[Chapter-delegates] Follow-up on Chapters Advisory Council Meeting of 17 September 2024
b1harlem nyc
smartnet.nyc at gmail.com
Sun Oct 13 09:58:42 PDT 2024
Full disclosure we received a beyond the net grant pre pandemic so we do
know how to fill out a application it says here
Thank you
Doug Frazier
On Sun, Oct 13, 2024, 12:54 Christopher Locke <locke at isocfoundation.org>
wrote:
> OK - I’ll be in NYC next month. Let me speak to you and I’ll share info
> and talk you through the application process and how we can improve the
> application and help everyone understand why it was originally denied - and
> also talk about the process of notification when an application is denied
> and see what we can do to improve this. I’m also happy to jump on a call
> earlier but very happy to meet the NYC chapter in person to discuss this.
>
> Best, Chris
>
> *Chris Locke,* EVP & MD of Internet Society Foundation
>
> locke at isocfoundation.org | Time zone: UTC -0 | Pronouns: he/him/his
>
>
>
> [image: signatureImage]
>
>
>
> *Donate today. <https://bit.ly/3nUsQmJ>* Help protect the Internet for
> everyone.
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Chapter-delegates <chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org> on
> behalf of b1harlem nyc via Chapter-delegates <
> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 13, 2024 6:40:36 PM
> *To:* Winthrop Yu <w.yu at gmx.net>
> *Cc:* ISOC Chapter Delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Chapter-delegates] Follow-up on Chapters Advisory Council
> Meeting of 17 September 2024
>
> Just to set the record straight the nyc chapter received 2 beyond the net
> rejections over this year
>
> The rejection announcement was exactly like the first except one part
> read ...."we cannot tell you why we denied your application" and the the
> rest is the same....
>
> Our application to expand the live streaming service and our proposal to
> also provide access to chapter members through our Resident Public Safety
> Teaching Network in partnership with the New York City Housing Authority
> residents set up by our chapter and operated by the residents themselves
> and funded by the residents ...not only were they the residents deemed
> unworthy of ISOC board of directors exclusive
> Service Foundations non volunteer controlled grant.(nothing new for our
> community)
>
> We were treated to a (2nd)written letter were we were told specifically
> and I must admit incredulous WHY our application was DISQUALIFIED (this
> before getting our we cannot tell you why letter)
>
> The ISOC board of directors non volunteer Service Foundations (we tell you
> why) rejection letter explained they our group was being denied,
>
> because as board members of the nyc chapter of isoc (we) have a conflict
> of interest because we work (volunteer) with the 501c not for profit that
> runs the teaching network a not for profit operated by the residents
> themselves!
>
> And which I and another nyc chapter board member serve on that not for
> profits board! as volunteers (thesmartci.org) and therfore because of
> same, rejection of our beyond the net application resulted..But wait
> there's more
>
> Our efforts was also rewarded with the dreaded double DISQUALIFICATION
> according to the Isoc board of directors service organization non
> volunteers rejection letters
>
> The nyc chapter application for (beyond the net funds)
> Was further DISQUALIFIED for proposing to spend more than 20 per cent of
> the requested amount on the residents of the New York City Housing
> Authority themselves you know the poorest among us !!
>
> I can not guess why the ISOC board of directors would not want to see
> those community folks get anything out of the enormous sum allocated to
> volunteers by the largess of the Isoc board of directors through their
> exclusive Service provider and non volunteers at the Foundation.
>
> Insert lyrics from famous rap song.."you though I was a donut you tried to
> glaze
>
> Item last:
>
> miss me with the fancy talking new guy wow there is money to hire
> medical doctor ??
>
> Can not make this it up
>
>
> Doug Frazier
>
> Proud member and volunteer of
> the nyc chapter
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 12, 2024, 06:04 Winthrop Yu via Chapter-delegates <
> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
> +1 Joel, Doug, Christian, Hank, Eduardo, and most especially to Olivier.
>
> Others have already pointed-out that $64,000/year is a very reasonable
> outlay for the scope and quality of the work that Joly was doing. What
> would be the cost of an entire Comms team doing that work, or if this work
> were to be outsourced to yet another tech company (like SalesForce.com for
> a "product" like Fonteva)?
>
> But we are told that we can still have the work done -- simply apply for a
> BTN grant. Well, now we know that ISOC-NY did apply for a one-time grant to
> archive and save about 800 livestream videos. The result? ISOC Foundation
> rejected this *tiny, minuscule* Beyond the Net application, the reason
> given by ISOC Foundation was: "*the total number of requests we receive
> exceed the amount of funding we have available and we must select projects
> most closely aligned to the goals of our Foundation*". A paltry $1K --
> not aligned with goals?
