From harald at alvestrand.no  Mon Dec  4 07:27:27 2006
From: harald at alvestrand.no (Harald Alvestrand)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:27:27 +0100
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
Message-ID: <45743E5F.7090001@alvestrand.no>

Hi,

I'm writing an article on the IETF, where a very small part deals with 
its history.

One thing I'd like to have right in that section:

- The IETF started out as "people who work on DARPA projects related to 
the ARPAnet"
- It continued as "people who work on ARPAnet/Internet connected networks"
- At some point, it changed to "anyone who wants to can come".

Can someone help me by pointing out (with references, if possible) at 
which IETF meetings those changes happened?

Thanks in advance!

                      Harald



From craig at aland.bbn.com  Mon Dec  4 08:22:50 2006
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:22:50 -0500
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Dec 2006 16:27:27 +0100."
	<45743E5F.7090001@alvestrand.no> 
Message-ID: <20061204162250.6D9A969@aland.bbn.com>


The 5th IETF was, I believe, open to anyone.  I showed up under NSF
funding because NSFNET had network management challenges that we needed
addressed and IETF was deemed the place in the Internet standards world
in which that work should be done.

I seem to recall this was the first IETF that was open to anyone but I've
never gotten the full story on IETFS 1 through 4, though I note they
have proceedings on-line at IETF.org.

Craig

In message <45743E5F.7090001 at alvestrand.no>, Harald Alvestrand writes:

>Hi,
>
>I'm writing an article on the IETF, where a very small part deals with 
>its history.
>
>One thing I'd like to have right in that section:
>
>- The IETF started out as "people who work on DARPA projects related to 
>the ARPAnet"
>- It continued as "people who work on ARPAnet/Internet connected networks"
>- At some point, it changed to "anyone who wants to can come".
>
>Can someone help me by pointing out (with references, if possible) at 
>which IETF meetings those changes happened?
>
>Thanks in advance!
>
>                      Harald


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Dec  4 08:36:00 2006
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 2006 11:36:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
Message-ID: <20061204163600.48D9C87322@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Harald Alvestrand <harald at alvestrand.no>

    > The IETF started out as "people who work on DARPA projects related to
    > the ARPAnet"

No, actually, it was pretty always focussed on the Internet, even before it
became the IETF.

(It was the Internet Architecture Task Force before that [a subsidiary of the
IAB, whatever that acronym meant that week], and before that it was the
Internet Working Group, which originally was the only thing there was; later
the IAB/ICCB split off from the IWG - and just to make things confusing,
there's a wholly different group called the INWG from the early 70's where a
lot of fundamental work on internetworking happened.)

The ARPANet was only involved because it was the only long-haul backbone we
really had available to tie the various sites together. (Yes, long-haul
commercial X.25 networks existed, but using them wasn't economically
feasible.)

In the beginning there was a certain amount of personnel continuity with
people who had worked on stuff for the ARPANet, of course, but there really
weren't any organizational links to speak of. There were RFC's, of course,
but in the beginning the Internet work didn't use them - they used IEN's
instead. And of course DARPA was a key player, but at the research level it
was a new organization.

    > It continued as "people who work on ARPAnet/Internet connected
    > networks"

Well, US Federal Government funded (along with a few foreign partners, but I
think some of them were actually DARPA-funded - I think UCL was, IIRC). There
was this thing called the FRICC, which stood for "Federal Research Internet
Coordinating Committee", which was really the Internet governing body after
it left off being a DARPA research thing.

    > At some point, it changed to "anyone who wants to can come".
    > Can someone help me by pointing out (with references, if possible) at
    > which IETF meetings those changes happened?

That decision was really just a mirror of the larger decision, which was to
open access to the Internet itself. The IETF never formally decided to be
open, it just naturally followed the expansion of the Internet community. And
the decision on the Internet itself was taken way above the IETF's pay grade,
since it was a Federal government decision, with (IIRC) NSF being a key
player, but the Congress having a large role to play too.

Of course, even before that formal decision there was also a certain amount of
sub-rosa Internet spread, too. That's because unlike an ARPANet connection,
which necessarily involved getting the Feds in the loop because one had to
connect directly to it, one could hook onto the Internet via some
friendly/brave site which let you go through them, provided you could come up
with a plausible link to government-support activity to cover the posteriors
of your co-conspirators.  E.g. Proteon's initial Internet connectivity was via
MIT, which justified it on the ground that they were using it to support
government contractors.

