From vint at google.com  Tue Sep  6 06:39:09 2011
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Tue, 6 Sep 2011 09:39:09 -0400
Subject: [ih] Fwd: A new reference source - it's free and we would
	appreciate your input!
In-Reply-To: <0f96b4aaa88be9f8796a071db2b0b9bc@thepctimeline.com>
References: <0f96b4aaa88be9f8796a071db2b0b9bc@thepctimeline.com>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggdXp_iS_ji2+xSgCqKUOYAT_gJ2uDLxak=fuetN1sk2Ag@mail.gmail.com>

thought you might be interested in this new source.

vint



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From:  <bobd at thepcpioneers.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:04 AM
Subject: A new reference source - it's free and we would appreciate your input!
To: vint.cerf at google.com


?*We are writing to you because you are featured in this new
material:*

?the *new resource is **thePCpioneers.com* that celebrates the people
who brought us the PC and the Net. It?s much more about the
individuals than the products
?first the scene is set by looking at the early use of numbers,
devices and calculators, mainframes and minicomputers, but then the
site concentrates on the last forty years - from the first use of the
term ?personal computer? right up to today with its billion-plus
users.
?one way of exploring the material is by following one of our *themes*
<http://thepcstory.com/themes/>
?or *threads* <http://thepcstory.com/threads/>

?the site is as comprehensive as we could make it *- yet it is still
work in progress!*

Its *sister site ** wikiPCpedia.com* <http://www.wikipcpedia.com/>
?is a *wiki site* - so that he material will evolve collaboratively.
Users are prompted to:

?contribute their thoughts about the existing material and amend it
where necessary
?report their own experiences and memories to expand the content
?provide audio and video accounts for inclusion.
?In this way the site will become the ultimate repository for computer
history information, and is therefore readily available at
everyone?s fingertips.

It?s also a living database! We have accumulated a great deal of
useful reference material:

?*thePCpioneers.com* <http://www.thepcpioneers.com/>
?already has details of the main 1,200+ PC pioneers featured in the
story of the PC and the Net - and this will be constantly expanded and
updated
?*thePCtimeline.com* <http://www.thepctimeline.com/>
?chronologically records more than 3,400 significant events in the
development of the PC and the Net ? this will grow as users add more
details, new events
?*thePCstory.com* <http://www.thepcstory.com/>
?has accumulated data on 1,000+ organisations that played a part in
the story ? this too will expand through user input (this is still
in process).

Here?s where your assistance would be invaluable:

?Of course we would certainly appreciate your passing on the word
about this new resource to your colleagues, contacts, and friends.
?But we would also welcome your assistance by commenting on how we
have presented your roles and contributions ? have we missed or
misrepresented anything?

Regards
Bob Denton
bobd at thePCpioneers.com <mailto:bob at thePCpioneers.com>


To unsubscribe click here
http://thepctimeline.com/newsletters/?p=unsubscribe&uid=ad405e0068519e04bb215bd608b64df2



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From dgale at internethistoryarchive.org  Thu Sep  8 17:38:53 2011
From: dgale at internethistoryarchive.org (dgale at internethistoryarchive.org)
Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 00:38:53 +0000
Subject: [ih] Fwd: A new reference source - it's free and we
 would	appreciate your input!
Message-ID: <W2866627158285211315528733@webmail21>

thanks vint.  we are returning from a vacation in Alaska and will follow up with them when i get back.  