>
> That, ladies and gents, says a lot about the state ISOC (HQ) is in
> nowadays.
>
> WYn
> PH
>
> On 11/10/2024 7:56 PM, Joel Okomoli via Chapter-delegates wrote:
>
> Thanks Frazier! and +1,
>
> This attitude is spread across the various programs run by ISOC! We have
> seen fellows and travel fellowships being awarded to very strange fellows
> who do not even understand the Mission and Vision of ISOC!
>
> The outcome is that the said fellows ride on such funds then quickly
> disappear without trace! Occasionally they pop up - as staff and then you
> begin to see the connection. This is a small world and it looks like our
> former CEO entrenched the culture. I believe any openings in this ecosystem
> should be given to the active volunteers! That is what will grow The
> Internet Society.
>
> My observation, I could be wrong.
>
> Joel Okomoli
> ISOC Kenya Chapter.
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 1:37 PM b1harlem nyc via Chapter-delegates <
> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>
> That's exactly what I was thinking as well.. we have a situation where the
> non volunteers are dictating what is being done with allocation of
> resources. And just refusing to acknowledge they are wrong on this and
> maybe being a penny wise and a pound foolish.
>
> First we are treated to fancy intelligent parsing and explaining (by non
> volunteers) as to why( volunteers) cannot have 64 000 dollars to document
> chapter efforts by volunteers!
> Mostly because they (non volunteers) said so!
>
> When that was challenged we were treated to fancy legal explanations
> courtesy of the non volunteer legal attorney..when challenged by Oliver's
> well thought out logical response we got legal obsification...
>
> Most enlightening though of the we versus they attitude of the you guess
> it (non volunteers) was the revelation that 5 million dollars of internt
> society monies was given to some private group (non volunteer of course)
>
> When Oliver and others asked about how the non volunteers transferred
> gifted..allocated ..awarded 5 .million dollars to another non volunteer
> group while denying the volunteers request for 64000 dollars for
> documentation of chapter work
> We were informed by (non voluteer attorney) you dont need to see any
> documents regarding that, nothing to see here!.. (again because the non
> volunteers lawyer said so) when that didnt work and she was challenged by
> non volunteers...we given More fancy legal word salad with
> obsification on the side just for good measure...
>
> Insert lyrics from well known song "you thought I was a donut you tried to
> glaze me"
>
> We should see this as a teaching moment as a proud member of the nyc
> chapter we see this circular demeaning paternalistic logic all the time in
> our work with the residents of the nyc housing authority... the largest in
> the country
>
> The people who live there are ignored by and on every turn by the same set
> up as we have here ..thier concerns are meet by the same platitudes and
> responses that always deliver the same message only we (non volunteers/non
> residents in both instances) and we only have the only good ideas and how
> dare you question that..and think we are going to listen to you!..
>
> We (non volunteers) will circle the wagons and protect the non volunteers
> and forget the fact that the
> Volunteers are the heart and sole of any society including the internet...
>
> This happens more the we all probably think .
> Notice the resistance over something so obvious and they cannot solve it
> without trying not to loose face and protect previous decisions thereby
> appearing to have no regard or even realizing we are supposed to be and act
> like a team and we they are not!!
>
> This is the seeds of devisiveness when you have no regard for your
> teammates ...point blank full stop
>
> OK none can say we were not told!
>
> Doug Frazier
> Proud Board Member and Volunteer of the nyc Chapter
>
>
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 05:10 Christian de Larrinaga via Chapter-delegates <
> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>
>
> That's not the issue if I've understood what people are asking. The
> message appears to be ISOC is looking increasingly like a "black box" to
> the community saying it is treated as consumers rather than as an
> integral part of the decision and governance making process.
>
>
> vinton cerf via Chapter-delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> writes:
>
> The foundation is formally a supporting organization under nonprofit tax
> law.
> V
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024, 12:35 Eduardo Diaz via Chapter-delegates <
> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>
> IIona:
>
> From your email, I understand there is no formal "contract for services"
> between ISOC and the ISOC Foundation. Is my interpretation correct?
>
> -ed
> ISOC Puerto Rico
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 10, 2024 at 12:04 PM Ilona Levine via Chapter-delegates <
> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>
> Hi Olivier,
>
> Thank you for your follow up email. I think the use of the term
> "outsourcing" in the email below might have caused some confusion. You
> mentioned you are familiar with the “supporting organizations” and how
> they
> operate, but it might also be helpful for me to provide some additional
> background for others.
