From pawal at blipp.com  Mon Mar  7 02:06:24 2016
From: pawal at blipp.com (Patrik Wallstrom)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:06:24 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
References: <CAFt+5NJ6Zj1OeKqZbnyFttFitfgSFEFYoDXf25SkO1_eMrZ3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>

On 2015-02-20, Matthew Orlinski <me at shigs.co.uk> wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> I've not checked this list for quite some time but I wonder if you know
> about this.
>
> "The German city of Berlin is set to be the first to create a permanent
> museum that?s solely dedicated to the Internet. Planned to open in late
> 2015."
> http://www.psfk.com/2015/02/the-internet-museum-berlin.html

Hi,

Did it open? Where is it located?



From lars at netapp.com  Mon Mar  7 04:23:12 2016
From: lars at netapp.com (Eggert, Lars)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:23:12 +0000
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
References: <CAFt+5NJ6Zj1OeKqZbnyFttFitfgSFEFYoDXf25SkO1_eMrZ3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
Message-ID: <EA367A3E-CA15-421F-A9B5-2F9C049C8BE6@netapp.com>

It's the first hit when you google it... http://internetmuseum.berlin/english.html

Lars

On 2016-03-07, at 11:06, Patrik Wallstrom <pawal at blipp.com> wrote:
> 
> On 2015-02-20, Matthew Orlinski <me at shigs.co.uk> wrote:
>> Hi guys,
>> 
>> I've not checked this list for quite some time but I wonder if you know
>> about this.
>> 
>> "The German city of Berlin is set to be the first to create a permanent
>> museum that?s solely dedicated to the Internet. Planned to open in late
>> 2015."
>> http://www.psfk.com/2015/02/the-internet-museum-berlin.html
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Did it open? Where is it located?
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

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From pawal at blipp.com  Mon Mar  7 04:56:01 2016
From: pawal at blipp.com (Patrik Wallstrom)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:56:01 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
References: <CAFt+5NJ6Zj1OeKqZbnyFttFitfgSFEFYoDXf25SkO1_eMrZ3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
	<EA367A3E-CA15-421F-A9B5-2F9C049C8BE6@netapp.com>
Message-ID: <slrnndquj1.p4g.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>

Lars,

Yes. It still says "soon as a museum in Berlin!", so that is why I am asking.

On 2016-03-07, Eggert, Lars <lars at netapp.com> wrote:
> It's the first hit when you google it... http://internetmuseum.berlin/english.html
>
> Lars
>
> On 2016-03-07, at 11:06, Patrik Wallstrom <pawal at blipp.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 2015-02-20, Matthew Orlinski <me at shigs.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi guys,
>>> 
>>> I've not checked this list for quite some time but I wonder if you know
>>> about this.
>>> 
>>> "The German city of Berlin is set to be the first to create a permanent
>>> museum that?s solely dedicated to the Internet. Planned to open in late
>>> 2015."
>>> http://www.psfk.com/2015/02/the-internet-museum-berlin.html
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Did it open? Where is it located?
>> 
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>




From huopio at iki.fi  Mon Mar  7 04:56:36 2016
From: huopio at iki.fi (Kauto Huopio)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:56:36 +0200
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
References: <CAFt+5NJ6Zj1OeKqZbnyFttFitfgSFEFYoDXf25SkO1_eMrZ3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
Message-ID: <CAD7tVSTx28aio9LJJct2yNOw-HrEUE68=_og5rZvhJ1SO-5efg@mail.gmail.com>

A quick googling reveals this page:

http://www.internetmuseum.berlin/english.html

Still a work in progress?

--Kauto

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Patrik Wallstrom <pawal at blipp.com> wrote:

> On 2015-02-20, Matthew Orlinski <me at shigs.co.uk> wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > I've not checked this list for quite some time but I wonder if you know
> > about this.
> >
> > "The German city of Berlin is set to be the first to create a permanent
> > museum that?s solely dedicated to the Internet. Planned to open in late
> > 2015."
> > http://www.psfk.com/2015/02/the-internet-museum-berlin.html
>
> Hi,
>
> Did it open? Where is it located?
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>



-- 
Kauto Huopio - kauto at huopio.fi
Hansakallionkuja 12 A 1, 02780 Espoo, Finland
Tel. +358 40 5008774
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From jabley at hopcount.ca  Mon Mar  7 05:16:24 2016
From: jabley at hopcount.ca (Joe Abley)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 08:16:24 -0500
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <EA367A3E-CA15-421F-A9B5-2F9C049C8BE6@netapp.com>
References: <CAFt+5NJ6Zj1OeKqZbnyFttFitfgSFEFYoDXf25SkO1_eMrZ3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
	<EA367A3E-CA15-421F-A9B5-2F9C049C8BE6@netapp.com>
Message-ID: <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05@hopcount.ca>

Not http://internetberlin.museum/ or http://berlinmuseuminter.net/ then. That's confusing.

> On 7 Mar 2016, at 07:23, Eggert, Lars <lars at netapp.com> wrote:
> 
> It's the first hit when you google it... http://internetmuseum.berlin/english.html
> 
> Lars
> 
> On 2016-03-07, at 11:06, Patrik Wallstrom <pawal at blipp.com> wrote:
>> 
>> On 2015-02-20, Matthew Orlinski <me at shigs.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Hi guys,
>>> 
>>> I've not checked this list for quite some time but I wonder if you know
>>> about this.
>>> 
>>> "The German city of Berlin is set to be the first to create a permanent
>>> museum that?s solely dedicated to the Internet. Planned to open in late
>>> 2015."
>>> http://www.psfk.com/2015/02/the-internet-museum-berlin.html
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> Did it open? Where is it located?
>> 
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.




From alex at primafila.net  Mon Mar  7 05:35:00 2016
From: alex at primafila.net (Alessandro Ranellucci)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:35:00 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk0HbwCXxp26+UYVec2xB1JBXdniEVOM=q8atYhZb5b5eg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0HbwCXxp26+UYVec2xB1JBXdniEVOM=q8atYhZb5b5eg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E3DA59FE-E60E-448B-A231-44A03DB7FF4A@primafila.net>

Joly MacFie wrote:
> The computer engineer Raymond Tomlinson sent the first email in 1971. He can?t remember what it said, but people keep asking him anyway. ?It was completely ephemeral, so any trace of it is gone,? he said. ?There may be a machine that has some memory that was hooked up at the time, but you?d never be able to find it.?

Just in case someone missed the news, Raymond Tomlinson passed away two days ago.

- Alessandro Ranellucci




From b_a_denny at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  7 07:17:53 2016
From: b_a_denny at yahoo.com (Barbara Denny)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 15:17:53 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [ih] Ray Tomlinson
References: <245063502.5023536.1457363873637.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <245063502.5023536.1457363873637.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com>


I am sorry to send the sad news that Ray Tomlinson has died. I do get the digest of this list and 
I don't believe it has been mentioned here yet.? Here is a link to the Boston Globe's obituary.? Othersources have started to release reports too.

barbara


Inventor of modern email, Ray Tomlinson, dies

| ? |
| ? |  | ? | ? | ? | ? | ? |
| Inventor of modern email, Ray Tomlinson, diesRaymond Tomlinson, the inventor of modern email and a technological leader, has died, his employer said Sunday. |
|  |
| View on www.boston.com | Preview by Yahoo |
|  |
| ? |


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From matthias at baerwolff.de  Mon Mar  7 07:26:57 2016
From: matthias at baerwolff.de (=?UTF-8?Q?Matthias_B=C3=A4rwolff?=)
Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 16:26:57 +0100
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <CAD7tVSTx28aio9LJJct2yNOw-HrEUE68=_og5rZvhJ1SO-5efg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAFt+5NJ6Zj1OeKqZbnyFttFitfgSFEFYoDXf25SkO1_eMrZ3BQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<slrnndqkl0.871.pawal@vic20.blipp.com>
	<CAD7tVSTx28aio9LJJct2yNOw-HrEUE68=_og5rZvhJ1SO-5efg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABy8LgGnfZtNv5-r0eQXo2yww=d7_wUty5TEaBo0L4+-D9dugQ@mail.gmail.com>

I happen to be a Berliner, and I know of no such museum in Berlin. Might
 just be vaporware. If you read the text on the teaser website closely --
it is full of obvious writing and grammar errors. Doesn't look
professional, nor does it seem to have any corporate or other backing.

-Matthias

2016-03-07 13:56 GMT+01:00 Kauto Huopio <huopio at iki.fi>:

> A quick googling reveals this page:
>
> http://www.internetmuseum.berlin/english.html
>
> Still a work in progress?
>
> --Kauto
>
> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Patrik Wallstrom <pawal at blipp.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2015-02-20, Matthew Orlinski <me at shigs.co.uk> wrote:
>> > Hi guys,
>> >
>> > I've not checked this list for quite some time but I wonder if you know
>> > about this.
>> >
>> > "The German city of Berlin is set to be the first to create a permanent
>> > museum that?s solely dedicated to the Internet. Planned to open in late
>> > 2015."
>> > http://www.psfk.com/2015/02/the-internet-museum-berlin.html
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Did it open? Where is it located?
>>
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Kauto Huopio - kauto at huopio.fi
> Hansakallionkuja 12 A 1, 02780 Espoo, Finland
> Tel. +358 40 5008774
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
>
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From johnl at iecc.com  Tue Mar  8 02:28:36 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 8 Mar 2016 10:28:36 -0000
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05@hopcount.ca>
Message-ID: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05 at hopcount.ca> you write:
>Not http://internetberlin.museum/ or http://berlinmuseuminter.net/ then. That's confusing.

If you ever try to register something in .museum, you'll know why nobody does.

At one point, .berlin was giving away names for free, which I expect is why
they snagged a name there.  When I look at the web site, I see a spiffy web site,
a contact address of a post office box, and nothing more.

Don't expect a field trip when you're at the Berlin IETF.

R's,
John


From el at lisse.NA  Tue Mar  8 03:36:07 2016
From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 11:36:07 +0000
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56DEB927.4010109@lisse.NA>

Google is your friend, and it does help reading German :-)-O

The guy is a designer and felt that there is no real Internet Museum
for the general public, so he went and started one.