And, in a similar fashion, one could slide into the IETF meetings to, if one
knew people and could make it sound plausible; e.g. I seem to recall getting
people from Proteon (as opposed to me going as a long-standing member, and
being a link to Proteon) to IETF's pretty early on.


Probably the best source for the rise of public access to the Internet I
could recommend is:

  Janet Abbate, "Inventing the Internet"

which is a careful scholarly history which I highly recommend. It has a few
minor errors, but generally gets it right (from my perspective). The start
of the public spread is coveered in Chapter 6.

As to when the IETF became open, just look at the lists of attendees in the
minutes. I don't have time to research mine, alas...

	 Noel


From sbrim at cisco.com  Mon Dec  4 08:48:32 2006
From: sbrim at cisco.com (Scott W Brim)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:48:32 -0500
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: <20061204162250.6D9A969@aland.bbn.com>
References: <20061204162250.6D9A969@aland.bbn.com>
Message-ID: <45745160.8090404@cisco.com>

On 12/04/2006 11:22 AM, Craig Partridge wrote:
> The 5th IETF was, I believe, open to anyone.  I showed up under NSF
> funding because NSFNET had network management challenges that we needed
> addressed and IETF was deemed the place in the Internet standards world
> in which that work should be done.
> 
> I seem to recall this was the first IETF that was open to anyone but I've
> never gotten the full story on IETFS 1 through 4, though I note they
> have proceedings on-line at IETF.org.

As I recall, the first 3 were essentially DoD plus contractors, and at
the 4th we had more people by invitation -- CSNET, NASA, Proteon, and
me for NSFNET (Dave Mills and Hans-Werner Braun were NSFNET but they
were also at previous meetings on DoD money).

The 6th meeting had all the NSFNET regional networks.  I don't think
they required invitations.  I believe the 9th at Mitre was where Van
Jacobson showed up, and as I recall his consituency was not the
regional network but LBL -- that's significant.  I don't remember if
he required a specific invitation or not.  The 9th was also where
Phill Gross explicitly said the IETF's constituency was "the whole
Internet community".

If Phill sees this I hope he'll respond.

On 12/04/2006 11:36 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > It continued as "people who work on ARPAnet/Internet connected
>     > networks"
> 
> Well, US Federal Government funded (along with a few foreign partners, but I
> think some of them were actually DARPA-funded - I think UCL was, IIRC). There
> was this thing called the FRICC, which stood for "Federal Research Internet
> Coordinating Committee", which was really the Internet governing body after
> it left off being a DARPA research thing.

The FRICC was for US Govt inter-agency coordination but when was
PSINet formed?  I think that was a significant point because it was
the first for-profit ISP.  It would be interesting to go through the
IETF participants lists and see where Marty Schoffstall's affiliation
changed.

> Of course, even before that formal decision there was also a certain amount of
> sub-rosa Internet spread, too. That's because unlike an ARPANet connection,
> which necessarily involved getting the Feds in the loop because one had to
> connect directly to it, one could hook onto the Internet via some
> friendly/brave site which let you go through them, provided you could come up
> with a plausible link to government-support activity to cover the posteriors
> of your co-conspirators.  E.g. Proteon's initial Internet connectivity was via
> MIT, which justified it on the ground that they were using it to support
> government contractors.

and lots of for-profit companies connected to the regionals because
they were doing business with universities on NSFNET.


> And, in a similar fashion, one could slide into the IETF meetings to, if one
> knew people and could make it sound plausible; e.g. I seem to recall getting
> people from Proteon (as opposed to me going as a long-standing member, and
> being a link to Proteon) to IETF's pretty early on.

Yes, I think you invited someone from Proteon to the 4th meeting.

swb


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Dec  4 08:53:19 2006
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 2006 11:53:19 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
Message-ID: <20061204165319.B857787325@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)

    > even before it became the IETF.
    > (It was the Internet Architecture Task Force before that ..)

Ooops, memory error. (Never rely on memory!) It was the "Gateway Algorithms
and Data Structures", before it was split into InEng (IETF) and InArc. InArc
died out, and I think the IRTF was created later (IIRC, which I probably
don't :-).

	Noel


From craig at aland.bbn.com  Mon Dec  4 09:04:42 2006
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:04:42 -0500
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:53:19 EST."
	<20061204165319.B857787325@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> 
Message-ID: <20061204170442.A817D64@aland.bbn.com>


In message <20061204165319.B857787325 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Noel Chiappa writes
:

>    > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
>
>    > even before it became the IETF.
>    > (It was the Internet Architecture Task Force before that ..)
>
>Ooops, memory error. (Never rely on memory!) It was the "Gateway Algorithms
>and Data Structures", before it was split into InEng (IETF) and InArc. InArc
>died out, and I think the IRTF was created later (IIRC, which I probably
>don't :-).

As I recall, InArc met twice or three times.  The last meeting was a big
open meeting with lots of fun talks -- as I recall, at UDel.

It had no relation to IRTF, which was created later as part of the
reorganization, when it became clear that the IETF dwarfed the other
IAB Task Forces.  So all the other task forces were renamed working
groups and rolled into a structure called the IRTF.

Craig


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Dec  4 09:17:16 2006
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 2006 12:17:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
Message-ID: <20061204171716.B4F2887322@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com>

    > The 5th IETF was, I believe, open to anyone.

Craig, I'm not sure that "open to anyone" is really an apt description; I'm
not sure that some random person coming in off the street would have been
allowed in. I suspect it was more like NSF had been added to the list of
organizations that could send people.

E.g. look at the attendance list from IETF 6. Other than a couple of people
from Proteon, someone from ACC and U-B, and Len Bosack from the newly-formed
Cisco (whose email address was at HP!), there aren't any commercial people
there other than the usual government contractors (BBN, SRI, Unisys, etc) -
and to some degree, ACC was a contractor too. (Of course, most corporations
did't have a clue about the desirability of being there - this was, after
all, 1987...)

I don't have time to look at attendee lists, but I suspect you have to go a
few meetings further out, to the time when the NSF-incubated regional
networks got rolling, to find genuinely open meetings.

    > I've never gotten the full story on IETFS 1 through 4

Well, I was at 1, 2 and 4, and to my recollection, it was pretty much the
same as 6; i.e. you knew people, or were contractors, or something - some
real involvement with the Internet that allowed you to come. If you look at
the attendee list from 4, for example, it looks pretty much like the list
from 6.

I really don't know (and probably never did) who made the formal OK/not-OK
decision on attendance. It may indeed have been slightly easier to get in to,
say, IETF 6 than IETF 1-2 (which really were limited to government people and
DARPA contactors, I suspect).

My perception is that there was no sharp break in the IWG/GADS/IETF
evolution; just a slow, steady movement.

	Noel


From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Dec  4 09:31:10 2006
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 2006 12:31:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
Message-ID: <20061204173110.2B493872F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Scott W Brim <sbrim at cisco.com>

    > As I recall

Well, your memory is clearly working better than mine (too many strange
chemicals for me, I think - many of them produced inside my own brain,
alas... :-)

    > The 6th meeting had all the NSFNET regional networks.

Yes, but note that their affiliations/etc are all for their home institutions
(various universities and supercomputing centres), so I suspect they were
just in the early organizational stages at that point. Those don't start to
show up for a few more IETF's (Marty S, at IETF 8 - alas, the 7 doesn't have
the full details in its attendee list).

    > I think you invited someone from Proteon to the 4th meeting.

Goodness, your memory is good! John Moy, say the minutes; I'd never have
remembered that in a million years!

	Noel


From craig at aland.bbn.com  Mon Dec  4 09:35:08 2006
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:35:08 -0500
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:17:16 EST."
	<20061204171716.B4F2887322@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> 
Message-ID: <20061204173508.2FAF768@aland.bbn.com>


In message <20061204171716.B4F2887322 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Noel Chiappa writes
:

>    > From: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com>
>
>    > The 5th IETF was, I believe, open to anyone.
>
>Craig, I'm not sure that "open to anyone" is really an apt description; I'm
>not sure that some random person coming in off the street would have been
>allowed in. I suspect it was more like NSF had been added to the list of
>organizations that could send people.
>
>E.g. look at the attendance list from IETF 6. Other than a couple of people
>from Proteon, someone from ACC and U-B, and Len Bosack from the newly-formed
>Cisco (whose email address was at HP!), there aren't any commercial people
>there other than the usual government contractors (BBN, SRI, Unisys, etc) -
>and to some degree, ACC was a contractor too. (Of course, most corporations
>did't have a clue about the desirability of being there - this was, after
>all, 1987...)

Hi Noel, where you say "6", do you mean "5"?

IETF 6 was very big -- doubled the size of "5" and reflected a serious
desire on Phill Gross' part to expand participation.  I recall that 6
was at BBN and one reason was we had a big auditorium (that held about
350 people) suitable for the anticipated increase in size.

Craig


From craig at aland.bbn.com  Mon Dec  4 09:36:56 2006
From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:36:56 -0500
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: Your message of "Mon, 04 Dec 2006 12:31:10 EST."
	<20061204173110.2B493872F5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> 
Message-ID: <20061204173656.3F01568@aland.bbn.com>


In message <20061204173110.2B493872F5 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>, Noel Chiappa writes
:

>Yes, but note that their affiliations/etc are all for their home institutions
>(various universities and supercomputing centres), so I suspect they were
>just in the early organizational stages at that point. Those don't start to
>show up for a few more IETF's (Marty S, at IETF 8 - alas, the 7 doesn't have
>the full details in its attendee list).

Nope, they were operating.  At IETF 7, Jeff Case announced SGMP and I believe
that announcement included the fact that it was up and running on NYSERNET.

Craig


From mills at udel.edu  Mon Dec  4 11:05:03 2006
From: mills at udel.edu (David L. Mills)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 19:05:03 +0000
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: <20061204165319.B857787325@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
References: <20061204165319.B857787325@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
Message-ID: <4574715F.8060104@udel.edu>

Noel,

As chair of both GADS and INARC, I can confirm your recollections. The 
split which created the IETF was created circa 1985 with Phil Gross as 
its first chair. The mission plan then was for INARC to continue and 
expand the GADS research area and for the IETF to take charge of the 
messy protocol engineering and deployment issues.

Dave

Noel Chiappa wrote:
>     > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
> 
>     > even before it became the IETF.
>     > (It was the Internet Architecture Task Force before that ..)
> 
> Ooops, memory error. (Never rely on memory!) It was the "Gateway Algorithms
> and Data Structures", before it was split into InEng (IETF) and InArc. InArc
> died out, and I think the IRTF was created later (IIRC, which I probably
> don't :-).
> 
> 	Noel


From braden at ISI.EDU  Mon Dec  4 11:19:38 2006
From: braden at ISI.EDU (Bob Braden)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:19:38 -0800
Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 20, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.510.1165253838.6907.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20061204111349.00ae1098@boreas.isi.edu>


>
>
>
>Craig, I'm not sure that "open to anyone" is really an apt description; I'm
>not sure that some random person coming in off the street would have been
>allowed in. I suspect it was more like NSF had been added to the list of
>organizations that could send people.


I don't recall any explicit decision to make IETF meetings closed.
It was hardly likely that anyone outside the immediate community would have
cared, or understood what was happening enough to WANT to come.
  (Those of us who had been involved
from the beginning had only the dimmest conception of where the whole thing
would go!)

Originally, the IETF (like the other IAB task forces) was a DARPA thing,
until NSFnet brought a whole bunch of new operational interest.
I recall that Van just sort of wandered in...

Bob Braden






From braden at ISI.EDU  Mon Dec  4 11:23:25 2006
From: braden at ISI.EDU (Bob Braden)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:23:25 -0800
Subject: [ih] internet-history Digest, Vol 20, Issue 1
In-Reply-To: <mailman.510.1165253838.6907.internet-history@postel.org>
Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20061204112036.02cceb90@boreas.isi.edu>


>
>
>I really don't know (and probably never did) who made the formal OK/not-OK
>decision on attendance. It may indeed have been slightly easier to get in to,
>say, IETF 6 than IETF 1-2 (which really were limited to government people and
>DARPA contactors, I suspect).
>
>My perception is that there was no sharp break in the IWG/GADS/IETF
>evolution; just a slow, steady movement.
>
>         Noel


The IAB did (or fancied it did ;-)) actively steer the Internet development
effort, through chartering the task forces,
choosing their leadership, and requiring regular reports on progress.
It did not interfere with particular attendance at meetings.

Bob Braden

>***********************************************




From the.map at alum.mit.edu  Mon Dec  4 13:33:17 2006
From: the.map at alum.mit.edu (Mike Padlipsky)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 13:33:17 -0800
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can  come"?
In-Reply-To: <45743E5F.7090001@alvestrand.no>
References: <45743E5F.7090001@alvestrand.no>
Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20061204125700.01d48440@alum.mit.edu>

At 07:27 AM 12/4/2006, Harald Alvestrand wrote:
>- The IETF started out as "people who work on DARPA projects related 
>to the ARPAnet"
>- It continued as "people who work on ARPAnet/Internet connected networks"

A Semantic Puritan's Point is clearly called for here.  Given that 
the "I" in "IETF" is for "Internet", unless "started out" is being 
used _very_ loosely the IETF per se _can't_ have started out as 
consisting of people who worked on APRANet-related projects only 
(ARPA/DARPA-sponsored or not ... despite the fact that at some level 
everybody working on the 'Net was _supposed_ to be *ARPA sponsored) 
-- especially since for perhaps half a dozen (or more?) years people 
who were working on what we usually just called "the 'Net" hadn't 
even heard of  the Internet since the term hadn't been coined 
yet.  Indeed, for around four or five years the underlying concept 
hadn't even been publically enunciated ... and that's based on using 
1969 as the first year even though it's doubtless arguable that the 
'Net was actually being worked on before '69.