doug
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Vint Cerf [mailto:vint at google.com]
>Sent: Tuesday, September 6, 2011 09:39 AM
>To: 'internet history'
>Subject: [ih] Fwd: A new reference source - it's free and we would	appreciate your input!
>
>thought you might be interested in this new source.
>
>vint
>
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>From:  <bobd at thepcpioneers.com>
>Date: Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 9:04 AM
>Subject: A new reference source - it's free and we would appreciate your input!
>To: vint.cerf at google.com
>
>
>?*We are writing to you because you are featured in this new
>material:*
>
>?the *new resource is **thePCpioneers.com* that celebrates the people
>who brought us the PC and the Net. It?s much more about the
>individuals than the products
>?first the scene is set by looking at the early use of numbers,
>devices and calculators, mainframes and minicomputers, but then the
>site concentrates on the last forty years - from the first use of the
>term ?personal computer? right up to today with its billion-plus
>users.
>?one way of exploring the material is by following one of our *themes*
><http://thepcstory.com/themes/>
>?or *threads* <http://thepcstory.com/threads/>
>
>?the site is as comprehensive as we could make it *- yet it is still
>work in progress!*
>
>Its *sister site ** wikiPCpedia.com* <http://www.wikipcpedia.com/>
>?is a *wiki site* - so that he material will evolve collaboratively.
>Users are prompted to:
>
>?contribute their thoughts about the existing material and amend it
>where necessary
>?report their own experiences and memories to expand the content
>?provide audio and video accounts for inclusion.
>?In this way the site will become the ultimate repository for computer
>history information, and is therefore readily available at
>everyone?s fingertips.
>
>It?s also a living database! We have accumulated a great deal of
>useful reference material:
>
>?*thePCpioneers.com* <http://www.thepcpioneers.com/>
>?already has details of the main 1,200+ PC pioneers featured in the
>story of the PC and the Net - and this will be constantly expanded and
>updated
>?*thePCtimeline.com* <http://www.thepctimeline.com/>
>?chronologically records more than 3,400 significant events in the
>development of the PC and the Net ? this will grow as users add more
>details, new events
>?*thePCstory.com* <http://www.thepcstory.com/>
>?has accumulated data on 1,000+ organisations that played a part in
>the story ? this too will expand through user input (this is still
>in process).
>
>Here?s where your assistance would be invaluable:
>
>?Of course we would certainly appreciate your passing on the word
>about this new resource to your colleagues, contacts, and friends.
>?But we would also welcome your assistance by commenting on how we
>have presented your roles and contributions ? have we missed or
>misrepresented anything?
>
>Regards
>Bob Denton
>bobd at thePCpioneers.com <mailto:bob at thePCpioneers.com>
>
>
>To unsubscribe click here
>http://thepctimeline.com/newsletters/?p=unsubscribe&uid=ad405e0068519e04bb215bd608b64df2
>
>
>
>--
>powered by phpList, www.phplist.com --
>
>




From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Sun Sep 25 18:10:03 2011
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 21:10:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ih] RIP, Einar Stefferud, 1930-2011
Message-ID: <20110926011003.63B8118C0E7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

Sad news:

  From: Nathaniel Borenstein <nsb at guppylake.com>
  Subject: RIP, Einar Stefferud, 1930-2011
  Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2011 18:51:48 -0400

  For those who haven't heard, Einar Stefferud passed away this week.  Many of
  you will remember Stef as an early pioneer of email.  My own remembrance of
  him can be found here:

  http://blogs.msexchange.org/migration/2011/09/25/an-underappreciated-email-pioneer-einar-stefferud-1930-2011/

I'm sure many of us here remember Einar. Sigh.

    Noel


From braden at isi.edu  Mon Sep 26 12:54:01 2011
From: braden at isi.edu (Bob Braden)
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 12:54:01 -0700
Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1317063601.14345.internet-history@postel.org>
References: <mailman.3.1317063601.14345.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <4E80D859.8050105@isi.edu>


I want to join those who regret Stef's passing. I got to know Stef 
around 1964 at Carnegie Tech. I was essentially an adjunct assistant 
professor teaching CS courses and doing system programming for the Comp 
Center. Stef was hired as Operations Manager, and he quickly took the 
reins. He set up a sophisticated priority system for the campus central 
computer, a very overloaded Bendix G-20 (neat machine but not very fast!).

Stef could be prickly, but he was generally a very friendly person, and 
I respected his work.  Later in his life, he suffered a terrible family 
tragedy that took its toll on him; I am not sure he ever fully 
recovered. Despite that, I believe he was a friend to many, and he will 
be missed.

Bob Braden



From vint at google.com  Mon Sep 26 20:00:43 2011
From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf)
Date: Mon, 26 Sep 2011 23:00:43 -0400
Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <4E80D859.8050105@isi.edu>
References: <mailman.3.1317063601.14345.internet-history@postel.org>
	<4E80D859.8050105@isi.edu>
Message-ID: <CAHxHggcDH0uN3wcjR_tZCjUdjT4BetR5ioZ0vz3j1m2uBddKdg@mail.gmail.com>

Bob and Noel have captured much of Stef's spirit. I think I agree very
much with Bob that Stef's family tragedy took a terrible toll.

v


On Mon, Sep 26, 2011 at 3:54 PM, Bob Braden <braden at isi.edu> wrote:
>
> I want to join those who regret Stef's passing. I got to know Stef around
> 1964 at Carnegie Tech. I was essentially an adjunct assistant professor
> teaching CS courses and doing system programming for the Comp Center. Stef
> was hired as Operations Manager, and he quickly took the reins. He set up a
> sophisticated priority system for the campus central computer, a very
> overloaded Bendix G-20 (neat machine but not very fast!).
>
> Stef could be prickly, but he was generally a very friendly person, and I
> respected his work. ?Later in his life, he suffered a terrible family
> tragedy that took its toll on him; I am not sure he ever fully recovered.
> Despite that, I believe he was a friend to many, and he will be missed.
>
> Bob Braden
>
>