What's with the possessive tone of this thread, btw?

el


On 2016-03-08 10:28 , John Levine wrote:
> In article <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05 at hopcount.ca> you write:
>> Not http://internetberlin.museum/ or http://berlinmuseuminter.net/ then. That's confusing.
> 
> If you ever try to register something in .museum, you'll know why nobody does.
> 
> At one point, .berlin was giving away names for free, which I expect is why
> they snagged a name there.  When I look at the web site, I see a spiffy web site,
> a contact address of a post office box, and nothing more.
> 
> Don't expect a field trip when you're at the Berlin IETF.
> 
> R's,
> John
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 

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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Mar  8 10:48:39 2016
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:48:39 +1300
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <56DEB927.4010109@lisse.NA>
References: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan> <56DEB927.4010109@lisse.NA>
Message-ID: <56DF1E87.9090206@gmail.com>

On 09/03/2016 00:36, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
> Google is your friend, and it does help reading German :-)-O
> 
> The guy is a designer and felt that there is no real Internet Museum
> for the general public, so he went and started one.
> 
> What's with the possessive tone of this thread, btw?

Well, I think the issue is that an apparently empty web site is
worse than nothing.

I'm also curious to know what you would put in such a museum that
would be instructive. Generally, the Internet is its own museum.

    Brian

> 
> el
> 
> 
> On 2016-03-08 10:28 , John Levine wrote:
>> In article <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05 at hopcount.ca> you write:
>>> Not http://internetberlin.museum/ or http://berlinmuseuminter.net/ then. That's confusing.
>>
>> If you ever try to register something in .museum, you'll know why nobody does.
>>
>> At one point, .berlin was giving away names for free, which I expect is why
>> they snagged a name there.  When I look at the web site, I see a spiffy web site,
>> a contact address of a post office box, and nothing more.
>>
>> Don't expect a field trip when you're at the Berlin IETF.
>>
>> R's,
>> John
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 


From alan at clegg.com  Tue Mar  8 10:59:55 2016
From: alan at clegg.com (Alan Clegg)
Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 13:59:55 -0500
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <56DF1E87.9090206@gmail.com>
References: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan> <56DEB927.4010109@lisse.NA>
	<56DF1E87.9090206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D3048B26.45526%alan@clegg.com>

On 3/8/16, 1:48 PM, "Brian E Carpenter"
<internet-history-bounces at postel.org on behalf of
brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:

>On 09/03/2016 00:36, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
>> Google is your friend, and it does help reading German :-)-O
>> 
>> The guy is a designer and felt that there is no real Internet Museum
>> for the general public, so he went and started one.
>> 
>> What's with the possessive tone of this thread, btw?
>
>Well, I think the issue is that an apparently empty web site is
>worse than nothing.
>
>I'm also curious to know what you would put in such a museum that
>would be instructive. Generally, the Internet is its own museum.

Maybe they could host an Internet Archive data center.

AlanC




From huopio at iki.fi  Tue Mar  8 14:01:00 2016
From: huopio at iki.fi (Kauto Huopio)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:01:00 +0200
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <56DF1E87.9090206@gmail.com>
References: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan> <56DEB927.4010109@lisse.NA>
	<56DF1E87.9090206@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAD7tVSSB9HVbfVr-MUMJ_ytsSd9RymxLU14c-sBQ5KSpuinORA@mail.gmail.com>

Couple of ideas..this might sound very nerdy, but there _is_ actually
layers upon
layers of technology and interaction with users/information sources that
just
wait to be documented and presented

-Technical-wise
 -Internet technical structure throughout the timeline
  -core routers, development of transmission technology
  -access technologies (dialup, ISDN, ADSL, cable, various wireless
solutions)
  -importance of fiber at various level
  -how seacable systems work
 -development of data centers
 -hosting - from individual servers to cloud technologies
-how internet spread around the globe..first connections, odd locations for
datacenters,
-history of internet exchanges and how they changed the infrastructure
landscape in various cities/countries

-Core internet tecnologies
 -TCP/IP
 -Address space usage and development
 -IPv4/v6
 -Routing from static routes to present day
 -Services.. telnet, smtp, gopher, http, internet streaming
 -History of the engineering..RFC:s, IETF
 -Spesific exhibit on the birth of WWW and associated technolgies
 -History of browsers
-Internet streaming, from early trials to the Multicast Backbone to present
day

-Important persons on internet development and operations like Joe
Postel..how they
 got involved, their ethos

-Internet of Things history from first connected soda vending machines,
webcams to
 today's tools

-Whole big departiment for Content
 -working examples of various content services from early days to present
day
 -Internet Archives at work..various terminals could have many websites in
year 1999, 200x etc..
 -Important historical events like the Moscow Coup, Iraq war, 9/11, even
present-day like Ukraine
 -Sports in internet - how coverage of Olympics have changed over years,
and
 -History of gaming _in_ Internet - Nethack etc..
 -History of mobile internet..first phones with internet connectivity etc..

-Commercial history of internet - first ISP:s, development of
peering/transit, service providers,
 content providers, powerhouses like Yahoo, Google, eBay
-Rural internet, internet on developing countries

-The speed of internet development - just think how little has happened in
such a very compressed
 time period

Special themes, these could be rotating:

-Internet and crime
-Commerce, banking, stock trade (what is the meaning for distance and
latency..)
-Internet as critical infrastructure

-A glimpse on the future?

Just a couple of ideas..

--Kauto

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 09/03/2016 00:36, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
> > Google is your friend, and it does help reading German :-)-O
> >
> > The guy is a designer and felt that there is no real Internet Museum
> > for the general public, so he went and started one.
> >
> > What's with the possessive tone of this thread, btw?
>
> Well, I think the issue is that an apparently empty web site is
> worse than nothing.
>
> I'm also curious to know what you would put in such a museum that
> would be instructive. Generally, the Internet is its own museum.
>
>     Brian
>
> >
> > el
> >
> >
> > On 2016-03-08 10:28 , John Levine wrote:
> >> In article <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05 at hopcount.ca> you
> write:
> >>> Not http://internetberlin.museum/ or http://berlinmuseuminter.net/
> then. That's confusing.
> >>
> >> If you ever try to register something in .museum, you'll know why
> nobody does.
> >>
> >> At one point, .berlin was giving away names for free, which I expect is
> why
> >> they snagged a name there.  When I look at the web site, I see a spiffy
> web site,
> >> a contact address of a post office box, and nothing more.
> >>
> >> Don't expect a field trip when you're at the Berlin IETF.
> >>
> >> R's,
> >> John
> >> _______
> >> internet-history mailing list
> >> internet-history at postel.org
> >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______
> > internet-history mailing list
> > internet-history at postel.org
> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> >
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>



-- 
Kauto Huopio - kauto at huopio.fi
Hansakallionkuja 12 A 1, 02780 Espoo, Finland
Tel. +358 50 5364717
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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Mar  8 14:35:07 2016
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 11:35:07 +1300
Subject: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
In-Reply-To: <CAD7tVSSB9HVbfVr-MUMJ_ytsSd9RymxLU14c-sBQ5KSpuinORA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160308102836.2763.qmail@ary.lan> <56DEB927.4010109@lisse.NA>
	<56DF1E87.9090206@gmail.com>
	<CAD7tVSSB9HVbfVr-MUMJ_ytsSd9RymxLU14c-sBQ5KSpuinORA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56DF539B.70203@gmail.com>

Good list. But why a physical museum? Sounds more like an on-line book.

Of course there's already a lot out there, e.g.

http://www.zakon.org/robert/internet/timeline/
http://xbbn.weebly.com/bbn-internet-engineering-timeline.html
http://inthistory4u.blogspot.co.nz/2010/08/1969.html

or even
https://web.archive.org/web/20110427170503/http://mike.geiger.ca/temp/iNet-timeline.html

and local ones such as
http://www.nethistory.co.nz/Internet_in_New_Zealand_Timeline/

Regards
   Brian

On 09/03/2016 11:01, Kauto Huopio wrote:
> Couple of ideas..this might sound very nerdy, but there _is_ actually
> layers upon
> layers of technology and interaction with users/information sources that
> just
> wait to be documented and presented
> 
> -Technical-wise
>  -Internet technical structure throughout the timeline
>   -core routers, development of transmission technology
>   -access technologies (dialup, ISDN, ADSL, cable, various wireless
> solutions)
>   -importance of fiber at various level
>   -how seacable systems work
>  -development of data centers
>  -hosting - from individual servers to cloud technologies
> -how internet spread around the globe..first connections, odd locations for
> datacenters,
> -history of internet exchanges and how they changed the infrastructure
> landscape in various cities/countries
> 
> -Core internet tecnologies
>  -TCP/IP
>  -Address space usage and development
>  -IPv4/v6
>  -Routing from static routes to present day
>  -Services.. telnet, smtp, gopher, http, internet streaming
>  -History of the engineering..RFC:s, IETF
>  -Spesific exhibit on the birth of WWW and associated technolgies
>  -History of browsers
> -Internet streaming, from early trials to the Multicast Backbone to present
> day
> 
> -Important persons on internet development and operations like Joe
> Postel..how they
>  got involved, their ethos
> 
> -Internet of Things history from first connected soda vending machines,
> webcams to
>  today's tools
> 
> -Whole big departiment for Content
>  -working examples of various content services from early days to present
> day
>  -Internet Archives at work..various terminals could have many websites in
> year 1999, 200x etc..
>  -Important historical events like the Moscow Coup, Iraq war, 9/11, even
> present-day like Ukraine
>  -Sports in internet - how coverage of Olympics have changed over years,
> and
>  -History of gaming _in_ Internet - Nethack etc..
>  -History of mobile internet..first phones with internet connectivity etc..
> 
> -Commercial history of internet - first ISP:s, development of
> peering/transit, service providers,
>  content providers, powerhouses like Yahoo, Google, eBay
> -Rural internet, internet on developing countries
> 
> -The speed of internet development - just think how little has happened in
> such a very compressed
>  time period
> 
> Special themes, these could be rotating:
> 
> -Internet and crime
> -Commerce, banking, stock trade (what is the meaning for distance and
> latency..)
> -Internet as critical infrastructure
> 
> -A glimpse on the future?
> 
> Just a couple of ideas..
> 
> --Kauto
> 
> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 09/03/2016 00:36, Dr Eberhard W Lisse wrote:
>>> Google is your friend, and it does help reading German :-)-O
>>>
>>> The guy is a designer and felt that there is no real Internet Museum
>>> for the general public, so he went and started one.
>>>
>>> What's with the possessive tone of this thread, btw?
>>
>> Well, I think the issue is that an apparently empty web site is
>> worse than nothing.
>>
>> I'm also curious to know what you would put in such a museum that
>> would be instructive. Generally, the Internet is its own museum.
>>
>>     Brian
>>
>>>
>>> el
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2016-03-08 10:28 , John Levine wrote:
>>>> In article <2C49BB38-B156-4A1D-B18C-9E4C1A1D5B05 at hopcount.ca> you
>> write:
>>>>> Not http://internetberlin.museum/ or http://berlinmuseuminter.net/
>> then. That's confusing.
>>>>
>>>> If you ever try to register something in .museum, you'll know why
>> nobody does.
>>>>
>>>> At one point, .berlin was giving away names for free, which I expect is
>> why
>>>> they snagged a name there.  When I look at the web site, I see a spiffy
>> web site,
>>>> a contact address of a post office box, and nothing more.
>>>>
>>>> Don't expect a field trip when you're at the Berlin IETF.
>>>>
>>>> R's,
>>>> John
>>>> _______
>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 


From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Wed Mar  9 12:21:15 2016
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:21:15 +1100
Subject: [ih] Pre-internet 50 baud connections circa 1967
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>

I received the following interesting message from New Zealand last week - 
can anyone give any more information on this?

"A basic 50 baud Military International network was established in NZDF back 
in 1967 from Main Signals Centre in Wellington NZ sending messages to 
Australia, UK, & USA. I recall addresses started with RPYxxx and were sent 
either on tape, teleprinter or from TopSecret KW encryption valve equipment 
(6L6's)."

(If it's top secret and you cant talk about it until 50 years have elapsed, 
just let me know that you will reply next year!)

Ian Peter 



From bill.n1vux at gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 13:24:46 2016
From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 16:24:46 -0500
Subject: [ih] Pre-internet 50 baud connections circa 1967
In-Reply-To: <59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
References: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
	<59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
Message-ID: <CAAbKA3UjJA0xmeYHza6brpTv6tWHRTYFP+=F0v1px5WFpCuYLw@mail.gmail.com>

Sounds like one of many private teleprinter loops using off-the-shelf
TELEX-compatible gear.

Glad to hear they had some encryption ...


From fergdawgster at mykolab.com  Wed Mar  9 13:36:53 2016
From: fergdawgster at mykolab.com (Paul Ferguson)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 13:36:53 -0800
Subject: [ih] Pre-internet 50 baud connections circa 1967
In-Reply-To: <59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
References: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
	<59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
Message-ID: <56E09775.8020708@mykolab.com>

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA256

On 3/9/2016 12:21 PM, Ian Peter wrote:

> I received the following interesting message from New Zealand last
> week - can anyone give any more information on this?
> 
> "A basic 50 baud Military International network was established in
> NZDF back in 1967 from Main Signals Centre in Wellington NZ sending
> messages to Australia, UK, & USA. I recall addresses started with
> RPYxxx and were sent either on tape, teleprinter or from TopSecret
> KW encryption valve equipment (6L6's)."
> 
> (If it's top secret and you cant talk about it until 50 years have
> elapsed, just let me know that you will reply next year!)
> 
> Ian Peter
> 

I recall working on KW-7s back in the early 1980's while in the U.S.
Army, which were rated for somewhere in the neighborhood of 50wpm of
teletype traffic:

http://www.cryptomuseum.com/crypto/usa/kw7/index.htm

The KW-7 was truly a boat anchor, but a boat anchor that worked for a
long time in the field. It went through several iterations of using
different keying formats, including paper tape, a breadboard permuter
plug, and also a punch card.

The device itself was never classified above 'confidential' -- only
the traffic and the keying material itself were classified above that. :
- -)

- - ferg


- -- 
Paul Ferguson
PGP Public Key ID: 0x54DC85B2
Key fingerprint: 19EC 2945 FEE8 D6C8 58A1 CE53 2896 AC75 54DC 85B2
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2

iF4EAREIAAYFAlbgl3UACgkQKJasdVTchbIW3AD+OllxJPRr2OXXDcbO4eksmAXM
3HbX8Fs0bEPKByRaYjABAJj/0j5lboVi4pHcefL44LGx7CY+yx6nU/tnZZ+3eF0A
=FsEH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


From bill.n1vux at gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 14:04:27 2016
From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:04:27 -0500
Subject: [ih] Pre-internet 50 baud connections circa 1967
In-Reply-To: <56E09775.8020708@mykolab.com>
References: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
	<59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
	<56E09775.8020708@mykolab.com>
Message-ID: <CAAbKA3UAr8tf=kkGWZW01w=Yctw9qeGqRg3fo9Q+6Kajz4_r1g@mail.gmail.com>

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:36 PM, Paul Ferguson <fergdawgster at mykolab.com> wrote:
> The device itself was never classified above 'confidential' -- only
> the traffic and the keying material itself were classified above that. :

Kerchoffs would approve !

-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1vux at gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Mar  9 14:06:59 2016
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:06:59 +1300
Subject: [ih] Pre-internet 50 baud connections circa 1967
In-Reply-To: <59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
References: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
	<59A62F8C59B94AA8BBA5FAFD0D4116A7@Toshiba>
Message-ID: <56E09E83.5090601@gmail.com>

I have no idea about that. However, the UKUSA papers declassified by
the NSA and GCHQ a few years ago did indicate that NZ sigint was involved
in the first round of sigint networking even before WW II ended.

There was no link planned from NZ then, but NZ personnel were on site at
the AU/NZ sigint centre near Melbourne, Australia, which was linked via
Hawaii to the DC area by June 1944.

There's a memo whose file name is brusa_7jan44.pdf which describes
the future link. Some juicy extracts:

"(1) A comprehensive U.S.-British circuit, to be called the "BRUSA" circuit,
to be established as early as practicable between Washington, Pearl Harbor,
Melbourne, Colombo and G.C.C.S., incorporating U.S. Naval and British circuits
at present used for the dissemination of R.I. material."
...
"(7) All traffic to be in CCM. The number of machines required at British
stations and the provision of these machines, and of appropriate drums,
to be in accordance with Appendix III."

The memo was written by F.H. Hinsley for GCCS (the old name of GCHQ).
For CCM and its drums: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_Cipher_Machine
As far as GCCS was concerned, Melbourne and Colombo were British in 1944.
(The GCCS link from Bletchley Park to Washington went via Oshawa, Ontario,
which the British also viewed as British.)

Sources:
https://www.nsa.gov/public_info/declass/ukusa.shtml
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukusa/

Regards
   Brian


On 10/03/2016 09:21, Ian Peter wrote:
> I received the following interesting message from New Zealand last week - 
> can anyone give any more information on this?
> 
> "A basic 50 baud Military International network was established in NZDF back 
> in 1967 from Main Signals Centre in Wellington NZ sending messages to 
> Australia, UK, & USA. I recall addresses started with RPYxxx and were sent 
> either on tape, teleprinter or from TopSecret KW encryption valve equipment 
> (6L6's)."
> 
> (If it's top secret and you cant talk about it until 50 years have elapsed, 
> just let me know that you will reply next year!)
> 
> Ian Peter 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 


From braden at isi.edu  Wed Mar  9 19:58:44 2016
From: braden at isi.edu (Bob Braden)
Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:58:44 -0800
Subject: [ih] Saving our history
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.1.1457553601.23690.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <56E0F0F4.4010906@isi.edu>


On 3/9/2016 12:00 PM, internet-history-request at postel.org wrote:
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:01:00 +0200
> From: Kauto Huopio <huopio at iki.fi>
> Subject: Re: [ih] Berlin Internet Museum
> To: internet-history at postel.org
> Message-ID:
> 	<CAD7tVSSB9HVbfVr-MUMJ_ytsSd9RymxLU14c-sBQ5KSpuinORA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Couple of ideas..this might sound very nerdy, but there _is_ actually
> layers upon
> layers of technology and interaction with users/information sources that
> just
> wait to be documented and presented
>
> ...
>
> -Core internet tecnologies
>   -TCP/IP
>   -Address space usage and development
>   -IPv4/v6
>   -Routing from static routes to present day
>   -Services.. telnet, smtp, gopher, http, internet streaming
>   -History of the engineering..RFC:s, IETF
>   -Spesific exhibit on the birth of WWW and associated technolgies
>   -History of browsers
> -Internet streaming, from early trials to the Multicast Backbone to present
> day

FWIW, I have been working on a document that includes (my personal view 
of) some of
these core technologies.
>
> -Important persons on internet development and operations like Joe
> Postel..how they
>   got involved, their ethos

I cannot claim to be an "important person ... like Jon Postel",  but my 
document tries
to portray the ethos of the Internet research community, as  I observed it.

Bob Braden
USC Information Sciences Institute



From jklensin at gmail.com  Mon Mar 14 20:14:00 2016
From: jklensin at gmail.com (John Klensin)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 23:14:00 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 1:35 PM, Brian E Carpenter
<brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/01/2016 04:52, John Day wrote:
>> Agree with Noel, it was widely used within the ARPANET . . . almost immediately as I remember.
>
> Not to mention the uucp world, and email over rscs became very big between IBM mainframes
> in academia. So the meme spread well before there was a real Internet.
>
>     Brian
>
>>
>> You have to wonder about a historian who can?t interpret the historical record in context.

Sorry to have just noticed this thread...

The article is fairly badly damaged in other ways.  For example, it
suggests that people tried "!" and "%" instead of the "@", implying
that both were used in Internet mail.  Of course, "!" was used in uucp
routing "bang paths" (not on the Internet except as the
pseudo-local-part associated with a gateway) and, at least AFAIK, "%"
was used in local-part routing, always in conjunction with "@".  Once
it took off, "@" was fairly universally used: the exceptions were
Multics (and possibly a few other systems) where the symbol turned out
to be used as a line-kill character and on some systems where "@" was
hard or impossible to type (e.g., early version of ISO 646 defined
x'45', which is "@" in ASCII as a national-use character position.
On those systems, "@" was spelled "at" or "-at", oddly anticipating
some of today's attempts to keep address harvesting mechanism from
spotting email addresses.

Beyond that, depending on how "real Internet" is defined, it was
fairly well deployed before BITNET/NETNORTH/EARN really got going.

The other strangeness of the discussion is that, if my memory is
correct, inter-machine email predates ARPANET/Internet email.  The
example I'm thinking of wasn't very fast because the transport
mechanism involved mag tape over sneakernet, but it was inter-machine,
demonstrating that one needs to be very careful about what is being
claimed.  What I don't remember was whether there was a way to
designate the other machine or whether that was just deduced from
accounting information.  Tom Van Vleck would presumably remember if
anyone thinks it is important.

    --john



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Mon Mar 14 21:33:03 2016
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:33:03 -0700
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net>


On 3/14/2016 8:14 PM, John Klensin wrote:
> The article is fairly badly damaged in other ways.  For example, it
> suggests that people tried "!" and "%" instead of the "@", implying
> that both were used in Internet mail.  Of course, "!" was used in uucp
> routing "bang paths" (not on the Internet except as the
> pseudo-local-part associated with a gateway) and, at least AFAIK, "%"
> was used in local-part routing, always in conjunction with "@".

I reacted to that bit of the article, too, but decided that it suffered 
more from indulging in bit too much drama than in outright error.

