From york at isoc.org Tue Dec 1 17:56:23 2020 From: york at isoc.org (Dan York) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 01:56:23 +0000 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? Message-ID: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet There is the statement: "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. Any suggestions or pointers? Thanks, Dan P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. -- Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] internetsociety.org | @internetsociety From dave.walden.family at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 18:15:01 2020 From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com (dave walden) Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2020 21:15:01 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is a good enough reference for the citation you want: ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can perhaps find a specific page number. On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > There is the statement: > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > Thanks, > Dan > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. > > -- > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > internetsociety.org | @internetsociety > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Dec 1 20:13:03 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 17:13:03 +1300 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: <6db50839-ec57-58f0-6d88-dca7585f24f0@gmail.com> Dan, According to Hafner & Lyon in "Where wizards stay up late", pages 255-256 in my edition: "By the end of 1989, the ARPANET was gone." They describe a progressive shutdown managed by Mark Pullen during 1989. That book was published in 1996, so it was recent history. RFC2235 says that in 1990 "ARPANET ceases to exist" with no month given. This reference also says 1990 with no month: Barry M. Leiner, Vinton G. Cerf, David D. Clark, Robert E. Kahn, Leonard Kleinrock, Daniel C. Lynch, Jon Postel, Larry G. Roberts, and Stephen Wolff. 2009. A brief history of the internet. SIGCOMM Comput. Commun. Rev. 39, 5 (October 2009), 22?31. DOI: 10.1145/1629607.1629613 The last time Net 10 was listed as "ARPANET" in the Assigned Numbers/Internet Numbers series of RFCs was RFC1166 in July 1990. (Maybe that's where the July 1990 date came from, if Hafner & Lyon are correct?) Jon reassigned Net 10 for other purposes by March 1994. It's hard to tell exactly when he removed the ARPANET reservation, since RFC1166 was the last of its line, unless somebody has historical dumps of the IANA address registry. Or if someone has Internet routing tables from 1989/90, when the did the route to Net 10 disappear? Regards Brian Carpenter On 02-Dec-20 14:56, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > There is the statement: > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > Thanks, > Dan > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. > > -- > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > internetsociety.org | @internetsociety > From louie at transsys.com Tue Dec 1 22:09:54 2020 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2020 01:09:54 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP checksums (Was: UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: <68A46A12-A24A-4DE9-A3CF-1B052562CB2D@strayalpha.com> References: <20201129211526.E6E1018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <68A46A12-A24A-4DE9-A3CF-1B052562CB2D@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: On 29 Nov 2020, at 19:44, Joseph Touch via Internet-history wrote: >> On Nov 29, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Noel Chiappa >> wrote: >> >>> From: Joseph Touch >> >>> Either 0 or -0 could come up as a valid 1's complement sum over the >>> words >> >> Perhaps I'm confused, but I don't see how you could get 0 (i.e. all 0 >> bits) as >> a 1's complement sum from anything except a 'packet' containing >> nothing but >> 0's, > > Yes, but... > >> i.e. no valid packet (and from that observation, _if correct_, the >> rest >> of my prior comment flows). > > No valid IP or UDP, but that?s not the case necessarily everywhere > the IP checksum is used. That?s what I was considering. > >> Here's my thinking about 'no 0 sum'; if I've >> somehow blown it, I would appreciate having my error pointed out! >> (Truly! :-) > > The one?s complement is a ring, but as you note, 0 is a special > case. > > Only 0 + 0 -> 0 > > All other additions and subtractions yeid -n..n or -0 only (including, > strictly, 0 - 0). > > The only way you get back to 0 is multiplication (n * 0 = 0). > > And the sum over the data + inverted checksum is always -0 (never 0). > > The trick is that we don?t insert the complement of the ones > complement sum. We insert that ONLY if the ones complement sum is not > -0; if it is, we insert -0. However, those instructions are never > given in RFC791, RFC1071; they appear only in RFC768: > If the computed checksum is zero, it is transmitted as all ones > (the > equivalent in one's complement arithmetic). An all zero > transmitted > checksum value means that the transmitter generated no checksum > (for > debugging or for higher level protocols that don't care). > > So - technically - the IP checksum CAN be 0 (when the ones complement > sum is computed as -0, which can easily happen). That?s what I was > thinking about. > But.. the UDP checksum field is the 1's complement of the sum of the bytes in the message (performed using 1's complement arithmetic.) I wrote my first TCP/IP stack on a 1's complement, word addressable UNIVAC 1108 - and it's CPU would never compute a -0 result (all 1's) in the normal course of doing add arithmetic operations. So if you do the normal sort of sum and it resulted in a zero result (encoded as the +0 value), the 1's complement of that zero value would be -0, encoded as all 1 bits in the result. Thus the checksum field would never has all zero bits as a normal checksum computation. Some years after doing my UDP implementation, I started to undertake a port of the 4BSD network implementation when later generations of these mainframes supported a C compiler. The BSD UDP implementation had a bug where they assumed 2's complement math, so https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/commit/87d648fe7e142ce2207e57bba0965e760b43b05f got submitted by me. The mainframe disappeared before I got much further in my port. Louis Mamakos From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 2 06:08:12 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 14:08:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? What it does say is "DARPA took the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." Alex On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via Internet-history wrote: I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is a good enough reference for the citation you want: ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can perhaps find a specific page number. On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > There is the statement: > >? ? "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles!? But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > Thanks, > Dan > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. > > -- > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > internetsociety.org | @internetsociety > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Wed Dec 2 06:20:39 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:20:39 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: + mark pullen Mark presided over the shutdown while at IPTO. v On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:18 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that > the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990. What it does say is "DARPA took > the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the > announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." > Alex > > On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via > Internet-history wrote: > > I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is > a good enough reference for the citation you want: > > ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia > of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can > perhaps find a specific page number. > > > On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably > online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the > ARPANET in 1990? > > > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia > pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of > these pages: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > > > There is the statement: > > > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching > around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being > decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the > article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a > ?reliable source?). > Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other > articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page< > https://icannwiki.org/ARPANET> that similarly states at the end that the > ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched > RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve > found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth > and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its > ending. > > > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > > > Thanks, > > Dan > > > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a > reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the > ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to > replace it with something more definitive. > > > > -- > > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards > Everywhere / Internet Society > > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 <(603)%20439-0024> > / @danyork > > > > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > > internetsociety.org | > @internetsociety > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From steve at shinkuro.com Wed Dec 2 06:20:48 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:20:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark Pullen might have some info re the last days of the Arpanet. I've cc'd him on this email. Steve On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:18 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that > the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990. What it does say is "DARPA took > the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the > announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." > Alex > > On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via > Internet-history wrote: > > I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is > a good enough reference for the citation you want: > > ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia > of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can > perhaps find a specific page number. > > > On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably > online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the > ARPANET in 1990? > > > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia > pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of > these pages: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > > > There is the statement: > > > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching > around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being > decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the > article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a > ?reliable source?). > Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other > articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page< > https://icannwiki.org/ARPANET> that similarly states at the end that the > ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched > RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve > found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth > and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its > ending. > > > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > > > Thanks, > > Dan > > > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a > reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the > ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to > replace it with something more definitive. > > > > -- > > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards > Everywhere / Internet Society > > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork< > https://twitter.com/danyork> > > > > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > > internetsociety.org | > @internetsociety > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From galmes at tamu.edu Wed Dec 2 06:43:09 2020 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:43:09 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't have a source, but plenty of memories about the era. Beginning in 1987, while at Rice University in Houston, I was organizing one of the regional networks related to the NSFnet project. One of the reasons why NSF asked us at Rice to lead the effort within Texas was that the more obvious statewide leadership at the University of Texas were not interested. This was because they had a nice connection to the ARPAnet. During this period, when email and a little FTP were the main applications, a medium-lightly loaded 56kb/s ARPAnet was pretty good. But by autumn 1988, when the NSFnet regional networks were growing rapidly, campus LANs were popping up, and the (fractional) T1-based NSFnet backbone was a great success, the university community quickly turned to the NSFnet as its primary Internet infrastructure. And, while the federal agency networks, especially at the Dept of Energy and at NASA, were also very successful, the folks at ARPA were in no mood to invest further in the ARPAnet as bread-and-butter infrastructure. Not only would that have required the ARPAnet to be upgraded to T1 circuits etc., but it would then have to be managed primarily as infrastructure rather than as a relatively nimble combination of infrastructure and research vehicle. And, given the growth in usage of the Internet, based in part on the much greater capacity of the T1-based NSFnet, a 56kb/s-based national network connecting high-end computer science research departments and labs was no longer of real interest. After all, while a lightly loaded 56kb/s network can support email and FTP quite well, a congested 56kb/s network is not really useful. So, once it was clear that the NSFnet would succeed, ARPA decided to shut down the ARPAnet. Given that the community could still vividly remember the ARPAnet being, until at least 1987, the premiere Internet service, this was quite shocking. The key figure at ARPA was Major Mark Pullen. I recall one wag referring to Pullen pullin' the plug on the ARPAnet. When he announced the shutdown and its timing, as I say, even many of us active in the NSFnet project were taken aback and fretted over the difficulties of transitioning to an Internet without the ARPAnet as a key component. But, by the time the shutdown approached, my memory was of it being a non-event. Others on the list surely experienced this from different perspectives. -- Guy On 12/2/20 9:08 AM, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: > Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? What it does say is "DARPA took the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." > Alex > > On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via Internet-history wrote: > > I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is > a good enough reference for the citation you want: > > ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia > of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can > perhaps find a specific page number. > > > On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: >> Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? >> >> As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: >> >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet*History__;Iw!!KwNVnqRv!S98KGr51KdB-BSN8syGIAN2TORFnuff2t4iel23qhuVgtSyes4KyaOu03zJOaw$ >> https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet__;!!KwNVnqRv!S98KGr51KdB-BSN8syGIAN2TORFnuff2t4iel23qhuVgtSyes4KyaOt4LAm_-g$ >> >> There is the statement: >> >> ? ? "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? >> >> This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles!? But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. >> >> I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. >> >> Any suggestions or pointers? >> >> Thanks, >> Dan >> >> P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. >> >> -- >> Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society >> york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork >> >> >> [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] >> internetsociety.org | @internetsociety >> From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Wed Dec 2 07:05:48 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 15:05:48 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <486731771.3605120.1606921548242@mail.yahoo.com> Here's a reference:? "Discoveries in Modern Science", James Trefil, Editor in Chief; Macmillan Reference USA, A part of Gale, Cengage Learning; 2014; Article titled "Internet" by Alexander A. McKenzie; pg 570.? The reference says "ARPANET had already been shut down in 1990." Backstory:? During the late 1980's the US Internet backbone had shifted from ARPANET to the NSFNET, and access to NSFNET was provided by regional networks and by ARPANET.? New England was the last area of the US (lower 48) to have a regional network, but at the end of the 80's NEARNET was created by Harvard, MIT, and Boston University to fill this gap.? As soon as NEARNET was operational, DARPA (Col. Mark Pullen) told the last few sites being supported by ARPANET to get their IP service from NEARNET, and as soon as that was done ARPANET was terminated. Cheers,Alex On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:21:00 AM EST, Steve Crocker wrote: Mark Pullen might have some info re the last days of the Arpanet.? I've cc'd him on this?email. Steve On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:18 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? What it does say is "DARPA took the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." Alex ? ? On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via Internet-history wrote:? ?I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is a good enough reference for the citation you want: ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can perhaps find a specific page number. On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > There is the statement: > >? ? "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles!? But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > Thanks, > Dan > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. > > -- > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > internetsociety.org | @internetsociety > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From steve at shinkuro.com Wed Dec 2 07:14:29 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 10:14:29 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <486731771.3605120.1606921548242@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> <1956573681.3568135.1606918092158@mail.yahoo.com> <486731771.3605120.1606921548242@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The DC area still had Arpanet nodes at the end. I moved to DC in 1989 and proposed to Pullen to put together a small regional network to transition these last nodes. Pullen was about to fund it but it was overtaken by events. Suranet, UUNET, which eventually became MCI, Worldcom and finally Verizon?s Internet service, and PSINET, which had started as Nysernet and then expanded to the DC area, obviated the need for a new regional net. I didn?t track the date of the last transition, but it would likely have been during calendar 1990. Steve On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 10:06 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Here's a reference: "Discoveries in Modern Science", James Trefil, > Editor in Chief; Macmillan Reference USA, A part of Gale, Cengage Learning; > 2014; Article titled "Internet" by Alexander A. McKenzie; pg 570. The > reference says "ARPANET had already been shut down in 1990." > Backstory: During the late 1980's the US Internet backbone had shifted > from ARPANET to the NSFNET, and access to NSFNET was provided by regional > networks and by ARPANET. New England was the last area of the US (lower > 48) to have a regional network, but at the end of the 80's NEARNET was > created by Harvard, MIT, and Boston University to fill this gap. As soon > as NEARNET was operational, DARPA (Col. Mark Pullen) told the last few > sites being supported by ARPANET to get their IP service from NEARNET, and > as soon as that was done ARPANET was terminated. > Cheers,Alex > > On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:21:00 AM EST, Steve Crocker < > steve at shinkuro.com> wrote: > > Mark Pullen might have some info re the last days of the Arpanet. I've > cc'd him on this email. > Steve > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:18 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that > the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990. What it does say is "DARPA took > the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the > announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." > Alex > > On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via > Internet-history wrote: > > I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is > a good enough reference for the citation you want: > > ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia > of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can > perhaps find a specific page number. > > > On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably > online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the > ARPANET in 1990? > > > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia > pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of > these pages: > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > > > There is the statement: > > > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching > around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being > decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the > article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a > ?reliable source?). > Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other > articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page< > https://icannwiki.org/ARPANET> that similarly states at the end that the > ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched > RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve > found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth > and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its > ending. > > > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > > > Thanks, > > Dan > > > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a > reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the > ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to > replace it with something more definitive. > > > > -- > > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards > Everywhere / Internet Society > > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork< > https://twitter.com/danyork> > > > > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > > internetsociety.org | > @internetsociety > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From craig at tereschau.net Wed Dec 2 08:00:09 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:00:09 -0700 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: ACM SIGCOMM CCR, October 1990, p. 81 has an introduction to a collection of ARPANET maps with comments from Vint Cerf. The intro starts with "The ARPANET was turned off this summer, after over 20 years in service." The introduction also has a timeline and its last entry is "July '90 - The ARPANET is retired." For reasons unclear, ACM has chosen not to digitize this part of CCR or its intro but you can see it in the table of contents ( https://dl-acm-org.ezproxy2.library.colostate.edu/action/showFmPdf?doi=10.1145%2F381906 ). Craig (who was CCR editor at the time and has a copy near his desk...) On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 6:56 PM Dan York via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) > that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in > 1990? > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia > pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of > these pages: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > There is the statement: > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching > around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being > decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the > article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a > ?reliable source?). > Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other > articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page< > https://icannwiki.org/ARPANET> that similarly states at the end that the > ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched > RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve > found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth > and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its > ending. > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > Thanks, > Dan > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a > reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the > ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to > replace it with something more definitive. > > -- > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards > Everywhere / Internet Society > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork< > https://twitter.com/danyork> > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > internetsociety.org | @internetsociety< > https://twitter.com/internetsociety> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From touch at strayalpha.com Wed Dec 2 08:22:41 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 08:22:41 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP checksums (Was: UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: References: <20201129211526.E6E1018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <68A46A12-A24A-4DE9-A3CF-1B052562CB2D@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: <402DD094-BF22-4E34-9767-9D4A55971A01@strayalpha.com> Hi, Louis, This issue seems to be a bit easier to address... > On Dec 1, 2020, at 10:09 PM, Louis Mamakos wrote: > >> The trick is that we don?t insert the complement of the ones complement sum. We insert that ONLY if the ones complement sum is not -0; if it is, we insert -0. However, those instructions are never given in RFC791, RFC1071; they appear only in RFC768: >> If the computed checksum is zero, it is transmitted as all ones (the >> equivalent in one's complement arithmetic). An all zero transmitted >> checksum value means that the transmitter generated no checksum (for >> debugging or for higher level protocols that don't care). >> >> So - technically - the IP checksum CAN be 0 (when the ones complement sum is computed as -0, which can easily happen). That?s what I was thinking about. >> > > But.. the UDP checksum field is the 1's complement of the sum of the bytes in > the message (performed using 1's complement arithmetic.) EXCEPT as per the quoted indented text above. > I wrote my first TCP/IP > stack on a 1's complement, word addressable UNIVAC 1108 - and it's CPU would never > compute a -0 result (all 1's) in the normal course of doing add arithmetic operations. > So if you do the normal sort of sum and it resulted in a zero result (encoded as > the +0 value), the 1's complement of that zero value would be -0, encoded as all > 1 bits in the result. Thus the checksum field would never has all zero bits as > a normal checksum computation. You?d have to take that into account both in the coding and the checking. I.e., for UDP on that machine, after a sum computation, if the sum were zero you?d have to force it to be -0 when written to the header. Further, you?d need to adjust your expectations of a successful checksum calculation - rather than checking for -0 (per RFC791), you would check for 0. > Some years after doing my UDP implementation, I started to undertake a port of the > 4BSD network implementation when later generations of these mainframes supported > a C compiler. The BSD UDP implementation had a bug where they assumed 2's > complement math, so https://github.com/dspinellis/unix-history-repo/commit/87d648fe7e142ce2207e57bba0965e760b43b05f > got submitted by me. ... Indeed? Joe From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Wed Dec 2 08:31:12 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 11:31:12 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: I believe Roger Fradenburgh would be the definitive source.? As I recall, from sitting in the next office, he had the project management responsibility for actually "turning off" the ARPANET. Miles Dan York via Internet-history wrote: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? > > As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet > > There is the statement: > > "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? > > This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. > > I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. > > Any suggestions or pointers? > > Thanks, > Dan > > P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. > > -- > Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society > york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork > > > [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] > internetsociety.org | @internetsociety > -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From york at isoc.org Wed Dec 2 08:30:41 2020 From: york at isoc.org (Dan York) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:30:41 +0000 Subject: [ih] Thank you! Re: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: <7DF44FE0-FD5D-4830-92C4-BCF1547CC8F8@isoc.org> Thank you all! I now have several references that will work for what I need in Wikipedia-land. Providing that info is MUCH appreciated and will help make Wikipedia better. And Craig, yes, it IS odd that that article is the only one missing from https://dl.acm.org/toc/sigcomm-ccr/1990/20/5 . Perhaps there was something with copyright on the maps that did not allow them to be posted. Thank you, Dan On Dec 2, 2020, at 11:00 AM, Craig Partridge > wrote: ACM SIGCOMM CCR, October 1990, p. 81 has an introduction to a collection of ARPANET maps with comments from Vint Cerf. The intro starts with "The ARPANET was turned off this summer, after over 20 years in service." The introduction also has a timeline and its last entry is "July '90 - The ARPANET is retired." For reasons unclear, ACM has chosen not to digitize this part of CCR or its intro but you can see it in the table of contents (https://dl-acm-org.ezproxy2.library.colostate.edu/action/showFmPdf?doi=10.1145%2F381906). Craig (who was CCR editor at the time and has a copy near his desk...) From vint at google.com Wed Dec 2 09:23:55 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:23:55 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <1606874563.32657069@apps.rackspace.com> References: <6ff008e5-4216-a02f-10b5-22434bf1b860@saloits.com> <96e68aae-1f98-b62a-626e-3100f55869cb@gmail.com> <1606874563.32657069@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: great summary David. v On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:02 PM David P. Reed wrote: > Hi all - > > > > I'm glad to be able to try to help. The actual process of designing UDP's > packet format was very brief, and was done in the context of sketching out > how to split TCP into IP, TCP, and UDP right after that decision. > > > > The group doing the design of TCP prior to its split into IP, TCP/IP and > UDP/IP (ICMP/IP wasn't contemplated yet), was a combined group, and the > efforts were combined. This decision was a quick decision to placate those > of us who strongly urged a "first-class" datagram option be part of the > Internetworking Experiment, rather than a pure virtual circuit focus as had > been pursued up to that point. > > > > So UDP was not the focus of the group - in some sense it was a > "placeholder" for a more refined datagram design. While the efforts on the > IP protocol (including fragmentation and routing-related functions that > belonged in the packet forwarding layer) continued, and the efforts on the > TCP virtual circuit functionality continued, UDP was sketched, and kind of > orphaned with no caretakers polishing it up. There was no "UDP group" > formed, as did happen for the IP packet and protocol, separate from the TCP > design efforts. > > > > This was in the late 1970's. > > > > So UDP remained as sketched, until it was finally implemented in various > systems as an end-to-end protocol, where ports were used to demultiplex the > datagrams. Things got a bit weird when OS's started creating system call > interfaces for UDP, because OS's seemed to be stuck in the telephony > mindset where circuits were "set up" and "torn down" during a "connection", > but UDP defined no connection. That was *intentional* in its concept. > Demultiplexing was supposed to be separate from any concept of "connection" > to a foreign entity - the whole idea was that a process could own a socket > that any foreign system could send to - so A could send a request to B, > which would send a message to C, which would send a message to D, and D > could confirm receipt and provide a response to A directly, though A might > not even know that D existed. Such an idea didn't fit with pairwise > connections, but was very important to those of us developing > multi-computer decentralized systems (PARC and my group at MIT were > examples of places where we were developing fault tolerant > process-to-process coordination systems where the fault tolerance was not > "in the OS" because we believed OS's would evolve to span loosely federated > sets of machines (not mainframes, minis or superminis). > > > > That color commentary helps, I think, in understanding the answer to your > specific question, which I will suggest shortly. It's important to > understand that UDP's implementation was distorted by folks like the > Berkeley Unix team who invented "sockets", and it was also frozen in > concrete by the OS folks who implemented the sketch. The result was "ok", > but not polished. Also, because of the premature solidification, many of > the desired goals of UDP were unworkable because "interoperation" had to > cope with semantics imposed by relatively clueless OS network stack > implementors, like Bill Joy's team. > > TCP was the star, UDP was a poor relation, though it was not supposed to > be - those of us who pushed for it thought it was crucial. (since we > accepted that congestion control would be something that had to be > addressed by high-level etiquettes that would stanch packet flows based on > feedback about conditions of the network observed during packet forwarding, > it was disappointing that the congestion control put into TCP was not > properly split between IP and TCP, in my opinion. Further making UDP a poor > relation - with no coherent theory of congestion management, protocols that > used UDP (like RTP) were left to struggle with how to be compatible with > Internet level congestion control. > > > > So, with all that context (and there's more), to answer the question: > > > > 1. UDP's design was minimal and frozen without enough attention being > paid. IMO, there is room for an improved UDP, not based on adding features > to the packets, but by creating a new protocol number for a "UDP2", which > would not, for example, need a redundant length field. > > > > 2. The general view back in the day was that it was not the job of the > protocol designer to focus on likely bugs in protocol stacks. The length > field was redundant w.r.t. the IP header's "Total Length", yes, but > redundancy can be checked. There's nothing "wrong" with having redundancy, > in other words. It's the OS's responsibility to check. (The same reasoning > applies to the redundancy between the IP header's total length and the > length of the underlying Ethernet frame or ATM frame or carrier pigeon > envelope. Yes, if the network on which IP was overlaid had a length field, > too, that provided some redundancy, but redundancy is to be checked, and if > there's no match, it is an error, not a security hole. > > > > 3. It was thought that across all TCP implementations, headers would be > multiples of 32 bit "words" (4 octets). The reasoning was that this was > optimal for all kinds of computers that we could conceive. > > Octets were not "word boundaries" and aligning fields based on octets > would have made things quite awkward on machines that did not have byte > addressed memory systems. 32 bits fit into the DEC systems (PDP-6/10/20, > which many research labs affiliated with ARPA used, and the GE645 and > Honeywell 6180 and 68/80 systems had 36 bit word sizes, and so forth. The > idea of 8-bit byte addressable memories didn't become popular until 8-bit > microprocessors, like the 8080, became important). So clearly the UDP > header would be two or more 32-bit words, even though there were only 3 > 16-bit quantities really needed. > > > > 4. The length field is likely to be needed at the endpoints as part of the > datagram as delivered by the network stack. TCP didn't have a "length" - it > didn't even have packet boundaries at this point. messages within the > infinite stream of bytes that were a virtual circuit in TCP would have to > have length delimiters to separate messages, but they were not part of the > function of the IP header Total Length field. > > That is to say, the TCP receiving port never needed to see (and would not > see) any information derived from the IP header "Total Length". In fact, > when TCP retransmitted a range of bytes, the packet boundaries might be > quite different - that was crucially part of the design of TCP's semantics > as a stream of octets in each direction. Wheras, UDP sent "user datagrams" > that had lengths and a checksum that the *user* was supposed to check (not > the operating system, though the Unix sockets guys screwed that up too!) > > > > That's the story, such as it is. As one of the advocates of the datagram > internet as a primary goal, I think it's a bit sad that the benefit of > datagrams as a mode of richer communications has been poorly developed. > It's OK, but not great. It's also sad that multi-datagram protocols haven't > been developed more maturely - DNS shouldn't require TCP to send longer > one-off messages. That's like using a private jet plane instead of a car > for a family trip because cars only have 2 seats. You should be able to use > 2 cars. > > > > Now that we see some of the benefits (in the QUIC concept to replace the > heavyweight HTTP/TCP mess) it would be nice to be able to go back and > change history. But one cannot. > > > > > > On Sunday, November 29, 2020 7:33am, "Vint Cerf" said: > > the primary proponents of splitting off IP from TCP were Jon Postel, Danny > Cohen and David Reed, I believe. Sadly, Jon and Danny are no longer with > us. My recollection is primarily that UDP was to allow for real-time, > non-retransmitted, non-sequenced delivery for voice, video, radar in which > low latency was more important than sequenced and assured delivery. As to > the length field, it may merely have been habit to include, even if the > value could have been computed. Sometimes was used to distinguish > real data from padding to achieve preferred word boundaries. > v > > On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:21 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Reverse designing it (a bit like reverse engineering), it seems useful >> to be able to check that the intended payload length fits inside the >> actual packet length. If it doesn't, you are exposed to what you might >> call buffer underrun issues. Conversely, if you don't like covert >> channels, >> you might want to detect any spare bits after the payload. >> >> Regards >> Brian Carpenter >> >> On 29-Nov-20 12:42, Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history wrote: >> > Hi, >> > >> > Can anyone provide some [historical] insight into why the UDP header >> > contains a length field? TCP manages to ascertain the length of data in >> > a packet just fine without a length field, so why couldn't UDP? >> > >> > Several people have noted that the UDP length field is redundant, >> > including for example, the current Internet Draft "Transport Options for >> > UDP", >> > . >> > >> > There are some other opinions, some of which sound to me like >> > after-the-fact reasoning: >> > >> > - So that UDP can run over network protocols other than IP (although >> > presumably TCP could do this just fine without a length field). But, >> > the UDP spec says that an IP-like pseudo header needs to be created, >> > in any case. >> > >> > - Layering and encapsulation reasons, (although, again, TCP seems like >> > a counter example). >> > >> > - Word alignment, (there were 16-bits left over, so why not use it for >> > the length?). Personally, this sounds the most likely to me. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > >> > -tjs >> > >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 <(703)%20448-0965> > until further notice > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From j at shoch.com Wed Dec 2 09:40:05 2020 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 09:40:05 -0800 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 15, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wasn't involved in the shut-down of the Arpanet, but a little searching found these: a. Note from Mark Pullen about plans to shut down, dated 28 Mar 88: https://www.krsaborio.net/internet/research/1988/0328.htm b. A message attributed to Roger Fradenburgh, from this Internet History list: https://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/internet-history/2010-October/001706.html John Shoch From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Dec 2 11:49:14 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 11:49:14 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: References: <6ff008e5-4216-a02f-10b5-22434bf1b860@saloits.com> <96e68aae-1f98-b62a-626e-3100f55869cb@gmail.com> <1606874563.32657069@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: Agreed, great summary! I'd add a couple of observations: - Although TCP, today, is a byte-stream service, its earlier incarnation did have record-oriented functionality.?? TCP had mechanisms which delineated different parts of the byte stream, making the traffic flow essentially a procession of datagram-style chunks called "letters". ? This was apparently helpful to implementors on some kinds of machines/OSes, making it possible to minimize the number of copy operations involved in getting incoming data to the right process' address space. Bill Plummer (BBN-Tenex et al) was a primary proponent of "letters", and argued strongly for the inclusion of "end of letter" or EOL flags in the TCP protocol.? This required a mechanism for manipulating the TCP sequence space, affectionately called "rubber EOL".?? I recall there was a meeting, shortly after Bill left the TCP project to do other stuff, where we all decided unanimously to remove the "letter" concept from TCP entirely and do away with "rubber EOL".?? With Bill's absence, no one was left to object. Some historian with an interest in sociology might explore how the technology development was influenced by the comings and goings of the people involved....my gut feeling is that such events were sometimes quite impactful. - Although UDP, and "UDP2" are great ideas, IMHO it's important to note that such protocols are only one part of a complete implementation.? For example, UDP defined a "placeholder" datagram service as Dave noted.? But for UDP traffic to actually achieve low latency non-guaranteed behavior, the TOS (Type Of Service) field was also placed in the IP header.?? TOS was intended to convey information about how a particular IP datagram should be handled, and in conjunction with other information (such as TTL values) would enable computers handling IP traffic (routers, hosts, whatever) to tailor queuing, buffering, and prioritization to be most appropriate for the specified TOS.?? A rudimentary "congestion control" mechanism was define as "Source Quench", but I don't recall anyone thinking that such a simple mechanism would work.?? Experimentation was needed. I recall that, back in the late 70s when my group at BBN was responsible for the "core gateways", there was no difference in handling of IP traffic driven by TOS.? There were 2 major reasons for this: 1) the gateway (router) hardware didn't have enough memory to do much more than the basics, and 2) we didn't know what changes to packet processing algorithms would be appropriate for different TOS settings.?? New hardware would solve problem 1, and much experimentation, especially with packet voice, was expected to address problem 2. >From what I can anecdotally see today, 40 years later, low-latency datagram service on the Internet is not on anyone's radar.? I helped a friend investigate his attempts to use a gaming-type app over the Internet last year, and our experiments discovered that packet loss rate was surprisingly (to me) measured at 0%, latency was on average in the hundreds of milliseconds, but had "tails" of data points out to 30 seconds.? The Internet "IP datagram service" today seems to be very connection-oriented, delivering every packet but with noticeable very long delays.?? I suspect this may be a cause of the anomalies we often see today in TV interviews conducted using the Internet. Bottom line - UDP2 is a great idea, but to be effective many other parts of the overall Internet system would have to evolve as well.?? IMHO. /Jack Haverty On 12/2/20 9:23 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > great summary David. > v > > > On Tue, Dec 1, 2020 at 9:02 PM David P. Reed wrote: > >> Hi all - >> >> >> >> I'm glad to be able to try to help. The actual process of designing UDP's >> packet format was very brief, and was done in the context of sketching out >> how to split TCP into IP, TCP, and UDP right after that decision. >> >> >> >> The group doing the design of TCP prior to its split into IP, TCP/IP and >> UDP/IP (ICMP/IP wasn't contemplated yet), was a combined group, and the >> efforts were combined. This decision was a quick decision to placate those >> of us who strongly urged a "first-class" datagram option be part of the >> Internetworking Experiment, rather than a pure virtual circuit focus as had >> been pursued up to that point. >> >> >> >> So UDP was not the focus of the group - in some sense it was a >> "placeholder" for a more refined datagram design. While the efforts on the >> IP protocol (including fragmentation and routing-related functions that >> belonged in the packet forwarding layer) continued, and the efforts on the >> TCP virtual circuit functionality continued, UDP was sketched, and kind of >> orphaned with no caretakers polishing it up. There was no "UDP group" >> formed, as did happen for the IP packet and protocol, separate from the TCP >> design efforts. >> >> >> >> This was in the late 1970's. >> >> >> >> So UDP remained as sketched, until it was finally implemented in various >> systems as an end-to-end protocol, where ports were used to demultiplex the >> datagrams. Things got a bit weird when OS's started creating system call >> interfaces for UDP, because OS's seemed to be stuck in the telephony >> mindset where circuits were "set up" and "torn down" during a "connection", >> but UDP defined no connection. That was *intentional* in its concept. >> Demultiplexing was supposed to be separate from any concept of "connection" >> to a foreign entity - the whole idea was that a process could own a socket >> that any foreign system could send to - so A could send a request to B, >> which would send a message to C, which would send a message to D, and D >> could confirm receipt and provide a response to A directly, though A might >> not even know that D existed. Such an idea didn't fit with pairwise >> connections, but was very important to those of us developing >> multi-computer decentralized systems (PARC and my group at MIT were >> examples of places where we were developing fault tolerant >> process-to-process coordination systems where the fault tolerance was not >> "in the OS" because we believed OS's would evolve to span loosely federated >> sets of machines (not mainframes, minis or superminis). >> >> >> >> That color commentary helps, I think, in understanding the answer to your >> specific question, which I will suggest shortly. It's important to >> understand that UDP's implementation was distorted by folks like the >> Berkeley Unix team who invented "sockets", and it was also frozen in >> concrete by the OS folks who implemented the sketch. The result was "ok", >> but not polished. Also, because of the premature solidification, many of >> the desired goals of UDP were unworkable because "interoperation" had to >> cope with semantics imposed by relatively clueless OS network stack >> implementors, like Bill Joy's team. >> >> TCP was the star, UDP was a poor relation, though it was not supposed to >> be - those of us who pushed for it thought it was crucial. (since we >> accepted that congestion control would be something that had to be >> addressed by high-level etiquettes that would stanch packet flows based on >> feedback about conditions of the network observed during packet forwarding, >> it was disappointing that the congestion control put into TCP was not >> properly split between IP and TCP, in my opinion. Further making UDP a poor >> relation - with no coherent theory of congestion management, protocols that >> used UDP (like RTP) were left to struggle with how to be compatible with >> Internet level congestion control. >> >> >> >> So, with all that context (and there's more), to answer the question: >> >> >> >> 1. UDP's design was minimal and frozen without enough attention being >> paid. IMO, there is room for an improved UDP, not based on adding features >> to the packets, but by creating a new protocol number for a "UDP2", which >> would not, for example, need a redundant length field. >> >> >> >> 2. The general view back in the day was that it was not the job of the >> protocol designer to focus on likely bugs in protocol stacks. The length >> field was redundant w.r.t. the IP header's "Total Length", yes, but >> redundancy can be checked. There's nothing "wrong" with having redundancy, >> in other words. It's the OS's responsibility to check. (The same reasoning >> applies to the redundancy between the IP header's total length and the >> length of the underlying Ethernet frame or ATM frame or carrier pigeon >> envelope. Yes, if the network on which IP was overlaid had a length field, >> too, that provided some redundancy, but redundancy is to be checked, and if >> there's no match, it is an error, not a security hole. >> >> >> >> 3. It was thought that across all TCP implementations, headers would be >> multiples of 32 bit "words" (4 octets). The reasoning was that this was >> optimal for all kinds of computers that we could conceive. >> >> Octets were not "word boundaries" and aligning fields based on octets >> would have made things quite awkward on machines that did not have byte >> addressed memory systems. 32 bits fit into the DEC systems (PDP-6/10/20, >> which many research labs affiliated with ARPA used, and the GE645 and >> Honeywell 6180 and 68/80 systems had 36 bit word sizes, and so forth. The >> idea of 8-bit byte addressable memories didn't become popular until 8-bit >> microprocessors, like the 8080, became important). So clearly the UDP >> header would be two or more 32-bit words, even though there were only 3 >> 16-bit quantities really needed. >> >> >> >> 4. The length field is likely to be needed at the endpoints as part of the >> datagram as delivered by the network stack. TCP didn't have a "length" - it >> didn't even have packet boundaries at this point. messages within the >> infinite stream of bytes that were a virtual circuit in TCP would have to >> have length delimiters to separate messages, but they were not part of the >> function of the IP header Total Length field. >> >> That is to say, the TCP receiving port never needed to see (and would not >> see) any information derived from the IP header "Total Length". In fact, >> when TCP retransmitted a range of bytes, the packet boundaries might be >> quite different - that was crucially part of the design of TCP's semantics >> as a stream of octets in each direction. Wheras, UDP sent "user datagrams" >> that had lengths and a checksum that the *user* was supposed to check (not >> the operating system, though the Unix sockets guys screwed that up too!) >> >> >> >> That's the story, such as it is. As one of the advocates of the datagram >> internet as a primary goal, I think it's a bit sad that the benefit of >> datagrams as a mode of richer communications has been poorly developed. >> It's OK, but not great. It's also sad that multi-datagram protocols haven't >> been developed more maturely - DNS shouldn't require TCP to send longer >> one-off messages. That's like using a private jet plane instead of a car >> for a family trip because cars only have 2 seats. You should be able to use >> 2 cars. >> >> >> >> Now that we see some of the benefits (in the QUIC concept to replace the >> heavyweight HTTP/TCP mess) it would be nice to be able to go back and >> change history. But one cannot. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sunday, November 29, 2020 7:33am, "Vint Cerf" said: >> >> the primary proponents of splitting off IP from TCP were Jon Postel, Danny >> Cohen and David Reed, I believe. Sadly, Jon and Danny are no longer with >> us. My recollection is primarily that UDP was to allow for real-time, >> non-retransmitted, non-sequenced delivery for voice, video, radar in which >> low latency was more important than sequenced and assured delivery. As to >> the length field, it may merely have been habit to include, even if the >> value could have been computed. Sometimes was used to distinguish >> real data from padding to achieve preferred word boundaries. >> v >> >> On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 8:21 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> Reverse designing it (a bit like reverse engineering), it seems useful >>> to be able to check that the intended payload length fits inside the >>> actual packet length. If it doesn't, you are exposed to what you might >>> call buffer underrun issues. Conversely, if you don't like covert >>> channels, >>> you might want to detect any spare bits after the payload. >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian Carpenter >>> >>> On 29-Nov-20 12:42, Timothy J. Salo via Internet-history wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Can anyone provide some [historical] insight into why the UDP header >>>> contains a length field? TCP manages to ascertain the length of data in >>>> a packet just fine without a length field, so why couldn't UDP? >>>> >>>> Several people have noted that the UDP length field is redundant, >>>> including for example, the current Internet Draft "Transport Options for >>>> UDP", >>>> . >>>> >>>> There are some other opinions, some of which sound to me like >>>> after-the-fact reasoning: >>>> >>>> - So that UDP can run over network protocols other than IP (although >>>> presumably TCP could do this just fine without a length field). But, >>>> the UDP spec says that an IP-like pseudo header needs to be created, >>>> in any case. >>>> >>>> - Layering and encapsulation reasons, (although, again, TCP seems like >>>> a counter example). >>>> >>>> - Word alignment, (there were 16-bits left over, so why not use it for >>>> the length?). Personally, this sounds the most likely to me. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> >>>> -tjs >>>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> -- >> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >> Vint Cerf >> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd >> McLean, VA 22102 >> 703-448-0965 <(703)%20448-0965> >> until further notice >> > > From vint at google.com Wed Dec 2 12:13:57 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 15:13:57 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: David Reed's timing comports with what I remember. I got to ARPA in Sept 1976. TCP2 came out in (early?) 1977, then the split of TCP/IP; TCP 2.5, TCP 3 (at which point I think the IP doc and new TCP doc appear. Then TCP/IP v4 in 1978 (from memory; have not checked RFCs). David is also right about Internet and TCP going along in parallel with ARPANET and documents: Internet Experiment Notes. We did publish RFC 675 in Dec 1974 Internet Transmission Control Protocol. I have a fairly clear recollection of being at USC/ISI with Jon, Danny Cohen and David Reed in 1977 discussing the real-time application needs that TCP would not satisfy owing to retransmission delays. v On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM David P. Reed wrote: > Noel - you are plain wrong that UDP happened after the split. UDP was > created in 1977, by me and Jon Postel and Danny Cohen, primarily. The > "spec" was a sketch in Jon's notes, not an RFC. (RFC's dont tell the full > history, not by far! Especially back then, where the TCP working group was > working on its own, separate from the ARPANET process of RFC's. Our work > was in email and in meetings. The split was done on the blackboard at > Marina del Rey, with IP, TCP and UDP all defined. UDP at that time > satisfied Danny, me, and John Schoch who were the main "users" demanding a > datagram user level. > > > > As I recall, you, Noel, were not involved at all in the Internet project > at that time (nor was Dave Clark directly). I was the guy. I had spent > summer 1976 designing DSP, and in the fall Bob Kahn and Vint strongly > discouraged continuing with DSP for LANs, and encouraged me to join the TCP > project to bring my ideas into that framework. Which I did, until early > 1978, when demands of completing my doctoral thesis forced me to stop > direct participation and Dave Clark became involved. > > > > As I recall, you were engaged with token ring hardware during that time, > not TCP or IP, along with Clark and Pogran, right? > > > > PS: I've given up, mostly, on trying to help clarify Internet "history". > Because of the egos involved seeking credit as the "father", claiming the > Internet was just ARPANET (BBN) and not a separable concept about > internetworking, etc. what I find is that books like Katie Hafner's BBN > propaganda are accepted as the truth, along with propaganda from UCLA etc. > In fact, the history is far more complex than these tales of "heroic" > inventions of things like the "@" that is said to be Tomlinson's only > contribution! (Ray did FAR more, including sorting out sequence numbering > and encouraging the use of 32-bit oriented frame structures, even on 36-bit > machines like PDP-10's and GE645's. > > > > I have very little interest in getting "credit" to stroke my ego, unlike > some in the community. But I do wish people would get it right. > > > > > > On Sunday, November 29, 2020 2:28pm, "Vint Cerf" said: > > Noel, > yes, we did the split to support real-time and then concluded that UDP was > the best way to present the "service" vs running over raw IP. > v > > On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:46 PM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > From: Craig Partridge >> >> > Recall that the creation of UDP meant TCP and IP had to be split >> apart >> >> No. The TCP/IP split _long_ predates the creation of UDP. The former is >> already apparent as of IEN-21, "TCP 3 Specification" (see pages 56 and 59 >> for >> the IP and TCP header formats), from January 1978. UDP is IEN-71, from >> 21-Jan-79 (and as I recall, there was not a lengthy discussion before it >> came >> out). >> >> Oh, looking at IEN-71, in the packet format description, it says "data, >> padded >> with zero octets at the end to make a multiple of two octets". So Vint's >> comment >> about the length was right on target. >> >> It mentions host name lookup (_not_ DNS; it was servers which had a copy >> of >> the host table) as the intended appplication. Time was also early, IIRC. >> My >> recollection is that TFTP was the first non-datagra protocol (i.e. not >> single-packet transactions) to make use of UDP, but my memory mmay be >> failing >> me there. >> >> Noel >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 <(703)%20448-0965> > until further notice > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From jtk at dataplane.org Wed Dec 2 12:19:04 2020 From: jtk at dataplane.org (John Kristoff) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 14:19:04 -0600 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: References: <6ff008e5-4216-a02f-10b5-22434bf1b860@saloits.com> <96e68aae-1f98-b62a-626e-3100f55869cb@gmail.com> <1606874563.32657069@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: <20201202141904.26606fd3@p50.localdomain> On Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:23:55 -0500 Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > DNS shouldn't require TCP to send longer one-off messages. That's > > like using a private jet plane instead of a car for a family trip > > because cars only have 2 seats. You should be able to use 2 cars. While not the initial and primary reason, TCP switchover in DNS has become widely used to mitigate floods of large, source address spoofed messages making it to the service interface. This is more popularly known as an amplification and reflection style attack. A situation that arises not only with the DNS, but has been seen with a number of UDP-based applications. Some have suggested doing away with UDP entirely on an interdomain basis due to frustration with uncontrolled senders taking advantage of this asymmetric imbalance. While many won't do this for fear of breaking DNS, NTP, or QUIC, some edge networks (e.g. corp/org) networks alrady do. :-( John From scott.brim at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 12:24:25 2020 From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 15:24:25 -0500 Subject: [ih] Internet-history Digest, Vol 15, Issue 4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I remember both of those messages and I remember the juggling we had to do with the gatedaemon to keep people connected via NSFnet. Sorry, I've been trying to find explicit dates for disassembly but haven't been able to. From casner at acm.org Wed Dec 2 12:38:07 2020 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 12:38:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > I have a fairly clear recollection of being at USC/ISI with Jon, Danny > Cohen and David Reed in 1977 discussing the real-time application needs > that TCP would not satisfy owing to retransmission delays. I can recall that meeting at ISI as well, but the details are all fuzzy. One memory that stuck with me but that I can't reconstruct accurately was of Danny at the blackboard (I think it was still chalk then) talking about the need for a communications service that avoided the delay imposed by TCP's reliability mechanisms. He described the two communication services as functions or transforms written in the notation of equation, where TCP's service was a composition including the reliability function R. He said something like perhaps we could get the service we wanted by composing the TCP transform with an unreliability function R (superscript) -1, but concluded that it would be better to have a separate service that did not include the reliability mechanism to start with. A few years ago I described my memory to Danny to see if he remembered and could help me reconstruct my memory more completely, but he did not recall it. -- Steve From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Dec 2 14:40:43 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 14:40:43 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> At the time (late 70s), there was another issue related to UDP and real-time applications.?? The Internet was in its "fuzzy peach" stage of development, where almost all long-haul links were established by interconnecting gateways at user sites to the ARPANET.?? The ARPANET was effectively a "byte stream" service, where everything sent in from a host was delivered to the host at the other end intact, in order, and reliably.? This made it difficult to imagine much useful experimentation with UDP and lossy transmission, since the ARPANET would never lose anything, and retransmit internally as needed to deliver the data in order. There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all of the reliability mechanisms. ? That could be used to deliver datagram Internet service.?? However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET.?? I recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any permissions ever being granted.?? John Kristoff's mention of the problems today's operators are facing was a reminder that the issue of how to control datagram service still has not been solved -- other than by turning it off.?? UDP functionality is about more than defining a protocol.... /Jack Haverty On 12/2/20 12:13 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > David Reed's timing comports with what I remember. I got to ARPA in Sept > 1976. TCP2 came out in (early?) 1977, then the split of TCP/IP; TCP 2.5, > TCP 3 (at which point I think the IP doc and new TCP doc appear. Then > TCP/IP v4 in 1978 (from memory; have not checked RFCs). David is also right > about Internet and TCP going along in parallel with ARPANET and documents: > Internet Experiment Notes. We did publish RFC 675 in Dec 1974 Internet > Transmission Control Protocol. > > I have a fairly clear recollection of being at USC/ISI with Jon, Danny > Cohen and David Reed in 1977 discussing the real-time application needs > that TCP would not satisfy owing to retransmission delays. > > v > > > > > On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM David P. Reed wrote: > >> Noel - you are plain wrong that UDP happened after the split. UDP was >> created in 1977, by me and Jon Postel and Danny Cohen, primarily. The >> "spec" was a sketch in Jon's notes, not an RFC. (RFC's dont tell the full >> history, not by far! Especially back then, where the TCP working group was >> working on its own, separate from the ARPANET process of RFC's. Our work >> was in email and in meetings. The split was done on the blackboard at >> Marina del Rey, with IP, TCP and UDP all defined. UDP at that time >> satisfied Danny, me, and John Schoch who were the main "users" demanding a >> datagram user level. >> >> >> >> As I recall, you, Noel, were not involved at all in the Internet project >> at that time (nor was Dave Clark directly). I was the guy. I had spent >> summer 1976 designing DSP, and in the fall Bob Kahn and Vint strongly >> discouraged continuing with DSP for LANs, and encouraged me to join the TCP >> project to bring my ideas into that framework. Which I did, until early >> 1978, when demands of completing my doctoral thesis forced me to stop >> direct participation and Dave Clark became involved. >> >> >> >> As I recall, you were engaged with token ring hardware during that time, >> not TCP or IP, along with Clark and Pogran, right? >> >> >> >> PS: I've given up, mostly, on trying to help clarify Internet "history". >> Because of the egos involved seeking credit as the "father", claiming the >> Internet was just ARPANET (BBN) and not a separable concept about >> internetworking, etc. what I find is that books like Katie Hafner's BBN >> propaganda are accepted as the truth, along with propaganda from UCLA etc. >> In fact, the history is far more complex than these tales of "heroic" >> inventions of things like the "@" that is said to be Tomlinson's only >> contribution! (Ray did FAR more, including sorting out sequence numbering >> and encouraging the use of 32-bit oriented frame structures, even on 36-bit >> machines like PDP-10's and GE645's. >> >> >> >> I have very little interest in getting "credit" to stroke my ego, unlike >> some in the community. But I do wish people would get it right. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sunday, November 29, 2020 2:28pm, "Vint Cerf" said: >> >> Noel, >> yes, we did the split to support real-time and then concluded that UDP was >> the best way to present the "service" vs running over raw IP. >> v >> >> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:46 PM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> > From: Craig Partridge >>> >>> > Recall that the creation of UDP meant TCP and IP had to be split >>> apart >>> >>> No. The TCP/IP split _long_ predates the creation of UDP. The former is >>> already apparent as of IEN-21, "TCP 3 Specification" (see pages 56 and 59 >>> for >>> the IP and TCP header formats), from January 1978. UDP is IEN-71, from >>> 21-Jan-79 (and as I recall, there was not a lengthy discussion before it >>> came >>> out). >>> >>> Oh, looking at IEN-71, in the packet format description, it says "data, >>> padded >>> with zero octets at the end to make a multiple of two octets". So Vint's >>> comment >>> about the length was right on target. >>> >>> It mentions host name lookup (_not_ DNS; it was servers which had a copy >>> of >>> the host table) as the intended appplication. Time was also early, IIRC. >>> My >>> recollection is that TFTP was the first non-datagra protocol (i.e. not >>> single-packet transactions) to make use of UDP, but my memory mmay be >>> failing >>> me there. >>> >>> Noel >>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> -- >> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >> Vint Cerf >> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd >> McLean, VA 22102 >> 703-448-0965 <(703)%20448-0965> >> until further notice >> > > From sob at sobco.com Wed Dec 2 15:14:31 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 18:14:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <5AAC5F78-4F27-4D49-8F0B-8B6FE79E019A@sobco.com> Danny said he used the bypass for his voice experiments - see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4&amp;feature=youtube_gdata at 31:25 Scott > On Dec 2, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > At the time (late 70s), there was another issue related to UDP and > real-time applications. The Internet was in its "fuzzy peach" stage of > development, where almost all long-haul links were established by > interconnecting gateways at user sites to the ARPANET. > > The ARPANET was effectively a "byte stream" service, where everything > sent in from a host was delivered to the host at the other end intact, > in order, and reliably. This made it difficult to imagine much useful > experimentation with UDP and lossy transmission, since the ARPANET would > never lose anything, and retransmit internally as needed to deliver the > data in order. > > There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the > ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all > of the reliability mechanisms. That could be used to deliver datagram > Internet service. However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were > extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, > for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET. I > recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET > uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any > permissions ever being granted. John Kristoff's mention of the > problems today's operators are facing was a reminder that the issue of > how to control datagram service still has not been solved -- other than > by turning it off. > > UDP functionality is about more than defining a protocol.... > > /Jack Haverty > > > On 12/2/20 12:13 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> David Reed's timing comports with what I remember. I got to ARPA in Sept >> 1976. TCP2 came out in (early?) 1977, then the split of TCP/IP; TCP 2.5, >> TCP 3 (at which point I think the IP doc and new TCP doc appear. Then >> TCP/IP v4 in 1978 (from memory; have not checked RFCs). David is also right >> about Internet and TCP going along in parallel with ARPANET and documents: >> Internet Experiment Notes. We did publish RFC 675 in Dec 1974 Internet >> Transmission Control Protocol. >> >> I have a fairly clear recollection of being at USC/ISI with Jon, Danny >> Cohen and David Reed in 1977 discussing the real-time application needs >> that TCP would not satisfy owing to retransmission delays. >> >> v >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM David P. Reed wrote: >> >>> Noel - you are plain wrong that UDP happened after the split. UDP was >>> created in 1977, by me and Jon Postel and Danny Cohen, primarily. The >>> "spec" was a sketch in Jon's notes, not an RFC. (RFC's dont tell the full >>> history, not by far! Especially back then, where the TCP working group was >>> working on its own, separate from the ARPANET process of RFC's. Our work >>> was in email and in meetings. The split was done on the blackboard at >>> Marina del Rey, with IP, TCP and UDP all defined. UDP at that time >>> satisfied Danny, me, and John Schoch who were the main "users" demanding a >>> datagram user level. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I recall, you, Noel, were not involved at all in the Internet project >>> at that time (nor was Dave Clark directly). I was the guy. I had spent >>> summer 1976 designing DSP, and in the fall Bob Kahn and Vint strongly >>> discouraged continuing with DSP for LANs, and encouraged me to join the TCP >>> project to bring my ideas into that framework. Which I did, until early >>> 1978, when demands of completing my doctoral thesis forced me to stop >>> direct participation and Dave Clark became involved. >>> >>> >>> >>> As I recall, you were engaged with token ring hardware during that time, >>> not TCP or IP, along with Clark and Pogran, right? >>> >>> >>> >>> PS: I've given up, mostly, on trying to help clarify Internet "history". >>> Because of the egos involved seeking credit as the "father", claiming the >>> Internet was just ARPANET (BBN) and not a separable concept about >>> internetworking, etc. what I find is that books like Katie Hafner's BBN >>> propaganda are accepted as the truth, along with propaganda from UCLA etc. >>> In fact, the history is far more complex than these tales of "heroic" >>> inventions of things like the "@" that is said to be Tomlinson's only >>> contribution! (Ray did FAR more, including sorting out sequence numbering >>> and encouraging the use of 32-bit oriented frame structures, even on 36-bit >>> machines like PDP-10's and GE645's. >>> >>> >>> >>> I have very little interest in getting "credit" to stroke my ego, unlike >>> some in the community. But I do wish people would get it right. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, November 29, 2020 2:28pm, "Vint Cerf" said: >>> >>> Noel, >>> yes, we did the split to support real-time and then concluded that UDP was >>> the best way to present the "service" vs running over raw IP. >>> v >>> >>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:46 PM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>>> From: Craig Partridge >>>> >>>>> Recall that the creation of UDP meant TCP and IP had to be split >>>> apart >>>> >>>> No. The TCP/IP split _long_ predates the creation of UDP. The former is >>>> already apparent as of IEN-21, "TCP 3 Specification" (see pages 56 and 59 >>>> for >>>> the IP and TCP header formats), from January 1978. UDP is IEN-71, from >>>> 21-Jan-79 (and as I recall, there was not a lengthy discussion before it >>>> came >>>> out). >>>> >>>> Oh, looking at IEN-71, in the packet format description, it says "data, >>>> padded >>>> with zero octets at the end to make a multiple of two octets". So Vint's >>>> comment >>>> about the length was right on target. >>>> >>>> It mentions host name lookup (_not_ DNS; it was servers which had a copy >>>> of >>>> the host table) as the intended appplication. Time was also early, IIRC. >>>> My >>>> recollection is that TFTP was the first non-datagra protocol (i.e. not >>>> single-packet transactions) to make use of UDP, but my memory mmay be >>>> failing >>>> me there. >>>> >>>> Noel >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >>> -- >>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: >>> Vint Cerf >>> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd >>> McLean, VA 22102 >>> 703-448-0965 <(703)%20448-0965> >>> until further notice >>> >> >> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Wed Dec 2 15:32:48 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 18:32:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <5AAC5F78-4F27-4D49-8F0B-8B6FE79E019A@sobco.com> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> <5AAC5F78-4F27-4D49-8F0B-8B6FE79E019A@sobco.com> Message-ID: this is WONDERFUL! I don't think I knew about this or, if I did, it was long forgotten. vint On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 6:15 PM Scott O. Bradner via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Danny said he used the bypass for his voice experiments - see > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=av4KF1j-wp4&amp;feature=youtube_gdata > at 31:25 > > Scott > > > On Dec 2, 2020, at 5:40 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > At the time (late 70s), there was another issue related to UDP and > > real-time applications. The Internet was in its "fuzzy peach" stage of > > development, where almost all long-haul links were established by > > interconnecting gateways at user sites to the ARPANET. > > > > The ARPANET was effectively a "byte stream" service, where everything > > sent in from a host was delivered to the host at the other end intact, > > in order, and reliably. This made it difficult to imagine much useful > > experimentation with UDP and lossy transmission, since the ARPANET would > > never lose anything, and retransmit internally as needed to deliver the > > data in order. > > > > There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the > > ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all > > of the reliability mechanisms. That could be used to deliver datagram > > Internet service. However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were > > extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, > > for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET. I > > recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET > > uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any > > permissions ever being granted. John Kristoff's mention of the > > problems today's operators are facing was a reminder that the issue of > > how to control datagram service still has not been solved -- other than > > by turning it off. > > > > UDP functionality is about more than defining a protocol.... > > > > /Jack Haverty > > > > > > On 12/2/20 12:13 PM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >> David Reed's timing comports with what I remember. I got to ARPA in Sept > >> 1976. TCP2 came out in (early?) 1977, then the split of TCP/IP; TCP 2.5, > >> TCP 3 (at which point I think the IP doc and new TCP doc appear. Then > >> TCP/IP v4 in 1978 (from memory; have not checked RFCs). David is also > right > >> about Internet and TCP going along in parallel with ARPANET and > documents: > >> Internet Experiment Notes. We did publish RFC 675 in Dec 1974 Internet > >> Transmission Control Protocol. > >> > >> I have a fairly clear recollection of being at USC/ISI with Jon, Danny > >> Cohen and David Reed in 1977 discussing the real-time application needs > >> that TCP would not satisfy owing to retransmission delays. > >> > >> v > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 1:07 PM David P. Reed > wrote: > >> > >>> Noel - you are plain wrong that UDP happened after the split. UDP was > >>> created in 1977, by me and Jon Postel and Danny Cohen, primarily. The > >>> "spec" was a sketch in Jon's notes, not an RFC. (RFC's dont tell the > full > >>> history, not by far! Especially back then, where the TCP working group > was > >>> working on its own, separate from the ARPANET process of RFC's. Our > work > >>> was in email and in meetings. The split was done on the blackboard at > >>> Marina del Rey, with IP, TCP and UDP all defined. UDP at that time > >>> satisfied Danny, me, and John Schoch who were the main "users" > demanding a > >>> datagram user level. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> As I recall, you, Noel, were not involved at all in the Internet > project > >>> at that time (nor was Dave Clark directly). I was the guy. I had spent > >>> summer 1976 designing DSP, and in the fall Bob Kahn and Vint strongly > >>> discouraged continuing with DSP for LANs, and encouraged me to join > the TCP > >>> project to bring my ideas into that framework. Which I did, until early > >>> 1978, when demands of completing my doctoral thesis forced me to stop > >>> direct participation and Dave Clark became involved. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> As I recall, you were engaged with token ring hardware during that > time, > >>> not TCP or IP, along with Clark and Pogran, right? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> PS: I've given up, mostly, on trying to help clarify Internet > "history". > >>> Because of the egos involved seeking credit as the "father", claiming > the > >>> Internet was just ARPANET (BBN) and not a separable concept about > >>> internetworking, etc. what I find is that books like Katie Hafner's BBN > >>> propaganda are accepted as the truth, along with propaganda from UCLA > etc. > >>> In fact, the history is far more complex than these tales of "heroic" > >>> inventions of things like the "@" that is said to be Tomlinson's only > >>> contribution! (Ray did FAR more, including sorting out sequence > numbering > >>> and encouraging the use of 32-bit oriented frame structures, even on > 36-bit > >>> machines like PDP-10's and GE645's. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> I have very little interest in getting "credit" to stroke my ego, > unlike > >>> some in the community. But I do wish people would get it right. > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On Sunday, November 29, 2020 2:28pm, "Vint Cerf" > said: > >>> > >>> Noel, > >>> yes, we did the split to support real-time and then concluded that UDP > was > >>> the best way to present the "service" vs running over raw IP. > >>> v > >>> > >>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 1:46 PM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>>> From: Craig Partridge > >>>> > >>>>> Recall that the creation of UDP meant TCP and IP had to be split > >>>> apart > >>>> > >>>> No. The TCP/IP split _long_ predates the creation of UDP. The former > is > >>>> already apparent as of IEN-21, "TCP 3 Specification" (see pages 56 > and 59 > >>>> for > >>>> the IP and TCP header formats), from January 1978. UDP is IEN-71, from > >>>> 21-Jan-79 (and as I recall, there was not a lengthy discussion before > it > >>>> came > >>>> out). > >>>> > >>>> Oh, looking at IEN-71, in the packet format description, it says > "data, > >>>> padded > >>>> with zero octets at the end to make a multiple of two octets". So > Vint's > >>>> comment > >>>> about the length was right on target. > >>>> > >>>> It mentions host name lookup (_not_ DNS; it was servers which had a > copy > >>>> of > >>>> the host table) as the intended appplication. Time was also early, > IIRC. > >>>> My > >>>> recollection is that TFTP was the first non-datagra protocol (i.e. not > >>>> single-packet transactions) to make use of UDP, but my memory mmay be > >>>> failing > >>>> me there. > >>>> > >>>> Noel > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > >>> Vint Cerf > >>> 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > >>> McLean, VA 22102 > >>> 703-448-0965 <(703)%20448-0965> > >>> until further notice > >>> > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From j at shoch.com Wed Dec 2 16:19:51 2020 From: j at shoch.com (John Shoch) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:19:51 -0800 Subject: [ih] Danny C. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Regarding Danny Cohen, unreliable voice, and the TCP split: I wish we all had perfect memories of events that took place over 42 years ago...... We can, though, try to reconstruct some of the history and the meetings we attended: --I'm sure Danny argued at many meetings for real-time voice, datagrams, unreliable/low-latency transmission, etc. --As I recall, through the end of 1977 TCP was one layer. --There were also two sets of meetings going on: an Internet group and a TCP group. --There was a meeting of the TCP group on Jan. 30-31, 1978, in S. Cal., where there was a lively discussion about layering, voice, fragmentation, etc. It appears that Postel drafted notes, dated Feb. 8, 1978 (although it got numbered as IEN 67, which must have been later). https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien67.pdf >From that memo: "Introduction and Objectives -- Cerf The main objective is to get TCP-3 straightened out...." "Arrangements -- Cohen. ... Uses this time to complain about TCP-3 becomming [sic] all things to all people. *Also illustration of the approach to voice service via an "unreliability" package on top of TCP*." [emphasis added] [As many of you know, Danny had a really insightful, satirical wit.] --The following day there was a meeting of the Internet group, on Feb. 1, 1978. Postel also wrote up notes from this meeting, dated 3 February 1978 (IEN 22). https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien22.pdf "Introduction and Objectives - Cerf Vint primarily presented a summary of the results of the TCP meeting which took place the preceeding [sic] two days. The main result is a decision ... to provide for a set of parallel protocols that all utilize a common "datagram" type internet protocol." Danny C. and Jon P. -- two exceptional people, whom we miss.... John Shoch [PS: To put this history in context -- imagine we were all again in that room at ISI in 1978, arguing about who said what 42 years before, in 1936..... Fortunately, we now have more documents preserved on the ... internet....] From casner at acm.org Wed Dec 2 16:33:47 2020 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 16:33:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the > ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all > of the reliability mechanisms. That could be used to deliver datagram > Internet service. However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were > extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, > for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET. I > recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET > uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any > permissions ever being granted. We definitely did get permission to use this for packet voice experiments between ISI and LL, for example. What I recall is that initially we were required to arrange with BBN for a specific experiment time between specific hosts and the uncontrolled mode (Type 0, Subtype 3 -- BBN 1822 p. 3-17) would be enabled only for those hosts. But later I believe our packet voice hosts were enabled all the time. -- Steve From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 2 16:50:54 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 19:50:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?UDP_Length_Field=3F?= Message-ID: <20201203005054.252B618C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "David P. Reed" > you are plain wrong that UDP happened after the split. UDP was created > in 1977, by me and Jon Postel and Danny Cohen, primarily. The "spec" was a > sketch in Jon's notes, not an RFC. I wrote of the creation of UDP as a protocol spec, not the origin of the basic concept of user access to an unreliable datagram service, and thus the neccessity of splitting TCP-1 into IP and TCP (none of which I was around for). (It was easy to look up the date for the spec in IEN-Index.txt...) If one re-reads Craig's comment: >>> Recall that the creation of UDP meant TCP and IP had to be split apart in terms of the basic idea, rather than the spec (discussion of which is what the thread started out as), then yeah, it was to allow the creation of UDP (as a distinct user-accessible service model) that IP and TCP were split. Sorry if I misunderstood you, Craig. > As I recall, you, Noel, were not involved at all in the Internet project > at that time I joined the MIT group in the fall of '77. (I did a deal with Dave Clark to do diagnostics for the LNI, in return for machine time to explore my OS ideas - which never happened, I pretty quickly drifted into internet work. Nobody in the group knew anything about PDP-11's, which is why Dave roped me in.) The first INWG meeting I went to was in August of 1978, the one at Lincoln; you and I went for MIT. > As I recall, you were engaged with token ring hardware during that time, > not TCP or IP, along with Clark and Pogran, right? I don'r recall Dave ever having much to do with the LNI; Ken Pogran did essentially all the hardware work, once we got the design from Irvine. (I recall studying the UNIBUS handbook, so may have helped a bit with the bus interface part, but I don't recall recall.) I did only software; test programs and simple diagnostics, and then moved on to a Unix driver. Shortly thereafter I did TFTP (which was simply a ripoff of EFTP) to give us a way to get bits into and out of the machine. It was the first serious application to use UDP (although not in the complex ways you mention; we just wanted the simplest possible thing). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 2 17:11:03 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 20:11:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? Message-ID: <20201203011104.015CC18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jack Haverty > the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were extremely reluctant to permit > hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, for fear that the uncontrolled > traffic would crash the ARPANET. The irony, of course, is that some years afterward, we managed to crash the ARPANET _without_ use of type 3 packets. So Van then had to invent TCP congestion control... Noel From steve at shinkuro.com Wed Dec 2 17:20:43 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 20:20:43 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <20201203011104.015CC18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201203011104.015CC18C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Heh. I managed to indirectly crash the Arpanet in early 1972 by advising the folks at Tinker AFB in Oklahoma City to aim for maximum throughput in an ad hoc file transfer protocol by using eight connections in parallel to defeat the flow control in the IMP system. I hadn't expected or intended the Arpanet would crash, but it definitely did. I was told it only took four seconds. Steve On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 8:11 PM Noel Chiappa via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > From: Jack Haverty > > > the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were extremely reluctant to > permit > > hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, for fear that the > uncontrolled > > traffic would crash the ARPANET. > > The irony, of course, is that some years afterward, we managed to crash the > ARPANET _without_ use of type 3 packets. So Van then had to invent TCP > congestion control... > > Noel > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From louie at transsys.com Wed Dec 2 22:27:09 2020 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 01:27:09 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP checksums (Was: UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: <402DD094-BF22-4E34-9767-9D4A55971A01@strayalpha.com> References: <20201129211526.E6E1018C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <68A46A12-A24A-4DE9-A3CF-1B052562CB2D@strayalpha.com> <402DD094-BF22-4E34-9767-9D4A55971A01@strayalpha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:22 AM Joseph Touch wrote: > > You?d have to take that into account both in the coding and the checking. > I.e., for UDP on that machine, after a sum computation, if the sum were > zero you?d have to force it to be -0 when written to the header. > > Further, you?d need to adjust your expectations of a successful checksum > calculation - rather than checking for -0 (per RFC791), you would check for > 0. > The UDP checksum field stores the 1's complement (negative value, logical NOT of all the bits) of the computed checksum of the UDP payload and header, with the checksum field set to zero. So when the UDP datagram is received, the UDP stack would do a checksum of the entire header, including the checksum field and payload, the result should be zero -- since the value in the checksum field is the negative value of the computed checksum over the header and payload. So there's no special case - when the transmitter computes the checksum, even if it turns out to be (positive) zero, when you complement it (get the negative value) to store it in the header, the correct value is written - which could be a negative zero (all one bits) if the computed checksum value was (positive) zero. This presumes that the 1's complement ALU on those old mainframes normalize to a positive zero result when doing addition. The only special cases here result from simulating 1's complement arithmetic on 2's complement CPUs. Louis Mamakos > > Joe > > > From touch at strayalpha.com Wed Dec 2 23:19:00 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch) Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2020 23:19:00 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP checksums (Was: UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <945C0DC2-4D3A-451B-BA71-5424EFBD3AEA@strayalpha.com> > On Dec 2, 2020, at 10:27 PM, Louis Mamakos wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 11:22 AM Joseph Touch wrote: >> >> You?d have to take that into account both in the coding and the checking. I.e., for UDP on that machine, after a sum computation, if the sum were zero you?d have to force it to be -0 when written to the header. >> >> Further, you?d need to adjust your expectations of a successful checksum calculation - rather than checking for -0 (per RFC791), you would check for 0. > > The UDP checksum field stores the 1's complement (negative value, logical NOT of all the bits) of the computed checksum of the UDP payload and header, with the checksum field set to zero. So when the UDP datagram is received, the UDP stack would do a checksum of the entire header, including the checksum field and payload, the result should be zero -- since the value in the checksum field is the negative value of the computed checksum over the header and payload. Agreed, but the RFC 791 instructions don?t check for zero. They check for -0, per RFC 1071: (3) To check a checksum, the 1's complement sum is computed over the same set of octets, including the checksum field. If the result is all 1 bits (-0 in 1's complement arithmetic), the check succeeds. > So there's no special case - when the transmitter computes the checksum, even if it turns out to be (positive) zero, when you complement it (get the negative value) to store it in the header, the correct value is written - which could be a negative zero (all one bits) if the computed checksum value was (positive) zero. This presumes that the 1's complement ALU on those old mainframes normalize to a positive zero result when doing addition. If complementing zero is normalized too, then you would never write all 1?s. Further, if the compare did internal subtraction and normalization, you?d never detect the difference between a ?no checksum? zero (all 0?s) and a ?zero checksum? zero (all 1?s). > The only special cases here result from simulating 1's complement arithmetic on 2's complement CPUs. See above. At a minimum, ones complement needs to check for valid sums differently . Joe From gnu at toad.com Thu Dec 3 01:09:10 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 01:09:10 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <20201203005054.252B618C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201203005054.252B618C09C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <19473.1606986550@hop.toad.com> Noel Chiappa wrote: > Shortly thereafter I did TFTP (which was simply a ripoff of > EFTP) to give us a way to get bits into and out of the machine. It was the > first serious application to use UDP (although not in the complex ways you > mention; we just wanted the simplest possible thing). Thank you for that work! I implemented TFTP for the boot ROMs for Sun in the 1980's, to support booting diskless workstations (after obtaining an IP address using RARP (RFC 903 of June 1984)). What struck me at the time was that TFTP was not a *stateless* protocol. Simple, but not stateless. One of the key features of Sun's Network File System (NFS) was that the server could crash, and if the client just kept resending the same unanswered packet, then when the server came back, they would resume communication without a hiccup. The server wasn't keeping any state about each client. TFTP was not that way; the server remembers what file each client is accessing, and what byte offset in the file was last sent. If the server crashes, that info is lost and the client has to re-start. But, most TFTP sessions finished within seconds, making a crash unlikely. NFS sessions could and did continue for weeks or months. Different design constraints. Simplicity is all in how you look at things... John From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Dec 3 08:05:21 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 11:05:21 -0500 Subject: [ih] recognizing Ginny Strazisar Message-ID: WIRED's Change Everything List: https://www.wired.co.uk/article/change-everything-smart-list-2021 vint From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Dec 3 08:25:41 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 11:25:41 -0500 Subject: [ih] recognizing Ginny Strazisar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool! Great picture too. On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > WIRED's Change Everything List: > https://www.wired.co.uk/article/change-everything-smart-list-2021 > > vint > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 3 12:36:44 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 12:36:44 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <7b2a6852-e814-fed2-4700-41ca77340348@3kitty.org> Thanks, Steve, I vaguely remember that there were some highly restricted experiments reluctantly authorized, but not anything widespread.?? E.g., an obvious experiment would have been to use uncontrolled mode for all the core gateways and other gateways attached to ARPANET, but AFAIK that was never authorized. Also, I don't remember ever knowing in detail exactly how "uncontrolled" packets were actually handled by the IMP code, or what was experienced in any experiments that were done.?? E.g., did uncontrolled packets "go to the front of the queue" bypassing normal traffic?? Did they interfere with other traffic, e.g., by preempting buffer space, or just get discarded when resources were unavailable?? In experiments, what were latencies, drop rates, et al like for UDP datagrams??? How did the ARPANET behave during such experiments??? Etc. /Jack On 12/2/20 4:33 PM, Stephen Casner wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >> There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the >> ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all >> of the reliability mechanisms. That could be used to deliver datagram >> Internet service. However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were >> extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, >> for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET. I >> recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET >> uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any >> permissions ever being granted. > We definitely did get permission to use this for packet voice > experiments between ISI and LL, for example. What I recall is that > initially we were required to arrange with BBN for a specific > experiment time between specific hosts and the uncontrolled mode (Type > 0, Subtype 3 -- BBN 1822 p. 3-17) would be enabled only for those > hosts. But later I believe our packet voice hosts were enabled all > the time. > > -- Steve From vint at google.com Thu Dec 3 12:41:06 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 15:41:06 -0500 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <7b2a6852-e814-fed2-4700-41ca77340348@3kitty.org> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> <7b2a6852-e814-fed2-4700-41ca77340348@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Bob Kahn might know, but my recollection is that they did not do "get a block" "got a block" since they were single packet transmissions. No retransmissions. less clear about where they went in a queue to next hop. v On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 3:37 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Thanks, Steve, I vaguely remember that there were some highly restricted > experiments reluctantly authorized, but not anything widespread. E.g., > an obvious experiment would have been to use uncontrolled mode for all > the core gateways and other gateways attached to ARPANET, but AFAIK that > was never authorized. > > Also, I don't remember ever knowing in detail exactly how "uncontrolled" > packets were actually handled by the IMP code, or what was experienced > in any experiments that were done. E.g., did uncontrolled packets "go > to the front of the queue" bypassing normal traffic? Did they interfere > with other traffic, e.g., by preempting buffer space, or just get > discarded when resources were unavailable? In experiments, what were > latencies, drop rates, et al like for UDP datagrams? How did the > ARPANET behave during such experiments? Etc. > > /Jack > > On 12/2/20 4:33 PM, Stephen Casner wrote: > > On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > > >> There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the > >> ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all > >> of the reliability mechanisms. That could be used to deliver datagram > >> Internet service. However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were > >> extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, > >> for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET. I > >> recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET > >> uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any > >> permissions ever being granted. > > We definitely did get permission to use this for packet voice > > experiments between ISI and LL, for example. What I recall is that > > initially we were required to arrange with BBN for a specific > > experiment time between specific hosts and the uncontrolled mode (Type > > 0, Subtype 3 -- BBN 1822 p. 3-17) would be enabled only for those > > hosts. But later I believe our packet voice hosts were enabled all > > the time. > > > > -- Steve > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From joly at punkcast.com Thu Dec 3 12:52:12 2020 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 15:52:12 -0500 Subject: [ih] recognizing Ginny Strazisar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those who are scroll impaired.. [image: image.png] [image: image.png] On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:25 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Cool! Great picture too. > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > WIRED's Change Everything List: > > https://www.wired.co.uk/article/change-everything-smart-list-2021 > > > > vint > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 3 13:01:11 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 21:01:11 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] ARPANET uncontrolled packets (was: UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: <7b2a6852-e814-fed2-4700-41ca77340348@3kitty.org> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> <7b2a6852-e814-fed2-4700-41ca77340348@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <1310577180.4159946.1607029271079@mail.yahoo.com> I was not an IMP programmer so I may have the details wrong, but as I recall an uncontrolled packet was treated just like any other packet, except:- if it ever arrived at an IMP that didn't have a buffer available it was ACKed but dropped, and- no RFNM was generated by the destination IMP.A host sending an uncontrolled packet could set the priority bit on or off; if priority was on the packet would go to the heads of queues just like any other packet.? It was retransmitted like a regular packet if it encountered errors on a circuit (to do otherwise would have been much more complicated). If there were an uncontrolled packet resident in an IMP buffer and then that IMP ran out of buffers I don't believe that the IMP had a way of finding and deleting the uncontrolled packet to free up a buffer.? As I recall, that was the principal fear in allowing uncontrolled packets. Cheers,Alex On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:37:16 PM EST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Thanks, Steve, I vaguely remember that there were some highly restricted experiments reluctantly authorized, but not anything widespread.?? E.g., an obvious experiment would have been to use uncontrolled mode for all the core gateways and other gateways attached to ARPANET, but AFAIK that was never authorized. Also, I don't remember ever knowing in detail exactly how "uncontrolled" packets were actually handled by the IMP code, or what was experienced in any experiments that were done.?? E.g., did uncontrolled packets "go to the front of the queue" bypassing normal traffic?? Did they interfere with other traffic, e.g., by preempting buffer space, or just get discarded when resources were unavailable?? In experiments, what were latencies, drop rates, et al like for UDP datagrams??? How did the ARPANET behave during such experiments??? Etc. /Jack On 12/2/20 4:33 PM, Stephen Casner wrote: > On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >> There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the >> ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all >> of the reliability mechanisms.? That could be used to deliver datagram >> Internet service.? However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were >> extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, >> for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET.? I >> recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET >> uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any >> permissions ever being granted. > We definitely did get permission to use this for packet voice > experiments between ISI and LL, for example.? What I recall is that > initially we were required to arrange with BBN for a specific > experiment time between specific hosts and the uncontrolled mode (Type > 0, Subtype 3 -- BBN 1822 p. 3-17) would be enabled only for those > hosts.? But later I believe our packet voice hosts were enabled all > the time. > >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Steve -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 3 13:56:23 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 13:56:23 -0800 Subject: [ih] ARPANET uncontrolled packets (was: UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: <1310577180.4159946.1607029271079@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20201129184556.AE26A18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1606932433.75295793@apps.rackspace.com> <366c287c-cb85-dda4-33ff-54635d54bdb4@3kitty.org> <7b2a6852-e814-fed2-4700-41ca77340348@3kitty.org> <1310577180.4159946.1607029271079@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5e4a44b9-e1bc-fb79-141e-aef4eecbd5c2@3kitty.org> Thanks Alex! I wasn't an IMP programmer either, but I remember there were quite a few people involved in evolving the ARPANET over the 80s timeframe, changing the internal mechanisms in response to issues that surfaced during operation.? So it's also possibly important to match the IMP behavior to the time of any Internet experiments in order to interpret any results.? That's probably very difficult to do decades after the fact. I do recall that the Internet had a somewhat disruptive reputation within the ARPANET engineering and operations staffs.?? One time in particular I remember is when the guy in charge of operations at the time (I can see his face but not his name...) came in to my office to ask what the Internet was doing to the ARPANET.? It was in the early 80s IIRC.? ARPANET behavior had suddenly changed, and they had traced the cause back to an unanticipated change in IP traffic. ? The Internet was screwing up the ARPANET. ? Since I was in charge of the Internet projects at BBN at the time, the ARPANET's problem became my problem. After investigating, we found that the change in behavior was caused by a new release of the (IIRC) Berkeley OS (I think this happened before the advent of Sun), which had recently been announced and was being brought online by lots of sites around the ARPANET.? That OS release had a new feature that "pinged" every gateway regularly, maintaining a snapshot of the current state of the Internet (which machines were up/down) that users could display on their screens. This new feature was enabled by default.? So as each computer OS was updated, it started continuously pinging all over the ARPANET. This wreaked havoc on the ARPANET, which was designed with an understanding that users generally operated in "sessions" which involved connecting to some remote host, using it for a while, disconnecting, and repeating that behavior with the next remote host.?? Telnet, FTP, and EMail all had such a traffic pattern, and the IMP code was tuned to behave well in such situations. The Berkeley OS' new feature involved sending one packet to a remote computer, receiving one packet, and then going on to another remote computer.? Continuously, at a rapid rate. That "single-packet connection" behavior was causing the IMPs to thrash, repeatedly and rapidly setting up and tearing down internal IMP-IMP connections and associated resources.? It was bad, and getting worse with every new computer that came online with the new OS release. We "fixed" the problem for the short term by convincing the OS group to issue an emergency new release, identical except with the "Internet snapshot" mechanism defaulted to off.?? The IMP crew also went off to figure out what to do about this latest disruption caused by the newgangled Internet crowd, but I don't know any detail about what they might have changed in the IMP code to avoid future problems. I think this kind of thing happened through the 80s, as Internet users disrupted traditional traffic patterns on the ARPANET.?? The details of changes in ARPANET internal mechanisms are probably, as the old saying goes, "documented in the code".?? There may be some clues in the various BBN reports from that timeframe too, if any historian is interested. The OS "pinging" was a perfectly legal use of the ARPANET, and didn't require "uncontrolled packets".? It was not subject to any requirement for permission.?? But such experiences must have reinforced the fear of allowing Internet users access to uncontrolled packets. /Jack Haverty On 12/3/20 1:01 PM, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: > I was not an IMP programmer so I may have the details wrong, but as I recall an uncontrolled packet was treated just like any other packet, except:- if it ever arrived at an IMP that didn't have a buffer available it was ACKed but dropped, and- no RFNM was generated by the destination IMP.A host sending an uncontrolled packet could set the priority bit on or off; if priority was on the packet would go to the heads of queues just like any other packet.? It was retransmitted like a regular packet if it encountered errors on a circuit (to do otherwise would have been much more complicated). > If there were an uncontrolled packet resident in an IMP buffer and then that IMP ran out of buffers I don't believe that the IMP had a way of finding and deleting the uncontrolled packet to free up a buffer.? As I recall, that was the principal fear in allowing uncontrolled packets. > Cheers,Alex > > On Thursday, December 3, 2020, 3:37:16 PM EST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Thanks, Steve, I vaguely remember that there were some highly restricted > experiments reluctantly authorized, but not anything widespread.?? E.g., > an obvious experiment would have been to use uncontrolled mode for all > the core gateways and other gateways attached to ARPANET, but AFAIK that > was never authorized. > > Also, I don't remember ever knowing in detail exactly how "uncontrolled" > packets were actually handled by the IMP code, or what was experienced > in any experiments that were done.?? E.g., did uncontrolled packets "go > to the front of the queue" bypassing normal traffic?? Did they interfere > with other traffic, e.g., by preempting buffer space, or just get > discarded when resources were unavailable?? In experiments, what were > latencies, drop rates, et al like for UDP datagrams??? How did the > ARPANET behave during such experiments??? Etc. > > /Jack > > On 12/2/20 4:33 PM, Stephen Casner wrote: >> On Wed, 2 Dec 2020, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >>> There was an "uncontrolled mode" of operation possible within the >>> ARPANET, which wouldallow a user computer to send packets bypassing all >>> of the reliability mechanisms.? That could be used to deliver datagram >>> Internet service.? However, the ARPANET managers (at DCA and BBN) were >>> extremely reluctant to permit hosts (e.g., gateways) to use that mode, >>> for fear that the uncontrolled traffic would crash the ARPANET.? I >>> recall being involved in several "discussions" about using ARPANET >>> uncontrolled mode for Internet experiments, but I don't remember any >>> permissions ever being granted. >> We definitely did get permission to use this for packet voice >> experiments between ISI and LL, for example.? What I recall is that >> initially we were required to arrange with BBN for a specific >> experiment time between specific hosts and the uncontrolled mode (Type >> 0, Subtype 3 -- BBN 1822 p. 3-17) would be enabled only for those >> hosts.? But later I believe our packet voice hosts were enabled all >> the time. >> >> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -- Steve From touch at strayalpha.com Thu Dec 3 14:47:47 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 14:47:47 -0800 Subject: [ih] recognizing Ginny Strazisar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <93410F4D-6500-4653-B7F8-AED5C14C1F53@strayalpha.com> Hi, all, As a reminder, the list does not support attachments. Joe (list admin) > On Dec 3, 2020, at 12:52 PM, Joly MacFie via Internet-history wrote: > > For those who are scroll impaired.. > > [image: image.png] > [image: image.png] > > On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:25 AM Steve Crocker via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> Cool! Great picture too. >> >> On Thu, Dec 3, 2020 at 11:05 AM vinton cerf via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> WIRED's Change Everything List: >>> https://www.wired.co.uk/article/change-everything-smart-list-2021 >>> >>> vint >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > > -- > -------------------------------------- > Joly MacFie +12185659365 > -------------------------------------- > - > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From gnu at toad.com Thu Dec 3 15:09:37 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2020 15:09:37 -0800 Subject: [ih] low latency traffic (was UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: References: <6ff008e5-4216-a02f-10b5-22434bf1b860@saloits.com> <96e68aae-1f98-b62a-626e-3100f55869cb@gmail.com> <1606874563.32657069@apps.rackspace.com> Message-ID: <25443.1607036977@hop.toad.com> Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > From what I can anecdotally see today, 40 years later, low-latency > datagram service on the Internet is not on anyone's radar. I helped a > friend investigate his attempts to use a gaming-type app over the > Internet last year, and our experiments discovered that packet loss > rate was surprisingly (to me) measured at 0%, latency was on average > in the hundreds of milliseconds, but had "tails" of data points out to > 30 seconds. The Internet "IP datagram service" today seems to be very > connection-oriented, delivering every packet but with noticeable very > long delays. I suspect this may be a cause of the anomalies we often > see today in TV interviews conducted using the Internet. Actually, there is a very active and somewhat successful effort (active queue management) to improve Internet latency. Given technological gains in semiconductor speed and power, and optical fibers, the Internet industry quickly learned that it was cheaper to buy higher bandwidth than it was to try to prioritize categories of traffic. This also helped with latency since faster networks tend to have lower latencies as well as higher overall thruput. It also offered significant "headroom" in deployed networks, which allowed the Internet to cope smoothly when e.g. the whole world suddenly started using 30-40% more realtime Internet traffic during the Covid shutdowns. A countervailing trend was caused by TCP's insistence on increasing its offered load until a packet is actually dropped, combined with the decreasing cost of RAM buffering throughout the network. It was inconceivable for 1980s routers to have more than a few packets' worth of buffering, so back then, packets dropped immediately after a flow was not sustainable. TCP's flow control was designed to respond to that signal. Now routers and even network interface chips can have many seconds' worth of RAM, so 10 to 20 years of designs caused packets to be queued rather than dropped. The resulting interaction is called Bufferbloat. It was publicized by Jim Gettys, who investigated it for One Laptop Per Child. It particularly happens at pinch points like wireless gateways, where high speed offered traffic backs up trying to get into a low speed link. The queue of pending traffic clobbers the latency of every packet that follows, and TCP persists in continuing to offer more traffic to top up the queue whenever it shrinks. This is easily visible when doing a large bulk upload from a home machine, such as a remote backup, simultaneous with a latency-sensitive download. This causes the downstream traffic to significantly stutter, because its acks suffer high latency behind the queue of upstream bulk packets. Significant work by Van Jacobson and Kathleen Nichols produced a "controlled delay" algorithm, CoDel, that could generally, reliably, and cheaply condition a router's queues without manual tuning. More years of work, largely by Dave Taht, produced, tested and deployed a Linux kernel implementation, fq_codel. That has been deployed into millions of end user access points via the OpenWRT ecosystem, and into servers via ordinary Linux distributions. The problem is not "solved", but it can usually be ameliorated by upgrading local networking routers or firmware. Interestingly, BitTorrent earlier went through a similar evolution and came up with a different amelioration. When it became popular, ISPs complained that Torrent users were eating all their bandwidth. Actually what was happening is that BT nodes were opening simultaneous TCP connections to many sites, and feeding all of them at whatever rate TCP would allow. Latency for everyone suffered at the in-ISP pinch points. Once BT designer Bram Cohen realized that TCP's non-delay-sensitive flow control was the issue, he replaced it with a UDP-based protocol that handled its own flow control in a latency-sensitive manner, bypassing TCP and its bugs entirely (without changing the user interface at all). ISPs rapidly stopped complaining, and BitTorrent is now accepted as a useful and non-disruptive network application. Historically, TCP has mostly been tuned only when its performance was intolerable, such as in 1986 on the 56k NSFnet before its late 1988 upgrade to T1 links, and again before the 1991 T3 upgrades. The pace of backbone bandwidth improvement since then has prevented much further tuning for decades. I believe the ultimate cure for high latency would be to fix endpoint TCP implementations to be latency-sensitive and not just packet-drop sensitive. But that effort has not succeeded so far, because the resulting implementations produce lower thruput when facing competing traffic from the old algorithm that floods its own traffic ahead of them in router queues. It's a "nice guys finish last" tragedy of the commons problem that causes major implementers to not switch to the "slower" algorithm. This is why bufferbloat has had to be fixed with CoDel in middleboxes, rather than in TCP at the endpoints, somewhat damaging the "dumb network core" principle that has allowed the Internet to scale. There were hints of this in the early Router Requirements RFCs that said routers forced to drop packets should punish end nodes that were not backing off their offered load, such as section 5.3.6 of RFC 1812 in 1995, but this was still very much a research topic back then (as it is today). See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bufferbloat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoDel John From touch at strayalpha.com Thu Dec 3 16:17:04 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2020 16:17:04 -0800 Subject: [ih] low latency traffic (was UDP Length Field?) In-Reply-To: <25443.1607036977@hop.toad.com> References: <6ff008e5-4216-a02f-10b5-22434bf1b860@saloits.com> <96e68aae-1f98-b62a-626e-3100f55869cb@gmail.com> <1606874563.32657069@apps.rackspace.com> <25443.1607036977@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 3, 2020, at 3:09 PM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> From what I can anecdotally see today, 40 years later, low-latency >> datagram service on the Internet is not on anyone's radar. I helped a >> friend investigate his attempts to use a gaming-type app over the >> Internet last year, and our experiments discovered that packet loss >> rate was surprisingly (to me) measured at 0%, latency was on average >> in the hundreds of milliseconds, but had "tails" of data points out to >> 30 seconds. The Internet "IP datagram service" today seems to be very >> connection-oriented, delivering every packet but with noticeable very >> long delays. I suspect this may be a cause of the anomalies we often >> see today in TV interviews conducted using the Internet. > > Actually, there is a very active and somewhat successful effort (active > queue management) to improve Internet latency. ... > Given technological gains in semiconductor speed and power, and optical > fibers, the Internet industry quickly learned that it was cheaper to buy > higher bandwidth than it was to try to prioritize categories of traffic. > This also helped with latency since faster networks tend to have lower > latencies as well as higher overall thruput. High speed doesn't affect propagation delay - it often increases it (fiber vs. twisted pair).. It does reduce transfer delay (time to transfer a large object). A bigger issue for TCP is high BW coupled with cheap RAM (the latter noted below). > ... > A countervailing trend was caused by TCP's insistence on increasing its > offered load until a packet is actually dropped, combined with the > decreasing cost of RAM buffering throughout the network. It was > inconceivable for 1980s routers to have more than a few packets' worth > of buffering, so back then, packets dropped immediately after a flow was > not sustainable. TCP's flow control was designed to respond to that > signal. It had two responses to drop - send again or backoff. The former is the wrong choice for contention-based loss; the latter is wrong for error-based loss. Either way you choose, you lose; it chose based on the assumptions of the time (that most losses were contention). > Now routers and even network interface chips can have many > seconds' worth of RAM, so 10 to 20 years of designs caused packets to be > queued rather than dropped. The resulting interaction is called > Bufferbloat. It was known long before that (mid 1980s) and was the basis for RED in 1993 or so, before it became called Bufferbloat in 2009. > Significant work by Van Jacobson and Kathleen Nichols produced a > "controlled delay" algorithm, CoDel, that could generally, reliably, and > cheaply condition a router's queues without manual tuning. There are others that have similar properties, including BLUE. > ... > I believe the ultimate cure for high latency would be to fix endpoint > TCP implementations to be latency-sensitive and not just packet-drop > sensitive. There have been several such TCP variants already developed, including Vegas and more notably the currently widely deployed CUBIC. > But that effort has not succeeded so far, because the > resulting implementations produce lower thruput when facing competing > traffic from the old algorithm that floods its own traffic ahead of them > in router queues. It's a "nice guys finish last" tragedy of the commons > problem that causes major implementers to not switch to the "slower" > algorithm. This is why bufferbloat has had to be fixed with CoDel in > middleboxes, rather than in TCP at the endpoints, somewhat damaging the > "dumb network core" principle that has allowed the Internet to scale. > There were hints of this in the early Router Requirements RFCs that said > routers forced to drop packets should punish end nodes that were not > backing off their offered load, such as section 5.3.6 of RFC 1812 in > 1995, but this was still very much a research topic back then (as it is > today). That?s basically what ECN is supposed to do, except rather than ?punish? it gives early info about drops before the buffer fills up. TCP support for ECN is widely deployed, though not always enabled by default as much as it could be. Joe From dan at lynch.com Fri Dec 4 16:22:15 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:22:15 -0800 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? References: <2EFC2400-5EC4-4448-A4DC-9E37C2750EB4@lynch.com> Message-ID: <8C69195C-8214-410C-BE2D-5747252FA7DB@lynch.com> I forgot to copy the list. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 Begin forwarded message: > From: Dan Lynch > Date: December 4, 2020 at 4:02:47 PM PST > To: Alex McKenzie > Subject: Re: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? > > ?Ha! I thought that the date of 1/1/1983 was the magic date. I was at ISI running a project under Vint and Bob?s control to get all the hosts on The Arpanet to run only TCP/IP and not NCP. Of course a few laggards were around, but the vast majority of sites switched. It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s in Texas. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Dec 2, 2020, at 7:06 AM, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ? Here's a reference: "Discoveries in Modern Science", James Trefil, Editor in Chief; Macmillan Reference USA, A part of Gale, Cengage Learning; 2014; Article titled "Internet" by Alexander A. McKenzie; pg 570. The reference says "ARPANET had already been shut down in 1990." >> Backstory: During the late 1980's the US Internet backbone had shifted from ARPANET to the NSFNET, and access to NSFNET was provided by regional networks and by ARPANET. New England was the last area of the US (lower 48) to have a regional network, but at the end of the 80's NEARNET was created by Harvard, MIT, and Boston University to fill this gap. As soon as NEARNET was operational, DARPA (Col. Mark Pullen) told the last few sites being supported by ARPANET to get their IP service from NEARNET, and as soon as that was done ARPANET was terminated. >> Cheers,Alex >> >> On Wednesday, December 2, 2020, 9:21:00 AM EST, Steve Crocker wrote: >> >> Mark Pullen might have some info re the last days of the Arpanet. I've cc'd him on this email. >> Steve >> >> On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 9:18 AM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: >> >> Unfortunately the reference Da in April 1998ve provides doesn't say that the ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990. What it does say is "DARPA took the first steps toward dismantling ARPANET in April 1988, with the announced intention of completing the job within 3 years." >> Alex >> >> On Tuesday, December 1, 2020, 9:15:24 PM EST, dave walden via Internet-history wrote: >> >> I believe Alex McKenizie and I also say it in the following, if this is >> a good enough reference for the citation you want: >> >> ?The ARPANET, the Defense Data Network, and the Internet?, Encyclopedia >> of Telecommunications, Marcel Dekker, Inc., Volume 1, pp. 341-376. I can >> perhaps find a specific page number. >> >> >>>> On 12/1/2020 8:56 PM, Dan York via Internet-history wrote: >>> Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? >>> >>> As I mentioned some time back, I?ve been doing some editing of Wikipedia pages as a personal project during these pandemic days, and on both of these pages: >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet#History >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Internet >>> >>> There is the statement: >>> >>> "The ARPANET was decommissioned in 1990.? >>> >>> This was flagged by another editor as ?citation needed?. In searching around, I found many articles that made a reference to the ARPANET being decommissioned in 1990 (either in February or July depending upon the article), but nothing I would call ?definitive? (or in Wikipedia lingo a ?reliable source?). Most articles seem to be repeating info that probably came from other articles! But nothing ?official? that states that ARPANET ended in 1990. >>> >>> I searched in our own (ISOC) history docs. I found an ICANNWiki page that similarly states at the end that the ARPANET was shut down in 1990 but again provides no source. I searched RFCs. I searched for early NSFNet documents that might mention it. I?ve found many articles (including from people on this list) about the birth and early years of the ARPANET, but haven?t yet found anything about its ending. >>> >>> Any suggestions or pointers? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Dan >>> >>> P.S. For the purpose of removing the ?citation needed? flag, I added a reference on one of those links to a 2019 media article that mentioned the ARPANET ending in 1990, but that?s not a good reference and I?d like to replace it with something more definitive. >>> >>> -- >>> Dan York, Director, Web Strategy / Project Leader, Open Standards Everywhere / Internet Society >>> york at isoc.org / +1-603-439-0024 / @danyork >>> >>> >>> [cid:image001.png at 01D5D03B.DF736FF0] >>> internetsociety.org | @internetsociety >>> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Dec 4 16:26:01 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:26:01 -0800 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <8C69195C-8214-410C-BE2D-5747252FA7DB@lynch.com> References: <2EFC2400-5EC4-4448-A4DC-9E37C2750EB4@lynch.com> <8C69195C-8214-410C-BE2D-5747252FA7DB@lynch.com> Message-ID: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s in Texas. A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dan at lynch.com Fri Dec 4 16:31:14 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2020 16:31:14 -0800 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> References: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> I only use real data?? Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s in Texas. > > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net From agmalis at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 08:50:06 2020 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 11:50:06 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> References: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> Message-ID: Dan, I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all hosts. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I only use real data?? > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s > in Texas. > > > > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich > opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. > > > > d/ > > > > -- > > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > bbiw.net > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Sat Dec 5 09:08:45 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 17:08:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> Message-ID: <1521781038.4764550.1607188125735@mail.yahoo.com> In an article titled "Internet" in "Discoveries in Modern Science" (for which I gave the full reference in an earlier email) I wrote (pg 569) "DCA declared that all ARPANET Hosts must convert to TCP no later than January 1, 1983.? There were some problems, but by June 1983 the conversion was complete." Cheers,Alex On Saturday, December 5, 2020, 11:50:42 AM EST, Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history wrote: Dan, I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all hosts. Cheers, Andy On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I only use real data?? > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s > in Texas. > > > > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich > opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. > > > > d/ > > > > -- > > Dave Crocker > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > bbiw.net > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From craig at tereschau.net Sat Dec 5 09:08:45 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 10:08:45 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> Message-ID: My understanding is that by 1983 there were also free standing networks using ARPANET technology (e.g. in various parts of the military) and they kept using NCP for some time after ARPANET cut over. Indeed, given it is only 37 years later, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an NCP link somewhere in the world :-). Craig On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 9:50 AM Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Dan, > > I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I > wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop > NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official > list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent > New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I > fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped > flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of > how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and > I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't > recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all > hosts. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > I only use real data?? > > > > Dan > > > > Cell 650-776-7313 > > > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > > > > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > > >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late > 80s > > in Texas. > > > > > > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich > > opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. > > > > > > d/ > > > > > > -- > > > Dave Crocker > > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > > bbiw.net > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From agmalis at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 09:10:20 2020 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 12:10:20 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <1521781038.4764550.1607188125735@mail.yahoo.com> References: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> <1521781038.4764550.1607188125735@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alex, Thanks for refreshing my memory! Cheers, Andy On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 12:09 PM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > In an article titled "Internet" in "Discoveries in Modern Science" (for > which I gave the full reference in an earlier email) I wrote (pg 569) "DCA > declared that all ARPANET Hosts must convert to TCP no later than January > 1, 1983. There were some problems, but by June 1983 the conversion was > complete." > Cheers,Alex > > On Saturday, December 5, 2020, 11:50:42 AM EST, Andrew G. Malis via > Internet-history wrote: > > Dan, > > I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I > wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop > NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official > list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent > New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I > fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped > flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of > how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and > I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't > recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all > hosts. > > Cheers, > Andy > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > I only use real data?? > > > > Dan > > > > Cell 650-776-7313 > > > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > > > > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > > >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late > 80s > > in Texas. > > > > > > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich > > opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. > > > > > > d/ > > > > > > -- > > > Dave Crocker > > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > > bbiw.net > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 5 09:18:02 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 12:18:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?UDP_Length_Field=3F?= Message-ID: <20201205171802.484D018C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: "David P. Reed" > I assume the IEN's are available filed away in historical archives, > perhaps those maintained at the "Postel Center" Joe Touch was building? Yes, at: https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien-index.html Most of them are original ASCII (from the ISI repository), but a few are PDF scans of hardcopies, when the original machine-readable versions couldn't be located. (Thanks to Chris? ??, a computing historian, I think at UT, for providing the scans; sadly, I seem to recall that we lost her a couple of years ago.) I typed in #19 from a hard-copy I appened to have; I think the original it was Press file, produced with Bravo! >From a quick look, they are all there, except #33, "Internet Meeting Notes - 1&2 May 1978", which would be valuable to have; if anyone has it, please sing out! Noel From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 10:09:58 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 13:09:58 -0500 Subject: [ih] sad news Message-ID: I had a call this morning from the NY Times asking for background on Norm Abramson who apparently passed away very recently. vint From vgcerf at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 10:16:46 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 13:16:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: <8b60b8a2-54f6-925d-f0a8-3eec25f6397b@dcrocker.net> <9EE16928-3A45-4D54-A1EC-D7DC9A47D469@lynch.com> Message-ID: NSA had an NCP* (modified NCP) for quite a while although they were also involved during the evolution of the TCP/IP suite. v On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 12:09 PM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > My understanding is that by 1983 there were also free standing networks > using ARPANET technology (e.g. in various parts of the military) and they > kept using NCP for some time after ARPANET cut over. Indeed, given it is > only 37 years later, I wouldn't be surprised if there's an NCP link > somewhere in the world :-). > > Craig > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 9:50 AM Andrew G. Malis via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > Dan, > > > > I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. > I > > wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to > drop > > NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an > official > > list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I > spent > > New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I > > fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped > > flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of > > how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, > and > > I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't > > recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all > > hosts. > > > > Cheers, > > Andy > > > > > > On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > > > I only use real data?? > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > Cell 650-776-7313 > > > > > > > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > > > > > > > > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > > > >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late > > 80s > > > in Texas. > > > > > > > > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich > > > opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. > > > > > > > > d/ > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Dave Crocker > > > > Brandenburg InternetWorking > > > > bbiw.net > > > > > > -- > > > Internet-history mailing list > > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > mailing lists. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From steve at shinkuro.com Sat Dec 5 10:20:48 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 13:20:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: [Including Bob Metcalfe just to be sure.] Aww. Sadness. I was working in the ARPA office in the early 1970s. I hadn't paid close attention to the Alohanet but I was aware of it. Norm visited the office and explained it to me. I thought it was extremely cool to have all the terminals send whenever they wanted and to retransmit if the central node didn't acknowledge. His math showed if the total traffic offered was less than 1/2e of the channel's capacity, the retransmissions would subside instead of exploding. I remember marveling on the boldness of not having any explicit form of multiplexor and offered a McCluhanesque, "the medium is the multiplexor." I took home a copy of an AFIPS proceeding that had their paper in it. Bob Metcalfe stayed overnight sometime after that. I showed him the paper and commented he might find it interesting. He took the concept back to PARC, put it on coax cable, called it Ethernet, and the rest is history. Steve On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 1:10 PM vinton cerf wrote: > I had a call this morning from the NY Times asking for background on Norm > Abramson who apparently passed away very recently. > > vint > > From galmes at tamu.edu Sat Dec 5 10:47:37 2020 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 13:47:37 -0500 Subject: [ih] sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, An amazing anecdote -- thanks for it. Norm seems to have contributed with both a practical system and good mathematical analysis of it. In addition, he had a whimsical side. At some point later in the 1970s, he visited the Computer Science department at Carnegie-Mellon and gave a talk on Alohanet etc. During informal conversation, he expressed an interest in self-organizing systems. He posited that you could build very small integrated devices that would include a processor/memory chip, a photovoltaic cell, and a rudimentary radio transceiver. He mused on putting a dozen or so of them in a paper sack, shining a flashlight into it, and shaking it. The phrase "shake and bake computing" came up in the conversation -- I don't recall whether from Norm or from one of the grad students. -- Guy On 12/5/20 1:20 PM, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > [Including Bob Metcalfe just to be sure.] > > Aww. Sadness. I was working in the ARPA office in the early 1970s. I > hadn't paid close attention to the Alohanet but I was aware of it. Norm > visited the office and explained it to me. I thought it was extremely cool > to have all the terminals send whenever they wanted and to retransmit if > the central node didn't acknowledge. His math showed if the total traffic > offered was less than 1/2e of the channel's capacity, the retransmissions > would subside instead of exploding. I remember marveling on the boldness > of not having any explicit form of multiplexor and offered a > McCluhanesque, "the medium is the multiplexor." > > I took home a copy of an AFIPS proceeding that had their paper in it. Bob > Metcalfe stayed overnight sometime after that. I showed him the paper and > commented he might find it interesting. He took the concept back to PARC, > put it on coax cable, called it Ethernet, and the rest is history. > > Steve > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 1:10 PM vinton cerf wrote: > >> I had a call this morning from the NY Times asking for background on Norm >> Abramson who apparently passed away very recently. >> >> vint >> >> From vint at google.com Sat Dec 5 11:03:16 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 14:03:16 -0500 Subject: [ih] sad news In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://www.hawaii.edu/news/2020/12/04/in-memoriam-norman-abramson/ bob kahn found this reference v On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 1:47 PM Guy Almes via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Steve, > An amazing anecdote -- thanks for it. > Norm seems to have contributed with both a practical system and good > mathematical analysis of it. > In addition, he had a whimsical side. At some point later in the > 1970s, he visited the Computer Science department at Carnegie-Mellon and > gave a talk on Alohanet etc. During informal conversation, he expressed > an interest in self-organizing systems. He posited that you could build > very small integrated devices that would include a processor/memory > chip, a photovoltaic cell, and a rudimentary radio transceiver. He > mused on putting a dozen or so of them in a paper sack, shining a > flashlight into it, and shaking it. The phrase "shake and bake > computing" came up in the conversation -- I don't recall whether from > Norm or from one of the grad students. > > -- Guy > > On 12/5/20 1:20 PM, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > > [Including Bob Metcalfe just to be sure.] > > > > Aww. Sadness. I was working in the ARPA office in the early 1970s. I > > hadn't paid close attention to the Alohanet but I was aware of it. Norm > > visited the office and explained it to me. I thought it was extremely > cool > > to have all the terminals send whenever they wanted and to retransmit if > > the central node didn't acknowledge. His math showed if the total > traffic > > offered was less than 1/2e of the channel's capacity, the retransmissions > > would subside instead of exploding. I remember marveling on the boldness > > of not having any explicit form of multiplexor and offered a > > McCluhanesque, "the medium is the multiplexor." > > > > I took home a copy of an AFIPS proceeding that had their paper in it. > Bob > > Metcalfe stayed overnight sometime after that. I showed him the paper > and > > commented he might find it interesting. He took the concept back to > PARC, > > put it on coax cable, called it Ethernet, and the rest is history. > > > > Steve > > > > > > On Sat, Dec 5, 2020 at 1:10 PM vinton cerf wrote: > > > >> I had a call this morning from the NY Times asking for background on > Norm > >> Abramson who apparently passed away very recently. > >> > >> vint > >> > >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 5 12:18:09 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 15:18:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?UDP_Length_Field=3F?= Message-ID: <20201205201809.7F40318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > (Thanks to Chris? ??, a computing historian, I think at UT, for > providing the scans; sadly, I seem to recall that we lost her a couple > of years ago.) Chris Edmondson; my memory finally coughed up her name. (It's really scary - BITD I used to remember many dozens of phone numbers, including area codes! Now...) We lost her in May, 2017, too young (65). > From a quick look, they are all there, except #33, "Internet Meeting > Notes - 1&2 May 1978" Apparently I can't read any more, either: also #7, "X.25 Specification" (not a loss, I'm sure that's elsewhere), and #8, "Gateway Experiments in Connection with the Packet Satellite Project" (might be interesting, but not as important as the #33). Noel From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Sat Dec 5 13:17:54 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 10:17:54 +1300 Subject: [ih] Missing IENs [Re: UDP Length Field?] In-Reply-To: <20201205201809.7F40318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201205201809.7F40318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 06-Dec-20 09:18, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: ... > Apparently I can't read any more, either: also #7, "X.25 Specification" (not a > loss, I'm sure that's elsewhere), In many variants, but it might be interesting as a snapshot. There is an apparently corrupt pdf file at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien7.pdf > and #8, "Gateway Experiments in Connection > with the Packet Satellite Project" (might be interesting, but not as important > as the #33). That is presumably the same as this reference that Google dredged up: KIRSTEIN PT (1976B) Gateway Experiments in Connection with the Packet Satellite Project, Indra Note 574, Department of Statistics and Computer Science, UCL so if there is a Kirstein archive at UCL it might be there. Brian From touch at strayalpha.com Sat Dec 5 14:43:30 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2020 14:43:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] Missing IENs [Re: UDP Length Field?] In-Reply-To: References: <20201205201809.7F40318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have a copy of the PDF that isn?t corrupt; I?ll let the IETF know and have it fixed. 8 is missing from my set as well, but there was a note that is nearly as old as the others indicating so. Joe > On Dec 5, 2020, at 1:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > On 06-Dec-20 09:18, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > ... >> Apparently I can't read any more, either: also #7, "X.25 Specification" (not a >> loss, I'm sure that's elsewhere), > > In many variants, but it might be interesting as a snapshot. > There is an apparently corrupt pdf file at https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien7.pdf > >> and #8, "Gateway Experiments in Connection >> with the Packet Satellite Project" (might be interesting, but not as important >> as the #33). > > That is presumably the same as this reference that Google dredged up: > > KIRSTEIN PT (1976B) Gateway Experiments in Connection with the > Packet Satellite Project, Indra Note 574, Department of > Statistics and Computer Science, UCL > > so if there is a Kirstein archive at UCL it might be there. > > Brian > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From dan at lynch.com Sun Dec 6 07:52:38 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 07:52:38 -0800 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> Andy, I knew there were exceptional cases and that BBN was the watchdog. I had heard a rumor that many military sites were running classified applications on NCP and would probably never be able to use TCP. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Dec 5, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > ? > Dan, > > I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all hosts. > > Cheers, > Andy > > >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> I only use real data?? >> >> Dan >> >> Cell 650-776-7313 >> >> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> > >> > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s in Texas. >> > >> > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. >> > >> > d/ >> > >> > -- >> > Dave Crocker >> > Brandenburg InternetWorking >> > bbiw.net >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 6 08:42:09 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 16:42:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> References: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> Message-ID: <1812947717.4987610.1607272929578@mail.yahoo.com> Dan, I have no direct knowledge, but I do no that at the time of the NCP -> TCP cutover there were only a couple of ARPANET sites doing classified work, and their attachment was via PLI's (Private Line Interface) built by BBN which incorporated NSA approved bit-stream encryption devices. The PLIs packetized the encrypted bit stream and appended/deleted IMP headers on the packets.? The classified hosts could just think of the ARPANET as a wire (a "private line").? After the cutover to TCP the PLIs were replaced by IPLIs (Internet Private Line Interface). There were various ARPANET clones delivered to government agencies.? The Hosts on those networks may have never switched to TCP, but I don't know whether they even used NCP; there was little or no unclassified information available about the use of those networks. Alex On Sunday, December 6, 2020, 10:53:00 AM EST, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: Andy, I knew there were exceptional cases and that BBN was the watchdog. I had heard a rumor that many military sites were running classified applications on NCP and would probably never be able to use TCP. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Dec 5, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: > > ? > Dan, > > I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all hosts. > > Cheers, > Andy > > >> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> I only use real data?? >> >> Dan >> >> Cell 650-776-7313 >> >> > On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> > >> > ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> >> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s in Texas. >> > >> > A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. >> > >> > d/ >> > >> > -- >> > Dave Crocker >> > Brandenburg InternetWorking >> > bbiw.net >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From karl at cavebear.com Sun Dec 6 14:13:51 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 14:13:51 -0800 Subject: [ih] Fwd: Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> References: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> Message-ID: <759c100c-5bca-6a25-6ff4-52f1d6d88fe9@cavebear.com> Unfortunately we've never been given clarification about how much we can say, even though the work is more than 40 years old. (Those three letter agencies in Maryland tend to like to err (and oh, how much) on the side of over-protection, even after decades and decades have passed.) This much I can say: we had operational multi-level secure flows via TCP a few years before the NCP-TCP cut over. Yes this was before things regarding TCP and IP had been fully developed, and there weren't a lot of implementations out there. (Although I do remember with a bit of amusement a Univ of Illinois approach to TCP on Unix that swapped between a "small deamon" and "large deamon" on a memory starved PDP-11.) If I remember correctly each TCP stream was protected by its own distinct key.?? But the protection was applied to packet contents, not to the contents of the TCP stream.? Our prototype work used the then relatively new DES.? Since we were applying it to network packets underneath TCP we had to deal with packet loss, duplication, and re-ordering.? So we came up with various ways of using DES (such as various kinds of feedback chaining) and questions that seemed to really irk the gov't folks - who were decidedly, but understandably, non responsive about the mathematics.) (You would not be going awry if words like "IPSEC", "VLAN", "TOR" pop into your heads.) Later on there was the normal panoply of tempest boxes (not made by BBN) with lots and lots of wire mesh foam at every possible RF leakage point. I helped on the overall design; Dave Kaufman did much of the heavy lifting on that.? I designed the security kernel (that was subject to early formal verification) and led the implementation group.? (We started with UCLA Data Secure Unix.? It's performance was so slow that you could type "date" on the console, go to lunch, and it would just be finishing printing the result when you got back.? I think the only code we retained was a tiny bit of recursive assembly code that expanded terminal output [including tab expansion, hence the recursion].) (There was a bit of an amusing story of how we did the actual transfer of the Data Secure Unix source code from UCLA to SDC - we ended up getting copies of the entire disk drives at UCLA.? So we also got all of Jerry Popek and Lennie Kleinrock's work (including drafts) and lots of other stuff that we carefully avoided looking at.) I heard that our system of secure TCP was in actual day-to-day use by the US State Department for a rather long time. I was part of a team that designed and built this stuff at SDC in the mid-to-late 1970's.? Other team members were Val Schore, John Scheid, Jan Garwick (he was present only at the beginning), Marv Schaeffer, Gerry Cole, David Kaufman, Frank Heinrich, Dave Golber, Hillary (can't remember her last name, but she went on with Marv to develop the Orange book of computer security), Jerry Simon, Carl Switzky (sp), Josie Althaus.?? Carl Sunshine, Whit Diffie (before public-key), and Vint were also involved.? We also got some help from folks (who later formed Interactive Systems) down the street at RAND. I can't remember whether it was this project or another, but we had significant linkage to RSRE in Malvern in the UK.? (Such a pretty train station - and we played croquette most days after lunch.) We were designing a capability based computer - we were strongly influenced by the Plessey designs - to support secure network systems.? That work also involved John Rushby and Peter Neumann at SRI.? (It only took 30 years, but eventually I convinced Peter N. that the only way to build a practical capability system was with short term-capabilities that could be garbage collected rather than permanent capabilities.)? It was on this project where I got to do a bit of work with Donald Davies. Dave Kaufman and I pounded our heads trying to figure out how to extend capability architectures onto the network.? Because we were influenced by Farber's DCS we did not want to draw a strong distinction between an individual computer with pieces tied together via an internal bus and a distributed computer where the "buss" was formed out of network links.? (It's too bad public key had not been invented yet.) === We did a lot of really good stuff back then - In a sense we invented the encrypted VLAN and various aspects of key distribution and management, including what are now called "trusted platform modules".? We also made a lot of progress on encapsulated systems, security kernels, formalized security models, and verification. ? But it was all locked up behind national security classification walls. It has been rather frustrating for me to watch, over the intervening decades, how our work was slowly re-invented.? I've often wondered whether we might have been better served and the security of our our present more advanced had our work been visible to the public. === (Regarding that large/small deamon code - I remember once visiting a Defense Communications A*** facility in Reston.? I needed to put some fresh software onto one of the PDP-11s running that Univ of Illinois code.? But the operators in Champaign Urbana were not forthcoming about giving me the needed privileges - so [with permission of the DCA people] I said - "Hey guys, you are 700 miles away.? I'm standing next to the machine and have my hands on its console and switches.? I win."? So I rebooted it into single user mode, did my work, rebooted back to normal operation, and said "TTFN" on my way out.) ??? --karl-- On 12/6/20 7:52 AM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > Andy, I knew there were exceptional cases and that BBN was the watchdog. I had heard a rumor that many military sites were running classified applications on NCP and would probably never be able to use TCP. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Dec 5, 2020, at 8:50 AM, Andrew G. Malis wrote: >> >> ? >> Dan, >> >> I managed the NCP->TCP transition on the ARPANET that started on 1/1/83. I wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition by adding a filter to drop NCP packets, which was managed on a host-by-host basis. We had an official list from DARPA of hosts that were approved to continue using NCP. I spent New Year's Day in the NOC, turning off NCP for unapproved hosts, and I fielded calls from unhappy site managers as their NCP traffic stopped flowing (as they had been warned many times). I told them the process of how to contact DARPA to at least temporarily get on the approved list, and I turned the filters off and back on as directed by DARPA. Sadly, I don't recall when we finished the process of turning on the NCP filter for all hosts. >> >> Cheers, >> Andy >> >> >>> On Fri, Dec 4, 2020 at 7:31 PM Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >>> I only use real data?? >>> >>> Dan >>> >>> Cell 650-776-7313 >>> >>>> On Dec 4, 2020, at 4:26 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: >>>> >>>> ?On 12/4/2020 4:22 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> It amazes me to hear there were sites still running NCP in the late 80s in Texas. >>>> A reference like that, about Texas, affords such a target-rich opportunity, I'm overwhelmed. >>>> >>>> d/ >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Dave Crocker >>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>>> bbiw.net >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From sghuter at nsrc.org Sun Dec 6 14:30:46 2020 From: sghuter at nsrc.org (Steven G. Huter) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 14:30:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> References: <9D39A7BC-F821-40BF-8A57-38415D5C4140@isoc.org> Message-ID: > Question for this group? does anyone know of a source (preferably online) that says something definitive about the decommissioning of the ARPANET in 1990? Hello Dan Have you reviewed the report released last month entitled: "The Creation and Administration of Unique Identifiers, 1967-2017" https://www.icann.org/en/system/files/files/creation-administration-unique-identifiers-1967-2017-18nov20-en.pdf The list of sources cited is extensive and may have some helpful information for you about Arpanet history. Steve Huter From sob at sobco.com Sun Dec 6 16:22:58 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 19:22:58 -0500 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <759c100c-5bca-6a25-6ff4-52f1d6d88fe9@cavebear.com> References: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> <759c100c-5bca-6a25-6ff4-52f1d6d88fe9@cavebear.com> Message-ID: <6CC67C66-2B45-4D49-971A-6896F014C8E4@sobco.com> > On Dec 6, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > > > Hillary (can't remember her last name, but she went on with Marv to develop the Orange book of computer security) Hilaire Orman? Scott From karl at cavebear.com Sun Dec 6 17:24:47 2020 From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 17:24:47 -0800 Subject: [ih] Question - reference source for formal decommissioning of ARPANET in 1990? In-Reply-To: <6CC67C66-2B45-4D49-971A-6896F014C8E4@sobco.com> References: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> <759c100c-5bca-6a25-6ff4-52f1d6d88fe9@cavebear.com> <6CC67C66-2B45-4D49-971A-6896F014C8E4@sobco.com> Message-ID: I think that is correct. I wish I had gotten to know several of those people better or maintained contact. For instance, Jan Garwick had stories of tracking the bits of oil drilling in Norway during WW-II in which he inserted acid vials into the drill pipes and then calculated (on mechanical or electrical-relay based computers) where the drill bit was based on the lines etched into those vials by the acid. Apart from the technology there was another difficulty he ran into - which was explaining to the German soldiers why he was carrying around thick notebooks filled with seemed to be rather random looking numbers that suggested encryption - and that he was perhaps a spy. --karl-- On 12/6/20 4:22 PM, Scott O. Bradner wrote: > > >> On Dec 6, 2020, at 5:13 PM, Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: >> > >> >> Hillary (can't remember her last name, but she went on with Marv to develop the Orange book of computer security) > > Hilaire Orman? > > Scott > From touch at strayalpha.com Sun Dec 6 21:19:02 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2020 21:19:02 -0800 Subject: [ih] UDP Length Field? In-Reply-To: <20201205171802.484D018C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201205171802.484D018C0B4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi, all, Some additional info: > On Dec 5, 2020, at 9:18 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > >> From: "David P. Reed" > > >> I assume the IEN's are available filed away in historical archives, >> perhaps those maintained at the "Postel Center" Joe Touch was building? The center site hasn?t been maintained since I left ISI over 3 yrs ago; it?s actually fallen offline multiple times. That?s the main motivation for moving this list to the ISOC. > Yes, at: > > https://www.rfc-editor.org/ien/ien-index.html > > Most of them are original ASCII (from the ISI repository), They weren?t ?original? ASCII - that was long gone. The files were OCI of the PDF scans with manual final checking done at ISI. Chris Edmonson-Yurkanan did help oversee that process when she was a Postel Center visiting scholar, which was performed by ISI staff and student interns. Joe From gnu at toad.com Mon Dec 7 02:54:14 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Mon, 07 Dec 2020 02:54:14 -0800 Subject: [ih] Formerly classified secure NCP and TCP systems In-Reply-To: <759c100c-5bca-6a25-6ff4-52f1d6d88fe9@cavebear.com> References: <8D410925-909C-4217-9DC9-D350CEAA92D4@lynch.com> <759c100c-5bca-6a25-6ff4-52f1d6d88fe9@cavebear.com> Message-ID: <26596.1607338454@hop.toad.com> Karl Auerbach via Internet-history wrote: > Unfortunately we've never been given clarification about how much we can say, even though the work is more than 40 years old. (Those three letter agencies in Maryland tend to like to err (and oh, how much) on the side of over-protection, even after decades and decades have passed.) > This much I can say: we had operational multi-level secure flows via TCP a few years before the NCP-TCP cut over. Let me introduce you to a website: muckrock.com. They exist to help you file Freedom of Information requests (FOIA requests). They digitize and track all the answer letters and responses, and post them publicly. The FOIA does not apply to "properly classified" records; that is one of the exemptions in it. But the structure of the statute is that if any member of the public asks for a record (such as a report or a design document), the agency has to decide, NOW, whether it is properly classified and whether it remains classified. Almost everything is automatically declassified 25 years after its publication. That's why historians can get all sorts of WW2 and Vietnam War records today. Unfortunately crypto-related stuff is exempt from that 25-year limit -- so it's not AUTOMATICALLY declassified -- but if you ask about particular documents, with a FOIA request, the agency still is required to decide: is this still secret now? How secret? Is only this paragraph secret, while the rest of the document can be released? Insiders who merely happen to know what the NAME of an interesting classified program was, 40 years ago, can file a request for "all records of Project XYZ done at the Aberdeen Kinetic Mortuary between 1965 and 1986" and you will get some kind of response. If you add more details, like the names of personnel involved, or the name of the beltway bandit who did some of the work and who worked on it there, or what overall effort it was part of (e.g. Army logistics? State Dept. secure communications?), or copies of any public mentions of the program or the contracts, or the names or authors of any reports on the program (classified or not), that can help the FOIA people in the agency find what you want in the government's vast attics of records. Usually because of agency sloth, or poor description by the requester of where the records might be, the first response is "never heard of that" or "we can't provide any of that". But if you appeal that response (by merely writing a letter), then it gets looked at by somebody with half a brain, and often results in more (or more than zero) pages of documents actually coming out. In extreme cases it's possible to successfully sue them for failing to disclose records that you know they have. And the beauty of this, for former insiders, is that anything that comes out in the FOIA process is by definition declassified, and you or anyone can publish, refer to, and spread it around at will. It's your one-stop shop for getting useful old stuff (possibly) declassified if the agency agrees that its classification has outlived its usefulness. Don't expect fast results. The agencies get weeks to respond, and they usually violate their deadlines, and then even when they respond, you usually have to appeal, etc, etc, etc. Expect it to take years to get actual useful documents. But you can fire off half a dozen of these requests, for different things, in different agencies if you like, with just a day or two's work. And then you can handle the responses with a few hours here and there, as they trickle in over the months. With luck, you will get some gold released, and then the history of secure communications (or government malfeasance, or meritorious conduct, or whatever you're looking for) can be revised with some actual formerly secret information. John PS: It's much harder for an outsider to know what to ask for. If I sent in a request for "multi-level secure flows carried via TCP before 1991" to three or four agencies, I doubt I would get anything useful. (I sent in a similar request years ago for "sensor fusion" records, for example, and got back nothing but a shrug.) But you insiders will know and can explain more about where these bodies are buried, like by asking for documents related to the Frobnitz Secure Packet Puncher developed by BandiCorp and deployed at six secure Minute-man sites in North Windswept Prarie. FOIA does not require agencies to write new documents, nor to summarize; all you can get is existing documents, so if you can't describe 'em, or at least describe how they might be indexed or in what department's file cabinet they might be found, you probably won't get 'em. From joly at punkcast.com Tue Dec 8 04:01:18 2020 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2020 07:01:18 -0500 Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?WEBCAST_TODAY_=E2=80=93_NSFNET_35th_Anniversary_C?= =?utf-8?q?elebratory_Event?= Message-ID: The NSFNET is, of course, the missing link between the ARPANET and the Internet as we know it today, and perhaps not so much celebrated as it could be. Today's session should give insight on some of the vital decisions that forged the program, and recognition of the people that made them, ISOC Live posted: "Today, Tuesday 8 December 2020, at 1pm-2:45pm EST (18:00-19:45 UTC) the Internet Society and Internet2 present a NSFNET 35th Anniversary Celebratory Virtual Event. From 1985-1995 the National Science Foundation Network (NSFNET) was a pivotal United States" [image: livestream] Today, *Tuesday 8 December 2020*, at *1pm-2:45pm EST* (18:00-19:45 UTC) the *Internet Society * and *Internet2 * present a *NSFNET 35th Anniversary Celebratory Virtual Event *. >From 1985-1995 the National Science Foundation Network (NSFNET) was a pivotal United States program that laid the foundation of the global Internet. Luminaries and colleagues from research and education will reflect on NSFNET?s important networking contributions and share their outlook for the future. *SPEAKERS* *Ana Hunsinger*, Vice President, Community Engagement, Internet2 *Vint Cerf*, Chief Internet Evangelist, Google *Al Gore*, former Vice President, USA *Dennis Jennings*, former First Program Director for Networking, NSF *Howard Pfeffer*, President and CEO, Internet2 *Andrew Sullivan*, President and CEO, Internet Society *Margaret Martonosi*, Assistant Director for Computer and Information Science and Engineering (CISE), NSF *LIVESTREAM http://livestream.com/internetsociety/nsfnet35 * *AGENDA https://www.internetsociety.org/events/nsfnet-35th-anniversary-celebratory-virtual-event/agenda/ * *TWITTER #NSFNET @Internet2 @internetsociety @vgcerf @algore Dennis Jennings @NSF Howard Pfeffer @SullivanISOC @margmartonosi* *SIMULCASTS* *https://www.pscp.tv/ISOC_Live/ * *https://www.twitch.tv/isoclive * *https://www.facebook.com/InternetSociety/live * *ARCHIVE* *https://archive.org/details/nsfnet35 * *Permalink* https://isoc.live/13170/ - -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - From vgcerf at gmail.com Fri Dec 11 12:29:46 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 15:29:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson Message-ID: >From The New York Times: Norman Abramson, Pioneer Behind Wireless Networks, Dies at 88 His ALOHAnet, designed a half-century ago in Hawaii, was a precursor to the technology used in today?s smartphones and home WiFi networks. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/technology/norman-abramson-dead.html?smid=em-share From dan at lynch.com Fri Dec 11 14:37:01 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 14:37:01 -0800 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <809F6B8D-009F-4003-9C98-1E370EB09BE7@lynch.com> A very lovely tribute and factual! Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Dec 11, 2020, at 12:30 PM, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > ?From The New York Times: > > Norman Abramson, Pioneer Behind Wireless Networks, Dies at 88 > > His ALOHAnet, designed a half-century ago in Hawaii, was a precursor to the > technology used in today?s smartphones and home WiFi networks. > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/technology/norman-abramson-dead.html?smid=em-share > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From cabo at tzi.org Fri Dec 11 15:09:35 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 00:09:35 +0100 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0E385B1F-316E-43D6-8220-6AC505162419@tzi.org> On 2020-12-11, at 21:29, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/technology/norman-abramson-dead.html?smid=em-share On the title image, is he holding an HP-35 calculator with a telescoping antenna held behind it? Beautiful. Gr??e, Carsten From dan at lynch.com Fri Dec 11 15:58:55 2020 From: dan at lynch.com (Dan Lynch) Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2020 15:58:55 -0800 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson In-Reply-To: <0E385B1F-316E-43D6-8220-6AC505162419@tzi.org> References: <0E385B1F-316E-43D6-8220-6AC505162419@tzi.org> Message-ID: <639B8E18-F234-41D4-A9E5-899449BC68BF@lynch.com> Yes, the HP-35 was the first personal computer! Seriously. At my work in the early 70s management bought one for every person. I was working for Riverside Research Institute in Manhattan. Dan Cell 650-776-7313 > On Dec 11, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: > > ?On 2020-12-11, at 21:29, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/technology/norman-abramson-dead.html?smid=em-share > > On the title image, is he holding an HP-35 calculator with a telescoping antenna held behind it? Beautiful. > > Gr??e, Carsten > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Sat Dec 12 16:30:11 2020 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 19:30:11 -0500 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson In-Reply-To: <639B8E18-F234-41D4-A9E5-899449BC68BF@lynch.com> References: <0E385B1F-316E-43D6-8220-6AC505162419@tzi.org> <639B8E18-F234-41D4-A9E5-899449BC68BF@lynch.com> Message-ID: Still have mine around here somewhere. Unfortunately, one of the keys has gone wonky - or I'd still be using it. FYI:? There is a rather nice emulator available, for Android phones! Miles Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > Yes, the HP-35 was the first personal computer! Seriously. At my work in the early 70s management bought one for every person. I was working for Riverside Research Institute in Manhattan. > > Dan > > Cell 650-776-7313 > >> On Dec 11, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Carsten Bormann via Internet-history wrote: >> >> ?On 2020-12-11, at 21:29, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/11/technology/norman-abramson-dead.html?smid=em-share >> On the title image, is he holding an HP-35 calculator with a telescoping antenna held behind it? Beautiful. >> >> Gr??e, Carsten >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. In our lab, theory and practice are combined: nothing works and no one knows why. ... unknown From dhc at dcrocker.net Sat Dec 12 18:02:37 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:02:37 -0800 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson In-Reply-To: <639B8E18-F234-41D4-A9E5-899449BC68BF@lynch.com> References: <0E385B1F-316E-43D6-8220-6AC505162419@tzi.org> <639B8E18-F234-41D4-A9E5-899449BC68BF@lynch.com> Message-ID: On 12/11/2020 3:58 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: > Yes, the HP-35 was the first personal computer! IEEE had a brief article, just after it came out, written by one of its engineers. He compared the device to ENIAC. Basic computer characteristics were remarkably similar. Cost, size, reliability were a bit different. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Dec 12 18:51:36 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2020 18:51:36 -0800 Subject: [ih] Norm Abramson In-Reply-To: References: <0E385B1F-316E-43D6-8220-6AC505162419@tzi.org> <639B8E18-F234-41D4-A9E5-899449BC68BF@lynch.com> Message-ID: <4d097e89-eb1e-80ef-ada8-d785bc076724@3kitty.org> Also different - operations and maintenance.?? One of my neighbors, in the 1950s, worked on staff at the University of Pennsylvania.? His job was simple and very repetitive -- changing vacuum tubes (remember those?) inside Eniac.?? It was a continuous daily task. /Jack On 12/12/20 6:02 PM, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 12/11/2020 3:58 PM, Dan Lynch via Internet-history wrote: >> Yes, the HP-35 was the first personal computer! > > > IEEE had a brief article, just after it came out, written by one of > its engineers.? He compared the device to ENIAC. > > Basic computer characteristics were remarkably similar.? Cost, size, > reliability were a bit different. > > > d/ > From mdavids at forfun.net Fri Dec 18 06:15:58 2020 From: mdavids at forfun.net (Marco Davids (Private)) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 15:15:58 +0100 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 Message-ID: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> Hello, Today I learned of: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 (also referred to in RFC1726). It was written well before IPv6. I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was ultimately dubbed IPv6? -- Marco From touch at strayalpha.com Fri Dec 18 07:55:43 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 07:55:43 -0800 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 18, 2020, at 6:15 AM, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history wrote: > > Hello, > > Today I learned of: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 > (also referred to in RFC1726). > > It was written well before IPv6. > > I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was ultimately dubbed IPv6? I don?t know why it ?follows current nomenclature? to skip IPv6 at the time. But this document isn?t IPv6; what this calls ?IPv7? is a placeholder for the response to this RFC?s architectural assertions. IPv6 emerged from responses to RFC1550. Joe From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Dec 18 08:39:01 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 16:39:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> Message-ID: <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> hi, Just in case people aren't aware of the Internet Stream Protocol,? I thought I would mention the ST packets used version 5 in the IP header.? barbara On Friday, December 18, 2020, 7:56:09 AM PST, Joseph Touch via Internet-history wrote: > On Dec 18, 2020, at 6:15 AM, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history wrote: > > Hello, > > Today I learned of: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 > (also referred to in RFC1726). > > It was written well before IPv6. > > I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was ultimately dubbed IPv6? I don?t know why it ?follows current nomenclature? to skip IPv6 at the time. But this document isn?t IPv6; what this calls ?IPv7? is a placeholder for the response to this RFC?s architectural assertions. IPv6 emerged from responses to RFC1550. Joe -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vint at google.com Fri Dec 18 08:45:51 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 11:45:51 -0500 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: correct!! v On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 11:40 AM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > hi, > Just in case people aren't aware of the Internet Stream Protocol, > I thought I would mention the ST packets used version 5 in the IP > header. > > barbara > > On Friday, December 18, 2020, 7:56:09 AM PST, Joseph Touch via > Internet-history wrote: > > > > > On Dec 18, 2020, at 6:15 AM, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history > wrote: > > > > Hello, > > > > Today I learned of: > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 > > (also referred to in RFC1726). > > > > It was written well before IPv6. > > > > I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was > ultimately dubbed IPv6? > > I don?t know why it ?follows current nomenclature? to skip IPv6 at the > time. > > But this document isn?t IPv6; what this calls ?IPv7? is a placeholder for > the response to this RFC?s architectural assertions. > > IPv6 emerged from responses to RFC1550. > > Joe > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From dhc at dcrocker.net Fri Dec 18 10:03:30 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 10:03:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <59e8c945-e242-323d-4d43-8d772f756626@dcrocker.net> On 12/18/2020 8:39 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Just in case people aren't aware of the Internet Stream Protocol, > I thought I would mention the ST packets used version 5 in the IP > header. Does that mean that IPv5 got earlier and better deployment than IPv6? And how does it compare now? d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From vint at google.com Fri Dec 18 10:06:31 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 13:06:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <59e8c945-e242-323d-4d43-8d772f756626@dcrocker.net> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> <59e8c945-e242-323d-4d43-8d772f756626@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: it never deployed as far as I know except in experimental use. v On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 1:03 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 12/18/2020 8:39 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > Just in case people aren't aware of the Internet Stream Protocol, > > I thought I would mention the ST packets used version 5 in the IP > > header. > > Does that mean that IPv5 got earlier and better deployment than IPv6? > > And how does it compare now? > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From sob at sobco.com Fri Dec 18 10:14:50 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 13:14:50 -0500 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> Message-ID: <98742991-DF3C-4C35-86D6-E3F70CC942A4@sobco.com> the sequence was that once we (the IPng directorate, Allison & I) had decided on what we were going to recommend as IPng I went to Jon and asked for an IP version number - he said that the next available number was 10 (5 was ST2 and the others had been assigned to the experimental IPng protocols SIPP, TUBA and Catnip) I went back to the group and said that Jon had given us 10 someone pointed out that this could be a real problem since Van had used the high order bit of the version number to indicate header compression I went back to Jon - he suggested asking the SIPP folk to release 6 since the experimental SIPP IPng protocol was not going to go anywhere - I asked Steve & Bob if that would be OK and they agreed so IPng became IPv6 Scott > On Dec 18, 2020, at 9:15 AM, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history wrote: > > Hello, > > Today I learned of: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 > (also referred to in RFC1726). > > It was written well before IPv6. > > I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was ultimately dubbed IPv6? > > -- > Marco > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From sob at sobco.com Fri Dec 18 10:18:22 2020 From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 13:18:22 -0500 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <98742991-DF3C-4C35-86D6-E3F70CC942A4@sobco.com> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> <98742991-DF3C-4C35-86D6-E3F70CC942A4@sobco.com> Message-ID: <4E73BD84-08FA-4C81-B3AB-5C8201C1D53A@sobco.com> ps - Jon was none to happy to hear that Van had commandeered the hi order version bit without discussing the idea with Jon Scott > On Dec 18, 2020, at 1:14 PM, Scott O. Bradner via Internet-history wrote: > > the sequence was that once we (the IPng directorate, Allison & I) had decided on what we were going to > recommend as IPng I went to Jon and asked for an IP version number - he said that the next available > number was 10 (5 was ST2 and the others had been assigned to the experimental IPng protocols SIPP, > TUBA and Catnip) > > I went back to the group and said that Jon had given us 10 > > someone pointed out that this could be a real problem since Van had used the high order bit of the version > number to indicate header compression > > I went back to Jon - he suggested asking the SIPP folk to release 6 since the experimental SIPP IPng > protocol was not going to go anywhere - I asked Steve & Bob if that would be OK and they agreed > > so IPng became IPv6 > > Scott > >> On Dec 18, 2020, at 9:15 AM, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history wrote: >> >> Hello, >> >> Today I learned of: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 >> (also referred to in RFC1726). >> >> It was written well before IPv6. >> >> I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was ultimately dubbed IPv6? >> >> -- >> Marco >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From Francis.Dupont at fdupont.fr Fri Dec 18 11:15:46 2020 From: Francis.Dupont at fdupont.fr (Francis Dupont) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 20:15:46 +0100 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 18 Dec 2020 13:14:50 -0500. <98742991-DF3C-4C35-86D6-E3F70CC942A4@sobco.com> Message-ID: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> In your previous mail you wrote: > the sequence was that once we (the IPng directorate, Allison & I) had decided on what we were going to > recommend as IPng I went to Jon and asked for an IP version number - he said that the next available > number was 10 (5 was ST2 and the others had been assigned to the experimental IPng protocols SIPP, > TUBA and Catnip) => TUBA got the number 7 > I went back to Jon - he suggested asking the SIPP folk to release 6 since the experimental SIPP IPng > protocol was not going to go anywhere - I asked Steve & Bob if that would be OK and they agreed > so IPng became IPv6 => this matches what I can remember... A bit old as I went to Amsterdam for the 27th IETF (first outside NA) in July 1993 with a TUBA implementation. For IPv6 itself first implementations appeared in March 1995 with a demo at Stockholm for the 33rd IETF in July. I do not know for the 32nd IETF as I didn't come to Danvers. Regards Francis.Dupont at fdupont.fr From casner at acm.org Fri Dec 18 11:48:11 2020 From: casner at acm.org (Stephen Casner) Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2020 11:48:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <59e8c945-e242-323d-4d43-8d772f756626@dcrocker.net> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> <1810808720.2218853.1608309541204@mail.yahoo.com> <59e8c945-e242-323d-4d43-8d772f756626@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Dec 2020, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 12/18/2020 8:39 AM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > > Just in case people aren't aware of the Internet Stream Protocol, > > I thought I would mention the ST packets used version 5 in the IP > > header. > > Does that mean that IPv5 got earlier and better deployment than IPv6? Earlier, yes; better, no. A significant fraction, perhaps a majority, of the traffic on the Wideband Satellite Network of the 1980s used the ST protocol, first version 1 and then version 2. That network was the motivation for the design of ST. Using ST to establish connections rather than just sending datagrams allowed the multi-access satellite protocol to preallocate bandwidth and thereby deliver packets with a single hop delay rather than two (one to request a time slot and a second for the data transit). One could argue whether the internetworking layer is the right place to implement such functionality. > And how does it compare now? Probably none at all. -- Steve From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Dec 18 12:27:12 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2020 09:27:12 +1300 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> Message-ID: <7a492145-bf85-a8b7-825a-aad7feba8de4@gmail.com> Scott's answer is definitively correct, but there is a bit more to be said in answer to Marco's question. In July 1992, if I have this right, version 6 had been assigned to SIP (simple Internet protocol, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deering-sip-00 from Steve Deering), so 7 was the next available number. Since Jon Postel was IANA and was an IAB member, I think that explains why the IAB draft used 7. SIP later merged with other proposals as SIPP prior to final mutation into IPv6. The IAB draft rather whimsically entitled "IP Version 7 **DRAFT 8**" did not have a great reception, since it didn't actually define a version of IP; it said "let's use OSI CLNP instead of IP". That didn't work out well for the IAB. My personal interpretation starts at page 102 in my book. Regards Brian Carpenter On 19-Dec-20 03:15, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history wrote: > Hello, > > Today I learned of: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 > (also referred to in RFC1726). > > It was written well before IPv6. > > I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was > ultimately dubbed IPv6? > From bob.hinden at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 12:06:35 2020 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 12:06:35 -0800 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> Message-ID: <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> Francis, > On Dec 18, 2020, at 11:15 AM, Francis Dupont via Internet-history wrote: > > In your previous mail you wrote: > >> the sequence was that once we (the IPng directorate, Allison & I) had decided on what we were going to >> recommend as IPng I went to Jon and asked for an IP version number - he said that the next available >> number was 10 (5 was ST2 and the others had been assigned to the experimental IPng protocols SIPP, >> TUBA and Catnip) > > => TUBA got the number 7 According to https://www.iana.org/assignments/version-numbers/version-numbers.xhtml TUBA was assigned 9. TP/IX was assigned 7. BTW, I am not sure why 8 and 9 are labeled as historic, but 7 isn?t. I will ask IANA about this off list. Bob > >> I went back to Jon - he suggested asking the SIPP folk to release 6 since the experimental SIPP IPng >> protocol was not going to go anywhere - I asked Steve & Bob if that would be OK and they agreed >> so IPng became IPv6 > > => this matches what I can remember... A bit old as I went to Amsterdam for > the 27th IETF (first outside NA) in July 1993 with a TUBA implementation. > > For IPv6 itself first implementations appeared in March 1995 with a demo > at Stockholm for the 33rd IETF in July. I do not know for the 32nd IETF > as I didn't come to Danvers. > > Regards > > Francis.Dupont at fdupont.fr > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From bob.hinden at gmail.com Tue Dec 22 12:07:59 2020 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 12:07:59 -0800 Subject: [ih] IP version 7 In-Reply-To: <7a492145-bf85-a8b7-825a-aad7feba8de4@gmail.com> References: <41542d5b-d0fd-3da2-44bd-61ea0d0e5959@forfun.net> <7a492145-bf85-a8b7-825a-aad7feba8de4@gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian, > On Dec 18, 2020, at 12:27 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Scott's answer is definitively correct, but there is a bit more to be said > in answer to Marco's question. > > In July 1992, if I have this right, version 6 had been assigned to SIP > (simple Internet protocol, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-deering-sip-00 > from Steve Deering), so 7 was the next available number. Since Jon Postel > was IANA and was an IAB member, I think that explains why the IAB draft > used 7. SIP later merged with other proposals as SIPP prior to final > mutation into IPv6. > > The IAB draft rather whimsically entitled "IP Version 7 **DRAFT 8**" > did not have a great reception, since it didn't actually define a > version of IP; it said "let's use OSI CLNP instead of IP". > > That didn't work out well for the IAB. My personal interpretation > starts at page 102 in my book. Yes, the so called ?Kobe? incident. The IAB has never been the same. Bob > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 19-Dec-20 03:15, Marco Davids (Private) via Internet-history wrote: >> Hello, >> >> Today I learned of: >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-iab-ipversion7 >> (also referred to in RFC1726). >> >> It was written well before IPv6. >> >> I know why IPv5 was skipped, but does anyone happen to know why IPv7 was >> ultimately dubbed IPv6? >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From gnu at toad.com Tue Dec 22 18:04:33 2020 From: gnu at toad.com (John Gilmore) Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2020 18:04:33 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> Bob Hinden via Internet-history wrote: > BTW, I am not sure why 8 and 9 are labeled as historic, but 7 isn't. > I will ask IANA about this off list. While we're thinking about it, there is another small field that threatens to overflow sometime in the foreseeable future, the "Assigned Internet Protocol Numbers". These are 8 bits wide, and exist in every IPv4 and IPv6 packet: https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml The frequently used ones are TCP (6), UDP (17), ICMP (1), etc. Then there is the dross. This registry is already more than half full, and it lists as actively in use such flashes-in-the-pan as the BR-SAT-MON (Backroom SATNET Monitoring), the Sun-ND PROTOCOL ("Temporary") from the early 1980s, Ipsilon Flow Management Protocol, Sprite-RPC from 1986, CPHB Computer Protocol Heart Beat, Source Demand Routing Protocol, 3PC 3rd Party Connect Protocol, and tons of other things that should have just gotten a UDP port number assigned from a 16-bit field. Half of these protocols don't even have an RFC that defines the protocol. There is no defined process for reclaiming them, other than having the original requester write an email to IANA and tell them that it isn't in use any more. That seems to be true even if the original requester worked for a company that the protocol was used by, and the company still exists (like Sun/Oracle) even though the requester has moved on decades ago. Probably, fewer than half of the people who got these protocol numbers assigned are now dead, but every year creates more such situations. I succeeded in asking John Ioannidis to release 2 of the 3 protocol numbers that he got assigned during the early packet encryption days. IANA wouldn't just de-allocate them, but they have at least marked them "deprecated". JI isn't sure if his IPIP, protocol 94, is in use anywhere. We think everybody encapsulating IPv4 in IPv4 or IPv6 packets is using protocol 4 nowadays, but how would one actually tell? So 94 remains not deprecated. When designing IPv6, the designers made the address space huge, but the protocol space is *smaller* than in IPv4. Not only do the protocol numbers used in IPv4 overlap those used in IPv6, but both of them overlap the "IPv6 extension header" allocation space. Assigning a new protocol OR a new extension header burns up space for all three protocols. Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a protocol number assigned, please check if it can be released? You can search the above IANA page for your name, to find out if IANA thinks you are in charge of any. Or, perhaps notify a retired researcher not on the list, (e.g. is anybody running Noel Chiappa's CHAOSnet, protocol 16, on top of IP? Or Zaw-Sing Su's Packet Radio Measurement protocol 21? Or the mystery EMCON protocol 14 with no known contact person or protocol spec?) And let's together think up a viable way to release the protocols that were used for some research project, and were then left behind by a person who has since departed the planet for realms where the protocol number space is infinite. John From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Dec 23 11:20:57 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 11:20:57 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <9d9db930-8c26-f56f-64fa-287f5afe6578@3kitty.org> On 12/22/20 6:04 PM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a protocol > number assigned, please check if it can be released? Apparently I still "own" protocol 15 for XNET.?? That happened sometime in the 80s, when in a fit of organization I decided to write down the details of the XNET protocol as more people got involved.? I was at BBN at the time. The IANA lists me for protocol 15, with my email address as jhaverty at oracle.com.?? That update probably occurred when I got some other numbers assigned by IANA for database traffic (IIRC, port numbers); it was easy, just a phone call to Jon Postel.? But my Oracle address hasn't worked for the last 20+ years, so no one can contact me. I've said this before, but again I hereby release protocol 15 (aka XNET) and personally have no further use for it.?? Also any port numbers which may still be assigned to me.? However, these are a "quitclaim" releases, since I have no idea who else may still be using these numbers. >From a larger view, IMHO the Internet "governance" (IANA et al) have released thousands of RFCs and assigned hundreds of numbers, but don't seem to have any mechanisms to track how such things, i.e., numbers or protocols, are actually used in the operational Internet.? So it's not clear to me how to "release" anything.... /Jack Haverty From agmalis at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 11:26:36 2020 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 14:26:36 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <9d9db930-8c26-f56f-64fa-287f5afe6578@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <9d9db930-8c26-f56f-64fa-287f5afe6578@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Jack, An email to iana at iana.org would be a great place to start (rather than to this list). If they have any questions, they'll consult the IESG for guidance. Cheers, Andy On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 2:21 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 12/22/20 6:04 PM, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: > > Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a protocol > > number assigned, please check if it can be released? > Apparently I still "own" protocol 15 for XNET. That happened sometime > in the 80s, when in a fit of organization I decided to write down the > details of the XNET protocol as more people got involved. I was at BBN > at the time. > > The IANA lists me for protocol 15, with my email address as > jhaverty at oracle.com. That update probably occurred when I got some > other numbers assigned by IANA for database traffic (IIRC, port > numbers); it was easy, just a phone call to Jon Postel. But my Oracle > address hasn't worked for the last 20+ years, so no one can contact me. > > I've said this before, but again I hereby release protocol 15 (aka XNET) > and personally have no further use for it. Also any port numbers which > may still be assigned to me. However, these are a "quitclaim" releases, > since I have no idea who else may still be using these numbers. > > From a larger view, IMHO the Internet "governance" (IANA et al) have > released thousands of RFCs and assigned hundreds of numbers, but don't > seem to have any mechanisms to track how such things, i.e., numbers or > protocols, are actually used in the operational Internet. So it's not > clear to me how to "release" anything.... > > /Jack Haverty > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 12:01:25 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 09:01:25 +1300 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <9d9db930-8c26-f56f-64fa-287f5afe6578@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <9d9db930-8c26-f56f-64fa-287f5afe6578@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <5782ab0e-1bdf-9efe-e11d-4b857768eaca@gmail.com> On 24-Dec-20 08:20, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: ... > From a larger view, IMHO the Internet "governance" (IANA et al) have > released thousands of RFCs and assigned hundreds of numbers, but don't > seem to have any mechanisms to track how such things, i.e., numbers or > protocols, are actually used in the operational Internet.? So it's not > clear to me how to "release" anything.... It's impossible in practice to assert that a given feature isn't used any more. How can you determine that protocols 15, 32 or 125 are *not* used in some remote corner of the netiverse? This is a Good Thing if you believe in privacy and dislike arbitrary surveillance. So IANA and the IETF have always been very conservative about releasing magic numbers for potential re-use. The problem has been most acute for system ports; iirc that's the only case where the IETF has found real cause for concern. Even though the protocol number space might appear to be relatively full, I think we're a long way from a problem. But if you think there's a problem, write a draft for the IETF to discuss. Certainly people on this list could help in any effort to identify obsolete assignments, but instructions to IANA have to come from the IESG on behalf of the IETF. (I thought about writing such a draft a few years ago, when somebody wrote to me out of the blue enquiring about the status of protocol 32, probably because I am an author of RFC7045. But there seemed to be no interest at that time in doing the work.) Regards Brian From cabo at tzi.org Wed Dec 23 13:12:59 2020 From: cabo at tzi.org (Carsten Bormann) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 22:12:59 +0100 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <5782ab0e-1bdf-9efe-e11d-4b857768eaca@gmail.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <9d9db930-8c26-f56f-64fa-287f5afe6578@3kitty.org> <5782ab0e-1bdf-9efe-e11d-4b857768eaca@gmail.com> Message-ID: <911FD499-0817-4D69-8564-B9B3344BD8AA@tzi.org> On 2020-12-23, at 21:01, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Even though the protocol number space might appear to be relatively > full, I think we're a long way from a problem. At the current rate of allocation, the protocol numbers may well last into the next millennium. We got 142 for "IPsec Extensions to Support Robust Header Compression over IPsec?, RFC 5858, in 2010. 143 was (tentatively) allocated for SR in 2020. There are 109 more to go, so at the current rate the last one, 252, will be allocated in the year 3110 AD. OK, if we look at the last 5, that spans 2008 to 2020. So we?ll run out in the year 2547 AD. I believe we should use some of the time until then to start a process for reclaiming protocol numbers. Maybe with 100-year last-calls for deprecation. Or we could make protocol number allocation ?soft state?, which needs to be renewed after every 100 years the latest. Gr??e, Carsten From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Wed Dec 23 18:08:06 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 02:08:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a? project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking for a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON details worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly.? barbara On Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 06:32:29 PM PST, John Gilmore via Internet-history wrote: Bob Hinden via Internet-history wrote: > BTW, I am not sure why 8 and 9 are labeled as historic, but 7 isn't. > I will ask IANA about this off list. While we're thinking about it, there is another small field that threatens to overflow sometime in the foreseeable future, the "Assigned Internet Protocol Numbers".? These are 8 bits wide, and exist in every IPv4 and IPv6 packet: ? https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml The frequently used ones are TCP (6), UDP (17), ICMP (1), etc.? Then there is the dross.? This registry is already more than half full, and it lists as actively in use such flashes-in-the-pan as the BR-SAT-MON (Backroom SATNET Monitoring), the Sun-ND PROTOCOL ("Temporary") from the early 1980s, Ipsilon Flow Management Protocol, Sprite-RPC from 1986, CPHB Computer Protocol Heart Beat, Source Demand Routing Protocol, 3PC 3rd Party Connect Protocol, and tons of other things that should have just gotten a UDP port number assigned from a 16-bit field.? Half of these protocols don't even have an RFC that defines the protocol. There is no defined process for reclaiming them, other than having the original requester write an email to IANA and tell them that it isn't in use any more.? That seems to be true even if the original requester worked for a company that the protocol was used by, and the company still exists (like Sun/Oracle) even though the requester has moved on decades ago.? Probably, fewer than half of the people who got these protocol numbers assigned are now dead, but every year creates more such situations. I succeeded in asking John Ioannidis to release 2 of the 3 protocol numbers that he got assigned during the early packet encryption days. IANA wouldn't just de-allocate them, but they have at least marked them "deprecated".? JI isn't sure if his IPIP, protocol 94, is in use anywhere.? We think everybody encapsulating IPv4 in IPv4 or IPv6 packets is using protocol 4 nowadays, but how would one actually tell?? So 94 remains not deprecated. When designing IPv6, the designers made the address space huge, but the protocol space is *smaller* than in IPv4.? Not only do the protocol numbers used in IPv4 overlap those used in IPv6, but both of them overlap the "IPv6 extension header" allocation space.? Assigning a new protocol OR a new extension header burns up space for all three protocols. Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a protocol number assigned, please check if it can be released?? You can search the above IANA page for your name, to find out if IANA thinks you are in charge of any. Or, perhaps notify a retired researcher not on the list, (e.g. is anybody running Noel Chiappa's CHAOSnet, protocol 16, on top of IP?? Or Zaw-Sing Su's Packet Radio Measurement protocol 21?? Or the mystery EMCON protocol 14 with no known contact person or protocol spec?) And let's together think up a viable way to release the protocols that were used for some research project, and were then left behind by a person who has since departed the planet for realms where the protocol number space is infinite. ??? John ??? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From louie at transsys.com Wed Dec 23 18:17:39 2020 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 21:17:39 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <92EEC233-2247-4DA5-8C10-50CABF00644D@transsys.com> Perhaps one way forward for the IANA is to take these old protocol number assignments and also make them available for "local" or "experimental" use. Since they're only (probably) of note to the end-systems, it's likely safe to reuse these protocol number for future experiments. Sort of like how network 10.0.0.0/8 got allocated for RFC-1918 local-use after the ARPANET was turned off. louie On 23 Dec 2020, at 21:08, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had > a? project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group > Meeting hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember > us asking for a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder > if Jon may have created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada > implementation of the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think > we had the EMCON details worked out yet.? The project got cancelled > unexpectedly and on short notice due to a change in personnel if I > remember correctly.? > barbara > On Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 06:32:29 PM PST, John Gilmore via > Internet-history wrote: > > Bob Hinden via Internet-history > wrote: >> BTW, I am not sure why 8 and 9 are labeled as historic, but 7 isn't. >> I will ask IANA about this off list. > > While we're thinking about it, there is another small field that > threatens to overflow sometime in the foreseeable future, the > "Assigned > Internet Protocol Numbers".? These are 8 bits wide, and exist in > every IPv4 > and IPv6 packet: > > ? > https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml > > The frequently used ones are TCP (6), UDP (17), ICMP (1), etc.? Then > there is the dross.? This registry is already more than half full, > and > it lists as actively in use such flashes-in-the-pan as the BR-SAT-MON > (Backroom SATNET Monitoring), the Sun-ND PROTOCOL ("Temporary") from > the > early 1980s, Ipsilon Flow Management Protocol, Sprite-RPC from 1986, > CPHB Computer Protocol Heart Beat, Source Demand Routing Protocol, 3PC > 3rd Party Connect Protocol, and tons of other things that should have > just gotten a UDP port number assigned from a 16-bit field.? Half of > these protocols don't even have an RFC that defines the protocol. > > There is no defined process for reclaiming them, other than having the > original requester write an email to IANA and tell them that it isn't > in > use any more.? That seems to be true even if the original requester > worked for a company that the protocol was used by, and the company > still exists (like Sun/Oracle) even though the requester has moved on > decades ago.? Probably, fewer than half of the people who got these > protocol numbers assigned are now dead, but every year creates more > such situations. > > I succeeded in asking John Ioannidis to release 2 of the 3 protocol > numbers that he got assigned during the early packet encryption days. > IANA wouldn't just de-allocate them, but they have at least marked > them > "deprecated".? JI isn't sure if his IPIP, protocol 94, is in use > anywhere.? We think everybody encapsulating IPv4 in IPv4 or IPv6 > packets > is using protocol 4 nowadays, but how would one actually tell?? So 94 > remains not deprecated. > > When designing IPv6, the designers made the address space huge, but > the > protocol space is *smaller* than in IPv4.? Not only do the protocol > numbers used in IPv4 overlap those used in IPv6, but both of them > overlap the "IPv6 extension header" allocation space.? Assigning a > new > protocol OR a new extension header burns up space for all three > protocols. > > Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a > protocol > number assigned, please check if it can be released?? You can search > the > above IANA page for your name, to find out if IANA thinks you are in > charge of any. > > Or, perhaps notify a retired researcher not on the list, (e.g. is > anybody running Noel Chiappa's CHAOSnet, protocol 16, on top of IP?? > Or > Zaw-Sing Su's Packet Radio Measurement protocol 21?? Or the mystery > EMCON protocol 14 with no known contact person or protocol spec?) > > And let's together think up a viable way to release the protocols that > were used for some research project, and were then left behind by a > person who has since departed the planet for realms where the protocol > number space is infinite. > > ??? John > ??? > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Wed Dec 23 20:20:04 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2020 23:20:04 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: this makes good sense to me - I remember spending time on the problem of making TCP work under those conditions by faking acks somehow and potentially repeated transmissions to reduce probability of loss of information. v On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 9:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > On Tuesday, December 22, 2020, 06:32:29 PM PST, John Gilmore via > Internet-history wrote: > > Bob Hinden via Internet-history wrote: > > BTW, I am not sure why 8 and 9 are labeled as historic, but 7 isn't. > > I will ask IANA about this off list. > > While we're thinking about it, there is another small field that > threatens to overflow sometime in the foreseeable future, the "Assigned > Internet Protocol Numbers". These are 8 bits wide, and exist in every IPv4 > and IPv6 packet: > > https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml > > The frequently used ones are TCP (6), UDP (17), ICMP (1), etc. Then > there is the dross. This registry is already more than half full, and > it lists as actively in use such flashes-in-the-pan as the BR-SAT-MON > (Backroom SATNET Monitoring), the Sun-ND PROTOCOL ("Temporary") from the > early 1980s, Ipsilon Flow Management Protocol, Sprite-RPC from 1986, > CPHB Computer Protocol Heart Beat, Source Demand Routing Protocol, 3PC > 3rd Party Connect Protocol, and tons of other things that should have > just gotten a UDP port number assigned from a 16-bit field. Half of > these protocols don't even have an RFC that defines the protocol. > > There is no defined process for reclaiming them, other than having the > original requester write an email to IANA and tell them that it isn't in > use any more. That seems to be true even if the original requester > worked for a company that the protocol was used by, and the company > still exists (like Sun/Oracle) even though the requester has moved on > decades ago. Probably, fewer than half of the people who got these > protocol numbers assigned are now dead, but every year creates more > such situations. > > I succeeded in asking John Ioannidis to release 2 of the 3 protocol > numbers that he got assigned during the early packet encryption days. > IANA wouldn't just de-allocate them, but they have at least marked them > "deprecated". JI isn't sure if his IPIP, protocol 94, is in use > anywhere. We think everybody encapsulating IPv4 in IPv4 or IPv6 packets > is using protocol 4 nowadays, but how would one actually tell? So 94 > remains not deprecated. > > When designing IPv6, the designers made the address space huge, but the > protocol space is *smaller* than in IPv4. Not only do the protocol > numbers used in IPv4 overlap those used in IPv6, but both of them > overlap the "IPv6 extension header" allocation space. Assigning a new > protocol OR a new extension header burns up space for all three > protocols. > > Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a protocol > number assigned, please check if it can be released? You can search the > above IANA page for your name, to find out if IANA thinks you are in > charge of any. > > Or, perhaps notify a retired researcher not on the list, (e.g. is > anybody running Noel Chiappa's CHAOSnet, protocol 16, on top of IP? Or > Zaw-Sing Su's Packet Radio Measurement protocol 21? Or the mystery > EMCON protocol 14 with no known contact person or protocol spec?) > > And let's together think up a viable way to release the protocols that > were used for some research project, and were then left behind by a > person who has since departed the planet for realms where the protocol > number space is infinite. > > John > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From craig at tereschau.net Thu Dec 24 06:40:27 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 07:40:27 -0700 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > Hey Barbara: I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for the first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on it). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From vint at google.com Thu Dec 24 06:52:48 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 09:52:48 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and MATNET (which I do remember)? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > > assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > > project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > > networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking > for > > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > > the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON > details > > worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short > notice > > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > > barbara > > > > > Hey Barbara: > > I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new > employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if > different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command > centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working > on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, > so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB > Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon > Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for the > first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that > an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature > (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest > network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on > it). > > Craig > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > mailing lists. > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 24 09:37:04 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 12:37:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) Message-ID: <20201224173704.7FA1D18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Gilmore > is anybody running Noel Chiappa's CHAOSnet, protocol 16, on top of IP? Err, my brain just tuned on..... It's not really 'my' CHAOSnet, I just applied for the number (for other people to use). But as to the question 'is it still in use', see this: https://chaosnet.net/global Of course, it's not being used (AKAIK) for anything vital, but there do seem to be protocol 16. packets still going around out there. The vintage computer scene is astonisgingly lively! :-) Noel From bob.hinden at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 09:56:15 2020 From: bob.hinden at gmail.com (Bob Hinden) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 09:56:15 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> Message-ID: <7F07C3DA-9EA8-4144-AC04-897303765207@gmail.com> John, > On Dec 22, 2020, at 6:04 PM, John Gilmore wrote: > > Bob Hinden via Internet-history wrote: >> BTW, I am not sure why 8 and 9 are labeled as historic, but 7 isn't. >> I will ask IANA about this off list. > > While we're thinking about it, there is another small field that > threatens to overflow sometime in the foreseeable future, the "Assigned > Internet Protocol Numbers". These are 8 bits wide, and exist in every IPv4 > and IPv6 packet: > > https://www.iana.org/assignments/protocol-numbers/protocol-numbers.xhtml This topic comes up periodically. As Brian said, it it impossible to know what is being used on the Internet. For example, Craig Partridge and I were involved in RDP (RFC908 and RFC1151). We were not aware of any active use, until someone pointed out it was a required part of the specification for eSIM used in mobile phones. See: https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_ts/102100_102199/102127/06.06.00_60/ts_102127v060600p.pdf The other reason why I don?t think the space is at risk of filling up is is because most new protocols won?t make it through most NAT or Firewalls. People tend to do new stuff under UDP, TCP, or HTTP. As far as I can tell, there has only been one new assignment in the last ten years. Bob > > The frequently used ones are TCP (6), UDP (17), ICMP (1), etc. Then > there is the dross. This registry is already more than half full, and > it lists as actively in use such flashes-in-the-pan as the BR-SAT-MON > (Backroom SATNET Monitoring), the Sun-ND PROTOCOL ("Temporary") from the > early 1980s, Ipsilon Flow Management Protocol, Sprite-RPC from 1986, > CPHB Computer Protocol Heart Beat, Source Demand Routing Protocol, 3PC > 3rd Party Connect Protocol, and tons of other things that should have > just gotten a UDP port number assigned from a 16-bit field. Half of > these protocols don't even have an RFC that defines the protocol. > > There is no defined process for reclaiming them, other than having the > original requester write an email to IANA and tell them that it isn't in > use any more. That seems to be true even if the original requester > worked for a company that the protocol was used by, and the company > still exists (like Sun/Oracle) even though the requester has moved on > decades ago. Probably, fewer than half of the people who got these > protocol numbers assigned are now dead, but every year creates more > such situations. > > I succeeded in asking John Ioannidis to release 2 of the 3 protocol > numbers that he got assigned during the early packet encryption days. > IANA wouldn't just de-allocate them, but they have at least marked them > "deprecated". JI isn't sure if his IPIP, protocol 94, is in use > anywhere. We think everybody encapsulating IPv4 in IPv4 or IPv6 packets > is using protocol 4 nowadays, but how would one actually tell? So 94 > remains not deprecated. > > When designing IPv6, the designers made the address space huge, but the > protocol space is *smaller* than in IPv4. Not only do the protocol > numbers used in IPv4 overlap those used in IPv6, but both of them > overlap the "IPv6 extension header" allocation space. Assigning a new > protocol OR a new extension header burns up space for all three > protocols. > > Could anybody who is reading this list, who at one point got a protocol > number assigned, please check if it can be released? You can search the > above IANA page for your name, to find out if IANA thinks you are in > charge of any. > > Or, perhaps notify a retired researcher not on the list, (e.g. is > anybody running Noel Chiappa's CHAOSnet, protocol 16, on top of IP? Or > Zaw-Sing Su's Packet Radio Measurement protocol 21? Or the mystery > EMCON protocol 14 with no known contact person or protocol spec?) > > And let's together think up a viable way to release the protocols that > were used for some research project, and were then left behind by a > person who has since departed the planet for realms where the protocol > number space is infinite. > > John > > > -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 488 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP URL: From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Dec 24 10:14:22 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 18:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> I don't think so.? I don't remember the name MATNET. If any knows, I think it would be Jim (Mathis). Craig, as far as I know the? Metanet project only involved SRI.? Happy Holidays everyone! barbara On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 06:53:01 AM PST, Vint Cerf wrote: was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and MATNET (which I do remember)? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > Hey Barbara: I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure out if different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped email for the first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on it). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:Vint Cerf1435 Woodhurst Blvd?McLean, VA 22102703-448-0965 until further notice From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 24 10:26:10 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 10:26:10 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET.? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time.? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's "technology transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund continued research. I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken Pogran may remember more. At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. /Jack Haverty On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking >> for >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON >> details >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short >> notice >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> barbara >>> >> >> Hey Barbara: >> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for the >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on >> it). >> >> Craig >> >> -- >> ***** >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> mailing lists. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > From steve at shinkuro.com Thu Dec 24 10:32:26 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:32:26 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: I left DARPA in 1974 and went to ISI. I had not focused on networks while I was at DARPA and was paying only peripheral attention to network issues while I was at ISI, so the following is, at best, tangential and anecdotal. Bill Carlson came into DARPA/IPTO behind me. At some point, and I don't recall the exact date, he visited me in Marina del Rey. He said he had just come from San Diego and had spent the day aboard an aircraft carrier, probably the Vinson. He said he attempted to count the number of computers on the ship but hadn't succeeded ;) Steve On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of > the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of > the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), > with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > > Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET. > I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl > Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. > Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the > Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's "technology > transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending > technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund > continued research. > > I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that > Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way > to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken > Pogran may remember more. > > At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with > the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a > follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > > Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and > > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking > >> for > >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation > of > >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON > >> details > >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short > >> notice > >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>> barbara > >>> > >> > >> Hey Barbara: > >> > >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new > >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if > >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard > command > >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP > working > >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something > else, > >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the > 80MB > >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a > Proteon > >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for > the > >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted > that > >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire > feature > >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest > >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run > on > >> it). > >> > >> Craig > >> > >> -- > >> ***** > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > >> mailing lists. > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Thu Dec 24 10:34:03 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 18:34:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] MATNET [Was Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)] In-Reply-To: <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <977147177.4194188.1608834843296@mail.yahoo.com> Vint, It may be possible that the MATNET project eventually morphed into thev METANET work, but I don't know. I was involved in MATNET so I can say a bit about it, although my memory is rusty.? I think some of the money came from DARPA and some from NOSC in San Diego.? It is possible that Frank Deckelman (Navy) was the project sponsor.? The idea was to connect ships to each other and to the shore using a low bandwidth (19.6 kbs) channel on a military satellite, using the shared channel reservation system developed in the SATNET project.? I do not recall any worries about emission control issues; I do recall that on each ship the radio channel was useless every time the ship's radar swept over the satellite antenna.? The prime contractor was a radio company (the name escapes me) headquartered in St Petersburg FL which made the WSK-3 (Whisky 3) radios that were on the ships.? BBN was a subcontractor providing expertise in 2 areas:? the shared use of the satellite channel, and the use of encryption technology that let the packet headers go in the clear while ensuring that the data was encrypted (from the PLI project). One odd thing that I remember about the project - the BBN people hated the high humidity and temperature of Florida summers, and the radio people hated the snow, ice, and cold of New England winters.? But for some perverse reason the prime contractor scheduled all the winter project meetings at BBN and all the summer meetings in St Petersburg. I left the project before it was completed, so I don't know whether there was ever a working system, or what happened next. Happy Holidays!Alex On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:15:07 PM EST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: I don't think so.? I don't remember the name MATNET. If any knows, I think it would be Jim (Mathis). Craig, as far as I know the? Metanet project only involved SRI.? Happy Holidays everyone! barbara ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 06:53:01 AM PST, Vint Cerf wrote:? was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and MATNET (which I do remember)? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > Hey Barbara: I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure out if different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped email for the first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on it). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:Vint Cerf1435 Woodhurst Blvd?McLean, VA 22102703-448-0965 until further notice ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From craig at tereschau.net Thu Dec 24 10:40:43 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 11:40:43 -0700 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well there may have been multiple Metanet projects. The BBN report I wrote re: the Proteon ring is BBN 5898, with Ben Woznick and titled "METANET Ring Network (NET-R)" in 1985. Frank Deckelman was the PM and as Jack mentions it was for the shipboard LAN. Craig On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 11:14 AM Barbara Denny wrote: > I don't think so. I don't remember the name MATNET. If any knows, I think > it would be Jim (Mathis). > > Craig, as far as I know the Metanet project only involved SRI. > > Happy Holidays everyone! > > barbara > > On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 06:53:01 AM PST, Vint Cerf < > vint at google.com> wrote: > > > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > > assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > > project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > > networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking > for > > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > > the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON > details > > worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short > notice > > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > > barbara > > > > > Hey Barbara: > > I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new > employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if > different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command > centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working > on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, > so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB > Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon > Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for the > first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that > an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature > (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest > network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on > it). > > Craig > > -- > ***** > Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > mailing lists. > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: > Vint Cerf > 1435 Woodhurst Blvd > McLean, VA 22102 > 703-448-0965 > > until further notice > > > > -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 10:41:15 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:41:15 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN supplied the network. I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until October 2005 at which point I joined Google. v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of > the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of > the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), > with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > > Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET. > I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl > Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. > Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the > Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's "technology > transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending > technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund > continued research. > > I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that > Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way > to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken > Pogran may remember more. > > At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with > the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a > follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > > Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and > > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking > >> for > >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation > of > >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON > >> details > >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short > >> notice > >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>> barbara > >>> > >> > >> Hey Barbara: > >> > >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new > >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if > >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard > command > >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP > working > >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something > else, > >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the > 80MB > >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a > Proteon > >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for > the > >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted > that > >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire > feature > >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest > >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run > on > >> it). > >> > >> Craig > >> > >> -- > >> ***** > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > >> mailing lists. > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Thu Dec 24 10:44:56 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 18:44:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <442543915.4229560.1608835496666@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks for this email!? It is ringing more bells.? Maybe I will remember more later.? The name Frank Deckelman sounds familiar. SRI also deployed equipment on the USS Carl Vinson for some work we had done.? The navy even hosted a tour of the ship for a few of us from SRI.? It was a great! I don't think many women got an opportunity to go on board at that time. barbara On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:26:32 AM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET.? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time.? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's "technology transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund continued research. I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken Pogran may remember more. At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. /Jack Haverty On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking >> for >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >> details >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short >> notice >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> barbara >>> >> >> Hey Barbara: >> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure out if >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped email for the >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on >> it). >> >> Craig >> >> -- >> ***** >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> mailing lists. >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 10:50:01 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 13:50:01 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <442543915.4229560.1608835496666@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <442543915.4229560.1608835496666@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: someone else may have already mentioned this but I recall a meeting at RSRE (Royal Signals and Radar Establishment) at which we went to dinner with our hosts and Frank Deckelman won at skittles for the US contingent! v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:45 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Thanks for this email! It is ringing more bells. Maybe I will remember > more later. The name Frank Deckelman sounds familiar. > SRI also deployed equipment on the USS Carl Vinson for some work we had > done. The navy even hosted a tour of the ship for a few of us from SRI. > It was a great! I don't think many women got an opportunity to go on board > at that time. > barbara > On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 10:26:32 AM PST, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of > the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of > the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), > with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > > Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET. > I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl > Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. > Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the > Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's "technology > transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending > technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund > continued research. > > I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that > Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way > to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken > Pogran may remember more. > > At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with > the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a > follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > > Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and > > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a > >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking > >> for > >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation > of > >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON > >> details > >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short > >> notice > >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>> barbara > >>> > >> > >> Hey Barbara: > >> > >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new > >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if > >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard > command > >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP > working > >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something > else, > >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the > 80MB > >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a > Proteon > >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email for > the > >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted > that > >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire > feature > >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest > >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run > on > >> it). > >> > >> Craig > >> > >> -- > >> ***** > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and > >> mailing lists. > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 24 12:46:42 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 12:46:42 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my responsibility at BBN. At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional only during testing, demonstrations, etc. MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the time. ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, Intelligence). Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and decisions. The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver for research efforts. The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) Internet. In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that aspect of Internet History. /Jack Haverty On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN > supplied the network. > I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. > Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start > in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? > I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until > October 2005 at which point I joined Google. > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > > MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based > clone of > the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of > the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite > IMP), > with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > > Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for > MATNET.? > I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl > Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the > time.? > Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the > Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's > "technology > transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending > technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund > continued research. > > I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that > Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide > a way > to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken > Pogran may remember more. > > At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with > the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have > been a > follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > > Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not > remember) and > > MATNET (which I do remember)? > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via > Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > wrote: > > > >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via > Internet-history < > >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > wrote: > >> > >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. > We had a > >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I > gave a > >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest > Group Meeting > >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember > us asking > >> for > >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon > may have > >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada > implementation of > >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON > >> details > >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on > short > >> notice > >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>> barbara > >>> > >> > >> Hey Barbara: > >> > >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project > as a new > >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure > out if > >> different network topologies worked more or less well for > shipboard command > >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got > TCP/IP working > >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to > something else, > >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working > on the 80MB > >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also > had a Proteon > >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped > email for the > >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments > noted that > >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch > fire feature > >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the > fastest > >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much > to run on > >> it). > >> > >> Craig > >> > >> -- > >> ***** > >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society > activities and > >> mailing lists. > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > > > > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 13:00:14 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 16:00:14 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my portfolio after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(. Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and the other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET. v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! > > The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early > 80s. For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my > responsibility at BBN. > > At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 > operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the > NOC at BBN. That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et > al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to > "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following > in the footsteps of the ARPANET. > > Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl Vinson > (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use > satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea. So it was functional > only during testing, demonstrations, etc. > > MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio. Instead > of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, > MATNET nodes were onboard ships. Both were still in the "research" stage, > while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the > time. > > ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD > communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the > military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, > Intelligence). > > Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which we > then used as a target for developing Internet technology. It involved > soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and > all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence > organizations, etc. That's what drove our thinking and decisions. > > The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. > SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. PRNet > targeted the Army and maybe Air Force? All of that was a driver for > research efforts. > > The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were > illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research > results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) > Internet. > > In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects > into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another. I > ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the > technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology. So I > lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline". I'm curious how > that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the > research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational > systems. But I've not run across much written about that aspect of > Internet History. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > > I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN > supplied the network. > I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since I > remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the early > 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? > I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until > October 2005 at which point I joined Google. > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of >> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >> the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), >> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >> >> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET. >> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. >> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's "technology >> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >> continued research. >> >> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that >> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >> investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way >> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken >> Pogran may remember more. >> >> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >> the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a >> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >> conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >> >> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and >> > MATNET (which I do remember)? >> > >> > v >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> > >> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < >> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >> >> >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >> >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a >> >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >> >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a >> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group >> Meeting >> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us asking >> >> for >> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have >> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation >> of >> >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON >> >> details >> >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short >> >> notice >> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >> >>> barbara >> >>> >> >> >> >> Hey Barbara: >> >> >> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new >> >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if >> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard >> command >> >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP >> working >> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something >> else, >> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the >> 80MB >> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a >> Proteon >> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email >> for the >> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted >> that >> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire >> feature >> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest >> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run >> on >> >> it). >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ***** >> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and >> >> mailing lists. >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > > From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 24 14:42:14 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 24 Dec 2020 14:42:14 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> Yes, that all agrees with my recollections.?? Barry took over just about the time I was moved away from the research side. When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were functioning only for tests.? Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues.?? So IMHO SATNET was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user community was the Europeans. A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world end-user deployments.?? That was the target of the "pipeline" from research to the field.?? ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN.? The Internet gateways also made that journey. AFAIK, nothing else did.? SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about. During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications between terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits.?? That was applicable in situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy might be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised. When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming up, so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the pipeline.? So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field. /Jack On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote: > Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could > have told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my > portfolio after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(.? > > Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was > SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and > the other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET.? > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty > wrote: > > Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! > > The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in > the early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet > projects under my responsibility at BBN. > > At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 > operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed > 24x7 by the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project > (Ginny Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob > Hinden et al) with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational > and reliable as a service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. > > Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the > Carl Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability > to use satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it > was functional only during testing, demonstrations, etc. > > MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? > Instead of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al > in PRNets, MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in > the "research" stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were > considered "operational" at the time. > > ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD > communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces > of the military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, > Command, Control, Intelligence). > > Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario > which we then used as a target for developing Internet > technology.? It involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, > communicating with sailors in ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed > locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence organizations, etc.?? > That's what drove our thinking and decisions. > > The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the > DDN.? SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy > communications.? PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? > All of that was a driver for research efforts. > > The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions > were illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring > research results into operational use, i.e., to create the > (military-driven) Internet. > > In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" > projects into one part of the organization, and the "operational" > into another.?? I ended up in the "operational" side, being more > interested in bringing the technology into wide usage than in > creating more new technology.?? So I lost track of the researchy > projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm curious how that pipeline > progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the research > efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational > systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that aspect > of Internet History. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. >> BBN supplied the network. >> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at >> CNRI. Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten >> its start in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack >> H, do you know? >> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying >> until October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >> >> v >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> > > wrote: >> >> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a >> ship-based clone of >> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" >> networks of >> the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for >> Satellite IMP), >> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >> >> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) >> for MATNET.? >> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier >> USS Carl >> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at >> the time.? >> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even >> brought the >> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >> "technology >> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, >> sending >> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy >> to fund >> continued research. >> >> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do >> recall that >> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >> investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to >> provide a way >> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET >> node.?? Ken >> Pogran may remember more. >> >> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost >> contact with >> the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may >> have been a >> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet >> technology >> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >> conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >> >> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on >> to the >> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our >> memories. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >> remember) and >> > MATNET (which I do remember)? >> > >> > v >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >> Internet-history < >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > wrote: >> > >> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >> Internet-history < >> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > wrote: >> >> >> >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON >> protocol number >> >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the >> Navy. We had a >> >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to >> support TCP/IP >> >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In >> 1984, I gave a >> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >> Group Meeting >> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't >> remember us asking >> >> for >> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if >> Jon may have >> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >> implementation of >> >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had >> the EMCON >> >> details >> >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly >> and on short >> >> notice >> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >> >>> barbara >> >>> >> >> >> >> Hey Barbara: >> >> >> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first >> project as a new >> >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to >> figure out if >> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >> shipboard command >> >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and >> got TCP/IP working >> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned >> to something else, >> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP >> working on the 80MB >> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo >> also had a Proteon >> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I >> swapped email for the >> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using >> another >> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its >> comments noted that >> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and >> catch fire feature >> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) >> and Noel >> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had >> the fastest >> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing >> much to run on >> >> it). >> >> >> >> Craig >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ***** >> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >> activities and >> >> mailing lists. >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> > >> > >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 21:06:14 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 00:06:14 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> Message-ID: SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. There was also X.25/X.75 traffic between US and UK as I recall. I don't know when the first trans-Atlantic optical cables went into operation but it can't have been much sooner than mid-late 1980s? Does anyone on the list know more about the period of dependency on SATNET before trans-Atlantic cable connections were made? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > Yes, that all agrees with my recollections. Barry took over just about > the time I was moved away from the research side. > > When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service > mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were > functioning only for tests. Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be > "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for > keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the > NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues. So IMHO SATNET > was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user community > was the Europeans. > > A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world > end-user deployments. That was the target of the "pipeline" from research > to the field. ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN. The Internet > gateways also made that journey. > > AFAIK, nothing else did. SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the > projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about. > > During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the > SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications between > terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits. That was applicable in > situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy might > be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised. > > When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming up, > so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the > pipeline. So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field. > > /Jack > > > On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote: > > Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have > told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my portfolio > after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(. > > Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was > SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and the > other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET. > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > >> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early >> 80s. For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my >> responsibility at BBN. >> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the >> NOC at BBN. That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et >> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to >> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following >> in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea. So it was functional >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio. Instead >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships. Both were still in the "research" stage, >> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the >> time. >> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >> Intelligence). >> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology. It involved >> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and >> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence >> organizations, etc. That's what drove our thinking and decisions. >> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. PRNet >> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force? All of that was a driver for >> research efforts. >> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >> Internet. >> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another. I >> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the >> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology. So I >> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline". I'm curious how >> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the >> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational >> systems. But I've not run across much written about that aspect of >> Internet History. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >> >> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >> supplied the network. >> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since >> I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the >> early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >> >> v >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of >>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>> the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), >>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>> >>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET. >>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. >>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's "technology >>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>> continued research. >>> >>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that >>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>> investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way >>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken >>> Pogran may remember more. >>> >>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>> the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a >>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>> conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>> >>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>> >>> /Jack Haverty >>> >>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) >>> and >>> > MATNET (which I do remember)? >>> > >>> > v >>> > >>> > >>> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < >>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> > >>> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < >>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >> >>> >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a >>> >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a >>> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group >>> Meeting >>> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us >>> asking >>> >> for >>> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may >>> have >>> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>> implementation of >>> >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON >>> >> details >>> >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short >>> >> notice >>> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> >>> barbara >>> >>> >>> >> >>> >> Hey Barbara: >>> >> >>> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a >>> new >>> >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if >>> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard >>> command >>> >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP >>> working >>> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something >>> else, >>> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the >>> 80MB >>> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a >>> Proteon >>> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email >>> for the >>> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted >>> that >>> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire >>> feature >>> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest >>> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to >>> run on >>> >> it). >>> >> >>> >> Craig >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> ***** >>> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities >>> and >>> >> mailing lists. >>> >> -- >>> >> Internet-history mailing list >>> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >> >>> > >>> > >>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >> >> > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 22:16:40 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 19:16:40 +1300 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <0c0a0314-4dd3-69b4-0bd5-401dbb4f8819@gmail.com> On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in > more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the > internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went > "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein > essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. There was also > X.25/X.75 traffic between US and UK as I recall. I don't know when the > first trans-Atlantic optical cables went into operation but it can't have > been much sooner than mid-late 1980s? TAT-8 came live in 1989, and afaik the first fibre IP link was the Cornell to CERN T1 link (operational in February 1990) which was *technically* an NSFNET link, but was officially nothing of the kind. Initially it was funded by Herb Budd of IBM as part of his EASInet initiative. See my book, or for more nitty-gritty, Olivier Martin's: http://www.ictconsulting.ch/reports/European-Research-Internet-History.pdf But of course we were running IP over 64 kb/s copper transatlantic links before that. Certainly no CERN traffic ever knowingly depended on SATNET. > Does anyone on the list know more about the period of dependency on SATNET > before trans-Atlantic cable connections were made? Not personally, but one of Peter Kirstein's papers** implies that it was operational in 1979, and "the experiment led to an experimental service [11], which operated until the late 80s." And if you look for "SATNET" in Olivier's book, he quotes this from Peter: "...the first meeting between NSF people and Europeans in October 1984 should be classed as a milestone. This meeting was on a Friday/Saturday, preceding an ARPA SATNET project meeting on the Monday/Tuesday." ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 https://ban.ai/multics/doc/kirstein-arpanet.pdf Please enjoy the holidays, and best wishes for 2021. Brian > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > >> Yes, that all agrees with my recollections. Barry took over just about >> the time I was moved away from the research side. >> >> When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service >> mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were >> functioning only for tests. Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be >> "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for >> keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the >> NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues. So IMHO SATNET >> was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user community >> was the Europeans. >> >> A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world >> end-user deployments. That was the target of the "pipeline" from research >> to the field. ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN. The Internet >> gateways also made that journey. >> >> AFAIK, nothing else did. SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the >> projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about. >> >> During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the >> SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications between >> terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits. That was applicable in >> situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy might >> be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised. >> >> When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming up, >> so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the >> pipeline. So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field. >> >> /Jack >> >> >> On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote: >> >> Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have >> told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my portfolio >> after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(. >> >> Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was >> SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and the >> other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET. >> >> v >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty wrote: >> >>> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >>> >>> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early >>> 80s. For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my >>> responsibility at BBN. >>> >>> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >>> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the >>> NOC at BBN. That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et >>> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to >>> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following >>> in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >>> >>> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >>> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >>> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea. So it was functional >>> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >>> >>> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio. Instead >>> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >>> MATNET nodes were onboard ships. Both were still in the "research" stage, >>> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the >>> time. >>> >>> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >>> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >>> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >>> Intelligence). >>> >>> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >>> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology. It involved >>> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and >>> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence >>> organizations, etc. That's what drove our thinking and decisions. >>> >>> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. >>> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. PRNet >>> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force? All of that was a driver for >>> research efforts. >>> >>> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >>> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >>> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >>> Internet. >>> >>> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >>> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another. I >>> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the >>> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology. So I >>> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline". I'm curious how >>> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the >>> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational >>> systems. But I've not run across much written about that aspect of >>> Internet History. >>> >>> /Jack Haverty >>> >>> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >>> >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >>> supplied the network. >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. Since >>> I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the >>> early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>> >>>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone of >>>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>>> the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite IMP), >>>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>>> >>>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for MATNET. >>>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. >>>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's "technology >>>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>>> continued research. >>>> >>>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that >>>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>>> investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a way >>>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken >>>> Pogran may remember more. >>>> >>>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>>> the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been a >>>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>>> conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>>> >>>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>>> >>>> /Jack Haverty >>>> >>>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>>>> was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) >>>> and >>>>> MATNET (which I do remember)? >>>>> >>>>> v >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history < >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>>>>>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a >>>>>>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>>>>>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I gave a >>>>>>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group >>>> Meeting >>>>>>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us >>>> asking >>>>>> for >>>>>>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may >>>> have >>>>>>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>>> implementation of >>>>>>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON >>>>>> details >>>>>>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short >>>>>> notice >>>>>>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>>>>>> barbara >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Hey Barbara: >>>>>> >>>>>> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a >>>> new >>>>>> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out if >>>>>> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard >>>> command >>>>>> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP >>>> working >>>>>> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something >>>> else, >>>>>> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the >>>> 80MB >>>>>> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a >>>> Proteon >>>>>> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email >>>> for the >>>>>> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>>>>> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted >>>> that >>>>>> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire >>>> feature >>>>>> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>>>>> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest >>>>>> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to >>>> run on >>>>>> it). >>>>>> >>>>>> Craig >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ***** >>>>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities >>>> and >>>>>> mailing lists. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Internet-history mailing list >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>> >>> >>> >> From vgcerf at gmail.com Thu Dec 24 22:36:41 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 01:36:41 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <0c0a0314-4dd3-69b4-0bd5-401dbb4f8819@gmail.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> <0c0a0314-4dd3-69b4-0bd5-401dbb4f8819@gmail.com> Message-ID: thanks so much, Brian- and best wishes for 2021! vint On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 1:16 AM Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote: > On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in > > more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the > > internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went > > "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein > > essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. There was > also > > X.25/X.75 traffic between US and UK as I recall. I don't know when the > > first trans-Atlantic optical cables went into operation but it can't have > > been much sooner than mid-late 1980s? > > TAT-8 came live in 1989, and afaik the first fibre IP link was the > Cornell to CERN T1 link (operational in February 1990) which was > *technically* an NSFNET link, but was officially nothing of the kind. > Initially it was funded by Herb Budd of IBM as part of his EASInet > initiative. > > See my book, or for more nitty-gritty, Olivier Martin's: > http://www.ictconsulting.ch/reports/European-Research-Internet-History.pdf > > But of course we were running IP over 64 kb/s copper transatlantic links > before that. Certainly no CERN traffic ever knowingly depended on SATNET. > > > Does anyone on the list know more about the period of dependency on > SATNET > > before trans-Atlantic cable connections were made? > > Not personally, but one of Peter Kirstein's papers** implies that it was > operational in 1979, and "the experiment led to an experimental > service [11], which operated until the late 80s." And if you look for > "SATNET" in Olivier's book, he quotes this from Peter: > "...the first meeting between NSF people and Europeans in October 1984 > should be classed as a milestone. This meeting was on a Friday/Saturday, > preceding an ARPA SATNET project meeting on the Monday/Tuesday." > > ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 > https://ban.ai/multics/doc/kirstein-arpanet.pdf > > Please enjoy the holidays, and best wishes for 2021. > > Brian > > > > > v > > > > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 5:42 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > > > >> Yes, that all agrees with my recollections. Barry took over just about > >> the time I was moved away from the research side. > >> > >> When I said "operational", I was thinking of the 24x7 reliable service > >> mode, in contrast to the experimental mode where the networks were > >> functioning only for tests. Getting SATNET and the core Gateways to be > >> "operational" involved developing tools, procedures, and mechanisms for > >> keeping the network running as a reliable service, with operators in the > >> NOC doing constant monitoring and reacting to any issues. So IMHO > SATNET > >> was definitely "operational", and its first (and only AFAIK) user > community > >> was the Europeans. > >> > >> A better term might be "fielded", i.e., operational in the DoD-world > >> end-user deployments. That was the target of the "pipeline" from > research > >> to the field. ARPANET made that journey, becoming the DDN. The > Internet > >> gateways also made that journey. > >> > >> AFAIK, nothing else did. SATNET-->MATNET and PRNet-->FtBragg were the > >> projects that progressed the farthest that I knew about. > >> > >> During the research phase, I remember that one of the attractions of the > >> SATNET technology was that it could provide reliable communications > between > >> terrestrial sites, without relying on circuits. That was applicable in > >> situations like an embassy communicating with DC, where the embassy > might > >> be in a country where regular phone lines were compromised. > >> > >> When I was involved with DDN, I don't remember the problem ever coming > up, > >> so perhaps there was just no need to push that research further down the > >> pipeline. So I guess SATNET was never brought to the field. > >> > >> /Jack > >> > >> > >> On 12/24/20 1:00 PM, vinton cerf wrote: > >> > >> Thanks Jack - your memory is impressive. Sadly, Barry Leiner could have > >> told us about the period from about 1984-1990 as he picked up my > portfolio > >> after Ieft ARPA, but he passed away in 2003 :-(. > >> > >> Packet Radio was never operationalized as far as I am aware, nor was > >> SATNET except that for some time starting in 1982, Peter Kirstein and > the > >> other European contingents were reliant on it for access to ARPANET. > >> > >> v > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jack Haverty wrote: > >> > >>> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! > >>> > >>> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the > early > >>> 80s. For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my > >>> responsibility at BBN. > >>> > >>> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 > >>> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by > the > >>> NOC at BBN. That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar > et > >>> al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the > task to > >>> "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", > following > >>> in the footsteps of the ARPANET. > >>> > >>> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl > >>> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use > >>> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea. So it was > functional > >>> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. > >>> > >>> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio. > Instead > >>> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, > >>> MATNET nodes were onboard ships. Both were still in the "research" > stage, > >>> while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at > the > >>> time. > >>> > >>> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD > >>> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of > the > >>> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, > >>> Intelligence). > >>> > >>> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which > >>> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology. It > involved > >>> soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, > and > >>> all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence > >>> organizations, etc. That's what drove our thinking and decisions. > >>> > >>> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. > >>> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. > PRNet > >>> targeted the Army and maybe Air Force? All of that was a driver for > >>> research efforts. > >>> > >>> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were > >>> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research > >>> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) > >>> Internet. > >>> > >>> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects > >>> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into > another. I > >>> ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing > the > >>> technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology. So I > >>> lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline". I'm curious > how > >>> that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the > >>> research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational > >>> systems. But I've not run across much written about that aspect of > >>> Internet History. > >>> > >>> /Jack Haverty > >>> > >>> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > >>> > >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN > >>> supplied the network. > >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. > Since > >>> I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start in the > >>> early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? > >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until > >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. > >>> > >>> v > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > >>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>> > >>>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based clone > of > >>>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of > >>>> the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite > IMP), > >>>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > >>>> > >>>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for > MATNET. > >>>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl > >>>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the time. > >>>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the > >>>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's > "technology > >>>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending > >>>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund > >>>> continued research. > >>>> > >>>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall that > >>>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > >>>> investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide a > way > >>>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken > >>>> Pogran may remember more. > >>>> > >>>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with > >>>> the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have been > a > >>>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > >>>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > >>>> conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > >>>> > >>>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > >>>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. > >>>> > >>>> /Jack Haverty > >>>> > >>>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >>>>> was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) > >>>> and > >>>>> MATNET (which I do remember)? > >>>>> > >>>>> v > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history > < > >>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < > >>>>>> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > >>>>>>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We > had a > >>>>>>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > >>>>>>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I > gave a > >>>>>>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group > >>>> Meeting > >>>>>>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember us > >>>> asking > >>>>>> for > >>>>>>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may > >>>> have > >>>>>>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada > >>>> implementation of > >>>>>>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the EMCON > >>>>>> details > >>>>>>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on > short > >>>>>> notice > >>>>>>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>>>>>> barbara > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Hey Barbara: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a > >>>> new > >>>>>> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure out > if > >>>>>> different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard > >>>> command > >>>>>> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP > >>>> working > >>>>>> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to > something > >>>> else, > >>>>>> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on > the > >>>> 80MB > >>>>>> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also had a > >>>> Proteon > >>>>>> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped email > >>>> for the > >>>>>> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > >>>>>> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted > >>>> that > >>>>>> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire > >>>> feature > >>>>>> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel > >>>>>> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest > >>>>>> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to > >>>> run on > >>>>>> it). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Craig > >>>>>> > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> ***** > >>>>>> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities > >>>> and > >>>>>> mailing lists. > >>>>>> -- > >>>>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>>> -- > >>>> Internet-history mailing list > >>>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 25 03:57:03 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 06:57:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) Message-ID: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brian E Carpenter > ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 Very interesting, thanks for the pointer. It contains one thing that I'm curious about: "the Interface Message Processor (IMP). This were initially attached locally to Host computers by a parallel interface." (bottom of pg. 2) I'm unaware of this stage; I thought they always used the 1822 bit-serial interface? I'd look at my copy of the BBN proposal (in response to the DARPA RFP), which probably talks about whether the plans were always for that interface, but alas my son and his wife are asleep in the room it's stored in, so I can't. I suppose it's possible a first IMP or so were prototypes, and initially used a parallel interface, later replaced by the 1822 interface, but I don't recall hearing about that. Can anyone expand? Noel PS: That site, ban.ai/multics/, is completely mind-blowing. Check it out. From steve at shinkuro.com Fri Dec 25 04:13:22 2020 From: steve at shinkuro.com (Steve Crocker) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 07:13:22 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <94FC1997-78C7-455C-8701-FE3BE51BFF5E@shinkuro.com> Nope. Bit serial 100 kbs. Specifically designed to be as simple as possible because each site had to design its own half. 100 kbs was easy to implement and fast enough to keep up with the 50 kbs IMP-IMP circuits. I assume the description you?ve copied was just an unconscious writing error. Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 25, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > ? >> >> From: Brian E Carpenter > >> ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 > > Very interesting, thanks for the pointer. > > It contains one thing that I'm curious about: "the Interface Message Processor > (IMP). This were initially attached locally to Host computers by a parallel > interface." (bottom of pg. 2) I'm unaware of this stage; I thought they always > used the 1822 bit-serial interface? I'd look at my copy of the BBN proposal > (in response to the DARPA RFP), which probably talks about whether the plans > were always for that interface, but alas my son and his wife are asleep in the > room it's stored in, so I can't. I suppose it's possible a first IMP or so > were prototypes, and initially used a parallel interface, later replaced by > the 1822 interface, but I don't recall hearing about that. Can anyone expand? > > Noel > > PS: That site, ban.ai/multics/, is completely mind-blowing. Check it out. > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 06:52:25 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 14:52:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1543098212.4380410.1608907945246@mail.yahoo.com> Noel, The first IMP interface was the one you know about - the bit serial interface.? There was NEVER a parallel interface.? I think perhaps the author of the "parallel interface" mis-information was confused by the fact that there were several parallel SIGNALS which made up the interface - for example some of the different signals were:? "ready for next bit", "here's your bit", "bit received", ... Alex On Friday, December 25, 2020, 6:57:26 AM EST, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: ? ? > From: Brian E Carpenter ? ? > ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 Very interesting, thanks for the pointer. It contains one thing that I'm curious about: "the Interface Message Processor (IMP). This were initially attached locally to Host computers by a parallel interface." (bottom of pg. 2) I'm unaware of this stage; I thought they always used the 1822 bit-serial interface? I'd look at my copy of the BBN proposal (in response to the DARPA RFP), which probably talks about whether the plans were always for that interface, but alas my son and his wife are asleep in the room it's stored in, so I can't. I suppose it's possible a first IMP or so were prototypes, and initially used a parallel interface, later replaced by the 1822 interface, but I don't recall hearing about that. Can anyone expand? ? ? Noel PS: That site, ban.ai/multics/, is completely mind-blowing. Check it out. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 06:58:50 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 14:58:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <94FC1997-78C7-455C-8701-FE3BE51BFF5E@shinkuro.com> References: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94FC1997-78C7-455C-8701-FE3BE51BFF5E@shinkuro.com> Message-ID: <1796632443.4351611.1608908330929@mail.yahoo.com> Nope.? NOT 100kbs.? The speed of the data transfer was governed by the SIGNALS "ready for next bit" and "here's your bit".? The IMP made NO assumptions about how fast the Host could send or receive, and no assumptions about whether the speed would be constant or sporadic (for example, there might be a longer delay when accessing a new Host memory word than the delay between bits within a word).? Eventually there was a "Very Distant Host" interface designed to run over a clocked modem, but I don't think any modem with a speed higher than 50kbs was ever used. Alex On Friday, December 25, 2020, 7:13:41 AM EST, Steve Crocker via Internet-history wrote: Nope.? Bit serial 100 kbs.? Specifically designed to be as simple as possible because each site had to design its own half.? 100 kbs was easy to implement and fast enough to keep up with the 50 kbs IMP-IMP circuits. I assume the description you?ve copied was just an unconscious writing error. Steve Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 25, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history wrote: > > ? >> >> From: Brian E Carpenter > >> ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 > > Very interesting, thanks for the pointer. > > It contains one thing that I'm curious about: "the Interface Message Processor > (IMP). This were initially attached locally to Host computers by a parallel > interface." (bottom of pg. 2) I'm unaware of this stage; I thought they always > used the 1822 bit-serial interface? I'd look at my copy of the BBN proposal > (in response to the DARPA RFP), which probably talks about whether the plans > were always for that interface, but alas my son and his wife are asleep in the > room it's stored in, so I can't. I suppose it's possible a first IMP or so > were prototypes, and initially used a parallel interface, later replaced by > the 1822 interface, but I don't recall hearing about that. Can anyone expand? > >? ? Noel > > PS: That site, ban.ai/multics/, is completely mind-blowing. Check it out. > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From louie at transsys.com Fri Dec 25 10:36:59 2020 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 13:36:59 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1796632443.4351611.1608908330929@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20201225115703.B5D7418C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <94FC1997-78C7-455C-8701-FE3BE51BFF5E@shinkuro.com> <1796632443.4351611.1608908330929@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There was also an X.25 synchronous serial interface that appeared later. When we got ARPANET IMP 17 at the University of Maryland as part of the NSFNET Interconnections project, our host interface was X.25. This was matched to an X.25 Q-bus interface in a MicroVAX-II with the most complex device driver I ever had seen to date. We had a synchronous null modem between the IMP (referred to as a PSN at the time, I suppose) and our host. It had some thumbwheel switches to select the clock speed; 56K bps worked, sadly, selecting 78K bps did not. As it turned out, I think the X.25 interface ended up being a bad fit for this particular application (router between two networks). We also had one of the root DNS servers running at our site, so lots to sites wanted to exchange traffic with stuff behind our IMP port. There was essentially an X.25 VC that would be signaled to send traffic to a particular remote IMP/port combination. And there often were more active endpoints than number of active X.25 VCs that were supported, so there was some amount of thrashing that would happen. I don't recall if this was a limitation of the IMP, the X.25 board in the MicroVAX or the driver. louie On 25 Dec 2020, at 9:58, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: > Nope.? NOT 100kbs.? The speed of the data transfer was governed by > the SIGNALS "ready for next bit" and "here's your bit".? The IMP made > NO assumptions about how fast the Host could send or receive, and no > assumptions about whether the speed would be constant or sporadic (for > example, there might be a longer delay when accessing a new Host > memory word than the delay between bits within a word).? Eventually > there was a "Very Distant Host" interface designed to run over a > clocked modem, but I don't think any modem with a speed higher than > 50kbs was ever used. > Alex > > On Friday, December 25, 2020, 7:13:41 AM EST, Steve Crocker via > Internet-history wrote: > > Nope.? Bit serial 100 kbs.? Specifically designed to be as simple > as possible because each site had to design its own half.? 100 kbs > was easy to implement and fast enough to keep up with the 50 kbs > IMP-IMP circuits. > > I assume the description you?ve copied was just an unconscious > writing error. > > Steve > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 25, 2020, at 6:57 AM, Noel Chiappa via Internet-history >> wrote: >> >> ? >>> >>> From: Brian E Carpenter >> >>> ** "Early Experiences with the ARPANET and INTERNET in the UK", 1998 >> >> Very interesting, thanks for the pointer. >> >> It contains one thing that I'm curious about: "the Interface Message >> Processor >> (IMP). This were initially attached locally to Host computers by a >> parallel >> interface." (bottom of pg. 2) I'm unaware of this stage; I thought >> they always >> used the 1822 bit-serial interface? I'd look at my copy of the BBN >> proposal >> (in response to the DARPA RFP), which probably talks about whether >> the plans >> were always for that interface, but alas my son and his wife are >> asleep in the >> room it's stored in, so I can't. I suppose it's possible a first IMP >> or so >> were prototypes, and initially used a parallel interface, later >> replaced by >> the 1822 interface, but I don't recall hearing about that. Can anyone >> expand? >> >> ? ? Noel >> >> PS: That site, ban.ai/multics/, is completely mind-blowing. Check it >> out. >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 12:20:22 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 09:20:22 +1300 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <7989f880-a217-3d5f-3011-db286962eb0c@gmail.com> On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in > more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the > internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went > "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein > essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. Oh, I forgot to mention that there's a paper about "Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET". It interested me because David Bates, one of the authors, later worked in my team at CERN while I was still doing process control stuff. Adrian V. Stokes, David L. Bates, and Peter T. Kirstein. 1976. Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET. In Proceedings of the June 7-10, 1976, National computer conference and exposition (AFIPS '76). Association for Computing Machinery, New York, NY, USA, 597?603. DOI:https://doi.org/10.1145/1499799.1499882 Brian From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 12:32:39 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 20:32:39 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <7989f880-a217-3d5f-3011-db286962eb0c@gmail.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> <7989f880-a217-3d5f-3011-db286962eb0c@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1857449735.4424256.1608928359484@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, This paper is about the ARPANET TIP, not the SATNET node, which came later.? As I recall this paper was about monitoring and control of the terminal ports on the TIP as viewed from the external (user) side.? The Network Control Center at BBN in Cambridge MA was responsible for the operation, monitoring, and control of the TIP hardware and software, as it was for all of the ARPANET nodes. Merry Christmas,Alex On Friday, December 25, 2020, 3:20:44 PM EST, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in > more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the > internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went > "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein > essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. Oh, I forgot to mention that there's a paper about "Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET". It interested me because David Bates, one of the authors, later worked in my team at CERN while I was still doing process control stuff. Adrian V. Stokes, David L. Bates, and Peter T. Kirstein. 1976. Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET. In Proceedings of the June 7-10, 1976, National computer conference and exposition (AFIPS '76). Association for Computing Machinery, New York, NY, USA, 597?603. DOI:https://doi.org/10.1145/1499799.1499882 ? Brian -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Fri Dec 25 13:04:46 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Fri, 25 Dec 2020 16:04:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1857449735.4424256.1608928359484@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <6c52da20-0266-18c5-b9c2-14ea996de6c3@3kitty.org> <7989f880-a217-3d5f-3011-db286962eb0c@gmail.com> <1857449735.4424256.1608928359484@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Alex' recollection matches mine v On Fri, Dec 25, 2020 at 3:33 PM Alex McKenzie via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Brian, > This paper is about the ARPANET TIP, not the SATNET node, which came > later. As I recall this paper was about monitoring and control of the > terminal ports on the TIP as viewed from the external (user) side. The > Network Control Center at BBN in Cambridge MA was responsible for the > operation, monitoring, and control of the TIP hardware and software, as it > was for all of the ARPANET nodes. > Merry Christmas,Alex > > On Friday, December 25, 2020, 3:20:44 PM EST, Brian E Carpenter via > Internet-history wrote: > > On 25-Dec-20 18:06, vinton cerf via Internet-history wrote: > > SATNET was relied upon for access especially in the UK and later and in > > more limited ways in Italy and Germany. I don't remember whether the > > internal satellite link to NORSAR/NDRE was terminated when SATNET went > > "operational" but the NDRE/UCL link did go away and Peter Kirstein > > essentially ran the US/UK gateway including access controls. > > Oh, I forgot to mention that there's a paper about "Monitoring and access > control of the London node of ARPANET". It interested me because David > Bates, one of the authors, later worked in my team at CERN while I was > still doing process control stuff. > > Adrian V. Stokes, David L. Bates, and Peter T. Kirstein. 1976. > Monitoring and access control of the London node of ARPANET. > In Proceedings of the June 7-10, 1976, National computer conference > and exposition (AFIPS '76). > Association for Computing Machinery, New York, NY, USA, 597?603. > DOI:https://doi.org/10.1145/1499799.1499882 > > Brian > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Fri Dec 25 16:01:25 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 00:01:25 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> Happy Holidays!? Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. barbara On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects under my responsibility at BBN. At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional only during testing, demonstrations, etc. MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered "operational" at the time. ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, Intelligence). Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and decisions. The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver for research efforts. The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) Internet. In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that aspect of Internet History. /Jack Haverty On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN > supplied the network. > I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. > Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start > in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? > I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until > October 2005 at which point I joined Google. > > v > > > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > >? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >? ? clone of >? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >? ? IMP), >? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > >? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >? ? MATNET.? >? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >? ? time.? >? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >? ? "technology >? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >? ? continued research. > >? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >? ? a way >? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >? ? Pogran may remember more. > >? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >? ? been a >? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > >? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. > >? ? /Jack Haverty > >? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >? ? remember) and >? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >? ? > >? ? > v >? ? > >? ? > >? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >? ? Internet-history < >? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >? ? > wrote: >? ? > >? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >? ? Internet-history < >? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >? ? > wrote: >? ? >> >? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >? ? We had a >? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >? ? gave a >? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >? ? Group Meeting >? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >? ? us asking >? ? >> for >? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >? ? may have >? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >? ? implementation of >? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >? ? >> details >? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >? ? short >? ? >> notice >? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >? ? >>> barbara >? ? >>> >? ? >> >? ? >> Hey Barbara: >? ? >> >? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >? ? as a new >? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >? ? out if >? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >? ? shipboard command >? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >? ? TCP/IP working >? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >? ? something else, >? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >? ? on the 80MB >? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >? ? had a Proteon >? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >? ? email for the >? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >? ? noted that >? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >? ? fire feature >? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >? ? fastest >? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >? ? to run on >? ? >> it). >? ? >> >? ? >> Craig >? ? >> >? ? >> -- >? ? >> ***** >? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >? ? activities and >? ? >> mailing lists. >? ? >> -- >? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >? ? >? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >? ? >> >? ? > >? ? > > >? ? -- >? ? Internet-history mailing list >? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >? ? >? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Dec 26 09:44:51 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 09:44:51 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ho Ho Ho, You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid Internet Engineers. MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, since our role was just to provide the comm link. I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no call button for the flight attendant. A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't working, but all was well. Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was another possible good place for an Internet demo. ? Enjoy, /Jack Haverty On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > Happy Holidays!? > Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. > Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. > I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. > Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. > barbara > > On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! > > The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the > early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects > under my responsibility at BBN. > > At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 > operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by > the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny > Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) > with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a > service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. > > Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl > Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use > satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional > only during testing, demonstrations, etc. > > MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead > of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, > MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" > stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered > "operational" at the time. > > ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD > communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the > military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, > Intelligence). > > Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which > we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It > involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in > ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, > Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and > decisions. > > The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? > SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? > PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver > for research efforts. > > The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were > illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research > results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) > Internet. > > In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects > into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? > I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing > the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? > So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm > curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., > which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's > operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that > aspect of Internet History. > > /Jack Haverty > > On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >> supplied the network. >> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. >> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start >> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >> >> v >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> > > wrote: >> >> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >> ? ? clone of >> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >> ? ? IMP), >> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >> >> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >> ? ? MATNET.? >> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >> ? ? time.? >> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >> ? ? "technology >> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >> ? ? continued research. >> >> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >> ? ? a way >> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >> ? ? Pogran may remember more. >> >> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >> ? ? been a >> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >> >> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >> >> ? ? /Jack Haverty >> >> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >> ? ? remember) and >> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >> ? ? > >> ? ? > v >> ? ? > >> ? ? > >> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >> ? ? Internet-history < >> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> ? ? > wrote: >> ? ? > >> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >> ? ? Internet-history < >> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> ? ? > wrote: >> ? ? >> >> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >> ? ? We had a >> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >> ? ? gave a >> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >> ? ? Group Meeting >> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >> ? ? us asking >> ? ? >> for >> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >> ? ? may have >> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >> ? ? implementation of >> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >> ? ? >> details >> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >> ? ? short >> ? ? >> notice >> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >> ? ? >>> barbara >> ? ? >>> >> ? ? >> >> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: >> ? ? >> >> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >> ? ? as a new >> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >> ? ? out if >> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >> ? ? shipboard command >> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >> ? ? TCP/IP working >> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >> ? ? something else, >> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >> ? ? on the 80MB >> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >> ? ? had a Proteon >> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >> ? ? email for the >> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >> ? ? noted that >> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >> ? ? fire feature >> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >> ? ? fastest >> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >> ? ? to run on >> ? ? >> it). >> ? ? >> >> ? ? >> Craig >> ? ? >> >> ? ? >> -- >> ? ? >> ***** >> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >> ? ? activities and >> ? ? >> mailing lists. >> ? ? >> -- >> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> ? ? >> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> ? ? >> >> ? ? > >> ? ? > >> >> ? ? -- >> ? ? Internet-history mailing list >> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> ? ? >> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> From craig at tereschau.net Sat Dec 26 11:15:11 2020 From: craig at tereschau.net (Craig Partridge) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 12:15:11 -0700 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 26, 2020 at 10:45 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia. After > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > Similar story from the SIMNET project (SIMNET successfully created a networked simulation for training environment for DARPA, which the Army swiftly adopted - lots of fun networking challenges, but not the point of this story). As part of the SIMNET effort, BBN hired a recently retired military officer to advise on issues of making the simulations realistic. For some reason, the Army asked him to participate in a training exercise, I think at Fort Knox (where lots of tank training was done -- SIMNET's first contribution was to simulate groups of tanks). After the exercise, he submitted his required timesheet that showed him working 24-hours a day for three days straight. BBN's accounting group flagged it and told him he could not possibly have worked those hours. He invited him to consider that he'd been in a tactical environment, typically in a foxhole surrounded by explosions and gunfire and asked when they thought his breaks were? The timesheet was approved. Craig ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. From jack at 3kitty.org Sat Dec 26 14:32:09 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sat, 26 Dec 2020 14:32:09 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. /Jack On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Ho Ho Ho, > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > Internet Engineers. > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming > up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > call button for the flight attendant. > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > working, but all was well. > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > ? > Enjoy, > /Jack Haverty > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >> Happy Holidays!? >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. >> barbara >> >> On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the >> early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects >> under my responsibility at BBN. >> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by >> the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered >> "operational" at the time. >> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >> Intelligence). >> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, >> Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and >> decisions. >> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver >> for research efforts. >> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >> Internet. >> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's >> operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that >> aspect of Internet History. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >>> supplied the network. >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >>> ? ? clone of >>> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >>> ? ? IMP), >>> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>> >>> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >>> ? ? MATNET.? >>> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >>> ? ? time.? >>> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >>> ? ? "technology >>> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>> ? ? continued research. >>> >>> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >>> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >>> ? ? a way >>> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >>> ? ? Pogran may remember more. >>> >>> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >>> ? ? been a >>> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>> >>> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>> >>> ? ? /Jack Haverty >>> >>> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >>> ? ? remember) and >>> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > v >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >>> ? ? We had a >>> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >>> ? ? gave a >>> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >>> ? ? Group Meeting >>> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >>> ? ? us asking >>> ? ? >> for >>> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >>> ? ? may have >>> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>> ? ? implementation of >>> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >>> ? ? >> details >>> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >>> ? ? short >>> ? ? >> notice >>> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> ? ? >>> barbara >>> ? ? >>> >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >>> ? ? as a new >>> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >>> ? ? out if >>> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >>> ? ? shipboard command >>> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >>> ? ? TCP/IP working >>> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >>> ? ? something else, >>> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >>> ? ? on the 80MB >>> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >>> ? ? had a Proteon >>> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >>> ? ? email for the >>> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >>> ? ? noted that >>> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >>> ? ? fire feature >>> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >>> ? ? fastest >>> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >>> ? ? to run on >>> ? ? >> it). >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Craig >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> ***** >>> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >>> ? ? activities and >>> ? ? >> mailing lists. >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> >>> ? ? -- >>> ? ? Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Dec 26 21:42:03 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 05:42:03 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They decided they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff. I think it was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what. barbara On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. /Jack On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Ho Ho Ho, > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > Internet Engineers. > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming > up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > call button for the flight attendant. > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > working, but all was well. > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > ? > Enjoy, > /Jack Haverty > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>? Happy Holidays!? >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. >> barbara >> >>? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? >>? >>? Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the >> early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects >> under my responsibility at BBN. >> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by >> the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered >> "operational" at the time. >> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >> Intelligence). >> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, >> Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and >> decisions. >> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver >> for research efforts. >> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >> Internet. >> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's >> operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that >> aspect of Internet History. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >>> supplied the network. >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >>> ? ? clone of >>> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >>> ? ? IMP), >>> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>> >>> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >>> ? ? MATNET.? >>> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >>> ? ? time.? >>> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >>> ? ? "technology >>> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>> ? ? continued research. >>> >>> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >>> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >>> ? ? a way >>> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >>> ? ? Pogran may remember more. >>> >>> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >>> ? ? been a >>> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>> >>> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>> >>> ? ? /Jack Haverty >>> >>> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >>> ? ? remember) and >>> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > v >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >>> ? ? We had a >>> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >>> ? ? gave a >>> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >>> ? ? Group Meeting >>> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >>> ? ? us asking >>> ? ? >> for >>> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >>> ? ? may have >>> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>> ? ? implementation of >>> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >>> ? ? >> details >>> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >>> ? ? short >>> ? ? >> notice >>> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> ? ? >>> barbara >>> ? ? >>> >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >>> ? ? as a new >>> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >>> ? ? out if >>> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >>> ? ? shipboard command >>> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >>> ? ? TCP/IP working >>> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >>> ? ? something else, >>> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >>> ? ? on the 80MB >>> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >>> ? ? had a Proteon >>> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >>> ? ? email for the >>> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >>> ? ? noted that >>> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >>> ? ? fire feature >>> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >>> ? ? fastest >>> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >>> ? ? to run on >>> ? ? >> it). >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Craig >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> ***** >>> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >>> ? ? activities and >>> ? ? >> mailing lists. >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> >>> ? ? -- >>> ? ? Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sat Dec 26 21:49:13 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 05:49:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1483262369.4660134.1609048153508@mail.yahoo.com> Oh I should mention i just missed going up to watch mid-air refueling while supporting demos of the Reconstitution Protocol at SAC. I was like next in line on the list. barbara On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 09:42:56 PM PST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They decided they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff. I think it was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what. barbara ? ? On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. /Jack On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Ho Ho Ho, > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > Internet Engineers. > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming > up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > call button for the flight attendant. > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > working, but all was well. > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > ? > Enjoy, > /Jack Haverty > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>? Happy Holidays!? >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. >> barbara >> >>? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? >>? >>? Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the >> early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects >> under my responsibility at BBN. >> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by >> the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered >> "operational" at the time. >> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >> Intelligence). >> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, >> Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and >> decisions. >> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver >> for research efforts. >> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >> Internet. >> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's >> operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that >> aspect of Internet History. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >>> supplied the network. >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >>> ? ? clone of >>> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >>> ? ? IMP), >>> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>> >>> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >>> ? ? MATNET.? >>> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >>> ? ? time.? >>> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >>> ? ? "technology >>> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>> ? ? continued research. >>> >>> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >>> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >>> ? ? a way >>> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >>> ? ? Pogran may remember more. >>> >>> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >>> ? ? been a >>> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>> >>> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>> >>> ? ? /Jack Haverty >>> >>> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >>> ? ? remember) and >>> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > v >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >>> ? ? We had a >>> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >>> ? ? gave a >>> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >>> ? ? Group Meeting >>> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >>> ? ? us asking >>> ? ? >> for >>> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >>> ? ? may have >>> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>> ? ? implementation of >>> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >>> ? ? >> details >>> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >>> ? ? short >>> ? ? >> notice >>> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> ? ? >>> barbara >>> ? ? >>> >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >>> ? ? as a new >>> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >>> ? ? out if >>> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >>> ? ? shipboard command >>> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >>> ? ? TCP/IP working >>> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >>> ? ? something else, >>> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >>> ? ? on the 80MB >>> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >>> ? ? had a Proteon >>> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >>> ? ? email for the >>> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >>> ? ? noted that >>> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >>> ? ? fire feature >>> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >>> ? ? fastest >>> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >>> ? ? to run on >>> ? ? >> it). >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Craig >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> ***** >>> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >>> ? ? activities and >>> ? ? >> mailing lists. >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> >>> ? ? -- >>> ? ? Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From vgcerf at gmail.com Sun Dec 27 01:13:51 2020 From: vgcerf at gmail.com (vinton cerf) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 04:13:51 -0500 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <1483262369.4660134.1609048153508@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> <1483262369.4660134.1609048153508@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Barbara, I had not realized you were involved in that. Didn't Mike Frankel organize while at SRI. And I think Charlie Brown might still have been in the Air Force (or was he a civilian participant?) v On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:49 AM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Oh I should mention i just missed going up to watch mid-air refueling > while supporting demos of the Reconstitution Protocol at SAC. I was like > next in line on the list. > barbara > On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 09:42:56 PM PST, Barbara Denny via > Internet-history wrote: > > Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the > middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They decided > they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff. I think it > was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what. > barbara > On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid > Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. > /Jack > > On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Ho Ho Ho, > > > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > > Internet Engineers. > > > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983. We > > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > > > I do recall one event. There was some kind of important demo coming > > up, and the system wasn't working. So all of the contractors involved > > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > > by any commercial air. We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > > can't pull out. But he told a great story on his return. > > > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > > Ocean. Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > > non-stop flight. In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > > call button for the flight attendant. > > > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > > which was somewhere close by. He and the other engineers (who must have > > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > > demo was back in business. MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > > working, but all was well. > > > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > > was in the Middle Of Nowhere). Well out of helicopter range. > > > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia. After > > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > > good trips. Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > > > > Enjoy, > > /Jack Haverty > > > > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > >> Happy Holidays! > >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a > few comments. > >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of > packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the > existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet > applique. This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their > Fort Wayne, Indiana location. I do think this work may have lived on in > some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts. I never was in the > loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to > do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with > in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved > in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they > supported any efforts in this area). CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal > point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the > projects. Paul Sass was one key person. > >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl > Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories > about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the > ship. I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least > one Sun workstation on an ethernet. We also had one person from SRI > support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii. I hope my memory on this effort > isn't too faulty. > >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded the Global Mobile > Information Systems program (GloMo). Things started happening in 1994 but > I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995. SRI had the SE&I > contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the > whole effort. > >> barbara > >> > >> On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > >> > >> Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! > >> > >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the > >> early 80s. For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects > >> under my responsibility at BBN. > >> > >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 > >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by > >> the NOC at BBN. That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny > >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) > >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a > >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. > >> > >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl > >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use > >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea. So it was functional > >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. > >> > >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio. Instead > >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, > >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships. Both were still in the "research" > >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered > >> "operational" at the time. > >> > >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD > >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the > >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, > >> Intelligence). > >> > >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which > >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology. It > >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in > >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, > >> Intelligence organizations, etc. That's what drove our thinking and > >> decisions. > >> > >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN. > >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications. > >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force? All of that was a driver > >> for research efforts. > >> > >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were > >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research > >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) > >> Internet. > >> > >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects > >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another. > >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing > >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology. > >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline". I'm > >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., > >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's > >> operational systems. But I've not run across much written about that > >> aspect of Internet History. > >> > >> /Jack Haverty > >> > >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN > >>> supplied the network. > >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. > >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start > >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? > >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until > >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. > >>> > >>> v > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > >>> >>> > wrote: > >>> > >>> MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based > >>> clone of > >>> the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" > networks of > >>> the Internet. Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite > >>> IMP), > >>> with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > >>> > >>> Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for > >>> MATNET. > >>> I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS > Carl > >>> Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the > >>> time. > >>> Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought > the > >>> Captain of the Carl Vinson to one. This was part of ARPA's > >>> "technology > >>> transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending > >>> technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to > fund > >>> continued research. > >>> > >>> I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all. But I do recall > that > >>> Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > >>> investigating that. IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide > >>> a way > >>> to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node. Ken > >>> Pogran may remember more. > >>> > >>> At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact > with > >>> the Navy projects. I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have > >>> been a > >>> follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > >>> suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > >>> conditions). Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > >>> > >>> Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > >>> "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our > memories. > >>> > >>> /Jack Haverty > >>> > >>> On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >>> > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not > >>> remember) and > >>> > MATNET (which I do remember)? > >>> > > >>> > v > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via > >>> Internet-history < > >>> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>> > wrote: > >>> > > >>> >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via > >>> Internet-history < > >>> >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>> > wrote: > >>> >> > >>> >>> I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol > number > >>> >>> assignment. It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. > >>> We had a > >>> >>> project called Metanet that was looking at how to support > TCP/IP > >>> >>> networking when ships were under emission control. In 1984, I > >>> gave a > >>> >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest > >>> Group Meeting > >>> >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898). I don't remember > >>> us asking > >>> >> for > >>> >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon > >>> may have > >>> >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada > >>> implementation of > >>> >>> the gateway at that point in time. I don't think we had the > EMCON > >>> >> details > >>> >>> worked out yet. The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on > >>> short > >>> >> notice > >>> >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>> >>> barbara > >>> >>> > >>> >> > >>> >> Hey Barbara: > >>> >> > >>> >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project > >>> as a new > >>> >> employee at BBN in 1983. The job on the BBN side was to figure > >>> out if > >>> >> different network topologies worked more or less well for > >>> shipboard command > >>> >> centers. As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got > >>> TCP/IP working > >>> >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to > >>> something else, > >>> >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working > >>> on the 80MB > >>> >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun. Rick Adams at Seismo also > >>> had a Proteon > >>> >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network. And I swapped > >>> email for the > >>> >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another > >>> >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments > >>> noted that > >>> >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch > >>> fire feature > >>> >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and > Noel > >>> >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the > >>> fastest > >>> >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much > >>> to run on > >>> >> it). > >>> >> > >>> >> Craig > >>> >> > >>> >> -- > >>> >> ***** > >>> >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society > >>> activities and > >>> >> mailing lists. > >>> >> -- > >>> >> Internet-history mailing list > >>> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>> > >>> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>> >> > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Internet-history mailing list > >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >>> > >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 07:12:24 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 15:12:24 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] MATNET [Was Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)] In-Reply-To: <977147177.4194188.1608834843296@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> <977147177.4194188.1608834843296@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1084782454.4655976.1609081944375@mail.yahoo.com> I believe the prime contractor on the MATNET project I was involved with was E-Systems. On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:34:22 PM EST, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: Vint, It may be possible that the MATNET project eventually morphed into thev METANET work, but I don't know. I was involved in MATNET so I can say a bit about it, although my memory is rusty.? I think some of the money came from DARPA and some from NOSC in San Diego.? It is possible that Frank Deckelman (Navy) was the project sponsor.? The idea was to connect ships to each other and to the shore using a low bandwidth (19.6 kbs) channel on a military satellite, using the shared channel reservation system developed in the SATNET project.? I do not recall any worries about emission control issues; I do recall that on each ship the radio channel was useless every time the ship's radar swept over the satellite antenna.? The prime contractor was a radio company (the name escapes me) headquartered in St Petersburg FL which made the WSK-3 (Whisky 3) radios that were on the ships.? BBN was a subcontractor providing expertise in 2 areas:? the shared use of the satellite channel, and the use of encryption technology that let the packet headers go in the clear while ensuring that the data was encrypted (from the PLI project). One odd thing that I remember about the project - the BBN people hated the high humidity and temperature of Florida summers, and the radio people hated the snow, ice, and cold of New England winters.? But for some perverse reason the prime contractor scheduled all the winter project meetings at BBN and all the summer meetings in St Petersburg. I left the project before it was completed, so I don't know whether there was ever a working system, or what happened next. Happy Holidays!Alex ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:15:07 PM EST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:? ? I don't think so.? I don't remember the name MATNET. If any knows, I think it would be Jim (Mathis). Craig, as far as I know the? Metanet project only involved SRI.? Happy Holidays everyone! barbara ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 06:53:01 AM PST, Vint Cerf wrote:? was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and MATNET (which I do remember)? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > Hey Barbara: I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure out if different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped email for the first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on it). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:Vint Cerf1435 Woodhurst Blvd?McLean, VA 22102703-448-0965 until further notice ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From jack at 3kitty.org Sun Dec 27 10:13:25 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 10:13:25 -0800 Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6bcb36e7-d881-132c-945d-b09583ddb248@3kitty.org> Hi Barbara - just curious... What did they expect you to be able to *do* while sitting out there??? Debug code?? Install a patch?? Re-assemble the OS??? Balance a VT52 on the hood of a jeep? /Jack On 12/26/20 9:42 PM, Barbara Denny wrote: > Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the > middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They > decided they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff. > I think it was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what. > > barbara > > On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via > Internet-history wrote: > > > FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid > Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. > /Jack > > On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Ho Ho Ho, > > > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > > Internet Engineers. > > > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We > > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > > > I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming > > up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved > > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > > by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > > can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. > > > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > > Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > > non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > > call button for the flight attendant. > > > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > > which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have > > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > > demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > > working, but all was well. > > > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? > > > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After > > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > > good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > > ? > > Enjoy, > > /Jack Haverty > > > > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: > >>? Happy Holidays!? > >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add > a few comments. > >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter > of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including > enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio > protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and > ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think > this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS > production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I > remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and > Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s > at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any > Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they > supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the > focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with > on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. > >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the > Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague > memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to > and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on > board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had > one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope > my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. > >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global > Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening > in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in > 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 > so I wasn't around for the whole effort. > >> barbara > >> > >>? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty > via Internet-history > wrote:? > >>? > >>? Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! > >> > >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the > >> early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects > >> under my responsibility at BBN. > >> > >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 > >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by > >> the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny > >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) > >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a > >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. > >> > >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl > >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use > >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was > functional > >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. > >> > >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? > Instead > >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, > >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" > >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered > >> "operational" at the time. > >> > >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD > >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces > of the > >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, > >> Intelligence). > >> > >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which > >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It > >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with > sailors in > >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, > >> Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and > >> decisions. > >> > >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? > >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? > >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver > >> for research efforts. > >> > >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were > >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research > >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) > >> Internet. > >> > >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects > >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into > another.?? > >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing > >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? > >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm > >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., > >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's > >> operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that > >> aspect of Internet History. > >> > >> /Jack Haverty > >> > >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: > >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN > >>> supplied the network. > >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. > >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start > >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you > know? > >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until > >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. > >>> > >>> v > >>> > >>> > >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > >>> > >>> >> wrote: > >>> > >>> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based > >>> ? ? clone of > >>> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" > networks of > >>> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite > >>> ? ? IMP), > >>> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. > >>> > >>> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for > >>> ? ? MATNET.? > >>> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier > USS Carl > >>> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the > >>> ? ? time.? > >>> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even > brought the > >>> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's > >>> ? ? "technology > >>> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, > sending > >>> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy > to fund > >>> ? ? continued research. > >>> > >>> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do > recall that > >>> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start > >>> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide > >>> ? ? a way > >>> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken > >>> ? ? Pogran may remember more. > >>> > >>> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost > contact with > >>> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have > >>> ? ? been a > >>> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology > >>> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM > >>> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. > >>> > >>> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the > >>> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our > memories. > >>> > >>> ? ? /Jack Haverty > >>> > >>> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: > >>> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not > >>> ? ? remember) and > >>> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? > v > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via > >>> ? ? Internet-history < > >>> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >>> ? ? >> wrote: > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via > >>> ? ? Internet-history < > >>> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >>> ? ? >> wrote: > >>> ? ? >> > >>> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol > number > >>> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. > >>> ? ? We had a > >>> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support > TCP/IP > >>> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I > >>> ? ? gave a > >>> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest > >>> ? ? Group Meeting > >>> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember > >>> ? ? us asking > >>> ? ? >> for > >>> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon > >>> ? ? may have > >>> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada > >>> ? ? implementation of > >>> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had > the EMCON > >>> ? ? >> details > >>> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on > >>> ? ? short > >>> ? ? >> notice > >>> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > >>> ? ? >>> barbara > >>> ? ? >>> > >>> ? ? >> > >>> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: > >>> ? ? >> > >>> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project > >>> ? ? as a new > >>> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure > >>> ? ? out if > >>> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for > >>> ? ? shipboard command > >>> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got > >>> ? ? TCP/IP working > >>> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to > >>> ? ? something else, > >>> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working > >>> ? ? on the 80MB > >>> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also > >>> ? ? had a Proteon > >>> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped > >>> ? ? email for the > >>> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using > another > >>> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments > >>> ? ? noted that > >>> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch > >>> ? ? fire feature > >>> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) > and Noel > >>> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the > >>> ? ? fastest > >>> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much > >>> ? ? to run on > >>> ? ? >> it). > >>> ? ? >> > >>> ? ? >> Craig > >>> ? ? >> > >>> ? ? >> -- > >>> ? ? >> ***** > >>> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society > >>> ? ? activities and > >>> ? ? >> mailing lists. > >>> ? ? >> -- > >>> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list > >>> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>> ? ? >> > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? > > >>> > >>> ? ? -- > >>> ? ? Internet-history mailing list > >>> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > >>> ? ? > > >>> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >>> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 13:07:46 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 21:07:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> <1483262369.4660134.1609048153508@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <905017473.4796196.1609103266329@mail.yahoo.com> I am not sure who organized the mid-air refueling opportunity.? The Mobile IP/Reconstitution Protocol project spanned Don Nielson's and Mike Frankel's group. When Don got promoted, his group, which included me and I think all the projects in the group, were put in Mike Frankel's group. Boyd Fair took over the managementrole of the project when this transition occurred. When I heard about the mid-air refueling, it was during the time period with Mike Frankel's group.?? I am not sure I remember hearing Charlie Brown's name at the time. It is possible though. Since Jack mentioned the Looking Glass, I thought I would? also mention we accidentallyhailed the Looking Glass once when we were trying to reach the plane that had the packet radioon board. barbara On Sunday, December 27, 2020, 1:14:04 AM PST, vinton cerf wrote: Barbara, I had not realized you were involved in that. Didn't Mike Frankel organize while at SRI.And I think Charlie Brown might still have been in the Air Force (or was he a civilian participant?) v On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:49 AM Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: ?Oh I should mention i just missed going up to watch mid-air refueling while supporting demos of the Reconstitution Protocol at SAC. I was like next in line on the list. barbara ? ? On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 09:42:56 PM PST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:? ? Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They decided they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff. I think it was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what. barbara ? ? On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? ?FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. /Jack On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Ho Ho Ho, > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > Internet Engineers. > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming > up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > call button for the flight attendant. > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > working, but all was well. > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > ? > Enjoy, > /Jack Haverty > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>? Happy Holidays!? >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. >> barbara >> >>? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? >>? >>? Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the >> early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects >> under my responsibility at BBN. >> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by >> the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered >> "operational" at the time. >> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >> Intelligence). >> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, >> Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and >> decisions. >> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver >> for research efforts. >> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >> Internet. >> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's >> operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that >> aspect of Internet History. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >>> supplied the network. >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >>> ? ? clone of >>> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >>> ? ? IMP), >>> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>> >>> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >>> ? ? MATNET.? >>> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >>> ? ? time.? >>> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >>> ? ? "technology >>> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>> ? ? continued research. >>> >>> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >>> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >>> ? ? a way >>> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >>> ? ? Pogran may remember more. >>> >>> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >>> ? ? been a >>> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>> >>> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>> >>> ? ? /Jack Haverty >>> >>> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >>> ? ? remember) and >>> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > v >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >>> ? ? We had a >>> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >>> ? ? gave a >>> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >>> ? ? Group Meeting >>> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >>> ? ? us asking >>> ? ? >> for >>> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >>> ? ? may have >>> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>> ? ? implementation of >>> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >>> ? ? >> details >>> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >>> ? ? short >>> ? ? >> notice >>> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> ? ? >>> barbara >>> ? ? >>> >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >>> ? ? as a new >>> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >>> ? ? out if >>> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >>> ? ? shipboard command >>> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >>> ? ? TCP/IP working >>> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >>> ? ? something else, >>> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >>> ? ? on the 80MB >>> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >>> ? ? had a Proteon >>> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >>> ? ? email for the >>> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >>> ? ? noted that >>> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >>> ? ? fire feature >>> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >>> ? ? fastest >>> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >>> ? ? to run on >>> ? ? >> it). >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Craig >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> ***** >>> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >>> ? ? activities and >>> ? ? >> mailing lists. >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> >>> ? ? -- >>> ? ? Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Sun Dec 27 13:25:36 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Sun, 27 Dec 2020 21:25:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Protocol numbers (was IP version 7) In-Reply-To: <6bcb36e7-d881-132c-945d-b09583ddb248@3kitty.org> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <6e1d6142-dcab-c3a0-38bb-a81378770ed2@3kitty.org> <645303017.4449276.1608940885436@mail.yahoo.com> <423989402.4610215.1609047723348@mail.yahoo.com> <6bcb36e7-d881-132c-945d-b09583ddb248@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <1263578843.4801978.1609104336026@mail.yahoo.com> The setup was in an enclosed vehicle if I am remembering right.? I don't think they wanted to leave a truck with the equipment unattended in the middle of nowhere. ? I was mostly baby sitting.? I could monitor things like link connectivity, etc. and reboot the SINCGARS applique if things looked strangeor stopped working. I also would take notes about possible errors but I think this demo was uneventful in that regard.? I also think they did leave me with another radio in case I needed to talk to anyone. During the last Packet Radio demo in Germany, we did use hummers and we still had barely enough room to add the LPR. barbara On Sunday, December 27, 2020, 10:13:33 AM PST, Jack Haverty wrote: Hi Barbara - just curious... What did they expect you to be able to *do* while sitting out there??? Debug code?? Install a patch?? Re-assemble the OS??? Balance a VT52 on the hood of a jeep? /Jack On 12/26/20 9:42 PM, Barbara Denny wrote: Too bad I didn't think of that when I was located in a vehicle in the middle of an Army reservation at Fort Bragg for an exercise. They decided they had better come get me. They were firing some live stuff. I think it was some form of gas but right now I don't recall exactly what. barbara On Saturday, December 26, 2020, 02:32:35 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: FYI - one of the other old-timers jogged my memory -- that Intrepid Internet Engineer on the Carl Vinson was Peter Cudhea. /Jack On 12/26/20 9:44 AM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > Ho Ho Ho, > > You reminded me of a MATNET story, part of the history of the Intrepid > Internet Engineers. > > MATNET was installed on the Carl Vinson sometime prior to mid-1983.?? We > (BBN) never knew much about how it was used or the computers onboard, > since our role was just to provide the comm link. > > I do recall one event.?? There was some kind of important demo coming > up, and the system wasn't working.? So all of the contractors involved > (radios, antennas, packet node, etc.) were hurriedly called for tech > support, and engineers convened quickly on the Carl Vinson. > > A slight complication... The Carl Vinson at the time was in Diego > Garcia, pretty much on the opposite side of the planet, and unreachable > by any commercial air.? We sent one of our engineers, whose name I just > can't pull out.?? But he told a great story on his return. > > That "on-site tech support call" started out with a quick hop on a > shuttle to DC, and a taxi ride to Andrews AFB, where he had been > assigned a seat on some cavernous military plane heading to the Indian > Ocean.?? Actually, he had "the" seat - the only one on the plane, no > windows, surrounded by creates and pallets of cargo, and a very looonnng > non-stop flight.?? In-flight meals were available from the snack bar at > the Base before leaving, get what you want, no services on board, and no > call button for the flight attendant. > > A quick helicopter ride got him from Diego Garcia to the Carl Vinson, > which was somewhere close by.? He and the other engineers (who must have > had their own stories too) got the problem debugged eventually and the > demo was back in business.? MATNET was fine, something else wasn't > working, but all was well. > > Going home was the next step... But the Carl Vinson can move pretty > fast, and by then it was far away from Diego Garcia (meaning it really > was in the Middle Of Nowhere).? Well out of helicopter range.? > > So, ..... our intrepid engineer was accommodate in a jet of some kind, > and catapulted off the deck to fly (fast) back to Diego Garcia.?? After > that, the trip back to the US, in a similar fashion, was old hat. > > The only question then was "Do I get Hazardous Duty pay....?" > > Sine I was the manager at that time, I never got to go on the really > good trips.?? Even also missed the tour of the Looking Glass, which was > another possible good place for an Internet demo. > ? > Enjoy, > /Jack Haverty > > > On 12/25/20 4:01 PM, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: >>? Happy Holidays!? >> Backing up in the conversation a little bit as I would like to add a few comments. >> Besides ARPA/DARPA, I do think the Army was the biggest supporter of packet radio network research and testing at SRI, including enhancing the existing SINCGARS radio with modified packet radio protocols in a packet applique.? This prototype was done by SRI and ITT with people from their Fort Wayne,? Indiana location.? I do think this work may have lived on in some form in subsequent SINCGARS production contracts.? I never was in the loop for this part but I remember there was certainly lots of interest to do this. The Navy and Air Force projects were few and pretty much over with in the mid-80s at least at SRI if I remember correctly. (I wasn't involved in any Navy contracts involving packet radio so I don't know if they supported any efforts in this area).? ?CECOM at Fort Monmouth was the focal point for the funding and for the army personnel we worked with on the projects.? Paul Sass was one key person. >> I think the MATNET node might have already been installed on the Carl Vinson by the time of the SRI work . I am starting to have vague memories about some talk/drawings about how data could be gotten to and from the ship.? ?I think part of the equipment SRI installed on board was at least one Sun workstation on an ethernet.? ?We also had one person from SRI support a sailing from Alameda to Hawaii.? ?I hope my memory on this effort isn't too faulty. >> Barry Leiner returned to DARPA later and spearheaded? the Global Mobile Information Systems program (GloMo).? Things started happening in 1994? but I believe most of the research contracts started in 1995.? SRI had the SE&I contract for the program. I left SRI in 1996 so I wasn't around for the whole effort. >> barbara >> >>? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 12:47:13 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote:? >>? >>? Here's what I remember... it's been a long time! >> >> The SATNET and MATNET projects were active at the same time, in the >> early 80s.? For a year or two they were two if the Internet projects >> under my responsibility at BBN. >> >> At that point, SATNET was considered operational, part of the 24x7 >> operational "core gateways" part of the Internet, both managed 24x7 by >> the NOC at BBN.?? That occurred after the gateway project (Ginny >> Strazisar et al) was transferred to my group at BBN (Bob Hinden et al) >> with the task to "make the Internet 24x7 operational and reliable as a >> service", following in the footsteps of the ARPANET. >> >> Concurrently, MATNET was a research prototype, deployed on the Carl >> Vinson (not sure if any other ships), to evaluate the ability to use >> satellite-based TCP/IP technology on ships at sea.? So it was functional >> only during testing, demonstrations, etc. >> >> MATNET was essentially following the same path as Packet Radio.? Instead >> of network nodes and computers in jeeps, helicopters et al in PRNets, >> MATNET nodes were onboard ships.? Both were still in the "research" >> stage, while the (core) Gateways and SATNET were considered >> "operational" at the time. >> >> ARPA had a grand plan to use Internet technology to solve DoD >> communications needs for the future, integrating scattered pieces of the >> military into a cohesive C3I system (Communications, Command, Control, >> Intelligence). >> >> Vint - I remember your presentation of a target military scenario which >> we then used as a target for developing Internet technology.? It >> involved soldiers in jeeps, planes, et al, communicating with sailors in >> ships, and all parts of DoD in fixed locations, e.g., the Pentagon, >> Intelligence organizations, etc.?? That's what drove our thinking and >> decisions. >> >> The ARPANET was a core part of that picture, evolving into the DDN.? >> SATNET had birthed MATNET to hopefully handle Navy communications.? >> PRNet targeted the Army and maybe Air Force??? All of that was a driver >> for research efforts. >> >> The ARPANET->DDN, PRNET->Army and SATNET->MATNET(Navy) transitions were >> illustrative of the "pipeline" that had been created to bring research >> results into operational use, i.e., to create the (military-driven) >> Internet. >> >> In July 1983, BBN re-organized, and collected the "researchy" projects >> into one part of the organization, and the "operational" into another.?? >> I ended up in the "operational" side, being more interested in bringing >> the technology into wide usage than in creating more new technology.?? >> So I lost track of the researchy projects and the "pipeline".?? I'm >> curious how that pipeline progressed through the later 80s/90s, e.g., >> which of the research efforts can be traced forward to use in today's >> operational systems.?? But I've not run across much written about that >> aspect of Internet History. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> On 12/24/20 10:41 AM, vinton cerf wrote: >>> I left ARPA around October 1982 to join MCI and build MCI Mail. BBN >>> supplied the network. >>> I left MCI (the first time) in June 1986 to join Bob Kahn at CNRI. >>> Since I remember the MATNET, I suspect it might have gotten its start >>> in the early 1980s while SATNET was still running. Jack H, do you know? >>> I left CNRI in October 1994 to join MCI a second time, staying until >>> October 2005 at which point I joined Google. >>> >>> v >>> >>> >>> On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 1:26 PM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> ? ? MATNET was a satellite-based network, essentially a ship-based >>> ? ? clone of >>> ? ? the land-based SATNET which was one of the earliest "core" networks of >>> ? ? the Internet.? Both involved IMPs (actually "SIMPS" for Satellite >>> ? ? IMP), >>> ? ? with the MATNET nodes onboard ships. >>> >>> ? ? Frank Deckelman was the Navy rep (and funnel for the money) for >>> ? ? MATNET.? >>> ? ? I remember that we put a MATNET node on the aircraft carrier USS Carl >>> ? ? Vinson, which was the Navy's test site for new technology at the >>> ? ? time.? >>> ? ? Frank participated in Internet-related meetings, and even brought the >>> ? ? Captain of the Carl Vinson to one.?? This was part of ARPA's >>> ? ? "technology >>> ? ? transfer" -- it was a full duplex communications mechanism, sending >>> ? ? technology into military use, and receiving $s from the Navy to fund >>> ? ? continued research. >>> >>> ? ? I also don't recall the term "METANET" at all.?? But I do recall that >>> ? ? Frank had a need for a "Shipboard LAN" and had us (BBN) start >>> ? ? investigating that.?? IIRC, it was an obvious next step to provide >>> ? ? a way >>> ? ? to hook up shipboard computers to the shipboard MATNET node.?? Ken >>> ? ? Pogran may remember more. >>> >>> ? ? At about that time (mid-1983) BBN reorganized and I lost contact with >>> ? ? the Navy projects.? I don't know, but I suspect METANET may have >>> ? ? been a >>> ? ? follow-on project to MATNET, to create LAN and Internet technology >>> ? ? suitable for shipboard operation (e.g., operating under EMCOM >>> ? ? conditions).?? Probably also involved Frank Deckelman. >>> >>> ? ? Vint - you had probably moved on to MCI, and I had moved on to the >>> ? ? "operational" arena of DDN et al, so "METANET" isn't in our memories. >>> >>> ? ? /Jack Haverty >>> >>> ? ? On 12/24/20 6:52 AM, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: >>> ? ? > was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not >>> ? ? remember) and >>> ? ? > MATNET (which I do remember)? >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > v >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? > internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? >> On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via >>> ? ? Internet-history < >>> ? ? >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? > wrote: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >>>? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number >>> ? ? >>> assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. >>> ? ? We had a >>> ? ? >>> project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP >>> ? ? >>> networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I >>> ? ? gave a >>> ? ? >>> presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest >>> ? ? Group Meeting >>> ? ? >>> hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember >>> ? ? us asking >>> ? ? >> for >>> ? ? >>> a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon >>> ? ? may have >>> ? ? >>> created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada >>> ? ? implementation of >>> ? ? >>> the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON >>> ? ? >> details >>> ? ? >>> worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on >>> ? ? short >>> ? ? >> notice >>> ? ? >>> due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. >>> ? ? >>> barbara >>> ? ? >>> >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Hey Barbara: >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project >>> ? ? as a new >>> ? ? >> employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure >>> ? ? out if >>> ? ? >> different network topologies worked more or less well for >>> ? ? shipboard command >>> ? ? >> centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got >>> ? ? TCP/IP working >>> ? ? >> on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to >>> ? ? something else, >>> ? ? >> so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working >>> ? ? on the 80MB >>> ? ? >> Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also >>> ? ? had a Proteon >>> ? ? >> Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped >>> ? ? email for the >>> ? ? >> first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another >>> ? ? >> Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments >>> ? ? noted that >>> ? ? >> an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch >>> ? ? fire feature >>> ? ? >> (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel >>> ? ? >> observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the >>> ? ? fastest >>> ? ? >> network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much >>> ? ? to run on >>> ? ? >> it). >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> Craig >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> ***** >>> ? ? >> Craig Partridge's email account for professional society >>> ? ? activities and >>> ? ? >> mailing lists. >>> ? ? >> -- >>> ? ? >> Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> ? ? >> >>> ? ? > >>> ? ? > >>> >>> ? ? -- >>> ? ? Internet-history mailing list >>> ? ? Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> ? ? >>> ? ? https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Mon Dec 28 10:21:53 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:21:53 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] MATNET [Was Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)] In-Reply-To: <1084782454.4655976.1609081944375@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> <977147177.4194188.1608834843296@mail.yahoo.com> <1084782454.4655976.1609081944375@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1021048187.5054635.1609179713630@mail.yahoo.com> Was E-systems near Tampa?? I do remember going there for a meeting but can't remember for which project.? It could have been Metanet since it was shortly after I joined SRI. barbara On Sunday, December 27, 2020, 10:27:42 PM PST, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote: I believe the prime contractor on the MATNET project I was involved with was E-Systems. ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:34:22 PM EST, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:? ? Vint, It may be possible that the MATNET project eventually morphed into thev METANET work, but I don't know. I was involved in MATNET so I can say a bit about it, although my memory is rusty.? I think some of the money came from DARPA and some from NOSC in San Diego.? It is possible that Frank Deckelman (Navy) was the project sponsor.? The idea was to connect ships to each other and to the shore using a low bandwidth (19.6 kbs) channel on a military satellite, using the shared channel reservation system developed in the SATNET project.? I do not recall any worries about emission control issues; I do recall that on each ship the radio channel was useless every time the ship's radar swept over the satellite antenna.? The prime contractor was a radio company (the name escapes me) headquartered in St Petersburg FL which made the WSK-3 (Whisky 3) radios that were on the ships.? BBN was a subcontractor providing expertise in 2 areas:? the shared use of the satellite channel, and the use of encryption technology that let the packet headers go in the clear while ensuring that the data was encrypted (from the PLI project). One odd thing that I remember about the project - the BBN people hated the high humidity and temperature of Florida summers, and the radio people hated the snow, ice, and cold of New England winters.? But for some perverse reason the prime contractor scheduled all the winter project meetings at BBN and all the summer meetings in St Petersburg. I left the project before it was completed, so I don't know whether there was ever a working system, or what happened next. Happy Holidays!Alex ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:15:07 PM EST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:? ? I don't think so.? I don't remember the name MATNET. If any knows, I think it would be Jim (Mathis). Craig, as far as I know the? Metanet project only involved SRI.? Happy Holidays everyone! barbara ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 06:53:01 AM PST, Vint Cerf wrote:? was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and MATNET (which I do remember)? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > Hey Barbara: I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure out if different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped email for the first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on it). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:Vint Cerf1435 Woodhurst Blvd?McLean, VA 22102703-448-0965 until further notice ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Mon Dec 28 10:26:01 2020 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 18:26:01 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] MATNET [Was Protocol numbers (was IP version 7)] In-Reply-To: <1021048187.5054635.1609179713630@mail.yahoo.com> References: <202012181915.0BIJFkS6068046@givry.fdupont.fr> <2865CE4F-09C4-4F6E-BA18-9A949BFF9B4B@gmail.com> <25585.1608689073@hop.toad.com> <1583767194.4044110.1608775686218@mail.yahoo.com> <1253403226.4191263.1608833662466@mail.yahoo.com> <977147177.4194188.1608834843296@mail.yahoo.com> <1084782454.4655976.1609081944375@mail.yahoo.com> <1021048187.5054635.1609179713630@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1030025881.5025891.1609179961723@mail.yahoo.com> Barbara, As noted in my first message, the E-Systems group that was the prime contractor on MATNET when I was involved was in St Petersburg FL, next to Tampa. Cheers,Alex On Monday, December 28, 2020, 1:22:25 PM EST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote: Was E-systems near Tampa?? I do remember going there for a meeting but can't remember for which project.? It could have been Metanet since it was shortly after I joined SRI. barbara ? ? On Sunday, December 27, 2020, 10:27:42 PM PST, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:? ? I believe the prime contractor on the MATNET project I was involved with was E-Systems. ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:34:22 PM EST, Alex McKenzie via Internet-history wrote:? ? Vint, It may be possible that the MATNET project eventually morphed into thev METANET work, but I don't know. I was involved in MATNET so I can say a bit about it, although my memory is rusty.? I think some of the money came from DARPA and some from NOSC in San Diego.? It is possible that Frank Deckelman (Navy) was the project sponsor.? The idea was to connect ships to each other and to the shore using a low bandwidth (19.6 kbs) channel on a military satellite, using the shared channel reservation system developed in the SATNET project.? I do not recall any worries about emission control issues; I do recall that on each ship the radio channel was useless every time the ship's radar swept over the satellite antenna.? The prime contractor was a radio company (the name escapes me) headquartered in St Petersburg FL which made the WSK-3 (Whisky 3) radios that were on the ships.? BBN was a subcontractor providing expertise in 2 areas:? the shared use of the satellite channel, and the use of encryption technology that let the packet headers go in the clear while ensuring that the data was encrypted (from the PLI project). One odd thing that I remember about the project - the BBN people hated the high humidity and temperature of Florida summers, and the radio people hated the snow, ice, and cold of New England winters.? But for some perverse reason the prime contractor scheduled all the winter project meetings at BBN and all the summer meetings in St Petersburg. I left the project before it was completed, so I don't know whether there was ever a working system, or what happened next. Happy Holidays!Alex ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 1:15:07 PM EST, Barbara Denny via Internet-history wrote:? ? I don't think so.? I don't remember the name MATNET. If any knows, I think it would be Jim (Mathis). Craig, as far as I know the? Metanet project only involved SRI.? Happy Holidays everyone! barbara ? ? On Thursday, December 24, 2020, 06:53:01 AM PST, Vint Cerf wrote:? was there any relationship between METANET (which I do not remember) and MATNET (which I do remember)? v On Thu, Dec 24, 2020 at 9:40 AM Craig Partridge via Internet-history wrote: On Wed, Dec 23, 2020 at 7:09 PM Barbara Denny via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >? I will throw out a guess about the mystery EMCON protocol number > assignment.? It might be related to SRI's work for the Navy. We had a > project called? Metanet that was looking at how to support TCP/IP > networking when ships were under emission control.? In 1984, I gave a > presentation about the work at a Gateway Special Interest Group Meeting > hosted by Jon Postel at ISI (see RFC 898).? I don't remember us asking for > a protocol number yet but we could have. I also wonder if Jon may have > created a placeholder for us. I was working on the Ada implementation of > the gateway at that point in time.? I don't think we had the EMCON details > worked out yet.? The project got cancelled unexpectedly and on short notice > due to a change in personnel if I remember correctly. > barbara > Hey Barbara: I didn't know you worked on METANET! That was my first project as a new employee at BBN in 1983.? The job on the BBN side was to figure out if different network topologies worked more or less well for shipboard command centers.? As I recall, Ken Pogran was the initial PM and got TCP/IP working on a bus network (Ungermann-Bass?) and then transitioned to something else, so Ben Woznick took over and I was hired to get TCP/IP working on the 80MB Proteon Ring. That was grand fun.? Rick Adams at Seismo also had a Proteon Ring and I gave him my driver for his network.? And I swapped email for the first time with Noel Chiappa -- as I recall, I was using another Proteon network interface driver for guidance and its comments noted that an old version of some Proteon board had a real halt and catch fire feature (if you set the initialization word wrong, smoke happened) and Noel observed that the comment was no longer valid. And I had the fastest network in Cambridge all to myself (but, alas, had nothing much to run on it). Craig -- ***** Craig Partridge's email account for professional society activities and mailing lists. -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to:Vint Cerf1435 Woodhurst Blvd?McLean, VA 22102703-448-0965 until further notice ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 12:55:37 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 09:55:37 +1300 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation Message-ID: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. Thanks Brian Carpenter From steffen at sdaoden.eu Mon Dec 28 13:11:20 2020 From: steffen at sdaoden.eu (Steffen Nurpmeso) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 22:11:20 +0100 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20201228211120.XKubK%steffen@sdaoden.eu> Brian E Carpenter wrote in <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75 at gmail.com>: |Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 |addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): | | One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the | 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each | field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This | is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet | address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. | |The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. For at least IPv6, and on the other hand, the [Emailcore] working group seems to continue to allow leading zeroes even though one of the many RFCs emposes very strict formatting (including forcing all-lowercase). I personally have never seen IPv4 with leading zeroes however (except in dialogs with 4*3 and all always filled). I really liked RFC 1884 on IPv6 which allowed uppercase and lowercase, compression and non-compression, etc. etc. Isn't it over-engineering to enforce strict syntax rules about two decades after a relatively liberal and tolerant syntax was established. Where is necessary freedom here, "leading zeroes are not considered valid", if this were the only problem. --steffen | |Der Kragenbaer, The moon bear, |der holt sich munter he cheerfully and one by one |einen nach dem anderen runter wa.ks himself off |(By Robert Gernhardt) From agmalis at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 13:24:33 2020 From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:24:33 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> Message-ID: Brian, I believe that it was RFC 780, page 21. It's also in RFC 790, page 2 (the same text you quoted from RFC 820). Cheers, Andy On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 3:55 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 > addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): > > One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the > 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each > field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This > is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet > address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. > > The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. > > Thanks > Brian Carpenter > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > From jack at 3kitty.org Mon Dec 28 13:54:33 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 13:54:33 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> Message-ID: <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and FTP) were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been during the late 70s.?? On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host 1 on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent.?? Something new was needed for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be either octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal.? A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common convention in programming languages at the time. The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with the difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero.?? I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user programs.? The notation is really a design decision of the user interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit fields for the underlying TCP code. Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal.? One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit number represented in decimal (no dotted quad).?? The early SRI TIU (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, which were annoyingly difficult to calculate.??? E.g., 10.0.0.5, easily recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to access.? It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit decimal number. Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of specifying a target host. The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted quad" notation because the quad form was often confusing.? E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where leading zeroes are ignored.? But in dotted quad, 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent.? 010 would be network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though.?? I think you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. /Jack On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 > addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): > > One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the > 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each > field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This > is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet > address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. > > The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. > > Thanks > Brian Carpenter From jeanjour at comcast.net Mon Dec 28 14:44:15 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 17:44:15 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <1384B126-8C08-470F-8B9A-1EB9DC5E1729@comcast.net> Yea, DEC liked octal. But it would have been so much better if they had settled on Hex. Would have made creating subnet masks much easier! ;-) > On Dec 28, 2020, at 16:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough > consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and FTP) > were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been > during the late 70s. On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, > you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host 1 > on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent. Something new was needed > for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. > > Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be either > octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal. > A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common > convention in programming languages at the time. > > The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with the > difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of > course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero. > > I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user > programs. The notation is really a design decision of the user > interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit > fields for the underlying TCP code. > > Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal. > > One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit > number represented in decimal (no dotted quad). The early SRI TIU > (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, > which were annoyingly difficult to calculate. E.g., 10.0.0.5, easily > recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit > decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to > access. It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I > remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit > decimal number. > > Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many > host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of > specifying a target host. > > The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted quad" > notation because the quad form was often confusing. > > E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where > leading zeroes are ignored. But in dotted quad, > 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent. 010 would be > network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. > > I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though. I think > you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, > Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. > > /Jack > > > On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 >> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): >> >> One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the >> 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each >> field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This >> is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet >> address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. >> >> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. >> >> Thanks >> Brian Carpenter > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From joly at punkcast.com Mon Dec 28 16:07:39 2020 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:07:39 -0500 Subject: [ih] =?utf-8?q?12_Streams_2020_=233_=E2=80=93_Celebrating_NSFnet?= =?utf-8?q?=2C_both_coming_and_going!?= Message-ID: What comes out of this is not only how vital the NSFnet was to the acceleration of Internet establishment, but how vital two people - Al Gore and Dennis Jennings - were to the whole process, Al Gore in securing funding and regulatory easement, and Dennis Jennings in his insistence that no node would receive that funding unless they implemented TCP IP. And then Gore further facilitated the transition to the commercial Internet we know today. ISOC Live posted: "Today, Monday December 28 2020, at 7:00pm EST (00:00 UTC) in the third installment of the Internet Society Livestreaming?s ?12 Days of Streams? 2020 highlights, we feature two celebrations of the National Science Foundation Network (NSFNET). From 1985-199" [image: livestream] Today, *Monday December 28 2020*, at *7:00pm EST* (00:00 UTC) in the third installment of the *Internet Society Livestreaming *?s ?*12 Days of Streams *? 2020 highlights, we feature two celebrations of the *National Science Foundation Network * (NSFNET). From 1985-1995 the NSFnet was a pivotal United States program that laid the foundation of the global Internet. was a pivotal United States program that laid the foundation of the global Internet. First we have excerpts *35th Anniversary Celebratory Event * on December 8 which marked its founding. Earlier in the year, on April 30 '*Internet Independence Day *', a panel marked its demise, which was the moment that the Internet fully transitioned from a government to a private enterprise. *SPEAKERS* *NSFNET 35th Anniversary Celebratory Event * *Vint Cerf*, Chief Internet Evangelist, Google *Al Gore*, former Vice President, USA *Dennis Jennings*, former First Program Director for Networking, NSF *Howard Pfeffer*, President and CEO, Internet2 *Andrew Sullivan*, President and CEO, Internet Society *Margaret Martonosi*, Assistant Director for Computer and Information Science and Engineering (CISE), NSF *MODERATOR:* *Ana Hunsinger*, Vice President, Community Engagement, Internet2 *Internet Independence Day* *Reed Hundt* (former FCC Chairman) *Esther Dyson* (first CEO of ICANN) *James Lewis* (SVP CSIS) *Tom Evslin* (founder ITXC) *Andrew Odlyzko* (former Bell Labs and Prof U MN) *Gary Shapiro*, President, Consumer Technology Association *MODERATOR:* *Daniel Berninger*, VCXC *VIEW ON LIVESTREAM: https://livestream.com/internetsociety/12streams2020-3 * *TWITTER #12STREAMS #NSFNET * @Internet2 @internetsociety @vgcerf @algore Dennis Jennings @NSF Howard Pfeffer @SullivanISOC @margmartonosi #internetindependence #iid25 @edyson @james_a_lewis @rehundt @GaryShapiro @tevslin Andrew Odlyzko *SIMULCASTS* *https://www.pscp.tv/ISOC_Live/ * *https://www.twitch.tv/isoclive * *https://www.facebook.com/InternetSociety/live * *ARCHIVE* *https://archive.org/details/12streams2020-3 * Comment See all comments *Permalink* https://isoc.live/13276/ -- -------------------------------------- Joly MacFie +12185659365 -------------------------------------- - From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Dec 28 16:35:26 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 13:35:26 +1300 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <4669ae2f-1207-4ba6-2457-d20af1c2046d@gmail.com> Thanks for the various replies. I wasn't there, but clearly some magic happened between the 8-bit network numbers in RFC776 (January 1981) and the emergence of Class A, B, C addressing in RFC790 (September 1981), and that called for some new notation such as dotted decimal. That magic is not well documented in the RFC series, but in IEN175, reporting on a January 1981 meeting, we find that "Vint Cerf led a further discussion on addressing. The main focus was on the tradeoff between a flat address space and a hierarchical one... Vint suggests that we have both in one! Let an address be composed of two parts: a hierarchical address (called an address) and a flat address (called an identifier)." I guess that became Class A, B, C by September, via IEN177, but it also accurately describes IPv6 addressing. Regards Brian Carpenter On 29-Dec-20 10:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough > consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and FTP) > were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been > during the late 70s.?? On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, > you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host 1 > on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent.?? Something new was needed > for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. > > Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be either > octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal.? > A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common > convention in programming languages at the time. > > The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with the > difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of > course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero.?? > > I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user > programs.? The notation is really a design decision of the user > interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit > fields for the underlying TCP code. > > Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal.? > > One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit > number represented in decimal (no dotted quad).?? The early SRI TIU > (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, > which were annoyingly difficult to calculate.??? E.g., 10.0.0.5, easily > recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit > decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to > access.? It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I > remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit > decimal number. > > Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many > host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of > specifying a target host. > > The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted quad" > notation because the quad form was often confusing.? > > E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where > leading zeroes are ignored.? But in dotted quad, > 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent.? 010 would be > network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. > > I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though.?? I think > you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, > Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. > > /Jack > > > On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 >> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): >> >> One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the >> 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each >> field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This >> is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet >> address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. >> >> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. >> >> Thanks >> Brian Carpenter > From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Mon Dec 28 16:38:49 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 00:38:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <391748315.5180035.1609202329350@mail.yahoo.com> In case you haven't noticed, the 1978, and 1982, ARPAnet directory is online and free in google books.? Kinda fun to poke around around in.? I have been looking at 1978. The host/imp table is included and other things you might not expect. barbara On Monday, December 28, 2020, 01:54:56 PM PST, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and FTP) were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been during the late 70s.?? On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host 1 on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent.?? Something new was needed for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be either octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal.? A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common convention in programming languages at the time. The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with the difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero.?? I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user programs.? The notation is really a design decision of the user interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit fields for the underlying TCP code. Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal.? One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit number represented in decimal (no dotted quad).?? The early SRI TIU (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, which were annoyingly difficult to calculate.??? E.g., 10.0.0.5, easily recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to access.? It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit decimal number. Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of specifying a target host. The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted quad" notation because the quad form was often confusing.? E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where leading zeroes are ignored.? But in dotted quad, 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent.? 010 would be network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though.?? I think you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. /Jack On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 > addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): > >? ? One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the >? ? 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each >? ? field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods.? This >? ? is called the "dotted decimal" notation.? For example, the internet >? ? address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. > > The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. > > Thanks >? ? Brian Carpenter -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From mbgreen at seas.upenn.edu Mon Dec 28 16:50:52 2020 From: mbgreen at seas.upenn.edu (Michael Greenwald) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 16:50:52 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <4669ae2f-1207-4ba6-2457-d20af1c2046d@gmail.com> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> <4669ae2f-1207-4ba6-2457-d20af1c2046d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ea688a3ad456c12ba1c2a9b068932ab@seas.upenn.edu> On 2020-12-28 16:35, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > Thanks for the various replies. I wasn't there, but clearly some magic > happened between the 8-bit network numbers in RFC776 (January 1981) and > the emergence of Class A, B, C addressing in RFC790 (September 1981), > and that called for some new notation such as dotted decimal. For what it's worth, I am fairly certain that I was parsing dotted decimal addrs (10.0.0.6) "long" before class A, B, or C addresses existed. The rough description that I got from Dave Clark in 79-ish was that the first byte was the network, and the remaining 24 bits were structured as subnet/host in some network-specific way (8 bit imp/... n bit host, or 16 bit subnet/8 bit host, or whatever). And for debugging/tracing on multics, I was definitely printing IP addrs as 4 dotted decimal numbers, even though I really, really, didn't like them. So I assume that the dotted-decimal notation was in use in more than one place, already, by 79. > > That magic is not well documented in the RFC series, but in IEN175, > reporting on a January 1981 meeting, we find that > "Vint Cerf led a further discussion on addressing. The main > focus > was on the tradeoff between a flat address space and a > hierarchical one... > Vint suggests that we have both in one! Let an address be > composed of two parts: a hierarchical address (called an address) > and a flat address (called an identifier)." > > I guess that became Class A, B, C by September, via IEN177, but it also > accurately describes IPv6 addressing. > > Regards > Brian Carpenter > > On 29-Dec-20 10:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough >> consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and >> FTP) >> were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been >> during the late 70s.?? On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, >> you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host >> 1 >> on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent.?? Something new was >> needed >> for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. >> >> Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be >> either >> octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal.? >> A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common >> convention in programming languages at the time. >> >> The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with >> the >> difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of >> course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero.?? >> >> I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user >> programs.? The notation is really a design decision of the user >> interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit >> fields for the underlying TCP code. >> >> Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal.? >> >> One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit >> number represented in decimal (no dotted quad).?? The early SRI TIU >> (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, >> which were annoyingly difficult to calculate.??? E.g., 10.0.0.5, >> easily >> recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit >> decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to >> access.? It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I >> remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit >> decimal number. >> >> Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many >> host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of >> specifying a target host. >> >> The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted >> quad" >> notation because the quad form was often confusing.? >> >> E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where >> leading zeroes are ignored.? But in dotted quad, >> 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent.? 010 would be >> network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. >> >> I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though.?? I think >> you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, >> Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. >> >> /Jack >> >> >> On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >>> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for >>> IPv4 >>> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January >>> 1983): >>> >>> One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the >>> 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of >>> each >>> field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. >>> This >>> is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the >>> internet >>> address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or >>> 10.2.0.52. >>> >>> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Brian Carpenter >> From vint at google.com Mon Dec 28 16:58:11 2020 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Mon, 28 Dec 2020 19:58:11 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <5ea688a3ad456c12ba1c2a9b068932ab@seas.upenn.edu> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> <4669ae2f-1207-4ba6-2457-d20af1c2046d@gmail.com> <5ea688a3ad456c12ba1c2a9b068932ab@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: i believe michael is correct. v On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 7:51 PM Michael Greenwald via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-28 16:35, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Thanks for the various replies. I wasn't there, but clearly some magic > > happened between the 8-bit network numbers in RFC776 (January 1981) and > > the emergence of Class A, B, C addressing in RFC790 (September 1981), > > and that called for some new notation such as dotted decimal. > > For what it's worth, I am fairly certain that I was > parsing dotted decimal addrs (10.0.0.6) "long" before > class A, B, or C addresses existed. The rough description > that I got from Dave Clark in 79-ish was that the > first byte was the network, and the remaining 24 bits > were structured as subnet/host in some network-specific > way (8 bit imp/... n bit host, or 16 bit subnet/8 bit host, > or whatever). And for debugging/tracing on multics, I > was definitely printing IP addrs as 4 dotted decimal > numbers, even though I really, really, didn't like them. > So I assume that the dotted-decimal notation was in use > in more than one place, already, by 79. > > > > > That magic is not well documented in the RFC series, but in IEN175, > > reporting on a January 1981 meeting, we find that > > "Vint Cerf led a further discussion on addressing. The main > > focus > > was on the tradeoff between a flat address space and a > > hierarchical one... > > Vint suggests that we have both in one! Let an address be > > composed of two parts: a hierarchical address (called an address) > > and a flat address (called an identifier)." > > > > I guess that became Class A, B, C by September, via IEN177, but it also > > accurately describes IPv6 addressing. > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > > > > On 29-Dec-20 10:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >> IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough > >> consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and > >> FTP) > >> were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been > >> during the late 70s. On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, > >> you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host > >> 1 > >> on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent. Something new was > >> needed > >> for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. > >> > >> Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be > >> either > >> octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal. > >> A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common > >> convention in programming languages at the time. > >> > >> The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with > >> the > >> difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of > >> course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero. > >> > >> I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user > >> programs. The notation is really a design decision of the user > >> interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit > >> fields for the underlying TCP code. > >> > >> Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal. > >> > >> One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit > >> number represented in decimal (no dotted quad). The early SRI TIU > >> (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, > >> which were annoyingly difficult to calculate. E.g., 10.0.0.5, > >> easily > >> recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit > >> decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to > >> access. It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I > >> remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit > >> decimal number. > >> > >> Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many > >> host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of > >> specifying a target host. > >> > >> The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted > >> quad" > >> notation because the quad form was often confusing. > >> > >> E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where > >> leading zeroes are ignored. But in dotted quad, > >> 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent. 010 would be > >> network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. > >> > >> I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though. I think > >> you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, > >> Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. > >> > >> /Jack > >> > >> > >> On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > >>> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for > >>> IPv4 > >>> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January > >>> 1983): > >>> > >>> One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the > >>> 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of > >>> each > >>> field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. > >>> This > >>> is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the > >>> internet > >>> address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or > >>> 10.2.0.52. > >>> > >>> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>> Brian Carpenter > >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Mon Dec 28 18:15:22 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 02:15:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> <4669ae2f-1207-4ba6-2457-d20af1c2046d@gmail.com> <5ea688a3ad456c12ba1c2a9b068932ab@seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <1106873142.5207968.1609208122582@mail.yahoo.com> Not sure if anyone is interested but I found a document written for the Army dated November 1977 that shows internet and packet radio headers.? In a very early internet header the first byte is identified as the network and the last 3 bytes are described as source or destination host (not all the fields in the current IPv4 header are present and the ordering is different).? If interested the document is in dtic:? Army Packet Radio Network Protocol Study by DE Rubin. barbara On Monday, December 28, 2020, 04:58:37 PM PST, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote: i believe michael is correct. v On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 7:51 PM Michael Greenwald via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-28 16:35, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Thanks for the various replies. I wasn't there, but clearly some magic > > happened between the 8-bit network numbers in RFC776 (January 1981) and > > the emergence of Class A, B, C addressing in RFC790 (September 1981), > > and that called for some new notation such as dotted decimal. > > For what it's worth, I am fairly certain that I was > parsing dotted decimal addrs (10.0.0.6) "long" before > class A, B, or C addresses existed. The rough description > that I got from Dave Clark in 79-ish was that the > first byte was the network, and the remaining 24 bits > were structured as subnet/host in some network-specific > way (8 bit imp/... n bit host, or 16 bit subnet/8 bit host, > or whatever). And for debugging/tracing on multics, I > was definitely printing IP addrs as 4 dotted decimal > numbers, even though I really, really, didn't like them. > So I assume that the dotted-decimal notation was in use > in more than one place, already, by 79. > > > > > That magic is not well documented in the RFC series, but in IEN175, > > reporting on a January 1981 meeting, we find that > >? ? ? "Vint Cerf led a further discussion on addressing.? The main > > focus > >? ? ? was on the tradeoff between a flat address space and a > >? ? ? hierarchical one... > >? ? ? Vint suggests that we have both in one!? Let an address be > >? ? ? composed of two parts: a hierarchical address (called an address) > >? ? ? and a flat address (called an identifier)." > > > > I guess that became Class A, B, C by September, via IEN177, but it also > > accurately describes IPv6 addressing. > > > > Regards > >? ? Brian Carpenter > > > > On 29-Dec-20 10:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >> IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough > >> consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and > >> FTP) > >> were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been > >> during the late 70s.? On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, > >> you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host > >> 1 > >> on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent.? Something new was > >> needed > >> for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. > >> > >> Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be > >> either > >> octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal. > >> A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common > >> convention in programming languages at the time. > >> > >> The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with > >> the > >> difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of > >> course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero. > >> > >> I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user > >> programs.? The notation is really a design decision of the user > >> interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit > >> fields for the underlying TCP code. > >> > >> Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal. > >> > >> One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit > >> number represented in decimal (no dotted quad).? The early SRI TIU > >> (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, > >> which were annoyingly difficult to calculate.? ? E.g., 10.0.0.5, > >> easily > >> recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit > >> decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to > >> access.? It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I > >> remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit > >> decimal number. > >> > >> Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many > >> host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of > >> specifying a target host. > >> > >> The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted > >> quad" > >> notation because the quad form was often confusing. > >> > >> E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where > >> leading zeroes are ignored.? But in dotted quad, > >> 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent.? 010 would be > >> network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. > >> > >> I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though.? I think > >> you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, > >> Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. > >> > >> /Jack > >> > >> > >> On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > >>> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for > >>> IPv4 > >>> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January > >>> 1983): > >>> > >>>? ? One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the > >>>? ? 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of > >>> each > >>>? ? field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. > >>> This > >>>? ? is called the "dotted decimal" notation.? For example, the > >>> internet > >>>? ? address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or > >>> 10.2.0.52. > >>> > >>> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>>? ? Brian Carpenter > >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From b_a_denny at yahoo.com Mon Dec 28 18:40:20 2020 From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 02:40:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Fw: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <1106873142.5207968.1609208122582@mail.yahoo.com> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> <4669ae2f-1207-4ba6-2457-d20af1c2046d@gmail.com> <5ea688a3ad456c12ba1c2a9b068932ab@seas.upenn.edu> <1106873142.5207968.1609208122582@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <583308043.5215797.1609209620973@mail.yahoo.com> I thought I hit reply all. Apologize for any duplicates. barbara ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Barbara Denny via Internet-history To: "greenwald at cis.upenn.edu" ; Vint Cerf Cc: Nelson H. F. Beebe via Internet-history ; Michael Greenwald Sent: Monday, December 28, 2020, 06:27:00 PM PSTSubject: Re: [ih] Dotted decimal notation Not sure if anyone is interested but I found a document written for the Army dated November 1977 that shows internet and packet radio headers.? In a very early internet header the first byte is identified as the network and the last 3 bytes are described as source or destination host (not all the fields in the current IPv4 header are present and the ordering is different).? If interested the document is in dtic:? Army Packet Radio Network Protocol Study by DE Rubin. barbara ? ? On Monday, December 28, 2020, 04:58:37 PM PST, Vint Cerf via Internet-history wrote:? i believe michael is correct. v On Mon, Dec 28, 2020 at 7:51 PM Michael Greenwald via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 2020-12-28 16:35, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > > Thanks for the various replies. I wasn't there, but clearly some magic > > happened between the 8-bit network numbers in RFC776 (January 1981) and > > the emergence of Class A, B, C addressing in RFC790 (September 1981), > > and that called for some new notation such as dotted decimal. > > For what it's worth, I am fairly certain that I was > parsing dotted decimal addrs (10.0.0.6) "long" before > class A, B, or C addresses existed. The rough description > that I got from Dave Clark in 79-ish was that the > first byte was the network, and the remaining 24 bits > were structured as subnet/host in some network-specific > way (8 bit imp/... n bit host, or 16 bit subnet/8 bit host, > or whatever). And for debugging/tracing on multics, I > was definitely printing IP addrs as 4 dotted decimal > numbers, even though I really, really, didn't like them. > So I assume that the dotted-decimal notation was in use > in more than one place, already, by 79. > > > > > That magic is not well documented in the RFC series, but in IEN175, > > reporting on a January 1981 meeting, we find that > >? ? ? "Vint Cerf led a further discussion on addressing.? The main > > focus > >? ? ? was on the tradeoff between a flat address space and a > >? ? ? hierarchical one... > >? ? ? Vint suggests that we have both in one!? Let an address be > >? ? ? composed of two parts: a hierarchical address (called an address) > >? ? ? and a flat address (called an identifier)." > > > > I guess that became Class A, B, C by September, via IEN177, but it also > > accurately describes IPv6 addressing. > > > > Regards > >? ? Brian Carpenter > > > > On 29-Dec-20 10:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > >> IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough > >> consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and > >> FTP) > >> were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been > >> during the late 70s.? On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, > >> you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host > >> 1 > >> on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent.? Something new was > >> needed > >> for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. > >> > >> Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be > >> either > >> octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal. > >> A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common > >> convention in programming languages at the time. > >> > >> The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with > >> the > >> difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of > >> course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero. > >> > >> I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user > >> programs.? The notation is really a design decision of the user > >> interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit > >> fields for the underlying TCP code. > >> > >> Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal. > >> > >> One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit > >> number represented in decimal (no dotted quad).? The early SRI TIU > >> (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, > >> which were annoyingly difficult to calculate.? ? E.g., 10.0.0.5, > >> easily > >> recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit > >> decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to > >> access.? It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I > >> remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit > >> decimal number. > >> > >> Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many > >> host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of > >> specifying a target host. > >> > >> The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted > >> quad" > >> notation because the quad form was often confusing. > >> > >> E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where > >> leading zeroes are ignored.? But in dotted quad, > >> 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent.? 010 would be > >> network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. > >> > >> I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though.? I think > >> you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, > >> Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. > >> > >> /Jack > >> > >> > >> On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: > >>> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for > >>> IPv4 > >>> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January > >>> 1983): > >>> > >>>? ? One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the > >>>? ? 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of > >>> each > >>>? ? field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. > >>> This > >>>? ? is called the "dotted decimal" notation.? For example, the > >>> internet > >>>? ? address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or > >>> 10.2.0.52. > >>> > >>> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. > >>> > >>> Thanks > >>>? ? Brian Carpenter > >> > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > -- Please send any postal/overnight deliveries to: Vint Cerf 1435 Woodhurst Blvd McLean, VA 22102 703-448-0965 until further notice -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history ? -- Internet-history mailing list Internet-history at elists.isoc.org https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From nigel at channelisles.net Mon Dec 28 23:25:06 2020 From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 07:25:06 +0000 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <1384B126-8C08-470F-8B9A-1EB9DC5E1729@comcast.net> References: <50b09f72-bf07-28f5-14ab-73f746b6de75@gmail.com> <384a9cfb-cd1a-392c-1141-8bfe7d46e2b7@3kitty.org> <1384B126-8C08-470F-8B9A-1EB9DC5E1729@comcast.net> Message-ID: <386aba57-7d56-6725-9d35-d3e200d0cac7@channelisles.net> I spent a lot of time writing code in Macro-11 in the early 80s. I personally found octal FAR easier to deal with intuitively than the hex used by microprocessor code. I wonde what was better about it? (Apart from 'it goes up to 16')?? On 12/28/20 10:44 PM, John Day via Internet-history wrote: > Yea, DEC liked octal. But it would have been so much better if they had settled on Hex. Would have made creating subnet masks much easier! ;-) > >> On Dec 28, 2020, at 16:54, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: >> >> IIRC, this convention was created over time by a coalescence of "rough >> consensus and running code" as the early user programs (Telnet and FTP) >> were being rewritten to use TCP instead of NCP, so it would have been >> during the late 70s. On the ARPANET, e.g., when a particular Telnet, >> you would type "O /", e.g., 1/6 to connect to MIT-DMS, host 1 >> on IMP 6, or "O 70" which was the equivalent. Something new was needed >> for specifying 32-bit IP addresses. >> >> Dotted quad was one early approach, where the 4 numbers could be either >> octal, if they had a leading zero, and otherwise decimal. >> A leading 0 indicated that the number was octal - also a common >> convention in programming languages at the time. >> >> The "dotted decimal" convention evolved from the "dotted quad", with the >> difference being that the numbers in the "...decimal" form were of >> course always decimal, regardless of the presence of a leading zero. >> >> I believe all of these forms were created as various people wrote user >> programs. The notation is really a design decision of the user >> interface, converting typed IP addresses into the appropriate 32-bit >> fields for the underlying TCP code. >> >> Some people liked decimal numbers, others liked octal. >> >> One particularly irritating choice was pure decimal, i.e., a 32-bit >> number represented in decimal (no dotted quad). The early SRI TIU >> (terminal concentrator) required the user to input decimal numbers, >> which were annoyingly difficult to calculate. E.g., 10.0.0.5, easily >> recognized as Host 0 on ARPANET IMP 5, had to be typed in its 32-bit >> decimal format when specifying what remote computer the user wanted to >> access. It was difficult to do such calculations in your head; I >> remember pulling out a calculator to create the appropriate many-digit >> decimal number. >> >> Eventually the "dotted quad" notation reached rough consensus and many >> host implementations of user apps (Telnet, FTP) permitted that form of >> specifying a target host. >> >> The "dotted decimal" convention eventually superceded the "dotted quad" >> notation because the quad form was often confusing. >> >> E.g., "ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52", where >> leading zeroes are ignored. But in dotted quad, >> 010.002.000.052 and 10.2.0.52 would not be equivalent. 010 would be >> network 8 rather than 10, and 052 would be 42 instead of 52. >> >> I don't remember who first produced dotted decimal though. I think >> you'd have to look at the applications programs of the time (FTP, >> Telnet) to see what each used for its UI. >> >> /Jack >> >> >> On 12/28/20 12:55 PM, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >>> Can anyone recall when and by whom the dotted decimal notation for IPv4 >>> addresses was invented? This text first appeared in RFC820 (January 1983): >>> >>> One commonly used notation for internet host addresses divides the >>> 32-bit address into four 8-bit fields and specifies the value of each >>> field as a decimal number with the fields separated by periods. This >>> is called the "dotted decimal" notation. For example, the internet >>> address of ISIF in dotted decimal is 010.002.000.052, or 10.2.0.52. >>> >>> The leading zeroes are not considered valid these days. >>> >>> Thanks >>> Brian Carpenter >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history -- Nigel Roberts nigel at channelisles.net +44 7973 263842 (mobile) From johnl at iecc.com Tue Dec 29 12:20:49 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 29 Dec 2020 15:20:49 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <386aba57-7d56-6725-9d35-d3e200d0cac7@channelisles.net> Message-ID: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> In article <386aba57-7d56-6725-9d35-d3e200d0cac7 at channelisles.net> you write: >I spent a lot of time writing code in Macro-11 in the early 80s. I >personally found octal FAR easier to deal with intuitively than the hex >used by microprocessor code. > >I wonder what was better about it? (Apart from 'it goes up to 16')?? Octal was great on machines where the word size was a multiple of 3, like the 36 bit 709x and PDP-6/10 or 12 bit PDP-8, with 6 or 9 bit characters. It's not so great on 8 bit bytes or 16 bit machines since you have to do masking and shifting in your head at byte boundaries. R's, John From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Dec 29 12:52:30 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 12:52:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> Message-ID: On 12/29/2020 12:20 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > It's not so great on 8 bit bytes or 16 bit machines since > you have to do masking and shifting in your head at byte boundaries. thereby, nicely distinguishing what makes for geek macho-hood. back then, at least. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 13:57:06 2020 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:57:06 -0500 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 3:52 PM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 12/29/2020 12:20 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > > It's not so great on 8 bit bytes or 16 bit machines since > > you have to do masking and shifting in your head at byte boundaries. > > thereby, nicely distinguishing what makes for geek macho-hood. back > then, at least. Indeed there was some geek-macho in working in hex _or_ in having a larger wordsize. MULTICS and DEC PDP-10 having 36bit words won on wordsize while fitting Octal better than Hexadecimal :-D. (I even remember being annoyed that DEC PDP-10 Fortran packed 5 x 7-bit-ASCII chars into a word, but the spare bit was NOT the sign bit that would be easily checked as an out of band flag bit. COBOL allowed both 6 x 6bit or 7 x 5bit iirc.) Since the PDP-11 was from DEC, Octal was the official binary representation *despite* the 16-bit wordsize; the frontpanel address/data load toggles were tinted in alternating triples same as on their 18- and 36-bit systems. (VAX11/780 dropped the frontpanel.) The advantage of Octal even with 8/16/32 bit words - such as the 16bit Macro-11 mentioned by Nigel - despite having a variant Most Significant Nibble since the octal aligned MSBit when wordisze isn't divisible by 3 - is that it only uses a subset of the decimal digits familiar from grade-school. While we do learn to do clock arithmetic in our heads with base 12 and base 24 for doing literally clock arithmetic, both in school and in real life, for timezone conversions and figuring durations that span Noon or Midnight, or Military 24:00 <=> Civil 12:00 AM/PM times, we do not do that with single-glyph digits invented to represent the hours 10 through 23, we do it punctuated with colons, HH:MM:SS, BCD style, as with Dotted Decimal notation of the OP; so that this Base12/Base24 work is only partially helpful in shifting mentally into hexadecimal arithmetic. (Also, use of 12:30 AM rather than 00:30 makes it not quite proper arithmetic!) Hexadecimal made sense for me when doing S/370 assembler in the late 1970s when i taught myself to count in binary on my fingers. 4 fingers (not incl thumbs) per hand = nibble, 8 fingers = byte. if *o* is a knuckle of a finger retracted and *&* is a finger extended, (don't get ahead of me here ...) oooo = 0 o&oo = 4 o&&& = 7 &00& = 9 &o&o = A, &&oo = C, &&&& = F . It helps to know your powers of two, and some of their smaller multiples of 3 (3, 6, xC=12., x18=24., x30=48., x60=96., xC0=192.) some of which we recognize from partially filled memory and intermediate RSA key sizes (the next are x180=384., x300=768.)! One can shift left and right on the fingers to learn these! I taught this trick to my offspring in gradeschool and they found that pretty much all Math teachers would let her "flip the bird" to obnoxious classmates if she counted 1 2 3 4 simultaneously out loud and on fingers in binary, with emphasis on FOUR as if playing golf (FORE!), because it returned the discordant discourse to Maths! Their imagination wasn't limited to 8 bit words or bytes, so they included thumbs (so let's make '*-*' a thumb that's down) thence a double-fisted pair of birds was 2^7+2^2 = 132 = 00&0- -o&oo , "ONE THIRTY TWO for those that deserve the very best". (And i'm not going to tell them that when we twists our wrists for display, the 5bit nibble bitfields reverse endianness without nibble swapping, to -0&00 00&o- *which works for 132 but not in general*!) And if I'm working with small *uint*s rather than *uchar*s, I do likewise with thumbs: 10 bits is enough for most of my favorite integers. Except 1792, alas, that's more than 1024. From jeanjour at comcast.net Tue Dec 29 13:56:59 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:56:59 -0500 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> Message-ID: +1 > On Dec 29, 2020, at 15:20, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: > > In article <386aba57-7d56-6725-9d35-d3e200d0cac7 at channelisles.net> you write: >> I spent a lot of time writing code in Macro-11 in the early 80s. I >> personally found octal FAR easier to deal with intuitively than the hex >> used by microprocessor code. >> >> I wonder what was better about it? (Apart from 'it goes up to 16')?? > > Octal was great on machines where the word size was a multiple of 3, > like the 36 bit 709x and PDP-6/10 or 12 bit PDP-8, with 6 or 9 bit > characters. It's not so great on 8 bit bytes or 16 bit machines since > you have to do masking and shifting in your head at byte boundaries. > > R's, > John > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From shiva at sewingwitch.com Tue Dec 29 14:14:36 2020 From: shiva at sewingwitch.com (Kenneth Porter) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 14:14:36 -0800 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> Message-ID: <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@[172.27.17.193]> --On Tuesday, December 29, 2020 4:57 PM -0500 Bill Ricker via Internet-history wrote: > Since the PDP-11 was from DEC, Octal was the official binary > representation *despite* the 16-bit wordsize; the frontpanel address/data > load toggles were tinted in alternating triples same as on their 18- and > 36-bit systems. (VAX11/780 dropped the frontpanel.) Didn't the 11, like the 10, also have some 3-bit fields in the instruction set? I recall that octal made it really easy to see field values in the 10's instructions. From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 14:33:23 2020 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:33:23 -0500 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@172.27.17.193> References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@172.27.17.193> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 5:15 PM Kenneth Porter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > Didn't the 11, like the 10, also have some 3-bit fields in the instruction > set? I recall that octal made it really easy to see field values in the > 10's instructions. > Yes, that too. 8 registers 0..7 and 8 addressing modes 0..7, so Octal dumps let you see the addressing modes w/o disassembly. And the Opcodes are 4 or 7 or 10 bits (1,3; 1,3,3; 1,3,3,3) and are very orthogonal so one learned to read opcodes in the dump too. From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Dec 29 15:00:37 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:00:37 -0800 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@172.27.17.193> Message-ID: <5e41a3fe-07dd-daa5-8781-4010e59f4835@3kitty.org> Any historian interested in the 70s era of bits and bytes in computers and networks should also read: https://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt which summarizes a lot of the chaos and warring factions that we programmers had to deal with back then, when lots of different computers had lots of different ideas about the "right" way to design such things.?? How to represent the data in a "notation" suitable for humans was only part of the problem. I remember once even playing around with "ternary" hardware in the late 60s -- where each "bit" could have one of three values: +1, 0, -1. ? Most people today probably think that computers always use binary [0,1], but was certainly possible to implement a computer using ternary logic.? What I built used current flow to represent a value - no current=0; current in one direction=+1; current in the other direction=-1. Thankfully that architecture died out so all we have now is binary, at least until someone discovers that computers don't necessarily even have to be binary.... /Jack Haverty From johnl at iecc.com Tue Dec 29 15:04:25 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 29 Dec 2020 18:04:25 -0500 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@[172.27.17.193]> Message-ID: <20201229230425.A3B883560942@ary.qy> In article <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@[172.27.17.193]> you write: >Didn't the 11, like the 10, also have some 3-bit fields in the instruction >set? I recall that octal made it really easy to see field values in the >10's instructions. It did. It had three bit register numbers and three bit address modes so if you were looking at instructions octal was great. At character strings, not so much. From beebe at math.utah.edu Tue Dec 29 15:16:19 2020 From: beebe at math.utah.edu (Nelson H. F. Beebe) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:16:19 -0700 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation Message-ID: Jack Haverty writes on Tue, 29 Dec 2020 15:00:37 -0800: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt That Internet Engineering Note appeared as a journal article as well, with nice artwork: On Holy Wars and a plea for peace [IEEE] Computer 14(10) 48--54 October 1981 https://doi.org/10.1109/C-M.1981.220208 I have passed it out to a number of students, and had it posted outside my office for some time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Nelson H. F. Beebe Tel: +1 801 581 5254 - - University of Utah FAX: +1 801 581 4148 - - Department of Mathematics, 110 LCB Internet e-mail: beebe at math.utah.edu - - 155 S 1400 E RM 233 beebe at acm.org beebe at computer.org - - Salt Lake City, UT 84112-0090, USA URL: http://www.math.utah.edu/~beebe/ - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From johnl at iecc.com Tue Dec 29 15:20:59 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 29 Dec 2020 18:20:59 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <5e41a3fe-07dd-daa5-8781-4010e59f4835@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> In article <5e41a3fe-07dd-daa5-8781-4010e59f4835 at 3kitty.org> you write: >Any historian interested in the 70s era of bits and bytes in computers >and networks should also read: > >https://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt [ the byte order argument ] I have been trying for years to figure out where the little-endian byte order came from. The first machine with addressible 8-bit bytes was S/360, which was big-endian. There were a bunch of 360 clones and semi-clones, also all big-endian. The first little-endian design was the PDP-11. I have never been able to find anything about why they used the opposite byte order. The DEC Computer Engineering book says nothing about it, nor do any of the DEC internal memos I've found at bitsavers. Getting a little-endian design right was surprisingly hard; some of the 11's arithmetic options got it wrong and had middle-endian values with the high-order 16 bit word stored first, but the low byte in each word stored first. The Vax finally got consistent little-endian addressing right, as do the Intel x86 and other subsequent chips. I've seen plenty of speculation about why they might have used a different byte order from prior designs, but no actual facts. R's, John >Thankfully that architecture died out so all we have now is binary, at >least until someone discovers that computers don't necessarily even have >to be binary.... Of course not, they could be decimal like the 650 and 1620. From touch at strayalpha.com Tue Dec 29 16:01:13 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:01:13 -0800 Subject: [ih] Octal vs Hex Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <5e41a3fe-07dd-daa5-8781-4010e59f4835@3kitty.org> References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> <8411E171269B5E107DC4731F@172.27.17.193> <5e41a3fe-07dd-daa5-8781-4010e59f4835@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <18184889-18EE-45C2-A251-CCBDBD2698F1@strayalpha.com> > On Dec 29, 2020, at 3:00 PM, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Thankfully that architecture died out so all we have now is binary, at > least until someone discovers that computers don't necessarily even have > to be binary?. It?s not dead yet; we can still pick the pockets and look for loose change, so to speak(1). CAMs typically have three values - 0, 1, and X (don?t care). Flash memory uses 4, 8, and even 16-valued multi-level cells (MLC). Joe (1) from the movie ?the Princess Bride", 1987, From jack at 3kitty.org Tue Dec 29 16:18:22 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 16:18:22 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> Message-ID: <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Back then, there were no established designs for computers, or any strong sense of The Right Way.? Or perhaps too many such strong senses with different designs. You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer to get some insight into why that little-endian decision was made.? In my own work, I remember that sometimes design decisions were made for very pragmatic reasons.? For example, the pinouts of logic ICs and the complexity of a PC board layout of traces could have motivated a design choice.? While I was working as a student at MIT Draper Labs on Apollo-related equipment, I remember design decisions? which were made in order to minimize the number of "pins" on a board connector.?? From experience, computer failures were strongly correlated with the number of pins and their associated connectors which corroded.? So minimizing pinouts was the driving design parameter, especially for stuff that ended up in space. Perhaps PDP-11 designers made similar design decisions to create a little-endian choice. I wrote the first TCP for PDP-11 Unix.?? I remember after getting it working, I made a pass through the code to remove a bunch of SWAB instructions (SWAp Bytes left-right in a 16-bit memory location), because the bytes in IP headers seemed to always be in the wrong place.? So as I was debugging, I SWABed wherever needed to get it to work.?? It was a common experience to PDP-11 programmers. /Jack On 12/29/20 3:20 PM, John Levine wrote: > In article <5e41a3fe-07dd-daa5-8781-4010e59f4835 at 3kitty.org> you write: >> Any historian interested in the 70s era of bits and bytes in computers >> and networks should also read: >> >> https://www.ietf.org/rfc/ien/ien137.txt > [ the byte order argument ] > > I have been trying for years to figure out where the little-endian > byte order came from. The first machine with addressible 8-bit bytes > was S/360, which was big-endian. There were a bunch of 360 clones and > semi-clones, also all big-endian. > > The first little-endian design was the PDP-11. I have never been able > to find anything about why they used the opposite byte order. The DEC > Computer Engineering book says nothing about it, nor do any of the DEC > internal memos I've found at bitsavers. Getting a little-endian design > right was surprisingly hard; some of the 11's arithmetic options got > it wrong and had middle-endian values with the high-order 16 bit word > stored first, but the low byte in each word stored first. The Vax > finally got consistent little-endian addressing right, as do the Intel > x86 and other subsequent chips. > > I've seen plenty of speculation about why they might have used a > different byte order from prior designs, but no actual facts. > > R's, > John > >> Thankfully that architecture died out so all we have now is binary, at >> least until someone discovers that computers don't necessarily even have >> to be binary.... > Of course not, they could be decimal like the 650 and 1620. From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 17:54:29 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:54:29 +1300 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> Message-ID: On 30-Dec-20 09:52, Dave Crocker via Internet-history wrote: > On 12/29/2020 12:20 PM, John Levine via Internet-history wrote: >> It's not so great on 8 bit bytes or 16 bit machines since >> you have to do masking and shifting in your head at byte boundaries. > > thereby, nicely distinguishing what makes for geek macho-hood. back > then, at least. On the PDP-8, the direct address was 7 bits long, so with 12-bit instructions you had to mentally mask the octal anyway to extract the direct address. It annoys me a bit that I can no longer recite the PDP-8 bootstrap loader in octal. There was no ROM, so you had to key it in every time, which I did several times a day as a grad student. Sorry, nothing whatever to do with Internet history. Brian From dhc at dcrocker.net Tue Dec 29 17:56:38 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2020 17:56:38 -0800 Subject: [ih] Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229202050.1989C350026F@ary.qy> Message-ID: <6142c7a2-f503-4f69-7d69-60afbd949184@dcrocker.net> On 12/29/2020 5:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Sorry, nothing whatever to do with Internet history. That's like saying that playing on the fields of Eton had nothing to do with Waterloo. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 18:40:44 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:40:44 +1300 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: > You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer... There was only one, really, Gordon Bell. I'm sure he didn't work alone but for a basic decision like endianness, I'm pretty sure it was him. Allegedly, he's "GBell At Outlook Dot com" http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/ Regards Brian From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 19:30:38 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:30:38 +1300 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> P.S. It happens that Bell learnt to program on an English Electric DEUCE, as a Fulbright scholar in Australia, and on DEUCE the bits were numbered from 1 to 32, with bit 1 normally written at the left because it came out of the serial memory first. Bit #1 represented 2^0; bit #32 represented 2^31. It wasn't a choice but a necessity, because a serial adder needs the LSB first. So serial machines were little-endian by nature, and extrapolating that to byte order might have seemed natural. The other thing about DEUCE is that it was a register-to-register machine, and Bell certainly copied that for the PDP-11. Regards Brian On 30-Dec-20 15:40, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer... > > There was only one, really, Gordon Bell. I'm sure he didn't work alone > but for a basic decision like endianness, I'm pretty sure it was him. > > Allegedly, he's "GBell At Outlook Dot com" > http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/ > > Regards > Brian > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Dec 29 20:52:24 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 17:52:24 +1300 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> Message-ID: Further P.S.: Harold McFarland is credited in some sources as the detailed designer of the PDP-11. Regards Brian Carpenter On 30-Dec-20 16:30, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > P.S. It happens that Bell learnt to program on an English Electric DEUCE, > as a Fulbright scholar in Australia, and on DEUCE the bits were numbered > from 1 to 32, with bit 1 normally written at the left because it came > out of the serial memory first. Bit #1 represented 2^0; bit #32 represented > 2^31. It wasn't a choice but a necessity, because a serial adder needs the > LSB first. So serial machines were little-endian by nature, and extrapolating > that to byte order might have seemed natural. The other thing about DEUCE > is that it was a register-to-register machine, and Bell certainly copied > that for the PDP-11. > > Regards > Brian > > On 30-Dec-20 15:40, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer... >> >> There was only one, really, Gordon Bell. I'm sure he didn't work alone >> but for a basic decision like endianness, I'm pretty sure it was him. >> >> Allegedly, he's "GBell At Outlook Dot com" >> http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/ >> >> Regards >> Brian >> From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Dec 30 02:58:18 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 05:58:18 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <0c76ed1d-acd4-9429-8f4e-e6b8e93a2360@gmail.com> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> <3EADD4F6-029B-46B3-A456-159F19B8EFA2@comcast.net> <0c76ed1d-acd4-9429-8f4e-e6b8e93a2360@gmail.com> Message-ID: That was what I always thought. (We had one of the very early PDP-11/20s, when it was just a PDP-11.) ;-) > On Dec 29, 2020, at 23:49, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > On 30-Dec-20 16:58, John Day wrote: >> Isn?t little endian forced by the byte-order addressing of the PDP-11? > > Exactly. But why did DEC decide to number the bytes that way > round? I'm guessing that it just seemed natural: byte 0 is obviously > less significant than byte 1, just as bit 0 is obviously less > significant than bit 1. Much of the world has chosen to disagree. > > Like much else, it's Turing's fault. He designed the first version > of ACE, whose final version mutated into DEUCE. It was Turing who > labelled the LSB #1 and wrote it at the left. I reckon Gordon Bell > just followed along. > > But of course, there is an alternative history, as so often: > https://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Electronic/PDP-11.html > which states that the actual design was done by Harold McFarland. > > Brian > >> >>> On Dec 29, 2020, at 22:30, Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history wrote: >>> >>> P.S. It happens that Bell learnt to program on an English Electric DEUCE, >>> as a Fulbright scholar in Australia, and on DEUCE the bits were numbered >>> from 1 to 32, with bit 1 normally written at the left because it came >>> out of the serial memory first. Bit #1 represented 2^0; bit #32 represented >>> 2^31. It wasn't a choice but a necessity, because a serial adder needs the >>> LSB first. So serial machines were little-endian by nature, and extrapolating >>> that to byte order might have seemed natural. The other thing about DEUCE >>> is that it was a register-to-register machine, and Bell certainly copied >>> that for the PDP-11. >>> >>> Regards >>> Brian >>> >>> On 30-Dec-20 15:40, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer... >>>> >>>> There was only one, really, Gordon Bell. I'm sure he didn't work alone >>>> but for a basic decision like endianness, I'm pretty sure it was him. >>>> >>>> Allegedly, he's "GBell At Outlook Dot com" >>>> http://gordonbell.azurewebsites.net/ >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> Brian >>>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > From clemc at ccc.com Wed Dec 30 07:46:31 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 10:46:31 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 9:41 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer... > > There was only one, really, Gordon Bell. I'm sure he didn't work alone > His two main grad students at CMU were Harold McFarland and Bill Strecker, and much of the original work on the PDP-11 was done there. I was always under the impression that McFarland was the higher bit, but I believe Strecker designed a great deal of logic also. IIRC it was Dave Cane (who did the SMI and later the BI and of course lead the 750 team), once told me that McFarland's most important contribution was the Unibus protocols (Dave had joined the HW team to work on the memory system for the 11). FWIW: Wulf and his students work on compilers and his paper on instruction sets regularity were definitely in the team's mind and of course the original BLISS-11 compiler was done at CMU during that same time. So some credit really needs to go to those folks too on the ISA. As for byte swapping, I remember that Stecker once gave us a lecture/seminar about the PDP-11 project in the early/mid-70s when I was a student. The question was tossed to him about why the 11 was byte-swapped and he replied that it had saved 10ns in the carry look-ahead logic on what would be the 11/20 processor design. My memory is that it was Bill Wulf who countered - "but you cost us hours in programmer time." ? From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 08:18:17 2020 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:18:17 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> <3EADD4F6-029B-46B3-A456-159F19B8EFA2@comcast.net> <0c76ed1d-acd4-9429-8f4e-e6b8e93a2360@gmail.com> Message-ID: > But of course, there is an alternative history, as so often: > > https://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Electronic/PDP-11.html > > which states that the actual design was done by Harold McFarland. > >From memory ... The grand architecture and the outline of the ISA of the PDP-11 is Bell's: it was his Register Transfer Logic theoretical / simulator machine for the grad course he taught at CMU. (Part of DEC's deep relationship with CMU.) McFarland made it real, but first proposed a design to make it real. (Does this echo McCarthy's LISP being interviewing as only a chalk-board language, until a student implemented it? Yes!) Bell as DEC VP Engineering (having lead multiple 18- & 36-bit mainframe-ish projects, incl PDP-6,-10) had to choose one of McFarland's and Edson DeCastro's designs for DEC's next product, a 16-bit mini product. DEC Marketing might have preferred E deC's 16-bit expanded PDP-8 architecture option, with potential migration path for existing customers. And it would have been the safer bet, as Castro and the PDP-8 team had recent minicomputer experience that Bell & McFarland did not. (Of course the departmental timesharing market that the 11 would open couldn't be foreseen, it wasn't just going to steal embedded and instrumentation sales from the 8.) Bell was pleased to pick the design based on his own academic theory. DeCastro was not pleased and so left and realized his design as the DG Nova. (I don't recall if it sold well into existing PDP-8 shops or not, but it at least sold well enough.) (DeCastro nearly sank DG by avoiding recapitulating the offense, he green lighted a 32-bit expansion of the 16-bit expansion of the original 12-bit design, which project failed. /Soul of a New Machine/ records the Eagle, the skunk works greenfield 32-bit design that worked. Small world, I worked with some of the Eagle OS team elsewhere, who recounted that Kidder interviewed them too, but dispared of explaining the tribulations of OS-writing in popular literature, so focused on the MicroKids. One of whom was on the ACM Northeast Regional Conference committee with me. Alas while we produced two Proceedings, there was only one conference. If only we'd had Zoom-like tele-conferencing then. Other brands are available! We'd hoped the recession reduction in travel budgets would make a regional conference attractive; nope, we sold one booth and had more speakers than prepaid attendees registered, so we reluctant canceled. But the accepted papers were published, and a copy went to everyone who'd registered. Mildly collectible? ?) (Speaking of collectible. Somewhere around here, I have a PDP-6 ALU bit-slice board signed by Gordon, with one of the feont-side bus-straps. Terrible design for Field Service, hard to board-swap! I was a young volunteer at TCM Marlboro and TCM Boston when Dr Mrs Gwen Bell was in charge, and helped Dr Mr Gordon in TCM housecleaning prior to the move to Boston. He was amused to hear i used his book for VCs and Founders as a guide to evaluating which startups to work for.) > From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Dec 30 08:20:18 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 08:20:18 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On 12/30/2020 7:46 AM, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: > His two main grad students at CMU were Harold McFarland and Bill Strecker, > and much of the original work on the PDP-11 was done there. So 3 people did the work. No wonder they settled on octal. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Dec 30 08:29:38 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 11:29:38 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> <3EADD4F6-029B-46B3-A456-159F19B8EFA2@comcast.net> <0c76ed1d-acd4-9429-8f4e-e6b8e93a2360@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31DEEA27-A90D-45CB-A736-DC9B0689566A@comcast.net> Good thing Bell went the direction he did. DG never understood how to do stacks and stacks were crucial to what we were building on the PDP-11. I always thought that putting auto-increment/decrement on the same side of the instruction was pretty dumb. Bell knew what he was doing. Now if they just understood it a bit better when then added the Mark Stack on the 11/45 life would have been even better. > On Dec 30, 2020, at 11:18, Bill Ricker wrote: > > > > > But of course, there is an alternative history, as so often: > > https://history-computer.com/ModernComputer/Electronic/PDP-11.html > > which states that the actual design was done by Harold McFarland. > > From memory ... > > The grand architecture and the outline of the ISA of the PDP-11 is Bell's: > it was his Register Transfer Logic theoretical / simulator machine for the grad course he taught at CMU. (Part of DEC's deep relationship with CMU.) > > McFarland made it real, but first proposed a design to make it real. > > (Does this echo McCarthy's LISP being interviewing as only a chalk-board language, until a student implemented it? Yes!) > > Bell as DEC VP Engineering (having lead multiple 18- & 36-bit mainframe-ish projects, incl PDP-6,-10) had to choose one of McFarland's and Edson DeCastro's designs for DEC's next product, a 16-bit mini product. > > DEC Marketing might have preferred E deC's 16-bit expanded PDP-8 architecture option, with potential migration path for existing customers. > And it would have been the safer bet, as Castro and the PDP-8 team had recent minicomputer experience that Bell & McFarland did not. > (Of course the departmental timesharing market that the 11 would open couldn't be foreseen, it wasn't just going to steal embedded and instrumentation sales from the 8.) > > Bell was pleased to pick the design based on his own academic theory. > > DeCastro was not pleased and so left and realized his design as the DG Nova. (I don't recall if it sold well into existing PDP-8 shops or not, but it at least sold well enough.) > > (DeCastro nearly sank DG by avoiding recapitulating the offense, he green lighted a 32-bit expansion of the 16-bit expansion of the original 12-bit design, which project failed. /Soul of a New Machine/ records the Eagle, the skunk works greenfield 32-bit design that worked. > Small world, I worked with some of the Eagle OS team elsewhere, who recounted that Kidder interviewed them too, but dispared of explaining the tribulations of OS-writing in popular literature, so focused on the MicroKids. > One of whom was on the ACM Northeast Regional Conference committee with me. Alas while we produced two Proceedings, there was only one conference. If only we'd had Zoom-like tele-conferencing then. Other brands are available! We'd hoped the recession reduction in travel budgets would make a regional conference attractive; nope, we sold one booth and had more speakers than prepaid attendees registered, so we reluctant canceled. But the accepted papers were published, and a copy went to everyone who'd registered. Mildly collectible? ?) > > (Speaking of collectible. Somewhere around here, I have a PDP-6 ALU bit-slice board signed by Gordon, with one of the feont-side bus-straps. Terrible design for Field Service, hard to board-swap! I was a young volunteer at TCM Marlboro and TCM Boston when Dr Mrs Gwen Bell was in charge, and helped Dr Mr Gordon in TCM housecleaning prior to the move to Boston. He was amused to hear i used his book for VCs and Founders as a guide to evaluating which startups to work for.) From johnl at iecc.com Wed Dec 30 11:03:14 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 30 Dec 2020 19:03:14 -0000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <3EADD4F6-029B-46B3-A456-159F19B8EFA2@comcast.net> <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> References: <3EADD4F6-029B-46B3-A456-159F19B8EFA2@comcast.net> <2d679f2f-df5d-b7c8-8653-0036ac83d6ce@gmail.com> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: In article , John Day via Internet-history wrote: >That was what I always thought. (We had one of the very early PDP-11/20s, when it was just a PDP-11.) ;-) > >> On Dec 29, 2020, at 23:49, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 30-Dec-20 16:58, John Day wrote: >>> Isn???t little endian forced by the byte-order addressing of the PDP-11? >> >> Exactly. But why did DEC decide to number the bytes that way >> round? I'm guessing that it just seemed natural: byte 0 is obviously >> less significant than byte 1, just as bit 0 is obviously less >> significant than bit 1. Much of the world has chosen to disagree. ... As I said, I've seen lots of speculation but no facts. Bell et al were surely familar with S/360 and were aware that their design was incompatible, although I suppose at the time it might not have seemed important. I sure hope the 10ns story isn't true. That would be really sad. R's, John -- Regards, John Levine, johnl at taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies", Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 11:54:55 2020 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:54:55 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 11:20 AM Dave Crocker via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 12/30/2020 7:46 AM, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: > > His two main grad students at CMU were Harold McFarland and Bill > Strecker, > > and much of the original work on the PDP-11 was done there. > > So 3 people did the work. No wonder they settled on octal. :-D 3 people ... At least one of whom had been lead on 18-bit and 36-bit processors previously. The competing 16-bit design team (Edson DeCastro et al) likewise came from a 12-bit processor (PDP-8). Prior to the PDP-11, the entire DEC product line had wordsize divisible by 3. Octal was in solidly in DEC's DNA before the PDP-11's 16-bit wordsize might have hinted at something else. And as previously noted, having 8 registers and 8 addressing modes made for nice Octal view. (The lonely leading bit allowed the smallest opcode to be 4 bits while maintaining octal alignment for the operands!) So there was no incentive to switch to Hexadecimal to fit the PDP-11 wordsize, at least not for the machine-language coders who are first-in and set the culture to follow. (And yes, Octal is easier mental arithmetic than Hexadecimal.) Bell Labs' Unix and C brought Octal/Decimal/Hex parity to the PDP-11 (and Vax11/780 thereafter). (Whether 'B' on the PDP-7 proto-Unix had Hex constants, I haven't a clue.) (And IDK if any DEC OS or Language products gave Hex first-class standing before that?) To bring things full circle and to DARPA history, Dennis Ritchie lived at the home a Boston-area Aunt while he was Bell's rep at the DARPA/MIT/Bell/GE=Honeywell Project MAC and Mike Padlipsky (MAP)'s officemate there. That said-same Aunt was also a volunteer at TCM Boston/Marlboro with Gordon Bell and myself ! From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 12:01:27 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 09:01:27 +1300 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: >...Stecker once gave us a lecture/seminar about the PDP-11 project in the early/mid-70s when I was a student. The question was tossed to him about why the 11 was byte-swapped and he replied that it had saved 10ns in the carry look-ahead logic on what would be the 11/20 processor design. My memory is that it was Bill Wulf who countered - "but you cost us hours in programmer time." A little bit disingenuous though. The 1970 AFIPS paper "A new architecture for mini-computers - The DEC PDP-11" was authored by G. BELL, R. CADY, H. McFARLAND, B. DELAGI, J. O?LAUGHLIN, R. NOONAN and W. WULF. Regards Brian On 31-Dec-20 04:46, Clem Cole wrote: > > > On Tue, Dec 29, 2020 at 9:41 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history > wrote: > > > You'd probably have to find a PDP-11 designer... > > There was only one, really, Gordon Bell. I'm sure he didn't work alone > > His two main grad students at CMU were Harold McFarlandand Bill Strecker, and?much of the original work on the PDP-11 was done there. I was always under the impression that McFarland was the higher bit, but I believe Strecker designed a great deal of logic also.? ?IIRC it was Dave Cane (who did the SMI and later the BI and of course lead the 750 team), once told me that McFarland's most important contribution was the Unibus protocols (Dave had joined the HW team to work on the memory system for the 11). > > FWIW: Wulf and his students work on compilers and?his paper on?instruction?sets regularity were definitely in the team's mind and of course the original BLISS-11 compiler was done at CMU during that same time.? So some credit really?needs to go to those folks too on the ISA. > > As for byte swapping, I remember that Stecker once gave us a lecture/seminar about the PDP-11 project in the early/mid-70s when?I was a student.? The question was tossed to him about why the?11 was byte-swapped and he replied that it had saved 10ns in the carry look-ahead logic on what would be the 11/20 processor design.? My memory is that it was Bill Wulf who countered -? "but you cost us hours in programmer time." > ? From dhc at dcrocker.net Wed Dec 30 14:07:31 2020 From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 14:07:31 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Bill Ricker wrote: > > The competing 16-bit design team (Edson DeCastro et al) likewise came > from a 12-bit processor (PDP-8). was the core of that team four people? ... d/ ps. and just to add to the whimsy, the three-person set also reminds me of the Magical Number Seven paper. (Nevermind that it's a great read.) -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From clemc at ccc.com Wed Dec 30 14:21:15 2020 From: clemc at ccc.com (Clem Cole) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 17:21:15 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: My apologies -- this is a bit more suited to the COFF mailing list than IH, but the questions/comment came here. Apologies to the moderators if I am taking this a tad to far... On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:55 PM Bill Ricker wrote: > Bell Labs' Unix and C brought Octal/Decimal/Hex parity to the PDP-11 (and > Vax11/780 thereafter). > Hrrmpt --- yes eventually but not originally, more in a minute.... > (Whether 'B' on the PDP-7 proto-Unix had Hex constants, I haven't a clue.) > It did not. Only octal, pls type 'B Tutorial Kernighan' into your favorite search engine (the file is called btut.pdf in the wild -- there are versions including the original roff (not nroff or troff BTW) of the document if you go hunting. > (And IDK if any DEC OS or Language products gave Hex first-class standing > before that?) > Yes, because code had to come from other manufacturers' products to TLG was pretty good about picking up things that IBM support. Somebody like Leslie Kling (who managed TLG for years) might remember [but thanks to CV-19 our weekly lunches have not occurred since last Feb, so I cann't ask any of the old TLG folks]. But you are correct, it was with Vax DEC started to use hex more freely -- it was a bit of a war between the 18/36-bit folks and the 32-bit, the 11 folks were sort of in the middle. As noted, the 11 was a 16-bit system although all the important concepts in the processor handbook are described in terms of octal [like device addresses - see Page A6 of old processor handbook]. As was pointed out by other folks, the instruction coding is all in threes also. There are 8 registers, *etc*.... Octal was pretty natural for it and most PDP-11 programmers (as was noted by the OP) tended to use octal for Macro-11 (I certainly did and I had programmed the 360 'BAL' and learned hex arithmetic before I started PDP-11 or PDP-10 hacking for that matter) but ... The Vax at 32-bits was when DEC started to be more hex oriented and really was an interesting thing to see the differences in the docs and the schematics etc... and more difficult to live through. Macro-32 it starts to change, as octal just was not as natural. As for BTL, C/Unix, *etc*... as one of the folks that very much lived that world. Ken and Dennis very much used octal for everything. If you look at the kernel or any of the compiler sources in the TUHS archives (or read the Lions book), you rarely see hex in anything. It's almost 100% octal. In fact, if you should an old Unix jockey like me the address of certain CSRs in hex, few of us would naturally recognize the address in the CSR space or what it was pointing too, whereas anything in C code being assigned to 077wxyz sure looks like one to me. Sadly, we can't ask Dennis, but Ken, Doug, or Mike Lesk might remember when Dennis added hex constants (which I'll try to follow up in email and find out if they remember anything). IIRC, the \x hex constants were there in Dennis compiler before the Vax, but I don't remember any code that used it until the V32 port and then only in things that really had to deal with a Vaxism, most PDP-11 folks still used octal of they had bit maps. If I have a chance I'll try to take a look at the Fifth Edition, Sixth, and Seventh Editions of his compiler and see if Dennis had them there [Fifth was my first C compiler]. ? From touch at strayalpha.com Wed Dec 30 15:22:16 2020 From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joseph Touch) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 15:22:16 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <43C49BFF-BCF8-4795-92C3-BCB640B25D12@strayalpha.com> > On Dec 30, 2020, at 2:21 PM, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: > > My apologies -- this is a bit more suited to the COFF mailing list than IH, > but the questions/comment came here. Apologies to the moderators if I am > taking this a tad to far? FWIW, I had created a computer-history mailing list as well but shut it down due to inactivity. This all seems both Internet-related and tech-history focused, which are the primary list targets. Joe (speaking as list admin) From johnl at iecc.com Wed Dec 30 15:59:37 2020 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 30 Dec 2020 18:59:37 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20201230235939.687573AED7D8@ary.qy> In article you write: >On 12/30/2020 7:46 AM, Clem Cole via Internet-history wrote: >> His two main grad students at CMU were Harold McFarland and Bill Strecker, >> and much of the original work on the PDP-11 was done there. > >So 3 people did the work. No wonder they settled on octal. I guess we should be grateful it wasn't ternary. R's, John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Dec 30 16:21:59 2020 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 13:21:59 +1300 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> On 31-Dec-20 11:07, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Bill Ricker wrote: >> >> The competing 16-bit design team (Edson DeCastro et al) likewise came >> from a 12-bit processor (PDP-8). The Imlac PDS-1 was also very much a 16-bit PDP-8, also (I believe) designed by ex-DEC people. Brian Carpenter > > > was the core of that team four people? ... > > > d/ > > ps. and just to add to the whimsy, the three-person set also reminds me > of the Magical Number Seven paper. (Nevermind that it's a great read.) > From geoff at iconia.com Wed Dec 30 18:50:43 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:50:43 -1000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> Message-ID: in a trip down memory lane vis-a-vis "The Imlac PDS-1" at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imlac_PDS-1 yours truly chances to note at the bottom under Applications "... *Mazewar *, the first online multiplayer computer game, was created on a pair of PDS-1's. Later, up to 8 players ran on PDS-1 stations or other terminals networked to the MIT host PDP-10 computer running the Mazewar AI program.[11] Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the early Arpanet ." the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours truly is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the early Arpanet." wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not SU-AI -- which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... hardly big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." -- most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar playing kinda folks... anyone got more "history" here on this...??? geoff On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:22 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > On 31-Dec-20 11:07, Dave Crocker wrote: > > On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Bill Ricker wrote: > >> > >> The competing 16-bit design team (Edson DeCastro et al) likewise came > >> from a 12-bit processor (PDP-8). > > The Imlac PDS-1 was also very much a 16-bit PDP-8, also (I believe) > designed > by ex-DEC people. > > Brian Carpenter > > > > > > > was the core of that team four people? ... > > > > > > d/ > > > > ps. and just to add to the whimsy, the three-person set also reminds me > > of the Magical Number Seven paper. (Nevermind that it's a great read.) > > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jack at 3kitty.org Wed Dec 30 20:00:30 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 20:00:30 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <951e686e-c2be-44e4-d043-7075e1453d04@3kitty.org> Hi Geoff, I was in MIT-DM when Mazewars happened, and I did some surgery on our PDP-10 TTY hardware to boost the RS232 speed up near 100 kb/s so we could make the game reasonable with Imlacs interacting with MIT-DM over RS232.?? It became quite popular. But I don't recall any cross-country Mazewars at all over the ARPANET.?? At one point, I did contact BBN to ask if TIP lines could be run at higher speeds (like at least 56 kb/s), so we could plug Imlacs in to TIPs.?? The answer was "The TIP supports speeds up to the reasonable maximum of 9.6 kbps."?? I suppose someone could have tried running across the ARPANET somehow through a Telnet connection, but I don't remember anyone doing that. FYI, the 1970s-era ITS and Imlac Maze have both been resurrected by a group called "ITS Hackers".?? I don't know how far they've gotten but it may someday be possible to run Maze over the Internet. See https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/1330 /Jack Haverty On 12/30/20 6:50 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > in a trip down memory lane vis-a-vis "The Imlac PDS-1" at > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imlac_PDS-1 > yours truly chances to note at the bottom under Applications > > "... *Mazewar *, the first online > multiplayer computer game, was created on a pair of PDS-1's. Later, up to 8 > players ran on PDS-1 stations or other terminals networked to the MIT > host > PDP-10 computer running the Mazewar > AI program.[11] > Mazewar games > between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the early Arpanet > ." > > > the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours truly > is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: > > "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the > early Arpanet." > > wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not SU-AI -- > which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at > JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) > house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... hardly > big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." -- > most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar playing > kinda folks... > > anyone got more "history" here on this...??? > > geoff > > On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:22 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> On 31-Dec-20 11:07, Dave Crocker wrote: >>> On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Bill Ricker wrote: >>>> The competing 16-bit design team (Edson DeCastro et al) likewise came >>>> from a 12-bit processor (PDP-8). >> The Imlac PDS-1 was also very much a 16-bit PDP-8, also (I believe) >> designed >> by ex-DEC people. >> >> Brian Carpenter >> >>> >>> was the core of that team four people? ... >>> >>> >>> d/ >>> >>> ps. and just to add to the whimsy, the three-person set also reminds me >>> of the Magical Number Seven paper. (Nevermind that it's a great read.) >>> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Dec 30 20:10:53 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2020 23:10:53 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <951e686e-c2be-44e4-d043-7075e1453d04@3kitty.org> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <951e686e-c2be-44e4-d043-7075e1453d04@3kitty.org> Message-ID: We had an Imlac connected to our PDP-11 running TNLS over the ARPANET. I remember spacewar on the Imlac but not mazewar. > On Dec 30, 2020, at 23:00, Jack Haverty via Internet-history wrote: > > Hi Geoff, > > I was in MIT-DM when Mazewars happened, and I did some surgery on our > PDP-10 TTY hardware to boost the RS232 speed up near 100 kb/s so we > could make the game reasonable with Imlacs interacting with MIT-DM over > RS232. It became quite popular. > > But I don't recall any cross-country Mazewars at all over the ARPANET. > At one point, I did contact BBN to ask if TIP lines could be run at > higher speeds (like at least 56 kb/s), so we could plug Imlacs in to > TIPs. The answer was "The TIP supports speeds up to the reasonable > maximum of 9.6 kbps." I suppose someone could have tried running > across the ARPANET somehow through a Telnet connection, but I don't > remember anyone doing that. > > FYI, the 1970s-era ITS and Imlac Maze have both been resurrected by a > group called "ITS Hackers". I don't know how far they've gotten but it > may someday be possible to run Maze over the Internet. > > See https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/1330 > > /Jack Haverty > > > > On 12/30/20 6:50 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: >> in a trip down memory lane vis-a-vis "The Imlac PDS-1" at >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imlac_PDS-1 >> yours truly chances to note at the bottom under Applications >> >> "... *Mazewar *, the first online >> multiplayer computer game, was created on a pair of PDS-1's. Later, up to 8 >> players ran on PDS-1 stations or other terminals networked to the MIT >> host >> PDP-10 computer running the Mazewar >> AI program.[11] >> Mazewar games >> between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the early Arpanet >> ." >> >> >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours truly >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >> >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the >> early Arpanet." >> >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not SU-AI -- >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... hardly >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." -- >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar playing >> kinda folks... >> >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? >> >> geoff >> >> On Wed, Dec 30, 2020 at 2:22 PM Brian E Carpenter via Internet-history < >> internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> >>> On 31-Dec-20 11:07, Dave Crocker wrote: >>>> On 12/30/2020 11:54 AM, Bill Ricker wrote: >>>>> The competing 16-bit design team (Edson DeCastro et al) likewise came >>>>> from a 12-bit processor (PDP-8). >>> The Imlac PDS-1 was also very much a 16-bit PDP-8, also (I believe) >>> designed >>> by ex-DEC people. >>> >>> Brian Carpenter >>> >>>> >>>> was the core of that team four people? ... >>>> >>>> >>>> d/ >>>> >>>> ps. and just to add to the whimsy, the three-person set also reminds me >>>> of the Magical Number Seven paper. (Nevermind that it's a great read.) >>>> >>> -- >>> Internet-history mailing list >>> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >>> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> >>> > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 31 04:10:22 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:10:22 +0000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history's message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2020 16:50:43 -1000") References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Geoff Goodfellow wrote: > the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours truly > is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: > > "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the > early Arpanet." > > wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not SU-AI -- > which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at > JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) > house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... hardly > big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." -- > most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar playing > kinda folks... > > anyone got more "history" here on this...??? I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA from the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 31 04:12:59 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:12:59 +0000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <951e686e-c2be-44e4-d043-7075e1453d04@3kitty.org> (Jack Haverty via Internet-history's message of "Wed, 30 Dec 2020 20:00:30 -0800") References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <951e686e-c2be-44e4-d043-7075e1453d04@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <7weej62myc.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Jack Haverty wrote: > FYI, the 1970s-era ITS and Imlac Maze have both been resurrected by a > group called "ITS Hackers".?? I don't know how far they've gotten but > it may someday be possible to run Maze over the Internet. We have run a session between Sweden, Seattle, and the UK. But the network was just used to emulate a serial line, so in that sense the Internet was only peripherally involved. From lars at nocrew.org Thu Dec 31 04:34:20 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:34:20 +0000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> (Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history's message of "Thu, 31 Dec 2020 12:10:22 +0000") References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wa6tu2lyr.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> > Geoff Goodfellow wrote: >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours truly >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >> >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the >> early Arpanet." >> >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not SU-AI -- >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... hardly >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." -- >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar playing >> kinda folks... >> >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? > > I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. This slide points to USC: https://image.slidesharecdn.com/bruce-damer-digibarn-jul2008-compressed-100126013512-phpapp02/95/bruce-damers-talk-on-the-digibarn-computer-museum-palo-alto-ca-jul-2008-40-728.jpg From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 31 11:41:52 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:41:52 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is populated by many of the people who were involved with building and operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and 80s.?? That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the ARPANET actually happened: "I would have heard about it if it were true.? I was deeply connected with ARPA at the time" So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is fantasy. MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming into the wee hours of the day.?? No ARPANET involved. /Jack Haverty (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > Geoff Goodfellow wrote: >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours truly >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >> >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the >> early Arpanet." >> >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not SU-AI -- >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... hardly >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." -- >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar playing >> kinda folks... >> >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? > I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. > > It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the > claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early > 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it > that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA from > the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were > MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." From geoff at iconia.com Thu Dec 31 12:34:21 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 10:34:21 -1000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: jack, sure thought so that that so called "legend" is Total Fantasy...! btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused an Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most especially with your "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of CPU jives with yours truly's remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) when yours truly requested our display terminal speeds get upped to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was told that wasn't gonna happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out would consume all the the CPU (and leave nothing for the users programs to run)! we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 vector graphic terminal and when we downloaded programs to it (it was located in our machine room not to far from the KA-10's console) you could see the light on the console corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID -- for a program that was literally just spewing/typing out the contents of the executable being swallowed by the GT40. now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP port 21 "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D geoff On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is > populated by many of the people who were involved with building and > operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and 80s. > That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the > ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as > well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. > > The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the ARPANET > actually happened: > > "I would have heard about it if it were true. I was deeply connected > with ARPA at the time" > > So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is fantasy. > > MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime > consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming > into the wee hours of the day. No ARPANET involved. > > /Jack Haverty > (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > > On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > > Geoff Goodfellow wrote: > >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours > truly > >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: > >> > >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the > >> early Arpanet." > >> > >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not > SU-AI -- > >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at > >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) > >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... > hardly > >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." > -- > >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar > playing > >> kinda folks... > >> > >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? > > I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. > > > > It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the > > claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early > > 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it > > that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA from > > the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were > > MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Dec 31 12:39:01 2020 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 15:39:01 -0500 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <018CAFA3-81A8-4DB0-85EC-23943A025C61@comcast.net> There was also a one-liner well-known socket. ;-) > On Dec 31, 2020, at 15:34, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via Internet-history wrote: > > jack, sure thought so that that so called "legend" is Total Fantasy...! > > btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused an > Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most especially with your > "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of CPU jives with yours truly's > remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) when yours truly requested our display > terminal speeds get upped to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was told that wasn't > gonna happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out would consume all the > the CPU (and leave nothing for the users programs to run)! > > we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: a > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 vector graphic terminal and when we > downloaded programs to it (it was located in our machine room not to far > from the KA-10's console) you could see the light on the console > corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID -- for a program that was > literally just spewing/typing out the contents of the executable being > swallowed by the GT40. > > now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP port 21 > "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D > > geoff > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is >> populated by many of the people who were involved with building and >> operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and 80s. >> That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the >> ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as >> well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. >> >> The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the ARPANET >> actually happened: >> >> "I would have heard about it if it were true. I was deeply connected >> with ARPA at the time" >> >> So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is fantasy. >> >> MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime >> consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming >> into the wee hours of the day. No ARPANET involved. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) >> >> On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: >>> Geoff Goodfellow wrote: >>>> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours >> truly >>>> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >>>> >>>> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the >>>> early Arpanet." >>>> >>>> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not >> SU-AI -- >>>> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was at >>>> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) >>>> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... >> hardly >>>> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early Arpanet." >> -- >>>> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar >> playing >>>> kinda folks... >>>> >>>> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? >>> I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. >>> >>> It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the >>> claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early >>> 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it >>> that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA from >>> the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were >>> MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history From geoff at iconia.com Thu Dec 31 12:52:36 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 10:52:36 -1000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: <018CAFA3-81A8-4DB0-85EC-23943A025C61@comcast.net> References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> <018CAFA3-81A8-4DB0-85EC-23943A025C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: that "one-liner well-known socket" was port 21, yours truly believes... :D On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:39 AM John Day wrote: > There was also a one-liner well-known socket. ;-) > > > On Dec 31, 2020, at 15:34, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via > Internet-history wrote: > > > > jack, sure thought so that that so called "legend" is Total Fantasy...! > > > > btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused an > > Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most especially with > your > > "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of CPU jives with yours truly's > > remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) when yours truly requested our display > > terminal speeds get upped to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was told that > wasn't > > gonna happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out would consume all > the > > the CPU (and leave nothing for the users programs to run)! > > > > we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: a > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 vector graphic terminal and when > we > > downloaded programs to it (it was located in our machine room not to far > > from the KA-10's console) you could see the light on the console > > corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID -- for a program that was > > literally just spewing/typing out the contents of the executable being > > swallowed by the GT40. > > > > now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP port 21 > > "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D > > > > geoff > > > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > > > >> I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is > >> populated by many of the people who were involved with building and > >> operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and 80s. > >> That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the > >> ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as > >> well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. > >> > >> The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the ARPANET > >> actually happened: > >> > >> "I would have heard about it if it were true. I was deeply connected > >> with ARPA at the time" > >> > >> So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is fantasy. > >> > >> MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime > >> consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming > >> into the wee hours of the day. No ARPANET involved. > >> > >> /Jack Haverty > >> (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > >> > >> On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > >>> Geoff Goodfellow wrote: > >>>> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours > >> truly > >>>> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: > >>>> > >>>> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the > >>>> early Arpanet." > >>>> > >>>> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not > >> SU-AI -- > >>>> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was > at > >>>> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) > >>>> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... > >> hardly > >>>> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early > Arpanet." > >> -- > >>>> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar > >> playing > >>>> kinda folks... > >>>> > >>>> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? > >>> I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. > >>> > >>> It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the > >>> claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early > >>> 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it > >>> that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA from > >>> the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were > >>> MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." > >> > >> -- > >> Internet-history mailing list > >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> > >> > > > > -- > > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > > living as The Truth is True > > -- > > Internet-history mailing list > > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From geoff at iconia.com Thu Dec 31 12:58:28 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 10:58:28 -1000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> <018CAFA3-81A8-4DB0-85EC-23943A025C61@comcast.net> Message-ID: yup, port 21 (octal), viz. EXCERPTing: ASSIGNED NUMBERS https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc755 [...] Specific Assignments: Network Standard Functions Decimal Octal Description References ------- ----- ----------- ---------- 1 1 Old Telnet [6] 3 3 Old File Transfer [7,8,9] 5 5 Remote Job Entry [1,10] 7 7 Echo [11] 9 11 Discard [12] 11 13 Who is on or SYSTAT 13 15 Date and Time 15 17 Who is up or NETSTAT 17 21 Short Text Message [...] :D On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:52 AM the keyboard of geoff goodfellow < geoff at iconia.com> wrote: > that "one-liner well-known socket" was port 21, yours truly believes... :D > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 10:39 AM John Day wrote: > >> There was also a one-liner well-known socket. ;-) >> >> > On Dec 31, 2020, at 15:34, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow via >> Internet-history wrote: >> > >> > jack, sure thought so that that so called "legend" is Total Fantasy...! >> > >> > btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused an >> > Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most especially with >> your >> > "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of CPU jives with yours truly's >> > remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) when yours truly requested our display >> > terminal speeds get upped to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was told that >> wasn't >> > gonna happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out would consume all >> the >> > the CPU (and leave nothing for the users programs to run)! >> > >> > we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: a >> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 vector graphic terminal and >> when we >> > downloaded programs to it (it was located in our machine room not to far >> > from the KA-10's console) you could see the light on the console >> > corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID -- for a program that was >> > literally just spewing/typing out the contents of the executable being >> > swallowed by the GT40. >> > >> > now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP port 21 >> > "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D >> > >> > geoff >> > >> > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < >> > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: >> > >> >> I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is >> >> populated by many of the people who were involved with building and >> >> operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and 80s. >> >> That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the >> >> ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as >> >> well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. >> >> >> >> The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the >> ARPANET >> >> actually happened: >> >> >> >> "I would have heard about it if it were true. I was deeply connected >> >> with ARPA at the time" >> >> >> >> So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is fantasy. >> >> >> >> MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime >> >> consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming >> >> into the wee hours of the day. No ARPANET involved. >> >> >> >> /Jack Haverty >> >> (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) >> >> >> >> On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: >> >>> Geoff Goodfellow wrote: >> >>>> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours >> >> truly >> >>>> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >> >>>> >> >>>> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the >> >>>> early Arpanet." >> >>>> >> >>>> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not >> >> SU-AI -- >> >>>> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which >> was at >> >>>> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard >> Weyhrauch's) >> >>>> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... >> >> hardly >> >>>> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early >> Arpanet." >> >> -- >> >>>> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar >> >> playing >> >>>> kinda folks... >> >>>> >> >>>> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? >> >>> I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. >> >>> >> >>> It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the >> >>> claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early >> >>> 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it >> >>> that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA >> from >> >>> the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were >> >>> MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Internet-history mailing list >> >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> >> >> > >> > -- >> > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com >> > living as The Truth is True >> > -- >> > Internet-history mailing list >> > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 31 13:18:03 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 13:18:03 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: The MIT-DM TTY controller for our KA PDP-10 was a homebrew device, built by Steve Morton.?? Steve really really wanted to design and build a disk interface.? But we already had a disk interface, and just needed more TTY lines.? So he was told to make a TTY interface.? He did, but designed it as if it was to be a disk interface.?? I don't recall exactly how it interfaced to the CPU, but it was fast and efficient. I added a bit of logic on the RS232 side to boost line speeds up near 100kb/s over RG174 cable spanning between the 2nd (Imlacs) and 9th (PDP-10) floors of the building.?? We ran about 8-10 Imlacs on those TTY lines, which became a favorite for MazeWars.?? It didn't consume very much of the CPU, but it occupied all of the terminals (Imlacs). I've wondered if that "TTY Net" was one of the earliest "LAN" implementation.? We certainly used it like a LAN.? Metcalfe hadn't gotten around to inventing Ethernet yet, he was still involved with the IMP interface. /Jack On 12/31/20 12:34 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote: > jack, sure thought so that?that so called "legend" is Total Fantasy...! > > btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused an > Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most especially with > your "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of CPU jives with yours > truly's remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) when yours truly requested > our display terminal speeds get upped?to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was > told that wasn't gonna happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out > would consume all the the CPU (and leave nothing for the users > programs to run)! > > we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: > a?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40?vector graphic terminal and > when we downloaded programs to it (it was located in our machine room > not to far from the KA-10's console) you could see the light on the > console corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID -- for a program that > was literally?just spewing/typing out the contents of the executable > being swallowed by the GT40. > > now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP port > 21 "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D > > geoff > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history > > wrote: > > I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is > populated by many of the people who were involved with building and > operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and > 80s.?? > That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the > ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as > well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. > > The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the > ARPANET > actually happened: > > "I would have heard about it if it were true.? I was deeply connected > with ARPA at the time" > > So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is > fantasy. > > MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime > consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming > into the wee hours of the day.?? No ARPANET involved. > > /Jack Haverty > (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) > > On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: > > Geoff Goodfellow wrote: > >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but > yours truly > >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: > >> > >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load > on the > >> early Arpanet." > >> > >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if > not SU-AI -- > >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of > which was at > >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard > Weyhrauch's) > >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased > lines... hardly > >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early > Arpanet." -- > >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the > mazewar playing > >> kinda folks... > >> > >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? > > I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. > > > > It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the > > claim.? The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early > > 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network.? Legend has it > > that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by > DARPA from > > the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were > > MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." > > -- > Internet-history mailing list > Internet-history at elists.isoc.org > > https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > > From geoff at iconia.com Thu Dec 31 13:32:47 2020 From: geoff at iconia.com (the keyboard of geoff goodfellow) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 11:32:47 -1000 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: yours truly believes the first "TTY Net" was that was the earliest "LAN" implementation was done at Stanford on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Suppes Institute for Mathematical Studies in the Social Sciences (IMSSS) PDP-10 which my 7th/8th grade school (Oak Knoll, in Menlo Park, CA) had a room full of Teletype (Model 33's) connected to that provided Computer-assisted Instruction (CAI) experiments. will try to dig an old report on this effort... On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:18 AM Jack Haverty wrote: > The MIT-DM TTY controller for our KA PDP-10 was a homebrew device, built > by Steve Morton. Steve really really wanted to design and build a disk > interface. But we already had a disk interface, and just needed more TTY > lines. So he was told to make a TTY interface. He did, but designed it as > if it was to be a disk interface. I don't recall exactly how it > interfaced to the CPU, but it was fast and efficient. > > I added a bit of logic on the RS232 side to boost line speeds up near > 100kb/s over RG174 cable spanning between the 2nd (Imlacs) and 9th (PDP-10) > floors of the building. We ran about 8-10 Imlacs on those TTY lines, > which became a favorite for MazeWars. It didn't consume very much of the > CPU, but it occupied all of the terminals (Imlacs). > > I've wondered if that "TTY Net" was one of the earliest "LAN" > implementation. We certainly used it like a LAN. Metcalfe hadn't gotten > around to inventing Ethernet yet, he was still involved with the IMP > interface. > > /Jack > > On 12/31/20 12:34 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote: > > jack, sure thought so that that so called "legend" is Total Fantasy...! > > btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused an > Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most especially with your > "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of CPU jives with yours truly's > remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) when yours truly requested our display > terminal speeds get upped to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was told that wasn't > gonna happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out would consume all the > the CPU (and leave nothing for the users programs to run)! > > we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: a > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40 vector graphic terminal and when > we downloaded programs to it (it was located in our machine room not to far > from the KA-10's console) you could see the light on the console > corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID -- for a program that was > literally just spewing/typing out the contents of the executable being > swallowed by the GT40. > > now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP port 21 > "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D > > geoff > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history < > internet-history at elists.isoc.org> wrote: > >> I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, which is >> populated by many of the people who were involved with building and >> operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s and 80s. >> That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge of the >> ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their client/boss, as >> well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. >> >> The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over the ARPANET >> actually happened: >> >> "I would have heard about it if it were true. I was deeply connected >> with ARPA at the time" >> >> So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" is fantasy. >> >> MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a prime >> consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just shifted gaming >> into the wee hours of the day. No ARPANET involved. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) >> >> On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: >> > Geoff Goodfellow wrote: >> >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM host, but yours >> truly >> >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >> >> >> >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data load on the >> >> early Arpanet." >> >> >> >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been -- if not >> SU-AI -- >> >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one of which was >> at >> >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard Weyhrauch's) >> >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud leased lines... >> hardly >> >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the early >> Arpanet." -- >> >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be the mazewar >> playing >> >> kinda folks... >> >> >> >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? >> > I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back it up. >> > >> > It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one source for the >> > claim. The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in the early >> > 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network. Legend has it >> > that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned by DARPA from >> > the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given month were >> > MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > > > > -- Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com living as The Truth is True From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Dec 31 13:46:49 2020 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2020 13:46:49 -0800 Subject: [ih] byte order, was Octal vs Hex, not Re: Dotted decimal notation In-Reply-To: References: <20201229232059.78C6C356444F@ary.qy> <63601804-716a-f531-8da4-63e43b9d9fe6@3kitty.org> <6e51b676-2ea6-dae8-cd37-86bd7572ae02@dcrocker.net> <0b0a0514-8662-b2d6-cb8e-71a06f9ff3d9@gmail.com> <7wim8i2n2p.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <3a4858dd-7e7e-ce53-b9c1-adbfd02c02d7@3kitty.org> Message-ID: By "LAN" I mean a situation where a bunch of computers (not just keyboards/screens) are communicating with each other.? The Imlacs were the first time I personally encountered "terminals" that were actually computers.? MazeWars operated by all of those computers running programs that exchanged information over the "LAN". /J On 12/31/20 1:32 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote: > yours truly believes the first "TTY Net" was that was the earliest > "LAN" implementation was done at Stanford > on?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Suppes?Institute for > Mathematical Studies in the Social Sciences (IMSSS) PDP-10 which my > 7th/8th grade school (Oak Knoll, in Menlo Park, CA) had a room full of > Teletype (Model 33's) connected to that provided Computer-assisted > Instruction (CAI) experiments.? will try to dig an old report on this > effort... > > On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 11:18 AM Jack Haverty > wrote: > > The MIT-DM TTY controller for our KA PDP-10 was a homebrew device, > built by Steve Morton.?? Steve really really wanted to design and > build a disk interface.? But we already had a disk interface, and > just needed more TTY lines.? So he was told to make a TTY > interface.? He did, but designed it as if it was to be a disk > interface.?? I don't recall exactly how it interfaced to the CPU, > but it was fast and efficient. > > I added a bit of logic on the RS232 side to boost line speeds up > near 100kb/s over RG174 cable spanning between the 2nd (Imlacs) > and 9th (PDP-10) floors of the building.?? We ran about 8-10 > Imlacs on those TTY lines, which became a favorite for MazeWars.?? > It didn't consume very much of the CPU, but it occupied all of the > terminals (Imlacs). > > I've wondered if that "TTY Net" was one of the earliest "LAN" > implementation.? We certainly used it like a LAN.? Metcalfe hadn't > gotten around to inventing Ethernet yet, he was still involved > with the IMP interface. > > /Jack > > On 12/31/20 12:34 PM, the keyboard of geoff goodfellow wrote: >> jack, sure thought so that?that so called "legend" is Total >> Fantasy...! >> >> btw, serial lines connected to the PDP-10's Line Scanner caused >> an Interrupt Per Character... the fact that Mazwar (most >> especially with your "bandwidth enhancement") became consumer of >> CPU jives with yours truly's remembrance of our KA-10 (SRI-AI) >> when yours truly requested our display terminal speeds get >> upped?to 9600 baud (from 2400) and was told that wasn't gonna >> happen cuz 4 9600 baud terminals going flat out would consume all >> the the CPU (and leave nothing for the users programs to run)! >> >> we did have ONE "terminal" that went at 9600 baud: >> a?https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40?vector graphic terminal >> and when we downloaded programs to it (it was located in our >> machine room not to far from the KA-10's console) you could see >> the light on the console corresponding to its Job # be on SOLID >> -- for a program that was literally?just spewing/typing out the >> contents of the executable being swallowed by the GT40. >> >> now speaking of something that DARPA DID summarily ban: the NCP >> port 21 "Short Text Message" (dirty) Limerick Server... :D >> >> geoff >> >> On Thu, Dec 31, 2020 at 9:42 AM Jack Haverty via Internet-history >> > > wrote: >> >> I just asked this question on a forum of ex-BBN employees, >> which is >> populated by many of the people who were involved with >> building and >> operating the ARPANET from its beginning and through the 70s >> and 80s.?? >> That elicited answers from the two people who were in charge >> of the >> ARPANET project through that time, with ARPA as their >> client/boss, as >> well as engineers who worked on building and operating it. >> >> The consensus -- no such thing as ARPA banning MazeWars over >> the ARPANET >> actually happened: >> >> "I would have heard about it if it were true.? I was deeply >> connected >> with ARPA at the time" >> >> So I'd consider that pretty good evidence that the "legend" >> is fantasy. >> >> MazeWars was (unsuccessfully) banned at MIT-DM as it became a >> prime >> consumer of CPU and Console time, but that mostly just >> shifted gaming >> into the wee hours of the day.?? No ARPANET involved. >> >> /Jack Haverty >> (MIT-DM 1970-1977; BBN 1977-1990) >> >> On 12/31/20 4:10 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via Internet-history wrote: >> > Geoff Goodfellow wrote: >> >> the MIT PDP-10 reference must be of Al Vezza's MIT-DM >> host, but yours truly >> >> is kinda perplexed over the last sentence of: >> >> >> >> "Mazewar games between MIT and Stanford were a major data >> load on the >> >> early Arpanet." >> >> >> >> wondering just what host at Stanford this must have been >> -- if not SU-AI -- >> >> which yours truly recalls had a couple of Imlac's -- one >> of which was at >> >> JMC's (John McCarthy's) house and other at RWW's (Richard >> Weyhrauch's) >> >> house -- both of which were connected with 1200 baud >> leased lines... hardly >> >> big enough to "contribute" to "a major data load on the >> early Arpanet." -- >> >> most especially given that JMC &/ RWW didn't seem to be >> the mazewar playing >> >> kinda folks... >> >> >> >> anyone got more "history" here on this...??? >> > I have seen this story many times, but no evidence to back >> it up. >> > >> > It seems DEC WRL's MazeWar for X10/X11/Sunview is one >> source for the >> > claim.? The manpage says "MazeWar first appeared at MIT in >> the early >> > 1970s, using IMLAC displays and the ArpaNet network.? >> Legend has it >> > that, at one point during that period, MazeWar was banned >> by DARPA from >> > the ArpaNet because half of all the packets in a given >> month were >> > MazeWar packets flying between Stanford and MIT." >> >> -- >> Internet-history mailing list >> Internet-history at elists.isoc.org >> >> https://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> >> >> >> -- >> Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com >> living as The Truth is True >> >> >> > > > > -- > Geoff.Goodfellow at iconia.com > living as The Truth is True > > >