From larrypress at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 08:16:21 2015
From: larrypress at gmail.com (Larry press)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 08:16:21 -0800
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
Message-ID: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>

Folks,

The NSF Web site says "In March 1991, the NSFNET acceptable use policy
was altered to allow commercial traffic:"

http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/nsf50/nsfoutreach/htm/n50_z2/pages_z3/28_pg.htm

But this statement of the AUP, dated June 1992, contradicts that:

https://w2.eff.org/Net_culture/Net_info/Technical/Policy/nsfnet.policy

When was the AUP changed to allow commercial traffic?

Larry


From jgrudin at microsoft.com  Fri Dec  4 09:26:12 2015
From: jgrudin at microsoft.com (Jonathan Grudin)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 17:26:12 +0000
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>

I'd be interested. I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was lax.

-----Original Message-----
From: internet-history-bounces at postel.org [mailto:internet-history-bounces at postel.org] On Behalf Of Larry press
Sent: Friday, December 4, 2015 8:16 AM
To: internet-history at postel.org
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic

Folks,

The NSF Web site says "In March 1991, the NSFNET acceptable use policy was altered to allow commercial traffic:"

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fwww.nsf.gov%2fod%2flpa%2fnsf50%2fnsfoutreach%2fhtm%2fn50_z2%2fpages_z3%2f28_pg.htm&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c28f5ff46cb1b481bc91408d2fcc96217%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=1va67ARO1KIWIbKFw7d6YhBbRmMYEQQGHh9YdgtbooY%3d

But this statement of the AUP, dated June 1992, contradicts that:

https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3a%2f%2fw2.eff.org%2fNet_culture%2fNet_info%2fTechnical%2fPolicy%2fnsfnet.policy&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c28f5ff46cb1b481bc91408d2fcc96217%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=DEoTOKMxOuUmcR6loCiXd%2b9jEh1MrKatPLRFP8%2fmKXg%3d

When was the AUP changed to allow commercial traffic?

Larry
_______
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internet-history at postel.org
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3a%2f%2fmailman.postel.org%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2finternet-history&data=01%7c01%7cjgrudin%40microsoft.com%7c28f5ff46cb1b481bc91408d2fcc96217%7c72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7c1&sdata=Myv55mUR%2bkHMEwGYIjC97qeVLLpDxveKYb03l8BhPPw%3d
Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.



From larrypress at gmail.com  Fri Dec  4 10:19:52 2015
From: larrypress at gmail.com (Larry press)
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2015 10:19:52 -0800
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <CAA1xLnGj-CJekqmHKGELXSwSkrdXN8KgWadF7Jwn_R9bvXA2sA@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin <jgrudin at microsoft.com> wrote:
> I'd be interested. I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was lax.

I recall a really neat email newsletter that claimed to be the first
commercial publication on the Internet. As I recall it was called "The
Computerist" and it was written by an AI researcher (named Ken?).

Ring a bell?

Larry


From vint at google.com  Sun Dec  6 05:46:15 2015
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 08:46:15 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <CAA1xLnGj-CJekqmHKGELXSwSkrdXN8KgWadF7Jwn_R9bvXA2sA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
	<CAA1xLnGj-CJekqmHKGELXSwSkrdXN8KgWadF7Jwn_R9bvXA2sA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggfS6npgHOUX4YG1KyU0OoTYNH1XDHVWy8R+Yc-cUk1fMA@mail.gmail.com>

actually, I asked for permission to link MCI Mail to NSFNET/Internet in
1988 and the Federal Networking Council gave permission. We set up the link
in 1989. Several other email providers also joined: Compuserve, Telemail,
OnTyme and possibly others. Legislation followed in a couple of years.

v


On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Larry press <larrypress at gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin <jgrudin at microsoft.com>
> wrote:
> > I'd be interested. I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that
> commercial traffic seemed to have begun and was told emphatically that it
> was because enforcement was lax.
>
> I recall a really neat email newsletter that claimed to be the first
> commercial publication on the Internet. As I recall it was called "The
> Computerist" and it was written by an AI researcher (named Ken?).
>
> Ring a bell?
>
> Larry
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>



-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Sun Dec  6 11:29:30 2015
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:29:30 -0800
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Message-ID: <56648C9A.3070204@dcrocker.net>

On 12/4/2015 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin wrote:
> I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was lax.


Around 1988/89 while I was at Digital Equipment, the Support Services
folk who were funding my lab said they needed to be able to do regular
customer service -- ie, service their commercial accounts -- over the
Arpanet, but couldn't because of the AUP.

However since they saw DEC's competitors already operating this way,
they said they needed to get the DEC attorneys to find a way to say it
was ok.  This took some effort, but eventually the lead Corporate
attorney did bless such conduct.

So, yeah, it was lax.  For a long time.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Sun Dec  6 12:26:31 2015
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:26:31 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56648C9A.3070204@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
	<56648C9A.3070204@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <566499F7.5020903@meetinghouse.net>



On 12/6/15 2:29 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> On 12/4/2015 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin wrote:
>> I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was lax.
>
> Around 1988/89 while I was at Digital Equipment, the Support Services
> folk who were funding my lab said they needed to be able to do regular
> customer service -- ie, service their commercial accounts -- over the
> Arpanet, but couldn't because of the AUP.
>
> However since they saw DEC's competitors already operating this way,
> they said they needed to get the DEC attorneys to find a way to say it
> was ok.  This took some effort, but eventually the lead Corporate
> attorney did bless such conduct.
>
> So, yeah, it was lax.  For a long time.
>

There were also portions of the net, like PSInet, and NEARnet that 
allowed commercial traffic on their portions of the net - by dint of 
being user-funded.  As I recall, there was little enforcement at the 
backbone gateways.

As to official dates - probably the most authoritative sources would be 
Steve Wolfe and Barry Shein, who practically went to war over commercial 
access.

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra



From galmes at tamu.edu  Sun Dec  6 16:31:37 2015
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:31:37 -0600
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56648C9A.3070204@dcrocker.net>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<BLUPR0301MB20827BE4C3718EBF1794FF23A80C0@BLUPR0301MB2082.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
	<56648C9A.3070204@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <5664D369.8000200@tamu.edu>

One other perspective: in the late 1980s I directed one of the 
NSFnet-related regional networks -- this one in Texas.  Initially, all 
our members were universities and research centers.  Then we connected 
the research department of one of the major oil companies.  The 
motivation was clear, at least at first: to enable collaboration between 
industry researchers and university folks in departments such as geology 
and petroleum engineering.  We knew that if we thought about this, 
closed our eyes, and said "transitive closure" three times, something 
complicated would emerge.  But I confess to being surprised by the 
rapidity with which the complications emerged.

One other related comment: as such non-university non-lab sites were 
connected and as the nature of their "usage" became, ahem, mixed, we all 
realized that our options for doing the right thing were limited by the 
essentially-pure destination-IP-address-based routing of the Internet. 
Policy-oriented folks encouraged the IETF and others to explore "policy 
routing", but there was a very natural mismatch between their visions 
and what was practical, then or now.

This is, of course, similar to many human endeavors where practice 
precedes theory.

	-- Guy

On 12/6/15 1:29 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> On 12/4/2015 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin wrote:
>> I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was lax.
>
>
> Around 1988/89 while I was at Digital Equipment, the Support Services
> folk who were funding my lab said they needed to be able to do regular
> customer service -- ie, service their commercial accounts -- over the
> Arpanet, but couldn't because of the AUP.
>
> However since they saw DEC's competitors already operating this way,
> they said they needed to get the DEC attorneys to find a way to say it
> was ok.  This took some effort, but eventually the lead Corporate
> attorney did bless such conduct.
>
> So, yeah, it was lax.  For a long time.
>
> d/
>


From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Mon Dec  7 12:26:36 2015
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 07:26:36 +1100
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1449518400.8155.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.1.1449518400.8155.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <EF0E79E7E06C44F9BD8EB2D27D414222@Toshiba>

There were people outside of the USA providing paid for access to newsgroups 
and DNS based email services from at least 1985 and probably earlier. I 
think governments in general (or any particular government) lost control of 
who could access the Internet quite early on (good thing)

Ian Peter

-----Original Message----- 
From: internet-history-request at postel.org
Sent: Tuesday, December 08, 2015 7:00 AM
To: internet-history at postel.org
Subject: internet-history Digest, Vol 98, Issue 3

Send internet-history mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: AUP revision to allow commercial traffic (Miles Fidelman)
   2. Re: AUP revision to allow commercial traffic (Guy Almes)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 15:26:31 -0500
From: Miles Fidelman <mfidelman at meetinghouse.net>
Subject: Re: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
To: internet-history at postel.org
Message-ID: <566499F7.5020903 at meetinghouse.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed



On 12/6/15 2:29 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> On 12/4/2015 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin wrote:
>> I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to 
>> have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was 
>> lax.
>
> Around 1988/89 while I was at Digital Equipment, the Support Services
> folk who were funding my lab said they needed to be able to do regular
> customer service -- ie, service their commercial accounts -- over the
> Arpanet, but couldn't because of the AUP.
>
> However since they saw DEC's competitors already operating this way,
> they said they needed to get the DEC attorneys to find a way to say it
> was ok.  This took some effort, but eventually the lead Corporate
> attorney did bless such conduct.
>
> So, yeah, it was lax.  For a long time.
>

There were also portions of the net, like PSInet, and NEARnet that
allowed commercial traffic on their portions of the net - by dint of
being user-funded.  As I recall, there was little enforcement at the
backbone gateways.