From LarrySheldon at cox.net  Tue Sep 27 14:49:35 2011
From: LarrySheldon at cox.net (Laurence F. Sheldon, Jr.)
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 16:49:35 -0500
Subject: [ih] A request on behalf of the young and other unlearneds.
Message-ID: <4E8244EF.2090007@cox.net>

A currently active thread here carries the Subject: line of "Re: [ih] 
internet-history Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3" mentions a "Stef" who has 
apparently been routed to That Great Internet In The Sky.

Before I continue, see if you can find anything in that paragraph that 
might be changed for good purpose?

For me, the reminder that I am and will always be an Outsider because I 
an not only not on a nickname basis, I am not on a first name basis, is 
the worst.

I am an outsider.  I accept that, although I have been writing computer 
code since long before there were networks, much less inter-networks.

But being a youngster (1401 and 707x machines were my first and 
DATAPHONE 50 was still a gleam) I don;t know how to extract meaning from 
"Re: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3".
-- 
Requiescas in pace o email           Two identifying characteristics
                                         of System Administrators:
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio      Infallibility, and the ability to
                                         learn from their mistakes.
http://members.cox.net/larrysheldon/      (Adapted from Stephen Pinker)

ICBM Data:  http://g.co/maps/e5gmy


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Tue Sep 27 17:28:11 2011
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Tue, 27 Sep 2011 19:28:11 -0500
Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 55, Issue 3
In-Reply-To: <CAHxHggcDH0uN3wcjR_tZCjUdjT4BetR5ioZ0vz3j1m2uBddKdg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.3.1317063601.14345.internet-history@postel.org>
	<4E80D859.8050105@isi.edu>
	<CAHxHggcDH0uN3wcjR_tZCjUdjT4BetR5ioZ0vz3j1m2uBddKdg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAMzo+1Z1SgfDQb1Tq7E19ES=hLo2GasPECGX9j0YkPhTsAN5Bw@mail.gmail.com>

Just adding an extra bit of recent sad news, learned on G+ from Eugene Spafford:

>The following was in the most recent SANS newsletter:
>
>Very sad news: Gene Schultz, a cybersecurity pioneer and NewsBites editor, founder of the Department of Energy's CIAC and one of the greatest teachers of security, suffered a severe brain injury from a bad fall on >Friday afternoon at the Minneapolis Airport. His family is with him at the hospital and our prayers are as well. If you are one of Gene's students, colleagues, and friends and want to follow his progress, visit the web >site his family has set up at
>
>http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/geneschultz

Regards
Jorge



From landreu at gmail.com  Thu Sep 29 13:59:38 2011
From: landreu at gmail.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Andreu_Ve=E0_i_Bar=F3?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:59:38 +0200
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
Message-ID: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>

I have a friend who has posted me this question:

 

               How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?
(BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...

               Any clue ?

 

                                            &reu

 

From: Gmail [mailto:karelman at gmail.com] 
Sent: jueves, 29 de septiembre de 2011 20:10
To: Andreu Ve? i Bar?
Subject: Pregunta, 

 

Andreu,

 

Buenas tardes para ti;

 

 

Este mensaje es para pedirte un favor.

 

Llevo semanas escarbando la red para averiguar cu?nta gente estar?a
conectada en 1980 (BITNET + CSNET), la cifra a la que he llegado es de unas
200 personas.

Crees tu que sea una cifra cercana a la realidad?

 

Creo que tue res el ?nico que podr?a contestar esto....

 

 

 

________________________________
Carlos Manuel Est?vez-Bret?n Riveros

 <mailto:karelman at gmail.com> karelman at gmail.com

               \\|//          
               (o o)
-. .-.   .-oOOo~(_)~oOOo-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.
.-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-. 
||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
/|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
|/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/
\|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||
'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'
`-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-'
_________________________________________________
    * Twitter:  <http://twitter.com/Karelman> http://twitter.com/Karelman
    *  <http://identi.ca/> Identi.ca:  <http://identi.ca/karelman>
http://identi.ca/karelman
    * Delicious:  <http://delicious.com/Karelman>
http://delicious.com/Karelman
    * Picassa:  <http://picasaweb.google.com/karelman>
http://picasaweb.google.com/karelman
    * Flickr:  <http://www.flickr.com/photos/karelman/>
http://www.flickr.com/photos/karelman/
    * YouTube:  <http://www.youtube.com/user/charlymandna>
http://www.youtube.com/user/charlymandna
    * Panoramio:  <http://www.panoramio.com/user/130408>
http://www.panoramio.com/user/130408
    * SlideShare:  <http://www.slideshare.net/Karelman>
http://www.slideshare.net/Karelman
    * Blog - TICs, Tag, Tounge:  <http://tics-tag-tongue.blogspot.com/>
http://tics-tag-tongue.blogspot.com/ 

