From craig at aland.bbn.com Wed May 1 03:41:39 2013 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Wed, 01 May 2013 06:41:39 -0400 Subject: [ih] MX and A records Message-ID: <20130501104139.F076328E138@aland.bbn.com> Hi John: This is from memory, and I wrote RFC 974 over 27 years ago, but my recollection is that the fallback to A was motivated by transition but also included as a permanent fallback/bootstrap feature. That is, as I was crafting how MX RRs would work, it was clear we needed to fallback to A records as a transitional matter, but some person (don't recall who) observed that there was no reason to sunset the fallback scheme, as it provided robustness -- if someone forgot to create an MX for a new host, email could still get there. Thanks! Craig > MX records were invented in 1986 in RFCS 973 and 974, replacing MD and > MF and as far as I can tell obsoleting MB, MG, and MR. > > It looks like there wasn't a rule to fall back to A if there were no > MD and MF, or if there was it didn't make it into the RFC. RFC 974 > does describe fallback from MX to A. > > Was that expected to be a transitional thing until MX was more widely > implemented, or was it expected to be permanent? Or didn't anybody > think about it either way? > > R's, > John ******************** Craig Partridge Chief Scientist, BBN Technologies E-mail: craig at aland.bbn.com or craig at bbn.com Phone: +1 517 324 3425 From laboha at gmail.com Thu May 16 03:46:12 2013 From: laboha at gmail.com (Laboha) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:46:12 +0200 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming Message-ID: Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology journalist and blogger. I'm very much interested in the history of internet, that is why I joined this list. I'm currently working on an article about the history of flaming or flame wars. I have found several, but mostly after 1985. I had difficulties to find examples of flaming earlier - any tipps on that? Boris -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ycor at iit.demokritos.gr Thu May 16 04:14:20 2013 From: ycor at iit.demokritos.gr (Ioannis Korovesis) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 14:14:20 +0300 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> On 05/16/2013 01:46 PM, Laboha wrote: > Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology journalist > and blogger. I'm very much interested in the history of internet, that > is why I joined this list. I'm currently working on an article about > the history of flaming or flame wars. I have found several, but mostly > after 1985. I had difficulties to find examples of flaming earlier - > any tipps on that? Boris This phenomenon arose in earlier networks such as BITNET, USENET, also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29 yannis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ycor.vcf Type: text/x-vcard Size: 584 bytes Desc: not available URL: From camillepaloqueberges at gmail.com Thu May 16 04:41:31 2013 From: camillepaloqueberges at gmail.com (camille paloque berges) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 13:41:31 +0200 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> Message-ID: Hello, I have written a long article about the history of trolling on Usenet, with examples of flames before 1985. It's still in the works, and I am currently in the process of revising in order it to publish it in a scholarly journal, but I would be happy to share examples of early flames with you. Don't hesitate to write me for more details. Best, Camille Paloque-Berges -- Post-doctoral researcher at LabEx Hastec Associate researcher at laboratoire DICEN (CNAM), Paris, France On Thu, May 16, 2013 at 1:14 PM, Ioannis Korovesis wrote: > On 05/16/2013 01:46 PM, Laboha wrote: > > Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology journalist and > blogger. I'm very much interested in the history of internet, that is why I > joined this list. I'm currently working on an article about the history of > flaming or flame wars. I have found several, but mostly after 1985. I had > difficulties to find examples of flaming earlier - any tipps on that? Boris > > This phenomenon arose in earlier networks such as BITNET, USENET, also > see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29 > yannis > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From el at lisse.NA Thu May 16 04:44:26 2013 From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard Lisse) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 12:44:26 +0100 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> Message-ID: <5194C69A.9060004@lisse.NA> However, the smaller the bandwidth the less flaming, me thinks :-)-O UUCP with 9600/2400/1200/300 baud *DID* exist in the very distant past... el on 2013-05-16 12:14 Ioannis Korovesis said the following: > On 05/16/2013 01:46 PM, Laboha wrote: >> Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology >> journalist and blogger. I'm very much interested in the history >> of internet, that is why I joined this list. I'm currently >> working on an article about the history of flaming or flame wars. >> I have found several, but mostly after 1985. I had difficulties >> to find examples of flaming earlier - any tipps on that? >> Boris > This phenomenon arose in earlier networks such as BITNET, USENET, also > see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29 > yannis -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar) el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 \ / Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ From randy at psg.com Thu May 16 05:32:06 2013 From: randy at psg.com (Randy Bush) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 13:32:06 +0100 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <5194C69A.9060004@lisse.NA> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <5194C69A.9060004@lisse.NA> Message-ID: > the smaller the bandwidth the less flaming, me thinks :-)-O UUCP > with 9600/2400/1200/300 baud *DID* exist in the very distant past... and the best classic flames came from that era randy From el at lisse.NA Thu May 16 05:51:09 2013 From: el at lisse.NA (Dr Eberhard Lisse) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 13:51:09 +0100 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <5194C69A.9060004@lisse.NA> Message-ID: <5194D63D.4090809@lisse.NA> That is true, Quality vs Quantity :-)-O el on 2013-05-16 13:32 Randy Bush said the following: >> the smaller the bandwidth the less flaming, me thinks :-)-O UUCP >> with 9600/2400/1200/300 baud *DID* exist in the very distant past... > > and the best classic flames came from that era > > randy > -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar) el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 \ / Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ From jeanjour at comcast.net Thu May 16 05:49:17 2013 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 08:49:17 -0400 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <5194C69A.9060004@lisse.NA> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <5194C69A.9060004@lisse.NA> Message-ID: Hardly. ;-) There was a fair amount of email floating around before mail lists got going full tilt and some very early what we now call IM programs in the early 70s. A little thing like bandwidth does not deter an engineer who knows he is right! ;-) There were online discussions prior to 1985, I know some as early as 1972-74 that got pretty intense. What is more interesting about this note is how looking back changes your perspective vs having been there. History, like science, has to rely on the data, not on "what it must have been like" or Just-So Stories. Take care, John At 12:44 PM +0100 5/16/13, Dr Eberhard Lisse wrote: >However, > >the smaller the bandwidth the less flaming, me thinks :-)-O UUCP >with 9600/2400/1200/300 baud *DID* exist in the very distant past... > >el > >on 2013-05-16 12:14 Ioannis Korovesis said the following: >> On 05/16/2013 01:46 PM, Laboha wrote: >>> Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology >>> journalist and blogger. I'm very much interested in the history >>> of internet, that is why I joined this list. I'm currently >>> working on an article about the history of flaming or flame wars. >>> I have found several, but mostly after 1985. I had difficulties >>> to find examples of flaming earlier - any tipps on that? >>> Boris >> This phenomenon arose in earlier networks such as BITNET, USENET, also >> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29 >> yannis > >-- >Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar) >el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) >PO Box 8421 \ / >Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ From craig at aland.bbn.com Thu May 16 06:27:11 2013 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 09:27:11 -0400 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming Message-ID: <20130516132711.B4A6A28E138@aland.bbn.com> I agree older flames are generally better. If you want to get truly serious about the genre, I think, in terms of influential flames "goto considered harmful" ranks high and, that was a paper letter to CACM in 1968. Recall it opens with "the quality of programmers is a decreasing function of the density of go to statements in the programms they produce." (I always thought that part of what made a good flame was an opening sentence that viciously grabbed the attention). Thanks! Craig > > the smaller the bandwidth the less flaming, me thinks :-)-O UUCP > > with 9600/2400/1200/300 baud *DID* exist in the very distant past... > > and the best classic flames came from that era > > randy ******************** Craig Partridge Chief Scientist, BBN Technologies E-mail: craig at aland.bbn.com or craig at bbn.com Phone: +1 517 324 3425 From joly at punkcast.com Thu May 16 12:04:34 2013 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:04:34 -0400 Subject: [ih] Fwd: [Air-L] Internet Historiography In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From my inbox. One respondent has already cited Niels Brugger's book Web History: http://www.amazon.com/History-Digital-Formations-Niels-4gger/dp/1433104687 ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Adam Fish Date: Thu, May 16, 2013 at 12:29 PM Subject: [Air-L] Internet Historiography To: AoIR mailing list Dear AOIRers, Anybody know of articles or books analysing 1) the political historiography of the internet. Who has criticized the historiography of the internet as being written for political gain? Secondly, any research on 2) the space shared by classic liberalism, technology, and history? I am writing this piece on how Obama?s statement on ?the internet? you didn?t build that,? celebrating social liberal federal investments in technology, has been (mis)interpreted by various political actors. Any leads? Best, Adam Fish, PhD Media and Cultural Studies Department of Sociology Lancaster University, UK LA1 4YT p. 01524592699 a.fish2 at lancaster.ac.uk @mediacultures, mediacultures.org http://www.research.lancs.ac.uk/portal/en/people/adam-fish(10a5067e-a828-497b-95ae-e35ed07f9ba1).html _______________________________________________ The Air-L at listserv.aoir.org mailing list is provided by the Association of Internet Researchers http://aoir.org Subscribe, change options or unsubscribe at: http://listserv.aoir.org/listinfo.cgi/air-l-aoir.org Join the Association of Internet Researchers: http://www.aoir.org/ -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org -------------------------------------------------------------- - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu May 16 13:09:35 2013 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 08:09:35 +1200 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <20130516132711.B4A6A28E138@aland.bbn.com> References: <20130516132711.B4A6A28E138@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: <51953CFF.1060604@gmail.com> On 17/05/2013 01:27, Craig Partridge wrote: > I agree older flames are generally better. > > If you want to get truly serious about the genre, I think, in terms of > influential flames "goto considered harmful" ranks high and, that was a > paper letter to CACM in 1968. Right, and "Real programmers don't write Pascal" was almost in the same class, also originally paperware I think. It's to be found (undated and unattributed) at http://www.gotterdammerung.org/humor/real-programmers.html. Apparently it was in Datamation in July 1983 in a slightly different version, but it's also attributed to S. Bassett in "USUS News and Report" December, 1983. "USUS" was the UCSD p-System User's Society. It might also be interesting to look for the earliest libel actions over on-line statements. The earliest I knew of was Godfrey v. Hallam-Baker but somehow I doubt it was the first. Brian > Recall it opens with "the quality of > programmers is a decreasing function of the density of go to statements in > the programms they produce." (I always thought that part of what made > a good flame was an opening sentence that viciously grabbed the attention). > > Thanks! > > Craig > >>> the smaller the bandwidth the less flaming, me thinks :-)-O UUCP >>> with 9600/2400/1200/300 baud *DID* exist in the very distant past... >> and the best classic flames came from that era >> >> randy > ******************** > Craig Partridge > Chief Scientist, BBN Technologies > E-mail: craig at aland.bbn.com or craig at bbn.com > Phone: +1 517 324 3425 > From el at lisse.na Thu May 16 13:34:53 2013 From: el at lisse.na (Dr Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 21:34:53 +0100 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <51953CFF.1060604@gmail.com> References: <20130516132711.B4A6A28E138@aland.bbn.com> <51953CFF.1060604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <519542ED.4070409@lisse.na> I think they were allowed to use Pascal but not to eat Quiche :-)-O el On 2013-05-16 21:09 , Brian E Carpenter wrote: [...] > Right, and "Real programmers don't write Pascal" was almost in the same > class, also originally paperware I think. [...] -- Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist (Saar) el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) PO Box 8421 \ / Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ From craig at aland.bbn.com Thu May 16 13:35:58 2013 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 16:35:58 -0400 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming Message-ID: <20130516203559.032AC28E137@aland.bbn.com> > It might also be interesting to look for the earliest libel actions over > on-line statements. The earliest I knew of was Godfrey v. Hallam-Baker > but somehow I doubt it was the first. There was one in 1984 regarding a networking interface card vendor. A BBNer (name eludes me and not sure he'd want canonization anyway) commented on an ARPANET list that the product was lousy and was sued. He settled. Thanks! Craig From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Thu May 16 15:17:28 2013 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Thu, 16 May 2013 15:17:28 -0700 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> Message-ID: <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> On 5/16/2013 4:14 AM, Ioannis Korovesis wrote: > On 05/16/2013 01:46 PM, Laboha wrote: >> Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology journalist >> and blogger. I'm very much interested in the history of internet, that >> is why I joined this list. I'm currently working on an article about >> the history of flaming or flame wars. I have found several, but mostly >> after 1985. I had difficulties to find examples of flaming earlier - >> any tipps on that? Boris > This phenomenon arose in earlier networks such as BITNET, USENET, also > see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flaming_%28Internet%29 > yannis Email in the form we now know it, started in the early 1970s. Flaming appeared immediately. Certainly as soon as the Reply command appeared -- called Answer in its first incarnation, with John Vittal's MSG program, flaming became a regular occurrence. Easy replying facilitated overly-quick and underly-considered responses. The fact that the target of the flaming is not immediately present means that we are really responding to our internal model of what they said and meant, and internal psychological models differ from reality wildly. Clarification interactions are expensive for email; so we tend just to react. The earliest mailing lists, also from the mid-70s, saw flaming in force. Group dynamics in an email context seem particularly fertile for growing flames. I used to summarize that it took each of us about 6 months to get a reasonable degree of control over the flaming impulse; not perfect, as continues to be clear to this day, but at least /some/ control. However, we did eventually get one participant who demonstrated zero learning and we came very close to talking to their employer. Then we got a second person afflicted even worse... As for IM, in the early 1970s, with my brother and me on separate coasts we would regularly interact using the BBN Tenex Talk mechanism, which was identical to the style of today's IMs, except that it showed a character-at-a-time as it was typed. One day my brother typed something that could be taken in multiple ways and I decided to have some fun, pretending to take it as upsetting, though I knew that wasn't what he meant. With a huge grin on my face I typed back some sort of outraged response. He was of course immediately and profoundly apologetic. It took me a moment to realize that he couldn't see the grin, so then we started 'chatting' about exchanging affect information when typing. We developed a few symbols for smiling -U- and frowning -M- and smirking -W-. And in an engineering environment, that's probably all the range of affect that one should need... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From laboha at gmail.com Fri May 17 06:43:20 2013 From: laboha at gmail.com (Laboha) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:43:20 +0200 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: Hallo and thanks a lot for your helpful information. I think there must have been some flaming in the mgsgroup - can anyone remember this? I have found some kind of flaming in the header group. >What is more interesting about this note is how looking back changes your perspective vs having been there. John: This is an interesting point. Those of you who followed early versions of flaming - would you remember them for being more reserved from today's point of view? Randy: Which ones would you call the best classic flames? Dave: Can I quote you, from what you wrote? I think you nicely summarized the beginning of electronic flaming with the reply button! Larry: Yes, the name Mark Ethan Smith already appeared in my inquiries, also the fact, that there has been flaming in BBS, though I'm still looking for good examples. Best regards Boris -- Boris H?n?ler Wissenschafts- und Technikjournalist Rosental 44 53111 Bonn fon: 0228 184 14 534 mob: 0178 559 15 91 fax: 0321 211 99 848 mail: info at boris-haenssler.dehttp://www.boris-haenssler.de Robotergesetze | Ein Blog ?ber Menschen und Maschinen:http://www.robotergesetze.com 2013/5/17 Dave Crocker > On 5/16/2013 4:14 AM, Ioannis Korovesis wrote: > >> On 05/16/2013 01:46 PM, Laboha wrote: >> >>> Hi, I'm new to this mailing list. I'm a German technology journalist >>> and blogger. I'm very much interested in the history of internet, that >>> is why I joined this list. I'm currently working on an article about >>> the history of flaming or flame wars. I have found several, but mostly >>> after 1985. I had difficulties to find examples of flaming earlier - >>> any tipps on that? Boris >>> >> This phenomenon arose in earlier networks such as BITNET, USENET, also >> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/**Flaming_%28Internet%29 >> yannis >> > > > Email in the form we now know it, started in the early 1970s. Flaming > appeared immediately. > > Certainly as soon as the Reply command appeared -- called Answer in its > first incarnation, with John Vittal's MSG program, flaming became a regular > occurrence. Easy replying facilitated overly-quick and underly-considered > responses. > > The fact that the target of the flaming is not immediately present means > that we are really responding to our internal model of what they said and > meant, and internal psychological models differ from reality wildly. > Clarification interactions are expensive for email; so we tend just to > react. > > The earliest mailing lists, also from the mid-70s, saw flaming in force. > Group dynamics in an email context seem particularly fertile for growing > flames. > > I used to summarize that it took each of us about 6 months to get a > reasonable degree of control over the flaming impulse; not perfect, as > continues to be clear to this day, but at least /some/ control. However, we > did eventually get one participant who demonstrated zero learning and we > came very close to talking to their employer. Then we got a second person > afflicted even worse... > > As for IM, in the early 1970s, with my brother and me on separate coasts > we would regularly interact using the BBN Tenex Talk mechanism, which was > identical to the style of today's IMs, except that it showed a > character-at-a-time as it was typed. > > One day my brother typed something that could be taken in multiple ways > and I decided to have some fun, pretending to take it as upsetting, though > I knew that wasn't what he meant. With a huge grin on my face I typed back > some sort of outraged response. He was of course immediately and > profoundly apologetic. > > It took me a moment to realize that he couldn't see the grin, so then we > started 'chatting' about exchanging affect information when typing. > > We developed a few symbols for smiling -U- and frowning -M- and smirking > -W-. > > And in an engineering environment, that's probably all the range of affect > that one should need... > > > d/ > > > -- > Dave Crocker > Brandenburg InternetWorking > bbiw.net > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Fri May 17 07:29:35 2013 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 07:29:35 -0700 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <51963ECF.6070305@dcrocker.net> On 5/17/2013 6:43 AM, Laboha wrote: > I think there must have been some flaming in the mgsgroup - can anyone > remember this? I have found some kind of flaming in the header group. I believe msggroup was the first arpanet-wide mailing list. (I sometimes confuse it with hdrpeople, since it was also about email, but it was more technical, as we were developing format standards for mail.) Anyhow, msggroup is the one I had in mind when I described the learning process, to reduce flaming, that we all went through, except for a couple of people... FWIW, I think that the tone and style of flaming hasn't changed much, for flaming among an 'organized' group. That is, a group that can be called a community. I believe having some actual association to each other produces some limits on what is posted, even though it might not seem like it. In contrast, the sorts of things posted by random people on public lists today sometimes has no limits at all. > Dave: Can I quote you, from what you wrote? I think you nicely > summarized the beginning of electronic flaming with the reply button! Sure. I've been offering roughly the same summary for probably 30 years... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jeanjour at comcast.net Fri May 17 11:19:28 2013 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 14:19:28 -0400 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: > > >>What is more interesting about this note is how looking back >>changes your perspective vs having been there. >John: This is an interesting point. Those of you who followed early >versions of flaming - would you remember them for being more >reserved from today's point of view? This is a common problem I find with historians. In fact, I was reading a quite interesting article last night on how this same problem had distorted histories of the English Civil War and Cromwell's role. Over the past 3 centuries, the view of the conflict and its causes has changed at least 3 times to fit the times of the authors. None of which it appears was the case at the time. A real problem of historians tending to ascribe today's motivations to yesterday's motivations. As I was always taught: one must look at things from the point of view of the organism not the observer. This has been even worse with the history of the Internet, where many Just-So stories abound. Many times I have read completely fictional accounts of history in this field based on "it must have been like this." The tendency to create the history based on the outcome is far too common or where myths seem to be all too prevalent. As to whether flaming has changed, it is hard to tell. I doubt that any of us have a wide enough exposure to know at this point. It does seem that the lists I am on are a bit more sedate. That the flames of old if they start to arise are tampered more quickly. It is hard to tell if this is because we are more civilized or because there is less tolerance when the shoe is on the other foot. Take care, John Day From arussell at stevens.edu Fri May 17 11:37:35 2013 From: arussell at stevens.edu (Andrew Russell) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 14:37:35 -0400 Subject: [ih] Images from 70s and 80s? In-Reply-To: References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <77B98925-5A3B-43FB-B38F-E935D35107AC@stevens.edu> Hi - I'm writing an article for IEEE Spectrum on the history of OSI, which should run in the August 2013 issue, and the editor would like some images from the 1970s and/or 1980s to add some life to the story. So - does anyone have pictures from the 1970s or 1980s that are from OSI meetings, or other networking standards-related activities such as IAB or IETF meetings? It's important (for obvious reasons) that you hold the copyright, and that you'd be willing to sign it over to IEEE Spectrum. Thanks in advance, and please contact me off-list if you've got something you want to share. The editor also is interested in using a few quotations, also to add some life to the story - but I know that's stirring up a hornet's nest with this crowd :-) Nevertheless, please do send any reflections you'd like to share, particularly if you can indicate the nature and scope of your involvement with OSI. Thanks! Andy From bernie at fantasyfarm.com Fri May 17 12:06:14 2013 From: bernie at fantasyfarm.com (Bernie Cosell) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 15:06:14 -0400 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <51967FA6.23973.1C69D02@bernie.fantasyfarm.com> On 17 May 2013 at 14:19, John Day wrote: > This is a common problem I find with historians. In fact, I was > reading a quite interesting article last night on how this same > problem had distorted histories of the English Civil War and > Cromwell's role. Over the past 3 centuries, the view of the > conflict and its causes has changed at least 3 times to fit the times > of the authors. None of which it appears was the case at the time. > A real problem of historians tending to ascribe today's motivations > to yesterday's motivations. Off topic for the list but perhaps interesting: I just started reading "Lies My Teach Told Me" / Everything your american history textbook got wrong. By James Loewen So far he's skewered Woodrow Wilson and Helen Keller (!). And now he's working through the myths (and lies) about Christopher Columbus [and the "discovery" (sic) and occupation of the Western Hemisphere by Europeans]. ...etc... The thing is he tries to assemble some picture of the "truth" [perhaps again, 'sic'] from the best sources he can find [which are never American History texts]. Things like Columbus's (and his crews) journals, and other evidence [e.g., that aside from the folks already here, North America was likely already "discovered" by the Norse and a millennium earlier by the Phoenicians]. Anyhow... apologies the interruption/diversion: back to flaming... :o) /Bernie\ > > As I was always taught: one must look at things from the point of > view of the organism not the observer. > > This has been even worse with the history of the Internet, where many > Just-So stories abound. Many times I have read completely fictional > accounts of history in this field based on "it must have been like > this." The tendency to create the history based on the outcome is > far too common or where myths seem to be all too prevalent. > > As to whether flaming has changed, it is hard to tell. I doubt that > any of us have a wide enough exposure to know at this point. It does > seem that the lists I am on are a bit more sedate. That the flames > of old if they start to arise are tampered more quickly. It is hard > to tell if this is because we are more civilized or because there is > less tolerance when the shoe is on the other foot. > > Take care, > John Day -- Bernie Cosell Fantasy Farm Fibers mailto:bernie at fantasyfarm.com Pearisburg, VA --> Too many people, too few sheep <-- From LarrySheldon at cox.net Fri May 17 14:38:54 2013 From: LarrySheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 16:38:54 -0500 Subject: [ih] History of Flaming In-Reply-To: <51963ECF.6070305@dcrocker.net> References: <5194BF8C.5040209@iit.demokritos.gr> <51955AF8.9060802@dcrocker.net> <51963ECF.6070305@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <5196A36E.6000100@cox.net> My first contact with what now seems to be called social networks was with The WELL and with the USEINC BBS. Both environments were pretty mellow and if there were incipient flamefests, the sysops came down hard on the miscreants. It was via The WELL that I got access to the newsgroups and the vicious flamewars, of which MES is an example, but certainly not the only case, maybe not even the worst. -- Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics of System Administrators: Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to learn from their mistakes. (Adapted from Stephen Pinker) From joly at punkcast.com Fri May 17 23:21:32 2013 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Sat, 18 May 2013 02:21:32 -0400 Subject: [ih] The Well - "You own your own words" Message-ID: A liitle off-topic, but since it's been mentioned I only had a brief experience on The Well in the early 90's before graduating fo the wide open spaces of the nascent WWW. One of the first things I noticed was that everyone had a neat little sayings in their sigs, I forget the term for them. Since my steady income at the time was selling punk buttons off a stall at NYC concerts (pin money!), I immediately commented that many of these sayings would make excellent buttons. I was immediately snapped at by a zealous gatekeeper in strident terms along the lines of DON'T EVEN THINK OF COPYING ANYTHING YOU MIGHT SEE HERE!, citing The Well's credo "You own your own words". Coming from the free and easy world of the old hippie underground press syndicate and punk rock anarchy where it was taken for granted that everyone shared an ethic of "supporting the scene" and viral culture. I was a little taken aback at the vehemence of this, and didn't bother hanging around. It was later that I came to further look into the principles of copyright - that I had previously so blithely ignored. I eventually discovered the commerce clause, which essentially boils down to the same "supporting the scene" principle, the scene being science and the useful arts. But to the point. How did "You own your own words." come about? And how did it fare once conversation moved to the wider Internet? j -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org -------------------------------------------------------------- - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From LarrySheldon at cox.net Wed May 22 16:37:20 2013 From: LarrySheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 18:37:20 -0500 Subject: [ih] OT Assistance Request Message-ID: <519D56B0.60107@cox.net> Is