From dreamer_1 at gawab.com Tue Oct 7 13:02:34 2003 From: dreamer_1 at gawab.com (Amber Jensen) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 14:02:34 -0600 Subject: [ih] Sexy Silhouette By November 15th Message-ID: <200310072002.h97K2sb20850@boreas.isi.edu> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ar at arussell.org Tue Oct 7 17:29:29 2003 From: ar at arussell.org (Andrew Russell) Date: Tue, 7 Oct 2003 18:29:29 -0600 (MDT) Subject: [ih] Spam/ limits of acceptable discourse in the IETF In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.1.20030928191221.01be6188@mail.lafn.org> References: <200309271753.h8RHr1LH089550@gatekeeper.dunlap.org> <200309271753.h8RHr1LH089550@gatekeeper.dunlap.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030928191221.01be6188@mail.lafn.org> Message-ID: <49362.151.196.168.42.1065572969.squirrel@aconcept51.com> Mike Padlipsky said: > At 06:08 PM 9/28/2003, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >> > Is there a policy reason for the option not being enabled for >> > the Internet-History mailing list? >> >>Yes. The owner of the list insists that it is bad to restrict >>postings, which means we get more spam messages sent to the list than >> actual content. I do not understand this decision, but I don't believe >> he is likely to ever change his mind. > > it happens that i don't agree w/ the decision, either; but i'll > certainly understand if he continues to adhere to it after you've been > ... incautious enough to've sent that to the entire list rather than > just as a private aside to the sender of the first part. i'll regret > it, but i'll understand it. This raises an interesting question, that of posting etiquette and conflict on mailing lists. I've been lurking on various IETF lists over the past couple of years, and am fascinated by how IETF construes legitimate limits to discourse. In layman's terms, how/when does the IETF have the right to tell somebody to shut up? Marshall Rose recently wrote an I-D about this, and there are various characters on the IETF list who like to disagree apparently just for the sake of disagreeing (I am thinking of Dean Anderson in the recent Verisign mess, but Todd Glassey vs. Harald is another recent case, as is the true identity of the contrarian "Jeff Williams"). In fact in the recent Verisign squabble, Keith Moore invoked "Godwin's law," which, if I understood it right, signaled the end of all useful discussion by way of invoking Hitler. There is also the recurring "don't feed the trolls" informal method of dealing with the problem, as well as a suggestion for a more formal procedure for revoking posting rights (a la Rose's I-D). I guess this is my point/ question - In an organization that makes decision based on "rough consensus," what are the limits of acceptable discourse? When do IETFers stop trying to include certain parties within the "rough consensus," or, as Keith Moore recently wrote (rather elegantly) - "In general, trying to teach things to people with read-only minds is an exercise in futility." [see http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/ietf/Current/msg22455.html]. Andy Russell http://arussell.org From gfscho at wm.edu Wed Oct 8 10:09:10 2003 From: gfscho at wm.edu (gfscho at wm.edu) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 13:09:10 -0400 Subject: [ih] re joyce reynolds Message-ID: <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> Dear IH list: Joyce Reynolds is a co-author in many of the RFCs that Postel authored. Could anyone shed more light for me on what her role was, exactly? Was she an engineer working with Postel, a general assistant to Postel, or other? I have read many internet histories but have not seen a good explanation of her role in the creation of the Internet or her work relationship with Postel. I recently submitted another question to this mailing list regarding Postel's RFC 819. I appreciated the several responses. I found them very, very useful, too. To explain the reason for my questions: I am writing a doctoral dissertation and have found a need to know and write more than expected about Jon Postel. To my delight, I must say. I do look forward to sharing my work with the Postel Center when it is done. Best, gretchen schoel american studies program college of william and mary P.S. ((Of course, if I use any of the material that I get from this mailing list, I will ask permission of the individuals who responded to me, and I will credit the mail list itself.)) From April.Marine at nominum.com Wed Oct 8 10:15:09 2003 From: April.Marine at nominum.com (April Marine) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 10:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ih] re joyce reynolds In-Reply-To: <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> References: <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> Message-ID: <20031008101351.N56894@shell-ng.nominum.com> OK, I can't resist. :) RFCs have Author/Editor contact information in them. If you do a search on www.rfc-editor.org for RFCs written by Joyce Reynolds, you can pick out the most recent one, get her email address, and ask her yourself! :) April On Wed, 8 Oct 2003 gfscho at wm.edu wrote: > Dear IH list: > > Joyce Reynolds is a co-author in many of the RFCs that Postel > authored. > > Could anyone shed more light for me on what her role was, > exactly? Was she an engineer working with Postel, a general > assistant to Postel, or other? > > I have read many internet histories but have not seen a good > explanation of her role in the creation of the Internet or > her work relationship with Postel. > > I recently submitted another question to this mailing list > regarding Postel's RFC 819. I appreciated the several > responses. I found them