Arguably, uucp source routing was initially an alternative to arpanet 
addressing.  Hence, ! was an 'alternative'.

The use of % you cite, as coupled with @, was indeed what I set up for 
CSNet and was always fully coupled with Arpanet/Internet mail.

However I seem to recall % also being used for source-routing on Bitnet, 
which was originally completely independent of uucp mail or arpanet mail.

Convergence on @ and domain names, with a common addressing scheme, was 
an explicit effort among the disparate email communities, in the 
mid-1980s.  I'm told this included heated debate...


> Once
> it took off, "@" was fairly universally used: the exceptions were
> Multics (and possibly a few other systems) where the symbol turned out
> to be used as a line-kill character and on some systems where "@" was
> hard or impossible to type (e.g., early version of ISO 646 defined

That's why RFC733 accepted " at " as an alternative to @.


> Beyond that, depending on how "real Internet" is defined, it was
> fairly well deployed before BITNET/NETNORTH/EARN really got going.

For a mass-market consideration of "Internet", perhaps.  For this 
discussion group, I'd say no.

Here, Arpanet was before them, but Internet was not yet well deployed 
before the others were well underway.  But perhaps only be one or a few 
years.


> The other strangeness of the discussion is that, if my memory is
> correct, inter-machine email predates ARPANET/Internet email.  The
> example I'm thinking of wasn't very fast because the transport
> mechanism involved mag tape over sneakernet, but it was inter-machine,
> demonstrating that one needs to be very careful about what is being
> claimed.  What I don't remember was whether there was a way to
> designate the other machine or whether that was just deduced from
> accounting information.  Tom Van Vleck would presumably remember if
> anyone thinks it is important.

I have never seen anyone previously claim that sneakernet-based file 
exchanges qualified as inter-machine email, nor that there was an 
addressing scheme to support referencing such an exchange.

These are the two innovations specifically credited to Tomlinson.  And 
always have been, that I have ever seen.

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From ocl at gih.com  Tue Mar 15 01:54:45 2016
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 09:54:45 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>



On 15/03/2016 05:33, Dave Crocker wrote:
> However I seem to recall % also being used for source-routing on Bitnet, 
> which was originally completely independent of uucp mail or arpanet mail.

I'm surprised nobody's spoken of VAX/VMS Mail where the first field was
that of the mailer used.
In most systems is was one of MX%, IN%, or SMTP%.
For example: MX%"John.Doe at example.com"

But in the UK (and I believe in some cases outside the UK too), we ended
up using Coloured Book Software (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloured_Book_protocols ) which, in
addition to not recognising a mix of %, ", @ also used NRS notation (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET_NRS ), which required gateways to

Email addressing was therefore a bit more sporty:
To: John.Doe at example.ac.uk-> CBS%uk.ac.example::John.Doe
To: John.Doe%node2 at example.ac.uk-> CBS%uk.ac.example::node2::John.Doe
Of course, JANET was an acaemic network so if needing to email
example.com, you'd need to route it specifically via NSS (or later,
nsfnet-relay) or Bitnet node UKACRL:
Tp: John.Doe%example.com at uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss ->
CBS%uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss::com.example::John.Doe or
CBS%uk.ac.earn-relay::com.example:John.Doe
To: ...sun!mcvax!ukc!example!John.Doe  ->
CBS%uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss::com.sun::"mcvax!ukc!example!John.Doe"
(worth noting that the UUCP gateway at UKC was only allowing email from
Janet if your establishment had a billing agreement with them. If not,
you needed to route via uunet/sun in the US.

Most challenging was sending to X.400 emails via uk.ac.ean-relay -- and
often the return address parser got itself in a real mess. But you can
see that seldom was @ used. It all went out the window in the early 90s.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html





From johnl at iecc.com  Tue Mar 15 06:02:07 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 15 Mar 2016 13:02:07 -0000
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>

>that both were used in Internet mail.  Of course, "!" was used in uucp
>routing "bang paths" (not on the Internet except as the
>pseudo-local-part associated with a gateway)

I'm reasonably sure I know people who did uucp over TCP/IP, but for
most of us, the faster we could get rid of our bang paths the better.

For several years there was a project that maintained a distributed
uucp connection database so if you sent mail to decvax!bob or
bob at decvax.uucp, your MTA could rewrite it to
moe!larry!curly!decvax!bob.

R's,
John


From craig at aland.bbn.com  Tue Mar 15 06:24:42 2016
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 09:24:42 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>

"John Levine" writes:
> >that both were used in Internet mail.  Of course, "!" was used in uucp
> >routing "bang paths" (not on the Internet except as the
> >pseudo-local-part associated with a gateway)
> 
> I'm reasonably sure I know people who did uucp over TCP/IP, but for
> most of us, the faster we could get rid of our bang paths the better.
> 
> For several years there was a project that maintained a distributed
> uucp connection database so if you sent mail to decvax!bob or
> bob at decvax.uucp, your MTA could rewrite it to
> moe!larry!curly!decvax!bob.

Yes. The program was called Pathalias and was created by Honeyman and
Bellovin.  It ran over a map of the UUCP connectivity and if memory
serves right, the administration of the map was eventually done by
Mark Horton at Berkeley.

As I recall, Pathalias was smart about the capacity of different
connections and would seek to route you along the uucp high powered
nodes (what we'd now call a backbone).  So the typical path was
more likely ihnp4!decvax!bob :-)

Craig


From jabley at hopcount.ca  Tue Mar 15 06:29:26 2016
From: jabley at hopcount.ca (Joe Abley)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 09:29:26 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>
References: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
	<20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>
Message-ID: <BCBED583-2E76-46FD-9EEE-6E66796940ED@hopcount.ca>


On 15 Mar 2016, at 09:24, Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com> wrote:

> As I recall, Pathalias was smart about the capacity of different
> connections and would seek to route you along the uucp high powered
> nodes (what we'd now call a backbone).  So the typical path was
> more likely ihnp4!decvax!bob :-)

The corresponding nexus in the UK was ukc as I recall (University of Kent at Canterbury).


Joe

...!ukc!bt-axion!tharr!joe
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From johnl at iecc.com  Tue Mar 15 07:07:49 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine)
Date: 15 Mar 2016 10:07:49 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>
References: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
	<20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603151003580.47203@ary.lan>

> As I recall, Pathalias was smart about the capacity of different
> connections and would seek to route you along the uucp high powered
> nodes (what we'd now call a backbone).  So the typical path was
> more likely ihnp4!decvax!bob :-)

My recollection was that it just tried to minimize the number of hops, but 
since I was on a leaf node close to one of the fast nodes, I just might 
not have noticed.

See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-barber-uucp-project-conclusion-05


From craig at aland.bbn.com  Tue Mar 15 07:33:46 2016
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:33:46 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603151003580.47203@ary.lan>
References: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
	<20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603151003580.47203@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <20160315143346.AAD1042055E@aland.bbn.com>

"John R. Levine" writes:
> > As I recall, Pathalias was smart about the capacity of different
> > connections and would seek to route you along the uucp high powered
> > nodes (what we'd now call a backbone).  So the typical path was
> > more likely ihnp4!decvax!bob :-)
> 
> My recollection was that it just tried to minimize the number of hops, but 
> since I was on a leaf node close to one of the fast nodes, I just might 
> not have noticed.

You are probably right.  Given that the backbone nodes were also highly
connected, in attempts to keep the graph diameter small, the result of
min hops vs. fast hops was likely similar and I misremembered which
metric was used.

Thanks!

Craig


From vint at google.com  Tue Mar 15 07:35:12 2016
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:35:12 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>

there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain names from
uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk
Kirstein's people tore their hair for a while on that and I remember some
fairly hot debates about this until Internet mail formats (as in RFC 722,
822 etc) were agreed as standard.

v


On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 4:54 AM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com>
wrote:

>
>
> On 15/03/2016 05:33, Dave Crocker wrote:
> > However I seem to recall % also being used for source-routing on Bitnet,
> > which was originally completely independent of uucp mail or arpanet mail.
>
> I'm surprised nobody's spoken of VAX/VMS Mail where the first field was
> that of the mailer used.
> In most systems is was one of MX%, IN%, or SMTP%.
> For example: MX%"John.Doe at example.com"
>
> But in the UK (and I believe in some cases outside the UK too), we ended
> up using Coloured Book Software (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coloured_Book_protocols ) which, in
> addition to not recognising a mix of %, ", @ also used NRS notation (
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JANET_NRS ), which required gateways to
>
> Email addressing was therefore a bit more sporty:
> To: John.Doe at example.ac.uk-> CBS%uk.ac.example::John.Doe
> To: John.Doe%node2 at example.ac.uk-> CBS%uk.ac.example::node2::John.Doe
> Of course, JANET was an acaemic network so if needing to email
> example.com, you'd need to route it specifically via NSS (or later,
> nsfnet-relay) or Bitnet node UKACRL:
> Tp: John.Doe%example.com at uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss ->
> CBS%uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss::com.example::John.Doe or
> CBS%uk.ac.earn-relay::com.example:John.Doe
> To: ...sun!mcvax!ukc!example!John.Doe  ->
> CBS%uk.ac.ucl.cs.nss::com.sun::"mcvax!ukc!example!John.Doe"
> (worth noting that the UUCP gateway at UKC was only allowing email from
> Janet if your establishment had a billing agreement with them. If not,
> you needed to route via uunet/sun in the US.
>
> Most challenging was sending to X.400 emails via uk.ac.ean-relay -- and
> often the return address parser got itself in a real mess. But you can
> see that seldom was @ used. It all went out the window in the early 90s.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> --
> Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
> http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
>
>
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>



-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Tue Mar 15 07:58:01 2016
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:58:01 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603151003580.47203@ary.lan>
References: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
	<20160315132442.7C00E42055E@aland.bbn.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603151003580.47203@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <1A5C7BDE-F363-426C-B2A8-7D60CC2BCE91@fantasyfarm.com>

O
I haven't fully followed the thread but wasn't it rick Adams at the army ballistics
site  (which was a major usenet node -- don't remember the site name any more -
something with 'brl' in it) who got formal/official permission to route Usenet mail
between the coasts Using the arpanet?

/bernie\
-- 
Bernie Cosell
bernie at fantasyfarm.com


From sob at harvard.edu  Tue Mar 15 08:14:26 2016
From: sob at harvard.edu (Bradner, Scott)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:14:26 +0000
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160315130207.18679.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <67EB41AC-B6A9-4CD3-980D-C7EDA8783BD3@harvard.edu>

that was the uucp mapping project - originally to provide data for pathalias

see attached

Scott

On Mar 15, 2016, at 9:02 AM, John Levine <johnl at iecc.com<mailto:johnl at iecc.com>> wrote:

that both were used in Internet mail.  Of course, "!" was used in uucp
routing "bang paths" (not on the Internet except as the
pseudo-local-part associated with a gateway)

I'm reasonably sure I know people who did uucp over TCP/IP, but for
most of us, the faster we could get rid of our bang paths the better.

For several years there was a project that maintained a distributed
uucp connection database so if you sent mail to decvax!bob or
bob at decvax.uucp<mailto:bob at decvax.uucp>, your MTA could rewrite it to
moe!larry!curly!decvax!bob.

R's,
John
_______
internet-history mailing list
internet-history at postel.org<mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
Contact list-owner at postel.org<mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.



>From sob at harvisr.harvard.edu<mailto:sob at harvisr.harvard.edu> Mon Nov 27 21:28:17 1989
Date: Mon, 27 Nov 89 20:36:11 EST
From: Scott Bradner <sob at harvisr.harvard.edu<mailto:sob at harvisr.harvard.edu>>
To: rsalz at BBN.COM<mailto:rsalz at bbn.com>
Subject: Re: Questions about the start of the mapping projecdt

Well,
The original data was collected by Steve Bellovin but he sort
of gave up at some point. I think that Peter Honeyman did some collecting
back then also.

At that time I was running wjh12 as a internet/uucp/bitnet gateway.
I needed some better data. So I:
1/ had a programmer here rig up a scan-the-news-headers program
to get an operating base
2/ sent out:
a) a posting to some newsgroup asking for the info
b) letters to usenet & root at all nodes that I
had found by scanning headers
c) then to all nodes found in the new data

When I started the process I got calls from Rob Kolstad & Mark Horton
Rob offered to help in the data gathering, we agreed to have
him start at one end of the alphebet & me at the other.

Mark was about to do the same thing, Rob & I agreed to pass on
the data to Mark as we got it done.

After the 1st full pass, Rob & I passed all operations over to Mark & the
mapping project.

Scott
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From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Tue Mar 15 08:20:57 2016
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 08:20:57 -0700
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E82859.1060205@dcrocker.net>


On 3/15/2016 7:35 AM, Vint Cerf wrote:
> there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain names from
> uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk <http://cs.ucl.ac.uk>
> Kirstein's people tore their hair for a while on that and I remember
> some fairly hot debates about this until Internet mail formats (as in
> RFC 722, 822 etc) were agreed as standard.


In those days, this topic always included a debate which I viewed as 
between source-routing, versus canonical, global addressing (which hides 
the routing.)  Standardized- vs. variable-addressing was one of the 
derivative points.  Left-ending vs. right-endian was one of the points 
of variability.

The UK folks used MMDF, which made a point of converting all incoming 
mail to a canonical intrnal addressing model, and then reformulated it 
according to the needs of the outbound channel.  By contrast, I believe 
Sendmail did ad hoc in/out address translation, sustaining the 
combinatorial problems inherent in the approach.

The UK folks had a left-endian addressing scheme, while MMDF internally 
used a right-endian model.  The UK folks modified MMDF to support /both/ 
models.

Expedience vs. purity is always such a painful choice in system design...

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From julf at julf.com  Tue Mar 15 08:26:28 2016
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:26:28 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>

> there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain
> names from uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk

Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
them and our UK node at UKC...

     Julf  (used to be mcvax!penet!julf)




From eric.gade at gmail.com  Tue Mar 15 08:57:06 2016
From: eric.gade at gmail.com (Eric Gade)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 11:57:06 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
Message-ID: <CA+CiqoVBc_LkNAW6CnpYH_ixWcu6gtsWkX6MLXbQpfEFmdX3Dw@mail.gmail.com>

My take on the NRS vs DNS naming controversy -- which as you all said
really heated around in 1990 when the application for *.cs* came into the
NIC -- stemmed in part from the fact that the JNT/JANET people in the UK
were staunchly committed to OSI and refused to make any sweeping changes to
their naming and addressing system until a viable x.400 product was in
place. In other words, they were holding out for what they thought would be
the world standard. This seemed to piss a lot of people off. There are some
fiery and frankly hilarious emails from that period, especially on
Namedroppers.

It's also worth noting that the JNT had some financial troubles around that
time, and in previous years had even threatened to sue the administrators
of the at Salford for abruptly stopping development of the NRS.

I'm wondering, Johan, when exactly you started to see these mail routing
problems (before 1990, for sure, but for how long after)? I believe that in
1990 there were 10 UUCP sites in Czechoslovakia.

On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 11:26 AM, Johan Helsingius <julf at julf.com> wrote:

> > there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain
> > names from uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk
>
> Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
> short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
> them and our UK node at UKC...
>
>      Julf  (used to be mcvax!penet!julf)
>
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>



-- 
Eric
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From gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk  Tue Mar 15 09:00:38 2016
From: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk (George Ross)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:00:38 +0000
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:26:28 +0100."
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
Message-ID: <201603151600.u2FG0cRa010093@farg.inf.ed.ac.uk>

> Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
> short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
> them and our UK node at UKC...

Some of us even renamed to avoid potential ccTLD ambiguities: uk.ac.ed.cs
became uk.ac.ed.dcs, for example.  Fortunately the impact was less back
then than it would be now.
--
George D M Ross MSc PhD CEng MBCS CITP, University of Edinburgh,
School of Informatics, 10 Crichton Street, Edinburgh, Scotland, EH8 9AB
Mail: gdmr at inf.ed.ac.uk   Voice: 0131 650 5147   Fax: 0131 650 6899
PGP: 1024D/AD758CC5  B91E D430 1E0D 5883 EF6A  426C B676 5C2B AD75 8CC5

The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in
Scotland, with registration number SC005336.


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From julf at julf.com  Tue Mar 15 09:19:03 2016
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:19:03 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CA+CiqoVBc_LkNAW6CnpYH_ixWcu6gtsWkX6MLXbQpfEFmdX3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
	<CA+CiqoVBc_LkNAW6CnpYH_ixWcu6gtsWkX6MLXbQpfEFmdX3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56E835F7.7070104@julf.com>

On 15-03-16 16:57, Eric Gade wrote:

> My take on the NRS vs DNS naming controversy -- which as you
> all said really heated around in 1990 when the application for /.cs
>/ came into the NIC -- stemmed in part from the fact that the
> JNT/JANET people in the UK were staunchly committed to OSI
> and refused to make any sweeping changes to their naming and
> addressing system until a viable x.400 product was in place.

Whereas we at EUnet were a bit more pragmatic. I am assured
Daniel Karrenberg still has a copy of the "EUnet X.400 migration
plan" that we had, because we had to (due to some EC funding).
Once it was written, nobody ever touched it again. :)

> I'm wondering, Johan, when exactly you started to see these mail
> routing problems (before 1990, for sure, but for how long after)?
> I believe that in 1990 there were 10 UUCP sites in Czechoslovakia.

Really hard to remember the exact years at this point - and too
many documents from that time only resided on hard disks
that have now moved to the great hard disk graveyard. :(

I did find a note from April 1992 that states:
"A 19.2 kbit/s IP link between Prague and Linz (Austria) is
operational today. The line is multiplexed and carries EARN and
general IP services. An upgrade till 64 kbit/s is foreseen for June
1992. A second link, 9.6 kbit/s IP between Bratislava and Vienna
(Austria), is shared between EUnet traffic and general IP traffic.
Both links connect into the upcoming academic backbone network,
FESnet."

i still work with one of the early EUnet Czechoslovakia guys,
so I will ask next time I see him.

    Julf


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From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Mar 15 11:05:52 2016
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:05:52 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
Message-ID: <201603151805.u2FI5qn5063153@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Johan Helsingius writes:

 > > there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain
 > > names from uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk
 > 
 > Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
 > short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
 > them and our UK node at UKC...
 > 

Lots of people had that. I remember cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbam's
department) as lot's of computer science departments did got a lot
of mail when the .cs tld got establised due to janet <-> uucp
gateway's. Having cs as search path created problems as well.

We actually ran one of the bigger path alias databases. We routed
quite some mail via mcvax.

	 jaap (...!mcvax!jaap)


From jaap at NLnetLabs.nl  Tue Mar 15 11:11:33 2016
From: jaap at NLnetLabs.nl (Jaap Akkerhuis)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:11:33 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <CA+CiqoVBc_LkNAW6CnpYH_ixWcu6gtsWkX6MLXbQpfEFmdX3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
	<CA+CiqoVBc_LkNAW6CnpYH_ixWcu6gtsWkX6MLXbQpfEFmdX3Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <201603151811.u2FIBXwb065732@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>

 Eric Gade writes:

 > I'm wondering, Johan, when exactly you started to see these mail routing
 > problems (before 1990, for sure, but for how long after)? I believe that in
 > 1990 there were 10 UUCP sites in Czechoslovakia.

If I (mcvax!jaap) remember correctly, it started when cs became
list in the root zone. Don't know when that was but end 80's is my
bet.

	jaap


From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Mar 15 11:58:48 2016
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 07:58:48 +1300
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
Message-ID: <56E85B68.80405@gmail.com>

On 16/03/2016 04:26, Johan Helsingius wrote:
>> there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain
>> names from uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk
> 
> Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
> short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
> them and our UK node at UKC...

Around the same time at CERN, we were dealing with Oracle UK, whose
address was uk.oracle.com, but some mail gateway (probably our own)
insisted on sending the mesages to com.oracle.uk. We had so many
JANET users on site that the heuristic starting "if the first address
field is 'uk', reverse the domain name" was usually correct.

   Brian


From el at lisse.NA  Tue Mar 15 13:14:33 2016
From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard W Lisse)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 21:14:33 +0100
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <201603151805.u2FI5qn5063153@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
	<201603151805.u2FI5qn5063153@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
Message-ID: <56E86D29.7050107@lisse.NA>

For all it is worth I got a few emails for .NZ in the beginning and
as I had a German keyboard (Z and Y swapped) I it took quite some
time to figure that out.

Then I got some stuff for the Radio Amateurs' packet radio North
America routing.

The one I liked the most was stuff for some Naval station at Great
Lakes, somehow VY.MIL got cut off.  I eventually got hold of the
Admiral concerned and it took one single email from him to have it
fixed :-)-O

el

On 2016-03-15 19:05 , Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
>  Johan Helsingius writes:
> 
>  > > there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain
>  > > names from uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk
>  > 
>  > Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
>  > short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
>  > them and our UK node at UKC...
>  > 
> 
> Lots of people had that. I remember cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbam's
> department) as lot's of computer science departments did got a lot
> of mail when the .cs tld got establised due to janet <-> uucp
> gateway's. Having cs as search path created problems as well.
> 
> We actually ran one of the bigger path alias databases. We routed
> quite some mail via mcvax.
> 
> 	 jaap (...!mcvax!jaap)

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From jeanjour at comcast.net  Tue Mar 15 13:58:42 2016
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:58:42 -0400
Subject: [ih] The Atlantic on Email
In-Reply-To: <56E86D29.7050107@lisse.NA>
References: <20160111153402.52EC018C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
	<C637D6D3-2AD3-41B7-8806-75A8E8E30DCE@comcast.net>
	<5693F5E5.1050005@gmail.com>
	<CAC-QkAALvWwB13gj2b9HPabLeRUe893R5s0=S_2KK2v7k9LUVw@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E7907F.90706@dcrocker.net> <56E7CDD5.3050705@gih.com>
	<CAHxHggfM+qtMhT-scu11iE2Gmp4nGHAOzmSeYqujy1rubX7e-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<56E829A4.4040509@julf.com>
	<201603151805.u2FI5qn5063153@bela.nlnetlabs.nl>
	<56E86D29.7050107@lisse.NA>
Message-ID: <4BA0A19D-879D-431C-AF8D-C0EBA714B83E@comcast.net>

Totally unrelated, but Richard Tenny should tell his fax relay story. It is similar.

John
> On Mar 15, 2016, at 16:14, Dr Eberhard W Lisse <el at lisse.NA> wrote:
> 
> For all it is worth I got a few emails for .NZ in the beginning and
> as I had a German keyboard (Z and Y swapped) I it took quite some
> time to figure that out.
> 
> Then I got some stuff for the Radio Amateurs' packet radio North
> America routing.
> 
> The one I liked the most was stuff for some Naval station at Great
> Lakes, somehow VY.MIL got cut off.  I eventually got hold of the
> Admiral concerned and it took one single email from him to have it
> fixed :-)-O
> 
> el
> 
> On 2016-03-15 19:05 , Jaap Akkerhuis wrote:
>> Johan Helsingius writes:
>> 
>>>> there was also the little problem of inverting the UK domain
>>>> names from uk.ac.ucl.cs to cs.ucl.ac.uk
>>> 
>>> Yes, we at EUnet actually had a node in Czechoslovakia, using the
>>> short-lived .cs ccTLD. We had some mail routing issues between
>>> them and our UK node at UKC...
>>> 
>> 
>> Lots of people had that. I remember cs.vu.nl (Andy Tanenbam's
>> department) as lot's of computer science departments did got a lot
>> of mail when the .cs tld got establised due to janet <-> uucp
>> gateway's. Having cs as search path created problems as well.
>> 
>> We actually ran one of the bigger path alias databases. We routed
>> quite some mail via mcvax.
>> 
>> 	 jaap (...!mcvax!jaap)
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.




From faber at lunabase.org  Tue Mar 15 22:11:25 2016
From: faber at lunabase.org (Ted Faber)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:11:25 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
Message-ID: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org>


I'm just going to mention that these guys are still out there:
https://www.fidonet.org/

-- 
http://www.lunabase.org/~faber
http://www.lunabase.org/~faber/blog

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From randy at psg.com  Tue Mar 15 22:19:00 2016
From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:19:00 +0900
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org>
Message-ID: <m2k2l3ov97.wl%randy@psg.com>

> I'm just going to mention that these guys are still out there:
> https://www.fidonet.org/

especially in russia

FidoNet: technology, tools, and history, Communications of the ACM
Volume 36 Issue 8, August 1993.
http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=163383&coll=portal&dl=GUIDE&CFID=48775420&CFTOKEN=85794362


From faber at lunabase.org  Tue Mar 15 22:20:08 2016
From: faber at lunabase.org (Ted Faber)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:20:08 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <m2k2l3ov97.wl%randy@psg.com>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org> <m2k2l3ov97.wl%randy@psg.com>
Message-ID: <56E8ED08.4050009@lunabase.org>

On 03/15/2016 10:19 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
>> I'm just going to mention that these guys are still out there:
>> https://www.fidonet.org/
> 
> especially in russia
> 
> FidoNet: technology, tools, and history, Communications of the ACM
> Volume 36 Issue 8, August 1993.
> http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=163383&coll=portal&dl=GUIDE&CFID=48775420&CFTOKEN=85794362
> 

Africa, too, as I recall.  Lots of things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio.

-- 
http://www.lunabase.org/~faber
http://www.lunabase.org/~faber/blog

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From randy at psg.com  Tue Mar 15 22:24:21 2016
From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:24:21 +0900
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56E8ED08.4050009@lunabase.org>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org> <m2k2l3ov97.wl%randy@psg.com>
	<56E8ED08.4050009@lunabase.org>
Message-ID: <m2io0nov0a.wl%randy@psg.com>

>>> I'm just going to mention that these guys are still out there:
>>> https://www.fidonet.org/
> Africa, too, as I recall.

not much any more

http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016


From faber at lunabase.org  Tue Mar 15 22:27:17 2016
From: faber at lunabase.org (Ted Faber)
Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 22:27:17 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <m2io0nov0a.wl%randy@psg.com>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org> <m2k2l3ov97.wl%randy@psg.com>
	<56E8ED08.4050009@lunabase.org> <m2io0nov0a.wl%randy@psg.com>
Message-ID: <56E8EEB5.3060103@lunabase.org>

On 03/15/2016 10:24 PM, Randy Bush wrote:
>>>> I'm just going to mention that these guys are still out there:
>>>> https://www.fidonet.org/
>> Africa, too, as I recall.
> 
> not much any more
> 
> http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016
> 
Ah.  I didn't realize you were so connected with them.  Very good!

-- 
http://www.lunabase.org/~faber
http://www.lunabase.org/~faber/blog

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From randy at psg.com  Tue Mar 15 22:43:42 2016
From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:43:42 +0900
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56E8EEB5.3060103@lunabase.org>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org> <m2k2l3ov97.wl%randy@psg.com>
	<56E8ED08.4050009@lunabase.org> <m2io0nov0a.wl%randy@psg.com>
	<56E8EEB5.3060103@lunabase.org>
Message-ID: <m2h9g7ou41.wl%randy@psg.com>

>> http://ftsc.org/docs/fts-0001.016
> Ah.  I didn't realize you were so connected with them.  Very good!

i most definitely had no part in the design, only shanghaied into
writing the standard.  the design and first implementation were by
tom jennings, who is still a friend.

i would love to find a copy the original document, fsc0001 from the
'80s.

randy


From randy at psg.com  Tue Mar 15 22:59:35 2016
From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:59:35 +0900
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org>
Message-ID: <m2fuvrotdk.wl%randy@psg.com>

btw, i still run uucp links, both over tcp and over pots.

randy


From julf at julf.com  Wed Mar 16 09:50:34 2016
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:50:34 +0100
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <m2fuvrotdk.wl%randy@psg.com>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org> <m2fuvrotdk.wl%randy@psg.com>
Message-ID: <56E98EDA.5020103@julf.com>

On 16-03-16 06:59, Randy Bush wrote:
> btw, i still run uucp links, both over tcp and over pots.

My UUCP horror story is of running the Helsinki-Amsterdam (penet-mcvax)
backbone connection on UUCP over X.25, on an Zilog machine, with their
version of UNIX SIII. Unfortunately they, just like everybody else, noticed
the discrepancy between the TTY driver implementation and documentation,
but unlike everybody else, they fixed the code, not the documentation.

The Zilog TTY driver, in raw mode, would not wait for a certain number of
bytes and a certain time before returning, but would return after a certain
number of bytes *or* a timeout. So if mcvax was slow, the tty driver would
return with 0 bytes (= line dropped), and that transfer of a news or emal
batch would have to re-start - while paying for traffic per data packet.
Bills
got pretty expensive pretty fast.

     Julf



From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Mar 16 14:13:26 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 14:13:26 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <m2fuvrotdk.wl%randy@psg.com>
References: <56E8EAFD.5020103@lunabase.org> <m2fuvrotdk.wl%randy@psg.com>
Message-ID: <EB26A1DA-3A59-4063-B2D2-1454A11CD107@orthanc.ca>


> On Mar 15, 2016, at 10:59 PM, Randy Bush <randy at psg.com> wrote:
> 
> btw, i still run uucp links, both over tcp and over pots.

TLS-wrapped UUCP over TCP is still the best way to circumvent hotel's, internet cafe's, and ? these days ? your own ISP's attempts to block/MITM/read your email.

--lyndon




From johnl at iecc.com  Wed Mar 16 15:31:03 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 16 Mar 2016 22:31:03 -0000
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <EB26A1DA-3A59-4063-B2D2-1454A11CD107@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <EB26A1DA-3A59-4063-B2D2-1454A11CD107 at orthanc.ca> you write:
>
>> On Mar 15, 2016, at 10:59 PM, Randy Bush <randy at psg.com> wrote:
>> 
>> btw, i still run uucp links, both over tcp and over pots.
>
>TLS-wrapped UUCP over TCP is still the best way to circumvent hotel's, internet cafe's, and ? these days ? your
>own ISP's attempts to block/MITM/read your email.

Seems a bit crufty.  I've been tunneling imap and submit through ssh
on port 443 for years.  Works great.

R's,
John

PS: If anyone wants a uucp-friendly Telebit Trailblazer modem card
with the popular mod of a buffered chip in place of the standard
unbuffered one, just ask.  You'll have to find a computer old enough
to have an ISA slot for it.


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Mar 16 15:50:03 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 15:50:03 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>


> On Mar 16, 2016, at 3:31 PM, John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
> 
> Seems a bit crufty.  I've been tunneling imap and submit through ssh
> on port 443 for years.  Works great.

No doubt. But I've been using suucp for well(!) over a decade. Why change what works?

--lyndon


From johnl at iecc.com  Wed Mar 16 16:46:08 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine)
Date: 16 Mar 2016 19:46:08 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>

>> Seems a bit crufty.  I've been tunneling imap and submit through ssh
>> on port 443 for years.  Works great.
>
> No doubt. But I've been using suucp for well(!) over a decade. Why change what works?

Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!  I set up my port 
443 ssh server in January 2005 when I was doing a project at a lawyer's 
office that blocked port 22.  My mailbox is on my server, so UUCP-ing it 
back and forth to another mailbox on my laptop and trying to keep them in 
sync wouldn't be fun.

I certainly used UUCP for a long time -- back in the 1980s I was using it 
for mail and news, calling a friendly system near my home in Cambridge MA. 
We spent one summer at our beach house at the Jersey Shore. Carefully 
scrutinizing the uucp maps and the list of local exchanges in the phone 
book, I discovered that there was a usenet node at the FAA test center in 
Pomona NJ which due to a quirk of telegeography was a local call even 
though it was over 30 miles away.  So they kindly gave me a connection for 
the summer, and I only had to make short calls back to MA for my mail.

These days it's all Comcast.  Sigh.

R's,
John


From lyndon at orthanc.ca  Wed Mar 16 16:58:00 2016
From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 16:58:00 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <4F06EE7C-F4C6-4D27-808E-0A5FA3826ACC@orthanc.ca>


> On Mar 16, 2016, at 4:46 PM, John R. Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
> 
> Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!

Well done!


From randy at psg.com  Wed Mar 16 17:30:47 2016
From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:30:47 +0900
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <m2egbalzd4.wl%randy@psg.com>

>> No doubt. But I've been using suucp for well(!) over a decade. Why
>> change what works?
> Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!

you may not want to do that.


From johnl at iecc.com  Wed Mar 16 17:37:15 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine)
Date: 16 Mar 2016 20:37:15 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <m2egbalzd4.wl%randy@psg.com>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
	<m2egbalzd4.wl%randy@psg.com>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603162035180.60700@ary.lan>

>> Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!
>
> you may not want to do that.

I didn't say I would win.  I'm not that old, totally missed the 709x 
series, and started on PDP-6, PDP-8, and IBM 1130.  There was also a 
Packard Bell (later Raytheon) 250 with delay line memory but it didn't 
work all that well.

R's,
John



From cos at aaaaa.org  Wed Mar 16 21:16:08 2016
From: cos at aaaaa.org (Ofer Inbar)
Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 23:16:08 -0500
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603162035180.60700@ary.lan>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
	<m2egbalzd4.wl%randy@psg.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603162035180.60700@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <20160317041608.GN1577@mip.aaaaa.org>

On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 08:37:15PM -0400,
"John R. Levine" <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
> >> Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!
> >
> > you may not want to do that.
> 
> I didn't say I would win.

I think the airline industry must win that one, with their
communications protocols that were already old and crufty when
the Internet was new.

I think it was less than 5 years ago that I was in a conference call
when someone at the other end asked me if we would prefer EBCDIC or
ASCII for the link we were setting up with them.  I'm sure if I'd
said EBCDIC they would've provided it.

So on the topic of "obscure email systems", they've still got what
they refer to as "teletype messages" which can be addressed to go
directly (well, via store-and-forward through multiple hops) to
printers intended for humans to read.  Messages in the teletype
format have a 64 character maximum line length, and are limited
to the teletype character set (which is all-caps, of course), and
actually use some of the low ASCII codes for their name-appropriate
purposes; for example ^B STX marks the start of the message body
(start of text!) and ^C ETX marks the end of the message body.

Mostly, tty messages in the airline industry these days are from one
reservations system to another, generated and parsed by computers, but
some are still hand-entered by humans, and some are still addressed to
endpoints such as printers or mailboxes intended to be read by humans.
It is a sort of email that pre-dates email (and was never called email).

Addresses are 7 character alphanumeric (all caps!) strings, where the
last two characters indicate the recipient system, and the first 5 are
basically the "local part" but follow a standard convention of 3 char
location + 2 char category/type.  For example CLTRMAA would be
American Airlines, Reservations Message, Charlotte NC (location is
generally an airport code, or one of a few standard conventions like
"HDQ" for "headquarters").

If you lose a checked bag after a flight and they trace it, chances
are good that the baggage department's notification that the bag was
found was sent to them as a teletype message by the baggage department
that found it at some other airport.  Human-entered, human-read.

At least there were (probably!) no actual teletypes involved :)
But there may have been some ASCII->EBCDIC->ASCII on the way...
  -- Cos


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Thu Mar 17 02:34:28 2016
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 05:34:28 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160317041608.GN1577@mip.aaaaa.org>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
	<m2egbalzd4.wl%randy@psg.com>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603162035180.60700@ary.lan>
	<20160317041608.GN1577@mip.aaaaa.org>
Message-ID: <56EA7A24.6080306@meetinghouse.net>

Telex is still in use in some places, as is Morse Code.

On 3/17/16 12:16 AM, Ofer Inbar wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 08:37:15PM -0400,
> "John R. Levine" <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
>>>> Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!
>>> you may not want to do that.
>> I didn't say I would win.
> I think the airline industry must win that one, with their
> communications protocols that were already old and crufty when
> the Internet was new.
>
> I think it was less than 5 years ago that I was in a conference call
> when someone at the other end asked me if we would prefer EBCDIC or
> ASCII for the link we were setting up with them.  I'm sure if I'd
> said EBCDIC they would've provided it.
>
> So on the topic of "obscure email systems", they've still got what
> they refer to as "teletype messages" which can be addressed to go
> directly (well, via store-and-forward through multiple hops) to
> printers intended for humans to read.  Messages in the teletype
> format have a 64 character maximum line length, and are limited
> to the teletype character set (which is all-caps, of course), and
> actually use some of the low ASCII codes for their name-appropriate
> purposes; for example ^B STX marks the start of the message body
> (start of text!) and ^C ETX marks the end of the message body.
>
> Mostly, tty messages in the airline industry these days are from one
> reservations system to another, generated and parsed by computers, but
> some are still hand-entered by humans, and some are still addressed to
> endpoints such as printers or mailboxes intended to be read by humans.
> It is a sort of email that pre-dates email (and was never called email).
>
> Addresses are 7 character alphanumeric (all caps!) strings, where the
> last two characters indicate the recipient system, and the first 5 are
> basically the "local part" but follow a standard convention of 3 char
> location + 2 char category/type.  For example CLTRMAA would be
> American Airlines, Reservations Message, Charlotte NC (location is
> generally an airport code, or one of a few standard conventions like
> "HDQ" for "headquarters").
>
> If you lose a checked bag after a flight and they trace it, chances
> are good that the baggage department's notification that the bag was
> found was sent to them as a teletype message by the baggage department
> that found it at some other airport.  Human-entered, human-read.
>
> At least there were (probably!) no actual teletypes involved :)
> But there may have been some ASCII->EBCDIC->ASCII on the way...
>    -- Cos
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra



From julf at julf.com  Thu Mar 17 06:22:21 2016
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:22:21 +0100
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
References: <20160316223103.26502.qmail@ary.lan>
	<134DB8EC-71B7-4730-8EAB-02AF44BA09A6@orthanc.ca>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603161923230.59150@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EAAF8D.4020806@julf.com>

On 17-03-16 00:46, John R. Levine wrote:

> Ooh, let's play mine's older and cruftier than yours!

Not going to go there! :)

> I certainly used UUCP for a long time -- back in the 1980s
> I was using it for mail and news, calling a friendly system
> near my home in Cambridge MA.

I did my (mandatory) military service in Finland in 1985-1986.
I did have a PC with me, but all "private and uncontrolled"
communication systems were banned - all we could use was
a public calling-card-operated phone in the corridor. So I had
weekly batches of email and netnews on uucp-batch-files-over-
floppy-disks brought in (or picked up on weekend leaves).

    Julf

   


From johnl at iecc.com  Thu Mar 17 08:14:07 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 17 Mar 2016 15:14:07 -0000
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EA7A24.6080306@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <20160317151407.29944.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <56EA7A24.6080306 at meetinghouse.net> you write:
>Telex is still in use in some places, as is Morse Code.

I know that Morse is still around but I was under the impression that
all the telex services had shut down.  The only one Wikipedia
references is in Iran and the link is very dead.

R's,
John


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Thu Mar 17 08:22:16 2016
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:22:16 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160317151407.29944.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160317151407.29944.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EACBA8.8050706@meetinghouse.net>

Inmarsat still claims to provide telex for maritime use.

On 3/17/16 11:14 AM, John Levine wrote:
> In article <56EA7A24.6080306 at meetinghouse.net> you write:
>> Telex is still in use in some places, as is Morse Code.
> I know that Morse is still around but I was under the impression that
> all the telex services had shut down.  The only one Wikipedia
> references is in Iran and the link is very dead.
>
> R's,
> John

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra



From bernie at fantasyfarm.com  Thu Mar 17 09:44:16 2016
From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 12:44:16 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EACBA8.8050706@meetinghouse.net>
References: <20160317151407.29944.qmail@ary.lan>,
	<56EACBA8.8050706@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <56EADEE0.26179.D78EE4B@bernie.fantasyfarm.com>

It's not really worth mentioning other than that it was such a kludge: 
when we moved down to the farm there was *NO* internet access at all [not 
even AOL dialup!!  This was in 1992].   I did have a dial-in account in 
Brookline [at world.std.com] but that was a long distance call.  UGH!   
At the time I had an Amiga here at home.   It had a reasonable email 
client on it.

SO: I got all my email at world.  I then wrote a progam on the Amiga that 
would dial into World and Zmodem down my pending email, and dump it into 
the right place so my Amiga client would think that email had arrived.  
Outgoing email was put into a queue and I also wrote a program to 
'execute' things on the World system [like FTPs and such] -- it added 
those commands to the outbound email queue.  Then I'd run my 'send' 
program that'd zmodem upload all the outgoing stuff and kick off a Unix 
script that'd parse the file and do what needs doing [posting emails, 
grabbing files, whatever].   That worked for several years until there 
was a local ISP I could dial into and then I could just do POP/SMTP email 
like all the other dialin users.  but the long-distance dialing stuff was 
really fun -- a bit reminiscent of how CSNET worked.   Also inexpensive: 
it was remarkably quick for my program to dial into world, do its 
business and hang up.

   /Bernie\

-- 
Bernie Cosell                     Fantasy Farm Fibers
mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com     Pearisburg, VA
    -->  Too many people, too few sheep  <--       





From johnl at iecc.com  Thu Mar 17 10:23:00 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 17 Mar 2016 17:23:00 -0000
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EACBA8.8050706@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <56EACBA8.8050706 at meetinghouse.net> you write:
>Inmarsat still claims to provide telex for maritime use.

So they do.  It's closing in December.

http://www.inmarsat.com/services/safety/inmarsat-b/

Perhaps we should schedule a wake.

R's,
John


From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Thu Mar 17 11:22:45 2016
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:22:45 -0700
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>



On 3/17/2016 10:23 AM, John Levine wrote:
>> Inmarsat still claims to provide telex for maritime use.
> So they do.  It's closing in December.
...
> Perhaps we should schedule a wake.


maritime.  wake.  clever...

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From johnl at iecc.com  Thu Mar 17 11:59:38 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine)
Date: 17 Mar 2016 14:59:38 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>
References: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan> <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603171459140.66628@ary.lan>

>>> Inmarsat still claims to provide telex for maritime use.
>> So they do.  It's closing in December.
> ...
>> Perhaps we should schedule a wake.
> maritime.  wake.  clever...

Considering what boat anchors most telex machines were, it seems 
inevitable.

R's,
John


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Thu Mar 17 12:10:13 2016
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:10:13 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>
References: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan> <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <56EB0115.2010607@meetinghouse.net>


On 3/17/16 2:22 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
>
> On 3/17/2016 10:23 AM, John Levine wrote:
>>> Inmarsat still claims to provide telex for maritime use.
>> So they do.  It's closing in December.
> ...
>> Perhaps we should schedule a wake.
>
> maritime.  wake.  clever...

Yes, but perhaps in light of Ray Tomlinson's recent, and untimely demise 
- a bit too soon to be talking about wakes.

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra



From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Thu Mar 17 12:20:02 2016
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:20:02 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <alpine.OSX.2.11.1603171459140.66628@ary.lan>
References: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan> <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603171459140.66628@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EB0362.8050800@meetinghouse.net>


On 3/17/16 2:59 PM, John R. Levine wrote:
>>>> Inmarsat still claims to provide telex for maritime use.
>>> So they do.  It's closing in December.
>> ...
>>> Perhaps we should schedule a wake.
>> maritime.  wake.  clever...
> Considering what boat anchors most telex machines were, it seems
> inevitable.

Hey... I learned to type on an ASR33, and they made very good computer 
terminals, for a lot of years. :-)

Cheers,

Miles



-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra



From bill.n1vux at gmail.com  Thu Mar 17 12:50:19 2016
From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:50:19 -0400
Subject: [ih] Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EB0362.8050800@meetinghouse.net>
References: <20160317172300.30303.qmail@ary.lan> <56EAF5F5.30701@dcrocker.net>
	<alpine.OSX.2.11.1603171459140.66628@ary.lan>
	<56EB0362.8050800@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <CAAbKA3VgN6E1GzFSEGung7yuwXvEwdyAvEyvG=0igFqakJMhVA@mail.gmail.com>

On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
wrote:

> Hey... I learned to type on an ASR33, and they made very good computer
> terminals, for a lot of years. :-)


BETTER AN ASR33 THAN A KSR33?

?... and don't stick low-speed yellow tape in ?your pocket for long ...


-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1vux at gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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From johnl at iecc.com  Thu Mar 17 13:26:08 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 17 Mar 2016 20:26:08 -0000
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EB0362.8050800@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <20160317202608.30707.qmail@ary.lan>

>Hey... I learned to type on an ASR33, and they made very good computer 
>terminals, for a lot of years. :-)

I learned to type on a manual typewriter with blank keycaps, but I
also did a lot of typing on an ASR-33.  I could read the holes in the
tape visually pretty well.

On the other hand, I have to note that an ASR-33 would have been used
for TWX, not Telex.  A Telex would use an ASR-32 or more likely an
older and sturdier model 28.

Helpfully,
John


From jeanjour at comcast.net  Thu Mar 17 15:06:07 2016
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 18:06:07 -0400
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160317202608.30707.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160317202608.30707.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <A5B54D88-128F-417A-B1BA-D92C6F9CD7B9@comcast.net>

I think it was, a Brit named, Chris Evans, that referred to Teletypes as ?your basic steam terminal.? ;-) I always thought that was a very appropriate description.

John
> On Mar 17, 2016, at 16:26, John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
> 
>> Hey... I learned to type on an ASR33, and they made very good computer 
>> terminals, for a lot of years. :-)
> 
> I learned to type on a manual typewriter with blank keycaps, but I
> also did a lot of typing on an ASR-33.  I could read the holes in the
> tape visually pretty well.
> 
> On the other hand, I have to note that an ASR-33 would have been used
> for TWX, not Telex.  A Telex would use an ASR-32 or more likely an
> older and sturdier model 28.
> 
> Helpfully,
> John
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.




From larrysheldon at cox.net  Thu Mar 17 17:35:04 2016
From: larrysheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:35:04 -0500
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160317202608.30707.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160317202608.30707.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EB4D38.3080707@cox.net>

On 3/17/2016 15:26, John Levine wrote:
>> Hey... I learned to type on an ASR33, and they made very good computer
>> terminals, for a lot of years. :-)
>
> I learned to type on a manual typewriter with blank keycaps, but I
> also did a lot of typing on an ASR-33.  I could read the holes in the
> tape visually pretty well.
>
> On the other hand, I have to note that an ASR-33 would have been used
> for TWX, not Telex.  A Telex would use an ASR-32 or more likely an
> older and sturdier model 28.

Not to be argumentative, but I think a TWX Would almost certainly have 
been a 14, 15, or 19 and maybe an occasional 28.

The odds are that a DTWX machine would have been from the same set in 
the early days, but there were no doubt 3x and 4x machines as time and I 
went on.

Out of that same era there might be cause to mention any of a number of 
leased-line networks that had a variety of address structures from the 
ornate airlines systems (UAL, DAL, ATA) down through the 81B1 and 83B1 
systems by the hundreds (or thousands?) (some with interchange 
"gateways" between autonomous networks) to the State of California torn 
tape network.



-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)


From johnl at iecc.com  Thu Mar 17 19:23:13 2016
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 18 Mar 2016 02:23:13 -0000
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EB4D38.3080707@cox.net>
Message-ID: <20160318022313.31454.qmail@ary.lan>

>> On the other hand, I have to note that an ASR-33 would have been used
>> for TWX, not Telex.  A Telex would use an ASR-32 or more likely an
>> older and sturdier model 28.
>
>Not to be argumentative, but I think a TWX Would almost certainly have 
>been a 14, 15, or 19 and maybe an occasional 28.

As I recall, there was three row 5-level baudot TWX with regular phone
numbers and four row 8 level ASCII TWX with N10 phone numbers.  You
could call from one to the other through gateways, ASCII to baudot
used the mysterious "restrain" signal to tell the sending machine to
wait so the gateway could catch up.

The 8 level TWX would all have been model 33 or 35.  I never heard of
the machines later than the 35 used for anything other than talking to
computers.

I did all of my telexing through the gateway from MCI Mail, which gave
every MCI Mail account a telex number.  It worked pretty well, give or
take problems persuading correspondents who knew that all US telex
numbers were 6 digits that your number really did have 10 digits.  I
also got the occasional telex from people who could not imagine that
there wasn't a machine with an operator at the other end and got
irritated that I didn't start typing back when they rang the bell.

R's,
John


From larrysheldon at cox.net  Thu Mar 17 21:35:48 2016
From: larrysheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 23:35:48 -0500
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160318022313.31454.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160318022313.31454.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EB85A4.1080803@cox.net>

On 3/17/2016 21:23, John Levine wrote:
>>> On the other hand, I have to note that an ASR-33 would have been used
>>> for TWX, not Telex.  A Telex would use an ASR-32 or more likely an
>>> older and sturdier model 28.
>>
>> Not to be argumentative, but I think a TWX Would almost certainly have
>> been a 14, 15, or 19 and maybe an occasional 28.
>
> As I recall, there was three row 5-level baudot TWX with regular phone
> numbers and four row 8 level ASCII TWX with N10 phone numbers.  You
> could call from one to the other through gateways, ASCII to baudot
> used the mysterious "restrain" signal to tell the sending machine to
> wait so the gateway could catch up.
>
> The 8 level TWX would all have been model 33 or 35.  I never heard of
> the machines later than the 35 used for anything other than talking to
> computers.
>
> I did all of my telexing through the gateway from MCI Mail, which gave
> every MCI Mail account a telex number.  It worked pretty well, give or
> take problems persuading correspondents who knew that all US telex
> numbers were 6 digits that your number really did have 10 digits.  I
> also got the occasional telex from people who could not imagine that
> there wasn't a machine with an operator at the other end and got
> irritated that I didn't start typing back when they rang the bell.

My main nit that I was picking at is that TWX was a manual, cord-board 
thing at 60wpm.

It died and went away with the conversion (using the same machines with 
a new subset) to DTWX.

At about the same time the 100wpm system came on--UAL and DAL being the 
first two subs I remember and to only ones I can remember the names of. 
  It was a very airline-centric system with airline addressing (three 
character place, 2 character function and they used 10-digit telephone 
numbers including a 3-digit SNPA).  If that was expanded to others, it 
must have been after I left that part of the business.


-- 
sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal)


From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Thu Mar 17 22:12:50 2016
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 22:12:50 -0700
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <20160318022313.31454.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20160318022313.31454.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <56EB8E52.6050909@dcrocker.net>


On 3/17/2016 7:23 PM, John Levine wrote:
> I did all of my telexing through the gateway from MCI Mail, which gave
> every MCI Mail account a telex number.  It worked pretty well, give or
> take problems persuading correspondents who knew that all US telex
> numbers were 6 digits that your number really did have 10 digits.


The MCI Mail system was linked through a store-and-forward telex gateway 
at its subsidiary, Western Union International.  The effort to make that 
gateway work was surprisingly more effort than I (we) expected.

And yeah, the only way we could interface all 125K+ MCI Mail accounts 
into the system was by going to the much larger telex number, though 
that meant some places out there couldn't handle it.

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From lpress at csudh.edu  Fri Mar 18 06:36:53 2016
From: lpress at csudh.edu (Larry Press)
Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 13:36:53 +0000
Subject: [ih] TWX and Telex, was Obscure e-mail systems
In-Reply-To: <56EB4D38.3080707@cox.net>
References: <20160317202608.30707.qmail@ary.lan>,<56EB4D38.3080707@cox.net>
Message-ID: <1458308215571.76139@csudh.edu>


> Hey... I learned to type on an ASR33, and they made very good computer
> terminals, for a lot of years. :-)

I learned to type on keypunch machines, but the most unusual terminal I ever used regularly was a video display with a light pen plus a TTY on the Q32 at SDC.
Larry


From ford at isoc.org  Tue Mar 22 14:00:33 2016
From: ford at isoc.org (Matthew Ford)
Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 21:00:33 +0000
Subject: [ih] Given the history,
	what's your opinion about the Internet's future?
Message-ID: <0EECB731-1A49-470D-BCB2-67B40C04D749@isoc.org>

Given the deep knowledge of the Internet?s historical development on this list, I thought folks here may be interested to learn about some work that the Internet Society is doing to consult widely on views about the future for the Internet.

As a first step, we are looking for input about the forces of change impacting the Internet's future.

If you?d like to share your perspective, you?ll find our survey available in English (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/member_public), French (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ISOC-French), and Spanish (https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/ISOC-Spanish). It is open until 8 April.  You can also find the links on our webpage (http://www.internetsociety.org/future-internet) for the project. 

We would like to get broad global participation so please feel free to share this survey with others in your network.

Regards,
Mat