 





 

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From jmamodio at gmail.com  Thu Sep 29 16:18:22 2011
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 18:18:22 -0500
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
In-Reply-To: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>


I'm sure it was over 200, most probably10s of thousands.

Look for John Quarterman ACM paper "Notable Computer Networks"
I don't have at hand right now but John put together a great summary
networks during the 80's and may have some numbers.

If my memory is not failing the paper was published in 1986.

I'll dig later on my old history files to see if I find something.


-J


On Sep 29, 2011, at 3:59 PM, "Andreu Ve? i Bar?" <landreu at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have a friend who has posted me this question:
> 
>  
> 
>                How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?   (BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...
> 
>                Any clue ?
> 
>  
> 
>                                             &reu
> 
>  
> 
> From: Gmail [mailto:karelman at gmail.com] 
> Sent: jueves, 29 de septiembre de 2011 20:10
> To: Andreu Ve? i Bar?
> Subject: Pregunta,
> 
>  
> 
> Andreu,
> 
>  
> 
> Buenas tardes para ti;
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Este mensaje es para pedirte un favor.
> 
>  
> 
> Llevo semanas escarbando la red para averiguar cu?nta gente estar?a conectada en 1980 (BITNET + CSNET), la cifra a la que he llegado es de unas 200 personas.
> 
> Crees tu que sea una cifra cercana a la realidad?
> 
>  
> 
> Creo que tue res el ?nico que podr?a contestar esto....
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> ________________________________
> Carlos Manuel Est?vez-Bret?n Riveros
> 
> karelman at gmail.com
> 
>                \\|//          
>                (o o)
> -. .-.   .-oOOo~(_)~oOOo-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-. 
> ||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
> |/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||
> '   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-'
> _________________________________________________
>     * Twitter: http://twitter.com/Karelman
>     * Identi.ca: http://identi.ca/karelman
>     * Delicious: http://delicious.com/Karelman
>     * Picassa: http://picasaweb.google.com/karelman
>     * Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/karelman/
>     * YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/charlymandna
>     * Panoramio: http://www.panoramio.com/user/130408
>     * SlideShare: http://www.slideshare.net/Karelman
>     * Blog - TICs, Tag, Tounge: http://tics-tag-tongue.blogspot.com/ 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
>  
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From tony.li at tony.li  Thu Sep 29 17:45:50 2011
From: tony.li at tony.li (Tony Li)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 17:45:50 -0700
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
In-Reply-To: <C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>


RFC 1296 might prove of interest.

Tony


On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:18 PM, Jorge Amodio wrote:

> 
> I'm sure it was over 200, most probably10s of thousands.
> 
> Look for John Quarterman ACM paper "Notable Computer Networks"
> I don't have at hand right now but John put together a great summary
> networks during the 80's and may have some numbers.
> 
> If my memory is not failing the paper was published in 1986.
> 
> I'll dig later on my old history files to see if I find something.
> 
> 
> -J
> 
> 
> On Sep 29, 2011, at 3:59 PM, "Andreu Ve? i Bar?" <landreu at gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> I have a friend who has posted me this question:
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>                How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?   (BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...
>> 
>>                Any clue ?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>                                             &reu
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> From: Gmail [mailto:karelman at gmail.com] 
>> Sent: jueves, 29 de septiembre de 2011 20:10
>> To: Andreu Ve? i Bar?
>> Subject: Pregunta,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Andreu,
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Buenas tardes para ti;
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Este mensaje es para pedirte un favor.
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Llevo semanas escarbando la red para averiguar cu?nta gente estar?a conectada en 1980 (BITNET + CSNET), la cifra a la que he llegado es de unas 200 personas.
>> 
>> Crees tu que sea una cifra cercana a la realidad?
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> Creo que tue res el ?nico que podr?a contestar esto....
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> 
>> ________________________________
>> Carlos Manuel Est?vez-Bret?n Riveros
>> 
>> karelman at gmail.com
>> 
>>                \\|//          
>>                (o o)
>> -. .-.   .-oOOo~(_)~oOOo-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-. 
>> ||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
>> |/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||
>> '   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-'
>> _________________________________________________
>>     * Twitter: http://twitter.com/Karelman
>>     * Identi.ca: http://identi.ca/karelman
>>     * Delicious: http://delicious.com/Karelman
>>     * Picassa: http://picasaweb.google.com/karelman
>>     * Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/karelman/
>>     * YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/charlymandna
>>     * Panoramio: http://www.panoramio.com/user/130408
>>     * SlideShare: http://www.slideshare.net/Karelman
>>     * Blog - TICs, Tag, Tounge: http://tics-tag-tongue.blogspot.com/ 
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>> 




From nfonseca at ic.unicamp.br  Thu Sep 29 18:26:53 2011
From: nfonseca at ic.unicamp.br (nfonseca at ic.unicamp.br)
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2011 22:26:53 -0300 (BRT)
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
In-Reply-To: <2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
Message-ID: <e1efabdff66c049d8425337c1e8d8558.squirrel@webmail.ic.unicamp.br>


very interesting indeed

I wonder whether there exists similar study for the post-web era

nelson

>
> RFC 1296 might prove of interest.
>
> Tony
>
>
> On Sep 29, 2011, at 4:18 PM, Jorge Amodio wrote:
>
>>
>> I'm sure it was over 200, most probably10s of thousands.
>>
>> Look for John Quarterman ACM paper "Notable Computer Networks"
>> I don't have at hand right now but John put together a great summary
>> networks during the 80's and may have some numbers.
>>
>> If my memory is not failing the paper was published in 1986.
>>
>> I'll dig later on my old history files to see if I find something.
>>
>>
>> -J
>>
>>
>> On Sep 29, 2011, at 3:59 PM, "Andreu Ve? i Bar?" <landreu at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have a friend who has posted me this question:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?
>>> (BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...
>>>
>>>                Any clue ?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>                                             &reu
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Gmail [mailto:karelman at gmail.com]
>>> Sent: jueves, 29 de septiembre de 2011 20:10
>>> To: Andreu Ve? i Bar?
>>> Subject: Pregunta,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Andreu,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Buenas tardes para ti;
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Este mensaje es para pedirte un favor.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Llevo semanas escarbando la red para averiguar cu?nta gente estar?a
>>> conectada en 1980 (BITNET + CSNET), la cifra a la que he llegado es de
>>> unas 200 personas.
>>>
>>> Crees tu que sea una cifra cercana a la realidad?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Creo que tue res el ?nico que podr?a contestar esto....
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ________________________________
>>> Carlos Manuel Est?vez-Bret?n Riveros
>>>
>>> karelman at gmail.com
>>>
>>>                \\|//
>>>                (o o)
>>> -. .-.   .-oOOo~(_)~oOOo-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.
>>> .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.   .-. .-.
>>> ||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
>>> /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\ /|||X|||\
>>> |/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/
>>> \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||X|||/ \|||
>>> '   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'
>>>   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-' `-'   `-'
>>> _________________________________________________
>>>     * Twitter: http://twitter.com/Karelman
>>>     * Identi.ca: http://identi.ca/karelman
>>>     * Delicious: http://delicious.com/Karelman
>>>     * Picassa: http://picasaweb.google.com/karelman
>>>     * Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/karelman/
>>>     * YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/charlymandna
>>>     * Panoramio: http://www.panoramio.com/user/130408
>>>     * SlideShare: http://www.slideshare.net/Karelman
>>>     * Blog - TICs, Tag, Tounge: http://tics-tag-tongue.blogspot.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>
>




From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Fri Sep 30 08:26:54 2011
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave CROCKER)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 08:26:54 -0700
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
In-Reply-To: <2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
Message-ID: <4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>


> RFC 1296 might prove of interest.
...
>> I'm sure it was over 200, most probably10s of thousands.
...
>>>                 How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?   (BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...


1980 is an interesting year to consider.  Arguably, it defines the transition 
from a relatively pure research world for networking to the beginning of the 
production build-out, albeit often within the context of research.

RFC 1296 is a good place to start, in terms of direct Internet host connections, 
remembering that in those days, most of those machines were time-sharing 
services.  So there is a significant multiplier for many of those hosts, in 
counting people with access.  In those days, LANs were still quite rare.

CSNet was just getting started.  We had a small, predecessor email relaying 
service running to some Army sites that were not otherwise on the net. I don't 
remember how many sites, but the number was not huge.  I'll wave my hand and say 
that we were giving perhaps a few thousand people network mail access.

As I recall, Bitnet, too, was just getting started and likely did not have much 
reach yet.

