From braden at isi.edu Wed Jan 2 09:36:00 2013 From: braden at isi.edu (Bob Braden) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 09:36:00 -0800 Subject: [ih] the Jan 1 1983 cutover to TCP/IP on the ARPAnet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E47000.7050405@isi.edu> Recollections from the mists of time... January 1, 1983 It was actually quite exciting for those of us who had been defining the protocols and building prototype implementations for roughly 5 years, to see TCP/IP really function in production. At the time, we of course had no idea of its ultimate impact on the world. I believe that the switchover was enforced by the ARPAnet operational organization, DCA, disabling the primary link used by the ARPAnet host-host protocol NCP. Link 1? I guess I could look it up. The switchover was pretty much a non-event for UCLA's central computer (IBM 360/91) that had been running my prototype implementation of TCP and IP for several years, in parallel with production remote job entry service using NCP. On the other hand, Dan Lynch had a tougher time. He was then operations manager at ISI, running a "server farm" of TOP-20 systems, and he worked around the clock for several days wringing bugs out of the TOPS-20 TCP. We did have fun. Does anyone still have an "I survived Jan 1, 1983" T shirt? Bob Braden From feinler at earthlink.net Wed Jan 2 09:52:20 2013 From: feinler at earthlink.net (Elizabeth Feinler) Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 09:52:20 -0800 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> The cutover to TCP/IP was interesting. Joe Haughney, DCA, had much earlier picked a cutover date out of a hat, so to speak, and chose Jan. 1, 1983. Nobody thought about the fact that most of the work to make the cutover happen was going to be done at universities and most universities would be on vacation on Jan. 1st. Also, the NIC started getting requests for Protocol Handbooks. We had not published one for quite a while because no funding had been approved, and the few we had on hand were woefully out of date. We refused to send out outdated information. I frantically called Jon Postel at ISI, and between the NIC and Jon we kludged together an up-to-date version of the PH that no one but the two of us had approved. The NIC published it with SRI funds, as I was reluctant to publish anything on government funds that had not been vetted and approved (a procedure that would probably have taken months.) Jon and I referred to this as the "plain brown wrapper version" of the Protocol Handbook, although I think the covers were actually buff. Many of you remember Jon;s TCP/IP "bake-offs", the sharing of implementations for the many operating systems out there at the time, and the incredible back-and-forth exchange of information and detail among the many dedicated implementors. I came in to SRI on cutover New Year's Eve, logged in, and panned around the net. It was amazing how many programmers were back and online, determined to make the cutover to TCP/IP a success. And as they say.....the rest is history. It was an incredible technological event to observe and be a small part of. Who knew 30 years ago what the impact of that event would be! Hats off to all who made it happen. Jake On Jan 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, internet-history-request at postel.org wrote: > Send internet-history mailing list submissions to > internet-history at postel.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > internet-history-request at postel.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > internet-history-owner at postel.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP (Bill Ricker) > 2. Re: 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP (Randy Bush) > 3. Re: 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP (Bill Ricker) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:05:28 -0500 > From: Bill Ricker > Subject: Re: [ih] 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP > To: internet-history at postel.org > Cc: mm-malts-l > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >>> From: IETF Chair >>> The ARPANET transitioned to TCP/IP on 1 January 1983. That was 30 >> years >>> ago, >> >> It's very hard indeed to fully grasp that it's only been 30 years. >> > > Right. Then tonight i should open the one 1983 vintage scotch in Mike > Padlipsky's collection with which to toast this anniversary. > > [Glenhaven "Speyside" 1983/1996 sherry-wood] > > -- > Bill > @n1vux bill.n1vux at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20121231/436f957d/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 07:20:53 +0900 > From: Randy Bush > Subject: Re: [ih] 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP > To: Paul Vixie > Cc: internet-history at postel.org, IETF Disgust > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > >> born in 1963, i felt throughout the 70's and 80's that i had been born >> too late, that all the fun stuff had been done already. now in the >> 10's i feel like we're just getting going and that i was probably born >> too soon, that all the fun stuff is coming 50 years from now. > > if you missed the '60s, indeed you were born too late. > > we watched the moon landing with our host's great grandmother who grew > up with gas lighting in her home. > > the pace accelerates. technology advances more and more rapidly. > civilization? not so much. > > randy > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:29:32 -0500 > From: Bill Ricker > Subject: Re: [ih] 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP > To: internet-history at postel.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> >> Right. Then tonight i should open the one 1983 vintage scotch in Mike >> Padlipsky's collection with which to toast this anniversary. >> [Glenhaven "Speyside" 1983/1996 sherry-wood] >> > > Argh. Typo in my data, it's a 1980/1996 16yo. If there's an actual 1982 or > 1983 it's unnoted. So much for symbolism. > > So I'll toast the cut-over with something of MAP's before switching to Snow > Phoenix or Macallan Cask Str for dessert. > > -- > Bill > @n1vux bill.n1vux at gmail.com > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20121231/078404fd/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > internet-history mailing list > internet-history at postel.org > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > End of internet-history Digest, Vol 70, Issue 1 > *********************************************** From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Wed Jan 2 09:56:46 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 12:56:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] the Jan 1 1983 cutover to TCP/IP on the ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <50E47000.7050405@isi.edu> References: <50E47000.7050405@isi.edu> Message-ID: <50E474DE.8060706@meetinghouse.net> Bob Braden wrote: > Recollections from the mists of time... January 1, 1983 > > It was actually quite exciting for those of us who had been defining > the protocols and building > prototype implementations for roughly 5 years, to see TCP/IP really > function in production. > At the time, we of course had no idea of its ultimate impact on the > world. > > I believe that the switchover was enforced by the ARPAnet operational > organization, DCA, > disabling the primary link used by the ARPAnet host-host protocol NCP. > Link 1? I guess > I could look it up. > On another list, Andy Malis wrote; "I guess I count as the expert in this case, because I wrote the IMP code that enforced the transition. It was a simple packet filter based on packet type (NCP vs. IP), NCP packets were dropped. I also administered a host-by-host list of hosts that had received extensions for various reasons - the code allowed exemptions on a per-host basis." -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Wed Jan 2 10:55:29 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 13:55:29 -0500 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> References: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <50E482A1.7060301@meetinghouse.net> Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > The cutover to TCP/IP was interesting. Joe Haughney, DCA, had much earlier picked a cutover date out of a hat, so to speak, and chose Jan. 1, 1983. Nobody thought about the fact that most of the work to make the cutover happen was going to be done at universities and most universities would be on vacation on Jan. 1st. Are you sure of that? There is a long tradition of DoD agencies issuing RFPs just in time for folks to work over holidays (so the govies can come back nice and refreshed to review proposals). Seems like this is in the same vein. :-) Miles -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From vint at google.com Wed Jan 2 21:22:45 2013 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 00:22:45 -0500 Subject: [ih] the Jan 1 1983 cutover to TCP/IP on the ARPAnet In-Reply-To: <50E474DE.8060706@meetinghouse.net> References: <50E47000.7050405@isi.edu> <50E474DE.8060706@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: Miles, that's a nice bit of history - thanks! vint On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 12:56 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Bob Braden wrote: > >> Recollections from the mists of time... January 1, 1983 >> >> It was actually quite exciting for those of us who had been defining the >> protocols and building >> prototype implementations for roughly 5 years, to see TCP/IP really >> function in production. >> At the time, we of course had no idea of its ultimate impact on the world. >> >> I believe that the switchover was enforced by the ARPAnet operational >> organization, DCA, >> disabling the primary link used by the ARPAnet host-host protocol NCP. >> Link 1? I guess >> I could look it up. >> >> On another list, Andy Malis wrote; > > "I guess I count as the expert in this case, because I wrote the IMP > code that enforced the transition. It was a simple packet filter based > on packet type (NCP vs. IP), NCP packets were dropped. I also > administered a host-by-host list of hosts that had received extensions > for various reasons - the code allowed exemptions on a per-host basis." > > > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vint at google.com Wed Jan 2 21:56:14 2013 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 00:56:14 -0500 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> References: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> Message-ID: the planning for the cutover started at least in 1981 per Jon Postel's cutover plan document. v On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 12:52 PM, Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > The cutover to TCP/IP was interesting. Joe Haughney, DCA, had much > earlier picked a cutover date out of a hat, so to speak, and chose Jan. 1, > 1983. Nobody thought about the fact that most of the work to make the > cutover happen was going to be done at universities and most universities > would be on vacation on Jan. 1st. Also, the NIC started getting requests > for Protocol Handbooks. We had not published one for quite a while because > no funding had been approved, and the few we had on hand were woefully out > of date. We refused to send out outdated information. I frantically > called Jon Postel at ISI, and between the NIC and Jon we kludged together > an up-to-date version of the PH that no one but the two of us had approved. > The NIC published it with SRI funds, as I was reluctant to publish anything > on government funds that had not been vetted and approved (a procedure that > would probably have taken months.) Jon and I referred to this as the > "plain brown wrapper version" of t! > he Protocol Handbook, although I think the covers were actually buff. > > Many of you remember Jon;s TCP/IP "bake-offs", the sharing of > implementations for the many operating systems out there at the time, and > the incredible back-and-forth exchange of information and detail among the > many dedicated implementors. I came in to SRI on cutover New Year's Eve, > logged in, and panned around the net. It was amazing how many programmers > were back and online, determined to make the cutover to TCP/IP a success. > And as they say.....the rest is history. It was an incredible > technological event to observe and be a small part of. > > Who knew 30 years ago what the impact of that event would be! > > Hats off to all who made it happen. > > Jake > On Jan 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, internet-history-request at postel.org wrote: > > > Send internet-history mailing list submissions to > > internet-history at postel.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > internet-history-request at postel.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > internet-history-owner at postel.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP (Bill Ricker) > > 2. Re: 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP (Randy Bush) > > 3. Re: 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP (Bill Ricker) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:05:28 -0500 > > From: Bill Ricker > > Subject: Re: [ih] 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP > > To: internet-history at postel.org > > Cc: mm-malts-l > > Message-ID: > > < > CAAbKA3XHxCjUVT6sjtzT3GUdL0sqNA7BTmrqqwP1ad-fuisSUw at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 2:27 PM, Noel Chiappa >wrote: > > > >>> From: IETF Chair > >>> The ARPANET transitioned to TCP/IP on 1 January 1983. That was 30 > >> years > >>> ago, > >> > >> It's very hard indeed to fully grasp that it's only been 30 years. > >> > > > > Right. Then tonight i should open the one 1983 vintage scotch in Mike > > Padlipsky's collection with which to toast this anniversary. > > > > [Glenhaven "Speyside" 1983/1996 sherry-wood] > > > > -- > > Bill > > @n1vux bill.n1vux at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20121231/436f957d/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 2 > > Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 07:20:53 +0900 > > From: Randy Bush > > Subject: Re: [ih] 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP > > To: Paul Vixie > > Cc: internet-history at postel.org, IETF Disgust > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > > >> born in 1963, i felt throughout the 70's and 80's that i had been born > >> too late, that all the fun stuff had been done already. now in the > >> 10's i feel like we're just getting going and that i was probably born > >> too soon, that all the fun stuff is coming 50 years from now. > > > > if you missed the '60s, indeed you were born too late. > > > > we watched the moon landing with our host's great grandmother who grew > > up with gas lighting in her home. > > > > the pace accelerates. technology advances more and more rapidly. > > civilization? not so much. > > > > randy > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > Message: 3 > > Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2012 17:29:32 -0500 > > From: Bill Ricker > > Subject: Re: [ih] 30th Anniversary of Transition to TCP/IP > > To: internet-history at postel.org > > Message-ID: > > 4mV1Kw3hO9nABG80rT+LUKmsx-9g0p2epfCw at mail.gmail.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > >> > >> Right. Then tonight i should open the one 1983 vintage scotch in Mike > >> Padlipsky's collection with which to toast this anniversary. > >> [Glenhaven "Speyside" 1983/1996 sherry-wood] > >> > > > > Argh. Typo in my data, it's a 1980/1996 16yo. If there's an actual 1982 > or > > 1983 it's unnoted. So much for symbolism. > > > > So I'll toast the cut-over with something of MAP's before switching to > Snow > > Phoenix or Macallan Cask Str for dessert. > > > > -- > > Bill > > @n1vux bill.n1vux at gmail.com > > -------------- next part -------------- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: > http://mailman.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/attachments/20121231/078404fd/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > internet-history mailing list > > internet-history at postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > > End of internet-history Digest, Vol 70, Issue 1 > > *********************************************** > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From joly at punkcast.com Thu Jan 3 01:25:28 2013 From: joly at punkcast.com (Joly MacFie) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 04:25:28 -0500 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> Message-ID: http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/01/marking-birth-of-modern-day-internet.html I've seen it commented elsewhere that this is remarkable for the pic of Vint without a tie! On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Vint Cerf wrote: > the planning for the cutover started at least in 1981 per Jon Postel's > cutover plan document. > > v > > -- --------------------------------------------------------------- Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org -------------------------------------------------------------- - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmamodio at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 05:22:43 2013 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:22:43 -0600 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> Message-ID: You bet, I was talking with friends yesterday that is one of the few images where you can see Vint without the three piece suit, tie and with hair !! But still one of my recent favorite pictures is when he got inducted into Starfleet Command https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/110518276636040092961/albums/5787639035527099681/5787639037584497826 Cheers Jorge On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 3:25 AM, Joly MacFie wrote: > > > http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2013/01/marking-birth-of-modern-day-internet.html > > I've seen it commented elsewhere that this is remarkable for the pic of > Vint without a tie! > > > On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 12:56 AM, Vint Cerf wrote: > >> the planning for the cutover started at least in 1981 per Jon Postel's >> cutover plan document. >> >> v >> >> > > > > -- > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Joly MacFie 218 565 9365 Skype:punkcast > WWWhatsup NYC - http://wwwhatsup.com > http://pinstand.com - http://punkcast.com > VP (Admin) - ISOC-NY - http://isoc-ny.org > -------------------------------------------------------------- > - > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmamodio at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 05:58:11 2013 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 07:58:11 -0600 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> Message-ID: BTW, isn't this one the actual button ? http://cla.calpoly.edu/~lcall/354/I-survived-tcp-transition.jpg -J -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From vint at google.com Thu Jan 3 11:26:25 2013 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2013 14:26:25 -0500 Subject: [ih] 30th Anniversary of TCP/IP In-Reply-To: References: <37714031-DF41-4A2C-A9C4-822507386833@earthlink.net> Message-ID: yes On Thu, Jan 3, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote: > > BTW, isn't this one the actual button ? > > http://cla.calpoly.edu/~lcall/354/I-survived-tcp-transition.jpg > > -J > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amckenzie3 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 5 15:38:09 2013 From: amckenzie3 at yahoo.com (Alex McKenzie) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 15:38:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan Message-ID: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://www.analogsf.com/2013_03/altview.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dhc2 at dcrocker.net Sat Jan 5 17:04:48 2013 From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 17:04:48 -0800 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50E8CDB0.2010800@dcrocker.net> On 1/5/2013 3:38 PM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > http://www.analogsf.com/2013_03/altview.shtml However, NSF actually set the stage for doing NSFNet beforehand in 1980, with CSNet, which essentially served as a test-marketing project: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET d/ -- Dave Crocker Brandenburg InternetWorking bbiw.net From galmes at tamu.edu Sat Jan 5 18:07:39 2013 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 20:07:39 -0600 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> Alex, I was UW Computer Science during the time period he writes of and I was not aware of him. But, myopia aside, his story rings true with me for several reasons. First, whatever the reason was, the fact that NSF funded and (more or less) organized an effort to connect all the US universities to the (NSFnet) Internet was clearly of huge importance to the growth of the Internet. Second, the specific driver, enabling effective remote access to the five or so centers from the 200 or so research universities, was both a demanding application and one that gave the NSF a defensible reason for funding and organizing the NSFnet effort. Third, that remote supercomputer application presented a clear motivation for much higher end-to-end capacity that the ARPAnet-based Internet that existed in 1984. In short, moving gigabyte files motivated T1 performance levels. Fourth, this story helps one understand the substantive ways in which Sen. Gore's efforts made a difference. -- Guy On 1/5/13 5:38 PM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > http://www.analogsf.com/2013_03/altview.shtml From vint at google.com Sat Jan 5 19:27:23 2013 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 22:27:23 -0500 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> Message-ID: I have no reason to dispute the facts in the story, either. However, the writer does fail to recognize the pioneering nature of the CSNET (it adopted TCP/IP thanks to Larry Landweber's 1980/81 intervention before Dennis Jennings made the same decision for the NSFNET around 1985. If I am remembering correctly, Dennis was involved with the super computer effort at the time he recommended that the nascent NSFNET also make use of TCP/IP. In Fall 1986, then-Senator Gore held a hearing at which Bob Kahn introduced the term "information infrastructure" and Senator Gore asked whether an optical fiber network should be constructed to link the Supercomputer centers together. The head of CISE at that time was Gordon Bell and he convened a Feb 1987 meeting in San Diego that led to the proposal for the National Research and Education Network program. I also seem to recall that the supercomputer center directors lobbied unsuccessfully to build their own, disconnected networks on the grounds that performance required specialization and control by each center [perhaps someone on the list can clarify that hazy memory]. They were overruled (assuming I am remembering this correctly) in favor of an NSF-wide network. vint On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Guy Almes wrote: > Alex, > I was UW Computer Science during the time period he writes of and I was > not aware of him. But, myopia aside, his story rings true with me for > several reasons. > First, whatever the reason was, the fact that NSF funded and (more or > less) organized an effort to connect all the US universities to the > (NSFnet) Internet was clearly of huge importance to the growth of the > Internet. > Second, the specific driver, enabling effective remote access to the > five or so centers from the 200 or so research universities, was both a > demanding application and one that gave the NSF a defensible reason for > funding and organizing the NSFnet effort. > Third, that remote supercomputer application presented a clear > motivation for much higher end-to-end capacity that the ARPAnet-based > Internet that existed in 1984. In short, moving gigabyte files motivated > T1 performance levels. > Fourth, this story helps one understand the substantive ways in which > Sen. Gore's efforts made a difference. > > -- Guy > > > On 1/5/13 5:38 PM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > >> http://www.analogsf.com/2013_**03/altview.shtml >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From louie at transsys.com Sat Jan 5 20:28:46 2013 From: louie at transsys.com (Louis Mamakos) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:28:46 -0500 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> Message-ID: <89F1B7A3-84F5-46E2-9EBB-9935E9CE148A@transsys.com> There were some supercomputer/HPC networks running around at the time, USAN ("University Satellite Network" or something) was one I remember, and there was a DoE network, I think, that was DECnet based. And the DECnet based NASA SPAN network, though Milo was at work with the IP-based NSN, too.. We had a few of these land at the University of Maryland, College Park campus and it was a tricky proposition to figure out how to plumb these things into a campus network infrastructure. While the operators of these networks might imagine a purpose-built network that was run somewhat in isolation, the burden of integrating these networks at all the "edges" into their customer's networks was still there and very problematic. While we still hadn't figured out generalized network connectivity over multiple backbone networks at the time, at least the Internet protocol suite imagined such a thing, and it was the NSFNET (and multiple NSF sponsored regional networks) that forced the architecture to really embrace multiple "core" networks, rather than the implicit ARPANET core ruled by EGP at the time. Louis Mamakos On Jan 5, 2013, at 10:27 PM, Vint Cerf wrote: > I have no reason to dispute the facts in the story, either. However, the writer does fail to recognize the pioneering nature of the CSNET (it adopted TCP/IP thanks to Larry Landweber's 1980/81 intervention before Dennis Jennings made the same decision for the NSFNET around 1985. If I am remembering correctly, Dennis was involved with the super computer effort at the time he recommended that the nascent NSFNET also make use of TCP/IP. In Fall 1986, then-Senator Gore held a hearing at which Bob Kahn introduced the term "information infrastructure" and Senator Gore asked whether an optical fiber network should be constructed to link the Supercomputer centers together. The head of CISE at that time was Gordon Bell and he convened a Feb 1987 meeting in San Diego that led to the proposal for the National Research and Education Network program. I also seem to recall that the supercomputer center directors lobbied unsuccessfully to build their own, disconnected networks on the grounds that performance required specialization and control by each center [perhaps someone on the list can clarify that hazy memory]. They were overruled (assuming I am remembering this correctly) in favor of an NSF-wide network. > > vint > > > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Guy Almes wrote: > Alex, > I was UW Computer Science during the time period he writes of and I was not aware of him. But, myopia aside, his story rings true with me for several reasons. > First, whatever the reason was, the fact that NSF funded and (more or less) organized an effort to connect all the US universities to the (NSFnet) Internet was clearly of huge importance to the growth of the Internet. > Second, the specific driver, enabling effective remote access to the five or so centers from the 200 or so research universities, was both a demanding application and one that gave the NSF a defensible reason for funding and organizing the NSFnet effort. > Third, that remote supercomputer application presented a clear motivation for much higher end-to-end capacity that the ARPAnet-based Internet that existed in 1984. In short, moving gigabyte files motivated T1 performance levels. > Fourth, this story helps one understand the substantive ways in which Sen. Gore's efforts made a difference. > > -- Guy > > > On 1/5/13 5:38 PM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > http://www.analogsf.com/2013_03/altview.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net Sat Jan 5 20:29:58 2013 From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 23:29:58 -0500 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> Message-ID: <50E8FDC6.2010409@meetinghouse.net> Vint Cerf wrote: > I have no reason to dispute the facts in the story, either. However, > the writer does fail to recognize the pioneering nature of the CSNET > (it adopted TCP/IP thanks to Larry Landweber's 1980/81 intervention > before Dennis Jennings made the same decision for the NSFNET around > 1985. If I am remembering correctly, Dennis was involved with the > super computer effort at the time he recommended that the nascent > NSFNET also make use of TCP/IP. In Fall 1986, then-Senator Gore held a > hearing at which Bob Kahn introduced the term "information > infrastructure" and Senator Gore asked whether an optical fiber > network should be constructed to link the Supercomputer centers > together. The head of CISE at that time was Gordon Bell and he > convened a Feb 1987 meeting in San Diego that led to the proposal for > the National Research and Education Network program. I also seem to > recall that the supercomputer center directors lobbied unsuccessfully > to build their own, disconnected networks on the grounds that > performance required specialization and control by each center > [perhaps someone on the list can clarify that hazy memory]. They were > overruled (assuming I am remembering this correctly) in favor of an > NSF-wide network. > I recall that some of the supercomputer centers DID have their own networks. Along those lines, was not NEARnet late to the NSFnet - pulled together as a last minute response to the imminent shutdown of JVNCnet? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra From jmamodio at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 21:11:05 2013 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:11:05 -0600 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In a Digital World, how much credit you can give to an "Analog" publication ? I remember that on the late 80's when we were working on getting Argentina connected to some research network, it became USG policy to promote only connections the the Internet and NSF was generous enough to pay for a missing link to interconnect a satellite link drop we had in the Argentinean UN Permanent Mission with a router port in SURANet thatnks to Glenn Ricart's and the UMD folks that offered us a "free" port. We (not all of us, many, including myself strongly believed that the future was to being part of Internet) had a local discussion about if connecting to Bitnet, or CSNet, etc. Stephen Wolf from NSF at that time helped settle the "dispute" making it clear that the NSF will sponsor our connection *if and only if* it was to the Internet. This was before NSF (Steve Goldstein) made the deal with Sprint for ICM (International Connections Manager.) My .02 -J On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 5:38 PM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > http://www.analogsf.com/2013_03/altview.shtml > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jmamodio at gmail.com Sat Jan 5 21:20:47 2013 From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2013 23:20:47 -0600 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: <50E8FDC6.2010409@meetinghouse.net> References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> <50E8FDC6.2010409@meetinghouse.net> Message-ID: JVNCNet didn't get shutdown, the JVNC Supercomputer Center got shutdown, the network continued to operate from Princeton University and later Sergio Heker who worked there obtained the funds to transition it as a private enterprise (the company was called Global Enterprise Services, Inc.). I took over operations and engineering for JVCNet before being acquired by VERIO. We were still providing connectivity to many universities and academic institutions and I had to still file some reports with NSF since part of the connection costs provided like by MCI were still funded by NSF. I remember having on our office a lot of junk left over from the JVNC center. -J On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: > Vint Cerf wrote: > >> I have no reason to dispute the facts in the story, either. However, the >> writer does fail to recognize the pioneering nature of the CSNET (it >> adopted TCP/IP thanks to Larry Landweber's 1980/81 intervention before >> Dennis Jennings made the same decision for the NSFNET around 1985. If I am >> remembering correctly, Dennis was involved with the super computer effort >> at the time he recommended that the nascent NSFNET also make use of TCP/IP. >> In Fall 1986, then-Senator Gore held a hearing at which Bob Kahn introduced >> the term "information infrastructure" and Senator Gore asked whether an >> optical fiber network should be constructed to link the Supercomputer >> centers together. The head of CISE at that time was Gordon Bell and he >> convened a Feb 1987 meeting in San Diego that led to the proposal for the >> National Research and Education Network program. I also seem to recall that >> the supercomputer center directors lobbied unsuccessfully to build their >> own, disconnected networks on the grounds that performance required >> specialization and control by each center [perhaps someone on the list can >> clarify that hazy memory]. They were overruled (assuming I am remembering >> this correctly) in favor of an NSF-wide network. >> >> > I recall that some of the supercomputer centers DID have their own > networks. Along those lines, was not NEARnet late to the NSFnet - pulled > together as a last minute response to the imminent shutdown of JVNCnet? > > Miles Fidelman > > > -- > In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. > In practice, there is. .... Yogi Berra > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From galmes at tamu.edu Sat Jan 5 21:21:15 2013 From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes) Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2013 23:21:15 -0600 Subject: [ih] Success has many fathers but failure is an orphan In-Reply-To: References: <1357429089.40535.YahooMailNeo@web142405.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <50E8DC6B.803@tamu.edu> Message-ID: <50E909CB.50108@tamu.edu> Vint, I agree very much about "However, the writer does fail to recognize ..." When I read the article, it seemed obvious that (a) the writer was failing to recognize *lots* of other things and (b) that (and maybe this is just the way that I read it) that the writer was writing as though it was obvious to his readers that he was doing so. This is what I meant by myopia. One thing that makes this "Internet history" list interesting to me is the richness of all these different myopic stories. But, as I say, I had never heard of John Cramer. When I read his note, my first reaction was to be miffed that while he was at UW Physics, he had not recognized the efforts of us at UW Computer Science to secure an ARPAnet connection for UW. But I took his "How Al Gore and I Invented the Internet" to be obvious tongue-firmly-in-cheek humor and read on. I actually found his story about the little 1984 committee charming. He made no pretense to having contributed anything to the technology or the building of the Internet. But if he played even a very small part in convincing the NSF that there needed to be a network adequate for moving gigabyte files between the small number of supercomputer centers and the much larger number of research universities where the users of those centers were, I'd take that as an interesting story. I very much agree with your positive comments about CSNET, the fall 1986 hearings, and the NREN efforts. But (and here I'm just showing my ignorance) I had not previously heard Cramer's story about a science user pressing in 1984 for effective remote access to the supercomputers (implicitly from all the major research universities) as being essential. Regards, -- Guy On 1/5/13 9:27 PM, Vint Cerf wrote: > I have no reason to dispute the facts in the story, either. However, the > writer does fail to recognize the pioneering nature of the CSNET (it > adopted TCP/IP thanks to Larry Landweber's 1980/81 intervention before > Dennis Jennings made the same decision for the NSFNET around 1985. If I > am remembering correctly, Dennis was involved with the super computer > effort at the time he recommended that the nascent NSFNET also make use > of TCP/IP. In Fall 1986, then-Senator Gore held a hearing at which Bob > Kahn introduced the term "information infrastructure" and Senator Gore > asked whether an optical fiber network should be constructed to link the > Supercomputer centers together. The head of CISE at that time was Gordon > Bell and he convened a Feb 1987 meeting in San Diego that led to the > proposal for the National Research and Education Network program. I also > seem to recall that the supercomputer center directors lobbied > unsuccessfully to build their own, disconnected networks on the grounds > that performance required specialization and control by each center > [perhaps someone on the list can clarify that hazy memory]. They were > overruled (assuming I am remembering this correctly) in favor of an > NSF-wide network. > > vint > > > > On Sat, Jan 5, 2013 at 9:07 PM, Guy Almes > wrote: > > Alex, > I was UW Computer Science during the time period he writes of and > I was not aware of him. But, myopia aside, his story rings true > with me for several reasons. > First, whatever the reason was, the fact that NSF funded and > (more or less) organized an effort to connect all the US > universities to the (NSFnet) Internet was clearly of huge importance > to the growth of the Internet. > Second, the specific driver, enabling effective remote access to > the five or so centers from the 200 or so research universities, was > both a demanding application and one that gave the NSF a defensible > reason for funding and organizing the NSFnet effort. > Third, that remote supercomputer application presented a clear > motivation for much higher end-to-end capacity that the > ARPAnet-based Internet that existed in 1984. In short, moving > gigabyte files motivated T1 performance levels. > Fourth, this story helps one understand the substantive ways in > which Sen. Gore's efforts made a difference. > > -- Guy > > > On 1/5/13 5:38 PM, Alex McKenzie wrote: > > http://www.analogsf.com/2013___03/altview.shtml > > > From braden at isi.edu Sun Jan 6 14:19:14 2013 From: braden at isi.edu (Bob Braden) Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2013 14:19:14 -0800 Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 70, Issue 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50E9F862.2060207@isi.edu> On 1/5/2013 8:30 PM,Louis Mamakos wrote: > There were some supercomputer/HPC networks running around at the time, USAN ("University Satellite Network" or something) was one I remember, and there was a DoE network, I think, that was DECnet based. And the DECnet based NASA SPAN network, though Milo was at work with the IP-based NSN, too. A DoE lab (I forget whether it was LBNL or LLNL) came up with their own solution to the imaginary problem "TCP/IP is too slow for supercomputer data transfe" with their MFENET (pronounced "muff-ee-net") protocol suite I was a member of an Internet-centric design review team, and we gleefully tore apart their protocol suite. Shortly afterwards, DoE cancelled the MFENET project and wiped up the blood from the floor. It was fun... Bob Braden From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jan 8 04:42:14 2013 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 07:42:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [ih] Mark Crispin: 1956 - 2012 Message-ID: <20130108124214.8CD0D18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Sad news... Noel -------- Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:53:18 +0100 From: Eliot Lear It's probably escaped our notice because of the holidays, Mark Crispin passed away on the 28th of December. I didn't know Mark too well, but he was a very important visionary. I first enjoyed his work as a user of the MM program on TOPS-20, upon which he based the design of IMAP. MM featured strong searching and marking capabilities, as well as all the customization a person could want. It was through MM that people individualized there messages with funny headers or a cute name. And it was all so easy to use. Mark was constantly reminding us about that, and how UNIX's interface could always stand improvement. Mark was an unabashed TOPS-20 fan. Before the world had fully converged on vt100 semantics, Mark worked to standardize SUPDUP and the SUPDUP option. He was also early to recognize the limitations of a single host table. Mark's sense of humor brought us RFC-748, the Telnet randomly-lose option, which was the first April 1 RFC. He also wrote another such RFC for UTF-9 and UTF-10. Most of us benefit from Mark's work today through our use of IMAP, which followed Einstein's advice by having a protocol that was as simple as possible to tackle the necessary problems, but no simpler. We know this because our first attempt was POP, which was too simple. Mark knew he had hit the balance right because he made benefited from his experience with lots of running code and direct work with many end users. I will miss his quirkiness, his cowboy boots, and his recommendations for the best Japanese food in a town where the IETF would visit, and I will miss the contributions he should have had more time to make. Eliot From yasuhiro at jprs.co.jp Tue Jan 8 05:19:09 2013 From: yasuhiro at jprs.co.jp (Yasuhiro Orange Morishita) Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 22:19:09 +0900 (JST) Subject: [ih] Mark Crispin: 1956 - 2012 In-Reply-To: <20130108124214.8CD0D18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20130108124214.8CD0D18C0FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20130108.221909.155341668.yasuhiro@jprs.co.jp> Hello, It's very sad news. I remember his funny netnews articles, especially his impressive signature, "Gaijin! Gaijin!"... I dig'ed the hostname, shown as his email address, and surprisingly, it's still registered. dig +short Tomobiki-Cho.CAC.Washington.EDU 140.142.110.27 RIP... -- Yasuhiro 'Orange' Morishita From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2013 07:42:14 -0500 (EST) > Sad news... > > Noel > > -------- > > Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2013 10:53:18 +0100 > From: Eliot Lear > > It's probably escaped our notice because of the holidays, Mark Crispin > passed away on the 28th of December. I didn't know Mark too well, but > he was a very important visionary. > > I first enjoyed his work as a user of the MM program on TOPS-20, upon > which he based the design of IMAP. MM featured strong searching and > marking capabilities, as well as all the customization a person could > want. It was through MM that people individualized there messages with > funny headers or a cute name. And it was all so easy to use. Mark was > constantly reminding us about that, and how UNIX's interface could > always stand improvement. Mark was an unabashed TOPS-20 fan. > > Before the world had fully converged on vt100 semantics, Mark worked to > standardize SUPDUP and the SUPDUP option. He was also early to > recognize the limitations of a single host table. > > Mark's sense of humor brought us RFC-748, the Telnet randomly-lose > option, which was the first April 1 RFC. He also wrote another such RFC > for UTF-9 and UTF-10. > > Most of us benefit from Mark's work today through our use of IMAP, which > followed Einstein's advice by having a protocol that was as simple as > possible to tackle the necessary problems, but no simpler. We know this > because our first attempt was POP, which was too simple. Mark knew he > had hit the balance right because he made benefited from his experience > with lots of running code and direct work with many end users. > > I will miss his quirkiness, his cowboy boots, and his recommendations > for the best Japanese food in a town where the IETF would visit, and I > will miss the contributions he should have had more time to make. > > Eliot > From craig at aland.bbn.com Thu Jan 10 10:13:00 2013 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:13:00 -0500 Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 70, Issue 5 Message-ID: <20130110181300.A80A428E1D7@aland.bbn.com> > On 1/5/2013 8:30 PM,Louis Mamakos wrote: > > There were some supercomputer/HPC networks running around at the time, USAN > ("University Satellite Network" or something) was one I remember, and there > was a DoE network, I think, that was DECnet based. And the DECnet based NASA > SPAN network, though Milo was at work with the IP-based NSN, too. > A DoE lab (I forget whether it was LBNL or LLNL) came up with their own > solution to the imaginary > problem "TCP/IP is too slow for supercomputer data transfe" with their > MFENET > (pronounced "muff-ee-net") protocol suite I was a member of an > Internet-centric design review team, > and we gleefully tore apart their protocol suite. Shortly afterwards, > DoE cancelled the MFENET > project and wiped up the blood from the floor. It was fun... Kahin and Abbate (in their 1995 book on Standards Policy) date this review to 1989. And it points up an important issue -- the Internet matured very fast in the late 1980s as its growth led to "educating experiences". In the first half of the 1980s, the NRC could release a report that plausibly claimed no big difference between TCP/IP and OSI. By 1989, that claim was clearly false (and false for most protocol suites when compared with TCP/IP). Thanks! Craig