From jtk at depaul.edu Tue Sep 1 14:03:28 2015 From: jtk at depaul.edu (John Kristoff) Date: Tue, 1 Sep 2015 21:03:28 +0000 Subject: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? Message-ID: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> I'm curious why DVMRP was put into IGMP, as opposed to being put on top of UDP or perhaps even as an extension to RIP, which DVMRP's close cousin used. Maybe the use of IGMP by DVMRP was just to keep IP multicast protocols essentially together, or was there some other rationale? No other IP multicast routing protocol that I'm aware went this route and only a small handful of little used measurement features ended up going into IGMP, performing something beyond its core functionality of group membership maintenance. Perhaps Steve Deering or something who was involved in this early work can shed some light on the original ideas? Thank you, John From craig at aland.bbn.com Tue Sep 1 15:29:10 2015 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 01 Sep 2015 18:29:10 -0400 Subject: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? In-Reply-To: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> References: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <20150901222910.0C45242097A@aland.bbn.com> I should remember (I was the PI of the BBN project that collaborated in implementing DVMRP with Steve Deering). But I don't. I'll see if I can hunt down an answer. Thanks! Craig John Kristoff writes: > I'm curious why DVMRP was put into IGMP, as opposed to being put on top > of UDP or perhaps even as an extension to RIP, which DVMRP's close > cousin used. > > Maybe the use of IGMP by DVMRP was just to keep IP multicast protocols > essentially together, or was there some other rationale? > > No other IP multicast routing protocol that I'm aware went this route > and only a small handful of little used measurement features ended up > going into IGMP, performing something beyond its core functionality of > group membership maintenance. > > Perhaps Steve Deering or something who was involved in this early work > can shed some light on the original ideas? Thank you, > > John > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From deering at brunzel.org Wed Sep 2 20:40:14 2015 From: deering at brunzel.org (Steve Deering) Date: Wed, 2 Sep 2015 20:40:14 -0700 Subject: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? In-Reply-To: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> References: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <5B4A252D-FB2C-465E-9561-7E50119BB50E@brunzel.org> John, I don't remember why, but if I had to guess, it was probably because I had obtained the assignment of the the IP Protocol number for IGMP from Jon Postel, but didn't think I could justify, to Jon's satisfaction, getting another Protocol number or well-known UDP port number for what was just a grad-student's experimental protocol. Similarly, extending the RIP specification probably seemed above my pay grade. So, likely no architectural reason, just a convenience at the time. Steve On Sep 1, 2015, at 2:03 PM, John Kristoff wrote: > I'm curious why DVMRP was put into IGMP, as opposed to being put on top > of UDP or perhaps even as an extension to RIP, which DVMRP's close > cousin used. > > Maybe the use of IGMP by DVMRP was just to keep IP multicast protocols > essentially together, or was there some other rationale? > > No other IP multicast routing protocol that I'm aware went this route > and only a small handful of little used measurement features ended up > going into IGMP, performing something beyond its core functionality of > group membership maintenance. > > Perhaps Steve Deering or something who was involved in this early work > can shed some light on the original ideas? Thank you, > > John > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From jtk at depaul.edu Thu Sep 3 05:43:17 2015 From: jtk at depaul.edu (John Kristoff) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:43:17 +0000 Subject: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? In-Reply-To: <0bbd43acb4fd45b3a89d27acfbde6259@XCASPRD02-DFT.dpu.depaul.edu> References: <0bbd43acb4fd45b3a89d27acfbde6259@XCASPRD02-DFT.dpu.depaul.edu> Message-ID: <20150903124317.GD17335@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> Forwarded with permission. Note the question that David has of his own at the end. From: David Waitzman Subject: Re: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? John, Craig Partridge forwarded me your inquiry. I was the primary implementor of the first version of DVMRP, as described in RFC-1075. I think your second paragraph nailed the reason: we kept the IP multicast protocols together. Regarding RIP: I originally wanted to call the protocol MRIP (Multicast RIP), but was voted down since RIP (the version of that time) was +considered a poor protocol. One interesting tidbit which I would loved to have verified by Internet historians, is that DVMRP defined the very first IP tunnels. I +originally used this feature to tunnel multicast packets across the ARPAnet. From scott.brim at gmail.com Thu Sep 3 13:45:31 2015 From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 16:45:31 -0400 Subject: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? In-Reply-To: <5B4A252D-FB2C-465E-9561-7E50119BB50E@brunzel.org> References: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> <5B4A252D-FB2C-465E-9561-7E50119BB50E@brunzel.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 2, 2015 at 11:40 PM, Steve Deering wrote: > John, > > I don't remember why, but if I had to guess, it was probably because I had > obtained the assignment of the the IP Protocol number for IGMP from Jon > Postel, but didn't think I could justify, to Jon's satisfaction, getting > another Protocol number or well-known UDP port number for what was just a > grad-student's experimental protocol. Similarly, extending the RIP > specification probably seemed above my pay grade. So, likely no > architectural reason, just a convenience at the time. > My vague memory is that you thought it was a positive thing, architecturally good, to keep them together. Scott -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From deering at brunzel.org Thu Sep 3 14:17:46 2015 From: deering at brunzel.org (Steve Deering) Date: Thu, 3 Sep 2015 14:17:46 -0700 Subject: [ih] Why was DVMRP put into IGMP? In-Reply-To: References: <20150901210328.GA16622@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> <5B4A252D-FB2C-465E-9561-7E50119BB50E@brunzel.org> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2015, at 1:45 PM, Scott Brim wrote: > My vague memory is that you thought it was a positive thing, architecturally good, to keep them together. You may well be correct, especially since David W.'s memory agrees with yours. Steve From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Tue Sep 15 10:06:57 2015 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:06:57 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP Message-ID: <55F85031.3000506@dcrocker.net> Howdy. At a conference yesterday: http://youtu.be/_7rcAIbvzVY I heard a presenter offer a rather creative interpretation of the history of IPv6, which deviated significantly from my own understanding of it. It might be worth trying to document the actual major milestones. In this case, I'm sure the errors were true errors, unlike the unfortunate recent shenanigans about the history of email, but I'm thinking that it would be reasonable to repeat the exercise we did for that: emailhistory.org The idea would be to have community discussion and agreement about the major milestones. Which milestones were seminal? When did they occur? Is there documentation for it? Maybe who the actors were. I'd originally focused on IPv6, but a facebook thread on this produced a suggestion to broaden to all of IP (and I think that requires including TCP.) If folk are interested, I'll set up tcpiphistory.net for this purpose. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From sghuter at nsrc.org Tue Sep 15 10:48:32 2015 From: sghuter at nsrc.org (Steven G. Huter) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 10:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ih] A History of Networking in Costa Rica Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdBwp-BB54I&index=1&list=PLV88ZmvwupLzbnQGdSl4ZGY8xVvQkk_3m Steve Huter From craig at aland.bbn.com Tue Sep 15 10:56:03 2015 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:56:03 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F85031.3000506@dcrocker.net> References: <55F85031.3000506@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <8EECCE72-C176-43E1-85BA-250741C40070@aland.bbn.com> > > The idea would be to have community discussion and agreement about the > major milestones. Which milestones were seminal? When did they occur? > Is there documentation for it? Maybe who the actors were. > > I'd originally focused on IPv6, but a facebook thread on this produced a > suggestion to broaden to all of IP (and I think that requires including > TCP.) Hi Dave: Not sure I have time this busy fall to do more than kibbitz, but in the interests of helping out, here are some dates that may help. February 1978 - first spec for IP (version 2) in IEN 28. This was the product of a hallway conversation at an Internet meeting at Marina del Rey (the hallway discussion included Vint, Jon Postel, Danny Cohen, Dave Reed, Steve Crocker and perhaps another person or two). Dave Reed also credits prior work by John Shoch at PARC and the help of the meeting participants after the hallway meeting ? apparently the team sketched the IP header on a white board and worked through which mechanisms should be in IP and how. April 1989 - Mike St Johns graphs the demand for IPv4 addresses and shows address depletion likely c. 2000. See his presentation at IETF 13. My view is this was the first alert we had a problem for IPv4. July/August 1990 - Frank Solensky redoes St Johns? analysis by address class (remember Classes A, B, C, D, and E?) and discovers Class B will be exhausted around the start 1994. See his presentation at IETF 18. My personal recollection is this was the ?oh no? (insert worse words) moment and eventually led to the creation of the ROAD group in November 1991 (see IETF 23 announcement). I can?t quite date the creation of CIDR and NAT but they were ROAD group products sometime in early 1992. Craig From jpgs at ittc.ku.edu Tue Sep 15 11:07:26 2015 From: jpgs at ittc.ku.edu (=?utf-8?Q?=22James_P=2EG=2E_Sterbenz_=E5=8F=B8=E5=BE=92=E5=82=91?= =?utf-8?Q?=E8=8E=AB_=EC=86=A1=EC=9E=AC=EC=9C=A4=22?=) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 13:07:26 -0500 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F85031.3000506@dcrocker.net> References: <55F85031.3000506@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: On 15 Sep 2015, at 12:06, Dave Crocker wrote: > Howdy. > > At a conference yesterday: > > http://youtu.be/_7rcAIbvzVY > > I heard a presenter offer a rather creative interpretation of the > history of IPv6, which deviated significantly from my own understanding > of it. > > It might be worth trying to document the actual major milestones. > > In this case, I'm sure the errors were true errors, unlike the > unfortunate recent shenanigans about the history of email, but I'm > thinking that it would be reasonable to repeat the exercise we did for that: > > emailhistory.org > > The idea would be to have community discussion and agreement about the > major milestones. Which milestones were seminal? When did they occur? > Is there documentation for it? Maybe who the actors were. This is an excellent idea, and I?m sure I wouldn?t be the only person for which it would be a useful reference for teaching networking courses. > > I'd originally focused on IPv6, but a facebook thread on this produced a > suggestion to broaden to all of IP (and I think that requires including > TCP.) > > If folk are interested, I'll set up tcpiphistory.net for this purpose. Please do. I?d hope that related major milestones in Cyclades and Davie?s NPL would be included. Cheers, James -------------------------------------------------------------------------- James P.G. Sterbenz ???? ??? +1 508 944 3067 www.ittc.ku.edu/~jpgs jpgs@{ittc|eecs}.ku.edu 154 Nichols ITTC EECS ? The University of Kansas jpgs at comp.lancs.ac.uk Comp & Comms and InfoLab21 ? Lancaster University jpgs at comp.polyu.edu.hk Computing ? The Hong Kong Polytechnic University jpgs at tik.ee.ethz.ch jpgs@{acm|ieee|comsoc|computer|m.ieice}.org jpgs at sterbenz.org skype:jpgsterbenz jpgsterbenz at gmail.com jpgs!scc!lancs!janet!geant!moskvax!ihnp4!internet2!gpn!kanren!ku!ittc!jpgs From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Sep 15 11:17:55 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 15 Sep 2015 14:17:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP Message-ID: <20150915181755.2FC3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Crocker > a rather creative interpretation of the history of IPv6 > ... the major milestones. Mention of 'major milestones' of IPv6 reminds me of a story I once heard about Satoru Nakajima, one-time driver for the Lotus Formula 1 team. At that time Lotus was using Honda engines, and Nakajima-san was part of the package (as Honda wished to have a Japanese driver in F1). He was, ah, not very successful, although the rap that he was not really up to F1 standards and was only there because of Honda was only partially true - his son Kazuki was later on quite a well throught-of driver in F1. Anyway, here's the story: some VIPs were visiting the Lotus factory, and one of them looked closely at the Lotus F1 car's side rear-view mirrors (which were, like all F1 side mirrors, as small as possible for aerodynamic reasons). He uttered some comment about how small they were, whereupon one of the mechanics hanging about opined rather acerbicly that that didn't matter, because there was never anything there to see! Noel From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Sep 15 12:55:43 2015 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 07:55:43 +1200 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150915181755.2FC3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150915181755.2FC3B18C0C2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55F877BF.2060609@gmail.com> On 16/09/2015 06:17, Noel Chiappa wrote: ... > Anyway, here's the story: some VIPs were visiting the Lotus factory, and one > of them looked closely at the Lotus F1 car's side rear-view mirrors (which > were, like all F1 side mirrors, as small as possible for aerodynamic > reasons). He uttered some comment about how small they were, whereupon one of > the mechanics hanging about opined rather acerbicly that that didn't matter, > because there was never anything there to see! But of course there was: a Brabham (or something) about to lap the Lotus. When designing IPv6, we didn't really take enough notice of the NATmobile about to lap us. I agree that it's a good idea to capture this history. There are resources already, such as http://www.sobco.com/ipng/ Brian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 16 05:18:37 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:18:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP Message-ID: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: James P. Sterbenz > I'd hope that related major milestones in Cyclades and Davie[s'] NPL > would be included. So I'm curious, why Davies' stuff? Other than the name of packet switching (not to belittle the importance of that, sometimes a good name is worth a great deal indeed), what major technical influence did his work have? (This is not snark, but a genuine question - I'm pretty familiar with the literature, but I don't know of any - or, at least, I've never seen anything which examines this particular point, and provides an answer.) I know we have a number of early ARPANet people here - perhaps one of them has some insight here? Noel From vint at google.com Wed Sep 16 05:37:20 2015 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:37:20 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: actually their experience with a one-node local area network influenced Roberts' choice of data rate. Roger Scantlebury attended the 1967 meeting at which he met Larry and said that higher speed would reduce delay. Larry ended up with 50 Kb/s lines rather slower 2.4 kb/s lines. Roger and Donald and others were very active in INWG, EIN as well. v On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 8:18 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: James P. Sterbenz > > > I'd hope that related major milestones in Cyclades and Davie[s'] NPL > > would be included. > > So I'm curious, why Davies' stuff? Other than the name of packet switching > (not to belittle the importance of that, sometimes a good name is worth a > great deal indeed), what major technical influence did his work have? > > (This is not snark, but a genuine question - I'm pretty familiar with the > literature, but I don't know of any - or, at least, I've never seen > anything > which examines this particular point, and provides an answer.) > > I know we have a number of early ARPANet people here - perhaps one of them > has some insight here? > > Noel > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jpgs at ittc.ku.edu Wed Sep 16 06:01:27 2015 From: jpgs at ittc.ku.edu (=?utf-8?Q?=22James_P=2EG=2E_Sterbenz_=E5=8F=B8=E5=BE=92=E5=82=91?= =?utf-8?Q?=E8=8E=AB_=EC=86=A1=EC=9E=AC=EC=9C=A4=22?=) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 08:01:27 -0500 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 16 Sep 2015, at 07:18, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> From: James P. Sterbenz > >> I'd hope that related major milestones in Cyclades and Davie[s'] NPL >> would be included. > > So I'm curious, why Davies' stuff? Other than the name of packet switching > (not to belittle the importance of that, sometimes a good name is worth a > great deal indeed), what major technical influence did his work have? > > (This is not snark, but a genuine question - I'm pretty familiar with the > literature, but I don't know of any - or, at least, I've never seen anything > which examines this particular point, and provides an answer.) Congestion control? James > I know we have a number of early ARPANet people here - perhaps one of them > has some insight here? > > Noel > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- James P.G. Sterbenz ???? ??? +1 508 944 3067 www.ittc.ku.edu/~jpgs jpgs@{ittc|eecs}.ku.edu 154 Nichols ITTC EECS ? The University of Kansas jpgs at comp.lancs.ac.uk Comp & Comms and InfoLab21 ? Lancaster University jpgs at comp.polyu.edu.hk Computing ? The Hong Kong Polytechnic University jpgs at tik.ee.ethz.ch jpgs@{acm|ieee|comsoc|computer|m.ieice}.org jpgs at sterbenz.org skype:jpgsterbenz jpgsterbenz at gmail.com jpgs!scc!lancs!janet!geant!moskvax!ihnp4!internet2!gpn!kanren!ku!ittc!jpgs From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 16 06:12:54 2015 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 13:12:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Noel, Davies team told Larry Roberts about Paul Baran's work, which Larry was unaware of.? At a later time Davies team (Roger Scantlebury) also convinced Larry to build the ARPAnet with a small number of "high speed" (50kbps) lines rather than a large number of "low speed" (9.6 & 19.2 kbps) lines.? I think both of these events had major effects on the specification of ARPAnet and led to its success. Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the story. Cheers From: Noel Chiappa To: internet-history at postel.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP ? ? > From: James P. Sterbenz ? ? > I'd hope that related major milestones in Cyclades and Davie[s'] NPL ? ? > would be included. So I'm curious, why Davies' stuff? Other than the name of packet switching (not to belittle the importance of that, sometimes a good name is worth a great deal indeed), what major technical influence did his work have? (This is not snark, but a genuine question - I'm pretty familiar with the literature, but I don't know of any - or, at least, I've never seen anything which examines this particular point, and provides an answer.) I know we have a number of early ARPANet people here - perhaps one of them has some insight here? ??? Noel _______ internet-history mailing list internet-history at postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Wed Sep 16 07:09:01 2015 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:09:01 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55F977FD.1020307@meetinghouse.net> Re. Alex McKenzie wrote: > > Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of > TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that > question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in > the story. One might point out three things: - Both Cerf and Kahn served as ARPANET Program Manager - the NCP to TCP/IP cutover was perhaps the most significant date in TCP/IP history (except maybe for publication of the "A Protocol for Packet Network Intercommunication" 10 years earlier) - ARPANET split in half to create the MILNET (DDN) - made possible by IP, and arguably when the we began to have a real IP based Internet as a growing network-of-networks tied together by IP (before that TCP/IP was more experimental than operational, as I recall) Miles Fidelman BBN '85-'92 - worked on the early DDN, too late for the ARPANET, which was being whittled down when I got there -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Sep 16 07:32:40 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:32:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP Message-ID: <20150916143240.B91A818C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Vint Cerf > actually their experience with a one-node local area network influenced > Roberts' choice of data rate. Roger Scantlebury attended the 1967 > meeting at which he met Larry and said that higher speed would reduce > delay. Larry ended up with 50 Kb/s lines rather slower 2.4 kb/s lines. Ah, right, now that you mention it, I do recall that. I wonder how important a technical point that was, though? (See discussion below.) I should emphasize that I'm mostly focused on technical influences, in asking this. I know he and his co-workers had a big influence, in terms of 'moral suppport', etc, but that's different. I should further emphasize that I have _no_ axe _at all_ to grind, here - I simply want to know the truth. If he deserves a ton of credit, fine; if his _technical_ influence was modest, fine too. (And as a UK citizen living in the US, I claim to be pretty free of national bias! :-) > From: Alex McKenzie > Davies team told Larry Roberts about Paul Baran's work, which Larry was > unaware of. I think a better way to put it would be that they got Larry to go back and look at Baran's work, because the documentary record shows _definitively_ that he had contact with Baran's work _before_ he met Roger Scantlebury at the October, 1967 meeting in Gatlinburg. If you look at Baran's Oral History from the CBM (OH-182), pg. 37, you will find that Baran found documentary records (his old calendar) showing a visit from Larry Roberts in February, 1967 (the 28th, to be exact) - well before the Gatlinburg meeting. The interesting question, of course, is why Larry _apparently_ didn't pay much attention to Baran's work until the NPL people mentioned it? This is probably related to a question I've asked here before - why Baran's paper in the '64 IEEE ToN journal didn't get more attention. Maybe Larry got too focused on the _goals_ of Baran's work, and thus felt it wasn't relevant to his project? > At a later time Davies team (Roger Scantlebury) also convinced Larry to > build the ARPAnet with a small number of "high speed" (50kbps) lines > rather than a large number of "low speed" (9.6 & 19.2 kbps) lines. I'm trying to work out how important that was, technically. Would an ARPANET built, as you put it, of more, slower lines have worked? I.e. how critical was that intervention? We can only guess as to how the history would have unfolded without it, although one can do some analysis. The routing in a network with more, slower, links would have become an issue sooner than it did - becaue of both the size of the routing table, and also the slower update rate on the slower lines. However, but it's unclear how much of a problem that would have been - lagging response to changes was, after all, eventually solved by McQuillan. Would the network have behaved so poorly that it didn't last long enough for McQuillan to show up? I'm not sure about congestion, etc (e.g. re-assembly) issues - would those have been enough worse in an ARPANET with many more, but slower, links? And of course the big un-knowable is 'had the network been attempted to be built with many, slow, links, and had it not worked, would the people building it have recognized the need to move to faster links, and if so, how soon'? I ask these questions (even though they have no immediately clear answers - or for the last, probably cannot be answered) because the answers to them are needed before one can really assess how important a technical intervention this was. > Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of > TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that > question is "yes" I'd say very much 'yes': it showed that packet switching could work, taught us a first round of technical lessons in that area, and many of the applications were staples of the early Internet. Of course, in an alternate history, maybe NPL's work would have done the same if the ARPANET never existed, so who knows? Perhaps the CYCLADES work was even more important, because I don't know of an alternative that might have taught us the lessons it did about moving reliability into the hosts. Noel From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Sep 16 08:20:08 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 11:20:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150916143240.B91A818C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150916143240.B91A818C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0C27F580-AC03-4CA0-93D5-2FC3ADB4739B@comcast.net> The line speed was very important. Remember the ARPANET was built to be a production network to lower the cost of ARPA research on other things. It was to have major sites dedicated to compute and others to storage. The Net would have worked, but in terms of Robert?s goal of a resource sharing network that would allow sharing of major computing resources, it would have been painfully slow, and probably deemed a failure. The 56K lines kept the perceived response within expectations. All of the people not doing networking but using the ARPANET for other projects, of which there were a lot, would have found it more a barrier. There were a lot of people submitting ?big jobs? to CCN, Rutherford, Multics, etc. Tenex? character-at-a-time echoing would have been even worse than it was. (It was easy to type a line and a half ahead in those days before starting to get echoed characters.) Having the 56K lines at the beginning (which were hard to saturate for any sustained period) was a real boon that allowed us to treat it like a resource sharing facility, which is what generated the excitement. Even those days, 9.6K was reasonable speed for one person (maybe two) at a terminal doing development. Sharing that with a few hundred with more than a few doing essentially file transfers for RJE and you have one painfully slow network. And even then the greater popularity for some sites was prevalent. Starting with high speed lines meant that a whole raft uglinesses were avoided. > On Sep 16, 2015, at 10:32, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Vint Cerf > >> actually their experience with a one-node local area network influenced >> Roberts' choice of data rate. Roger Scantlebury attended the 1967 >> meeting at which he met Larry and said that higher speed would reduce >> delay. Larry ended up with 50 Kb/s lines rather slower 2.4 kb/s lines. > > Ah, right, now that you mention it, I do recall that. I wonder how important > a technical point that was, though? (See discussion below.) > > I should emphasize that I'm mostly focused on technical influences, in asking > this. I know he and his co-workers had a big influence, in terms of 'moral > suppport', etc, but that's different. I should further emphasize that I have > _no_ axe _at all_ to grind, here - I simply want to know the truth. If he > deserves a ton of credit, fine; if his _technical_ influence was modest, fine > too. (And as a UK citizen living in the US, I claim to be pretty free of > national bias! :-) > > >> From: Alex McKenzie > >> Davies team told Larry Roberts about Paul Baran's work, which Larry was >> unaware of. > > I think a better way to put it would be that they got Larry to go back and > look at Baran's work, because the documentary record shows _definitively_ > that he had contact with Baran's work _before_ he met Roger Scantlebury at > the October, 1967 meeting in Gatlinburg. > > If you look at Baran's Oral History from the CBM (OH-182), pg. 37, you will > find that Baran found documentary records (his old calendar) showing a visit > from Larry Roberts in February, 1967 (the 28th, to be exact) - well before > the Gatlinburg meeting. > > The interesting question, of course, is why Larry _apparently_ didn't pay > much attention to Baran's work until the NPL people mentioned it? This is > probably related to a question I've asked here before - why Baran's paper in > the '64 IEEE ToN journal didn't get more attention. Maybe Larry got too > focused on the _goals_ of Baran's work, and thus felt it wasn't relevant to > his project? > > >> At a later time Davies team (Roger Scantlebury) also convinced Larry to >> build the ARPAnet with a small number of "high speed" (50kbps) lines >> rather than a large number of "low speed" (9.6 & 19.2 kbps) lines. > > I'm trying to work out how important that was, technically. Would an ARPANET > built, as you put it, of more, slower lines have worked? I.e. how critical > was that intervention? We can only guess as to how the history would have > unfolded without it, although one can do some analysis. > > The routing in a network with more, slower, links would have become an issue > sooner than it did - becaue of both the size of the routing table, and also > the slower update rate on the slower lines. However, but it's unclear how > much of a problem that would have been - lagging response to changes was, > after all, eventually solved by McQuillan. Would the network have behaved so > poorly that it didn't last long enough for McQuillan to show up? > > I'm not sure about congestion, etc (e.g. re-assembly) issues - would those > have been enough worse in an ARPANET with many more, but slower, links? > > And of course the big un-knowable is 'had the network been attempted to be > built with many, slow, links, and had it not worked, would the people > building it have recognized the need to move to faster links, and if so, how > soon'? > > I ask these questions (even though they have no immediately clear answers - > or for the last, probably cannot be answered) because the answers to them are > needed before one can really assess how important a technical intervention > this was. > > >> Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of >> TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that >> question is "yes" > > I'd say very much 'yes': it showed that packet switching could work, taught > us a first round of technical lessons in that area, and many of the > applications were staples of the early Internet. > > Of course, in an alternate history, maybe NPL's work would have done the same > if the ARPANET never existed, so who knows? Perhaps the CYCLADES work was even > more important, because I don't know of an alternative that might have taught > us the lessons it did about moving reliability into the hosts. > > Noel > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From jpgs at ittc.ku.edu Wed Sep 16 08:55:10 2015 From: jpgs at ittc.ku.edu (=?utf-8?Q?=22James_P=2EG=2E_Sterbenz_=E5=8F=B8=E5=BE=92=E5=82=91?= =?utf-8?Q?=E8=8E=AB_=EC=86=A1=EC=9E=AC=EC=9C=A4=22?=) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 10:55:10 -0500 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <0C27F580-AC03-4CA0-93D5-2FC3ADB4739B@comcast.net> References: <20150916143240.B91A818C0E5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0C27F580-AC03-4CA0-93D5-2FC3ADB4739B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 16 Sep 2015, at 10:20, John Day wrote: > The line speed was very important. Remember the ARPANET was built to be a production network to lower the cost of ARPA research on other things. It was to have major sites dedicated to compute and others to storage. The Net would have worked, but in terms of Robert?s goal of a resource sharing network that would allow sharing of major computing resources, it would have been painfully slow, and probably deemed a failure. The 56K lines kept the perceived response within expectations. All of the people not doing networking but using the ARPANET for other projects, of which there were a lot, would have found it more a barrier. There were a lot of people submitting ?big jobs? to CCN, Rutherford, Multics, etc. Tenex? character-at-a-time echoing would have been even worse than it was. (It was easy to type a line and a half ahead in those days before starting to get echoed characters.) Having the 56K lines at the beginning (which were hard to saturate for any sustained period) was a real boon that allowed us to treat it like a resource sharing facility, which is what generated the excitement. > > Even those days, 9.6K was reasonable speed for one person (maybe two) at a terminal doing development. Sharing that with a few hundred with more than a few doing essentially file transfers for RJE and you have one painfully slow network. And even then the greater popularity for some sites was prevalent. > > Starting with high speed lines meant that a whole raft uglinesses were avoided. I remember vividly the day that we cut over from 56Kb/s leased lines to the NSFNET T1 backbone through MidNet (or was it MIDNET?) at Wash. U in 1986 or 1987. I initially thought something had to be wrong because it appeared that the files were transferring almost instantaneously, and I assumed truncated. Of course, we compensated by FTPing bigger files more often? Cheers, James -------------------------------------------------------------------------- James P.G. Sterbenz ???? ??? +1 508 944 3067 www.ittc.ku.edu/~jpgs jpgs@{ittc|eecs}.ku.edu 154 Nichols ITTC EECS ? The University of Kansas jpgs at comp.lancs.ac.uk Comp & Comms and InfoLab21 ? Lancaster University jpgs at comp.polyu.edu.hk Computing ? The Hong Kong Polytechnic University jpgs at tik.ee.ethz.ch jpgs@{acm|ieee|comsoc|computer|m.ieice}.org jpgs at sterbenz.org skype:jpgsterbenz jpgsterbenz at gmail.com jpgs!scc!lancs!janet!geant!moskvax!ihnp4!internet2!gpn!kanren!ku!ittc!jpgs From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Wed Sep 16 09:39:25 2015 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 09:39:25 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of > TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that > question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the > story. the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. that said, for the current exercise, i'm interested in limiting the scope to the history of major tcp/ip milestones. by way of marking a starting point for discussion, the anecdotal summary i heard a long time ago was that first discussions on internetworking were held during the arpanet public demonstration, at the first iccc in 1972. i'm not inclined to count that as a 'milestone' but would think that circulation of the first tcp design would count as the beginning marker for this timeline. but that's just my own perspective, and as i said, this is intended to be a community (rough consensus) effort. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 16 11:30:54 2015 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 18:30:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> References: <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <714314070.364287.1442428254346.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Dave, See my article published in the IEEE Annals of the History of Computing,? Vol 33, No 1, pp 66-71, titled "INWG and the Conception of the Internet".? A very slightly corrected version is available online at http://alexmckenzie.weebly.com/inwg-and-the-conception-of-the-internet-an-eyewitness-account.html Cheers,Alex From: Dave Crocker To: Alex McKenzie ; Noel Chiappa ; "internet-history at postel.org" Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 12:39 PM Subject: Re: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of > TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that > question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the > story. the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. that said, for the current exercise, i'm interested in limiting the scope to the history of major tcp/ip milestones. by way of marking a starting point for discussion, the anecdotal summary i heard a long time ago was that first discussions on internetworking were held during the arpanet public demonstration, at the first iccc in 1972. i'm not inclined to count that as a 'milestone' but would think that circulation of the first tcp design would count as the beginning marker for this timeline. but that's just my own perspective, and as i said, this is intended to be a community (rough consensus) effort. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vint at google.com Wed Sep 16 12:35:27 2015 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 15:35:27 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: INWG was formed in October 1972 at the ICCC meeting. By summer 1973 INWG #39 outlined ideas that eventually were refined and published in May 1974 (cerf/kahn article in IEEE Transactions on Communications) The first full TCP spec is RFC675 December 1974 v On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > > Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of > > TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that > > question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the > > story. > > > the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. > > that said, for the current exercise, i'm interested in limiting the > scope to the history of major tcp/ip milestones. > > by way of marking a starting point for discussion, the anecdotal summary > i heard a long time ago was that first discussions on internetworking > were held during the arpanet public demonstration, at the first iccc in > 1972. > > i'm not inclined to count that as a 'milestone' but would think that > circulation of the first tcp design would count as the beginning marker > for this timeline. > > but that's just my own perspective, and as i said, this is intended to > be a community (rough consensus) effort. > > d/ > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 13:03:46 2015 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 08:03:46 +1200 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <55F9CB22.1030506@gmail.com> Vint, how do you rate Pouzin's catenet paper (published versions are dated 1974) in that part of the story? I was a very remote observer at that time. (That was during my first spell in NZ and we were trying to make some early sort of X.25 work between Wellington and Palmerston North, having decided that the ARPANET protocol was not a realistic option. We picked X.25 because it was just then emerging - the original plan was to copy EPSS, the British experiment that definitely grew out of Davies' work. The NZ Post Office wanted us to copy whatever the British did, because that's what they did for all telecom in those days.) Regards Brian On 17/09/2015 07:35, Vint Cerf wrote: > INWG was formed in October 1972 at the ICCC meeting. > > By summer 1973 INWG #39 outlined ideas that eventually were refined and > published in May 1974 (cerf/kahn article in IEEE Transactions on > Communications) > > The first full TCP spec is RFC675 December 1974 > > v > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: > >> On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: >>> Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of >>> TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that >>> question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the >>> story. >> >> >> the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. >> >> that said, for the current exercise, i'm interested in limiting the >> scope to the history of major tcp/ip milestones. >> >> by way of marking a starting point for discussion, the anecdotal summary >> i heard a long time ago was that first discussions on internetworking >> were held during the arpanet public demonstration, at the first iccc in >> 1972. >> >> i'm not inclined to count that as a 'milestone' but would think that >> circulation of the first tcp design would count as the beginning marker >> for this timeline. >> >> but that's just my own perspective, and as i said, this is intended to >> be a community (rough consensus) effort. >> >> d/ >> >> -- >> Dave Crocker >> Brandenburg InternetWorking >> bbiw.net >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> > > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Wed Sep 16 13:27:17 2015 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 08:27:17 +1200 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <55F9D0A5.1040501@gmail.com> On 17/09/2015 04:39, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: >> Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of >> TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that >> question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the >> story. > > > the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. I'm looking at the book "Computer Networks and Their Protocols" by Davies et al, published 1979. It has a section on routing in large networks, which is really about inter-networking and hierarchical routing. As references for that topic, they cited Cerf & Kahn, IEEE Trans Communications COM-22 637 (May 1974) and Sunshine, Computer Networks 1 155 (Jan 1977). The book as a whole hardly discusses ARPANET though. It's X.25 based and describes an early sketch of something that looks like OSI TP4 transport. I guess Peter Kirstein was the only Brit interested in the ARPANET in those days. http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/kirstein-arpanet.pdf Brian From jeanjour at comcast.net Wed Sep 16 13:29:31 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 16:29:31 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F9CB22.1030506@gmail.com> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> <55F9CB22.1030506@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7660632A-C7F0-4BC1-A3FB-0B58BADD2A81@comcast.net> Pouzin was probably the strongest critic of X.25 in the world at the time. ;-) It was got him basically black-listed in France. CYCLADES was shut down because of his criticism of X.25 and the plans of the French PTT. > On Sep 16, 2015, at 16:03, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Vint, how do you rate Pouzin's catenet paper (published versions are dated > 1974) in that part of the story? I was a very remote observer at that time. > > (That was during my first spell in NZ and we were trying to make some early sort > of X.25 work between Wellington and Palmerston North, having decided that the > ARPANET protocol was not a realistic option. We picked X.25 because it was just > then emerging - the original plan was to copy EPSS, the British experiment that > definitely grew out of Davies' work. The NZ Post Office wanted us to copy > whatever the British did, because that's what they did for all telecom in those > days.) > > Regards > Brian > > On 17/09/2015 07:35, Vint Cerf wrote: >> INWG was formed in October 1972 at the ICCC meeting. >> >> By summer 1973 INWG #39 outlined ideas that eventually were refined and >> published in May 1974 (cerf/kahn article in IEEE Transactions on >> Communications) >> >> The first full TCP spec is RFC675 December 1974 >> >> v >> >> >> On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> >>> On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: >>>> Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of >>>> TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that >>>> question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in the >>>> story. >>> >>> >>> the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. >>> >>> that said, for the current exercise, i'm interested in limiting the >>> scope to the history of major tcp/ip milestones. >>> >>> by way of marking a starting point for discussion, the anecdotal summary >>> i heard a long time ago was that first discussions on internetworking >>> were held during the arpanet public demonstration, at the first iccc in >>> 1972. >>> >>> i'm not inclined to count that as a 'milestone' but would think that >>> circulation of the first tcp design would count as the beginning marker >>> for this timeline. >>> >>> but that's just my own perspective, and as i said, this is intended to >>> be a community (rough consensus) effort. >>> >>> d/ >>> >>> -- >>> Dave Crocker >>> Brandenburg InternetWorking >>> bbiw.net >>> _______ >>> internet-history mailing list >>> internet-history at postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >>> >> >> >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From vint at google.com Wed Sep 16 13:48:19 2015 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 16:48:19 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55F9CB22.1030506@gmail.com> References: <20150916121837.D310518C0E3@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1467542092.238069.1442409174195.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> <55F99B3D.20207@dcrocker.net> <55F9CB22.1030506@gmail.com> Message-ID: Pouzin's datagrams influenced my thinking as did his window-based flow control idea. v On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 4:03 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote: > Vint, how do you rate Pouzin's catenet paper (published versions are dated > 1974) in that part of the story? I was a very remote observer at that time. > > (That was during my first spell in NZ and we were trying to make some > early sort > of X.25 work between Wellington and Palmerston North, having decided that > the > ARPANET protocol was not a realistic option. We picked X.25 because it > was just > then emerging - the original plan was to copy EPSS, the British experiment > that > definitely grew out of Davies' work. The NZ Post Office wanted us to copy > whatever the British did, because that's what they did for all telecom in > those > days.) > > Regards > Brian > > On 17/09/2015 07:35, Vint Cerf wrote: > > INWG was formed in October 1972 at the ICCC meeting. > > > > By summer 1973 INWG #39 outlined ideas that eventually were refined and > > published in May 1974 (cerf/kahn article in IEEE Transactions on > > Communications) > > > > The first full TCP spec is RFC675 December 1974 > > > > v > > > > > > On Wed, Sep 16, 2015 at 12:39 PM, Dave Crocker > wrote: > > > >> On 9/16/2015 6:12 AM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > >>> Whether anything about the ARPAnet had much to do with the history of > >>> TCP/IP is a different question, but if people think the answer to that > >>> question is "yes" then probably both Baran and Davies also belong in > the > >>> story. > >> > >> > >> the history of Internet technologies is best viewed as a continuum, IMO. > >> > >> that said, for the current exercise, i'm interested in limiting the > >> scope to the history of major tcp/ip milestones. > >> > >> by way of marking a starting point for discussion, the anecdotal summary > >> i heard a long time ago was that first discussions on internetworking > >> were held during the arpanet public demonstration, at the first iccc in > >> 1972. > >> > >> i'm not inclined to count that as a 'milestone' but would think that > >> circulation of the first tcp design would count as the beginning marker > >> for this timeline. > >> > >> but that's just my own perspective, and as i said, this is intended to > >> be a community (rough consensus) effort. > >> > >> d/ > >> > >> -- > >> Dave Crocker > >> Brandenburg InternetWorking > >> bbiw.net > >> _______ > >> internet-history mailing list > >> internet-history at postel.org > >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > >> > > > > > > > > _______ > > internet-history mailing list > > internet-history at postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Andreu at Vea.cat Tue Sep 15 15:57:46 2015 From: Andreu at Vea.cat (Andreu Vea) Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2015 00:57:46 +0200 Subject: [ih] A History of Networking in Costa Rica In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Steve, this is really great, what a nice video intro and edition ! Guess what? As part of my efforts to capture "the father of the internet" in each single country -in a unique format- which I'm using since 1994 when I started up collecting and recording internet pioneers' I did interview *Guy De Teramond *on August 26 in San Jos? (Costa Rica). I'd like to share the results here, even it's still an unedited piece https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw7duMf1v9g and meets all the criteria for my candidates. PS: it was run in one of his two mother languages (Spanish) and is a full life interview that takes 2 hours. I'm sharing it here, just in case someone wants to have more visual information about this incredible *Guy* ;-) (both meanings apply :-) [image: Inline image 1] PS2: I run these series of interviews to have a normalized and digitally recorded memory of each one of the internet pioneers around the world. as it's based in a very personal effort with fundings coming from my own pocket it takes a while (more than 19 years doing it already) but I run always the same questions to all and with a regular length of a couple of hours. WiWiW (Who is Who in the internet World) a perpetual archive devoted to internet pioneers worldwide. *Andreu Ve?*, Ph.D. Digital Champion for Spain European Commission andreu at vea.cat today from sunny BARCELONA. andreu On Tue, Sep 15, 2015 at 7:48 PM, Steven G. Huter wrote: > > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdBwp-BB54I&index=1&list=PLV88ZmvwupLzbnQGdSl4ZGY8xVvQkk_3m > > Steve Huter > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: image.png Type: image/png Size: 449675 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Sep 17 10:11:04 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 13:11:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP Message-ID: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Day > The line speed was very important. Remember the ARPANET was built to be > a production network ... The Net would have worked, but in terms of > Robert's goal of a resource sharing network that would allow sharing of > major computing resources, it would have been painfully slow, and > probably deemed a failure. The 56K lines kept the perceived response > within expectations. ... Even those days, 9.6K was reasonable speed for > one person (maybe two) at a terminal doing development. Sharing that > with a few hundred with more than a few doing essentially file transfers > for RJE and you have one painfully slow network. I am less certain of this than you are. I had the experience of working for quite a while with Proteon, where the only link to the rest of the Internet was, for some time, a 4800 (or maybe it was 9600, the memory dims, alas) baud line. I don't remember it being really painful. (Admittedly, the line did have some pretty fancy header-compression on it, using an algorithm from Dave Reed. If there were more than one connection using the line, one didn't get the maximal compression, but even then you'd get some compression; e.g. the source address - for outgoing packets - was mostly, or entirely [remember, this was the era of timesharing machines, we only had one :-] the same, other fields were the same, etc.) Your point about lots and lots of users (the Proteon user community was admittedly fairly small, initially, at least - a half dozen or so) sharing a line is taken, but at the same time, there would have been a lot more lines, spreading the load. I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network built out of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked is a comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) Noel From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Thu Sep 17 11:34:47 2015 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 11:34:47 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <55FB07C7.6090505@dcrocker.net> On 9/17/2015 10:11 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network built out > of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked is a > comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! First, lots of smaller lines means a higher percentage of the bandwidth devoted to headers and control chatter. Second, bigger pipes means shorter transit time, to the end of the packet. I vaguely recall having been told that this lower 'residency' effect improved overall throughput, when comparing one big, to an equivalent aggregate of multiple smaller. I thought this was being claimed as a statistical effect, but wasn't listening closely... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dugo at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 17 13:14:20 2015 From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 22:14:20 +0200 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote: > I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network > built out > of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked > is a > comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk to the IMP simulation." From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Sep 17 13:36:01 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:36:01 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Or simply implement host-imp and the NCP. Why do you need the OS? > On Sep 17, 2015, at 16:14, Jacob Goense wrote: > > On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote: >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network >> built out >> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked >> is a >> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) > > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. > > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk > to the IMP simulation." > > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From dave.walden.family at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 13:42:16 2015 From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com (Dave Walden) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:42:16 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: See the second half of the paper at http://walden-family.com/impcode/imp-code.pdf for information on the IMP simulation that Bob Armstrong did. Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. > > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk > to the IMP simulation." > > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dave.walden.family at gmail.com Thu Sep 17 14:23:05 2015 From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com (dave.walden.family at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 17:23:05 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: As Bob Armstrong knows, the IMP code (from 1973 or there abouts) that Bob simulated was highly tuned for the actual line speeds of the net. Maybe the code knew about something less than 56KBS (I'd have to study the listing). Also the IMP knew of a maximum of 5 inter-IMP modem interfaces, and I don't think it ever used more than 4 and I think option for the 5th doesn't work (at least in the simulated version, and likely in the real code). Thus simulating lots of low speed lines might require modifying the IMP assembly code. Sent from my iPad On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Jacob Goense wrote: > On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote: >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network >> built out >> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked >> is a >> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) > > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. > > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk > to the IMP simulation." > > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From fidler at ucla.edu Thu Sep 17 15:35:34 2015 From: fidler at ucla.edu (Bradley Fidler) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 15:35:34 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: Are there other historical questions that might be answered using the IMP Guys' article (http://walden-family.com/bbn/imp-code.pdf) and method as a starting-point? Maybe with an expanded version of the IMP program simulation, if someone were interested? For example, if we knew less about the IMP software -- if what Dave wrote below wasn't widely known -- then the simulation might have been a great way to test the impact of line speeds and thus how different ideas contributed to the initial design. As another example, consider the impact of congestion on the routing algorithm. The improvements to the algorithm over time are documented in BBN reports, and in part through this documentation we also know that some of these problems were discovered as a consequence of increasing traffic and (if I recall correctly) node count. It would be great to be able to model the response of given versions of the routing algorithm to increased traffic and network size. It would require a lot of assumptions, to be sure, but there is a bit published on the distribution of hop counts, packet size, etc. of which someone could make use. More speculatively, I also wonder if there's enough complaining about congestion on extant listserv archives from the 1980s to combine it with network maps in order to generate some findings on how much traffic might have been common at the time -- and then some even more speculative (but better than nothing!) findings on user counts based on estimates of traffic per user. Perhaps we already have good congestion figures in the NIC archive at CHM, though, or somewhere else... In any case, this is just one off-the-cuff example. Can anyone think of others? This isn't to fetishize the ARPANET, but to point out one possible way to learn more about the interplay of these or other factors in the histories of networking. One advantage of modeling ARPANET things is that the findings could apply in part to the many networks that were largely ARPANET clones. Brad On 17 September 2015 at 14:23, wrote: > As Bob Armstrong knows, the IMP code (from 1973 or there abouts) that Bob > simulated was highly tuned for the actual line speeds of the net. Maybe > the code knew about something less than 56KBS (I'd have to study the > listing). Also the IMP knew of a maximum of 5 inter-IMP modem interfaces, > and I don't think it ever used more than 4 and I think option for the 5th > doesn't work (at least in the simulated version, and likely in the real > code). Thus simulating lots of low speed lines might require modifying the > IMP assembly code. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Jacob Goense wrote: > > > On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote: > >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network > >> built out > >> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked > >> is a > >> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) > > > > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. > > > > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the > > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for > > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk > > to the IMP simulation." > > > > > > > > _______ > > internet-history mailing list > > internet-history at postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vint at google.com Thu Sep 17 15:57:41 2015 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 18:57:41 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: for all practical purposes, the operation of the IMPs had little to do with the design of TCP except for the fact that TCP did not assume one message at a time regime that was part of the 1822 IMP/Host interface specification. v On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Bradley Fidler wrote: > Are there other historical questions that might be answered using the IMP > Guys' article (http://walden-family.com/bbn/imp-code.pdf) and method as a > starting-point? Maybe with an expanded version of the IMP program > simulation, if someone were interested? > > For example, if we knew less about the IMP software -- if what Dave wrote > below wasn't widely known -- then the simulation might have been a great > way to test the impact of line speeds and thus how different ideas > contributed to the initial design. > > As another example, consider the impact of congestion on the routing > algorithm. The improvements to the algorithm over time are documented in > BBN reports, and in part through this documentation we also know that some > of these problems were discovered as a consequence of increasing traffic > and (if I recall correctly) node count. It would be great to be able to > model the response of given versions of the routing algorithm to increased > traffic and network size. It would require a lot of assumptions, to be > sure, but there is a bit published on the distribution of hop counts, > packet size, etc. of which someone could make use. More speculatively, I > also wonder if there's enough complaining about congestion on extant > listserv archives from the 1980s to combine it with network maps in order > to generate some findings on how much traffic might have been common at the > time -- and then some even more speculative (but better than nothing!) > findings on user counts based on estimates of traffic per user. Perhaps we > already have good congestion figures in the NIC archive at CHM, though, or > somewhere else... In any case, this is just one off-the-cuff example. Can > anyone think of others? > > This isn't to fetishize the ARPANET, but to point out one possible way to > learn more about the interplay of these or other factors in the histories > of networking. One advantage of modeling ARPANET things is that the > findings could apply in part to the many networks that were largely ARPANET > clones. > > Brad > > > > On 17 September 2015 at 14:23, wrote: > >> As Bob Armstrong knows, the IMP code (from 1973 or there abouts) that Bob >> simulated was highly tuned for the actual line speeds of the net. Maybe >> the code knew about something less than 56KBS (I'd have to study the >> listing). Also the IMP knew of a maximum of 5 inter-IMP modem interfaces, >> and I don't think it ever used more than 4 and I think option for the 5th >> doesn't work (at least in the simulated version, and likely in the real >> code). Thus simulating lots of low speed lines might require modifying the >> IMP assembly code. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Jacob Goense wrote: >> >> > On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote: >> >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network >> >> built out >> >> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked >> >> is a >> >> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) >> > >> > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. >> > >> > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the >> > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for >> > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk >> > to the IMP simulation." >> > >> > >> > >> > _______ >> > internet-history mailing list >> > internet-history at postel.org >> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fidler at ucla.edu Thu Sep 17 16:26:28 2015 From: fidler at ucla.edu (Bradley Fidler) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 16:26:28 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: I should have clarified that for the IMP program simulation and what we might learn from it, I was largely talking about ARPANET history, including some questions posed earlier in this thread, as well as an aside about method. I think Vint's comment reminds us of the different categories of TCP / TCP/IP / vX milestones and how they implicate different things. Beyond design and specification milestones, there's other technical matters like implementations, spread, and performance; here we might be discussing a _number_ of networks. Or we might not. This gets back to one of Dave's initial questions: which milestones were seminal? Brad On 17 September 2015 at 15:57, Vint Cerf wrote: > for all practical purposes, the operation of the IMPs had little to do > with the design of TCP except for the fact that TCP did not assume one > message at a time regime that was part of the 1822 IMP/Host interface > specification. > > v > > > On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 6:35 PM, Bradley Fidler wrote: > >> Are there other historical questions that might be answered using the IMP >> Guys' article (http://walden-family.com/bbn/imp-code.pdf) and method as >> a starting-point? Maybe with an expanded version of the IMP program >> simulation, if someone were interested? >> >> For example, if we knew less about the IMP software -- if what Dave wrote >> below wasn't widely known -- then the simulation might have been a great >> way to test the impact of line speeds and thus how different ideas >> contributed to the initial design. >> >> As another example, consider the impact of congestion on the routing >> algorithm. The improvements to the algorithm over time are documented in >> BBN reports, and in part through this documentation we also know that some >> of these problems were discovered as a consequence of increasing traffic >> and (if I recall correctly) node count. It would be great to be able to >> model the response of given versions of the routing algorithm to increased >> traffic and network size. It would require a lot of assumptions, to be >> sure, but there is a bit published on the distribution of hop counts, >> packet size, etc. of which someone could make use. More speculatively, I >> also wonder if there's enough complaining about congestion on extant >> listserv archives from the 1980s to combine it with network maps in order >> to generate some findings on how much traffic might have been common at the >> time -- and then some even more speculative (but better than nothing!) >> findings on user counts based on estimates of traffic per user. Perhaps we >> already have good congestion figures in the NIC archive at CHM, though, or >> somewhere else... In any case, this is just one off-the-cuff example. Can >> anyone think of others? >> >> This isn't to fetishize the ARPANET, but to point out one possible way to >> learn more about the interplay of these or other factors in the histories >> of networking. One advantage of modeling ARPANET things is that the >> findings could apply in part to the many networks that were largely ARPANET >> clones. >> >> Brad >> >> >> >> On 17 September 2015 at 14:23, wrote: >> >>> As Bob Armstrong knows, the IMP code (from 1973 or there abouts) that >>> Bob simulated was highly tuned for the actual line speeds of the net. >>> Maybe the code knew about something less than 56KBS (I'd have to study the >>> listing). Also the IMP knew of a maximum of 5 inter-IMP modem interfaces, >>> and I don't think it ever used more than 4 and I think option for the 5th >>> doesn't work (at least in the simulated version, and likely in the real >>> code). Thus simulating lots of low speed lines might require modifying the >>> IMP assembly code. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Jacob Goense wrote: >>> >>> > On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu wrote: >>> >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network >>> >> built out >>> >> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have >>> worked >>> >> is a >>> >> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! >>> ;-) >>> > >>> > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob Armstrong.. >>> > >>> > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the >>> > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for >>> > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to talk >>> > to the IMP simulation." >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > _______ >>> > internet-history mailing list >>> > internet-history at postel.org >>> > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >>> >>> _______ >>> internet-history mailing list >>> internet-history at postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >>> >> >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dugo at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 17 16:52:45 2015 From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 01:52:45 +0200 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <68dfeb4569fd15fa2c47033526ef52d2@xs4all.nl> On 2015-09-17 22:36, John Day wrote: > Or simply implement host-imp and the NCP. > > Why do you need the OS? The quote came from a simh commit message. I took it to mean you would need some reference drivers (eg. BSD) to develop the host end of the 1822 (eg. DEC IMP-11A or ACC LH/DH) in the corresponding emulator (eg. PDP11). I doubt the IMP cares if you are going to blast NCP or IP/TCP over it once that's done. From jack at 3kitty.org Thu Sep 17 19:22:37 2015 From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 19:22:37 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <55FB756D.7060204@3kitty.org> Just to clarify... The simulation (simh) simulates the Honeywell 316 computer and the hardware add-ons designed by BBN which were needed to use that computer as an IMP. The software that runs on that simulation today is the actual software from the early 70s, obtained by tediously typing in the assembly language source code using an early-70s paper listing as the source. So it's simulated IMP/Honeywell hardware (running on whatever hardware you use to run simh), running actual historical IMP software. If it's of historical interest to anyone, as part of some recent (2013) consulting work on a patent issue, I did a very detailed analysis of some parts of that IMP software/hardware, detailing instruction-by-instruction how it operated to perform certain functions, such as the "reload from neighbor". That 1970s IMP was quite an impressive piece of code, using every trick you could imagine to wring the necessary performance out of limited hardware. Not easy to figure out how it did what it did, even though I knew what it did! There are *lots* of timing relationships in that code, which is largely what we would call "interrupt handlers". It includes implicit assumptions about how long it would take for certain things to happen, so that the software was ready when the hardware finished some task and vice versa. So simply speeding things up to see how it behaved with higher speeds of lines, processors, I/O operations, etc. won't be trivial. That analysis I did is contained in an "expert report" that was submitted to the Court as part of litigation. I *think* that means it is accessible to the public -- if you know how to go about getting such things (I don't). I actually don't have a copy of that report myself, since the lawyers submitted the final fully formatted product electronically to the court. But if any historical researcher knows how to retrieve court documents and is interested, here's the reference: Expert Report of John Haverty in the matter of Pegasus Development Corporation and Personalized Media Communications, LLC v. DIRECTV, LLC, Hughes Electronics Corporation, Technicolor USA, Inc., and Philips Electronics North America Corporation UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE Civil Action No. 00-1020 (GMS) Report Date: June 20, 2013 There's a lot of other stuff in there, but a good chunk of the report involves the IMP and how it operated, as defined by that old printer listing. I only analyzed several small parts of the IMP code, which took many hours. But with the listing and other historical documentation anyone could figure out how other parts of the code functioned too. Well, maybe not any one, .... but it might make an interesting task for a final exam in some computer curriculum. Enjoy, /Jack PS - I'll get back to the specific topic of TCP/IP in another message... On 09/17/2015 03:35 PM, Bradley Fidler wrote: > Are there other historical questions that might be answered using the > IMP Guys' article (http://walden-family.com/bbn/imp-code.pdf) and method > as a starting-point? Maybe with an expanded version of the IMP program > simulation, if someone were interested? > > For example, if we knew less about the IMP software -- if what Dave > wrote below wasn't widely known -- then the simulation might have been a > great way to test the impact of line speeds and thus how different ideas > contributed to the initial design. > > As another example, consider the impact of congestion on the routing > algorithm. The improvements to the algorithm over time are documented > in BBN reports, and in part through this documentation we also know that > some of these problems were discovered as a consequence of increasing > traffic and (if I recall correctly) node count. It would be great to be > able to model the response of given versions of the routing algorithm to > increased traffic and network size. It would require a lot of > assumptions, to be sure, but there is a bit published on the > distribution of hop counts, packet size, etc. of which someone could > make use. More speculatively, I also wonder if there's enough > complaining about congestion on extant listserv archives from the 1980s > to combine it with network maps in order to generate some findings on > how much traffic might have been common at the time -- and then some > even more speculative (but better than nothing!) findings on user counts > based on estimates of traffic per user. Perhaps we already have good > congestion figures in the NIC archive at CHM, though, or somewhere > else... In any case, this is just one off-the-cuff example. Can anyone > think of others? > > This isn't to fetishize the ARPANET, but to point out one possible way > to learn more about the interplay of these or other factors in the > histories of networking. One advantage of modeling ARPANET things is > that the findings could apply in part to the many networks that were > largely ARPANET clones. > > Brad > > > > On 17 September 2015 at 14:23, > wrote: > > As Bob Armstrong knows, the IMP code (from 1973 or there abouts) > that Bob simulated was highly tuned for the actual line speeds of > the net. Maybe the code knew about something less than 56KBS (I'd > have to study the listing). Also the IMP knew of a maximum of 5 > inter-IMP modem interfaces, and I don't think it ever used more than > 4 and I think option for the 5th doesn't work (at least in the > simulated version, and likely in the real code). Thus simulating > lots of low speed lines might require modifying the IMP assembly code. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Jacob Goense > wrote: > > > On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > wrote: > >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network > >> built out > >> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have > worked > >> is a > >> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of > course! ;-) > > > > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob > Armstrong.. > > > > "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the > > 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for > > an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to > talk > > to the IMP simulation." > > > > > > > > _______ > > internet-history mailing list > > internet-history at postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > Contact list-owner at postel.org for > assistance. > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for > assistance. > > > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Sep 17 19:23:54 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 22:23:54 -0400 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <88BD4121-6FC7-4AB6-BB8D-3FB6B343FF0A@comcast.net> That would sort of depend on how much your site was relying on the Net for its work. On any given day in the early-mid 70s, we would have anywhere from 20 - 30 people on the Net working (the terminals would have been in the building and running at 9600). Of course, if you were working from home which several of us did mainly evenings. Dial-up was slower. Most were developing code (editing remotely, no local file system) or related tasks. Several times a day we would download code files to test. Others were submitting big compute jobs at either CCN or Rutherford and either doing sizable print jobs or generating large files for Calcomp plotters. In addition, we had users of a land-use management systems that used multiple databases on the net and displayed it as shaded maps on the LSI-11 based terminals that had plasma screens and touch. I remember early on when we were transitioning we had a slow line (perhaps it was 4800, might have been slower) just for submitting jobs and downloading code files. It was very tedious. Without the 56K lines, I think that would have been very painful. As it was, the pain was more how slow the hosts were rather than how slow the Net was. Which was probably what was important: that the hosts were more a bottleneck than the network. Not that one would saturate the lines. That seldom happened. But slow lines with character echoes would have been very painful. It wasn?t great as it was. Take care, John > On Sep 17, 2015, at 13:11, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: John Day > >> The line speed was very important. Remember the ARPANET was built to be >> a production network ... The Net would have worked, but in terms of >> Robert's goal of a resource sharing network that would allow sharing of >> major computing resources, it would have been painfully slow, and >> probably deemed a failure. The 56K lines kept the perceived response >> within expectations. ... Even those days, 9.6K was reasonable speed for >> one person (maybe two) at a terminal doing development. Sharing that >> with a few hundred with more than a few doing essentially file transfers >> for RJE and you have one painfully slow network. > > I am less certain of this than you are. I had the experience of working for > quite a while with Proteon, where the only link to the rest of the Internet > was, for some time, a 4800 (or maybe it was 9600, the memory dims, alas) baud > line. I don't remember it being really painful. > > (Admittedly, the line did have some pretty fancy header-compression on it, > using an algorithm from Dave Reed. If there were more than one connection > using the line, one didn't get the maximal compression, but even then you'd > get some compression; e.g. the source address - for outgoing packets - was > mostly, or entirely [remember, this was the era of timesharing machines, we > only had one :-] the same, other fields were the same, etc.) > > Your point about lots and lots of users (the Proteon user community was > admittedly fairly small, initially, at least - a half dozen or so) sharing a > line is taken, but at the same time, there would have been a lot more lines, > spreading the load. > > I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network built out > of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have worked is a > comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of course! ;-) > > Noel From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Thu Sep 17 20:38:11 2015 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 17 Sep 2015 20:38:11 -0700 Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <55FB8723.1050503@dcrocker.net> > I think Vint's comment reminds us of the different categories of TCP / > TCP/IP / vX milestones ... >> for all practical purposes, the operation of the IMPs had little to >> do with the design of TCP If the exercise about milestones specifically for TCP/IP is to be meaningful, then it needs to be about TCP/IP and not about preceding technologies or independent efforts. Besides not covering IMP work, it doesn't cover the OSI TP* work, unless someone can claim and convince that it was essential to the TCP/IP track. The issue isn't that such other efforts were not not important; of course they were. The issue is focus. d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From dave.walden.family at gmail.com Fri Sep 18 04:25:24 2015 From: dave.walden.family at gmail.com (dave.walden.family at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2015 07:25:24 -0400 Subject: [ih] IMP simulation In-Reply-To: <55FB756D.7060204@3kitty.org> References: <20150917171104.2508818C128@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5caf7601d65267b9bd6b9bb47e83db3e@xs4all.nl> <55FB756D.7060204@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <0305ACB1-04A8-47D2-9DAA-58D8A976AE38@gmail.com> Bob Armstrong was running the IMP simulation on a Linux machine, I think. I ran it on my Win 7 PC. Jack mentions tricks for performance. There was also complexity (tricks) in the 316 IMP software to reconfigure itself to the particular mix of line speeds and host/modem combinations of the hardware it was running on. The assembly language software listings are on the net; see the paper I referenced yesterday for the URLs, as is quite a lot of documentation. Jack mentioned typing the assembly language source code from a listing scan; that listing also had the octal object code which is what Bob used for his simulation, at leasr originally. To confirm that, the original source code scan was also OCRed and assembled to produce the same octal object code. If you haven't read the second part of that paper (the resurrection part), I encourage you to do so. It's a pretty interesting example of "retro computing," albeit not really so relevant to the milestones question at hand. Sent from my iPad On Sep 17, 2015, at 10:22 PM, Jack Haverty wrote: > Just to clarify... The simulation (simh) simulates the Honeywell 316 > computer and the hardware add-ons designed by BBN which were needed to > use that computer as an IMP. The software that runs on that simulation > today is the actual software from the early 70s, obtained by tediously > typing in the assembly language source code using an early-70s paper > listing as the source. So it's simulated IMP/Honeywell hardware > (running on whatever hardware you use to run simh), running actual > historical IMP software. > > If it's of historical interest to anyone, as part of some recent (2013) > consulting work on a patent issue, I did a very detailed analysis of > some parts of that IMP software/hardware, detailing > instruction-by-instruction how it operated to perform certain functions, > such as the "reload from neighbor". > > That 1970s IMP was quite an impressive piece of code, using every trick > you could imagine to wring the necessary performance out of limited > hardware. Not easy to figure out how it did what it did, even though I > knew what it did! > > There are *lots* of timing relationships in that code, which is largely > what we would call "interrupt handlers". It includes implicit > assumptions about how long it would take for certain things to happen, > so that the software was ready when the hardware finished some task and > vice versa. So simply speeding things up to see how it behaved with > higher speeds of lines, processors, I/O operations, etc. won't be trivial. > > That analysis I did is contained in an "expert report" that was > submitted to the Court as part of litigation. I *think* that means it > is accessible to the public -- if you know how to go about getting such > things (I don't). > > I actually don't have a copy of that report myself, since the lawyers > submitted the final fully formatted product electronically to the court. > > But if any historical researcher knows how to retrieve court documents > and is interested, here's the reference: > > Expert Report of John Haverty > in the matter of > Pegasus Development Corporation and Personalized Media Communications, > LLC > v. > DIRECTV, LLC, Hughes Electronics Corporation, Technicolor USA, Inc., and > Philips Electronics North America Corporation > UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT > FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE > Civil Action No. 00-1020 (GMS) > Report Date: June 20, 2013 > > There's a lot of other stuff in there, but a good chunk of the report > involves the IMP and how it operated, as defined by that old printer > listing. I only analyzed several small parts of the IMP code, which > took many hours. But with the listing and other historical > documentation anyone could figure out how other parts of the code > functioned too. Well, maybe not any one, .... but it might make an > interesting task for a final exam in some computer curriculum. > > Enjoy, > /Jack > > PS - I'll get back to the specific topic of TCP/IP in another message... > > > On 09/17/2015 03:35 PM, Bradley Fidler wrote: >> Are there other historical questions that might be answered using the >> IMP Guys' article (http://walden-family.com/bbn/imp-code.pdf) and method >> as a starting-point? Maybe with an expanded version of the IMP program >> simulation, if someone were interested? >> >> For example, if we knew less about the IMP software -- if what Dave >> wrote below wasn't widely known -- then the simulation might have been a >> great way to test the impact of line speeds and thus how different ideas >> contributed to the initial design. >> >> As another example, consider the impact of congestion on the routing >> algorithm. The improvements to the algorithm over time are documented >> in BBN reports, and in part through this documentation we also know that >> some of these problems were discovered as a consequence of increasing >> traffic and (if I recall correctly) node count. It would be great to be >> able to model the response of given versions of the routing algorithm to >> increased traffic and network size. It would require a lot of >> assumptions, to be sure, but there is a bit published on the >> distribution of hop counts, packet size, etc. of which someone could >> make use. More speculatively, I also wonder if there's enough >> complaining about congestion on extant listserv archives from the 1980s >> to combine it with network maps in order to generate some findings on >> how much traffic might have been common at the time -- and then some >> even more speculative (but better than nothing!) findings on user counts >> based on estimates of traffic per user. Perhaps we already have good >> congestion figures in the NIC archive at CHM, though, or somewhere >> else... In any case, this is just one off-the-cuff example. Can anyone >> think of others? >> >> This isn't to fetishize the ARPANET, but to point out one possible way >> to learn more about the interplay of these or other factors in the >> histories of networking. One advantage of modeling ARPANET things is >> that the findings could apply in part to the many networks that were >> largely ARPANET clones. >> >> Brad >> >> >> >> On 17 September 2015 at 14:23, > > wrote: >> >> As Bob Armstrong knows, the IMP code (from 1973 or there abouts) >> that Bob simulated was highly tuned for the actual line speeds of >> the net. Maybe the code knew about something less than 56KBS (I'd >> have to study the listing). Also the IMP knew of a maximum of 5 >> inter-IMP modem interfaces, and I don't think it ever used more than >> 4 and I think option for the 5th doesn't work (at least in the >> simulated version, and likely in the real code). Thus simulating >> lots of low speed lines might require modifying the IMP assembly code. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Sep 17, 2015, at 4:14 PM, Jacob Goense > > wrote: >> >>> On 2015-09-17 19:11, jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> wrote: >>>> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network >>>> built out >>>> of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would have >> worked >>>> is a >>>> comprehensive simulation. Which is not likely to happen, of >> course! ;-) >>> >>> Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. According to Bob >> Armstrong.. >>> >>> "The hooks are in there to allow simh to support the IMP side of the >>> 1822 host interface, and the next step would be to recover the OS for >>> an ARPAnet era host and then extend the corresponding simulator to >> talk >>> to the IMP simulation." >>> >>> >>> >>> _______ >>> internet-history mailing list >>> internet-history at postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for >> assistance. >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for >> assistance. >> >> >> >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Sep 19 07:24:11 2015 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 10:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [ih] Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP Message-ID: <20150919142411.9268F18C138@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dave Crocker > lots of smaller lines means a higher percentage of the bandwidth > devoted to headers and control chatter. Sorry, I don't understand the mechanism there, for more/larger headers? Can you elaborate? (The control chatter, perhaps - I can definitely see more routing traffic, not sure about flow control.) > From: Jacob Goense >> I suspect the only way to say with any certainty how well a network >> built out of lots of slow lines, as opposed to a few fast ones, would >> have worked is a comprehensive simulation. > Well, there is an ARPAnet IMP in simh now. Well, for the routing alone, it's a lot more complicated than that. The routing is a distributed non-terminating computation, and the question is how long it takes to stabilize after a perturbation. In the ARPANET, perturbations weren't just link/node up-down events, but also link delay changes (based on load), i.e. the inter-perturbation time was small. (Clearly, if Tstabilize is > Tperturb, the routing will be unstable.) To _accurately_ simulate it, one would have to accurately simulate i) line _delays_ (i.e. node-node transmission times), ii) line _speeds_ (to correctly model the rate at which updates could be sent), and iii) the computation speed of the IMP itself (as to how fast the algorithm ran, in real time). This latter is non-trivial - I do a fair amount of work with PDP-11 simulations, and the simulator I use (Ersatz-11) is about 20 times as fast as the faster real -11 ever - and that's on a relatively elderly Athlon chip! Noel From johnl at iecc.com Mon Sep 21 16:31:30 2015 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 21 Sep 2015 23:31:30 -0000 Subject: [ih] court documents, was Significant milestones in the history of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <55FB756D.7060204@3kitty.org> Message-ID: <20150921233130.20714.qmail@ary.lan> >But if any historical researcher knows how to retrieve court documents >and is interested, here's the reference: > >Expert Report of John Haverty in the matter of >Pegasus Development Corporation and Personalized Media Communications, >LLC >v. >DIRECTV, LLC, Hughes Electronics Corporation, Technicolor USA, Inc., and >Philips Electronics North America Corporation >UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT >FOR THE DISTRICT OF DELAWARE >Civil Action No. 00-1020 (GMS) >Report Date: June 20, 2013 Public documents are filed in a system called PACER. I took a look, and although there are 764 documents in the case, none of them are your report. That's fairly typical in cases like this. Since the experts have looked at the defendant's proprietary material, the report is filed under seal. This case was settled, so there was never any reason to unseal it. R's, John From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Mon Sep 21 16:52:34 2015 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:52:34 +1200 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? Message-ID: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> I was just touching up my stock talk on the history of the Internet, and I noticed a node on the 1977 ARPANET map called "NSA" (a PDP-11) with links to SDAC and NBS. Does anybody happen to know (and is allowed to write) what they did with it? (afaik, the existence of the NSA was made public in ~1975.) Regards Brian Carpenter From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 21 17:15:38 2015 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 00:15:38 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1169597406.944146.1442880938758.