very, very useful, too. To explain > the reason for my questions: I am writing a doctoral > dissertation and have found a need to know and write more > than expected about Jon Postel. To my delight, I must say. I > do look forward to sharing my work with the Postel Center > when it is done. > > Best, > > gretchen schoel > american studies program > college of william and mary > > > P.S. ((Of course, if I use any of the material that I get > from this mailing list, I will ask permission of the > individuals who responded to me, and I will credit the mail > list itself.)) > From craig at aland.bbn.com Wed Oct 8 11:04:15 2003 From: craig at aland.bbn.com (Craig Partridge) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 14:04:15 -0400 Subject: [ih] re joyce reynolds In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 08 Oct 2003 13:09:10 EDT." <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> Message-ID: <200310081804.h98I4FjY002119@aland.bbn.com> >Joyce Reynolds is a co-author in many of the RFCs that Postel >authored. > >Could anyone shed more light for me on what her role was, >exactly? Was she an engineer working with Postel, a general >assistant to Postel, or other? Well, you should ask Joyce (jkrey at isi.edu) But in the interim, here's a short personal perspective. She's a techie (as I recall, she's got a social science degree, but hey, so do a lot of us and she knows the Internet Protocols). She's also got the ideal temperament for an editor: polite, careful, and when necessary, in-your-face firm. For a period of time she was an AD on the IESG. My personal sense is that Joyce and Jon worked well together for a number of reasons including: * Joyce was much more organized than Jon, and so things that required organized care such as assigned numbers, figuring out which RFCs were obsoleted, keeping number spaces straight, was something she did well, while Jon periodically messed them up. * She could run interference on Jon's behalf with authors. * And more generally, because they worked well together, she could pick up things on the RFC Editor's desk and run with them when Jon's prominence kept him from moving forward on RFCs as fast as needed. (My sense, perhaps wrong, is that Joyce typically read the RFCs before Jon did, and I suspect that many junk RFCs never saw Jon's desk). I should note that I had the privilege of working a lot with Joyce in the late 1980s and early 1990s and it was always a pleasure (especially when we conspired to tease Paul Mockapetris:-)). Craig From touch at ISI.EDU Wed Oct 8 11:18:53 2003 From: touch at ISI.EDU (Joe Touch) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 11:18:53 -0700 Subject: [ih] Spam/ limits of acceptable discourse in the IETF In-Reply-To: <49362.151.196.168.42.1065572969.squirrel@aconcept51.com> References: <200309271753.h8RHr1LH089550@gatekeeper.dunlap.org> <200309271753.h8RHr1LH089550@gatekeeper.dunlap.org> <5.2.1.1.1.20030928191221.01be6188@mail.lafn.org> <49362.151.196.168.42.1065572969.squirrel@aconcept51.com> Message-ID: <3F84550D.2090006@isi.edu> Andrew Russell wrote: > Mike Padlipsky said: > >>At 06:08 PM 9/28/2003, Perry E. Metzger wrote: >> >>>>Is there a policy reason for the option not being enabled for >>>>the Internet-History mailing list? >>> >>>Yes. The owner of the list insists that it is bad to restrict >>>postings, which means we get more spam messages sent to the list than >>>actual content. I do not understand this decision, but I don't believe >>>he is likely to ever change his mind. >> >>it happens that i don't agree w/ the decision, either; but i'll >>certainly understand if he continues to adhere to it after you've been >>... incautious enough to've sent that to the entire list rather than >>just as a private aside to the sender of the first part. i'll regret >>it, but i'll understand it. > > This raises an interesting question, that of posting etiquette and > conflict on mailing lists. I've been lurking on various IETF lists over > the past couple of years, and am fascinated by how IETF construes > legitimate limits to discourse. In layman's terms, how/when does the IETF > have the right to tell somebody to shut up? Please continue this discussion on an IETF list. This list has no relationship to the management of the IETF or its lists. Joe From gfscho at wm.edu Wed Oct 8 12:30:50 2003 From: gfscho at wm.edu (gfscho at wm.edu) Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2003 15:30:50 -0400 Subject: [ih] re: re joyce reynolds Message-ID: Dear April and Craig: Many thanks for your quick responses and guiding information, and I will write Joyce Reynolds directly! Best, gretchen From mills at udel.edu Wed Oct 8 13:10:47 2003 From: mills at udel.edu (David L. Mills) Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2003 20:10:47 +0000 Subject: [ih] re joyce reynolds References: <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> Message-ID: <3F846F47.857730@udel.edu> Gretchen, Geeze, my memory has rust, but I remember JK as Jon's girl Friday and I often interacted with here on RFC submissions, etc. Did I get this wrong, or was she going to school at the time? I don't remember her as a technical person, but as a delightful personality. Dave gfscho at wm.edu wrote: > > Dear IH list: > > Joyce Reynolds is a co-author in many of the RFCs that Postel > authored. > > Could anyone shed more light for me on what her role was, > exactly? Was she an engineer working with Postel, a general > assistant to Postel, or other? > > I have read many internet histories but have not seen a good > explanation of her role in the creation of the Internet or > herGretchen, work relationship with Postel. > > I recently submitted another question to this mailing list > regarding Postel's RFC 819. I appreciated the