From touch at strayalpha.com  Mon May  6 18:29:53 2019
From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 18:29:53 -0700
Subject: [ih] test - please ignore (IH)
Message-ID: <4EC00624-2DC0-499B-B061-C33E7F5A0E1E@strayalpha.com>



From jeanjour at comcast.net  Mon May  6 18:52:43 2019
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 21:52:43 -0400
Subject: [ih] Question
Message-ID: <CD172D25-9BB0-4509-8820-A2AB3D974C6A@comcast.net>

Where can I find the archive for this list?
Thanks,
John


From touch at strayalpha.com  Mon May  6 21:51:23 2019
From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch)
Date: Mon, 6 May 2019 21:51:23 -0700
Subject: [ih] Question
In-Reply-To: <CD172D25-9BB0-4509-8820-A2AB3D974C6A@comcast.net>
References: <CD172D25-9BB0-4509-8820-A2AB3D974C6A@comcast.net>
Message-ID: <9C03ACAB-CCF3-457D-AFA0-2E72423D830C@strayalpha.com>



> On May 6, 2019, at 6:52 PM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Where can I find the archive for this list?

In principle, at the URL at the bottom of every post.

If and when ISI restores the Postel.org webserver or we find a more reliable hosted home. 

As list admin, I?ll happily entertain offers for the latter off-list.

Joe

> Thanks,
> John
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.




From touch at strayalpha.com  Wed May  8 17:05:48 2019
From: touch at strayalpha.com (Joe Touch)
Date: Wed, 8 May 2019 17:05:48 -0700
Subject: [ih] FYI - the server is backup, as are thus the archives
Message-ID: <DC7515A3-BBBD-4633-A1E6-3093885C5412@strayalpha.com>

And I?m working on a longer-term fix? stay tuned.

Joe


From joly at punkcast.com  Sat May 18 11:17:22 2019
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 14:17:22 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email "inventor"
	settles
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>

(Via Vint tweet)

https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-news/defamation-lawsuit-brought-self-proclaimed-email-inventor-settles-n1007196


May 17, 2019, 5:38 PM EDT
By Cyrus Farivar

A defamation lawsuit against tech news website Techdirt filed by a
Massachusetts man who questionably claimed to have invented email in
numerous articles has been settled.

Shiva Ayyadurai?s attorney, Charles Harder, released a statementearlier in
the week noting that no money had changed hands, and wrote that both
parties were ?pleased to have resolved this matter.?

Since 2011, Ayyadurai has put forward his claim that he invented email as a
teenager in 1978, and also claims he was the first to use the term ?EMAIL.?

He got attention in both Time and The Washington Post, in late 2011 and
early 2012, respectively, which repeated his claims, citing the
Smithsonian?s acceptance of 1978-era materials donated by Ayyadurai.

But in February 2012, the Smithsonian issued a statement, saying that
?Exchanging messages through computer systems, what most people call
?email,? predates the work of Ayyadurai.?

The Post?s ombudsman then admitted that the paper?s earlier coverage had
been inaccurate.Additionally, numerous scholars of the era, including John
Vittal, who authored an email program called MSG in 1975, and Vint Cerf, a
co-inventor of the TCP/IP protocol upon which the Internet is based, have
publicly dismissed Ayyadurai?s claims.

As part of the agreement, Techdirt must add links to a previous rebuttal
that Ayyadurai authored years ago, according to Harder.

Harder, a Beverly Hills-based attorney, also worked as Hulk Hogan?s
attorney in a lawsuit against the website Gawker, which ultimately drove
the site into bankruptcy.

On Friday, Techdirt founder Mike Masnick formally informed his readers of
the deal, writing that the ?entire process has been quite a pain for us.?

?We?re happy to have it behind us,? he also said in a separate phone
interview.

?I don?t think it will change the way we report. We do what we do and we
fought it the way we did because we believed in the way we reported on him
and I don?t see why we would change. We stand by what we wrote and we will
continue to report the way we report.?

Neither Ayyadurai nor Harder immediately responded to requests for comment.


--
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat May 18 13:30:36 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 13:30:36 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>


The suit from the defendant's view:

      Our Legal Dispute With Shiva Ayyadurai Is Now Over

 
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE


d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From richard at bennett.com  Sat May 18 14:26:15 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 15:26:15 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>

Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?

It looks like Ayyadurai has won. Masnick has to give him free advertising after spending a small fortune to defend his speech rights and Ayyadurai doesn't have to give up his criminal ways.

This appears to put Masnick in the same position as an artist whose work has been pirated who spends heavily in a lawsuit that fails to stop the abuse of his speech rights.
Truly a sad thing for free speech.

RB

> On May 18, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> 
> 
> The suit from the defendant's view:
> 
>      Our Legal Dispute With Shiva Ayyadurai Is Now Over
> 
> 
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE
> 
> 
> d/
> -- 
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat May 18 14:31:19 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 14:31:19 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <18ea89f5-841e-ff43-edca-b5904625605f@dcrocker.net>

On 5/18/2019 2:26 PM, Richard Bennett wrote:
> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?


It ends the waste of funds.  But it doesn't reimburse them for the waste 
up to now.

He notes that adding the link is pretty much on a par with what they 
already had, so he doesn't count it as meaning much.  My own reaction is 
the same.  So while it might be distasteful, I don't count it for much 
either way.

To me the larger issue is the 'fake news' aspect of people's being able 
to claim a role in Internet history that they did not have, but by 
virtue of their aggressive marketing and legal manipulations, getting 
treated as if they did.  I wish I saw a deterministic way to fix that.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From richard at bennett.com  Sat May 18 14:41:05 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 15:41:05 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <18ea89f5-841e-ff43-edca-b5904625605f@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<18ea89f5-841e-ff43-edca-b5904625605f@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <AC5C860D-12F8-44B6-ACF0-AE097CC9F4DB@bennett.com>

Remember the campaign to make Huffington Post retract its fact articles on Ayyadurai?

> On May 18, 2019, at 3:31 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> 
> On 5/18/2019 2:26 PM, Richard Bennett wrote:
>> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?
> 
> 
> It ends the waste of funds.  But it doesn't reimburse them for the waste up to now.
> 
> He notes that adding the link is pretty much on a par with what they already had, so he doesn't count it as meaning much.  My own reaction is the same.  So while it might be distasteful, I don't count it for much either way.
> 
> To me the larger issue is the 'fake news' aspect of people's being able to claim a role in Internet history that they did not have, but by virtue of their aggressive marketing and legal manipulations, getting treated as if they did.  I wish I saw a deterministic way to fix that.
> 
> d/
> 
> -- 
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From el at lisse.NA  Sat May 18 16:36:09 2019
From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 01:36:09 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>

Does it really, really matter who can lay claim to email?

And, he didn't win, they settled.

By the way, a link is not free advertising. It's a free link.

el

On 2019-05-18 23:26 , Richard Bennett wrote:
> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?
> 
> It looks like Ayyadurai has won.  Masnick has to give him free
> advertising after spending a small fortune to defend his speech rights
> and Ayyadurai doesn't have to give up his criminal ways.
> 
> This appears to put Masnick in the same position as an artist whose
> work has been pirated who spends heavily in a lawsuit that fails to
> stop the abuse of his speech rights.  Truly a sad thing for free
> speech.
> 
> RB
[...]

-- 
Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse          / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar)
el at lisse.NA            / *     |   Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
PO Box 8421                  /
Bachbrecht, Namibia     ;____/


From richard at bennett.com  Sat May 18 18:27:21 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 19:27:21 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
Message-ID: <B9FB517C-DCE3-4156-8D7D-0AAD09920549@bennett.com>

Personally, I?m happy for Ayyadurai to lay claim to the invention of email. Wouldn?t it be nice if whenever people complain to you about spam or fake news chains, you can just say ?Hey, what do you expect? This stuff was created by an adolescent doing a part time job. What do you expect, a grown-up design? LOL.?

RB

> On May 18, 2019, at 5:36 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:
> 
> Does it really, really matter who can lay claim to email?
> 
> And, he didn't win, they settled.
> 
> By the way, a link is not free advertising. It's a free link.
> 
> el
> 
> On 2019-05-18 23:26 , Richard Bennett wrote:
>> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?
>> 
>> It looks like Ayyadurai has won.  Masnick has to give him free
>> advertising after spending a small fortune to defend his speech rights
>> and Ayyadurai doesn't have to give up his criminal ways.
>> 
>> This appears to put Masnick in the same position as an artist whose
>> work has been pirated who spends heavily in a lawsuit that fails to
>> stop the abuse of his speech rights.  Truly a sad thing for free
>> speech.
>> 
>> RB
> [...]
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse          / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar)
> el at lisse.NA            / *     |   Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
> PO Box 8421                  /
> Bachbrecht, Namibia     ;____/
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sat May 18 18:41:42 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 18:41:42 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
Message-ID: <fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>

On 5/18/2019 4:36 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
> Does it really, really matter who can lay claim to email?

Does clarity about the details of history matter?  People tend to think 
it does.  For many reasons.

> 
> And, he didn't win, they settled.

When someone gains position with false claims that give them advantages 
and they are able to continue to benefit from those advantages, based on 
those false claims, it is generally not viewed as a 'win'.


d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Sat May 18 21:15:28 2019
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 00:15:28 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>

I kind of see it as a win for Ayyadurai - in that he's no longer facing 
a massive counter-suit.

Other than that, Techdirt has to post a link to some trash that 
Ayyadurai wrote. No big deal there.

I expect that Techdirt made the calculation that Ayyadurai wouldn't be 
able to pay off a big counter-suit, so why waste the legal fees.