As to official dates - probably the most authoritative sources would be
Steve Wolfe and Barry Shein, who practically went to war over commercial
access.

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.  .... Yogi Berra



------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 18:31:37 -0600
From: Guy Almes <galmes at tamu.edu>
Subject: Re: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
To: dcrocker at bbiw.net, Jonathan Grudin <jgrudin at microsoft.com>,
"lpress at csudh.edu" <lpress at csudh.edu>, "internet-history at postel.org"
<internet-history at postel.org>
Message-ID: <5664D369.8000200 at tamu.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed

One other perspective: in the late 1980s I directed one of the
NSFnet-related regional networks -- this one in Texas.  Initially, all
our members were universities and research centers.  Then we connected
the research department of one of the major oil companies.  The
motivation was clear, at least at first: to enable collaboration between
industry researchers and university folks in departments such as geology
and petroleum engineering.  We knew that if we thought about this,
closed our eyes, and said "transitive closure" three times, something
complicated would emerge.  But I confess to being surprised by the
rapidity with which the complications emerged.

One other related comment: as such non-university non-lab sites were
connected and as the nature of their "usage" became, ahem, mixed, we all
realized that our options for doing the right thing were limited by the
essentially-pure destination-IP-address-based routing of the Internet.
Policy-oriented folks encouraged the IETF and others to explore "policy
routing", but there was a very natural mismatch between their visions
and what was practical, then or now.

This is, of course, similar to many human endeavors where practice
precedes theory.

-- Guy

On 12/6/15 1:29 PM, Dave Crocker wrote:
> On 12/4/2015 9:26 AM, Jonathan Grudin wrote:
>> I visited USC/ISI in 1993 and remarked that commercial traffic seemed to 
>> have begun and was told emphatically that it was because enforcement was 
>> lax.
>
>
> Around 1988/89 while I was at Digital Equipment, the Support Services
> folk who were funding my lab said they needed to be able to do regular
> customer service -- ie, service their commercial accounts -- over the
> Arpanet, but couldn't because of the AUP.
>
> However since they saw DEC's competitors already operating this way,
> they said they needed to get the DEC attorneys to find a way to say it
> was ok.  This took some effort, but eventually the lead Corporate
> attorney did bless such conduct.
>
> So, yeah, it was lax.  For a long time.
>
> d/
>


------------------------------

_______________________________________________
internet-history mailing list
internet-history at postel.org
http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.


End of internet-history Digest, Vol 98, Issue 3
*********************************************** 



From jcurran at istaff.org  Tue Dec 22 05:19:26 2015
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:19:26 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>


> On Dec 4, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Larry press <larrypress at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Folks,
> 
> The NSF Web site says "In March 1991, the NSFNET acceptable use policy
> was altered to allow commercial traffic:"
> 
> http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/nsf50/nsfoutreach/htm/n50_z2/pages_z3/28_pg.htm
> 
> But this statement of the AUP, dated June 1992, contradicts that:
> 
> https://w2.eff.org/Net_culture/Net_info/Technical/Policy/nsfnet.policy
> 
> When was the AUP changed to allow commercial traffic?

Mumble.   There were significant changes in 1991 and 1992 which affected
commercial traffic on the NSFNET.

(This is actually an example of where the wikipedia article is fairly complete:
 <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation_Network#Commercial_traffic <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation_Network#Commercial_traffic>>)

Prior to the NSFNSF AUP change in 1991, organizations connecting that were clearly 
commercial in nature would be asked (either by NSF, Merit, or the NNSC at BBN) 
whether their usage was going directly in support of research (e.g. DECWRL, HP 
Labs, etc.), as it was generally not assumed to be the case.

Several months after the 1991 NSFNET AUP change, I know that the NNSC was 
told that interconnection of commercial entities could be assumed to be in 
support of research and educational purposes (I presume the Merit folks were 
told the same.)

Rick Adam?s reflects on this change in the state of affairs (pre-1991 vs post-1991 
NSFNET connection) in an interesting-people email here: <http://archive.is/vTrkS <http://archive.is/vTrkS>>

Even after the NSFNSF AUP change, a purely commercial network was not supposed 
to be routed over the NSFNET, and this was something that the newly formed ANS CO+RE 
folks took care to remind NSFNET regional networks about?  (all while coincidentally 
reminding them of the availability of their commercial packet routing over the same 
infrastructure, aka, COMBits  <ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/doc/net.policy/ans-plan.txt <ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/doc/net.policy/ans-plan.txt>>).

While there was some purely commercial interconnection with the NSFNET, this
was predominantly via the brokered interconnection with the CIX and commercial
networks not participating in the CIX were not routed on the NSFNET infrastructure
in general (e.g. <http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/mjts/1992-06/msg00015.html <http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/mjts/1992-06/msg00015.html>>).

Minor routing issues related to purely commercial use of the NSFNET continued to 
come up from time to time until the transition over to 5 commercial backbones 
[UUNET, PSI, BBB, MCI, Sprintlink] architecture (aka ?vBNS/RA/NAP?) in 1994.

/John

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From cos at aaaaa.org  Tue Dec 22 07:53:34 2015
From: cos at aaaaa.org (Ofer Inbar)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:53:34 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
Message-ID: <20151222155334.GP1577@mip.aaaaa.org>

On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 08:19:26AM -0500,
John Curran <jcurran at istaff.org> wrote:
> Minor routing issues related to purely commercial use of the NSFNET continued to 
> come up from time to time until the transition over to 5 commercial backbones 
> [UUNET, PSI, BBB, MCI, Sprintlink] architecture (aka ???vBNS/RA/NAP???) in 1994.

I specifically remember that during those years (or some portion of
those years) in the early 90s, my friends on world.std.com (connected
via UUNET) and I (at Brandeis University) could not use talk/ytalk for
direct realtime chat, but could use IRC because some IRC servers the
World people could connect to could in turn connect to other IRC
servers which could connect to others leading back to Brandeis' server.

I remember being told by Software Tool & Die (owners of world) that
the inability to connect directly between us and Brandeis was due to
routing restrictions because they were purely commercial.
  -- Cos


From vint at google.com  Tue Dec 22 08:01:17 2015
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:01:17 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>

I had permission from FNC to link MCI Mail to the Internet (via NSFNET
basically) in 1988 and made the connection in summer 1989. Other commercial
email providers were also given permission. So there was already some
bending of AUP at the same time three commercial ISPs were in operation.

v


On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 8:19 AM, John Curran <jcurran at istaff.org> wrote:

>
> On Dec 4, 2015, at 11:16 AM, Larry press <larrypress at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> The NSF Web site says "In March 1991, the NSFNET acceptable use policy
> was altered to allow commercial traffic:"
>
> http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/nsf50/nsfoutreach/htm/n50_z2/pages_z3/28_pg.htm
>
> But this statement of the AUP, dated June 1992, contradicts that:
>
> https://w2.eff.org/Net_culture/Net_info/Technical/Policy/nsfnet.policy
>
> When was the AUP changed to allow commercial traffic?
>
>
> Mumble.   There were significant changes in 1991 and 1992 which affected
> commercial traffic on the NSFNET.
>
> (This is actually an example of where the wikipedia article is fairly
> complete:
>  <*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation_Network#Commercial_traffic
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Foundation_Network#Commercial_traffic>*
> >)
>
> Prior to the NSFNSF AUP change in 1991, organizations connecting that were
> clearly
> commercial in nature would be asked (either by NSF, Merit, or the NNSC at
> BBN)
> whether their usage was going directly in support of research (e.g.
> DECWRL, HP
> Labs, etc.), as it was generally not assumed to be the case.
>
> Several months after the 1991 NSFNET AUP change, I know that the NNSC was
> told that interconnection of commercial entities could be assumed to be in
> support of research and educational purposes (I presume the Merit folks
> were
> told the same.)
>
> Rick Adam?s reflects on this change in the state of affairs (pre-1991 vs
> post-1991
> NSFNET connection) in an interesting-people email here: <
> http://archive.is/vTrkS>
>
> Even after the NSFNSF AUP change, a purely commercial network was not
> supposed
> to be routed over the NSFNET, and this was something that the newly formed
> ANS CO+RE
> folks took care to remind NSFNET regional networks about?  (all while
> coincidentally
> reminding them of the availability of their commercial packet routing over
> the same
> infrastructure, aka, COMBits  <
> ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/doc/net.policy/ans-plan.txt>).
>
> While there was some purely commercial interconnection with the NSFNET,
> this
> was predominantly via the brokered interconnection with the CIX and
> commercial
> networks not participating in the CIX were not routed on the NSFNET
> infrastructure
> in general (e.g. <
> http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/mjts/1992-06/msg00015.html>).
>
> Minor routing issues related to purely commercial use of the NSFNET
> continued to
> come up from time to time until the transition over to 5 commercial
> backbones
> [UUNET, PSI, BBB, MCI, Sprintlink] architecture (aka ?vBNS/RA/NAP?) in
> 1994.
>
> /John
>
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From jcurran at istaff.org  Tue Dec 22 08:52:22 2015
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 11:52:22 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>

On Dec 22, 2015, at 11:01 AM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
> 
> I had permission from FNC to link MCI Mail to the Internet (via NSFNET basically) in 1988 and made the connection in summer 1989. Other commercial email providers were also given permission. So there was already some bending of AUP at the same time three commercial ISPs were in operation. 

Definitely the case - there was quite a bit of interconnection (including to commercial firms) 
prior to 1991.   For those connecting new customers to the NSFNET via the regionals, we 
were consistently told that such interconnects were supposed to be ?in support of research 
and education? (even if to a commercial firm) and the typical regional Internet network 
customer service agreements required direct compliance to the NSFNET AUP.

After the NSFNET AUP was changed in 1991, there was a collective sign of relief (and we 
stopped asking prospective customers for their research/educational purpose for connecting
to the Internet...)

/John






From jcurran at istaff.org  Tue Dec 22 09:22:15 2015
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 12:22:15 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic (more: direct
	reference to NSF AUP change)
In-Reply-To: <8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
Message-ID: <C0CC8E9F-527C-43BB-9A00-D6FCE8BFEDED@istaff.org>

On Dec 22, 2015, at 11:52 AM, John Curran <jcurran at istaff.org> wrote:
> ...
> After the NSFNET AUP was changed in 1991, there was a collective sign of relief (and we 
> stopped asking prospective customers for their research/educational purpose for connecting
> to the Internet?)

Ah - a nice reference to the rather subtle nature of the change made to the NSFNET AUP in 
late 1990 turns out to be contained in the report of the "Commercialization of the Internet? 
workshop that was held at Harvard?s Kennedy School of Government in 1990 and that is 
published as RFC 1191 - <https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1192.txt <https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1192.txt>>.   On page 2 -
  'Under the draft acceptable use policy in effect from 1988 to mid-
   1990, use of the NSFNET backbone had to support the purpose of
   "scientific research and other scholarly activities."  The interim
   policy promulgated in June 1990 is the same, except that the purpose
   of the NSFNET is now "to support research and education in and among
   academic institutions in the U.S. by access to unique resources and
   the opportunity for collaborative work." '
Not much of a change, but it was enough to allow service providers to sign up folks without 
explicitly seeking their research/scholarly purpose...

FYI,
/John


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From jack at 3kitty.org  Tue Dec 22 10:28:22 2015
From: jack at 3kitty.org (Jack Haverty)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:28:22 -0800
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
Message-ID: <56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>


On 12/22/2015 08:52 AM, John Curran wrote:
> Definitely the case - there was quite a bit of interconnection (including to commercial firms) 
> prior to 1991.   

When I went to Oracle in mid-1990, Oracle was already "on the Internet"
and had its own private internal Internet as well spanning dozens of
sites worldwide.  It never occurred to me then that this might be novel
or unusual -- after being at BBN for the prior 13 years in the middle of
the Internet fray, I guess I thought that of course everybody was on the
net...

IIRC, at that time, the interconnection at Oracle only supported mail
transfers, with only a few exceptions (like the machine that was
dual-homed).  But I never asked about the details -- in particular,
whether that restriction was imposed by Oracle or by the other side of
our interconnect.

It might have been a technical limitation.  To simplify the
configuration of all the routers, we assigned IP addresses to our
internal sites without regard for the public IP assignments, so there
were many computers inside Oracle using IP addresses that were
officially assigned to someone else.   Interconnecting a private
internet to the Internet was a different problem from interconnecting
your campus LAN, and the router technology wasn't very supportive of
such topologies.  Interconnection at the IP routing level with
non-unique addresses would have been bad....

Also back in 1990 I did some consulting work with a big Wall Street firm
who were deploying their own internal internet linking NY, London, and
Tokyo.  I can't remember the details, but I don't think they were
planning to interconnect at all with the public Internet, at least at
first.   But I recall that I could send them email, so there must have
been some kind of interconnect.

Does anybody know more about the *kinds* of interconnections that were
legal, illegal, feasible, and/or commonly used back in those early days?
 E.G., was there any distinction between full IP connectivity (pass IP
datagrams), versus limited protocol connectivity (perhaps FTP/SMTP
only?). versus single-purpose connectivity (email only)?

What did the "outsiders" do when they were first allowed to somehow
interconnect to the public Internet?  Seems like that part of the story
might be of historical interest....

/Jack Haverty


From cos at aaaaa.org  Tue Dec 22 10:48:56 2015
From: cos at aaaaa.org (Ofer Inbar)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:48:56 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
	<56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <20151222184856.GT1577@mip.aaaaa.org>

On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 10:28:22AM -0800,
Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> What did the "outsiders" do when they were first allowed to somehow
> interconnect to the public Internet?  Seems like that part of the story
> might be of historical interest....

I'm not sure how relevant it is to your question, since this
experience begins after the AUP changes, but from 1994 -> 2001
I worked at a consultancy (which I co-founded) providing system
and network admin services in the Boston area, and in the early
years (roughly 1994 to 1998) a majority of our work was connecting
companies to the Internet, who mostly already had internal networks.
We did the first real public Internet connection for a lot of them.
(We had plenty of Internet experience already, having administered
networks and sites that were on the Internet for several years by then).

If you have any questions that experience might be useful for, ask,
and I'll see what I can remember.
  -- Cos


From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Tue Dec 22 10:51:41 2015
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:51:41 -0800
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
	<56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <56799BBD.5060504@dcrocker.net>

On 12/22/2015 10:28 AM, Jack Haverty wrote:
> Does anybody know more about the*kinds*  of interconnections that were
> legal, illegal, feasible, and/or commonly used back in those early days?


This doesn't directly answer your question, but might have some relevant:

      To Be "On" the Internet

      https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1775


d/
-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From jcurran at istaff.org  Tue Dec 22 11:17:19 2015
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:17:19 -0500
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
	<56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <75C7340B-4B5E-4413-AD7E-CF048BDF21AB@istaff.org>

On Dec 22, 2015, at 1:28 PM, Jack Haverty <jack at 3kitty.org> wrote:
> 
> Does anybody know more about the *kinds* of interconnections that were
> legal, illegal, feasible, and/or commonly used back in those early days?
> E.G., was there any distinction between full IP connectivity (pass IP
> datagrams), versus limited protocol connectivity (perhaps FTP/SMTP
> only?). versus single-purpose connectivity (email only)?
> 
> What did the "outsiders" do when they were first allowed to somehow
> interconnect to the public Internet?  Seems like that part of the story
> might be of historical interest....


Jack - 

In 1993, Mark Miller wrote an "ISP Buyers Guide? for Network World which became quite 
well known and covered many of the various issues that businesses had to deal with when 
connecting to the early commercial Internet - 

<https://books.google.com/books?id=nREEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA33&ots=isOuG1ry71&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false <https://books.google.com/books?id=nREEAAAAMBAJ&lpg=PA33&ots=isOuG1ry71&pg=PA31#v=onepage&q&f=false>>

It?s great reading, noting the various access speeds and options, NSFNET AUP compliance
(since it was still technically operative for traffic traversing it to destination, and thus up to 
each company to decide how they?d handle), support issues, etc.