>
> As you know, the relationship between supporting and supported
> organizations is not a vendor or contractor relationship. Though
> the Foundation is a separate corporation, it is a controlled subsidiary
> of
> ISOC, not a third-party service provider or outside contractor. So ISOC
> is
> not “outsourcing” to the Foundation but instead, the two entities
> cooperate
> to achieve the mission of the Internet Society. In other words, as a
> supporting organization, the Foundation’s purpose is to operate for the
> benefit of, and to support, ISOC. In furtherance of that purpose, the
> Foundation conducts programs and activities that benefit ISOC and
> furthers
> ISOC’s mission. For example, the Foundation engages in communications
> activities at the direction of and to the benefit of ISOC.
>
> As you also know based on your extensive experience with nonprofits, the
> Internet Society Board develops the overall strategy for ISOC. Internet
> Society management then develops its action plan and in turn, works with
> the Foundation to ensure that it, as a supporting organization, provides
> the support necessary to achieve ISOC’s goals. The Foundation does that
> through its own action plan, which sets out objectives for all of its
> functions, including the communications function. So the Board sets the
> strategy, Internet Society management creates the action plans, and the
> Foundation management allocates resources to support those plans as
> necessary.
>
> After the approval of the 2025 action plans, ISOC will share them with
> the community. As discussed earlier, part of that will be Chris
> presenting
> to this community how the communications group will be tackling its work
> in
> the upcoming year.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ilona
>
>
> *From: *Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com
> *Date: *Tuesday, October 8, 2024 at 8:47 AM
> *To: *Ilona Levine <levine at isoc.org, Ted IETF <ted.ietf at gmail.com
> *Cc: *Chapter Delegates <Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org, Sally
> Wentworth <wentworth at isoc.org
> *Subject: *Re: Follow-up on Chapters Advisory Council Meeting of 17
> September 2024
>
> Dear Ilona,
>
> Further to our discussion two weeks ago regarding the definition of the
> relationship between the Internet Society and the Internet Society
> Foundation, in the absence of your response, I wish to reiterate the need
> for a clear outsourcing agreement between these entities. It is
> recognised
> as good business practice internationally to establish such agreements to
> delineate respective liabilities in the execution of these contracts.
>
> Responding to your note: "*All necessary legal documents, including
> agreements, have been put in place to respect the separate nature of the
> two organizations.*"
>
> All I am asking is for them to be shared. If that is not possible, even
> in a redacted manner, for whatever reason, then please provide a list of
> the agreements to which you refer, including the date of the agreement,
> the
> name of the agreement, the signatory parties, and a brief description of
> each agreement.
>
> Looking forward to your prompt response.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier Crépin-Leblond
>
>
> On 24/09/2024 17:22, Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond wrote:
>
> Dear Ilona,
>
> Many thanks for your follow-up.
>
> The thread may not have come all through. During the Chapter Advisory
> Council call, Ted mentioned the transfer of some responsibilities in
> relation to Communications from the Internet Society to the Internet
> Society Foundation. My initial question to Ted was in regards to the
> outsourcing agreement as follows:
>
> *"I was previously unaware of this change. Although the Internet Society
> Foundation may have been designated by the Internet Society as a
> "supporting organisation" of the Internet Society, it remains a distinct
> and separate legal entity. Therefore, I assume that any "outsourcing" of
> responsibilities such as Marketing and/or Communications would be defined
> in a written "contract for services" between the Parties setting out
> (inter-alia) the terms, rights, and obligations of each Party. Could you
> please provide the terms for such an agreement and any limitations
> therein?
> My principal concern lies in distinguishing between executing the
> Communications Plan and drafting the Communications Plan. These are
> fundamentally different tasks and would undoubtedly be included in the
> "contract for services"".*
>
> The top level responsibility of the strategy of the Internet Society
> remains within the Internet Society. I find it surprising that an
> outsourcing entity would be able to dictate that strategy without it
> being
> agreed by the Internet Society itself.
> The Internet Society has the opportunity to outsource the execution of
> its Communications Plan to a supporting organisation on the basis of
> terms
> and conditions agreed between the parties. This requires outsourcing
> agreement(s) in order to know where the boundaries and responsibilities
> are
> between the two organisations, including their respective liabilities in
> the execution of these agreement(s).
>
> For example:
>
> Key Components of an Outsourcing Communications Agreement
>
> 1. *Introduction and Definitions*:
> - Clearly define the parties involved.
> - Provide definitions for key terms used throughout the agreement.
>
> 2. *Scope of Services*:
> - Detail the specific services to be outsourced.
> - Include service level agreements (SLAs) to set performance
> standards.