Miles Fidelman

On 5/18/19 5:26 PM, Richard Bennett wrote:
> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?
>
> It looks like Ayyadurai has won. Masnick has to give him free 
> advertising after spending a small fortune to defend his speech rights 
> and Ayyadurai doesn't have to give up his criminal ways.
>
> This appears to put Masnick in the same position as an artist whose 
> work has been pirated who spends heavily in a lawsuit that fails to 
> stop the abuse of his speech rights.
> Truly a sad thing for free speech.
>
> RB
>
>> On May 18, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net 
>> <mailto:dhc at dcrocker.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> The suit from the defendant's view:
>>
>> ?????Our Legal Dispute With Shiva Ayyadurai Is Now Over
>>
>>
>> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE
>>
>>
>> d/
>> -- 
>> Dave Crocker
>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>> bbiw.net
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
> ?
> Richard Bennett
> High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org>?Founder
> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>
> Internet Policy Consultant
>
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra

Theory is when you know everything but nothing works.
Practice is when everything works but no one knows why.
In our lab, theory and practice are combined:
nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown

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From richard at bennett.com  Sat May 18 21:35:01 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sat, 18 May 2019 22:35:01 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>

Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising. 

RB

> On May 18, 2019, at 10:15 PM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net> wrote:
> 
> I kind of see it as a win for Ayyadurai - in that he's no longer facing a massive counter-suit.
> 
> Other than that, Techdirt has to post a link to some trash that Ayyadurai wrote. No big deal there.
> 
> I expect that Techdirt made the calculation that Ayyadurai wouldn't be able to pay off a big counter-suit, so why waste the legal fees.
> 
> Miles Fidelman
> 
> On 5/18/19 5:26 PM, Richard Bennett wrote:
>> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?
>> 
>> It looks like Ayyadurai has won. Masnick has to give him free advertising after spending a small fortune to defend his speech rights and Ayyadurai doesn't have to give up his criminal ways.
>> 
>> This appears to put Masnick in the same position as an artist whose work has been pirated who spends heavily in a lawsuit that fails to stop the abuse of his speech rights.
>> Truly a sad thing for free speech.
>> 
>> RB
>> 
>>> On May 18, 2019, at 2:30 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net <mailto:dhc at dcrocker.net>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The suit from the defendant's view:
>>> 
>>>      Our Legal Dispute With Shiva Ayyadurai Is Now Over
>>> 
>>> 
>>> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE <https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> d/
>>> -- 
>>> Dave Crocker
>>> Brandenburg InternetWorking
>>> bbiw.net
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
>> 
>> ?
>> Richard Bennett
>> High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
>> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>> 
>> Internet Policy Consultant
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
> -- 
> In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
> In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra
> 
> Theory is when you know everything but nothing works. 
> Practice is when everything works but no one knows why. 
> In our lab, theory and practice are combined: 
> nothing works and no one knows why.  ... unknown
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From el at lisse.na  Sun May 19 00:36:15 2019
From: el at lisse.na (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 09:36:15 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
	<fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <9c47d2ac-9079-4e47-81cc-250f77ff0aa1@Spark>

Dave,

I agree, but a false claim, per se, or "gaining position" is not "criminal".

el
On 19 May 2019, 03:49 +0200, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net>, wrote:
> On 5/18/2019 4:36 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
> > Does it really, really matter who can lay claim to email?
>
> Does clarity about the details of history matter? People tend to think
> it does. For many reasons.
>
> >
> > And, he didn't win, they settled.
>
> When someone gains position with false claims that give them advantages
> and they are able to continue to benefit from those advantages, based on
> those false claims, it is generally not viewed as a 'win'.
>
>
> d/
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
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From el at lisse.na  Sun May 19 03:17:30 2019
From: el at lisse.na (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 12:17:30 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>

Richard,

that is a bit selective.

They did win the first round.

But as protected speech. An Anti-SLAPP win would have allowed them to recover costs, which in US litigation is notably rare.

el

--
Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
On 19 May 2019, 06:54 +0200, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com>, wrote:
> Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising.
>
> RB


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From richard at bennett.com  Sun May 19 12:10:10 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 13:10:10 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
Message-ID: <80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>

Did they? As it stands, Techdirt will not collect any fees and its SLAPP suit has been dropped. 

> On May 19, 2019, at 4:17 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:
> 
> Richard,
> 
> that is a bit selective.
> 
> They did win the first round.
> 
> But as protected speech. An Anti-SLAPP win would have allowed them to recover costs, which in US litigation is notably rare.
> 
> el
> 
> -- 
> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
> On 19 May 2019, 06:54 +0200, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com>, wrote:
>> Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising. 
>> 
>> RB 
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From sob at sobco.com  Sun May 19 13:01:37 2019
From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 16:01:37 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>

yes, Techdirt won the first round - the defeated the complaint 

they did not win everything since they did not get the SLAPP decision they wanted but
Ayyadurai did not get to collect a lot of money or to put Techdirt out of business

Scott 

> On May 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:
> 
> Did they? As it stands, Techdirt will not collect any fees and its SLAPP suit has been dropped. 
> 
>> On May 19, 2019, at 4:17 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:
>> 
>> Richard,
>> 
>> that is a bit selective.
>> 
>> They did win the first round.
>> 
>> But as protected speech. An Anti-SLAPP win would have allowed them to recover costs, which in US litigation is notably rare.
>> 
>> el
>> 
>> -- 
>> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>> On 19 May 2019, 06:54 +0200, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com>, wrote:
>>> Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising. 
>>> 
>>> RB 
>> 
>> 
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 
> ?
> Richard Bennett
> High Tech Forum Founder
> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
> 
> Internet Policy Consultant
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.




From karl at cavebear.com  Sun May 19 13:48:17 2019
From: karl at cavebear.com (Karl Auerbach)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 13:48:17 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
	<fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <31ebb3c1-5c2f-bcff-bbd9-590f6e456fce@cavebear.com>

On 5/18/19 6:41 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:

> On 5/18/2019 4:36 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
>> Does it really, really matter who can lay claim to email?
> Does clarity about the details of history matter?  People tend to think
> it does.  For many reasons.

I agree with Dave's point - clarity does matter.? (And when it comes to 
e-mail I can not think of a greater authority than Dave Crocker.)

However, my thought of how to respond goes in a somewhat different 
direction.

My wife (Chris Wellens) and I set forth some years ago to try to collect 
long (several hour long) interviews with people involved with the 
invention of the internet. We had to take a hiatus, but we will be 
resuming soon.? (Many of you on this list are probably also on our list 
of people we want to talk to.)

Our intention is to publish every second of the raw takes of those 
interviews, the video and the audio, under a non-commercial use Creative 
Commons license (we added the non-commercial part because we fear abuse 
of the material by hack popular history outlets such as History 
Channel.)? (Some of our interviewees have requested that their comments 
be published directly into the public domain.)? We've had an informal 
offer from the Internet Archives that they would be willing to host 
these materials, which is something we hope to do.

We also plan our own focused/edited selections, but as in Roshomon, each 
of us may see things differently; so we want to allow others to re-use 
the base materials to tell other stories and provide other views.

Our goal is not to illuminate specific technologies but, rather, to 
delve into the way that ideas came about, evolved, grew or faded, and 
conflicted.? We are more interested in the process of invention than in 
the technology of the invention.

My wife and I feel like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern in Hamlet - we have 
had the opportunity to play a role among other, larger actors, in a 
great event, the invention of the internet.? While these actors are 
alive we want to give them the opportunity to make a record about their 
roles and, and as important, their interactions with others.

With our compendium and others, those who make specious claims of 
invention will find it difficult to maintain that claim over the decades 
(and probably centuries) as people ask "how did this great thing come to 
be?"

 ??? --karl--




From richard at bennett.com  Sun May 19 13:52:13 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 14:52:13 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
	<19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
Message-ID: <ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>

So nobody won but the lawyers.

> On May 19, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Scott O. Bradner <sob at sobco.com> wrote:
> 
> yes, Techdirt won the first round - the defeated the complaint 
> 
> they did not win everything since they did not get the SLAPP decision they wanted but
> Ayyadurai did not get to collect a lot of money or to put Techdirt out of business
> 
> Scott 
> 
>> On May 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Did they? As it stands, Techdirt will not collect any fees and its SLAPP suit has been dropped. 
>> 
>>> On May 19, 2019, at 4:17 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Richard,
>>> 
>>> that is a bit selective.
>>> 
>>> They did win the first round.
>>> 
>>> But as protected speech. An Anti-SLAPP win would have allowed them to recover costs, which in US litigation is notably rare.
>>> 
>>> el
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>>> On 19 May 2019, 06:54 +0200, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com>, wrote:
>>>> Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising. 
>>>> 
>>>> RB 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>> 
>> ?
>> Richard Bennett
>> High Tech Forum Founder
>> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>> 
>> Internet Policy Consultant
>> 
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sun May 19 14:01:41 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 14:01:41 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <31ebb3c1-5c2f-bcff-bbd9-590f6e456fce@cavebear.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
	<fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
	<31ebb3c1-5c2f-bcff-bbd9-590f6e456fce@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <b69cbe10-1660-eb69-19d2-14e262289b9e@dcrocker.net>

On 5/19/2019 1:48 PM, Karl Auerbach wrote:
> We also plan our own focused/edited selections, but as in Roshomon, each 
> of us may see things differently; so we want to allow others to re-use 
> the base materials to tell other stories and provide other views.


There are a number of efforts like this.  (I've lost count.)  In general 
the source material of many such recitations and perspectives is 
essential, IMO.

However there is also considerable benefit in trying to obtain industry 
agreement about consistent, reliable and accurate facts of the basics.

There is plenty of room for nuance, for honest debate, and differences 
in perspective.  But these are quite different from plain, simple, 
falsehoods.