FYI,
/John

p.s. Oh, yes, also worth reading Vint Cerf?s related sidebar on page 36
       entitled ?Society reaches out? (i.e. about The Internet Society) 


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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Dec 22 11:24:49 2015
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:24:49 +1300
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
	<56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <5679A381.1070804@gmail.com>

On 23/12/2015 07:28, Jack Haverty wrote:

...
> Does anybody know more about the *kinds* of interconnections that were
> legal, illegal, feasible, and/or commonly used back in those early days?
>  E.G., was there any distinction between full IP connectivity (pass IP
> datagrams), versus limited protocol connectivity (perhaps FTP/SMTP
> only?). versus single-purpose connectivity (email only)?

I don't recall any intermediate steps between mail gatewaying and full
IP layer interconnection. There was a lot of talk about application
layer gateways other than email, but not much action. At CERN, everything
we did was deemed to be for research purposes, even if it involved commercial
partners, so we never worried too much about those pesky AUPs (except when
asking for funding, when we had to swear it was all for physics).

I guess the period when we had trouble sending email to uk.oracle.com
(which was sometimes assumed to be in JANET order and was automatically
flipped to com.oracle.uk), or to cs.ucl.ac.uk (sometimes flipped
to uk.ac.ucl.cs, i.e. Czechoslovakia) was just before full IP connectivity.

Another fragment is that AUP issues were discussed in the CCIRN (coordinating
committee for international research networking) from April 1989, if not
earlier. There were discrepancies between different countries and that
was a problem. Once we got fully into IP layer connectivity it all became
rather silly, but of course it evolved into BGP-4 policy in due course,
because nobody wanted to carry unfunded traffic.

    Brian




From ocl at gih.com  Tue Dec 22 12:38:51 2015
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:38:51 +0100
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
Message-ID: <5679B4DB.2030409@gih.com>



On 22/12/2015 14:19, John Curran wrote:
> While there was some purely commercial interconnection with the
> NSFNET, this
> was predominantly via the brokered interconnection with the CIX and
> commercial
> networks not participating in the CIX were not routed on the NSFNET
> infrastructure
> in general (e.g.
> <http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/mjts/1992-06/msg00015.html>).

I am glad you mentioned CIX because they were a key catalyst to the
changes in AUPs.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_Internet_eXchange

It's important to note that a lot of things were taking place
simultaneously so it's a bit hard to get an exact chronology & date. On
paper AUPs were there. In practice, a lot of this official paperwork
stuff was left aside. In contrast, policing in X.25 & X.400 services was
much tighter... perhaps leading to their downfall?

Kindest regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html




From ocl at gih.com  Tue Dec 22 12:38:55 2015
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 21:38:55 +0100
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<CAHxHggfHgRHeV1rGvKk_ogKOLdsKxe7PBB_k-7njUVnUpxj4DA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8C9DE820-A808-4438-9715-80101FC76CEC@istaff.org>
	<56799646.3060308@3kitty.org>
Message-ID: <5679B4DF.7060109@gih.com>



On 22/12/2015 19:28, Jack Haverty wrote:
> Does anybody know more about the *kinds* of interconnections that were
> legal, illegal, feasible, and/or commonly used back in those early days?
>  E.G., was there any distinction between full IP connectivity (pass IP
> datagrams), versus limited protocol connectivity (perhaps FTP/SMTP
> only?). versus single-purpose connectivity (email only)?

You might be interested in what was possibly the most helpful document
for us on JANET back in the days, to send email out to various networks.
We had to go through several hacks to route messages in & out.
ftp://ftp.warwick.ac.uk/pub/papers/mail-gateways.7.txt

Routing arrangements were even more obscure especially when trying to
reach things "outside" the usual TCP/IP space. Depending on who was
paying for what, you'd get bounced around/blacklisted or whatever...
Kindest regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html

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From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Tue Dec 22 12:52:27 2015
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 07:52:27 +1100
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1450814401.19605.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.1.1450814401.19605.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <21E67EE5808B478CB4595CE094A6853A@Toshiba>

In answer to Jack's question -

Main uses prior to 1989 were of course SMTP email and USENET. There were 
thousands of non-academic users by 1989 across the world.

Connectivity for those of us dialling up from overseas into host computers 
utilised X.25 networks and VT100 or similar interfaces. Once the connection 
was made the ugly internet interfaces of the day took over.

During this period a number of groups were working on developments such as

*porting UNIX to the 286 personal computer, to allow low cost internet hosts 
in developing countries
* software improvements to allow better USENET and editing interfaces for PC 
users (a number of different projects)
* development of non-academic content utilising USENET interfaces (by 1989 
there were hundreds of activist specific newsgroups or "conferences" as we 
called them).
*offline readers - due to the high costs of connectivity, even domestically, 
these software platforms allowed people to download email and newgroups and 
reply offline, then reconnect to send new mail.
*Tim Pozar's UFGATE software connecting the Fidonet world to the Internet 
world

I am sure there were many more - these are off the top of my head.

By 1989 domestic modem speeds had moved from 300 baud to 2400 baud. 
Trailblazer modems used for new hosts I think were up to 9600 baud? Or 
perhaps 19200?


Ian Peter
 



From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Tue Dec 22 13:02:43 2015
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 08:02:43 +1100
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
Message-ID: <06CA50C5DAE64DB5806507FD088D20E6@Toshiba>

Just following up on my last message -

The following article which I wrote some time ago gives a quick summary of 
developments in the 1980s in a number of areas, including the many 
non-Internet protocol based hobby networks and the evolution of ARPANet to 
NSFNet. Might be of interest to some.


http://www.nethistory.info/History%20of%20the%20Internet/pcnets.html

Ian Peter

-----Original Message----- 
From: Ian Peter
Sent: Wednesday, December 23, 2015 7:52 AM
To: internet-history at postel.org
Subject: Re: AUP revision to allow commercial traffic

In answer to Jack's question -

Main uses prior to 1989 were of course SMTP email and USENET. There were
thousands of non-academic users by 1989 across the world.

Connectivity for those of us dialling up from overseas into host computers
utilised X.25 networks and VT100 or similar interfaces. Once the connection
was made the ugly internet interfaces of the day took over.

During this period a number of groups were working on developments such as

*porting UNIX to the 286 personal computer, to allow low cost internet hosts
in developing countries
* software improvements to allow better USENET and editing interfaces for PC
users (a number of different projects)
* development of non-academic content utilising USENET interfaces (by 1989
there were hundreds of activist specific newsgroups or "conferences" as we
called them).
*offline readers - due to the high costs of connectivity, even domestically,
these software platforms allowed people to download email and newgroups and
reply offline, then reconnect to send new mail.
*Tim Pozar's UFGATE software connecting the Fidonet world to the Internet
world

I am sure there were many more - these are off the top of my head.

By 1989 domestic modem speeds had moved from 300 baud to 2400 baud.
Trailblazer modems used for new hosts I think were up to 9600 baud? Or
perhaps 19200?


Ian Peter



From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Dec 22 16:32:41 2015
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 13:32:41 +1300
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <5679B4DB.2030409@gih.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<5679B4DB.2030409@gih.com>
Message-ID: <5679EBA9.6000804@gmail.com>

On 23/12/2015 09:38, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
...
> ...In contrast, policing in X.25 & X.400 services was
> much tighter... perhaps leading to their downfall?

Policing is in a sense integral to X.25 (and any other virtual
circuit network), especially since most X.25 was billed exactly
like a telephone call.

X.400 services? That's pretty close to an oxymoron, isn't it?
Here too, the PTTs looked at it as a future cash-cow, so the
charging model was like postage stamps.


On 23/12/2015 09:38, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:
...
> We had to go through several hacks to route messages in & out.
> ftp://ftp.warwick.ac.uk/pub/papers/mail-gateways.7.txt

.deserved it that service email the got JANET ,IMHO

   Brian



    Brian


From sob at harvard.edu  Tue Dec 22 16:46:45 2015
From: sob at harvard.edu (Bradner, Scott)
Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 00:46:45 +0000
Subject: [ih] AUP revision to allow commercial traffic
In-Reply-To: <5679EBA9.6000804@gmail.com>
References: <CAA1xLnHfF3-SQmmNW1khg2A2SYEN+x5ksvApCw39T+v2cD2fbw@mail.gmail.com>
	<EDAAED11-2E9E-4DB0-8C88-6625135C211D@istaff.org>
	<5679B4DB.2030409@gih.com> <5679EBA9.6000804@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D4448885-BAAB-4500-A37E-2432ABE30C46@harvard.edu>

fya - As the head of the technical committee for NEARNet I once asked Steve Wolff at NSF ?how do I tell a
commercial packet from a noncommercial packet? - his reply: ?be ready to survive an audit?

