[Chapter-delegates] ISOC open letter
Christian de Larrinaga
cdel at firsthand.net
Thu May 20 09:04:14 PDT 2021
Great! I entirely agree. The policy sphere is now so complex as
the agenda of misinformation arming political ambitions is passed
around the world that we have to join up the threads or else,
Christian
On Thu 20 May 2021 at 16:29, Veni Markovski <veni at veni.com> wrote:
> Thanks, Christian.
> My questions were answered. I also hope this discussion could be
> useful for
> future such open letters from ISOC - both to reach out to
> members (we didn't
> get this one in the mailing list of the chapters leaders), but
> also to
> encourage them, esp. the chapters, to seek ISOC's involvement in
> national
> policy and regulatory discussions, where chapters might need
> access to ISOC's
> huge resource pool, and it's brand and recognition, in order to
> positively
> influence the outcome of such discussions.
>
> v/
>
> On 5/20/21 11:19, Christian de Larrinaga via Chapter-delegates
> wrote:
>
>
> Rather than toss the semantics of layering or not to layer,
> into a melee of
> confusions.
>
> Let's just agree that we are here because we want an open
> global
> permissionless network of networks. So we can invent, deploy
> and chat end
> to end under as much of our own rules and initiatives as we
> please without
> being mediated, disintermediated, or interred in a globular
> soup of
> bureaucratic haze.
> ?
>
> On that note I wonder if Veni and Richard feel their
> question(s) has been
> answered?
>
> C
> On Thu 20 May 2021 at 15:22, Andrew Sullivan via
> Chapter-delegates
> <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hi,
>
> On Thu, May 20, 2021 at 11:53:43AM +0200, Richard Hill
> via
> Chapter-delegates wrote:
>
>
> Well, this is a matter of interpreting and applying
> the Internet
> Way of
> Networking. And in any case, I think that it would
> be of interest
> to the
> Chapters to be made aware of what the staff is doing
> before it is
> actually
> done.
>
>
> There are two possible interpretations to this, and I'm
> wondering which
> you mean. The first is that you think Chapters might
> want to know
> these details in advance so that they can have input to
> the course of
> action. The second is that Chapters might want to know
> detailed plans
> of action because they're curious, but do not expect to
> have any
> influence on the action.
>
>
> I agree that in some cases a very short deadline
> would be required.
> But it
> seems to me that, in this case, a one-week notice
> would have been
> feasible.
>
>
> Regardless of how it seems to you, it was not. My
> understanding is
> that this effort came together over a couple days, and
> was influenced
> in part by the realities of committee meeting dates and
> so forth.
>
>
> That may or may not be the case. There might be
> people living
> outside Canada
> that follow Canadian matters. And there might be
> people who might
> comment on
> the general issue raised.
>
>
> Sure. And all of that is still possible, as this very
> conversation
> reveals.
>
>
> As I've said before, the Internet Way of Networking
> appears to me
> to apply
> mainly to infrastructure
>
>
> I know you have said this, and I think I have asked what
> you mean by
> "infrastructure". The basic problem with that line of
> argument is that
> it suggests, without quite saying, that there is a
> bright line where
> one can say, "This is not infrastructure." But that
> turns out to be
> false, because of the way the Internet encourages
> encapsulation and
> component re-use.
>
> The basic trouble here is that the idea of tidy "layers"
> (often somehow
> derived from the OSI model) is really a fiction. From
> very early on,
> infrastructure was found in the application layer -- DNS
> is clearly an
> application even though virtually nothing else works
> without it. Is
> quic a transport or application-layer technology? In
> some sense, it's
> both and neither. And of course, huge chunks of the
> Internet (not just
> the Web) depend on authentication services that are
> deeply embedded in
> certain social medial platforms.
>
>
> Regarding the issue at hand, if some company uses
> the Internet to
> provide
> what is in effect a broadcast service, then it might
> make sense to
> regulate
> that service just like any other broadcast service.
>
>
> It might, if the tidy category "broadcast" would stay
> still. But it
> doesn't, and efforts by the Government of Canada to fix
> these
> boundaries are as likely as not to require network and
> network-services
> operators to impose (in Canada's case, even more)
> arbitrary sludge on
> the network in an effort to conform with
> poorly-conceived directives
> from a regulator that doesn't always seem to have a
> solid grasp of the
> nature of the Internet.
>
> The only practical ways anyone has been able to
> understand most
> of the
> provisions (and they're not all in the bill,
> because a number
> of the
> rules would actually have to be made up by the
> CRTC after the
> bill
> became law) involves mucking with the operation
> of networks
> themselves
> in order to implement the goals.
>
>
> Could you be more precise? What sort of "mucking"?
>
>
> Network service providers who are subject to fines if
> something
> contrary to a regulation happens inevitably make the
> thing at least
> hard to do in the network. This kind of activity
> implicitly turns the
> Internet from a general-purpose technology to one
> directed at specific
> purposes, and increases complexity as a result. Obvious
> examples
> include various DNS-based filters that get deployed and
> the ubiquitous
> use of geolocation for service-provision determination.
>
>
> This problem got a lot worse with an
> amendment that was introduced by the Minister in
> committee (so
> the first
> reading version online doesn't contain it yet).
>
>
> Where can I find that amendment?
>
>
> You'd have to look through the minutes from committee, I
> believe, which
> I think appear in Hansard (but I'm relying on memory
> here as to
> process).
>
> Best regards,
>
> A
>
>
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