So we need to separate serious 'conversation' about the details and 
import of a history, from efforts to inject misinformation into that 
conversation.

For example claiming that email was invented in 1978, rather than 1965. 
Or that email didn't emulate and office memo model until 1978, rather 
than roughly 1971. These are not nuances. They really do distinguish 
between reasonable truth and unreasonable falsehood.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From sob at sobco.com  Sun May 19 14:14:07 2019
From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 17:14:07 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
	<19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
	<ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <DD81C64D-CA86-47B7-A488-8ADF3C6D322F@sobco.com>

hello - Techdirt defeated the lawsuit thats a win, an expensive one, but a win


> On May 19, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:
> 
> So nobody won but the lawyers.
> 
>> On May 19, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Scott O. Bradner <sob at sobco.com> wrote:
>> 
>> yes, Techdirt won the first round - the defeated the complaint 
>> 
>> they did not win everything since they did not get the SLAPP decision they wanted but
>> Ayyadurai did not get to collect a lot of money or to put Techdirt out of business
>> 
>> Scott 
>> 
>>> On May 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Did they? As it stands, Techdirt will not collect any fees and its SLAPP suit has been dropped. 
>>> 
>>>> On May 19, 2019, at 4:17 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Richard,
>>>> 
>>>> that is a bit selective.
>>>> 
>>>> They did win the first round.
>>>> 
>>>> But as protected speech. An Anti-SLAPP win would have allowed them to recover costs, which in US litigation is notably rare.
>>>> 
>>>> el
>>>> 
>>>> -- 
>>>> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>>>> On 19 May 2019, 06:54 +0200, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com>, wrote:
>>>>> Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising. 
>>>>> 
>>>>> RB 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> _______
>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>> 
>>> ?
>>> Richard Bennett
>>> High Tech Forum Founder
>>> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>>> 
>>> Internet Policy Consultant
>>> 
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>> 
> 
> ?
> Richard Bennett
> High Tech Forum Founder
> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
> 
> Internet Policy Consultant
> 




From richard at bennett.com  Sun May 19 14:30:32 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 15:30:32 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <DD81C64D-CA86-47B7-A488-8ADF3C6D322F@sobco.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
	<19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
	<ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>
	<DD81C64D-CA86-47B7-A488-8ADF3C6D322F@sobco.com>
Message-ID: <A416987E-2288-4A15-B31D-62A3BC7378BD@bennett.com>

Yeah, there was never any question about the fact that the suit was meritless. Techdirt?s clickbait is reprehensible, but it?s the kind of reprehensible that?s protected by the First Amendment. The battle was always about the legal fees.

RB

> On May 19, 2019, at 3:14 PM, Scott O. Bradner <sob at sobco.com> wrote:
> 
> hello - Techdirt defeated the lawsuit thats a win, an expensive one, but a win
> 
> 
>> On May 19, 2019, at 4:52 PM, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:
>> 
>> So nobody won but the lawyers.
>> 
>>> On May 19, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Scott O. Bradner <sob at sobco.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> yes, Techdirt won the first round - the defeated the complaint 
>>> 
>>> they did not win everything since they did not get the SLAPP decision they wanted but
>>> Ayyadurai did not get to collect a lot of money or to put Techdirt out of business
>>> 
>>> Scott 
>>> 
>>>> On May 19, 2019, at 3:10 PM, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Did they? As it stands, Techdirt will not collect any fees and its SLAPP suit has been dropped. 
>>>> 
>>>>> On May 19, 2019, at 4:17 AM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.na> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Richard,
>>>>> 
>>>>> that is a bit selective.
>>>>> 
>>>>> They did win the first round.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But as protected speech. An Anti-SLAPP win would have allowed them to recover costs, which in US litigation is notably rare.
>>>>> 
>>>>> el
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- 
>>>>> Sent from Dr Lisse's iPad mini
>>>>> On 19 May 2019, 06:54 +0200, Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com>, wrote:
>>>>>> Techdirt already lost its anti-SLAPP suit against Ayyadurai. Given Masnick?s penchant for hyperbole, that wasn?t surprising. 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> RB 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> _______
>>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>> 
>>>> ?
>>>> Richard Bennett
>>>> High Tech Forum Founder
>>>> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>>>> 
>>>> Internet Policy Consultant
>>>> 
>>>> _______
>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>> 
>> 
>> ?
>> Richard Bennett
>> High Tech Forum Founder
>> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>> 
>> Internet Policy Consultant
>> 
> 

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From el at lisse.NA  Sun May 19 15:31:26 2019
From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 00:31:26 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <A416987E-2288-4A15-B31D-62A3BC7378BD@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
	<19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
	<ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>
	<DD81C64D-CA86-47B7-A488-8ADF3C6D322F@sobco.com>
	<A416987E-2288-4A15-B31D-62A3BC7378BD@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <1b7efa01-9b5a-ba29-1f06-adbaa75ee890@lisse.NA>

What is the actual difference (in the legal sense) between Ayyadurai
claiming free speech and Techdirt claiming free speech?

Other than that we don't like the substance of Ayyadurai's claim.

el

On 2019-05-19 23:30 , Richard Bennett wrote:
> Yeah, there was never any question about the fact that the suit was
> meritless.  Techdirt?s clickbait is reprehensible, but it?s the kind
> of reprehensible that?s protected by the First Amendment.  The battle
> was always about the legal fees.
>
> RB
>


From sob at sobco.com  Sun May 19 16:09:21 2019
From: sob at sobco.com (Scott O. Bradner)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 19:09:21 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <1b7efa01-9b5a-ba29-1f06-adbaa75ee890@lisse.NA>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
	<19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
	<ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>
	<DD81C64D-CA86-47B7-A488-8ADF3C6D322F@sobco.com>
	<A416987E-2288-4A15-B31D-62A3BC7378BD@bennett.com>
	<1b7efa01-9b5a-ba29-1f06-adbaa75ee890@lisse.NA>
Message-ID: <887F46B9-DEE2-4663-B8FE-99EDA5881BA2@sobco.com>

the fact that he sued over his version

Scott


> On May 19, 2019, at 6:31 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.NA> wrote:
> 
> What is the actual difference (in the legal sense) between Ayyadurai
> claiming free speech and Techdirt claiming free speech?
> 
> Other than that we don't like the substance of Ayyadurai's claim.
> 
> el
> 
> On 2019-05-19 23:30 , Richard Bennett wrote:
>> Yeah, there was never any question about the fact that the suit was
>> meritless.  Techdirt?s clickbait is reprehensible, but it?s the kind
>> of reprehensible that?s protected by the First Amendment.  The battle
>> was always about the legal fees.
>> 
>> RB
>> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.




From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sun May 19 17:49:06 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 17:49:06 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <1b7efa01-9b5a-ba29-1f06-adbaa75ee890@lisse.NA>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
	<590D17C4-07D0-4802-B2C6-E79E4843FD4F@bennett.com>
	<e0df003d-3088-472e-89c3-e0e051a0aa35@Spark>
	<80181A48-9F56-4564-AF4D-6DD26419120E@bennett.com>
	<19CA3CF6-606F-445C-AE47-AD7FE566742C@sobco.com>
	<ED9BC799-16F6-45E9-8201-22A03480BC62@bennett.com>
	<DD81C64D-CA86-47B7-A488-8ADF3C6D322F@sobco.com>
	<A416987E-2288-4A15-B31D-62A3BC7378BD@bennett.com>
	<1b7efa01-9b5a-ba29-1f06-adbaa75ee890@lisse.NA>
Message-ID: <6980bc70-7ccd-c146-8589-c119e70ed5be@dcrocker.net>

On 5/19/2019 3:31 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
> What is the actual difference (in the legal sense) between Ayyadurai
> claiming free speech and Techdirt claiming free speech?


The question seems to have the premise that someone argued he didn't 
have the right to make false claims of invention.  I don't recall anyone 
doing that.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From johnl at iecc.com  Sun May 19 19:38:15 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 19 May 2019 22:38:15 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <6980bc70-7ccd-c146-8589-c119e70ed5be@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>

In article <1b7efa01-9b5a-ba29-1f06-adbaa75ee890 at lisse.NA> you write:
>What is the actual difference (in the legal sense) between Ayyadurai
>claiming free speech and Techdirt claiming free speech?

Ayyarudai was claiming defamation, not free speech.  Nobody ever
asserted that he can't say whatever nonsense he wants.

I'd say this is a mild loss for Masnick.  Having read all of the
material in dispute, and being familiar with the facts, I found that
Masnick's articles were all true.  Ayyadurai has been extremely
disingenuous, notably when he filed for copyright on his mail program
and then said that meant that the government had accepted his claim to
be the inventor of e-mail, while at most it meant that they'd accepted
his claim to have written one particular mail program in the 1970s.

Masnick could probably have won his suit, but in the absence of the
California SLAPP law (Ayyadurai is in Masachusetss) it's unlikely he
could have gotten his legal costs so he was better off settling.  All
he agreed to do was to add some more links to Ayyadurai's web site.

Ayyadurai's claims to have invented e-mail in 1978 were and are
absurd.  Many people on this list were using e-mail years earlier.





From johnl at iecc.com  Sun May 19 19:39:58 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 19 May 2019 22:39:58 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <9c47d2ac-9079-4e47-81cc-250f77ff0aa1@Spark>
Message-ID: <20190520023959.124D220144C94A@ary.qy>

In article <9c47d2ac-9079-4e47-81cc-250f77ff0aa1 at Spark> you write:
>I agree, but a false claim, per se, or "gaining position" is not "criminal".

Could you remind us who or what ever claimed that it was?

Ayyadurai sued Masnick for defaamation, not the other way around.