>
> 3. *Term and Termination*:
> - Specify the duration of the agreement.
> - Outline conditions for termination by either party.
>
> 4. *Pricing and Payment Terms*:
> - Define the pricing structure and payment schedule.
> - Include any penalties for late payments or performance failures.
>
> 5. *Confidentiality and Data Protection*:
> - Ensure compliance with data protection laws.
> - Include confidentiality clauses to protect sensitive information.
>
> 6. *Intellectual Property Rights*:
> - Clarify the ownership of any intellectual property created during
> the agreement.
>
> 7. *Warranties and Liability*:
> - Outline the warranties provided by the service provider.
> - Define the liability limits for both parties.
>
> 8. *Monitoring and Reporting*:
> - Establish how performance will be monitored and reported.
> - Include provisions for regular review meetings.
>
> 9. *Dispute Resolution*:
> - Specify the process for resolving disputes.
> - Include mediation or arbitration clauses if applicable.
>
> 10. *Exit Management*:
> - Plan for the transition of services back to the company or to
> another provider.
> - Include provisions for the transfer of data and assets.
>
> I trust that you mentioned: "All necessary legal documents, including
> agreements, have been put in place to respect the separate nature of the
> two organizations."
>
> Thus I would be interested in its details as explained in my email.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier
>
>
> On 23/09/2024 18:36, Ilona Levine wrote:
>
> Dear Olivier,
>
> I understand that the nature of your request is to assist the Chapters
> Advisory Council and Chris Locke in preparation to his session on the
> communication plan. The agreement in place since 2018 between the
> Foundation and Internet Society focuses on the legal obligations in line
> with the Foundation's role as a 509(a)(3) and therefore, won’t be useful
> for that purpose.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ilona
>
>
> *From: *Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com <ocl at gih.com
> *Date: *Sunday, September 22, 2024 at 8:52 AM
> *To: *Ilona Levine <levine at isoc.org <levine at isoc.org, Ted IETF
> <ted.ietf at gmail.com <ted.ietf at gmail.com
> *Cc: *Chapter Delegates <Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> <Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org, Sally Wentworth <wentworth at isoc.org
> <wentworth at isoc.org
> *Subject: *Re: Follow-up on Chapters Advisory Council Meeting of 17
> September 2024
>
> Dear Ilona,
>
> thank you for clarifying that all necessary legal documents, including
> agreements, have been duly executed to respect the separate nature of the
> two organisations.
>
> I am aware of the publication of the original IETF Administration LLC
> agreements with the Internet Society, specifically:
> IETF-ISOC Funding Agreement (2020)
> <
> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_Funding_Agreement_-_Executed_-_20201123.pdf
> IETF-ISOC Funding Agreement Amendment (2020)
> <
> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/IETF_ISOC_Funding_Amendment_Amendment_-_20201222.pdf
> IETF-ISOC Funding Agreement Amended and Restated (2024)
> <
> https://www.ietf.org/media/documents/ISOC-IETF_Amended_Funding_Agreement_-_20240103_-_Redacted_Executed.pdf
>
> These documents are accessible on the IETF Administration LLC’s website
> at https://www.ietf.org/administration/overview/.
>
> Could you kindly confirm whether the agreements between the Foundation
> and the Internet Society are also publicly available? I have been unable
> to
> locate them on either website.
>
> I would appreciate it if you could provide a list of the agreements to
> which you refer, including the date of the agreement, the name of the
> agreement, the signatory parties, and a brief description of each
> agreement.
>
> I look forward to your kind response.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier
>
>
> On 20/09/2024 19:48, Ilona Levine wrote:
>
> Hi Olivier, thank you for your follow up email. You noted that you are
> aware of the tax requirements that apply to supporting organizations.
> Mainly, those requirements relate to supporting the mission of its
> supported entities. In this case, the Internet Society.
>
> As part of that support, the Foundation provides grants to other
> organizations that have missions consistent with the Internet Society’s
> in
> order to fund programs that further the Internet Society’s purposes. The
> Foundation also engages in activities that support Internet Society
> directly. For example, the Foundation engages in fundraising and
> communication activities for the benefit of the Internet Society.
>
> As you also pointed out, the Foundation is a separate legal entity. It
> is a controlled subsidiary of Internet Society. All necessary legal
> documents, including agreements, have been put in place to respect the
> separate nature of the two organizations.
>
> I trust this answers your question.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Ilona
>
> *Ilona Levine,* SVP, General Counsel and Corporate Secretary
>
> levine at isoc.org|
> internetsociety.org | @internetsociety
>
> Donate today. <https://bit.ly/3nUsQmJ
>
> *Help protect the Internet for everyone.*
>
> [image:
>
> https://backchannel.internetsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/image001.png
> ]
>
> This communication is the property of the Internet Society and may
> contain confidential or privileged information. Unauthorized use of this
> communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received it in error,
> please notify the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the
> communication and any attachments.
>
>
> *From: *Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com <ocl at gih.com
> *Date: *Friday, September 20, 2024 at 11:38 AM
> *To: *Ted IETF <ted.ietf at gmail.com <ted.ietf at gmail.com, Ilona Levine
> <levine at isoc.org <levine at isoc.org
> *Cc: *Chapter Delegates <Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> <Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org, Sally Wentworth <wentworth at isoc.org
> <wentworth at isoc.org
> *Subject: *Re: Follow-up on Chapters Advisory Council Meeting of 17
> September 2024
>
> Dear Ted,
>
> thank you for your follow-up on this matter. I am aware of the special
> tax terms in relation to "supporting organisations".
>
> That being said, the Internet Society Foundation is a distinct and
> separate legal entity to the Internet Society, irrespective of the
> relationship between them. As a result, any outsourcing task undertaken
> by
> one, for the other entity, would be defined in a contract, whether
> written,
> verbal or otherwise. If not, there is a lack of clarity and expectations
> about the relationship, which brings potential liability and risk that
> both
> entities are subjected to, in relation to the other's actions. Any lawyer
> would tell you that it is highly advisable to have a written contract, if
> only for legal protection.
>
> Thanks for letting me know that you are travelling. I am copying
> President and CEO Sally Wentworth in case you're unavailable for a length
> of time.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier
>
>
> On 20/09/2024 13:12, Ted Hardie wrote:
>
> Hi Olivier,
>
> A supporting organization is a term of art in US tax law, please see:
>
>
> https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/charitable-organizations/supporting-organizations-requirements-and-types
>
> and
>
>
> https://www.irs.gov/charities-non-profits/section-509a3-supporting-organizations
>
> Explaining how the two relate is complicated enough that there are legal
> briefs on it; I have cc'ed the Society's chief counsel in case you would
> like that level of detail. The summary, however, is that a supporting
> organization is a charity because it supports the charitable purpose of
> the
> main organization. As a result, it can provide services to the main
> organization under the special tax rules noted above.
>
> Note that I am traveling and will generally be slow to respond for a few
> days, but hopefully the links above will get you started and Ilona can
> provide more detailed legal information as needed.
>
> regards,
>
> Ted Hardie
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 20, 2024 at 6:24 AM Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond <ocl at gih.com
> wrote:
>
> Dear Ted,
>
> During this week’s Chapters Advisory Council call, you mentioned that the
> Internet Society Foundation, as a "supporting organisation" of the
> Internet
> Society, is managing the communications department for the Internet
> Society.
>
> Upon seeking clarification, you explained that the Internet Society
> Foundation comprises two elements: one philanthropic (grant-making) and
> the
> other as a "supporting organisation" of the Internet Society. "This
> implies
> that many of the supporting functions for the Internet Society as a whole
> are now part of the Foundation, primarily because the Foundation can
> provide these services to the Internet Society at no cost".
>
> You further elaborated that this "arrangement" allows the Internet
> Society to allocate its budget more effectively.
>
> I was previously unaware of this change. Although the Internet Society
> Foundation may have been designated by the Internet Society as a
> "supporting organisation" of the Internet Society, it remains a distinct
> and separate legal entity. Therefore, I assume that any "outsourcing" of
> responsibilities such as Marketing and/or Communications would be defined
> in a written "contract for services" between the Parties setting out
> (inter-alia) the terms, rights, and obligations of each Party. Could you
> please provide the terms for such an agreement and any limitations
> therein?
>
> My principal concern lies in distinguishing between executing the
> Communications Plan and drafting the Communications Plan. These are
> fundamentally different tasks and would undoubtedly be included in the
> "contract for services".
>
> The "contract for services" (together with any relevant supporting
> information) will be helpful input for both the Chapters Advisory Council
> and also for Chris Locke and his Team (including for the current
> "branding"
> presentations) in preparation for the promised session from Chris Locke
> to
> the Chapters Advisory Council.
>
> I look forward to your response and to receiving a copy of the "contract
> for services" agreement, together with any relevant supporting
> information
> as requested above.
>
> Kindest regards,
>
> Olivier
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://community.internetsociety.org.
> -
> View the Internet Society Code of Conduct:
> https://www.internetsociety.org/become-a-member/code-of-conduct/
>
>
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