Scott



From joly at punkcast.com  Tue Dec 29 14:24:42 2015
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 17:24:42 -0500
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in 1982
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>

https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/

(excerpt)

The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM
computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from blueprints
stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to officially
exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In comparison,
this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k modems that were
widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on the 360 baud/s
modem was of one letter per second.
This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive that
Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he lived
with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
[image: An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in
the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.]

An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the
USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.

Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when
Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words
appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm
server. Welcome.?

Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he
wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room
was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden
from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation
created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might
seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s
remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all
costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural
products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s
case was truly exceptional.

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Dec 29 16:22:35 2015
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 13:22:35 +1300
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
 1982
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <568323CB.4000303@gmail.com>

What does this statement in the full story mean?

> This is why a top level ?.su? domain (for Soviet Union) still remains on the domain market today, despite ICANN?s requests to delete it.

As every fule know, su is "Exceptionally reserved" in IS3166, the same status as uk.
Its ownership is presumably a national matter for Russia, as the main successor state of
the USSR.

That said, the story is interesting. It wasn't actually the Internet, but never mind.

I recall a visit in 1981 to the high-energy physics lab normally known as 'Serpukhov'
(????????) but actually located at Protvino (?????????). They had a bunch of knock-off
PDP-11s (made in Czechoslovakia, I think) and were very interested in the idea
of networking them together somehow. They would have had to build all the equipment
themselves. Their 'mainframe' was a BESM-6, which looked like something from the late
1950s but was actually a knock-off Ferranti Atlas. There was certainly no modem in the
place, and no photocopier either. Also no knives in the cafeteria; you had to bring
your own.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 30/12/2015 11:24, Joly MacFie wrote:
> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/
> 
> (excerpt)
> 
> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM
> computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from blueprints
> stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to officially
> exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In comparison,
> this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k modems that were
> widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on the 360 baud/s
> modem was of one letter per second.
> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive that
> Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he lived
> with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
> [image: An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in
> the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.]
> 
> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the
> USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.
> 
> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when
> Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words
> appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm
> server. Welcome.?
> 
> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he
> wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room
> was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden
> from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation
> created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might
> seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s
> remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all
> costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural
> products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s
> case was truly exceptional.
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 




From vint at google.com  Tue Dec 29 16:56:02 2015
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 19:56:02 -0500
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>

who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not
turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a
server in Stockholm.

v


On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:

>
> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/
>
> (excerpt)
>
> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM
> computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from blueprints
> stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to officially
> exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In comparison,
> this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k modems that were
> widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on the 360 baud/s
> modem was of one letter per second.
> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive
> that Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he
> lived with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
> [image: An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed
> in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.]
>
> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the
> USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.
>
> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when
> Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words
> appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm
> server. Welcome.?
>
> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he
> wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room
> was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden
> from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation
> created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might
> seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s
> remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all
> costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural
> products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s
> case was truly exceptional.
>
> --
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> [image: Web Bug from
> https://t.yesware.com/t/b3b03f93acb29dde874548d979c14638352bd06e/02be17812153eee3f81297f2c0ee6afc/spacer.gif][image:
> Web Bug from
> http://t.yesware.com/t/b3b03f93acb29dde874548d979c14638352bd06e/02be17812153eee3f81297f2c0ee6afc/spacer.gif]
>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From johnl at iecc.com  Tue Dec 29 17:16:02 2015
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 30 Dec 2015 01:16:02 -0000
Subject: [ih] the .su domain
In-Reply-To: <568323CB.4000303@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>

In article <568323CB.4000303 at gmail.com> you write:
>What does this statement in the full story mean?
>
>> This is why a top level ?.su? domain (for Soviet Union) still remains on the domain
>market today, despite ICANN?s requests to delete it.
>
>As every fule know, su is "Exceptionally reserved" in IS3166, the same status as uk.
>Its ownership is presumably a national matter for Russia, as the main successor state of
>the USSR.

It isn't the matter of the ownership, it's the matter of a country
code TLD for a country that no longer exists.  In all the other cases
I can think of, when a country changed its name or dissolved, the
ccTLD went away less than five years later.  There is no longer a .cs
or .yu or .zr TLD, but here it is 14 years after the end of the USSR
and .su is still going strong.

R's,
John


From bill.n1vux at gmail.com  Tue Dec 29 18:08:30 2015
From: bill.n1vux at gmail.com (Bill Ricker)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 21:08:30 -0500
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAbKA3Xz14YVuN=MDtRj5vOoXemZAYPwiNeHmEOjS4p+ad003A@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 7:56 PM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:

> who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not
> turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a
> server in Stockholm.


Likely so. False equivalences abound among those who write for the masses (
Internet = Web = any walled garden social media platform). Even a properly
reported story can be damaged by Editor punching it up ...

Still, being the only Soviet Academic on a western pre-conference dialup
Forum service, even if it was only a walled garden on a standalone 360, is
to be a digital freedom pioneer of sorts.

But ... what if the Stockholm academic 360 had a ?BITNET connection to a
(d)ARPAnet 360 somewhere in Europe ?
When did ad hoc internetworking start ?(The peak of ad%hoc!internetworking
was later, of course.)

-- 
Bill Ricker
bill.n1vux at gmail.com
https://www.linkedin.com/in/n1vux
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From paul at redbarn.org  Tue Dec 29 18:44:01 2015
From: paul at redbarn.org (P Vixie)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 02:44:01 +0000
Subject: [ih] the .su domain
In-Reply-To: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <12104E0D-59A8-489B-9087-52ABDF361B9D@redbarn.org>

I bought vix.su and I use it in place of vix.com which I've sold. As a child of the cold war I'm very very pleased to be able to buy property in the Soviet Union. Please don't take that away.

On December 29, 2015 5:16:02 PM PST, John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
>In article <568323CB.4000303 at gmail.com> you write:
>>What does this statement in the full story mean?
>>
>>> This is why a top level ?.su? domain (for Soviet Union) still
>remains on the domain
>>market today, despite ICANN?s requests to delete it.
>>
>>As every fule know, su is "Exceptionally reserved" in IS3166, the same
>status as uk.
>>Its ownership is presumably a national matter for Russia, as the main
>successor state of
>>the USSR.
>
>It isn't the matter of the ownership, it's the matter of a country
>code TLD for a country that no longer exists.  In all the other cases
>I can think of, when a country changed its name or dissolved, the
>ccTLD went away less than five years later.  There is no longer a .cs
>or .yu or .zr TLD, but here it is 14 years after the end of the USSR
>and .su is still going strong.
>
>R's,
>John
>_______
>internet-history mailing list
>internet-history at postel.org
>http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Tue Dec 29 20:19:09 2015
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:19:09 +1300
Subject: [ih] the .su domain
In-Reply-To: <12104E0D-59A8-489B-9087-52ABDF361B9D@redbarn.org>
References: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
	<12104E0D-59A8-489B-9087-52ABDF361B9D@redbarn.org>
Message-ID: <56835B3D.3000208@gmail.com>

On 30/12/2015 15:44, P Vixie wrote:
> I bought vix.su 

Where su means superuser, no doubt ;-)

> and I use it in place of vix.com which I've sold. As a child of the cold war I'm very very pleased to be able to buy property
in the Soviet Union. Please don't take that away.

In any case, it isn't ICANN's business IMNSHO. And really, where's the harm,
compared to all the other TLD nonsense?

It was always rather neat that su was the inverse of us, I thought.

