From mbaer at cs.tu-berlin.de Fri Apr 2 21:20:39 2010 From: mbaer at cs.tu-berlin.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Matthias_B=E4rwolff?=) Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 06:20:39 +0200 Subject: [ih] Fate of Alohanet Message-ID: <4BB6C217.3020307@cs.tu-berlin.de> >From Richard Binder, 03/13/2010 03:08 AM; just for the record; didn't make it to the list despite the list being cc-ed. __________ Matthias, re the arpanet connection: I can't recall our actual experiences with it when it became operational, but I think the 1974 final report was just saying that the software etc work wasn't completed till then. Also, I think the terms "NCP" and "Telnet" may have been used loosely in that report to refer to the Menehune software involved in arpanet communication - since a TIP was involved and the aim was to let alohanet users connect to arpanet hosts using their 'dumb' terminals (and not the reverse), I think the menehune just set up temporary connections between users and TIP ports and provided the necessary Telnet-prescribed flow control (but I could be mistaken). As for the manual retransmission required after the three automatic attempts, I think that almost never happened. The channel traffic loading was such that only an occasional single automatic retransmission should have been necessary. If you don't already have it, the paper "Aloha packet broadcasting -- a retrospect", written near the end of the project in late 1974, is probably the most definitive description of Alohanet and its operation still around. It was given at the May 1975 NCC and is available for a fee from acm at http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1499985 . btw, why the interest in alohanet? Richard Matthias B?rwolff wrote: > Mind you, may I add two more questions to the soup: > > Did the Arpanet connection actually ever work fine? The final report > indicates that only by 1974 did NCP and Telnet work well enough on the > Alohanet side so as to allow terminal connections over to the Arpanet. > And, did people from the Arpanet connect to Alohanet terminals, too? > > Second, what about the experiences with the retransmission scheme which > in the initial design required users to reinitiate retransmission after > three failed transmission attempts for a packet. How did that work out. > I'd suspect it must have happened quite often that such user initiated > retransmissions were required. > > Matthias > > Richard Binder wrote: > >> Matthias , >> >> I believe the arpanet connection was via a TIP at UH, but can't recall >> the connection details from the Menehune side. I left Hawaii in early >> 1975, but a good person to ask about the project's fate is Frank Kuo >> (ffkuo at mindspring.com). >> >> Dick >> >> >>> from Bob Kahn: >>> >>> >>>>> The Alohanet funding began (I think, because it was before my >>>>> time) with funds from AFOSR. Then, around 1969, DARPA got into the >>>>> picture and augmented the AF funding (via AFOSR as agent). Most >>>>> likely the last funding was in FY 1974 or 75. >>>>> >>> If you Google "richard binder alohanet" you should turn up the final >>> report of the Alohanet project that is dated late in 1974 so Bob's >>> guess as to funding appears to be correct. As far as landlines, I >>> don't think they got any better. The project itself successfully >>> demonstrated the feasibility of the stochastic method for sharing >>> capacity and by mid-1973, Bob Metcalfe, stimulated by his exposure to >>> the Alohanet project, had invented and demonstrated Ethernet at Xerox >>> PARC. The Internetting project, initiated by bob kahn at ARPA had >>> already started in 1973 and was well underway in 1974 at Stanford. >>> Packet Radio and Packet Satellite were also well underway and these >>> also used some of the Alohanet ideas. In some sense, these other >>> projects instantiated the Alohanet notions in more powerful, higher >>> speed forms and it might have been thought that the Hawaiian project >>> would not yield more beneficial results. >>> >>> vint >>> >>> >>> >>> Dick Binder is copied and may have more precision to offer. >>> >>> vint >>> >>> >>> On Feb 25, 2010, at 4:40 AM, Matthias B?rwolff wrote: >>> >>> >>>> Dear all, >>>> >>>> I gather from the literature (largely Abramson and Kuo) that Alohanet >>>> got connected to the Arpanet by means of an IMP at the Hawaii >>>> University >>>> in late 1972; then, by 1974 they had NCP and Telnet sufficiently up in >>>> the Menehune to allow terminal connections to the Arpanet; and, >>>> finally, >>>> in 1976 the whole project died for lack of further funding. No further >>>> information was provided for the latter point. >>>> >>>> Does anyone know a specific reason why they discontinued Alohanet? Did >>>> the landlines get better, and thus the raison d'etre vanished? What >>>> happened to the IMP, did it stay connected to the Arpanet? >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Matthias >>>> From eric.gade at gmail.com Wed Apr 21 19:10:51 2010 From: eric.gade at gmail.com (Eric Gade) Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 22:10:51 -0400 Subject: [ih] Naming and addressing 1971-1989 In-Reply-To: <20100331123943.6219328E137@aland.bbn.com> References: <20100331123943.6219328E137@aland.bbn.com> Message-ID: I'm getting closer to an answer on the periodization of the selection of the ISO list, for those that are interested. I've been making my way (slowly) through every single email in Namedroppers. From March-June of 1984 there was a lot of heated activity, particularly in May when discussions of naming semantics, inspired by two draft memos for Domain Requirements by Postel and Reynolds, stalled the implementation of the plan. There were a lot of voices in there -- some people calling for everyone to wait on IFIP 6.5 before making final naming decisions to those strictly concerned with the case of the Arpa-Internet. Postel responded in late May with a rather heated and long email addressing many of the issues. In this email he first acknowledges that he likes the idea of country TLDs, but is skeptical that they (the NIC, I suppose) would be able to properly and fairly categorize what would be a country. After this the conversation calmed a bit and became more detailed (and civil). Then nothing for more than a month. On July 28th Postel announced (and posted) the final draft of the Domain Requirements RFC. Here he first lists ISO3166 alpha-2 as the standard for ccTLDs. So sometime between the 2nd draft (May 1984) and the final draft (July 28 1984) of the Domain Requirements RFC, Postel et al found out about the ISO list. Furthermore, it seems that mid-1984 was the period when he -- and perhaps the NIC? -- first considered the country issue for the Domain system they were implementing, meaning outside of the IFIP discussions. Several people seem to have been influential in this global view, particularly Robert Maas, someone with the last name "Ferud", Mark Horton, and Robert Cole. Does anyone have contact info for these individuals? I have yet to even start making my way through the files of MSGGROUP. If someone knows a better source for these I would appreciate it. Several discussions on Namedroppers in mid 1984 indicate that a discussion about the IFIP meeting May 1-4 1984 took place on the actual msggroup list after the fact. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Craig Partridge wrote: > > > Also a quick question folks have been asking me -- when did we have country > code TLDs and when did we decide to use the ISO list? I think we had > ccTLDs > by late 1985 as .UK was active and Jon P. had assigned .US to himself (at > least, that's what I remember). But I think choosing a list of ccTLDs > blessed > by ISO was done a bit later. Yes? > > Thanks! > > Craig > > -- Eric -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From feinler at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 20:46:50 2010 From: feinler at earthlink.net (Elizabeth Feinler) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 20:46:50 -0700 Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 41, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: <9DA7EFE5-2131-4B0B-B7DF-CA0817EA3542@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Vint, Thanks for the info on Network Solutions (not Strategies as I had it.) I tried to contact Verisign but no one answered my email Dr. Lisse, I have lost track of Sue Romano Kirkpatrick. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area I believe. Doug McGowan most recently worked for Yahoo. Regards, Jake On Mar 23, 2010, at 11:39 AM, Vint Cerf wrote: > that sounds right to me. > > v > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 6:56 PM, Eric Gade wrote: > It is my understanding that NSI later became Verisign. (Note: I have been told this last sentence. I haven't verified it.) > > The naming of these companies has a confusing history. VeriSign acquired Network Solutions Inc in 2000 (I believe) and took over the registry duties under the name VeriSign. A few years later, VeriSign spun off the registrar portion and named it...Network Solutions Inc. So both companies exist, but now there is a much more explicit division of duties between them. This is my understanding of the situation. > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > FYI the Network Information Center (NIC) at SRI International, Menlo Park, CA developed the TLDs of .mil, .org, .gov, .edu, and .com. These are defined in RFC 1032 which also gives details of the registration procedures used then, and discusses country codes. I am trying to write a small blurb outlining the history of this, and will submit a copy to this group when I have it finished. I particularly want to reference what I say, as there is so much conjecture out there and I don't want to add to it, if possible. :-). In 1991 SRI lost the NIC contract in a competitive bid. Network Strategies, Inc (NSI) took over the naming portion of the contract. It is my understanding that NSI later became Verisign. (Note: I have been told this last sentence. I haven't verified it.) > > Regards, > > Jake Feinler > On Mar 22, 2010, at 12:00 PM, internet-history-request at postel.org wrote: > > > Send internet-history mailing list submissions to > > internet-history at postel.org > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > internet-history-request at postel.org > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > internet-history-owner at postel.org > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of internet-history digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: early ccTLD registrations (Craig Partridge) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:40:57 -0400 > > From: Craig Partridge > > Subject: Re: [ih] early ccTLD registrations > > To: el at lisse.na > > Cc: 'Bernard Turcotte' , craig at aland.bbn.com, > > internet-history at postel.org > > Message-ID: <20100322154057.9009428E137 at aland.bbn.com> > > > > > > You might also talk with some of the CSNET folks -- as I recall, in > > the mid-1980s, we helped several countries get their TLD (as CSNET > > was providing the primary Internet connectivity to the country). > > I'd suggest Dick Edmiston or Laura Breeden. > > > > I don't have emails from the time but my recollection is that > > there ended up being some negotiation with the NIC about how we > > decided who in a country should be allowed to be responsible for that > > country's TLD. (This was not a simple question and often pitted > > Internet pioneers in some countries against their own governments). > > > > Thanks! > > > > Craig > > > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> I registered .NA in 1991, but have unfortunately lost the > >> emails from that time. I would love to reconstruct this, > >> not only for my own personal use, but also, because during > >> "work" in the ICANN ccNSO Delegation-, Re-delegation and > >> Deletion Working Group where we are looking at current > >> "policy" and "procedures" we found that we not only have no > >> definitions what TLDs or even "domains" actually are, but we > >> also do not really know how this all came about. > >> > >> I am looking for two people working at the DDN.MIL > >> Hostmaster around 1990/1991, namely Sue Kirkpatrick, nee > >> Romano and Douglas MacGowan, both of whom handled .ZA a few > >> months before .NA and thus may be able to help (direct) my > >> search. > >> > >> Thanks to Randy Bush kindly sending me some stuff he had > >> already in 2003 I remember that James Revell who as > >> postsmater at uunet.uu.net forwarded the application to DDN.MIL > >> and set up the name servers. I was fortunate to be able to > >> make contact with him again and we were wondering if there > >> was someone around who would know whether and how one can > >> find records from UUNET's side. > >> > >> Anyone else having information about how this was handled > >> before let's say 1994 (when RFC 1591 became prevalent), for > >> any ccTLD is also more than welcome to contact me directly. > >> > >> Two names I have come up with are > >> > >> Sue Kirkpatrick nee Romano > >> Douglas MacGowan > >> > >> who both were hostmasters at DDN.MIL then, and I really > >> would like to get in touch with either or both of them. > >> > >> Then there was a Mary Stahl mentioned in the monthly Internet > >> Reports reporting for DDN.MIL. > >> > >> Anyone who registered ccTLDs during that time and is willing > >> to share their email correspondence would be also greatly > >> appreciated. > >> > >> greetings, el > >> -- > >> Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse \ / Obstetrician & Gynaecologist > >> el at lisse.NA / * | Telephone: +264 81 124 6733 (cell) > >> PO Box 8421 \ / Please do NOT email to this address > >> Bachbrecht, Namibia ;____/ if it is DNS related in ANY way > > ******************** > > Craig Partridge > > Chief Scientist, BBN Technologies > > E-mail: craig at aland.bbn.com or craig at bbn.com > > Phone: +1 517 324 3425 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > internet-history mailing list > > internet-history at postel.org > > http://mailman.postel.org/mailman/listinfo/internet-history > > > > > > End of internet-history Digest, Vol 41, Issue 16 > > ************************************************ > > > > > > -- > Eric Gade > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From feinler at earthlink.net Thu Apr 22 21:28:51 2010 From: feinler at earthlink.net (Elizabeth Feinler) Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 21:28:51 -0700 Subject: [ih] Naming and addressing 1971-1989 In-Reply-To: <1A26379E-486E-41AE-9769-33C3029E66FC@dunlap.org> References: <20100331123943.6219328E137@aland.bbn.com> <1A26379E-486E-41AE-9769-33C3029E66FC@dunlap.org> Message-ID: <5CD254CB-2A43-484A-AEA5-434EF8AD9135@earthlink.net> Kevin, Sorry I did not include your name in my blurb. I was reading Namedroppers and email messages, all of which mentioned or came from Mike Karels. Also, he had come to SRI a couple of times in that capacity. Anyway, I really encourage you to write up what you know about the history of BIND, and maybe the Nominum folks can take it from where you leave off. It is quite a story how naming and addressing mushroomed into what it is today and its impact on commerce and networking. Craig, Two things: I thought the meeting with Mike Corrigan in 1985 was of particular interest because it was the meeting at which all the parties agreed to pull together and start IETF. In my opinion that agreement had significant impact on development of the Internet, and led to a standards track that is in place today. It perpetuated a really good way of getting things done that had started with the network working group (NWG) back in the late 60s. We could have splintered in several directions, but thank heaven we didn't. As for