on what tests were performed at the time to call it secure? I am curious to compare what type of standards and/or testing was performed, as compared to modern designations of 'secure' (e.g. via audit, compliance, pentesting, etc.). I am a 'vulnerability historian' of sorts, so this is a rare time something is squarely in my niche. =) Thank you! Brian From feinler at earthlink.net Thu Feb 6 14:57:44 2020 From: feinler at earthlink.net (Elizabeth Feinler) Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 14:57:44 -0800 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 5, Issue 7 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Check with Marc Weber at the Co muter History Museum. I think hey have a full set of maps or at least a lot of them. Cheers, Jake > On Feb 6, 2020, at 12:00 PM, internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org wrote: > > Send Internet-history mailing list submissions to > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > internet-history-request at elists.isoc.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > internet-history-owner at elists.isoc.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Internet-history digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: how big was the host file (reed at reedmedia.net) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Thu, 6 Feb 2020 13:53:35 -0600 (CST) > From: reed at reedmedia.net > To: internet-history at elists.isoc.org > Subject: Re: [ih] how big was the host file > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On Thu, 6 Feb 2020, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > >> alphabetical order, and the second is in numerical-ish order. >> >> There are 66 unique host numbers, of which 14 are TIPs. > > Can you share this 1973 MIT hosts file? I'd like to compare its entries > with the following RFCs. > > Oct 1971 RFC 252 lists 25 hosts by number (with no unique names there). > > Dec 1971 RFC 289 lists 45 "formal" names (one without a network address) > and 16 nicknames. > > Aug 1972 RFC 384 lists 70 site "idents" (with a few with multiple > identifiers). > > Dec 1973 RFC 597 lists 81 hosts and 9 upcoming hosts with their > hostnames. > > By the way, where are the two 1973 maps (geographic and logical) for RFC > 597 / NIC 20826? Anyone have those 1973 images scanned? > > > ------------------------------ > > Subject: Digest Footer > > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > ------------------------------ > > End of Internet-history Digest, Vol 5, Issue 7 > ********************************************** From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Feb 6 16:48:04 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 13:48:04 +1300 Subject: [ih] PDP-11 high level language [Re: how big was the host file] In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 07-Feb-20 10:37, John Day wrote: > It was called PDP-11 Espol, or PEESPOL designed by David Grothe of our group. Grothe wrote the complier, Gary Grossman designed and wrote much of the OS. We filled in. This was about 1970. As I said, we were building Illiac IV and had a B5500 for software development. The 6700 was in the process of being built. IlliacIV was to be a peripheral processor to the 6700. As the name implies, PEESPOL was ESPOL for the PDP-11. Interesting! I had a reading knowledge of ESPOL while I was a 6700 user, but I mainly coded in Algol, which was our teaching language in those pre-Pascal days. PL-11 was inspired by PL-360. Bob Russell was ex-Stanford and knew how to write a recursive descent compiler, but for practical reasons he implemented it in Fortran on a CII 10070, and I later ported it to Burroughs Fortran. Bob wrote a simple PDP-11 o/s in PL-11 at CERN, and I wrote another one. I also wrote a PDP-11 link-editor in Algol. In those days nobody told you such things were impossible. Brian > > Grothe latter added a very sophisticated macro processor that essentially made it an extensible language. The 2nd OS we did was a process per function, message passing OS. The device drivers were state machines and ?instructions? were passed among the drivers. PEESPOL allowed us to define instructions, declare them, treat them as a data type, access their fields, etc. We had macros for procedure variables, for queues, etc. We basically could expand the language in terms of the objects in the system we were building and then program in those terms. We were so much into structure that sometimes statically scoped languages like Algol force you to make things more global than you want. We introduced an ?UN? operator, so we could un-declare things, so we weren?t tempted to use things we weren?t suppose to be able to see. > > We did a 3rd OS called the Hub, that was so simple, the whole thing fit 4K of code, 6 with buffers and later version was proven secure. > > Then in the Summer of 75, we put the first Unix system on the Net. Then stripped it down to fit on an LSI-11 with a plasma screen and touch to create an intelligent terminal for a land-use management system for the 6 counties around Chicago. Everything could be done by touch. We could maps down to the square mile, graphs, etc. The system ran on various systems on the ARPANET. > > John > >> On Feb 6, 2020, at 14:31, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> John, >> >> We can take this off-list if you think it's too off-topic, but: >> >>> Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 >> >> What was that? Which language and which compiler? >> >> I ask because: >> >> B.E. Carpenter, A PL-11 Package on the Burroughs B6700, Massey University Computer Unit, Report No. 15, December 1974. >> >> PL-11 was Bob Russell's language for the PDP-11, developed at CERN in 1971, which I ported to to the 6700. As you may know, all 5 NZ universities bought 6700s and it was one of the reasons I went to Massey. After CERN, Bob Russell went to UNH. >> >>> The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. >> >> Absolutely. A lovely machine. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 07-Feb-20 04:57, John Day via Internet-history wrote: >>> Politics. >>> >>> It probably had to do with IlliacIV not coming to Illinois. (That is a very long story.) Ken Bowles at UCSD develop some interesting software on it. We sent one of our best system guys with it. Our group knew both machines inside out. He had added IPC to the 5500 and we had what must have been pre-beta versions of the MCP. Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 and we developed two OSs on it. Compiling at UCSD and downloading to the 11 at Illinois. NASA got their own 6700 but got rid of it for a Tenex. >>> >>> It was a very low serial # machine (like first 5). That machine had been heat stressed. The machine was in the basement of the (original) Coordinated Science Lab at Illinois.* The idiot in charge of the installation thought it was too much trouble to run A/C duct work to the raised floor and had an A/C vent pouring cold air out from the ceiling . . . directly over the CPU cabinet! Needless to say it didn?t work well. There was rain in the machine room. >>> >>> The 5500/6700 was probably the finest system design I have ever encountered. Even Organick said, ?it appears they got everything right.? Seeing how elegant designs could be was a life changing experience. Organick?s book describes what they did, but I would like to know how they did it. How a group in 1964 (when the 5500 was done) could do something so radically different than anything else being done and get so much right. >>> >>> John >>> >>> *The new CSL is where my house was! ;-) >>> >>>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 10:26, Steve Crocker wrote: >>>> >>>> What caused the B6700 to be moved to UCSD? >>>> >>>> On Thu, Feb 6, 2020 at 10:22 AM John Day via Internet-history > wrote: >>>> I am pretty sure Illinois never had two hosts connected at the same time. I am guessing this was more reserving names. >>>> >>>> il-67 was probably a placeholder for the Burroughs 6700 but it was not put on the Net while it was at Illinois. Later it was connected when the machine was moved to UCSD. >>>> There was a PDP-11 connected. Later we might have had both a PDP-11/20 and a PDP-11/45 connected but I doubt it. >>>> For a while, there was a VDH to Purdue, but they eventually got their own IMP. >>>> >>>> I will have to do some checking. >>>> >>>> John >>>> >>>>> On Feb 6, 2020, at 09:48, Lars Brinkhoff > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Craig Partridge wrote: >>>>>> ISI had three IMPs. SRI had three IMPs. SAC had two IMPs. ARPA had >>>>>> two. Those are additions to your list of Stanford, MIT, UCLA and BBN. >>>>> >>>>> Not quite. They had multiple hosts on one IMP. >>>>> >>>>> Here are some more. Excluding those with just an additional TIP. >>>>> >>>>> cmu-10alt 116 >>>>> cmu-cc 016 >>>>> >>>>> ll-67 012 >>>>> ll-tsp 212 >>>>> ll-tx2 112 >>>>> >>>>> parc-maxc 040 >>>>> parc-vts 140 >>>>> >>>>> rand-csg 107 >>>>> rand-rcc 007 >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >> > > From cabo at tzi.org Fri Feb 7 00:03:37 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 09:03:37 +0100 Subject: [ih] PDP-11 high level language [Re: how big was the host file] In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2020-02-07, at 01:48, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > CII 10070 Interesting. In the seventies, I wrote some of my code in LP70, the native PL-360 clone for the CII 10070/IRIS-80 line. I?d love to learn more about the relevant history; I haven?t found a lot of literature about LP70 (and I don?t think I have the original manuals any more); see [1] for some mention, but no further references. Gr??e, Carsten [1]: https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/3-540-08065-1_3 From karl at cavebear.com Fri Feb 7 17:03:29 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Fri, 7 Feb 2020 17:03:29 -0800 Subject: [ih] PDP-11 high level language [Re: how big was the host file] In-Reply-To: References: <045b3e8b49b54be38c321f80c1c11c85@cira.ca> <7wo8ucnmqa.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <6114412A-CF50-4994-99FB-6C5D9FF48C03@comcast.net> <7wftfnomum.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <1F21DAA8-D1A0-4361-A39D-5C5F748AF10A@comcast.net> <7w7e0zojpm.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <4A724256-F45A-481E-B7DA-2ACAC9A4060A@comcast.net> <43CFDF4C-0FCF-48BC-9A52-EE14D2CDDBF6@comcast.net> Message-ID: <2d28628d-4afc-a3d6-821f-19fa7e493b8f@cavebear.com> On 2/6/20 11:31 AM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> Our compiler for the PDP-11 high level language ran on 6700 > > What was that? Which language and which compiler? At SDC in the mid-to-later 1970's we created a Pascal-to-C compiler that we used to build our "verified secure" operating system for several sizes of PDP-11. I put quotes around "verified secure" because our security criteria was fairly simple - the good ol' *-property (star-property). And our proof was done by highly structured code (as demanded by our verification folks, Val Schorre, John Scheid (sp), and Marv Schaeffer) with clearly articulated assertions about side effects. We trusted the C compiler and the underlying hardware to do the right things. (Our OS design was one that used software capabilities; we were building machines with hardware capabilities for the next generation.) Unfortunately the documents about what we did are still not easily found on the net. I'm kicking myself for not retaining a copy of a paper I wrote about debugging a secure capability based operating system. --karl-- From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Sat Feb 29 12:02:25 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 15:02:25 -0500 Subject: [ih] evil umpire? Message-ID: <63afc14e-a5ea-af43-617b-24f672d30e77@meetinghouse.net> Hi Folks, So, somebody here must remember: Who was it who's USENET sig line referred to the "evil umpire," and what was the exact line?? (My Google Foo doesn't seem to be working today, or it happened too long ago to be indexed.) I want to quote it in a piece I'm writing. Cheers, Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Sat Feb 29 15:51:19 2020 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:51:19 -0500 Subject: [ih] evil umpire? In-Reply-To: <63afc14e-a5ea-af43-617b-24f672d30e77@meetinghouse.net> References: <63afc14e-a5ea-af43-617b-24f672d30e77@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: Tangential reply ... On Sat, Feb 29, 2020 at 3:02 PM Miles Fidelman via Internet-history wrote: > (My Google Foo doesn't seem to be working today, or > it happened too long ago to be indexed.) I don't think it's you. As you're probably painfully aware, the DejaNews archive that Google bought is mostly inaccessible now (since 2015), alas. AFAIK there is not equivalent mirror on-line. (One hopes Henry Spencer or UT kept a copy of the Usenet 1981-1991 that he sent Google in 2003.) So it's not /your/ Google-Fu that's lacking, it's Google's. (Which is a shame for history and research, but may have prevented quite a few careers from being cut short by youthful indiscretions resurfacing. I don't think /mine/ were CLM but ... there's something to be said for EU's "Right to be Forgotten", as well as plenty to be said against it. I wouldn't be surprised if the impossibility of compliance with that EU directive may be why DejaNews qua Google Groups no longer does the Usenet for which Google doesn't have a user-agreement for each account.) I gather the Smithsonian Inst. has some of Usenet as well as snapshots of important Dot.Com pages archived for posterity (we were informed our Dot.Com had been included! :-D) but AFAIK they're mostly offline. // Bill