(And there's at least one person who still regrets that the earlier 
coinage, "catenet", for concatenation of networks, didn't prevail 
over the less recondite/amusing "Internet", even though that coinage 
wasn't one of mine.  [I first heard it from Vint, I'm sure; I suspect 
I discussed it with him at some point in the last decade or so, but 
MiddleMiddleAgedMemory serves as fault as to whether he believed it 
to have been one of his or in fact somebody else's orginally which he 
took up the cudgels for at one point in time.]  But, then, I still 
deplore the emergence of "e-mail" for what we called "netmail" when 
we were inventing it -- and not only because "netmail" was one of mine....)


cheers, map

[who's sitting here chuckling to himself over how many of the Old 
Boys are in a state of shock that he let it go at that, without even 
raising the intriguing side issue of whether the "A" in  "IAB" was 
ever for anything other than "Architecture" and "Activities", much 
less which came first, much less any of the three or five other, at 
least semi-intriguing, side side issues that come to what's left of mind.] 



From cls at rkey.com  Mon Dec  4 08:14:41 2006
From: cls at rkey.com (Craig Simon)
Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2006 11:14:41 -0500
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
In-Reply-To: <45743E5F.7090001@alvestrand.no>
References: <45743E5F.7090001@alvestrand.no>
Message-ID: <45744971.8000809@rkey.com>

Hi Harald,

That general question has been raised here before, though not parsed as 
precisely.

These links may help, if you haven't checked them already.

General history by Henning Schulzrinne
http://www.iab.org/about/history.html

Reflections of Lixia Zhang
http://www.isoc.org/tools/blogs/ietfjournal/?p=70

Reflections of Craig Partridge
http://www.postel.org/pipermail/internet-history/2001-October/000062.html

Dave Mills would probably be a good source for better detail.
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~mills/


Craig Simon

Harald Alvestrand wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I'm writing an article on the IETF, where a very small part deals with 
> its history.
> 
> One thing I'd like to have right in that section:
> 
> - The IETF started out as "people who work on DARPA projects related to 
> the ARPAnet"
> - It continued as "people who work on ARPAnet/Internet connected networks"
> - At some point, it changed to "anyone who wants to can come".
> 
> Can someone help me by pointing out (with references, if possible) at 
> which IETF meetings those changes happened?
> 
> Thanks in advance!
> 
>                      Harald
> 
> 



From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu  Mon Dec  4 20:48:43 2006
From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa)
Date: Mon,  4 Dec 2006 23:48:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [ih] Query: When did the IETF change to "everyone can come"?
Message-ID: <20061205044843.69208872FE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu>

    > From: Craig Partridge <craig at aland.bbn.com>

    >>> The 5th IETF was, I believe, open to anyone.

    >> Craig, I'm not sure that "open to anyone" is really an apt
    >> description; I'm not sure that some random person coming in off the
    >> street would have been allowed in. 

    >> E.g. look at the attendance list from IETF 6. ...

    > Hi Noel, where you say "6", do you mean "5"?

No, I was looking at the attendee list from IETF 6. I can't find the minutes
from IETF 5; I don't have a hardcopy, and the IETF Secretariat's online
repository of minutes (http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/directory2.html)
doesn't have 5.

If you (or Scott) still has your hardcopy, it would be an invaluable service
if you could lend them to get them scanned...


    > IETF 6 was very big -- doubled the size of "5" and reflected a serious
    > desire on Phill Gross' part to expand participation. .. 6 was at BBN
    > and one reason was we had a big auditorium .. suitable for the
    > anticipated increase in size.

Yes, but most of that was that it was held jointly with some other standards
committtee, some ANSI group, IIRC (not sure exactly what it was).  But you're
right, I suppose holding it jointly like that was an attempt by Phill to bring
in more people.

Still, were ANSI committees fully open? I thought they had entrance barriers,
too.

	Noel