when did we have country code TLDs?, my recollection was that ISO folks decreed that they would mandate naming only to the level of country codes; from there on the structure/assignment was the responsibility of each country. I believe it was at that time that Jon asked for .US, I think before someone more bureaucratic glombed onto it. I emphasize that this is a recollection - I can't verify it. Perhaps Joyce Reynolds or some of the ISI folks can verify when Jon obtained the country code and what his thinking was. USC-ISI was handling Assigned Numbers and the country code at that time. The NIC took this effort over a couple of years later. Regards, Jake >> 1985 >> was about the core naming issues; naming issues came up in 1986 only >> regarding creating .NET and how to use .US and were related to issues >> of perceived provider requirements) >> >> Also a quick question folks have been asking me -- when did we have country >> code TLDs and when did we decide to use the ISO list? I think we had ccTLDs >> by late 1985 as .UK was active and Jon P. had assigned .US to himself (at >> least, that's what I remember). But I think choosing a list of ccTLDs blessed >> by ISO was done a bit later. Yes? From el at lisse.na Thu Apr 22 22:16:29 2010 From: el at lisse.na (Dr Eberhard W Lisse) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 06:16:29 +0100 Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 41, Issue 16 In-Reply-To: References: <9DA7EFE5-2131-4B0B-B7DF-CA0817EA3542@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1D8AF350-7F45-4856-A44B-30E813E6D7FD@lisse.na> Jake, thank you very much, maybe I must yahoo hom then, googeling didn't work :-)-O greetings, el -- Sent from the iPhone of Dr. Eberhard W. Lisse On 23 Apr 2010, at 4:46, Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > Dr. Lisse, > > I have lost track of Sue Romano Kirkpatrick. She lives in the San > Francisco Bay Area I believe. Doug McGowan most recently worked for > Yahoo. > > Regards, > > Jake From vint at google.com Fri Apr 23 04:46:28 2010 From: vint at google.com (Vint Cerf) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 07:46:28 -0400 Subject: [ih] Naming and addressing 1971-1989 In-Reply-To: <5CD254CB-2A43-484A-AEA5-434EF8AD9135@earthlink.net> References: <20100331123943.6219328E137@aland.bbn.com> <1A26379E-486E-41AE-9769-33C3029E66FC@dunlap.org> <5CD254CB-2A43-484A-AEA5-434EF8AD9135@earthlink.net> Message-ID: once it was concluded that ISO 3166-1 would be used for country codes, I think Jon simply undertook to operate .us while assaying to find volunteers to manage other cctlds. Ruediger Volk was drafter to run .de from University of (Dortmund???) for example, if memory serves (and often doesn't at my advanced age...). John Klensin was close to a lot of this, I believe. Is he on the history list? vint On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Elizabeth Feinler wrote: > Kevin, > > Sorry I did not include your name in my blurb. I was reading Namedroppers > and email messages, all of which mentioned or came from Mike Karels. Also, > he had come to SRI a couple of times in that capacity. Anyway, I really > encourage you to write up what you know about the history of BIND, and maybe > the Nominum folks can take it from where you leave off. It is quite a story > how naming and addressing mushroomed into what it is today and its impact on > commerce and networking. > > Craig, > > Two things: > > I thought the meeting with Mike Corrigan in 1985 was of particular interest > because it was the meeting at which all the parties agreed to pull together > and start IETF. In my opinion that agreement had significant impact on > development of the Internet, and led to a standards track that is in place > today. It perpetuated a really good way of getting things done that had > started with the network working group (NWG) back in the late 60s. We could > have splintered in several directions, but thank heaven we didn't. > > As for when did we have country code TLDs?, my recollection was that ISO > folks decreed that they would mandate naming only to the level of country > codes; from there on the structure/assignment was the responsibility of each > country. I believe it was at that time that Jon asked for .US, I think > before someone more bureaucratic glombed onto it. I emphasize that this is > a recollection - I can't verify it. Perhaps Joyce Reynolds or some of the > ISI folks can verify when Jon obtained the country code and what his > thinking was. USC-ISI was handling Assigned Numbers and the country code at > that time. The NIC took this effort over a couple of years later. > > Regards, > > Jake > >> 1985 > >> was about the core naming issues; naming issues came up in 1986 > only > >> regarding creating .NET and how to use .US and were related to > issues > >> of perceived provider requirements) > >> > >> Also a quick question folks have been asking me -- when did we have > country > >> code TLDs and when did we decide to use the ISO list? I think we had > ccTLDs > >> by late 1985 as .UK was active and Jon P. had assigned .US to himself > (at > >> least, that's what I remember). But I think choosing a list of ccTLDs > blessed > >> by ISO was done a bit later. Yes? > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: