From dannycohen at ieee.org  Thu Aug  1 13:05:03 2013
From: dannycohen at ieee.org (Danny Cohen)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 13:05:03 -0700
Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 77, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1375383612.29754.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.3.1375383612.29754.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <E11DCD12-4A8F-4546-A75E-BDA50C5D3219@ieee.org>

P77_
-

On Aug 1, 2013, at 12:00 PM, internet-history-request at postel.org wrote:

> please


From jcurran at istaff.org  Thu Aug  1 20:15:41 2013
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Thu, 1 Aug 2013 23:15:41 -0400
Subject: [ih] [IP] OSI: The Internet That Wasn't
In-Reply-To: <a06240808ce1e9f98acd9@[10.10.24.75]>
References: <CAKx4trj_Ec12SdODiSvMni2E9m2zKuL_Pq4DvFCHKqyaHP-JVQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<51F7BF36.2060702@meetinghouse.net> <51F89462.7080002@dcrocker.net>
	<CAPv4CP8Vfja=U+H+Qku4dRSLridy53NJx4N6HeR-MAVYjtQ3SQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<51F8C59F.6060407@dcrocker.net>
	<CAPv4CP_9mAiSJHvUFZPW=omhi0=7fa0uaU9ESJtFV6c4kmt_HA@mail.gmail.com>
	<a06240808ce1e9f98acd9@[10.10.24.75]>
Message-ID: <B6A566BB-9FE1-439F-B4E3-E8BBF2EDEC70@istaff.org>

On Jul 31, 2013, at 7:15 AM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:

> As to IPv6 turning out different, ahh soon they forget.  The ground rules were set so that the answer had to be anything but CLNP.  

John - 
 
  Can you elaborate?

/John

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From brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com  Thu Aug  1 21:20:29 2013
From: brian.e.carpenter at gmail.com (Brian E Carpenter)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 16:20:29 +1200
Subject: [ih] [IP] OSI: The Internet That Wasn't
In-Reply-To: <B6A566BB-9FE1-439F-B4E3-E8BBF2EDEC70@istaff.org>
References: <CAKx4trj_Ec12SdODiSvMni2E9m2zKuL_Pq4DvFCHKqyaHP-JVQ@mail.gmail.com>	<51F7BF36.2060702@meetinghouse.net>
	<51F89462.7080002@dcrocker.net>	<CAPv4CP8Vfja=U+H+Qku4dRSLridy53NJx4N6HeR-MAVYjtQ3SQ@mail.gmail.com>	<51F8C59F.6060407@dcrocker.net>	<CAPv4CP_9mAiSJHvUFZPW=omhi0=7fa0uaU9ESJtFV6c4kmt_HA@mail.gmail.com>	<a06240808ce1e9f98acd9@[10.10.24.75]>
	<B6A566BB-9FE1-439F-B4E3-E8BBF2EDEC70@istaff.org>
Message-ID: <51FB338D.2000207@gmail.com>

On 02/08/2013 15:15, John Curran wrote:
> On Jul 31, 2013, at 7:15 AM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
> 
>> As to IPv6 turning out different, ahh soon they forget.  The ground rules were set so that the answer had to be anything but CLNP.  
> 
> John - 
>  
>   Can you elaborate?
> 
> /John

I'm not John or /John, but I was there, and it's certainly true that
IETF change control of the foundational protocol was a very major issue
in some minds. I wouldn't say it was a ground rule, however.

The technical evaluation included CLNP/TUBA/FOOBAR until a very late
stage (May 1994) but at that point a proposal review that I drafted said:

"Nevertheless, a number of important IPng
 requirements are not met by TUBA as it stands, and modifications to
 CLNP are probably needed to meet them."

Since I entered the IPng process as a CLNP advocate, I didn't write
this lightly.

   Brian


From scott.brim at gmail.com  Fri Aug  2 00:29:51 2013
From: scott.brim at gmail.com (Scott Brim)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:29:51 +0200
Subject: [ih] [IP] OSI: The Internet That Wasn't
In-Reply-To: <51FB338D.2000207@gmail.com>
References: <CAKx4trj_Ec12SdODiSvMni2E9m2zKuL_Pq4DvFCHKqyaHP-JVQ@mail.gmail.com>	<51F7BF36.2060702@meetinghouse.net>
	<51F89462.7080002@dcrocker.net>	<CAPv4CP8Vfja=U+H+Qku4dRSLridy53NJx4N6HeR-MAVYjtQ3SQ@mail.gmail.com>	<51F8C59F.6060407@dcrocker.net>	<CAPv4CP_9mAiSJHvUFZPW=omhi0=7fa0uaU9ESJtFV6c4kmt_HA@mail.gmail.com>	<a06240808ce1e9f98acd9@[10.10.24.75]>
	<B6A566BB-9FE1-439F-B4E3-E8BBF2EDEC70@istaff.org>
	<51FB338D.2000207@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51FB5FEF.60309@gmail.com>

On 08/02/13 06:20, Brian E Carpenter allegedly wrote:
> On 02/08/2013 15:15, John Curran wrote:
>> On Jul 31, 2013, at 7:15 AM, John Day <jeanjour at comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>> As to IPv6 turning out different, ahh soon they forget.  The ground rules were set so that the answer had to be anything but CLNP.  
>>
>> John - 
>>  
>>   Can you elaborate?
>>
>> /John
> 
> I'm not John or /John, but I was there, and it's certainly true that
> IETF change control of the foundational protocol was a very major issue
> in some minds. I wouldn't say it was a ground rule, however.

iirc the issue of change control was brought up as a justification for
objections to CLNP, not as a reason before the objection.



From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Fri Aug  2 00:46:02 2013
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 2013 09:46:02 +0200
Subject: [ih] [IP] OSI: The Internet That Wasn't
In-Reply-To: <51FB5FEF.60309@gmail.com>
References: <CAKx4trj_Ec12SdODiSvMni2E9m2zKuL_Pq4DvFCHKqyaHP-JVQ@mail.gmail.com>	<51F7BF36.2060702@meetinghouse.net>
	<51F89462.7080002@dcrocker.net>	<CAPv4CP8Vfja=U+H+Qku4dRSLridy53NJx4N6HeR-MAVYjtQ3SQ@mail.gmail.com>	<51F8C59F.6060407@dcrocker.net>	<CAPv4CP_9mAiSJHvUFZPW=omhi0=7fa0uaU9ESJtFV6c4kmt_HA@mail.gmail.com>	<a06240808ce1e9f98acd9@[10.10.24.75]>
	<B6A566BB-9FE1-439F-B4E3-E8BBF2EDEC70@istaff.org>
	<51FB338D.2000207@gmail.com> <51FB5FEF.60309@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <51FB63BA.7060502@dcrocker.net>

On 8/2/2013 9:29 AM, Scott Brim wrote:
> iirc the issue of change control was brought up as a justification for
> objections to CLNP, not as a reason before the objection.


I remember it being raised during assorted "briefings" the IESG was 
given, probably before the Kobe blowup -- no doubt after -- and it's in 
the minutes taken of the Kobe meeting.

We have plenty of other focus on change control, for any technology we 
import, to make the issue automatically credible in my view, especially 
for a core technology to the Internet suite.

d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net


From vincentglad at gmail.com  Fri Aug 30 13:39:06 2013
From: vincentglad at gmail.com (Vincent Glad)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 22:39:06 +0200
Subject: [ih] Love affairs on the very first virtual communities ?
Message-ID: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>

Hi everybody,

I'm a french journalist for Les Inrockuptibles (a cultural magazine).

I'm working on a paper about the story of the "online flirt", and
especially about the period before the web.

My investigation begins in wondering if there already were love affairs, on
the very first virtual communities before our french Minitel (such as the
Community Memory, Usenet, BBS or even, why not, the Arpanet)

Have anyone already been studying this specific matter, or could anyone
direct me to a research worker who has been working on it ? Otherwise, do
you know any witness of the time who knows his topic, especially a
Community Memory's user ?

Thanks in advance,


Vincent Glad.
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From jeanjour at comcast.net  Fri Aug 30 14:26:42 2013
From: jeanjour at comcast.net (John Day)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:26:42 -0400
Subject: [ih] Love affairs on the very first virtual communities ?
In-Reply-To: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <a062408f7ce46bdf8ad54@[155.41.124.135]>

May have to be careful on that one.  ;-)  They may still be a sensitive issue.

In the ARPANET days, I heard some rumors, but my lips are sealed.  ;-)

At 10:39 PM +0200 8/30/13, Vincent Glad wrote:
>Hi everybody,
>
>I'm a french journalist for Les Inrockuptibles (a cultural magazine).
>
>I'm working on a paper about the story of the "online flirt", and 
>especially about the period before the web.
>
>My investigation begins in wondering if there already were love 
>affairs, on the very first virtual communities before our french 
>Minitel (such as the Community Memory, Usenet, BBS or even, why not, 
>the Arpanet)
>
>Have anyone already been studying this specific matter, or could 
>anyone direct me to a research worker who has been working on it ? 
>Otherwise, do you know any witness of the time who knows his topic, 
>especially a Community Memory's user ?
>
>Thanks in advance,
>
>
>Vincent Glad.



From galmes at tamu.edu  Fri Aug 30 16:18:07 2013
From: galmes at tamu.edu (Guy Almes)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:18:07 -0500
Subject: [ih] Love affairs on the very first virtual communities ?
In-Reply-To: <a062408f7ce46bdf8ad54@[155.41.124.135]>
References: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
	<a062408f7ce46bdf8ad54@[155.41.124.135]>
Message-ID: <5221282F.4000307@tamu.edu>

   In Standage's "Victorian Internet", there's a nice chapter on a pair 
of telegraphers falling in love and marrying.  If memory serves, they 
first met (physically) on the day of their wedding.
   This may or may not be what Vincent had in mind, but it was 
definitely pre-Minitel. ;-)
	-- Guy

On 8/30/13 4:26 PM, John Day wrote:
> May have to be careful on that one.  ;-)  They may still be a sensitive
> issue.
>
> In the ARPANET days, I heard some rumors, but my lips are sealed.  ;-)
>
> At 10:39 PM +0200 8/30/13, Vincent Glad wrote:
>> Hi everybody,
>>
>> I'm a french journalist for Les Inrockuptibles (a cultural magazine).
>>
>> I'm working on a paper about the story of the "online flirt", and
>> especially about the period before the web.
>>
>> My investigation begins in wondering if there already were love
>> affairs, on the very first virtual communities before our french
>> Minitel (such as the Community Memory, Usenet, BBS or even, why not,
>> the Arpanet)
>>
>> Have anyone already been studying this specific matter, or could
>> anyone direct me to a research worker who has been working on it ?
>> Otherwise, do you know any witness of the time who knows his topic,
>> especially a Community Memory's user ?
>>
>> Thanks in advance,
>>
>>
>> Vincent Glad.
>
>


From lpress at csudh.edu  Fri Aug 30 17:18:17 2013
From: lpress at csudh.edu (Larry Press)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 17:18:17 -0700
Subject: [ih] Love affairs on the very first virtual communities ?
In-Reply-To: <a062408f7ce46bdf8ad54@[155.41.124.135]>
References: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
	<a062408f7ce46bdf8ad54@[155.41.124.135]>
Message-ID: <52213649.1080504@csudh.edu>

I returned to teaching in the mid 80s and assigned students to find a 
pen pal in a foreign country -- using usenet news.  One of the students 
-- who was from Costa Rica -- met a guy from the Netherlands.  About 
five years later they invited me to their wedding and they are now Web 
developers in San Francisco.


From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Fri Aug 30 18:10:04 2013
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave Crocker)
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2013 18:10:04 -0700
Subject: [ih] Love affairs on the very first virtual communities ?
In-Reply-To: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAEysuEY=viTcf2p-h016qrTSqpXkuFRkudCwgjUghtOtX4K0Gw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5221426C.4040801@dcrocker.net>

On 8/30/2013 1:39 PM, Vincent Glad wrote:
> Hi everybody,
>
> I'm a french journalist for Les Inrockuptibles (a cultural magazine).
>
> I'm working on a paper about the story of the "online flirt", and
> especially about the period before the web.
>
> My investigation begins in wondering if there already were love affairs,
> on the very first virtual communities before our french Minitel (such as
> the Community Memory, Usenet, BBS or even, why not, the Arpanet)



One of the earliest was Carl Sunshine and his girlfriend-then-wife 
(Tova?).  He graduated from UCLA around 1972 and went off to Stanford 
graduate school.

I was doing various support stuff at the UCLA Arpanet project and was 
told to give Tova access to the terminal room so they could instant 
message each other.  (The actual facility was terminal-to-terminal, 
character-at-a-time "link"ing, as I recall via the Tenex operating 
system from BBN.)  they used this regularly; long distance telephone 
calls were /very/ expensive in those days.


d/

-- 
Dave Crocker
Brandenburg InternetWorking
bbiw.net