   Brian

> 
> On December 29, 2015 5:16:02 PM PST, John Levine <johnl at iecc.com> wrote:
>> In article <568323CB.4000303 at gmail.com> you write:
>>> What does this statement in the full story mean?
>>>
>>>> This is why a top level ?.su? domain (for Soviet Union) still
>> remains on the domain
>>> market today, despite ICANN?s requests to delete it.
>>>
>>> As every fule know, su is "Exceptionally reserved" in IS3166, the same
>> status as uk.
>>> Its ownership is presumably a national matter for Russia, as the main
>> successor state of
>>> the USSR.
>>
>> It isn't the matter of the ownership, it's the matter of a country
>> code TLD for a country that no longer exists.  In all the other cases
>> I can think of, when a country changed its name or dissolved, the
>> ccTLD went away less than five years later.  There is no longer a .cs
>> or .yu or .zr TLD, but here it is 14 years after the end of the USSR
>> and .su is still going strong.
>>
>> R's,
>> John
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 




From joly at punkcast.com  Tue Dec 29 20:23:12 2015
From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 23:23:12 -0500
Subject: [ih] the .su domain
In-Reply-To: <12104E0D-59A8-489B-9087-52ABDF361B9D@redbarn.org>
References: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
	<12104E0D-59A8-489B-9087-52ABDF361B9D@redbarn.org>
Message-ID: <CAM9VJk2GWbrcunDS2dD4qZnW=SssNHr1=SvJHzPkeY+MLBvXJA@mail.gmail.com>

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 9:44 PM, P Vixie <paul at redbarn.org> wrote:

> I bought vix.su
>

But http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://vix.su/

j


?



-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
--------------------------------------------------------------
-
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From paul at redbarn.org  Tue Dec 29 20:36:15 2015
From: paul at redbarn.org (Paul Vixie)
Date: Tue, 29 Dec 2015 20:36:15 -0800
Subject: [ih] the .su domain
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk2GWbrcunDS2dD4qZnW=SssNHr1=SvJHzPkeY+MLBvXJA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
	<12104E0D-59A8-489B-9087-52ABDF361B9D@redbarn.org>
	<CAM9VJk2GWbrcunDS2dD4qZnW=SssNHr1=SvJHzPkeY+MLBvXJA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <3318101.txlLI3I0tj@linux-85bq.suse>

On Tuesday, December 29, 2015 11:23:12 PM Joly MacFie wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 9:44 PM, P Vixie <paul at redbarn.org> wrote:
> > I bought vix.su
> 
> But http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://vix.su/

to be clear, i only use it for infrastructure. try www.redbarn.org if you want 
my actual public presence.

-- 
P Vixie
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From dburk at burkov.aha.ru  Tue Dec 29 23:40:35 2015
From: dburk at burkov.aha.ru (Dmitry Burkov)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 10:40:35 +0300
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <05F9608E-3B5B-425C-A018-02A9313F245C@burkov.aha.ru>

We did a small contribution to Asia Internet History book

https://sites.google.com/site/annexinternethistory/home/1append-Russia.docx?attredirects=0&d=1

which covered this period too..


Dmitry Burkov
> On Dec 30, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
> 
> who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a server in Stockholm. 
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com <mailto:joly at punkcast.com>> wrote:
> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/ <https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/>
> 
> (excerpt)
> 
> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from blueprints stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to officially exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In comparison, this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k modems that were widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on the 360 baud/s modem was of one letter per second.
> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive that Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he lived with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
> 
> 
> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru <http://computer-museum.ru/>.
> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm server. Welcome.?
> 
> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s case was truly exceptional.
> 
> 
> -- 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 <tel:218%20565%209365> Skype:punkcast
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> -
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

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From nigel at channelisles.net  Wed Dec 30 01:44:26 2015
From: nigel at channelisles.net (Nigel Roberts)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 09:44:26 +0000
Subject: [ih] the .su domaine I
In-Reply-To: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
References: <20151230011602.57074.qmail@ary.lan>
Message-ID: <5683A77A.5050401@channelisles.net>

I talked to some of the SU people about this about 10 years ago.

.SU is a curious beast in some ways.

One minor reasons is that there are actually parts of the former Soviet 
Union that are not part of Russia, but do not have either full 
sovereignty, or are under the effective control of the successor state 
that nominallh claims sovereignty.

The major reason is that there is a significant lacuna in ccTLD policy 
regarding the retirement of ccTLDs.

It was never envisaged in either RFC1591, RFC920 or any of the 
predecessor RFCs.

ICANN and IANA, not apparently having formal powers, has nonetheless in 
several of the examples given, artificially short imposed deadlines for 
removal from the root.

A pragmatist would say a ccTLD needs to remain while there is a need for it.

And ss any librarian, or genealogist will tell you, the name of a 
country is four-dimensional  -- even countries that appear to have had a 
continuous existence for a long time.

For example, Oscar Wilde was born on on October 16th, 1854 in Dublin, 
UK. Any encoding of that must, I would suggest use GB, not IE.

Trieste was neither in Italy nor France until 1954. So anyone we know 
who was born there was not born in either country.

There are many examples of this sort of thing.

(The ccNSO has identified that a policy developent process needs to take 
place regarding retirment of ccTLDs. It just hasn't happened yet.)





On 30/12/15 01:16, John Levine wrote:
> In article <568323CB.4000303 at gmail.com> you write:
>> What does this statement in the full story mean?
>>
>>> This is why a top level ?.su? domain (for Soviet Union) still remains on the domain
>> market today, despite ICANN?s requests to delete it.
>>
>> As every fule know, su is "Exceptionally reserved" in IS3166, the same status as uk.
>> Its ownership is presumably a national matter for Russia, as the main successor state of
>> the USSR.
>
> It isn't the matter of the ownership, it's the matter of a country
> code TLD for a country that no longer exists.  In all the other cases
> I can think of, when a country changed its name or dissolved, the
> ccTLD went away less than five years later.  There is no longer a .cs
> or .yu or .zr TLD, but here it is 14 years after the end of the USSR
> and .su is still going strong.
>
> R's,
> John
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>


From vint at google.com  Wed Dec 30 03:11:33 2015
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 06:11:33 -0500
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <05F9608E-3B5B-425C-A018-02A9313F245C@burkov.aha.ru>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<05F9608E-3B5B-425C-A018-02A9313F245C@burkov.aha.ru>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdjR0QmKTPuRYrLSwkcezGT6J-yyTKmRp_bEzrDbpH-WQ@mail.gmail.com>

Dmitry, this is very helpful - I knew about some of this work but not all
of it by any means. I recall there was a huge flap about 1983 when it was
learned that the Russians had access to ARPANET via IIASA and the X.25
system - it was about that time that I was promoting TCP/IP over X.25 for
commercial access to the nascent Internet :-)

thanks so much for preparing and sharing.

vint


On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru> wrote:

> We did a small contribution to Asia Internet History book
>
>
> https://sites.google.com/site/annexinternethistory/home/1append-Russia.docx?attredirects=0&d=1
>
> which covered this period too..
>
>
> Dmitry Burkov
>
> On Dec 30, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
>
> who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not
> turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a
> server in Stockholm.
>
> v
>
>
> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/
>>
>> (excerpt)
>>
>> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM
>> computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from blueprints
>> stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to officially
>> exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In comparison,
>> this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k modems that were
>> widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on the 360 baud/s
>> modem was of one letter per second.
>> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive
>> that Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he
>> lived with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon
>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
>> [image: An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed
>> in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.]
>> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the
>> USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.
>>
>> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when
>> Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words
>> appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm
>> server. Welcome.?
>>
>> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he
>> wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room
>> was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden
>> from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation
>> created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might
>> seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s
>> remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all
>> costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural
>> products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s
>> case was truly exceptional.
>>
>> --
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> [image: Web Bug from http://MailScannerWebBug][image: Web Bug from
>> http://MailScannerWebBug]
>>
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>
>
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
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From dburk at burkov.aha.ru  Wed Dec 30 03:26:16 2015
From: dburk at burkov.aha.ru (Dmitry Burkov)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 14:26:16 +0300
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggdjR0QmKTPuRYrLSwkcezGT6J-yyTKmRp_bEzrDbpH-WQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<05F9608E-3B5B-425C-A018-02A9313F245C@burkov.aha.ru>
	<CAHxHggdjR0QmKTPuRYrLSwkcezGT6J-yyTKmRp_bEzrDbpH-WQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <464B52D0-1687-4E6B-AF1B-C561540B2655@burkov.aha.ru>

I hope that the project in whole could be useful - now it contains 3 volumes 

http://internethistory.asia/

Dima

> On Dec 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
> 
> Dmitry, this is very helpful - I knew about some of this work but not all of it by any means. I recall there was a huge flap about 1983 when it was learned that the Russians had access to ARPANET via IIASA and the X.25 system - it was about that time that I was promoting TCP/IP over X.25 for commercial access to the nascent Internet :-)
> 
> thanks so much for preparing and sharing. 
> 
> vint
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru <mailto:dburk at burkov.aha.ru>> wrote:
> We did a small contribution to Asia Internet History book
> 
> https://sites.google.com/site/annexinternethistory/home/1append-Russia.docx?attredirects=0&d=1 <https://sites.google.com/site/annexinternethistory/home/1append-Russia.docx?attredirects=0&d=1>
> 
> which covered this period too..
> 
> 
> Dmitry Burkov
>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com <mailto:vint at google.com>> wrote:
>> 
>> who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a server in Stockholm. 
>> 
>> v
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com <mailto:joly at punkcast.com>> wrote:
>> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/ <https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/>
>> 
>> (excerpt)
>> 
>> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from blueprints stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to officially exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In comparison, this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k modems that were widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on the 360 baud/s modem was of one letter per second.
>> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive that Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he lived with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
>> 
>> 
>> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru <http://computer-museum.ru/>.
>> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm server. Welcome.?
>> 
>> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s case was truly exceptional.
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 <tel:218%20565%209365> Skype:punkcast <>
>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>> -
>> 
>> 
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> New postal address:
>> Google
>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org <mailto:internet-history at postel.org>
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history <http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history>
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org <mailto:list-owner at postel.org> for assistance.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190

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From vint at google.com  Wed Dec 30 03:37:11 2015
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 06:37:11 -0500
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <464B52D0-1687-4E6B-AF1B-C561540B2655@burkov.aha.ru>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<05F9608E-3B5B-425C-A018-02A9313F245C@burkov.aha.ru>
	<CAHxHggdjR0QmKTPuRYrLSwkcezGT6J-yyTKmRp_bEzrDbpH-WQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<464B52D0-1687-4E6B-AF1B-C561540B2655@burkov.aha.ru>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggepy1m8B_2NdAuciGEn_pEkd_gHb2Fr5gT=Kiu17krGkg@mail.gmail.com>

just downloaded them - wow - a huge contribution!

v


On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 6:26 AM, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru> wrote:

> I hope that the project in whole could be useful - now it contains 3
> volumes
>
> *http://internethistory <http://internethistory>*.*asia*/
>
> *Dima*
>
> On Dec 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
>
> Dmitry, this is very helpful - I knew about some of this work but not all
> of it by any means. I recall there was a huge flap about 1983 when it was
> learned that the Russians had access to ARPANET via IIASA and the X.25
> system - it was about that time that I was promoting TCP/IP over X.25 for
> commercial access to the nascent Internet :-)
>
> thanks so much for preparing and sharing.
>
> vint
>
>
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru>
> wrote:
>
>> We did a small contribution to Asia Internet History book
>>
>>
>> https://sites.google.com/site/annexinternethistory/home/1append-Russia.docx?attredirects=0&d=1
>>
>> which covered this period too..
>>
>>
>> Dmitry Burkov
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
>>
>> who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not
>> turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a
>> server in Stockholm.
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/
>>>
>>> (excerpt)
>>>
>>> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM
>>> computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from
>>> blueprints stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to
>>> officially exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In
>>> comparison, this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k
>>> modems that were widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on
>>> the 360 baud/s modem was of one letter per second.
>>> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive
>>> that Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he
>>> lived with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon
>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
>>> [image: An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed
>>> in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.]
>>> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the
>>> USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.
>>>
>>> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when
>>> Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words
>>> appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm
>>> server. Welcome.?
>>>
>>> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he
>>> wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room
>>> was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden
>>> from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation
>>> created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might
>>> seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s
>>> remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all
>>> costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural
>>> products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s
>>> case was truly exceptional.
>>>
>>> --
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>> -
>>> [image: Web Bug from http://MailScannerWebBug][image: Web Bug from
>>> http://MailScannerWebBug]
>>>
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> New postal address:
>> Google
>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> _______
>> internet-history mailing list
>> internet-history at postel.org
>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> New postal address:
> Google
> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
> Reston, VA 20190
>
>
>


-- 
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
-------------- next part --------------
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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Wed Dec 30 10:45:09 2015
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 07:45:09 +1300
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
 1982
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggepy1m8B_2NdAuciGEn_pEkd_gHb2Fr5gT=Kiu17krGkg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAHxHggddfCkESXatO-2pLyyORoyJ9n5E2f=DfFZ13M1HMAYeyg@mail.gmail.com>
	<05F9608E-3B5B-425C-A018-02A9313F245C@burkov.aha.ru>
	<CAHxHggdjR0QmKTPuRYrLSwkcezGT6J-yyTKmRp_bEzrDbpH-WQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<464B52D0-1687-4E6B-AF1B-C561540B2655@burkov.aha.ru>
	<CAHxHggepy1m8B_2NdAuciGEn_pEkd_gHb2Fr5gT=Kiu17krGkg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <56842635.9040100@gmail.com>

Give enormous credit to Kilnam Chon who drove this very hard.

Regards
   Brian Carpenter

On 31/12/2015 00:37, Vint Cerf wrote:
> just downloaded them - wow - a huge contribution!
> 
> v
> 
> 
> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 6:26 AM, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru> wrote:
> 
>> I hope that the project in whole could be useful - now it contains 3
>> volumes
>>
>> *http://internethistory <http://internethistory>*.*asia*/
>>
>> *Dima*
>>
>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 2:11 PM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dmitry, this is very helpful - I knew about some of this work but not all
>> of it by any means. I recall there was a huge flap about 1983 when it was
>> learned that the Russians had access to ARPANET via IIASA and the X.25
>> system - it was about that time that I was promoting TCP/IP over X.25 for
>> commercial access to the nascent Internet :-)
>>
>> thanks so much for preparing and sharing.
>>
>> vint
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 2:40 AM, Dmitry Burkov <dburk at burkov.aha.ru>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> We did a small contribution to Asia Internet History book
>>>
>>>
>>> https://sites.google.com/site/annexinternethistory/home/1append-Russia.docx?attredirects=0&d=1
>>>
>>> which covered this period too..
>>>
>>>
>>> Dmitry Burkov
>>>
>>> On Dec 30, 2015, at 3:56 AM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> who ever wrote this must not have done any homework. Internet was not
>>> turned on until Jan 1983. This sounds like simply a direct modem link to a
>>> server in Stockholm.
>>>
>>> v
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 5:24 PM, Joly MacFie <joly at punkcast.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> https://globalvoices.org/2015/12/29/how-the-soviet-union-sent-its-first-man-to-the-internet-in-1982/
>>>>
>>>> (excerpt)
>>>>
>>>> The terminal used by Klyosov to join the conference was a Soviet ES-EVM
>>>> computer <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ES_EVM>(designed from
>>>> blueprints stolen from IBM). It was connected to the only modem supposed to
>>>> officially exist in all of the USSR: an antediluvian 360 baud/s device. In
>>>> comparison, this device had a capacity 22 times less than the old 56k
>>>> modems that were widely used in the early 2000s: the text display rate on
>>>> the 360 baud/s modem was of one letter per second.
>>>> This precious modem was protected by a security presence so impressive
>>>> that Klyosov later wrote he had not seen such since his childhood, when he
>>>> lived with his parents on the Kapustin Yar missile test polygon
>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapustin_Yar> under Stalin.
>>>> [image: An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed
>>>> in the USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.]
>>>> An EVM ES-1033 computer with control panel. These were developed in the
>>>> USSR in the 1970s-1980s. Image courtesy of computer-museum.ru.
>>>>
>>>> Surrounded by many soldiers, the computer room itself was empty. So when
>>>> Klyosov logged in for the first time, he was alone when these words
>>>> appeared on the screen: ?You are connected to the University of Stockholm
>>>> server. Welcome.?
>>>>
>>>> Once logged in, Klyosov was free to talk and exchange any information he
>>>> wanted, without any state control. Neither the fact that the computer room
>>>> was surrounded by military guards, nor the fact that Klyosov was forbidden
>>>> from going abroad had any influence. We can imagine how the situation
>>>> created by this single connected Soviet computer and its only user might
>>>> seem paradoxical. Just remember that the Soviet Union in the early 1980s
>>>> remained a heavily cloistered state, with the authorities attempting at all
>>>> costs to stop the transfer to the West of any kind of ?dissident? cultural
>>>> products (samizdat publications among them). In such a context, Klyosov?s
>>>> case was truly exceptional.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Joly MacFie  218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> -
>>>> [image: Web Bug from http://MailScannerWebBug][image: Web Bug from
>>>> http://MailScannerWebBug]
>>>>
>>>> _______
>>>> internet-history mailing list
>>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> New postal address:
>>> Google
>>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>>> Reston, VA 20190
>>> _______
>>> internet-history mailing list
>>> internet-history at postel.org
>>> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
>>> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> New postal address:
>> Google
>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.
> 




From larrypress at gmail.com  Wed Dec 30 16:19:48 2015
From: larrypress at gmail.com (Larry press)
Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 16:19:48 -0800
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAA1xLnHisZntz9GFvVxmAPuDF=zF8kN7GqOPKVEO4_1ExiZfeg@mail.gmail.com>

> And in 1991, there were already a few hundred users connected to the Unix
network in the USSR.

That network played a role in carrying information into and out of the SU
and within the SU during the Soviet coup attempt:

http://cis471.blogspot.com/2011/01/before-twitter-revolutions-there-was.html

I stumbled into to it after co-chairing an HCI conference in Moscow.

Was this the first instance of network-based citizen journalism?

Larry
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From ocl at gih.com  Thu Dec 31 01:17:31 2015
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 10:17:31 +0100
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
 1982
In-Reply-To: <CAA1xLnHisZntz9GFvVxmAPuDF=zF8kN7GqOPKVEO4_1ExiZfeg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA1xLnHisZntz9GFvVxmAPuDF=zF8kN7GqOPKVEO4_1ExiZfeg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5684F2AB.3090608@gih.com>



On 31/12/2015 01:19, Larry press wrote:
> > And in 1991, there were already a few hundred users connected to the
> Unix network in the USSR.
>
> That network played a role in carrying information into and out of the
> SU and within the SU during the Soviet coup attempt:
>
> http://cis471.blogspot.com/2011/01/before-twitter-revolutions-there-was.html
>
> I stumbled into to it after co-chairing an HCI conference in Moscow.

Not said in the article was that the communication went literally "under
the radar" of the censors since the link to the outside world was a
microwave link to Finland - a pretty unconventional route outside of Russia.


>
> Was this the first instance of network-based citizen journalism?

In 2008 I wrote a story for OneWebDay about information that had
permeated out of Beijing during the Tiananmen Square events of 1989. The
message from Beijing that was carried over Usenet is probably the first
instance of network-based citizen journalism.
Read Story 2 from my blog entry: http://stories.onewebday.org/?p=40

Best wishes,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html

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From dburk at burkov.aha.ru  Thu Dec 31 02:19:07 2015
From: dburk at burkov.aha.ru (Dmitry Burkov)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:19:07 +0300
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
	1982
In-Reply-To: <5684F2AB.3090608@gih.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA1xLnHisZntz9GFvVxmAPuDF=zF8kN7GqOPKVEO4_1ExiZfeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5684F2AB.3090608@gih.com>
Message-ID: <4FF20B87-411D-4917-8757-7A871A1A6FDC@burkov.aha.ru>

Olivier,

> On Dec 31, 2015, at 12:17 PM, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 31/12/2015 01:19, Larry press wrote:
>> > And in 1991, there were already a few hundred users connected to the Unix network in the USSR.
>> 
>> That network played a role in carrying information into and out of the SU and within the SU during the Soviet coup attempt:
>> 
>> http://cis471.blogspot.com/2011/01/before-twitter-revolutions-there-was.html <http://cis471.blogspot.com/2011/01/before-twitter-revolutions-there-was.html>
>> 
>> I stumbled into to it after co-chairing an HCI conference in Moscow.
> 
> Not said in the article was that the communication went literally "under the radar" of the censors since the link to the outside world was a microwave link to Finland - a pretty unconventional route outside of Russia.

that is absolutely wrong.

At this moment we had only analog communications lines.
Connection through Estonia 64K digital microwave link was deployed only next March and one year later we installed in two stages
E1 to SPB and some later first transborder terrestrial E1 to Finland - julf (Johan Helsingius) can remind dates when we had business meeting on it in IVO (Finland
power company).

It was not possible to implement MITM at this time.

Dima

> 
> 
>> 
>> Was this the first instance of network-based citizen journalism?
> 
> In 2008 I wrote a story for OneWebDay about information that had permeated out of Beijing during the Tiananmen Square events of 1989. The message from Beijing that was carried over Usenet is probably the first instance of network-based citizen journalism.
> Read Story 2 from my blog entry: http://stories.onewebday.org/?p=40 <http://stories.onewebday.org/?p=40>
> 
> Best wishes,
> 
> Olivier
> 
> -- 
> Olivier MJ Cr?pin-Leblond, PhD
> http://www.gih.com/ocl.html <http://www.gih.com/ocl.html>
> _______
> internet-history mailing list
> internet-history at postel.org
> http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history
> Contact list-owner at postel.org for assistance.

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From ocl at gih.com  Thu Dec 31 03:33:28 2015
From: ocl at gih.com (Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 12:33:28 +0100
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
 1982
In-Reply-To: <4FF20B87-411D-4917-8757-7A871A1A6FDC@burkov.aha.ru>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA1xLnHisZntz9GFvVxmAPuDF=zF8kN7GqOPKVEO4_1ExiZfeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5684F2AB.3090608@gih.com>
	<4FF20B87-411D-4917-8757-7A871A1A6FDC@burkov.aha.ru>
Message-ID: <56851288.6000201@gih.com>



On 31/12/2015 11:19, Dmitry Burkov wrote:
>>
>> Not said in the article was that the communication went literally
>> "under the radar" of the censors since the link to the outside world
>> was a microwave link to Finland - a pretty unconventional route
>> outside of Russia.
>
> that is absolutely wrong.
>
> At this moment we had only analog communications lines.
> Connection through Estonia 64K digital microwave link was deployed
> only next March and one year later we installed in two stages
> E1 to SPB and some later first transborder terrestrial E1 to Finland -
> julf (Johan Helsingius) can remind dates when we had business meeting
> on it in IVO (Finland
> power company).

Wow -- so I got my chronology wrong. I always figured that the link via
Finland had been microwave. So it was a dial up after all at that moment?
Also of interest: http://collapse.su/  and the usually interesting
historical stuff from https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/country.php?ISO=RU

Best wishes,

Olivier


From julf at julf.com  Thu Dec 31 04:05:27 2015
From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius)
Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 13:05:27 +0100
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet in
 1982
In-Reply-To: <56851288.6000201@gih.com>
References: <CAM9VJk0VMvHXpvCzLTY4RPgECE3cEhfp5DD3RNsWXDp7Ve5akg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAA1xLnHisZntz9GFvVxmAPuDF=zF8kN7GqOPKVEO4_1ExiZfeg@mail.gmail.com>
	<5684F2AB.3090608@gih.com>
	<4FF20B87-411D-4917-8757-7A871A1A6FDC@burkov.aha.ru>
	<56851288.6000201@gih.com>
Message-ID: <56851A07.1090604@julf.com>

On 31/12/15 12:33, Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond wrote:

> Wow -- so I got my chronology wrong. I always figured that the link via
> Finland had been microwave. So it was a dial up after all at that moment?

No, leased line. Have to dig up some old archives to find exact
dates.

> Also of interest: http://collapse.su/  and the usually interesting
> historical stuff from https://nsrc.org/db/lookup/country.php?ISO=RU

There is also the famous IRC log:

http://web.archive.org/web/20090628013626/http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/communications/logs/report-ussr-gorbatchev

	Julf



From ian.peter at ianpeter.com  Thu Dec 31 14:05:19 2015
From: ian.peter at ianpeter.com (Ian Peter)
Date: Fri, 1 Jan 2016 09:05:19 +1100
Subject: [ih] How the Soviet Union Sent Its First Man to the Internet
In-Reply-To: <mailman.1.1451592001.22197.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.1.1451592001.22197.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <7AF5FC853F014222A4B296DA69C12678@Toshiba>

Seems like there were a few parallel initiatives underway in late 1980's 
early 1990's - the one I remember was Glasnet from 1991

http://www.friends-partners.org/oldfriends/telecomm/nato/zaytsev.html

And its hard to forget the excitement of "The Tanks are coming, The Tanks 
are coming" newsgroup entries of August 1991 carried on APC networks at the 
time the tanks moved into Red Square.

But yes - as someone mentioned the Tiananmen Square events of June 1989 was 
an earlier example of citizen journalism - and worldwide student activism. 
Although not many students had internet access, many used telephone links 
from around the world to dial in and jam China's "dob in a protester" 
hotline set up by the government.

There was also a substantial global network on line of key rainforest 
activists and organisations by 1987, with capabilities to organise worldwide 
protests.

Ian Peter