there a mail-list administrator that I can talk-to about a possible problem that is somehow list related? (postel.org and the message headers already searched.) Please--no on-list discussion unless others have gotten "vbspamtest" messages. Thanks. -- Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics of System Administrators: Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to learn from their mistakes. (Adapted from Stephen Pinker) From joly at punkcast.com Thu May 30 21:04:59 2013 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 00:04:59 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered Message-ID: http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/world-we-have-lost-the-first-webpage-professor-oh-i-have-a-copy-of-it-right-here/276387/ -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org -------------------------------------------------------------- - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Thu May 30 22:35:22 2013 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 17:35:22 +1200 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> Fun, but of course it still isn't the first web page. That was text-only and the browser was called www. I don't think anybody has that one. Even this page makes it clear that info.cern.ch was older. Brian On 31/05/2013 16:04, Joly MacFie wrote: > http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/05/world-we-have-lost-the-first-webpage-professor-oh-i-have-a-copy-of-it-right-here/276387/ > From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Thu May 30 23:58:06 2013 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 08:58:06 +0200 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> On 5/31/2013 7:35 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Fun, but of course it still isn't the first web page. That > was text-only and the browser was called www. I don't think > anybody has that one. > > Even this page makes it clear that info.cern.ch was older. In terms of the historical arc that has (so far) culminated in creation of the web, I'd be especially interested to see the first anonymous FTP file or -- much later -- the first gopher page. (One could argue that telneting to the SRI Augmentation Research Center's system was the first serious network-based document archive, but the retrieval interface was just terminal emulation and I'd prefer it have a network quality to it, such as FTP.) Anonymous FTP was really the first network-wide standard mechanism for publishing and obtaining stray documents around the net. Gopher was the first globally "integrated" document accessing mechanism and was widely used by 1990. In fact the first time I fully understood what the net would become was in 1990, when giving a demo of Internet technology to some phone company folks. There was a gopher page that gave a choice among regions of the world and someone in the class suggested the South Pacific choice. The sequence continued through New Zealand and Wellington. When I saw that the next page included a choice of "Town Council" I stopped asking the class to make the choice and took over. Underneath that choice was a choice for "Minutes" and indeed, it led to the Wellington New Zealand Town Council minutes for a meeting the preceding week. If non-geeks were willing to publish that sort of material on the net, everyone was going to publish everything... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jeanjour at comcast.net Fri May 31 03:54:25 2013 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 06:54:25 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: And of course, anonymous FTP started almost immediately after FTP was available and as for accessing the NIC, there was TNLS as you say, but also the NLS on an IMLAC. That would be the first use of hypertext over the 'Net. Should we throw NetEd in here as well!? ;-) Take care, John At 8:58 AM +0200 5/31/13, Dave Crocker wrote: >On 5/31/2013 7:35 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>Fun, but of course it still isn't the first web page. That >>was text-only and the browser was called www. I don't think >>anybody has that one. >> >>Even this page makes it clear that info.cern.ch was older. > > >In terms of the historical arc that has (so far) culminated in >creation of the web, I'd be especially interested to see the first >anonymous FTP file or -- much later -- the first gopher page. > >(One could argue that telneting to the SRI Augmentation Research >Center's system was the first serious network-based document >archive, but the retrieval interface was just terminal emulation and >I'd prefer it have a network quality to it, such as FTP.) > >Anonymous FTP was really the first network-wide standard mechanism >for publishing and obtaining stray documents around the net. > >Gopher was the first globally "integrated" document accessing >mechanism and was widely used by 1990. > >In fact the first time I fully understood what the net would become >was in 1990, when giving a demo of Internet technology to some phone >company folks. > >There was a gopher page that gave a choice among regions of the >world and someone in the class suggested the South Pacific choice. >The sequence continued through New Zealand and Wellington. When I >saw that the next page included a choice of "Town Council" I stopped >asking the class to make the choice and took over. Underneath that >choice was a choice for "Minutes" and indeed, it led to the >Wellington New Zealand Town Council minutes for a meeting the >preceding week. > >If non-geeks were willing to publish that sort of material on the >net, everyone was going to publish everything... > >d/ > > >-- >Dave Crocker >Brandenburg InternetWorking >bbiw.net From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Fri May 31 04:17:14 2013 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 13:17:14 +0200 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <51A886BA.9040701@dcrocker.net> On 5/31/2013 12:54 PM, John Day wrote: > And of course, anonymous FTP started almost immediately after FTP was > available and as for accessing the NIC, there was TNLS as you say, but I believe was using TNLS from UCLA in 1971, for fun. Even wrote a batch PL/1 program for an IBM 360/91 that emulated the NLS formatting commands... > also the NLS on an IMLAC. That would be the first use of hypertext over > the 'Net. The only device driver I ever wrote was for loading the DNLS front-end into the imlac at UCLA, from the CS department Sigma 7 SEX system. I think we were their first remote user, but that's probably wrong. I suspect a variety of sites started using it at the same time. The DNLS cursor bounced all over the place and I suggested adding damping code and Charles Irby all but blew up at me, noting that they already had /masses/ of damping code and couldn't get the damn thing under control. (sorry for the riff...) FWIW, I do not recall the Engelbart crew using Ted Nelson's term 'hypertext'. But I do seem to recall that what we now call URLs were called 'links' on the NLS system. Anyhow, again, I think the a discussion of the arc of "publishing" over the net wouldn't qualify the NLS stuff, since it was all centralized; it wasn't a distributed set of servers; we just telneted to it, or used the DNLS front-end to it, much in the style of webmail today. To me, it's the distribution of document storage and publication-oriented retrieval that defines the arc. That would be AnonFTP as the first, I believe. Incredibly ugly in UX terms, but quite effective. The NLS system definitely defines the start of document that we have today for the web. But it didn't provide the publication mechanism that we have. On the other hand, the combination of NLS and AnonFTP was a fair rough approximation... d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From jeanjour at comcast.net Fri May 31 04:54:29 2013 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 07:54:29 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A886BA.9040701@dcrocker.net> References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A886BA.9040701@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: At 1:17 PM +0200 5/31/13, Dave Crocker wrote: >On 5/31/2013 12:54 PM, John Day wrote: >>And of course, anonymous FTP started almost immediately after FTP was >>available and as for accessing the NIC, there was TNLS as you say, but > >I believe was using TNLS from UCLA in 1971, for fun. Even wrote a >batch PL/1 program for an IBM 360/91 that emulated the NLS >formatting commands... > >>also the NLS on an IMLAC. That would be the first use of hypertext over >>the 'Net. > >The only device driver I ever wrote was for loading the DNLS >front-end into the imlac at UCLA, from the CS department Sigma 7 SEX >system. I think we were their first remote user, but that's >probably wrong. I suspect a variety of sites started using it at >the same time. > >The DNLS cursor bounced all over the place and I suggested adding >damping code and Charles Irby all but blew up at me, noting that >they already had /masses/ of damping code and couldn't get the damn >thing under control. (sorry for the riff...) > A friend of mine has pieces of our IMLAC. Yea, I remember it was a bit iffy to use. ;-) But they were pushing the envelope in a lot of places then. >FWIW, I do not recall the Engelbart crew using Ted Nelson's term >'hypertext'. But I do seem to recall that what we now call URLs >were called 'links' on the NLS system. > >Anyhow, again, I think the a discussion of the arc of "publishing" >over the net wouldn't qualify the NLS stuff, since it was all >centralized; it wasn't a distributed set of servers; we just >telneted to it, or used the DNLS front-end to it, much in the style >of webmail today. To me, it's the distribution of document storage >and publication-oriented retrieval that defines the arc. Of course, you are right. Although I would offer that was as much a problem of the limits of the technology at the time and the funding. Of course, given that the idea of the ARPANET was "resource sharing" we were suppose to use NLS there and avoid replicating it. The elements to distribute it were all there. It just wasn't done. Although NSW might qualify. > >That would be AnonFTP as the first, I believe. Incredibly ugly in >UX terms, but quite effective. Yea, that appeared pretty quickly. > >The NLS system definitely defines the start of document that we have >today for the web. But it didn't provide the publication mechanism >that we have. > >On the other hand, the combination of NLS and AnonFTP was a fair >rough approximation... I know the ideas were being batted around. If the funding had been there and the hardware up to it, it would have been done. Did you ever go in the machine room at SRI to see how NLS really worked?! ;-) Take care, John > > >d/ > >-- >Dave Crocker >Brandenburg InternetWorking >bbiw.net From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Fri May 31 06:04:00 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 09:04:00 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> Dave Crocker wrote: > > Anonymous FTP was really the first network-wide standard mechanism for > publishing and obtaining stray documents around the net. > > Gopher was the first globally "integrated" document accessing > mechanism and was widely used by 1990. And before gopher there were several CWISs (Campus Wide Information System) varients - Cornell's CUINFO, MIT Techninfo, Berkely Infocal (Z39.50 based, if I recall), a few others. All sort of proto-gophers if you will. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From scott.brim at gmail.com Fri May 31 06:30:37 2013 From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 09:30:37 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: On Friday, May 31, 2013, Miles Fidelman wrote: > And before gopher there were several CWISs (Campus Wide Information > System) varients - Cornell's CUINFO, MIT Techninfo, Berkely Infocal (Z39.50 > based, if I recall), a few others. All sort of proto-gophers if you will. > Miles, I think those are a little different, in that they weren't targeted for global information access. Z39.50 maybe, but iirc it was limited. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Fri May 31 08:46:20 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 11:46:20 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: References: <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <51A8C5CC.9040007@meetinghouse.net> Scott Brim wrote: > On Friday, May 31, 2013, Miles Fidelman wrote: > > And before gopher there were several CWISs (Campus Wide > Information System) varients - Cornell's CUINFO, MIT Techninfo, > Berkely Infocal (Z39.50 based, if I recall), a few others. All > sort of proto-gophers if you will. > > > Miles, I think those are a little different, in that they weren't > targeted for global information access. Z39.50 maybe, but iirc it was > limited. Well, a number of other sites picked up Techinfo (Penninfo comes to mind), and a little research just yielded this line from a status report on Penninfo: "The "Worldwide" command provides access to other CWISs on the Internet that use MIT's TechInfo protocol." A little digging yielded this, on the "techinfo protocol" and a bit about Techinfo innards: http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/net/project/attic/techinfo/src/xpenninfo/protocol.techinfo The protocol had fairly granular addressing: :::::<Source>:<Locker>:<Path> and I believe that menus could reference information on other servers, so both federation and rudimentary hyperlinking were supported. There was also Hytelnet - which provided a unified interface to all the various telnet-based library catalogs, CWISs, etc. A lot like gopher in that it's menus were extensible by dropping files into directories, and each file/menu entry is essentially a hyperlink to an information site, which can in turn reference other sites. Very gopherlike feel, too. (Nice working mockup of Hytelnet at http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/hytelnet/gw) Z39.50, at least as of a couple of years ago, is still the bases for federated search among library catalogs worldwide - "limited" is not the word I'd use. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From jeanjour at comcast.net Fri May 31 10:43:53 2013 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 13:43:53 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A8C5CC.9040007@meetinghouse.net> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> <CAPv4CP-sryrZoOPGfSGt3je8YcDxVb5jdvN57RzN7euSNtAb-w@mail.gmail.com> <51A8C5CC.9040007@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <a0624083bcdce8dd952dc@[10.0.1.3]> > >Z39.50, at least as of a couple of years ago, is still the bases for >federated search among library catalogs worldwide - "limited" is not >the word I'd use. Yes, I am afraid Z39 is still out there in force and heavily used in the library world primarily because LC uses it. I have to take some of the blame for setting that off. It was quite an interesting sociological study. In the mid-70s, there was a National Commission on Libraries and Information Science. One of the recommendations was that enacted was to develop a library protocol. I was asked (I don't remember how it came to us) if I would advise them. This happen in 1975/6, just as I was moving to Houston for my wife to post-doc and was working at Univ of Illinois and commuting over the 'Net. (Telenet from Houston to Multics; ARPANET back to Illinois). There were four main players OCLC (at Ohio State), BALLOTS (Stanford), NYPL (New York Public), LC (Library of Congress and Henriette) ;-) and maybe 3 or 4 others. (Memory is vague). They were all very suspicious of each other and afraid that they would lose out to another one if they agreed to too much. So the first protocol didn't have much in it, but by the time they got to it they were already talking about other areas that they could agree on. They dynamics among the participants and how it changed as time went on was most interesting. (It was about here that I began to see the "Stockholm