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Brian, Yes, it was the National Security Agency.? As far as I know they were just gaining experience with the new technology.? In the second quarter of 1973, BBN undertook a study of ?techniques for transmitting private data through the ARPA Network? and proposed developing a ?Private Line Interface? (PLI) to let ?simple-minded? systems use the ARPAnet ?in lieu of a point-to-point communication circuit.? The PLI design also allowed use of crypto equipment for classified traffic. [BBN Report 2580, pp 10-13].? I think this was the beginning of NSA involvement with ARPAnet, and the NSA node may have been related to the PLI project.? You could look at http://xbbn.weebly.com/bbn-internet-engineering-timeline.html for other engineering milestones related to the PLI project.? Others on the list may have more specific knowledge of NSA involvement with ARPAnet. Cheers,Alex From: Brian E Carpenter To: internet-history at postel.org Sent: Monday, September 21, 2015 7:52 PM Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? I was just touching up my stock talk on the history of the Internet, and I noticed a node on the 1977 ARPANET map called "NSA" (a PDP-11) with links to SDAC and NBS. Does anybody happen to know (and is allowed to write) what they did with it? (afaik, the existence of the NSA was made public in ~1975.) Regards ? Brian Carpenter _______ internet-history mailing list internet-history at postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louie at transsys.com Tue Sep 22 02:24:22 2015 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 05:24:22 -0400 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> Message-ID: For a period of time, the University of Maryland had a MILNET connection via the IMP/PSN at the NSA. As I recall, it used ECU devices at each end to connect the LH/DH-11 1822 Interface in the VAX 11/780 to the 56k DDS line. I'm not sure what MILNET related research contract the CS department had which precipitated the MILNET connection, though I don't recall any PLI discussion. Later, UMD also had an APRANET PSN on site related to the NSFNET project to interconnect the those two networks. Louis Mamakos On September 21, 2015 7:52:34 PM EDT, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >I was just touching up my stock talk on the history of the >Internet, and I noticed a node on the 1977 ARPANET map called >"NSA" (a PDP-11) with links to SDAC and NBS. > >Does anybody happen to know (and is allowed to write) what >they did with it? > >(afaik, the existence of the NSA was made public in ~1975.) > >Regards > Brian Carpenter > > >_______ >internet-history mailing list >internet-history at postel.org >http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From craig at aland.bbn.com Tue Sep 22 04:02:30 2015 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 07:02:30 -0400 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> Hi Brian: My guess, purely a guess, is this was in the NSA research group. For a number of years, NSA had an excellent data comms research group (may still) focused on how to meet NSA's data comms requirements (think moving around all the data it collected in a secure fashion -- *not* how to hack systems). Some of that research group had ARPANET/Internet access and participated in Internet standards work in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. Thanks! Craig Brian E Carpenter writes: > I was just touching up my stock talk on the history of the > Internet, and I noticed a node on the 1977 ARPANET map called > "NSA" (a PDP-11) with links to SDAC and NBS. > > Does anybody happen to know (and is allowed to write) what > they did with it? > > (afaik, the existence of the NSA was made public in ~1975.) > > Regards > Brian Carpenter From vint at google.com Tue Sep 22 04:43:48 2015 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 07:43:48 -0400 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: Craig is right - the R group had the link and worked closely with me on packet cryptography as did BBN. vint On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Craig Partridge wrote: > > Hi Brian: > > My guess, purely a guess, is this was in the NSA research group. For a > number > of years, NSA had an excellent data comms research group (may still) > focused > on how to meet NSA's data comms requirements (think moving around all the > data it collected in a secure fashion -- *not* how to hack systems). Some > of that research group had ARPANET/Internet access and participated in > Internet standards work in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. > > Thanks! > > Craig > > Brian E Carpenter writes: > > I was just touching up my stock talk on the history of the > > Internet, and I noticed a node on the 1977 ARPANET map called > > "NSA" (a PDP-11) with links to SDAC and NBS. > > > > Does anybody happen to know (and is allowed to write) what > > they did with it? > > > > (afaik, the existence of the NSA was made public in ~1975.) > > > > Regards > > Brian Carpenter > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbelin at dbelin.net Tue Sep 22 08:15:08 2015 From: dbelin at dbelin.net (Belin, Daniel) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 11:15:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: Van Atta's *DARPA Technical Accomplishments *actually makes mention of this, and notes it as a factor in DCA's willingness to take over management of ARPAnet. To quote: "The mission of DCA was to provide communications for the military, and it was, at first, reluctant to operate a research network such as ARPANET which also involved non-military users, and which had, at the time, no provisions for security. However, within DCA no one in authority voiced major objections to taking over responsibility for ARPANET. There were, also, several other factors affecting DCA's actions regarding ARPANET: [...] (2) ARPA, in order to be able to share classfied data over the network, undertook to develop, with NSA, a "private line interface" (PLI) device allowing end-to-end ARPANET encryption[.]" (from Volume I, pages 20-8 and 20-9) Cordially, Dan *_______________________________________* +1(703) 209-9608 | @dfbelin | danielbel.in On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 7:43 AM, Vint Cerf wrote: > Craig is right - the R group had the link and worked closely with me on > packet cryptography as did BBN. > > vint > > > On Tue, Sep 22, 2015 at 7:02 AM, Craig Partridge > wrote: > >> >> Hi Brian: >> >> My guess, purely a guess, is this was in the NSA research group. For a >> number >> of years, NSA had an excellent data comms research group (may still) >> focused >> on how to meet NSA's data comms requirements (think moving around all the >> data it collected in a secure fashion -- *not* how to hack systems). Some >> of that research group had ARPANET/Internet access and participated in >> Internet standards work in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Craig >> >> Brian E Carpenter writes: >> > I was just touching up my stock talk on the history of the >> > Internet, and I noticed a node on the 1977 ARPANET map called >> > "NSA" (a PDP-11) with links to SDAC and NBS. >> > >> > Does anybody happen to know (and is allowed to write) what >> > they did with it? >> > >> > (afaik, the existence of the NSA was made public in ~1975.) >> > >> > Regards >> > Brian Carpenter >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dugo at xs4all.nl Tue Sep 22 12:15:52 2015 From: dugo at xs4all.nl (Jacob Goense) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 21:15:52 +0200 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: <1894946d614161c20964fc5143d67d92@xs4all.nl> On 2015-09-22 13:02, Craig Partridge wrote: > My guess, purely a guess, is this was in the NSA research group. For a > number > of years, NSA had an excellent data comms research group (may still) > focused > on how to meet NSA's data comms requirements (think moving around all > the > data it collected in a secure fashion -- *not* how to hack systems). > Some > of that research group had ARPANET/Internet access and participated in > Internet standards work in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. That would explain the link to the east (NBS). The west link (SDAC) was probably a genuine interest in seismic data. Ears on the ground. See eg. page 14 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a020480.pdf From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 22 12:59:30 2015 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 19:59:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: <1894946d614161c20964fc5143d67d92@xs4all.nl> References: <1894946d614161c20964fc5143d67d92@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <233088968.1351811.1442951970779.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> The links in the ARPAnet were not related to traffic flow or shared interests.? No conclusion about interests based on network topology can be drawn.? ARPA hired Network Analysis Corporation to design the network topology based on factors such as circuit costs and the provision of alternate paths between IMPs for reliability against single failures.? I do not believe NSA was especially interested in interacting with either NBS or SDAC, but whether they were or not cannot be deduced from the topology of IMPs and circuits. Cheers,Alex McKenzie From: Jacob Goense To: internet-history at postel.org Sent: Tuesday, September 22, 2015 3:15 PM Subject: Re: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? On 2015-09-22 13:02, Craig Partridge wrote: > My guess, purely a guess, is this was in the NSA research group.? For a > number > of years, NSA had an excellent data comms research group (may still) > focused > on how to meet NSA's data comms requirements (think moving around all > the > data it collected in a secure fashion -- *not* how to hack systems).? > Some > of that research group had ARPANET/Internet access and participated in > Internet standards work in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. That would explain the link to the east (NBS). The west link (SDAC) was probably a genuine interest in seismic data. Ears on the ground. See eg. page 14 http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a020480.pdf _______ internet-history mailing list internet-history at postel.org http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Tue Sep 22 13:02:09 2015 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 08:02:09 +1200 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? In-Reply-To: References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com> <20150922110230.1F98D421F26@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: <5601B3C1.5030507@gmail.com> Thanks for all the replies. Another tiny fascinating quantum of history. Brian From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Tue Sep 22 13:55:19 2015 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Tue, 22 Sep 2015 16:55:19 -0400 Subject: [ih] Eyes on the Internet? References: <56009842.1070000@gmail.com>, , <5601B3C1.5030507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5601C037.20365.169F618@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> I'll add one little thing that has nothing to do with the original question [big help I am]. I worked on the PLI. I got my clearance level bumped up and attended a meeting or two at the NSA. The thing was to use a *real* military KG and all of the data was to be encrypted by have a wall between two "halves" of the IMP with the KG between them. The problem, of course, is that the destination had to be passed in the clear. That caused a HUGE problem for NSA: the prospect of the hot side of the IMP having a backdoor to pass data [even if only a little] to the secured side gave them *fits*. It took a bit of fancy dancing and hand waving [and I suspect pressure from Larry Roberts] to get them to agree. Of course, I had to clear the code and make sure it really couldn't be used as a real backchannel... but we did get it done. I remember in one meeting where we were planning to deploy it: NSA said "no". Larry said that it was *HIS* data and if they wouldn't approve he'd just declassify it. They caved, and the PLI came into being. Alas, I don't know anything about the NSA IMP. /Bernie\ -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From larrysheldon at cox.net Wed Sep 23 19:27:19 2015 From: larrysheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2015 21:27:19 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History Message-ID: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> Been a while since I have asked a completely off-the-wall question?if this is another one, let it quietly die uncommented-upon, since it is not about ?Internet History?. But I do find it interesting in that context because it appears, in a way, to be an example of fiction predicts (or drives?) fact. In 1977 there was a book titled ?The Adolescence of P-1? (Thomas Joseph Ryan) about a guy that wrote a program (?The System?) that Wikipedia calls a ?virus? but I think of as a Morris-class ?worm? that takes of all of the computers in the world (all 18 of them?). At the time, I thought ?this is too far-fetched? and ?I know quite a lot of about one main-frame operating system (Exec 8) and that would not be possible? and assumed the other two or three main-frame operating systems would be similarly resistant. But the ?networking? (had the term been invented yet) then seemed reasonable. But the big attack on believability was in the dependence of the plot on armies of system administrators that never cross-checked anything, that mindlessly approved bills for payment; that left doors unlocked and open?surely no computer center existed with such lax controls. But the part about the book that intrigues me most is the crude primitive nature of the networking described along with the recognition that I was a part of systems that used those very communications methods and thought they (1.3 megabit dial-ups and stuff) were surely as good as it was going to get. So. Finally, we get to my question. While I know that there is lots of television comedy material poking hard-earned ridicule at kids cracking computers, has anybody looked in a scholarly way at fiction-that-becomes-fact in the world of networked computers? -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal) From bill.n1vux at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 08:56:09 2015 From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:56:09 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Larry Sheldon wrote: > > Fiction->History > ?There are two sorts of SciFi (aside from the Fantastic) - those that aren't facts yet? ?but likely will be if we persevere, and ?those that could be facts if we screw things up even worse. Those writing near-term SF are well advised to leverage William Gibson's aphorism "The future is already here - it's just not evenly distributed" to sniff out what is in the labs and the pockets of the early adopters. > ? > In 1977 there was a book titled ?The Adolescence of P-1? (Thomas Joseph > Ryan) > I thought I remembered this was either serialized or first appeared as a novella in one of the magazines before release as a book, but Google finds no proof of that? Odd. There was a flurry of pre-cyber-punk AI / rogue-programmer stories in Analog in the late 70's, i recall one featured a female hacker but i forget the title, and that it was the month before or after P-1 so it seemed a trend. ? There are plenty of listicles that catalog SciFi stories/concepts/widgets that became reality -- partly through invention of the engineering fact being easier after invention of the idea as fiction, as testified to by the inventor of Cellphones being inspired by Kirk's (Roddenbery's) communicator -- but has this been treated in the full academic style as literature-and-society or history of science? I don't know. ?I am remiss in not surveying academic treatment of ? SciFi as LitCrit in between Padlipsky's thesis (latterly of MULTICS and this I-H list) and Gannon's [1] /Rumors of War/ [2] and Pournelle's SIGMA [3], which respectively study and practice influence of SF on military and government policy. If there isn't yet an academic study of the influence of P-1 and the following Cyber-punk movement on Silicon valley et al in any/all aspects (network, OS, application, User interface), it's due, it's ripe. If we don't get an answer on this list, i can ask Chuck Gannon and network through my other SF&F friends to see who if anyone is working such. ?(I do highly recommend /Rumors of War/, particularly if you admired MAP's literary writing style as i do and are interested in social impact of early English-language SciFi on the military.) ? ?[1]? http://www.charlesegannon.com/BioTop.html [2] http://isbn.nu/9780742540354 [3] ? http://www.onthemedia.org/story/129496-science-fiction-in-the-national-interest/transcript/ ? -- Bill Ricker bill.n1vux at gmail.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Thu Sep 24 09:56:53 2015 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 12:56:53 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> Message-ID: <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> A few more obvious ones comes to mind: "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" "Colossus: The Forbin Project" - and lots of variants on that theme (up to, and including, the Terminator movies -- and what with automatically swarming drones now a reality, somehow Skynet seems to loom on the near horizon!) "Shockwave Rider" - which seemed to get an awful lot of things right, for its time Miles Fidelman Bill Ricker wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Larry Sheldon > wrote: > > > Fiction->History > > ?There are two sorts of SciFi (aside from the Fantastic) - those that > aren't facts yet? > ?but likely will be if we persevere, and ?those that could be facts if > we screw things up even worse. Those writing near-term SF are well > advised to leverage William Gibson's aphorism "The future is already > here - it's just not evenly distributed" to sniff out what is in the > labs and the pockets of the early adopters. > > ? > In 1977 there was a book titled ?The Adolescence of P-1? (Thomas > Joseph > Ryan) > > > I thought I remembered this was either serialized or first appeared as > a novella in one of the magazines before release as a book, but Google > finds no proof of that? Odd. > There was a flurry of pre-cyber-punk AI / rogue-programmer stories > in Analog in the late 70's, i recall one featured a female hacker but > i forget the title, and that it was the month before or after P-1 so > it seemed a trend. ? > > There are plenty of listicles that catalog SciFi > stories/concepts/widgets that became reality -- partly through > invention of the engineering fact being easier after invention of the > idea as fiction, as testified to by the inventor of Cellphones being > inspired by Kirk's (Roddenbery's) communicator -- but has this been > treated in the full academic style as literature-and-society or > history of science? I don't know. ?I am remiss in not surveying > academic treatment of ? SciFi as LitCrit in between Padlipsky's thesis > (latterly of MULTICS and this I-H list) and Gannon's [1] /Rumors of > War/ [2] and Pournelle's SIGMA [3], which respectively study and > practice influence of SF on military and government policy. > If there isn't yet an academic study of the influence of P-1 and > the following Cyber-punk movement on Silicon valley et al in any/all > aspects (network, OS, application, User interface), it's due, it's ripe. > If we don't get an answer on this list, i can ask Chuck Gannon and > network through my other SF&F friends to see who if anyone is working > such. > > ? (I do highly recommend /Rumors of War/, particularly if you admired > MAP's literary writing style as i do and are interested in social > impact of early English-language SciFi on the military.) ? > > ? [1]? http://www.charlesegannon.com/BioTop.html > [2] http://isbn.nu/9780742540354 > [3] ? > http://www.onthemedia.org/story/129496-science-fiction-in-the-national-interest/transcript/ > ? > > -- > Bill Ricker > bill.n1vux at gmail.com > https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Sep 24 10:41:06 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 13:41:06 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. > On Sep 24, 2015, at 12:56, Miles Fidelman wrote: > > A few more obvious ones comes to mind: > > "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" > > "Colossus: The Forbin Project" - and lots of variants on that theme (up > to, and including, the Terminator movies -- and what with automatically > swarming drones now a reality, somehow Skynet seems to loom on the near > horizon!) > > "Shockwave Rider" - which seemed to get an awful lot of things right, > for its time > > Miles Fidelman > > Bill Ricker wrote: >> >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Larry Sheldon > > wrote: >> >> >> Fiction->History >> >> ?There are two sorts of SciFi (aside from the Fantastic) - those that >> aren't facts yet? >> ?but likely will be if we persevere, and ?those that could be facts if >> we screw things up even worse. Those writing near-term SF are well >> advised to leverage William Gibson's aphorism "The future is already >> here - it's just not evenly distributed" to sniff out what is in the >> labs and the pockets of the early adopters. >> >> ? >> In 1977 there was a book titled ?The Adolescence of P-1? (Thomas >> Joseph >> Ryan) >> >> >> I thought I remembered this was either serialized or first appeared as >> a novella in one of the magazines before release as a book, but Google >> finds no proof of that? Odd. >> There was a flurry of pre-cyber-punk AI / rogue-programmer stories >> in Analog in the late 70's, i recall one featured a female hacker but >> i forget the title, and that it was the month before or after P-1 so >> it seemed a trend. ? >> >> There are plenty of listicles that catalog SciFi >> stories/concepts/widgets that became reality -- partly through >> invention of the engineering fact being easier after invention of the >> idea as fiction, as testified to by the inventor of Cellphones being >> inspired by Kirk's (Roddenbery's) communicator -- but has this been >> treated in the full academic style as literature-and-society or >> history of science? I don't know. ?I am remiss in not surveying >> academic treatment of ? SciFi as LitCrit in between Padlipsky's thesis >> (latterly of MULTICS and this I-H list) and Gannon's [1] /Rumors of >> War/ [2] and Pournelle's SIGMA [3], which respectively study and >> practice influence of SF on military and government policy. >> If there isn't yet an academic study of the influence of P-1 and >> the following Cyber-punk movement on Silicon valley et al in any/all >> aspects (network, OS, application, User interface), it's due, it's ripe. >> If we don't get an answer on this list, i can ask Chuck Gannon and >> network through my other SF&F friends to see who if anyone is working >> such. >> >> ? (I do highly recommend /Rumors of War/, particularly if you admired >> MAP's literary writing style as i do and are interested in social >> impact of early English-language SciFi on the military.) ? >> >> ? [1]? http://www.charlesegannon.com/BioTop.html >> [2] http://isbn.nu/9780742540354 >> [3] ? >> http://www.onthemedia.org/story/129496-science-fiction-in-the-national-interest/transcript/ >> ? >> >> -- >> Bill Ricker >> bill.n1vux at gmail.com >> https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux >> >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From craig at aland.bbn.com Thu Sep 24 11:03:08 2015 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:03:08 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> > On Sep 24, 2015, at 1:41 PM, John Day wrote: > > "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. > If you said said ?future predicting? by sci-fi authors, I?d agree. But my experience with researchers is that that experienced ones do a pretty good job. That is, they can predict trends and technical stresses some years into the future and make intelligent predictions about the broad style of solution that will result. On details, they?re rarely right ? but the broad picture, they?re often right. Personally, having gone back and looked at my predictions over the past 20 years or so, I?m right well over 50% of the time. Side observation - one can be right about the technology and then be completely wrong about which company will take advantage. Craig > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From jgrudin at microsoft.com Thu Sep 24 11:15:23 2015 From: jgrudin at microsoft.com (Jonathan Grudin) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:15:23 +0000 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: My favorite examples of science fiction that got it right are E. M Forster's 1909 The Machine Stops, which I thought did a good job of capturing some Internet capabilities a century later as well as some AI possibilities (you may disagree), and Vannevar Bush's As We May Think, which he pretty much knew by 1945 wouldn't be realized by an opto-mechanical system and didn't yet see the alternative, but which inspired a lot of people who eventually realized it. -----Original Message----- From: internet-history-bounces at postel.org [mailto:internet-history-bounces at postel.org] On Behalf Of John Day Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 10:41 AM To: Miles Fidelman Cc: internet-history at postel.org Subject: Re: [ih] Fiction->History "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. > On Sep 24, 2015, at 12:56, Miles Fidelman wrote: > > A few more obvious ones comes to mind: > > "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" > > "Colossus: The Forbin Project" - and lots of variants on that theme > (up to, and including, the Terminator movies -- and what with > automatically swarming drones now a reality, somehow Skynet seems to > loom on the near > horizon!) > > "Shockwave Rider" - which seemed to get an awful lot of things right, > for its time > > Miles Fidelman > > Bill Ricker wrote: >> >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Larry Sheldon > > wrote: >> >> >> Fiction->History >> >> ?There are two sorts of SciFi (aside from the Fantastic) - those that >> aren't facts yet? ?but likely will be if we persevere, and ?those >> that could be facts if we screw things up even worse. Those writing >> near-term SF are well advised to leverage William Gibson's aphorism >> "The future is already here - it's just not evenly distributed" to >> sniff out what is in the labs and the pockets of the early adopters. >> >> ? >> In 1977 there was a book titled ?The Adolescence of P-1? (Thomas >> Joseph >> Ryan) >> >> >> I thought I remembered this was either serialized or first appeared >> as a novella in one of the magazines before release as a book, but >> Google finds no proof of that? Odd. >> There was a flurry of pre-cyber-punk AI / rogue-programmer stories >> in Analog in the late 70's, i recall one featured a female hacker but >> i forget the title, and that it was the month before or after P-1 so >> it seemed a trend. ? >> >> There are plenty of listicles that catalog SciFi >> stories/concepts/widgets that became reality -- partly through >> invention of the engineering fact being easier after invention of the >> idea as fiction, as testified to by the inventor of Cellphones being >> inspired by Kirk's (Roddenbery's) communicator -- but has this been >> treated in the full academic style as literature-and-society or >> history of science? I don't know. ?I am remiss in not surveying >> academic treatment of ? SciFi as LitCrit in between Padlipsky's >> thesis (latterly of MULTICS and this I-H list) and Gannon's [1] >> /Rumors of War/ [2] and Pournelle's SIGMA [3], which respectively >> study and practice influence of SF on military and government policy. >> If there isn't yet an academic study of the influence of P-1 and >> the following Cyber-punk movement on Silicon valley et al in any/all >> aspects (network, OS, application, User interface), it's due, it's ripe. >> If we don't get an answer on this list, i can ask Chuck Gannon and >> network through my other SF&F friends to see who if anyone is working >> such. >> >> ? (I do highly recommend /Rumors of War/, particularly if you admired >> MAP's literary writing style as i do and are interested in social >> impact of early English-language SciFi on the military.) ? >> >> ? [1]? >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.c >> harlesegannon.com%2fBioTop.html&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.co >> m%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db >> 47%7c1&sdata=q7jU7ofQJIG6RffRwGGqkzlGlBQxl6tOjh66CMCtZiQ%3d >> [2] >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fisbn. >> nu%2f9780742540354&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c9 >> 61741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata= >> tOjyX8U9aGRdw83B7KfybvuRrds6o4kCEuuDLbM0DC0%3d >> [3] ? >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.o >> nthemedia.org%2fstory%2f129496-science-fiction-in-the-national-intere >> st%2ftranscript%2f&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c9 >> 61741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata= >> 6pArgzSS4HlMwGzSXP3lI%2f0Tx60Rbj5e0bJ4iw4tQC0%3d >> ? >> >> -- >> Bill Ricker >> bill.n1vux at gmail.com >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fwww. >> linkedin.com%2fin%2fn1vux&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c01 >> 7d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1 >> &sdata=fnIeqbpS9dbH2g9K1VPRYgHAUTxTjds2%2bXjr4v0xEBA%3d >> >> >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailm >> an.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7c >> jgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf >> 86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fj8Y223b0SK9gsKOfhEmhvg%2fRkaAiI >> wk34mu4%2fZxZso%3d Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailma > n.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7cjg > rudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f > 141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fj8Y223b0SK9gsKOfhEmhvg%2fRkaAiIwk34 > mu4%2fZxZso%3d Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. _______ internet-history mailing list internet-history at postel.org https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailman.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fj8Y223b0SK9gsKOfhEmhvg%2fRkaAiIwk34mu4%2fZxZso%3d Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Sep 24 11:26:46 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:26:46 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> C?mon, Craig, ;-) predictions over 20 years is hardly any time at all. ;-) I was thinking of all of those predictions by experts of 50 to 100 years. They seldom even get the broad brush right. Actually, at a recent conference I got asked the ?old man question.? ;-) ?Gee, what do you think about having all of these iPhones and iPads and stuff?? ;-) After stifling a chuckle, I patiently explained that in 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the Dynabook and much else. We have just been waiting for the hardware to catch up. ;-) (And BTW, I still have my copy). Predicting over the last 40 years in our field has been relatively easy. The hard part has been predicting the dumb things that have happened! ;-) Take care, John > On Sep 24, 2015, at 14:03, Craig Partridge wrote: > > >> On Sep 24, 2015, at 1:41 PM, John Day wrote: >> >> "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. >> > > If you said said ?future predicting? by sci-fi authors, I?d agree. But my experience with researchers is that that experienced ones do a pretty good job. That is, they can predict trends and technical stresses some years into the future and make intelligent predictions about the broad style of solution that will result. On details, they?re rarely right ? but the broad picture, they?re often right. Personally, > having gone back and looked at my predictions over the past 20 years or so, I?m right well over 50% of the time. Side observation - one can be right about the technology and then be completely wrong about which company will take advantage. > > Craig > >> _______ >> internet-history mailing list >> internet-history at postel.org >> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > From craig at aland.bbn.com Thu Sep 24 11:40:56 2015 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:40:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi John: Ah, if you?re talking 100 years, I agree. The literature being cited in the discussion was 20 to 40 years old, when it sounds as if we agree, prediction has been feasible. As for predicting the dumb stuff ? didn?t Farber coin a phrase about reinventing (dumb) ideas every 7 years or so? :-) Craig > On Sep 24, 2015, at 2:26 PM, John Day wrote: > > C?mon, Craig, ;-) predictions over 20 years is hardly any time at all. ;-) I was thinking of all of those predictions by experts of 50 to 100 years. They seldom even get the broad brush right. > > Actually, at a recent conference I got asked the ?old man question.? ;-) ?Gee, what do you think about having all of these iPhones and iPads and stuff?? ;-) After stifling a chuckle, I patiently explained that in 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the Dynabook and much else. We have just been waiting for the hardware to catch up. ;-) (And BTW, I still have my copy). > > Predicting over the last 40 years in our field has been relatively easy. The hard part has been predicting the dumb things that have happened! ;-) > > Take care, > John > >> On Sep 24, 2015, at 14:03, Craig Partridge wrote: >> >> >>> On Sep 24, 2015, at 1:41 PM, John Day wrote: >>> >>> "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. >>> >> >> If you said said ?future predicting? by sci-fi authors, I?d agree. But my experience with researchers is that that experienced ones do a pretty good job. That is, they can predict trends and technical stresses some years into the future and make intelligent predictions about the broad style of solution that will result. On details, they?re rarely right ? but the broad picture, they?re often right. Personally, >> having gone back and looked at my predictions over the past 20 years or so, I?m right well over 50% of the time. Side observation - one can be right about the technology and then be completely wrong about which company will take advantage. >> >> Craig >> >>> _______ >>> internet-history mailing list >>> internet-history at postel.org >>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >> From jtk at depaul.edu Thu Sep 24 11:48:02 2015 From: jtk at depaul.edu (John Kristoff) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 18:48:02 +0000 Subject: [ih] Trceroute and the default UDP destination port Message-ID: <20150924184802.GD29832@aharp.iorc.depaul.edu> In the original traceroute, an early copy of which I have shows this: u_short port = 32768 + 666; That sum is 33434. However, when the probes start they are invoked with this: send_probe(++seq, ttl, &t1); and in that routine there is: outudp->uh_dport = htons(port + seq); seq was initialized to zero, but it becomes one before the first probe is sent, which means the first destination port in the original traceroute was actually 32768 + 666 + 1 or 33435. Modern traceroute implementations, at least those found on UNIX-based systems that use UDP probes by default and that I've looked at start their probes with UDP destination port 33434. You sometimes find 32768 + 666 as part of the starting port's initialization, other times 33434 is just hard coded. However, unlike the original traceroute, the port is not incremented until after it is first used. Now all this is perhaps in some small way a historic curiosity, perhaps there is an explanation for this bit error as traceroute evolved, but it does bring me to a question. In the Van Jacobson's original code he explains that the UDP destination port was "set to an unlikely value", but why the '+ 666'? Is there any algorithmic reason for this it or is it really just a silly artifact that inspires jokes - "The founders were devil worshippers!" :-) John From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu Sep 24 11:52:41 2015 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:52:41 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Sep 24, 2015, at 14:40, Craig Partridge wrote: > > Hi John: > > Ah, if you?re talking 100 years, I agree. The literature being cited in the discussion was 20 to 40 years old, when it sounds as if we agree, prediction has been feasible. Go look at Asimov?s Foundation. The technology of the Galactic empire is really pretty crude, almost no computers, not even jetways for boarding a space ship. > > As for predicting the dumb stuff ? didn?t Farber coin a phrase about reinventing (dumb) ideas every 7 years or so? :-) O, that is just CS in general. It all repeats on about 5-7 years cycle with different time constants. John > > Craig > >> On Sep 24, 2015, at 2:26 PM, John Day wrote: >> >> C?mon, Craig, ;-) predictions over 20 years is hardly any time at all. ;-) I was thinking of all of those predictions by experts of 50 to 100 years. They seldom even get the broad brush right. >> >> Actually, at a recent conference I got asked the ?old man question.? ;-) ?Gee, what do you think about having all of these iPhones and iPads and stuff?? ;-) After stifling a chuckle, I patiently explained that in 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the Dynabook and much else. We have just been waiting for the hardware to catch up. ;-) (And BTW, I still have my copy). >> >> Predicting over the last 40 years in our field has been relatively easy. The hard part has been predicting the dumb things that have happened! ;-) >> >> Take care, >> John >> >>> On Sep 24, 2015, at 14:03, Craig Partridge wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Sep 24, 2015, at 1:41 PM, John Day wrote: >>>> >>>> "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. >>>> >>> >>> If you said said ?future predicting? by sci-fi authors, I?d agree. But my experience with researchers is that that experienced ones do a pretty good job. That is, they can predict trends and technical stresses some years into the future and make intelligent predictions about the broad style of solution that will result. On details, they?re rarely right ? but the broad picture, they?re often right. Personally, >>> having gone back and looked at my predictions over the past 20 years or so, I?m right well over 50% of the time. Side observation - one can be right about the technology and then be completely wrong about which company will take advantage. >>> >>> Craig >>> >>>> _______ >>>> internet-history mailing list >>>> internet-history at postel.org >>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history >>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. >>> > From leo at vegoda.org Thu Sep 24 12:53:59 2015 From: leo at vegoda.org (Leo Vegoda) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 20:53:59 +0100 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20150924195359.GE26729@vegoda.org> On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 02:52:41PM -0400, John Day wrote: > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 14:40, Craig Partridge wrote: > > > > Hi John: > > > > Ah, if you?re talking 100 years, I agree. The literature being cited in the discussion was 20 to 40 years old, when it sounds as if we agree, prediction has been feasible. > > Go look at Asimov?s Foundation. The technology of the Galactic empire is really pretty crude, almost no computers, not even jetways for boarding a space ship. I expect most science fiction writers aren't trying to predict the future of technology and are instead passing comment on the society in which they actually live. From larrysheldon at cox.net Thu Sep 24 14:36:33 2015 From: larrysheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:36:33 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <56046CE1.5060106@cox.net> On 9/24/2015 11:56, Miles Fidelman wrote: > A few more obvious ones comes to mind: > > "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" > > "Colossus: The Forbin Project" - and lots of variants on that theme (up > to, and including, the Terminator movies -- and what with automatically > swarming drones now a reality, somehow Skynet seems to loom on the near > horizon!) This one is interesting (I may have read it--the other two I don't recall) because I got to meet Tony Sale* and was given a tour of the reconstructed "Colossus", the actual first digital computer (before ENIAC). > > "Shockwave Rider" - which seemed to get an awful lot of things right, > for its time Was the network a protagonist in these? * http://www.computerweekly.com/photostory/2240115075/Colossus-the-worlds-first-electronic-programmable-computer/1/Colossus-and-the-late-Tony-Sale -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal) From larrysheldon at cox.net Thu Sep 24 14:58:34 2015 From: larrysheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:58:34 -0500 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5604720A.1010108@cox.net> On 9/24/2015 13:26, John Day wrote: > C?mon, Craig, ;-) predictions over 20 years is hardly any time at > all. ;-) I was thinking of all of those predictions by experts of 50 > to 100 years. They seldom even get the broad brush right. > > Actually, at a recent conference I got asked the ?old man question.? > ;-) ?Gee, what do you think about having all of these iPhones and > iPads and stuff?? ;-) After stifling a chuckle, I patiently > explained that in 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream > Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the Dynabook > and much else. We have just been waiting for the hardware to catch > up. ;-) (And BTW, I still have my copy). I ran across my copy of "The Media Lab" by Brand (1987) and got to thinking about how much of the stuff never made into production while the underlying concepts have become school-child common ever-day stuff. But is the focus _the_network_? (I still think the telephone that learns how you REALLY think about callers and evaluates the facts of your feelings regarding a caller as contrasted with those regarding someone in your office and takes a message or forwards the call in accordance with how you really feel about the two.) > > Predicting over the last 40 years in our field has been relatively > easy. The hard part has been predicting the dumb things that have > happened! ;-) My (unrewarded) claim to fame is the prediction at people would come to think in terms of omniscient (don't think I used that term) wallpaper. The idea was that about now people would no longer be interested (as a day-to-day matter) in the nature of connections--they would depend on the wallpaper to do the right thing. Connect to it here, get cold water to drink, connect to it there and dispose of the waste. Connect to it, get power for your light, connect to it and talk to the world (I did not see the ubiquity of radio). -- sed quis custodiet ipsos custodes? (Juvenal) From johnl at iecc.com Thu Sep 24 18:14:23 2015 From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine) Date: 25 Sep 2015 01:14:23 -0000 Subject: [ih] old books, was Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20150925011423.10250.qmail@ary.lan> >1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the >Dynabook and much else. Ted wrote it all by himself, somewhat inspired by the Whole Earth Catalog. nerdy cred: there is a picture of me in Computer Lib. I don't have my copies handy but as I recall it's on page 100 of the original oversized edition. R's, John From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Thu Sep 24 18:14:51 2015 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:14:51 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <41E23471-068C-4AEB-AAD9-8796658E34A3@aland.bbn.com> <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5604A00B.1010808@meetinghouse.net> John Day wrote: > C?mon, Craig, ;-) predictions over 20 years is hardly any time at all. ;-) I was thinking of all of those predictions by experts of 50 to 100 years. They seldom even get the broad brush right. > > Actually, at a recent conference I got asked the ?old man question.? ;-) ?Gee, what do you think about having all of these iPhones and iPads and stuff?? ;-) After stifling a chuckle, I patiently explained that in 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the Dynabook and much else. We have just been waiting for the hardware to catch up. ;-) (And BTW, I still have my copy). > > Predicting over the last 40 years in our field has been relatively easy. The hard part has been predicting the dumb things that have happened! ;-) > > Internet porn was easy to predict. Kitten memes, not so much. :-) Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Thu Sep 24 18:19:29 2015 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 21:19:29 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <56046CE1.5060106@cox.net> References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> <56046CE1.5060106@cox.net> Message-ID: <5604A121.9030509@meetinghouse.net> Larry Sheldon wrote: > On 9/24/2015 11:56, Miles Fidelman wrote: >> A few more obvious ones comes to mind: >> >> "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" >> >> "Colossus: The Forbin Project" - and lots of variants on that theme (up >> to, and including, the Terminator movies -- and what with automatically >> swarming drones now a reality, somehow Skynet seems to loom on the near >> horizon!) > > This one is interesting (I may have read it--the other two I don't > recall) because I got to meet Tony Sale* and was given a tour of the > reconstructed "Colossus", the actual first digital computer (before > ENIAC). > >> >> "Shockwave Rider" - which seemed to get an awful lot of things right, >> for its time > > Was the network a protagonist in these? > Well, sort of: - in "Moon is a Harsh Mistress," the sort-of-network-of-computers that runs all the systems on the moon "wakes up" and becomes a major character - Colusus - the movie - the computer is a main character, not so much a network - "Shockwave Rider" - the network isn't alive - but things like worms are major foci of the work -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From sob at harvard.edu Thu Sep 24 19:42:58 2015 From: sob at harvard.edu (Bradner, Scott) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 02:42:58 +0000 Subject: [ih] old books, was Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <20150925011423.10250.qmail@ary.lan> References: <20150925011423.10250.qmail@ary.lan> Message-ID: there is a copy here http://blog.stummkonzert.de/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Ted%20Nelson%20-%20Computer%20Lib%20-%20Dream%20Machine.pdf do not see you on the page numbered 100 (page 102 of the pdf) Scott > On Sep 24, 2015, at 9:14 PM, John Levine wrote: > >> 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the >> Dynabook and much else. > > Ted wrote it all by himself, somewhat inspired by the Whole Earth Catalog. > > nerdy cred: there is a picture of me in Computer Lib. I don't have my > copies handy but as I recall it's on page 100 of the original oversized > edition. > > R's, > John > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. From larrypress at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 20:47:29 2015 From: larrypress at gmail.com (Larry press) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 20:47:29 -0700 Subject: [ih] old books, was Fiction->History In-Reply-To: <20150925011423.10250.qmail@ary.lan> References: <21433527-83D8-4440-9B48-CCB3D3600CC1@comcast.net> <20150925011423.10250.qmail@ary.lan> Message-ID: > nerdy cred: there is a picture of me in Computer Lib. My nerdy cred is a short interview in the "The Internet Show" by John Levine. (Plus I was in an NCC session with Ted Nelson, who seemed enthusiastic, but nutty, with a cardboard portable computer mockup backpack). Larry From larrypress at gmail.com Thu Sep 24 20:57:25 2015 From: larrypress at gmail.com (Larry press) Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 20:57:25 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Sep 24, 2015 at 11:15 AM, Jonathan Grudin wrote: > My favorite examples of science fiction that got it right are E. M Forster's 1909 The Machine Stops, which I thought did a good job of capturing some Internet capabilities a century later He got the network idea right, but I hope he was wrong on implications for individuals and society -- 100% dystopian. > Vannevar Bush's As We May Think Here is a pdf of Doug Engelbart's copy with Doug's marginal notes: http://www.dougengelbart.org/archives/artifacts/annotated-As-We-May-Think-withcredits.pdf Larry From vint at google.com Fri Sep 25 04:25:56 2015 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 07:25:56 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: +1 re: Forster. I make it recommended reading. V On Sep 24, 2015 2:34 PM, "Jonathan Grudin" wrote: > My favorite examples of science fiction that got it right are E. M > Forster's 1909 The Machine Stops, which I thought did a good job of > capturing some Internet capabilities a century later as well as some AI > possibilities (you may disagree), and Vannevar Bush's As We May Think, > which he pretty much knew by 1945 wouldn't be realized by an > opto-mechanical system and didn't yet see the alternative, but which > inspired a lot of people who eventually realized it. > > -----Original Message----- > From: internet-history-bounces at postel.org [mailto: > internet-history-bounces at postel.org] On Behalf Of John Day > Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2015 10:41 AM > To: Miles Fidelman > Cc: internet-history at postel.org > Subject: Re: [ih] Fiction->History > > "1000 Monkeys at a 1000 typewriters . . .? Only half joking, with all of > the sci-fi writers out there you would expect a few to come close once in > awhile. ;-) But future predicting in general has been pretty bad. > > > > On Sep 24, 2015, at 12:56, Miles Fidelman > wrote: > > > > A few more obvious ones comes to mind: > > > > "The Moon is a Harsh Mistress" > > > > "Colossus: The Forbin Project" - and lots of variants on that theme > > (up to, and including, the Terminator movies -- and what with > > automatically swarming drones now a reality, somehow Skynet seems to > > loom on the near > > horizon!) > > > > "Shockwave Rider" - which seemed to get an awful lot of things right, > > for its time > > > > Miles Fidelman > > > > Bill Ricker wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Sep 23, 2015 at 10:27 PM, Larry Sheldon >> > wrote: > >> > >> > >> Fiction->History > >> > >> ?There are two sorts of SciFi (aside from the Fantastic) - those that > >> aren't facts yet? ?but likely will be if we persevere, and ?those > >> that could be facts if we screw things up even worse. Those writing > >> near-term SF are well advised to leverage William Gibson's aphorism > >> "The future is already here - it's just not evenly distributed" to > >> sniff out what is in the labs and the pockets of the early adopters. > >> > >> ? > >> In 1977 there was a book titled ?The Adolescence of P-1? (Thomas > >> Joseph > >> Ryan) > >> > >> > >> I thought I remembered this was either serialized or first appeared > >> as a novella in one of the magazines before release as a book, but > >> Google finds no proof of that? Odd. > >> There was a flurry of pre-cyber-punk AI / rogue-programmer stories > >> in Analog in the late 70's, i recall one featured a female hacker but > >> i forget the title, and that it was the month before or after P-1 so > >> it seemed a trend. ? > >> > >> There are plenty of listicles that catalog SciFi > >> stories/concepts/widgets that became reality -- partly through > >> invention of the engineering fact being easier after invention of the > >> idea as fiction, as testified to by the inventor of Cellphones being > >> inspired by Kirk's (Roddenbery's) communicator -- but has this been > >> treated in the full academic style as literature-and-society or > >> history of science? I don't know. ?I am remiss in not surveying > >> academic treatment of ? SciFi as LitCrit in between Padlipsky's > >> thesis (latterly of MULTICS and this I-H list) and Gannon's [1] > >> /Rumors of War/ [2] and Pournelle's SIGMA [3], which respectively > >> study and practice influence of SF on military and government policy. > >> If there isn't yet an academic study of the influence of P-1 and > >> the following Cyber-punk movement on Silicon valley et al in any/all > >> aspects (network, OS, application, User interface), it's due, it's ripe. > >> If we don't get an answer on this list, i can ask Chuck Gannon and > >> network through my other SF&F friends to see who if anyone is working > >> such. > >> > >> ? (I do highly recommend /Rumors of War/, particularly if you admired > >> MAP's literary writing style as i do and are interested in social > >> impact of early English-language SciFi on the military.) ? > >> > >> ? [1]? > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.c > >> harlesegannon.com%2fBioTop.html&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.co > >> m%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db > >> 47%7c1&sdata=q7jU7ofQJIG6RffRwGGqkzlGlBQxl6tOjh66CMCtZiQ%3d > >> [2] > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fisbn. > >> nu%2f9780742540354&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c9 > >> 61741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata= > >> tOjyX8U9aGRdw83B7KfybvuRrds6o4kCEuuDLbM0DC0%3d > >> [3] ? > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.o > >> nthemedia.org%2fstory%2f129496-science-fiction-in-the-national-intere > >> st%2ftranscript%2f&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c9 > >> 61741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata= > >> 6pArgzSS4HlMwGzSXP3lI%2f0Tx60Rbj5e0bJ4iw4tQC0%3d > >> ? > >> > >> -- > >> Bill Ricker > >> bill.n1vux at gmail.com > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fwww. > >> linkedin.com%2fin%2fn1vux&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c01 > >> 7d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1 > >> &sdata=fnIeqbpS9dbH2g9K1VPRYgHAUTxTjds2%2bXjr4v0xEBA%3d > >> > >> > >> _______ > >> internet-history mailing list > >> internet-history at postel.org > >> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailm > >> an.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7c > >> jgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf > >> 86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fj8Y223b0SK9gsKOfhEmhvg%2fRkaAiI > >> wk34mu4%2fZxZso%3d Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > > > > > -- > > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > > > _______ > > internet-history mailing list > > internet-history at postel.org > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailma > > n.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7cjg > > rudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f > > 141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fj8Y223b0SK9gsKOfhEmhvg%2fRkaAiIwk34 > > mu4%2fZxZso%3d Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailman.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c017d402c961741d8b01e08d2c509968d%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=%2fj8Y223b0SK9gsKOfhEmhvg%2fRkaAiIwk34mu4%2fZxZso%3d > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > > _______ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From johnl at iecc.com Fri Sep 25 04:32:03 2015 From: johnl at iecc.com (John R. Levine) Date: 25 Sep 2015 07:32:03 -0400 Subject: [ih] old books, was Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <20150925011423.10250.qmail@ary.lan> Message-ID: > do not see you on the page numbered 100 (page 102 of the pdf) Must've been page 100 in the yellow cover edition. In the picture at the top of page 47, the kid in the foreground is me. In the picture in the middle, the girl in the striped shirt is my sister, and in the right column, the triple-redundancy spokesman was me. >>> 1974, there was a book called Computer Lib/Dream Machines by Ted Nelson and Stewart Brand that laid out the >>> Dynabook and much else. >> >> Ted wrote it all by himself, somewhat inspired by the Whole Earth Catalog. >> >> nerdy cred: there is a picture of me in Computer Lib. I don't have my >> copies handy but as I recall it's on page 100 of the original oversized >> edition. From larrypress at gmail.com Fri Sep 25 08:01:06 2015 From: larrypress at gmail.com (Larry press) Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 08:01:06 -0700 Subject: [ih] Fiction->History In-Reply-To: References: <56035F87.1030003@cox.net> <56042B55.9060505@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 4:25 AM, Vint Cerf wrote: > +1 re: Forster. I make it recommended reading. V You can read it here: http://archive.ncsa.illinois.edu/prajlich/forster.html