several > responses. I found them very, very useful, too. To explain > the reason for my questions: I am writing a doctoral > dissertation and have found a need to know and write more > than expected about Jon Postel. To my delight, I must say. I > do look forward to sharing my work with the Postel Center > when it is done. > > Best, > > gretchen schoel > american studies program > college of william and mary > > P.S. ((Of course, if I use any of the material that I get > from this mailing list, I will ask permission of the > individuals who responded to me, and I will credit the mail > list itself.)) From jkrey at ISI.EDU Thu Oct 9 10:09:53 2003 From: jkrey at ISI.EDU (Joyce Reynolds) Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2003 10:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ih] Joyce K. Reynolds Message-ID: <200310091709.h99H9rb03834@boreas.isi.edu> For those "inquiring" minds... Joyce K. Reynolds Ms. Reynolds holds bachelor's and master's degrees from the University of Southern California. Since 1979, she has been with USC-ISI, where she currently is the co-principal investigator of the RFC Editor project. Ms. Reynolds has contributed to the development of the DARPA Experimental Multimedia Mail System, the Post Office Protocol, the Telnet Protocol, and the Telnet Option Specifications. She helped update the File Transfer Protocol (FTP). For eighteen years, Ms. Reynolds worked on the IANA project. She performed the IANA functions with Jon Postel from 1983 until Postel's death in October 1998. She continued to perform the IANA protocol parameter tasks on loan from ISI to ICANN, from 1998 to 2001. She was IANA liaison to the IESG from 1998 to 2001. Her current interests include the RFC Editor project. Ms. Reynolds has been affiliated with this effort since 1987. She is the RFC Editor liaison to the IAB and the IESG. Ms. Reynolds has been a member of the IETF since 1988. She developed, organized, and directed the User Services Area of the IETF from 1988 - 1998. She established a new informational series of notes for the Internet community: FYI (For Your Information) RFCs. For the last seventeen years, she has been an international keynote speaker and panelist of over 90 different conferences in Europe, Asia-Pacific, Scandinavia, and the Middle East. She has authored or co-authored over 95 RFCs and additional international publications. Ms. Reynolds is a past member of the IESG of the IETF. She is a recipient of the Internet Society (ISOC) service recognition plaque for outstanding contributions to the IETF. She is a Pioneer Member of ISOC, a past member of the Editorial Advisory Board of ISOC, and past Associate Editor of the Internet Society News. She is a member of American Society of Professional and Executive Women, and is affiliated with Phi Alpha Theta (Honors Society). She is currently listed in Who's Who in the American Society of Professional and Executive Women and USC's Who's Who in the College of Letters, Arts, and Sciences Alumni Directory. From touch at ISI.EDU Thu Oct 9 11:46:20 2003 From: touch at ISI.EDU (Joe Touch) Date: Thu, 09 Oct 2003 11:46:20 -0700 Subject: [ih] re joyce reynolds In-Reply-To: <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> References: <64c1e2.cfaad032.81ffc00@m4000.it.wm.edu> Message-ID: <3F85ACFC.6090601@isi.edu> FWIW, since her web page is under reconstruction: gfscho at wm.edu wrote: > Dear IH list: > > Joyce Reynolds is a co-author in many of the RFCs that Postel > authored. > > Could anyone shed more light for me on what her role was, > exactly? Was she an engineer working with Postel, a general > assistant to Postel, or other? Assistants aren't listed as co-authors, AFAIK, in general. ;-) Nor do they travel the globe participating in their own right in the IETF, or providing keynotes at various technical conferences. ;-) She is an ISI researcher, one who worked with Jon Postel for many years, and worked and continues to work with Bob Braden and the 60+ other people in USC/ISI's Computer Networks Division: http://www.isi.edu/div7 My own perception of Joyce's influence on the Internet is compartmentalized; perhaps the number of different areas in which she participated contributes to the confusion. At least one partial view is that she: - co-author (where author=content) of many RFCs with Jon - is a key component of the "RFC-Editor" position, which is more than one "person" - was a key component of IANA before and partly after its handover to ICANN, which was also more than one "person" - helped define and lead the IETF User Services area I hope that helps... Joe From braden at ISI.EDU Fri Oct 10 12:24:34 2003 From: braden at ISI.EDU (Bob Braden) Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2003 12:24:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [ih] Re: internet-history digest, Vol 1 #149 - 1 msg Message-ID: <200310101924.MAA29819@gra.isi.edu> *> *> At least one partial view is that she: *> *> - co-author (where author=content) of many RFCs with Jon *> *> - is a key component of the "RFC-Editor" position, *> which is more than one "person" *> *> - was a key component of IANA before and partly after *> its handover to ICANN, which was also more than one "person" *> *> - helped define and lead the IETF User Services area *> That's a pretty good summary of Joyce's many contributions. Bob Braden From quag7 at frostwarning.com Tue Oct 21 11:54:49 2003 From: quag7 at frostwarning.com (Quag7) Date: Tue, 21 Oct 2003 11:54:49 -0700 Subject: [ih] Moderate? Message-ID: <1066762489.12031.14.camel@antarctica> I am volunteering to moderate this list, to stop the spam from coming through, if the list owner is willing. I understand that the intent is to keep the list open, and that's fine; moderation might not be a bad idea.