UUCP was in mild use for email relaying.  I suspect that in 1980 it was the 
largest source of Arpanet -- remember it wasn't the formal Internet yet -- mail 
from places lacking full Internet connectivity.  (Usenet as an integrated 
service was also starting at around that time.)

All told, low thousands or very low tens of thousands sounds like the right range.

For the distinctions about type of access, take a look at RFC 1775 (To Be "On" 
the Internet)

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Fri Sep 30 10:09:47 2011
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 12:09:47 -0500
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
In-Reply-To: <4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
	<4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>

In the early 80's UUCP was going from mild to wild, CSNET was funded
by NSF in 1979 but it took a while to get moving, if he can get hold
of Larry Landweber he may be able to provide more specifics and
insight.

BITNET got rolling in 1981 with CUNY and YALE (little old image
attached from those days).

Besides ARPANET another contemporary network was SPAN (NASA, primarily
DECNet based), I remember reading somewhere that around those days
20,000 scientist were using it.

And you have to add some other developments such as Cyclades and JANET
in Europe, JUNET in Japan, etc.

So, hundreds sounds too low, millions too high, any number in the
10K-300K interval may sound about right, now if you are strictly
talking about CSNET and BITNET in 1980 the answer is probably very few
since they were not fully developed yet.

My .02
Jorge


On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Dave CROCKER <dhc2 at dcrocker.net> wrote:
>
>> RFC 1296 might prove of interest.
>
> ...
>>>
>>> I'm sure it was over 200, most probably10s of thousands.
>
> ...
>>>>
>>>> ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?
>>>> (BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...
>
>
> 1980 is an interesting year to consider. ?Arguably, it defines the
> transition from a relatively pure research world for networking to the
> beginning of the production build-out, albeit often within the context of
> research.
>
> RFC 1296 is a good place to start, in terms of direct Internet host
> connections, remembering that in those days, most of those machines were
> time-sharing services. ?So there is a significant multiplier for many of
> those hosts, in counting people with access. ?In those days, LANs were still
> quite rare.
>
> CSNet was just getting started. ?We had a small, predecessor email relaying
> service running to some Army sites that were not otherwise on the net. I
> don't remember how many sites, but the number was not huge. ?I'll wave my
> hand and say that we were giving perhaps a few thousand people network mail
> access.
>
> As I recall, Bitnet, too, was just getting started and likely did not have
> much reach yet.
>
> UUCP was in mild use for email relaying. ?I suspect that in 1980 it was the
> largest source of Arpanet -- remember it wasn't the formal Internet yet --
> mail from places lacking full Internet connectivity. ?(Usenet as an
> integrated service was also starting at around that time.)
>
> All told, low thousands or very low tens of thousands sounds like the right
> range.
>
> For the distinctions about type of access, take a look at RFC 1775 (To Be
> "On" the Internet)
>
> d/
>
> --
>
> ?Dave Crocker
> ?Brandenburg InternetWorking
> ?bbiw.net
>
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From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Fri Sep 30 11:20:08 2011
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave CROCKER)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 11:20:08 -0700
Subject: [ih] CSNET (was: Re:  Quick Question)
In-Reply-To: <CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
	<4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
	<CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4E860858.6050006@dcrocker.net>

Modified Subject, since this diverges from the original query:


On 9/30/2011 10:09 AM, Jorge Amodio wrote:
> In the early 80's UUCP was going from mild to wild, CSNET was funded
> by NSF in 1979 but it took a while to get moving, if he can get hold
> of Larry Landweber he may be able to provide more specifics and
> insight.


The wikipedia entry on CSNet is pretty good, though a bit sparse about some of 
the startup details and confused about MMDF:

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET>

It's a bit odd that it mentions my doing an NSF review on the original proposal, 
but not that I developed and ran the email relaying service that finally 
emerged.  In terms of software, MMDF was the name of that overall mail relaying 
package.  Phonenet was the phone-specific channel of MMDF.

CSNet's initial service was pure mail relaying between Arpanet and across phone 
lines and x.25/x.29 terminal lines.  It used MMDF.

I got the first version of MMDF operational in the spring of 1979.  The effort 
was funded by the Army Materiel Command.  The original (rejected) proposal to 
NSFNet from Landweber et al came in after that.  The revised proposal with a 
recombined set of participant schools (e.g., dropping U of Arizona and adding U 
of Delaware) took some time.

So 1981 sounds right for starting service for CSNet.

You can listen to presentation and acceptance of the ISOC Postel Award to CSNET at:

    <http://bbiw.net/recent.html#PostelCSNet>


Also, since this is a history list, I'll also point folks at a geneology table I 
produced, in which MMDF played a prominant part of evolution:

    <http://bbiw.net/articles/rand-email.pdf>

d/

-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Fri Sep 30 11:24:58 2011
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 14:24:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
Message-ID: <20110930182458.9BE5818C112@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Jorge Amodio <jmamodio at gmail.com>

    > Besides ARPANET another contemporary network was SPAN (NASA,
    > primarily DECNet based), I remember reading somewhere that around
    > those days 20,000 scientist were using it.

There was also HEPNET, for particle physicists, which also ran DECNET.
There doesn't seem to be any history online that I could find quickly, but
there's a certain amount of detail given in "Exploring the Internet: A
Technical Travelogue", by Carl Malamud (pp. 292-293). It was later
replaced by ESNet.

I have this vague memory that HEPNET and SPAN were connected together at
some point? I seem to recall issues with the DECNET address space not
being large enough in earlier versions of DECNET, which caused problems....

	Noel


From mfidelman at meetinghouse.net  Fri Sep 30 11:59:02 2011
From: mfidelman at meetinghouse.net (Miles Fidelman)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 14:59:02 -0400
Subject: [ih] CSNET
In-Reply-To: <4E860858.6050006@dcrocker.net>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
	<4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
	<CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E860858.6050006@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <4E861176.9010509@meetinghouse.net>

Dave CROCKER wrote:
>
> The wikipedia entry on CSNet is pretty good, though a bit sparse about 
> some of the startup details and confused about MMDF:
>
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET>
>
> It's a bit odd that it mentions my doing an NSF review on the original 
> proposal, but not that I developed and ran the email relaying service 
> that finally emerged.  In terms of software, MMDF was the name of that 
> overall mail relaying package.  Phonenet was the phone-specific 
> channel of MMDF.

None better than you to correct it Dave. :-)

Miles Fidelman

-- 
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In<fnord>  practice, there is.   .... Yogi Berra




From dhc2 at dcrocker.net  Fri Sep 30 13:11:45 2011
From: dhc2 at dcrocker.net (Dave CROCKER)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 13:11:45 -0700
Subject: [ih] CSNET
In-Reply-To: <4E861176.9010509@meetinghouse.net>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
	<4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
	<CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E860858.6050006@dcrocker.net> <4E861176.9010509@meetinghouse.net>
Message-ID: <4E862281.5000002@dcrocker.net>

Well, I've just finished extensive changes to Wikipedia's entry for CSNet:

    <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET>

It would be great for folks to review it and fix any errors you see.

d/

ps.  I am quite sure that the entry's paragraph beginning "By 1981" has 
incorrect details about who was connected and the number during the first year 
but I don't remember enough to fix it.

For example, the first Phonenet site I brought up was University of 
Pennsylvania.  Ira Winston got MMDF running on a DEC VMS system, which was quite 
an impressive and ugly feat.  It motivated him to recast MMDF into a form that 
was friendly to operating systems that had expensive process invocation.  It was 
called PMDF and played an important role.  (See the genealogy chart).

d/
-- 

   Dave Crocker
   Brandenburg InternetWorking
   bbiw.net


From johnl at iecc.com  Fri Sep 30 13:19:32 2011
From: johnl at iecc.com (John Levine)
Date: 30 Sep 2011 20:19:32 -0000
Subject: [ih] Quick Question
In-Reply-To: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
Message-ID: <20110930201932.55885.qmail@joyce.lan>

>               How many people was connected to a network in 1980 ?
>(BITNET, CSNET ?just created-)...

It is my impression there were some substantial proprietary networks
in 1980.  SITA probably had 10,000 terminals.  IBM's VNET had 285
mainframe nodes in 1979 and was growing rapidly, and probably had
several thousand users in 1980.  DEC also had an internal network,
which could have had a thousand users in 1980.

R's,
John


From jcurran at istaff.org  Fri Sep 30 16:02:45 2011
From: jcurran at istaff.org (John Curran)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 19:02:45 -0400
Subject: [ih] CSNET
In-Reply-To: <4E862281.5000002@dcrocker.net>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
	<4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
	<CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E860858.6050006@dcrocker.net> <4E861176.9010509@meetinghouse.net>
	<4E862281.5000002@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <EE2969D9-130E-49FA-8E07-FF0DA84DACAD@istaff.org>

Dave - 

  I'll review it when I get a chance; I can't help with the 
  early period but was keeping CSNET pieces running as part 
  of the BBN team for 1990 through shutdown in October 1991.

/John
  
FYI - I had the honor of doing final power down of sh, relay1, 
  and relay2 (once Karen Roubicek gave the "do it" command); 
  I might have even remembered to clear all the mmdf channels 
  first... ;-)

On Sep 30, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote:

> Well, I've just finished extensive changes to Wikipedia's entry for CSNet:
> 
>   <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET>
> 
> It would be great for folks to review it and fix any errors you see.
> 
> d/
> 
> ps.  I am quite sure that the entry's paragraph beginning "By 1981" has incorrect details about who was connected and the number during the first year but I don't remember enough to fix it.
> 
> For example, the first Phonenet site I brought up was University of Pennsylvania.  Ira Winston got MMDF running on a DEC VMS system, which was quite an impressive and ugly feat.  It motivated him to recast MMDF into a form that was friendly to operating systems that had expensive process invocation.  It was called PMDF and played an important role.  (See the genealogy chart).
> 
> d/
> -- 
> 
>  Dave Crocker
>  Brandenburg InternetWorking
>  bbiw.net




From craig at aland.bbn.com  Fri Sep 30 17:06:51 2011
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:06:51 -0400
Subject: [ih] CSNET
Message-ID: <20111001000651.265C728E137@aland.bbn.com>


Memories of clearing mmdf channels...

(I was a CSNET techie from 1984-1988, which meant I was on-call about one
week in four -- during the various ARPANET congestion collapses this often
meant being paged and dialing into relay.cs.net to manually start clearing
mmdf queues -- usually around 2am -- and often because UUNET was overloaded
and the queue would back up to CSNET).

Fun memories...

Craig

> Dave - 
> 
>   I'll review it when I get a chance; I can't help with the 
>   early period but was keeping CSNET pieces running as part 
>   of the BBN team for 1990 through shutdown in October 1991.
> 
> /John
>   
> FYI - I had the honor of doing final power down of sh, relay1, 
>   and relay2 (once Karen Roubicek gave the "do it" command); 
>   I might have even remembered to clear all the mmdf channels 
>   first... ;-)
> 
> On Sep 30, 2011, at 4:11 PM, Dave CROCKER wrote:
> 
> > Well, I've just finished extensive changes to Wikipedia's entry for CSNet:
> > 
> >   <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSNET>
> > 
> > It would be great for folks to review it and fix any errors you see.
> > 
> > d/
> > 
> > ps.  I am quite sure that the entry's paragraph beginning "By 1981" has inc
> orrect details about who was connected and the number during the first year b
> ut I don't remember enough to fix it.
> > 
> > For example, the first Phonenet site I brought up was University of Pennsyl
> vania.  Ira Winston got MMDF running on a DEC VMS system, which was quite an 
> impressive and ugly feat.  It motivated him to recast MMDF into a form that w
> as friendly to operating systems that had expensive process invocation.  It w
> as called PMDF and played an important role.  (See the genealogy chart).
> > 
> > d/
> > -- 
> > 
> >  Dave Crocker
> >  Brandenburg InternetWorking
> >  bbiw.net
> 
********************
Craig Partridge
Chief Scientist, BBN Technologies
E-mail: craig at aland.bbn.com or craig at bbn.com
Phone: +1 517 324 3425


From jmamodio at gmail.com  Fri Sep 30 18:49:39 2011
From: jmamodio at gmail.com (Jorge Amodio)
Date: Fri, 30 Sep 2011 20:49:39 -0500
Subject: [ih] CSNET
In-Reply-To: <4E862281.5000002@dcrocker.net>
References: <042701cc7eea$b3ce98d0$1b6bca70$@gmail.com>
	<C1BD7778-EDD9-452C-94E3-65B692BD94EE@gmail.com>
	<2DCA71CA-9AC9-4EBD-A55D-FE42EE77ADC0@tony.li>
	<4E85DFBE.3020107@dcrocker.net>
	<CAMzo+1bBW_-HD+civ+kM_eNsks2Xx5WxvMWEo1ARDu2XF7Q1gA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4E860858.6050006@dcrocker.net> <4E861176.9010509@meetinghouse.net>
	<4E862281.5000002@dcrocker.net>
Message-ID: <CAMzo+1YfLCnaXgMWfyquZ0sv1QHaj7-G3zhS+jqK8oG-5TnygQ@mail.gmail.com>

John Quarterman's "The Matrix" has the detailed history about CSNET
starting when Larry was chairman of the University of Wisconsin
Computer Science Department in 1979.

We can ask John's permission to transcribe part of his work into Wikipedia.

I can scan the related pages from the book.

-J