From johnl at iecc.com  Sun May 19 19:41:32 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 19 May 2019 22:41:32 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <20190520024132.E22A920144C9A3@ary.qy>

In article <510cdce0-c742-db50-618b-3e0922e08ecf at meetinghouse.net> you write:
>I kind of see it as a win for Ayyadurai - in that he's no longer facing 
>a massive counter-suit.

What massive counter-suit?  Masnick just tried to use the California
SLAPP law to get his legal costs.  That's hardly massive.



From richard at bennett.com  Sun May 19 20:25:01 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 21:25:01 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>
References: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <8BBCFBA0-CB77-475E-ADCF-FC441DD168A8@bennett.com>

Some have said Ayyadurai should be muzzled, especially in the campaign to have his posts removed from Huffy Puffy. That campaign was successful, IIRC. But I didn?t follow this case very closely.

RB

> On May 19, 2019, at 8:38 PM, John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
> 
> Ayyarudai was claiming defamation, not free speech.  Nobody ever
> asserted that he can't say whatever nonsense he wants.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Sun May 19 21:06:45 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sun, 19 May 2019 21:06:45 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <8BBCFBA0-CB77-475E-ADCF-FC441DD168A8@bennett.com>
References: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>
	<8BBCFBA0-CB77-475E-ADCF-FC441DD168A8@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <78c175ef-bbd4-1b21-a483-7a83291f411d@dcrocker.net>


> Some have said Ayyadurai should be muzzled, especially in the campaign 
> to have his posts removed from Huffy Puffy. That campaign was 
> successful, IIRC. But I didn?t follow this case very closely.


For any interesting topic, there is almost always someone, somewhere, 
who said whatever random thing one might want to quote. So "some have 
said" has rather less import than one might wish for, in a discussion 
about efforts to suppress speech.

In particular there was nothing like that said in this discussion.  So 
it is at least a new topic here and referencing attempts to prevent his 
speech at least needed background.

More importantly, it's massively obvious that there's been no meaningful 
effort to prevent his speech anywhere.

d/

ps. BTW, just to make the point:  freedom of speech refers to strictures 
against governmental processes; it does not require that any specific 
person be given access to any particular venue under private control. 
Such as HuffPost.

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From mark at good-stuff.co.uk  Sun May 19 23:14:18 2019
From: mark at good-stuff.co.uk (Mark Goodge)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 07:14:18 +0100
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <547332f9-6c26-92f5-beb2-a4fa4678936e@good-stuff.co.uk>



On 18/05/2019 22:26, Richard Bennett wrote:
> Is this a win or a loss for Masnick?
> 
> It looks like Ayyadurai has won. Masnick has to give him free 
> advertising after spending a small fortune to defend his speech rights 
> and Ayyadurai doesn't have to give up his criminal ways.

Legally, nobody has won, as it was settled out of court.

In practice, Masnick has won, as Ayyadurai has failed to make his claim 
for defamation stick. The agreement to include a link to Ayyadurai's 
website is essentially just a sop to make it look like both sides have 
given some ground.

Basically, what this means is that if anyone else wants to describe 
Ayyadurai's claim to inventing email as false, they are free to do so. 
If Ayyadurai can't win in a case against Masnick, he can't win against 
anyone else either.

Mark


From vint at google.com  Mon May 20 05:07:19 2019
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 08:07:19 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <31ebb3c1-5c2f-bcff-bbd9-590f6e456fce@cavebear.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
	<fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
	<31ebb3c1-5c2f-bcff-bbd9-590f6e456fce@cavebear.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdAmHvc8CWLS7DXePHroqxi_BgmqjjdabYLkYNczpZpMg@mail.gmail.com>

Andreu Vea' has a book of 300+ interviews taken over a period of at least
20 years. It was published in Spanish but an English language version is on
the way.

vint


On Sun, May 19, 2019 at 4:54 PM Karl Auerbach <karl at cavebear.com> wrote:

> On 5/18/19 6:41 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
>
> > On 5/18/2019 4:36 PM, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
> >> Does it really, really matter who can lay claim to email?
> > Does clarity about the details of history matter?  People tend to think
> > it does.  For many reasons.
>
> I agree with Dave's point - clarity does matter.  (And when it comes to
> e-mail I can not think of a greater authority than Dave Crocker.)
>
> However, my thought of how to respond goes in a somewhat different
> direction.
>
> My wife (Chris Wellens) and I set forth some years ago to try to collect
> long (several hour long) interviews with people involved with the
> invention of the internet. We had to take a hiatus, but we will be
> resuming soon.  (Many of you on this list are probably also on our list
> of people we want to talk to.)
>
> Our intention is to publish every second of the raw takes of those
> interviews, the video and the audio, under a non-commercial use Creative
> Commons license (we added the non-commercial part because we fear abuse
> of the material by hack popular history outlets such as History
> Channel.)  (Some of our interviewees have requested that their comments
> be published directly into the public domain.)  We've had an informal
> offer from the Internet Archives that they would be willing to host
> these materials, which is something we hope to do.
>
> We also plan our own focused/edited selections, but as in Roshomon, each
> of us may see things differently; so we want to allow others to re-use
> the base materials to tell other stories and provide other views.
>
> Our goal is not to illuminate specific technologies but, rather, to
> delve into the way that ideas came about, evolved, grew or faded, and
> conflicted.  We are more interested in the process of invention than in
> the technology of the invention.
>
> My wife and I feel like Rosencrantz and Guildenstern in Hamlet - we have
> had the opportunity to play a role among other, larger actors, in a
> great event, the invention of the internet.  While these actors are
> alive we want to give them the opportunity to make a record about their
> roles and, and as important, their interactions with others.
>
> With our compendium and others, those who make specious claims of
> invention will find it difficult to maintain that claim over the decades
> (and probably centuries) as people ask "how did this great thing come to
> be?"
>
>      --karl--
>
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Mon May 20 06:11:37 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 06:11:37 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdAmHvc8CWLS7DXePHroqxi_BgmqjjdabYLkYNczpZpMg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<79D55896-EE50-4C4F-A135-1C521D8127EE@bennett.com>
	<a94d539b-ebd1-6828-099d-241b74c534c8@lisse.NA>
	<fb4ef464-62d8-6487-3e8a-4df371776dc7@dcrocker.net>
	<31ebb3c1-5c2f-bcff-bbd9-590f6e456fce@cavebear.com>
	<CAHxHggdAmHvc8CWLS7DXePHroqxi_BgmqjjdabYLkYNczpZpMg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <65751f3e-c246-2d39-8c16-3080efefcc6f@dcrocker.net>


> Andreu Vea' has a book of 300+ interviews


Also Russ White, et al's Network Collective effort:

 
https://thenetworkcollective.com/category/history-of-networking,ad-supported-history-of-networking/


And CyberLab's Oral History of the Internet:

      http://www.cyberlabs.org/articles/21

d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From richard at bennett.com  Mon May 20 14:37:26 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 15:37:26 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <78c175ef-bbd4-1b21-a483-7a83291f411d@dcrocker.net>
References: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>
	<8BBCFBA0-CB77-475E-ADCF-FC441DD168A8@bennett.com>
	<78c175ef-bbd4-1b21-a483-7a83291f411d@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11@bennett.com>

Yeah, Dave?s claim that there was no meaningful campaign to censor Ayyadurai is disingenuous at best. Masnick himself took part in the (successful) campaign to have the Huffington Post series on Ayyadurai?s claims removed or identified as sponsored posts in a very long Sep 2nd, 2014 post on Techdirt.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140901/07280928386/huffpo-publishes-bizarre-misleading-factually-incorrect-multi-part-series-pretending-guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml <https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140901/07280928386/huffpo-publishes-bizarre-misleading-factually-incorrect-multi-part-series-pretending-guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml>:

"It's unclear why Huffington Post is publishing this ludicrous and disproven narrative. It's unclear why one of the biggest names in PR is involved in all of this, though you can take some guesses. But there are facts, and they include that "electronic mail" existed long before V.A. Shiva Ayyadurai wrote his program as a precocious teenager. Huffington Post is either not disclosing a paid-for series of posts (which would be a massive ethical breach) or they've been taken for a ride. Neither option speaks well of HuffPo and its journalistic integrity."

Dave is inclined to hair-splitting so he?ll want to say ?Masnick never actually, literally said ?take down these posts today!??. While that?s semi-factual, Masnick's claim that Huffington Post published material damaging to "its journalistic integrity? strongly suggests that Huffington Post should take actions to restore said integrity, such as labeling the post as pay-to-play or removing them. In the end, Huffington Post acceded to Masnick?s charges and removed them. Would Huffington Post have removed these posts without Masnick?s pressure? I doubt it, but we?ll never know. 

RB

> On May 19, 2019, at 10:06 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> 
> More importantly, it's massively obvious that there's been no meaningful 
> effort to prevent his speech anywhere.
> 
> d/
> 
> ps. BTW, just to make the point:  freedom of speech refers to strictures 
> against governmental processes; it does not require that any specific 
> person be given access to any particular venue under private control. 
> Such as HuffPost.
> 
> -- 
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Mon May 20 15:13:59 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 15:13:59 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11@bennett.com>
References: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>
	<8BBCFBA0-CB77-475E-ADCF-FC441DD168A8@bennett.com>
	<78c175ef-bbd4-1b21-a483-7a83291f411d@dcrocker.net>
	<97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <9fac0949-2ca0-5642-5aea-f0d2c26395b5@dcrocker.net>


> Yeah, Dave?s claim that there was no meaningful campaign to censor 
> Ayyadurai is disingenuous at best. Masnick himself took part in the 
> (successful) campaign to have the?Huffington Post series on Ayyadurai?s 
> claims removed or identified as sponsored posts in a very long Sep 2nd, 
> 2014 post on Techdirt.
...
> Dave is inclined to hair-splitting so he?ll want to say??Masnick never 
> actually, literally said??take down these posts today!??.
...


Ad hominems notwithstanding, one publication criticizing the merits of 
an article by another is not censorship or attempted censorship.  It is 
dialogue.  And the difference between censorship and dialogue is not 
hair-splitting.

Further techdirt's language you quote is quite mild, given how odd the 
HuffPost article is and given how successful these misrepresentations of 
history have been.  On the other hand, it is also interesting to note 
that the HuffPost series of articles does appear to have been removed, 
and that there are some later HuffPost articles about this topic that 
are not nearly so kind to him.

As foundational material, keep in mind that besides tricking the 
Smithsonian and the Washington Post, there's even been a television 
segment touting the false claim.(*)

In any case, it's clear that the folk making the error did not do even 
basic research.  In some cases, the language seems likely to have been 
provided by the claimant's agents, rather than by independent writers. 
(Catch phrases, excessively lauditory language, simplistic dismissal of 
prior work, etc.)



d/

(*) 
https://www.thehenryford.org/explore/innovation-nation/episodes/inventor-of-email/


-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From richard at bennett.com  Mon May 20 15:48:16 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2019 16:48:16 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <9fac0949-2ca0-5642-5aea-f0d2c26395b5@dcrocker.net>
References: <20190520023816.2A9C820144C90D@ary.qy>
	<8BBCFBA0-CB77-475E-ADCF-FC441DD168A8@bennett.com>
	<78c175ef-bbd4-1b21-a483-7a83291f411d@dcrocker.net>
	<97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11@bennett.com>
	<9fac0949-2ca0-5642-5aea-f0d2c26395b5@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <36A41A2C-762E-4C12-A7CC-28A163479F1B@bennett.com>

LOL.

> On May 20, 2019, at 4:13 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> 
> Ad hominems notwithstanding, one publication criticizing the merits of 
> an article by another is not censorship or attempted censorship.  It is 
> dialogue.  And the difference between censorship and dialogue is not 
> hair-splitting.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From johnl at iecc.com  Mon May 20 20:55:40 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 20 May 2019 23:55:40 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <20190521035542.77AC520145B1B9@ary.qy>

In article <97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11 at bennett.com> you write:
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>-=-=-=-=-=-
>
>Yeah, Dave?s claim that there was no meaningful campaign to censor Ayyadurai is disingenuous at best. Masnick himself took part in the (successful) campaign to have the Huffington Post series on
>Ayyadurai?s claims removed or identified as sponsored posts in a very long Sep 2nd, 2014 post on Techdirt.
>
>https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140901/07280928386/huffpo-publishes-bizarre-misleading-factually-incorrect-multi-part-series-pretending-guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml

For anyone still interested, I'd suggest reading the article rather
than a few out of context quotes.  

As I read it, Masnick was surprised and annoyed that Huff Po was
running a series repeating Ayyadurai's nonsense, and pointed out that
the authors of the series appeared to be PR flacks. 

Oh, and don't miss the "rebuttal" that it now links to, which starts
with a list of testimonials by famous people who share the key
characteristic that none of them know anything about e-mail.

R's,
John


From joly at punkcast.com  Mon May 20 21:57:29 2019
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 00:57:29 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190521035542.77AC520145B1B9@ary.qy>
References: <97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11@bennett.com>
	<20190521035542.77AC520145B1B9@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk194FpNfmPL2vPSHcPJCXC_bcwfoO1iZSkXNbqGJhkvxw@mail.gmail.com>

If it's any satisfaction, at least his run for Senate did not appear to
resonate with the Massachusetts public.

https://ballotpedia.org/Shiva_Ayyadurai



On Mon, May 20, 2019 at 11:55 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:

> In article <97D8029A-D613-4512-9DDA-89787F8D3C11 at bennett.com> you write:
> >-=-=-=-=-=-
> >-=-=-=-=-=-
> >
> >Yeah, Dave?s claim that there was no meaningful campaign to censor
> Ayyadurai is disingenuous at best. Masnick himself took part in the
> (successful) campaign to have the Huffington Post series on
> >Ayyadurai?s claims removed or identified as sponsored posts in a very
> long Sep 2nd, 2014 post on Techdirt.
> >
> >
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20140901/07280928386/huffpo-publishes-bizarre-misleading-factually-incorrect-multi-part-series-pretending-guy-invented-email-even-though-he-didnt.shtml
>
> For anyone still interested, I'd suggest reading the article rather
> than a few out of context quotes.
>
> As I read it, Masnick was surprised and annoyed that Huff Po was
> running a series repeating Ayyadurai's nonsense, and pointed out that
> the authors of the series appeared to be PR flacks.
>
> Oh, and don't miss the "rebuttal" that it now links to, which starts
> with a list of testimonials by famous people who share the key
> characteristic that none of them know anything about e-mail.
>
> R's,
> John
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
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From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Tue May 21 08:00:17 2019
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 11:00:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
Message-ID: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Richard Bennett

    > Masnick's claim that Huffington Post published material damaging to
    > "its journalistic integrity"

But those articles _would_ damage the journalistic reputation of a news
organization which published them. (I'm going to avoid the rathole of
whether HuffPo has any journalistic reputation.)

    > strongly suggests that Huffington Post should take actions to
    > restore said integrity

This is a real tar-pit. I get your point, but chastising the HuffPo can't
really be attacking _Ayyadurai_'s speech rights, but rather HuffPo's.

And pointing out someone's busted speech happens all the time, and while
such activity does implicitly call for a reaction from the attackee, i) it
doesn't on its own suggest what the reaction should be, and ii) does this
mean that _all_ such pointings-out are illegitimate (since by this
standard they're attacks on free speech)? If the latter, what _is_ the
appropriate response to someone saying, or publishing, something bogus?
Surely not silence!


I wonder to what degree Ayyadurai's campaign to get credit was just part of
the runup to his Senate campaign? If so, his defeat there is true karma.

	Noel


From johnl at iecc.com  Tue May 21 08:58:25 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 21 May 2019 11:58:25 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>

In article <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> you write:
>I wonder to what degree Ayyadurai's campaign to get credit was just part of
>the runup to his Senate campaign? If so, his defeat there is true karma.

He started claiming he invented email around 2012 and the senate campaign was
in 2017-2018, so I doubt that was the motivation.

Here is a well researched and quite long piece on the whole sorry
story, published on the ACM SIGCIS web site by Thomas Haigh, an actual
historian:

http://www.sigcis.org/ayyadurai



From agmalis at gmail.com  Tue May 21 10:33:58 2019
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 13:33:58 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU008SRFhpBEyw=rgRMGFPRifh5qMO+SCmf4SAfbBvZ8VA@mail.gmail.com>

His (vanity) Senate campaign was an attempt at a Trump-style populist
campaign, which primarily consisted of name calling at Elizabeth Warren's
expense, and included such activities as defacing US postal service
mailboxes with his bumper stickers, which I've NEVER seen any candidate do
before, at least here in Andover.

He self-funded his campaign to the tune of 4.8M. He collected about $200K
in other contributions. See
https://www.fec.gov/data/committee/C00638148/?cycle=2018 for the details.

Cheers,
Andy


On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 12:17 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:

> In article <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> you write:
> >I wonder to what degree Ayyadurai's campaign to get credit was just part
> of
> >the runup to his Senate campaign? If so, his defeat there is true karma.
>
> He started claiming he invented email around 2012 and the senate campaign
> was
> in 2017-2018, so I doubt that was the motivation.
>
> Here is a well researched and quite long piece on the whole sorry
> story, published on the ACM SIGCIS web site by Thomas Haigh, an actual
> historian:
>
> http://www.sigcis.org/ayyadurai
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
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From richard at bennett.com  Tue May 21 11:16:21 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 12:16:21 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>

Masnick was successful in getting the Huff Po articles removed. 

> On May 21, 2019, at 9:00 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
> 
>> From: Richard Bennett
> 
>> Masnick's claim that Huffington Post published material damaging to
>> "its journalistic integrity"
> 
> But those articles _would_ damage the journalistic reputation of a news
> organization which published them. (I'm going to avoid the rathole of
> whether HuffPo has any journalistic reputation.)
> 
>> strongly suggests that Huffington Post should take actions to
>> restore said integrity
> 
> This is a real tar-pit. I get your point, but chastising the HuffPo can't
> really be attacking _Ayyadurai_'s speech rights, but rather HuffPo's.
> 
> And pointing out someone's busted speech happens all the time, and while
> such activity does implicitly call for a reaction from the attackee, i) it
> doesn't on its own suggest what the reaction should be, and ii) does this
> mean that _all_ such pointings-out are illegitimate (since by this
> standard they're attacks on free speech)? If the latter, what _is_ the
> appropriate response to someone saying, or publishing, something bogus?
> Surely not silence!
> 
> 
> I wonder to what degree Ayyadurai's campaign to get credit was just part of
> the runup to his Senate campaign? If so, his defeat there is true karma.
> 
> 	Noel

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From crossd at gmail.com  Tue May 21 12:37:17 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 15:37:17 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5oRf3tLERvzOEV89HC4xQPaG1pwGZ75fVBkYbWk3GAJQ@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, May 21, 2019, 2:27 PM Richard Bennett <richard at bennett.com> wrote:

> Masnick was successful in getting the Huff Po articles removed.
>

HuffPo is a news organization. It's stories on this fraudster were
inaccurate. News organizations have a long history of issuing corrections,
or even retracting articles, to correct factual inaccuracies in their
reporting. This is nothing new, nor is it censorship.

        - Dan C.

> On May 21, 2019, at 9:00 AM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> wrote:
>
> From: Richard Bennett
>
>
> Masnick's claim that Huffington Post published material damaging to
> "its journalistic integrity"
>
>
> But those articles _would_ damage the journalistic reputation of a news
> organization which published them. (I'm going to avoid the rathole of
> whether HuffPo has any journalistic reputation.)
>
> strongly suggests that Huffington Post should take actions to
> restore said integrity
>
>
> This is a real tar-pit. I get your point, but chastising the HuffPo can't
> really be attacking _Ayyadurai_'s speech rights, but rather HuffPo's.
>
> And pointing out someone's busted speech happens all the time, and while
> such activity does implicitly call for a reaction from the attackee, i) it
> doesn't on its own suggest what the reaction should be, and ii) does this
> mean that _all_ such pointings-out are illegitimate (since by this
> standard they're attacks on free speech)? If the latter, what _is_ the
> appropriate response to someone saying, or publishing, something bogus?
> Surely not silence!
>
>
> I wonder to what degree Ayyadurai's campaign to get credit was just part of
> the runup to his Senate campaign? If so, his defeat there is true karma.
>
> Noel
>
>
> ?
> Richard Bennett
> High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org> Founder
> Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator
>
> Internet Policy Consultant
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Tue May 21 13:38:22 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 13:38:22 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <0fcce9c8-c89c-94e0-1c5b-9d5bf8c58fd7@dcrocker.net>

On 5/21/2019 11:16 AM, Richard Bennett wrote:
> Masnick was successful in getting the Huff Po articles removed.


Beside his article that you quoted from -- which, though critical, did 
not call for removal -- what other documentation is there that the 
removal was due to his/their efforts?

Also note that later HuffPost pieces about this guy are quite different 
from the removed puff piece, and join in the skepticism and criticsm of him.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From richard at bennett.com  Tue May 21 14:26:39 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Tue, 21 May 2019 15:26:39 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <0fcce9c8-c89c-94e0-1c5b-9d5bf8c58fd7@dcrocker.net>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>
	<0fcce9c8-c89c-94e0-1c5b-9d5bf8c58fd7@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <F71D81DF-F501-4C9E-948D-35311F67AB3A@bennett.com>

What would be the point of my sharing additional evidence that Masnick successfully pressured Huffington Post to censor Ayyadurai?s false claims? If you can?t see it already you never will.

RB 

> On May 21, 2019, at 2:38 PM, Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:
> 
> On 5/21/2019 11:16 AM, Richard Bennett wrote:
>> Masnick was successful in getting the Huff Po articles removed.
> 
> 
> Beside his article that you quoted from -- which, though critical, did not call for removal -- what other documentation is there that the removal was due to his/their efforts?
> 
> Also note that later HuffPost pieces about this guy are quite different from the removed puff piece, and join in the skepticism and criticsm of him.
> 
> d/
> 
> -- 
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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From johnl at iecc.com  Tue May 21 15:21:22 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 21 May 2019 18:21:22 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <F71D81DF-F501-4C9E-948D-35311F67AB3A@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <20190521222123.10752201461B8B@ary.qy>

In article <F71D81DF-F501-4C9E-948D-35311F67AB3A at bennett.com> you write:
>What would be the point of my sharing additional evidence that Masnick successfully pressured Huffington Post to censor
>Ayyadurai?s false claims? If you can?t see it already you never will.

I guess you see what you want to.



From el at lisse.NA  Tue May 21 15:52:20 2019
From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Wed, 22 May 2019 00:52:20 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <F71D81DF-F501-4C9E-948D-35311F67AB3A@bennett.com>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<716BC0B0-A445-4FDB-B8DC-80323DE425DF@bennett.com>
	<0fcce9c8-c89c-94e0-1c5b-9d5bf8c58fd7@dcrocker.net>
	<F71D81DF-F501-4C9E-948D-35311F67AB3A@bennett.com>
Message-ID: <f79e518d-811d-f36b-179d-d506e9d2dd2a@lisse.NA>

If you can to see already it you always will :-)-O

el

On 2019-05-21 23:26 , Richard Bennett wrote:
> What would be the point of my sharing additional evidence that Masnick
> successfully pressured Huffington Post to censor Ayyadurai?s false
> claims?  If you can?t see it already you never will.
> 
> RB 
[...]

-- 
Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse          / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar)
el at lisse.NA            / *     |   Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell)
PO Box 8421                  /
Bachbrecht, Namibia     ;____/


From vint at google.com  Mon May 27 16:58:47 2019
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 19:58:47 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggeRSdmGLBwd282zb0koFWZ2HAC3z4cLJkoLc3bFKznbYg@mail.gmail.com>

Thomas Haigh's piece displays good academic research but is rife with typos.

That does not remove the substance of truth that Haigh offers. Ayyadurai's
claims are without merit.

v


On Tue, May 21, 2019 at 12:11 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:

> In article <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> you write:
> >I wonder to what degree Ayyadurai's campaign to get credit was just part
> of
> >the runup to his Senate campaign? If so, his defeat there is true karma.
>
> He started claiming he invented email around 2012 and the senate campaign
> was
> in 2017-2018, so I doubt that was the motivation.
>
> Here is a well researched and quite long piece on the whole sorry
> story, published on the ACM SIGCIS web site by Thomas Haigh, an actual
> historian:
>
> http://www.sigcis.org/ayyadurai
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Mon May 27 17:35:11 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 17:35:11 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggeRSdmGLBwd282zb0koFWZ2HAC3z4cLJkoLc3bFKznbYg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
	<CAHxHggeRSdmGLBwd282zb0koFWZ2HAC3z4cLJkoLc3bFKznbYg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <046f445a-9c1f-ecbb-b0c4-e2c34c780143@dcrocker.net>

On 5/27/2019 4:58 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> Thomas Haigh's piece displays good academic research but is rife with typos.


For me, the typos almost add some personality to the academic tone of 
his diligent work.

Anyhow, I posted this almost 4 years ago, but feel compelled to 
re-inject the reference to:

    http://emailhistory.org

which what prompted by the onset of this artificial controversy.  It 
contains a preliminary timeline for work on email, as well as a 
compendium of pointers to the many, thoughtful works on its history that 
have been independently developed over the years.


d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Mon May 27 18:26:14 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 18:26:14 -0700
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <046f445a-9c1f-ecbb-b0c4-e2c34c780143@dcrocker.net>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
	<CAHxHggeRSdmGLBwd282zb0koFWZ2HAC3z4cLJkoLc3bFKznbYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<046f445a-9c1f-ecbb-b0c4-e2c34c780143@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <78a5b33c-97a1-8082-ba4e-7db8e31bbcaa@dcrocker.net>


> Anyhow, I posted this almost 4 years ago, but feel compelled to
> re-inject the reference to:
> 
>      http://emailhistory.org


Oops.  VERY sorry.  The correct link is:

    http://emailhistory.net.

grrrr...

d/


-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From wayne at playaholic.com  Mon May 27 20:16:28 2019
From: wayne at playaholic.com (Wayne Hathaway)
Date: Mon, 27 May 2019 23:16:28 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <78a5b33c-97a1-8082-ba4e-7db8e31bbcaa@dcrocker.net>
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
	<CAHxHggeRSdmGLBwd282zb0koFWZ2HAC3z4cLJkoLc3bFKznbYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<046f445a-9c1f-ecbb-b0c4-e2c34c780143@dcrocker.net>
	<78a5b33c-97a1-8082-ba4e-7db8e31bbcaa@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <1559013388.heq1vmjqysggokss@hostingemail.digitalspace.net>

All this discussion of email history has triggered what I hope isn't just a false memory.
I was peripherally involved with early ARPA protocol designs, and remember co-authoring
a paper for SIGOPS on something like "Telnet, Its Influence on Operating System Design."
I particularly remember that I and the other four or five co-authors created the entire
paper using email; we never even had a telephone call, much less a meeting.  Anyway, I
also remember a paper delivered at that same conference that discussed email, and this
sticks in my mind particularly because there was an in-depth example of email headers on
one slide, showing To: and From: and the like.? I remember this because the particular
example chosen had the line "To: wayne at ames-67."? Hey, I thought -- that's me! :-)

Anyway, does anybody else have a similar memory?? As I recall, we sort of shoe-horned
the paper on Telnet in by using that "influence on operating system design" line.? I have
no idea how an email paper would have been shoehorned into a SIGOPS Conference, but
who knows.? Oh, I wasn't the author who presented the paper, either, so I don't even recall
where the conference was held.

Anybody?


Wayne Hathaway
wayne at playaholic.con?? [formerly wayne at ames-67? :-)]



From dave.walden.family at gmail.com  Tue May 28 01:29:18 2019
From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com (David Walden)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 04:29:18 -0400
Subject: [ih] Telnet paper by email
Message-ID: <p4gdg6pdujdr85pwkeem2nha.1559031070596@email.android.com>

Wayne,
This is probably the paper of which you are thinking.
   http://walden-family.com/public/telnet-overview.pdf
It was for the Fifth ACM/IEEE Symposium on Operating System Principles, September 1977.
It was reprinted in a couple of other places:  Partridge's compendium on networking innovations and the McQuillan/Cerf volume on network protocols.
Along with Bob Thomas, I organized the multi author writing effort, edited content together and sent drafts out for the other authors to review, and probably presented the paper.
Dave

On May 27, 2019, at 11:28 PM, Wayne Hathaway <wayne at playaholic.com> wrote:

All this discussion of email history has triggered what I hope isn't just a false memory.
I was peripherally involved with early ARPA protocol designs, and remember co-authoring
a paper for SIGOPS on something like "Telnet, Its Influence on Operating System Design."
I particularly remember that I and the other four or five co-authors created the entire
paper using email; we never even had a telephone call, much less a meeting.  Anyway, I
also remember a paper delivered at that same conference that discussed email, and this
sticks in my mind particularly because there was an in-depth example of email headers on
one slide, showing To: and From: and the like.? I remember this because the particular
example chosen had the line "To: wayne at ames-67."? Hey, I thought -- that's me! :-)

Anyway, does anybody else have a similar memory?? As I recall, we sort of shoe-horned
the paper on Telnet in by using that "influence on operating system design" line.? I have
no idea how an email paper would have been shoehorned into a SIGOPS Conference, but
who knows.? Oh, I wasn't the author who presented the paper, either, so I don't even recall
where the conference was held.

Anybody?


Wayne Hathaway
wayne at playaholic.con?? [formerly wayne at ames-67? :-)]

_______
internet-history mailing list
internet-history at postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.



From dave.walden.family at gmail.com  Tue May 28 01:41:41 2019
From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com (David Walden)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 04:41:41 -0400
Subject: [ih] Telnet paper by email
Message-ID: <xfxcan6iqxnxl22uedq147fi.1559032685011@email.android.com>

I misstated the conference.  It was the Fifth ACM/IEEE Symposium on Data Communications:  
https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=800103&picked=prox

On May 28, 2019, at 4:29 AM, David Walden <dave.walden.family at gmail.com> wrote:

>Wayne,
>This is probably the paper of which you are thinking.
>?? http://walden-family.com/public/telnet-overview.pdf
>It was for the Fifth ACM/IEEE Symposium on Operating System Principles, September 1977.
>It was reprinted in a couple of other places:? Partridge's compendium on networking innovations and the McQuillan/Cerf volume on network protocols.
>Along with Bob Thomas, I organized the multi author writing effort, edited content together and sent drafts out for the other authors to review, and probably presented the paper.
>Dave
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From ats at offog.org  Tue May 28 02:29:06 2019
From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson)
Date: Tue, 28 May 2019 10:29:06 +0100
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <1559013388.heq1vmjqysggokss@hostingemail.digitalspace.net>
	(Wayne Hathaway's message of "Mon, 27 May 2019 23:16:28 -0400")
References: <20190521150017.B255C18C0A3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<20190521155825.C751F20145CD48@ary.qy>
	<CAHxHggeRSdmGLBwd282zb0koFWZ2HAC3z4cLJkoLc3bFKznbYg@mail.gmail.com>
	<046f445a-9c1f-ecbb-b0c4-e2c34c780143@dcrocker.net>
	<78a5b33c-97a1-8082-ba4e-7db8e31bbcaa@dcrocker.net>
	<1559013388.heq1vmjqysggokss@hostingemail.digitalspace.net>
Message-ID: <y2ar28jorkt.fsf@offog.org>

Wayne Hathaway <wayne at playaholic.com> writes:

> [...] a paper for SIGOPS on something like "Telnet, Its Influence on
> Operating System Design."

I think that's this paper in SIGCOMM '77:

J. Davidson, W. Hathaway, J. Postel, N. Mimno, R. Thomas and D. Walden,
"The ARPANET TELNET protocol: Its purpose, principles, implementation,
and impact on host operating system design"

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=803338

> a paper delivered at that same conference that discussed email

It doesn't have the example you remember in the proceedings, but it
sounds like that could have been this one, which describes email headers
and addresses in some detail:

D. Austin Henderson, Jr. and Theodore H. Myer,
"Issues in message technology"

https://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=803348

-- 
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org>                         <http://offog.org/>


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Fri May 31 03:04:57 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 12:04:57 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <b53b1e32-65bc-ab62-e573-a8f75bf13276@dcrocker.net>

On 5/18/2019 1:30 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> Our Legal Dispute With Shiva Ayyadurai Is Now Over
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE


Just got a pointer to an in-depth analysis article by them.  Interesting 
reading:

      Laying Out All The Evidence: Shiva Ayyadurai Did Not Invent Email

 
https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190518/23370542236/laying-out-all-evidence-shiva-ayyadurai-did-not-invent-email.shtml 




d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From dhc at dcrocker.net  Fri May 31 03:27:24 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 12:27:24 +0200
Subject: [ih] Telnet paper by email
In-Reply-To: <p4gdg6pdujdr85pwkeem2nha.1559031070596@email.android.com>
References: <p4gdg6pdujdr85pwkeem2nha.1559031070596@email.android.com>
Message-ID: <699d3843-e5b5-9ebb-d7ea-e795d5a57c09@dcrocker.net>

On 5/28/2019 1:29 AM, David Walden wrote:
> It was for the Fifth ACM/IEEE Symposium on Operating System Principles, September 1977.


Might be worth mentioning that the popular email spec, RFC 733, was 
primarily developed via email.  The 4 of us worked at 4 different 
institutions, around the country.  We met once or twice, as I recall, 
but the bulk of the collaboration was via email.  This was also 1977. 
And I think that by then this sort of email-mediated collaboration had 
become pretty common, for those with access to Arpanet mail.

(My phrasing of that is because email relaying meant that some people 
could interact with Arpanet mail users even though their system was 
directly attached to the Arpanet: "To Be 'On' the Internet", RFC 1775.)

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From vint at google.com  Fri May 31 06:44:47 2019
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 09:44:47 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <b53b1e32-65bc-ab62-e573-a8f75bf13276@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<b53b1e32-65bc-ab62-e573-a8f75bf13276@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdycsKTKS9-gngZKVOdHX6VCXTsr+V4EzNKH9TznishXw@mail.gmail.com>

there is something trumpian about this - making a massively false claim has
kept ayyadurai's name visible in email storms among the cognoscenti for
several years now.

v


On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 6:27 AM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:

> On 5/18/2019 1:30 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> > Our Legal Dispute With Shiva Ayyadurai Is Now Over
> >
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190516/22284042229/our-legal-dispute-with-shiva-ayyadurai-is-now-over.shtml?fbclid=IwAR07Mxckh00SYYY8r4C-6IEGA4AKbYaEoG2g94fwv-BEAbWGX-ikHPhENXE
>
>
> Just got a pointer to an in-depth analysis article by them.  Interesting
> reading:
>
>       Laying Out All The Evidence: Shiva Ayyadurai Did Not Invent Email
>
>
>
> https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20190518/23370542236/laying-out-all-evidence-shiva-ayyadurai-did-not-invent-email.shtml
>
>
>
>
> d/
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From dhc at dcrocker.net  Fri May 31 08:09:32 2019
From: dhc at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 17:09:32 +0200
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdycsKTKS9-gngZKVOdHX6VCXTsr+V4EzNKH9TznishXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<b53b1e32-65bc-ab62-e573-a8f75bf13276@dcrocker.net>
	<CAHxHggdycsKTKS9-gngZKVOdHX6VCXTsr+V4EzNKH9TznishXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <d0290bb3-6921-701e-2df2-265a8031d087@dcrocker.net>

On 5/31/2019 3:44 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> there is something trumpian about this - making a massively false claim 
> has kept ayyadurai's name visible in email storms among the cognoscenti 
> for several years now.


To me, what has been most impressive -- and frankly emblematic of the 
larger fake news phenomenon -- is how poorly many journalists have done 
their job at vetting the claims.  Given that it takes maybe 2 minutes -- 
10 if one is diligent -- to establish the basic problem with his claims, 
this really is quite striking.

d/

ps. I believe the storms on lists like this are only due to the 
continuing public media and legal activities.  A stray claim getting 
little public coverage would get a single storm here, perhaps, but even 
we show a damping effect after that.


-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From joly at punkcast.com  Fri May 31 08:38:09 2019
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 11:38:09 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <d0290bb3-6921-701e-2df2-265a8031d087@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<b53b1e32-65bc-ab62-e573-a8f75bf13276@dcrocker.net>
	<CAHxHggdycsKTKS9-gngZKVOdHX6VCXTsr+V4EzNKH9TznishXw@mail.gmail.com>
	<d0290bb3-6921-701e-2df2-265a8031d087@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk3CcoC874MWJyUZFdF=F0BE8mbSwY=DOi7D+7m+gqNavQ@mail.gmail.com>

The lack of cynicism is a marked contrast to the undeserved Gore derision,
but yes, they are both journalism failures..

joly


On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 11:09 AM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:

> On 5/31/2019 3:44 PM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> > there is something trumpian about this - making a massively false claim
> > has kept ayyadurai's name visible in email storms among the cognoscenti
> > for several years now.
>
>
> To me, what has been most impressive -- and frankly emblematic of the
> larger fake news phenomenon -- is how poorly many journalists have done
> their job at vetting the claims.  Given that it takes maybe 2 minutes --
> 10 if one is diligent -- to establish the basic problem with his claims,
> this really is quite striking.
>
> d/
>
> ps. I believe the storms on lists like this are only due to the
> continuing public media and legal activities.  A stray claim getting
> little public coverage would get a single storm here, perhaps, but even
> we show a damping effect after that.
>
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
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From crossd at gmail.com  Fri May 31 08:48:46 2019
From: crossd at gmail.com (Dan Cross)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 11:48:46 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdycsKTKS9-gngZKVOdHX6VCXTsr+V4EzNKH9TznishXw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk31yN7oLMyyMYPGQe_9iRxeC+co_NHX_aD2DuxLXJMisQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<42114d39-872a-1a8a-f53b-e889bfad46e2@dcrocker.net>
	<b53b1e32-65bc-ab62-e573-a8f75bf13276@dcrocker.net>
	<CAHxHggdycsKTKS9-gngZKVOdHX6VCXTsr+V4EzNKH9TznishXw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 10:08 AM Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:

> there is something trumpian about this - making a massively false claim
> has kept ayyadurai's name visible in email storms among the cognoscenti for
> several years now.
>

One wonders why anyone should bother, but I am curious: If he were ignored,
would he fall into the obscurity he so readily deserves, or would he
continue burrowing through the legal system to try to force the issue?

Historically, the "correct" answer has been to ignore cranks. But when the
cranks force themselves into the spotlight, they can redefine the center
and push the non-cranks out to the fringe.

        - Dan C.
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From johnl at iecc.com  Fri May 31 10:45:26 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 31 May 2019 13:45:26 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
	"inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>

In article <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg at mail.gmail.com>,
Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>One wonders why anyone should bother, but I am curious: If he were ignored,
>would he fall into the obscurity he so readily deserves, or would he
>continue burrowing through the legal system to try to force the issue?

His legal tactic has been to sue people who publicly challenge his
story for libel, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
infliction of emotional distress.  If we ignore him, I can't see how
we're doing any of those.



From agmalis at gmail.com  Fri May 31 11:19:51 2019
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:19:51 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>
References: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>

Shiva got $750G in a settlement with Gawker Media over an article they
wrote about the email controversy in 2012 (this was part of the settlement
that got Hulk Hogan $31M). Since then, his philosophy is to try to sue
detractors into the ground.

Cheers,
Andy


On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:05 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:

> In article <
> CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg at mail.gmail.com>,
> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
> >One wonders why anyone should bother, but I am curious: If he were
> ignored,
> >would he fall into the obscurity he so readily deserves, or would he
> >continue burrowing through the legal system to try to force the issue?
>
> His legal tactic has been to sue people who publicly challenge his
> story for libel, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
> infliction of emotional distress.  If we ignore him, I can't see how
> we're doing any of those.
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
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From johnl at iecc.com  Fri May 31 11:26:38 2019
From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine)
Date: 31 May 2019 14:26:38 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>
	<CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.21.9999.1905311423490.79759@ary.qy>

> Shiva got $750G in a settlement with Gawker Media over an article they 
> wrote about the email controversy in 2012 (this was part of the 
> settlement that got Hulk Hogan $31M). Since then, his philosophy is to 
> try to sue detractors into the ground.

True, but the Gawker case was odd because the Hulk Hogan thing made them 
an easy target, and Peter Thiel who funded the suit had a long time grudge 
against them.

Regards,
John Levine, johnl at iecc.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The Internet for Dummies",
Please consider the environment before reading this e-mail. https://jl.ly


From vint at google.com  Fri May 31 11:36:49 2019
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:36:49 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>
	<CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggcYbT+RnWH07eNbNZxOePsK6RCt5uUCQOr9s1c+iSOjLA@mail.gmail.com>

how very trumpian.
what a bad role model.

v

On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:35 PM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis at gmail.com> wrote:

> Shiva got $750G in a settlement with Gawker Media over an article they
> wrote about the email controversy in 2012 (this was part of the settlement
> that got Hulk Hogan $31M). Since then, his philosophy is to try to sue
> detractors into the ground.
>
> Cheers,
> Andy
>
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:05 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <
>> CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg at mail.gmail.com>,
>> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >One wonders why anyone should bother, but I am curious: If he were
>> ignored,
>> >would he fall into the obscurity he so readily deserves, or would he
>> >continue burrowing through the legal system to try to force the issue?
>>
>> His legal tactic has been to sue people who publicly challenge his
>> story for libel, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
>> infliction of emotional distress.  If we ignore him, I can't see how
>> we're doing any of those.
>>
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From agmalis at gmail.com  Fri May 31 11:46:07 2019
From: agmalis at gmail.com (Andrew G. Malis)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:46:07 -0400
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggcYbT+RnWH07eNbNZxOePsK6RCt5uUCQOr9s1c+iSOjLA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>
	<CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggcYbT+RnWH07eNbNZxOePsK6RCt5uUCQOr9s1c+iSOjLA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA=duU1Sez5kDcDzbtJ5qjzz8_96xDqm6c-p+1AkozaeVnYZsA@mail.gmail.com>

Vint,

Trumpian is a very appropriate word. Here in Massachusetts, his Senate
campaign was as trumpian as it gets, mostly based on name calling against
Elizabeth Warren. I'm hoping that's the last time he runs for public office.

Cheers,
Andy


On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:37 PM Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:

> how very trumpian.
> what a bad role model.
>
> v
>
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:35 PM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Shiva got $750G in a settlement with Gawker Media over an article they
>> wrote about the email controversy in 2012 (this was part of the settlement
>> that got Hulk Hogan $31M). Since then, his philosophy is to try to sue
>> detractors into the ground.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Andy
>>
>>
>> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:05 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
>>
>>> In article <
>>> CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg at mail.gmail.com>,
>>> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >One wonders why anyone should bother, but I am curious: If he were
>>> ignored,
>>> >would he fall into the obscurity he so readily deserves, or would he
>>> >continue burrowing through the legal system to try to force the issue?
>>>
>>> His legal tactic has been to sue people who publicly challenge his
>>> story for libel, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
>>> infliction of emotional distress.  If we ignore him, I can't see how
>>> we're doing any of those.
>>>
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
>
>
> --
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
>
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From vint at google.com  Fri May 31 11:47:50 2019
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 14:47:50 -0400
Subject: [ih] Telnet paper by email
In-Reply-To: <699d3843-e5b5-9ebb-d7ea-e795d5a57c09@dcrocker.net>
References: <p4gdg6pdujdr85pwkeem2nha.1559031070596@email.android.com>
	<699d3843-e5b5-9ebb-d7ea-e795d5a57c09@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdw+O9Vt8E9LzLBKwfHTzPu+zu+AZAOLjeEyZyRijwHRg@mail.gmail.com>

..even though their system was NOT on the ARPANET...

v


On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 6:46 AM Dave Crocker <dhc at dcrocker.net> wrote:

> On 5/28/2019 1:29 AM, David Walden wrote:
> > It was for the Fifth ACM/IEEE Symposium on Operating System Principles,
> September 1977.
>
>
> Might be worth mentioning that the popular email spec, RFC 733, was
> primarily developed via email.  The 4 of us worked at 4 different
> institutions, around the country.  We met once or twice, as I recall,
> but the bulk of the collaboration was via email.  This was also 1977.
> And I think that by then this sort of email-mediated collaboration had
> become pretty common, for those with access to Arpanet mail.
>
> (My phrasing of that is because email relaying meant that some people
> could interact with Arpanet mail users even though their system was
> directly attached to the Arpanet: "To Be 'On' the Internet", RFC 1775.)
>
> d/
>
> --
> Dave Crocker
> Brandenburg InternetWorking
> bbiw.net
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From richard at bennett.com  Fri May 31 16:01:18 2019
From: richard at bennett.com (Richard Bennett)
Date: Fri, 31 May 2019 17:01:18 -0600
Subject: [ih] Defamation lawsuit brought by self-proclaimed email
 "inventor" settles
In-Reply-To: <CAA=duU1Sez5kDcDzbtJ5qjzz8_96xDqm6c-p+1AkozaeVnYZsA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg@mail.gmail.com>
	<20190531174526.DBCD92014DD476@ary.qy>
	<CAA=duU1zVpPq=BUEpCG4jrju4vZrpYW8F-ft6b_MJYSf+eWcSw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggcYbT+RnWH07eNbNZxOePsK6RCt5uUCQOr9s1c+iSOjLA@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA=duU1Sez5kDcDzbtJ5qjzz8_96xDqm6c-p+1AkozaeVnYZsA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9D6B7071-8D5B-408E-8660-E59A145C395D@bennett.com>

I had a little tiff with Ayyadurai on Twitter once over his bizarre claim that he could predict the amount of formaldehyde in GMO soy or corn through some AI that analyzed key words in science papers without actually measuring it. I ID?d him as the non-inventor of email and he pushed back. When I explained I had used corporate email systems in 1977 at two different companies he shut up and ran away.  

> On May 31, 2019, at 12:46 PM, Andrew G. Malis <agmalis at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Vint,
> 
> Trumpian is a very appropriate word. Here in Massachusetts, his Senate campaign was as trumpian as it gets, mostly based on name calling against Elizabeth Warren. I'm hoping that's the last time he runs for public office.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:37 PM Vint Cerf <vint at google.com <mailto:vint at google.com>> wrote:
> how very trumpian.
> what a bad role model.
> 
> v
> 
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:35 PM Andrew G. Malis <agmalis at gmail.com <mailto:agmalis at gmail.com>> wrote:
> Shiva got $750G in a settlement with Gawker Media over an article they wrote about the email controversy in 2012 (this was part of the settlement that got Hulk Hogan $31M). Since then, his philosophy is to try to sue detractors into the ground.
> 
> Cheers,
> Andy
> 
> 
> On Fri, May 31, 2019 at 2:05 PM John Levine <johnl at iecc.com <mailto:johnl at iecc.com>> wrote:
> In article <CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg at mail.gmail.com <mailto:CAEoi9W5bhaB2TaVvHDmKjz8XG2mPgSY6MoHvA74J4hSVShckDg at mail.gmail.com>>,
> Dan Cross <crossd at gmail.com <mailto:crossd at gmail.com>> wrote:
> >One wonders why anyone should bother, but I am curious: If he were ignored,
> >would he fall into the obscurity he so readily deserves, or would he
> >continue burrowing through the legal system to try to force the issue?
> 
> His legal tactic has been to sue people who publicly challenge his
> story for libel, interference with prospective economic advantage, and
> infliction of emotional distress.  If we ignore him, I can't see how
> we're doing any of those.
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
> 
> 
> -- 
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

?
Richard Bennett
High Tech Forum <http://hightechforum.org/> Founder
Ethernet & Wi-Fi standards co-creator

Internet Policy Consultant

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