effect" that often plays out in standards making and why no matter what you do it will take more time than you think it should. ) I got them started and they got through the first iteration, I sent them off on their own and I went back to more other stuff. That effort eventually became Z39. Take care, John From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Fri May 31 12:20:06 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 15:20:06 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <a0624083bcdce8dd952dc@[10.0.1.3]> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> <CAPv4CP-sryrZoOPGfSGt3je8YcDxVb5jdvN57RzN7euSNtAb-w@mail.gmail.com> <51A8C5CC.9040007@meetinghouse.net> <a0624083bcdce8dd952dc@[10.0.1.3]> Message-ID: <51A8F7E6.5020007@meetinghouse.net> John Day wrote: >> >> Z39.50, at least as of a couple of years ago, is still the bases for >> federated search among library catalogs worldwide - "limited" is not >> the word I'd use. > > Yes, I am afraid Z39 is still out there in force and heavily used in > the library world primarily because LC uses it. I have to take some > of the blame for setting that off. It was quite an interesting > sociological study. In the mid-70s, there was a National Commission > on Libraries and Information Science. One of the recommendations was > that enacted was to develop a library protocol. I was asked (I don't > remember how it came to us) if I would advise them. This happen in > 1975/6, just as I was moving to Houston for my wife to post-doc and > was working at Univ of Illinois and commuting over the 'Net. (Telenet > from Houston to Multics; ARPANET back to Illinois). Interesting sociology lesson. Having said that, Z39 is nothing to be ashamed of - if anything, just the opposite. It's a reasonably well designed protocol, it does the job, and it seems to have scaled and evolved reasonably well (and begat things like CQL, which is a perfectly reasonable query language for library metadata). [Though the protocol documentation leaves a bit to be desired - like explicit sections on each PDU type, and a good state diagram.] Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From jeanjour at comcast.net Fri May 31 13:07:03 2013 From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 16:07:03 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A8F7E6.5020007@meetinghouse.net> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A89FC0.5020602@meetinghouse.net> <CAPv4CP-sryrZoOPGfSGt3je8YcDxVb5jdvN57RzN7euSNtAb-w@mail.gmail.com> <51A8C5CC.9040007@meetinghouse.net> <a0624083bcdce8dd952dc@[10.0.1.3]> <51A8F7E6.5020007@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: <a06240841cdceb0165931@[10.0.1.3]> That is good to know. I have only taken a cursory glance at it since. There were some good people in that first effort. I did come across it again when they wanted to use it for Museums, but that is another story. John At 3:20 PM -0400 5/31/13, Miles Fidelman wrote: >John Day wrote: >>> >>>Z39.50, at least as of a couple of years ago, is still the bases >>>for federated search among library catalogs worldwide - "limited" >>>is not the word I'd use. >> >>Yes, I am afraid Z39 is still out there in force and heavily used >>in the library world primarily because LC uses it. I have to take >>some of the blame for setting that off. It was quite an >>interesting sociological study. In the mid-70s, there was a >>National Commission on Libraries and Information Science. One of >>the recommendations was that enacted was to develop a library >>protocol. I was asked (I don't remember how it came to us) if I >>would advise them. This happen in 1975/6, just as I was moving to >>Houston for my wife to post-doc and was working at Univ of Illinois >>and commuting over the 'Net. (Telenet from Houston to Multics; >>ARPANET back to Illinois). > >Interesting sociology lesson. > >Having said that, Z39 is nothing to be ashamed of - if anything, >just the opposite. It's a reasonably well designed protocol, it >does the job, and it seems to have scaled and evolved reasonably >well (and begat things like CQL, which is a perfectly reasonable >query language for library metadata). [Though the protocol >documentation leaves a bit to be desired - like explicit sections on >each PDU type, and a good state diagram.] > >Miles > > > >-- >In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. >In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com Fri May 31 13:19:44 2013 From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter) Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 08:19:44 +1200 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <51A905E0.2070503@gmail.com> On 31/05/2013 18:58, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 5/31/2013 7:35 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Fun, but of course it still isn't the first web page. That >> was text-only and the browser was called www. I don't think >> anybody has that one. >> >> Even this page makes it clear that info.cern.ch was older. > > > In terms of the historical arc that has (so far) culminated in creation > of the web, I'd be especially interested to see the first anonymous FTP > file or -- much later -- the first gopher page. > > (One could argue that telneting to the SRI Augmentation Research > Center's system was the first serious network-based document archive, > but the retrieval interface was just terminal emulation and I'd prefer > it have a network quality to it, such as FTP.) > > Anonymous FTP was really the first network-wide standard mechanism for > publishing and obtaining stray documents around the net. > > Gopher was the first globally "integrated" document accessing mechanism > and was widely used by 1990. > > In fact the first time I fully understood what the net would become was > in 1990, when giving a demo of Internet technology to some phone company > folks. > > There was a gopher page that gave a choice among regions of the world > and someone in the class suggested the South Pacific choice. The > sequence continued through New Zealand and Wellington. When I saw that > the next page included a choice of "Town Council" I stopped asking the > class to make the choice and took over. Underneath that choice was a > choice for "Minutes" and indeed, it led to the Wellington New Zealand > Town Council minutes for a meeting the preceding week. > > If non-geeks were willing to publish that sort of material on the net, > everyone was going to publish everything... What is rather sad, and typical of a major emerging problem, is that the Wellington City Council web site only offers Council minutes back to 2006, and my Google-foo has failed to find any trace of material as ancient as 1990. No doubt they have the minutes from 1890 and 1990 in their paper archives, but there is a real problem with bit rot. Brian From LarrySheldon at cox.net Fri May 31 13:23:13 2013 From: LarrySheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 15:23:13 -0500 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> Message-ID: <51A906B1.4070904@cox.net> On 5/31/2013 1:58 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: > On 5/31/2013 7:35 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Fun, but of course it still isn't the first web page. That >> was text-only and the browser was called www. I don't think >> anybody has that one. >> >> Even this page makes it clear that info.cern.ch was older. > > > In terms of the historical arc that has (so far) culminated in creation > of the web, I'd be especially interested to see the first anonymous FTP > file or -- much later -- the first gopher page. > > (One could argue that telneting to the SRI Augmentation Research > Center's system was the first serious network-based document archive, > but the retrieval interface was just terminal emulation and I'd prefer > it have a network quality to it, such as FTP.) > > Anonymous FTP was really the first network-wide standard mechanism for > publishing and obtaining stray documents around the net. > > Gopher was the first globally "integrated" document accessing mechanism > and was widely used by 1990. > > In fact the first time I fully understood what the net would become was > in 1990, when giving a demo of Internet technology to some phone company > folks. > > There was a gopher page that gave a choice among regions of the world > and someone in the class suggested the South Pacific choice. The > sequence continued through New Zealand and Wellington. When I saw that > the next page included a choice of "Town Council" I stopped asking the > class to make the choice and took over. Underneath that choice was a > choice for "Minutes" and indeed, it led to the Wellington New Zealand > Town Council minutes for a meeting the preceding week. > > If non-geeks were willing to publish that sort of material on the net, > everyone was going to publish everything... Where do HYTELNET and archie fit in this fabric? Or the inter-site capabilities of LISTPROC? -- Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics of System Administrators: Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to learn from their mistakes. (Adapted from Stephen Pinker) From LarrySheldon at cox.net Fri May 31 13:52:33 2013 From: LarrySheldon at cox.net (Larry Sheldon) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 15:52:33 -0500 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A906B1.4070904@cox.net> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A906B1.4070904@cox.net> Message-ID: <51A90D91.7010709@cox.net> On 5/31/2013 3:23 PM, Larry Sheldon wrote: > On 5/31/2013 1:58 AM, Dave Crocker wrote: >> On 5/31/2013 7:35 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> Fun, but of course it still isn't the first web page. That >>> was text-only and the browser was called www. I don't think >>> anybody has that one. >>> >>> Even this page makes it clear that info.cern.ch was older. >> >> >> In terms of the historical arc that has (so far) culminated in creation >> of the web, I'd be especially interested to see the first anonymous FTP >> file or -- much later -- the first gopher page. >> >> (One could argue that telneting to the SRI Augmentation Research >> Center's system was the first serious network-based document archive, >> but the retrieval interface was just terminal emulation and I'd prefer >> it have a network quality to it, such as FTP.) >> >> Anonymous FTP was really the first network-wide standard mechanism for >> publishing and obtaining stray documents around the net. >> >> Gopher was the first globally "integrated" document accessing mechanism >> and was widely used by 1990. >> >> In fact the first time I fully understood what the net would become was >> in 1990, when giving a demo of Internet technology to some phone company >> folks. >> >> There was a gopher page that gave a choice among regions of the world >> and someone in the class suggested the South Pacific choice. The >> sequence continued through New Zealand and Wellington. When I saw that >> the next page included a choice of "Town Council" I stopped asking the >> class to make the choice and took over. Underneath that choice was a >> choice for "Minutes" and indeed, it led to the Wellington New Zealand >> Town Council minutes for a meeting the preceding week. >> >> If non-geeks were willing to publish that sort of material on the net, >> everyone was going to publish everything... > > > Where do HYTELNET and archie fit in this fabric? Or the inter-site > capabilities of LISTPROC? I think I meant "LISTSERV" - the BITNET engine. -- Requiescas in pace o email Two identifying characteristics of System Administrators: Ex turpi causa non oritur actio Infallibility, and the ability to learn from their mistakes. (Adapted from Stephen Pinker) From jabley at hopcount.ca Fri May 31 13:56:18 2013 From: jabley at hopcount.ca (Joe Abley) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 16:56:18 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <51A905E0.2070503@gmail.com> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A905E0.2070503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <05D8CCC2-E7B2-402E-9ECF-268322F9DFF3@hopcount.ca> On 2013-05-31, at 16:19, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote: > What is rather sad, and typical of a major emerging problem, is > that the Wellington City Council web site only offers Council > minutes back to 2006, and my Google-foo has failed to find any > trace of material as ancient as 1990. No doubt they have the > minutes from 1890 and 1990 in their paper archives, but there is > a real problem with bit rot. I do remember Richard Naylor (back then, of WCC) telling me of their early efforts to publish bylaws and meeting minutes on a gopher server, something that Richard heard was used as an early example within Apple of how online services were important and could impact people in their daily lives. If you're interested in more details of the history it'd be well worth catching Richard the next time he's in Auckland, or seeking him out the next time you're in Wellington. Quite aside from this particular snippet, he has decades of anecdotes about connectivity in New Zealand and is hard to stop listening to. Joe From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Fri May 31 19:10:11 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 22:10:11 -0400 Subject: [ih] Copy of first web page discovered In-Reply-To: <05D8CCC2-E7B2-402E-9ECF-268322F9DFF3@hopcount.ca> References: <CAM9VJk3iTqiNaC9nGmvVTuBC5yf0q7fw2De80FJAtqFiEX4seQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A8369A.5040909@gmail.com> <51A849FE.2050205@dcrocker.net> <51A905E0.2070503@gmail.com> <05D8CCC2-E7B2-402E-9ECF-268322F9DFF3@hopcount.ca> Message-ID: <51A95803.1070400@meetinghouse.net> Joe Abley wrote: > On 2013-05-31, at 16:19, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com> wrote: > >> What is rather sad, and typical of a major emerging problem, is >> that the Wellington City Council web site only offers Council >> minutes back to 2006, and my Google-foo has failed to find any >> trace of material as ancient as 1990. No doubt they have the >> minutes from 1890 and 1990 in their paper archives, but there is >> a real problem with bit rot. > I do remember Richard Naylor (back then, of WCC) telling me of their early efforts to publish bylaws and meeting minutes on a gopher server, something that Richard heard was used as an early example within Apple of how online services were important and could impact people in their daily lives. > > If you're interested in more details of the history it'd be well worth catching Richard the next time he's in Auckland, or seeking him out the next time you're in Wellington. Quite aside from this particular snippet, he has decades of anecdotes about connectivity in New Zealand and is hard to stop listening to. > > It's actually pretty amazing how much early stuff got done with gopher. One of the very early information publishing services was gopher based (I'm spacing on the company and people, but they actually hosted our gopher for a while. For those with better memories, it was the Internet services company that shared a building with O'Reilly, in Cambridge.) In my days at the Center for Civic Networking, we hosted (to my knowledge) the first ever Federal rulemaking that involved Internet participation. The FTC was drafting rules for consumer protection on on-line sales. We (well Richard Civille in particular) convinced them that small businesses were the beneficiaries of online selling, but didn't have staff in DC watching rulemaking procedures. We ended up taking every piece of paper submitted against that rule-making, running it through an OCR, and putting the files up on a gopher server - with about 24 hour turn-around. The result was a lot more people had visibility into the process, a lot more comments came in (and from a lot of small businesses), and everyone seemed mostly happy with the resulting rules (i.e., they offered some real consumer protection while not being overly burdensome on small companies). Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra