[Chapter-delegates] [Internet Policy] Bank Accounts was - deadline for admin funding

Wed Jul 22 06:04:09 PDT 2020

How did this discussion moved from the chapter delegates to the Internet
policy list? I've removed the internetpolicy, and left only chapter
delegates in this current email.

v/

On 7/22/20 08:57, Christian de Larrinaga via InternetPolicy wrote:
> Christine, Is there not a chapter presidents list which is private?
>
>
> On 22/07/2020 09:40, Christine Saegesser via InternetPolicy wrote:
>> Dear Ayden,
>>
>> The Chapter-Delegates list is a list that was created for current
>> Internet Society Chapter leaders to have a place to get information
>> relevant to their Chapter, to their leadership positions and a place
>> for them to discuss and share issues pertinent to the Internet
>> Society Chapter community.
>>   The list was intended to be a private discussion place for current
>> leaders only and has been set up like that in 2005. The archive was
>> therefore also private to current list members.
>> It was brought to our attention that the list archive was by mistake
>> made public in 2009.
>> We set it back to the original intended status.
>>   If the Chapter leaders prefer to have this archive public, we can
>> surely turn this back, but since this is ‘their’ list, we will ask
>> the list.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Christine
>>
>>
>>> On 21. Jul 2020, at 15:32, Ayden Férdeline via InternetPolicy
>>> <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just following up on why the archives for this particular list have
>>> been password protected when they were, for many years, public.
>>>
>>> A response from ISOC staff would be appreciated. Thank you.
>>>
>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>
>>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>>> On Wednesday, 15 July 2020 18:20, Ayden Férdeline via InternetPolicy
>>> <internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Judith,
>>>>
>>>> I have been able to read the archives to the Chapter Delegates list
>>>> for many years. I have never been subscribed to that list. The
>>>> archives have not been private; only posting to the list was
>>>> private. So I would like to know why this change was made.
>>>>
>>>> Incidentally, the archives to this public list have always been
>>>> private, though I have never understood why.
>>>>
>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>>
>>>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>>>> On Wednesday, 15 July 2020 18:16, Judith Hellerstein via
>>>> InternetPolicy internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> All,
>>>>> Chapter delegates has always been a private list.  It can only be
>>>>> viewed by
>>>>> being who are directors or other officers of chapters. This list
>>>>> is Internet
>>>>> Policy and has been a public list since creation
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Judith
>>>>> Judith Hellerstein, Founder & CEO
>>>>> Hellerstein & Associates
>>>>> 3001 Veazey Terrace NW, Washington DC 20008
>>>>> Phone: (202) 362-5139 Skype ID: judithhellerstein
>>>>> Mobile/Whats app: +1202-333-6517
>>>>> E-mail: Judith at jhellerstein.com Website: www.jhellerstein.com
>>>>> Linked In: www.linkedin.com/in/jhellerstein/
>>>>> Opening Telecom & Technology Opportunities Worldwide
>>>>> On 7/15/2020 12:12 PM, Ayden Férdeline via InternetPolicy wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I have noticed that the Chapter Delegates archives are now
>>>>>> password protected and available only to list subscribers. As I
>>>>>> am not subscribed to that mailing list, I am therefore unable to
>>>>>> view the archives to understand the context behind this thread
>>>>>> and to read it in its entirety. Until very recently this list was
>>>>>> public, and had been for a number of years, so I am unsure if
>>>>>> this change to the archives was intentional or not -- but I would
>>>>>> like to ask that the archives be made publicly accessible again
>>>>>> please.
>>>>>> Thank you.
>>>>>> Ayden Férdeline
>>>>>> ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
>>>>>> On Monday, 13 July 2020 20:24, Richard Hill via InternetPolicy
>>>>>> internetpolicy at elists.isoc.org wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thank you for this. Please see embedded comments below.
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Richard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>> From: Chapter-delegates [mailto:chapter-delegates-
>>>>>>>> bounces at elists.isoc.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Sullivan via Chapter-
>>>>>>>> delegates
>>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 19:22
>>>>>>>> To: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Bank Accounts was - deadline
>>>>>>>> for admin
>>>>>>>> funding
>>>>>>>> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 10:22:26PM +0530, sivasubramanian
>>>>>>>> muthusamy
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problems relate to ISOC seeing two "sides", and the notion of
>>>>>>>>> separation as reflected in "each other party". Chapters are a
>>>>>>>>> part of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Internet Society, not a different 'side' or another 'party'.
>>>>>>>>> We are
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Internet Society. At times it felt more like Chapters are a
>>>>>>>>> little
>>>>>>>>> disconnected.
>>>>>>>>> Ah, I see what you mean. Let me respond to that a little, then.
>>>>>>>>> One of the first points I made as strongly as I could to the
>>>>>>>>> whole
>>>>>>>>> staff -- there was an all staff meeting organized for a month
>>>>>>>>> after I
>>>>>>>>> took this job -- was that our nature is in our name. We are
>>>>>>>>> not the
>>>>>>>>> Internet Bossypants or the Internet People In Charge. We are the
>>>>>>>>> Internet Society, and in a society, different people have
>>>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>>>> roles. The role for the staff organization is to help this
>>>>>>>>> Society
>>>>>>>>> succeed in its goals, which are expressed right there in our
>>>>>>>>> Mission.
>>>>>>>>> Many of you have heard me repeat this on other occasions, and
>>>>>>>>> I believe
>>>>>>>>> it is absolutely the case. I totally agree with you that
>>>>>>>>> Chapters are
>>>>>>>>> an important constituent part (not all of, but critical part
>>>>>>>>> of) the
>>>>>>>>> Internet Society.
>>>>>>>>> Actions speak louder than words. As you know, I was
>>>>>>>>> disappointed by the
>>>>>>>>> Board's reactions to the advice from the Chapters Advisory
>>>>>>>>> Council regarding
>>>>>>>>> the proposed sale of PRI/.ORG.
>>>>>>>> The Internet is a network of networks, with each part being
>>>>>>>> legally and
>>>>>>>> organizationally distinct and yet somehow interdependent in a
>>>>>>>> way that
>>>>>>>> depends on rules (protocols) and common interest; it is not
>>>>>>>> strange to
>>>>>>>> make those distinctions while simultaneously recognizing the
>>>>>>>> relationship. In a similar way, Chapters are a critical part of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Internet Society and yet each is distinct from it. And this is
>>>>>>>> in part
>>>>>>>> a legal fact: in order for there to be chapters, and for them
>>>>>>>> to be in
>>>>>>>> many different countries with different legal regimes, they
>>>>>>>> need to be
>>>>>>>> independent entities. Moreover, it is desirable to the chapters
>>>>>>>> as near
>>>>>>>> as I can tell: the chapters want to be independent parts of the
>>>>>>>> Internet Society and not subject to central discipline except on
>>>>>>>> matters where we all have come to agreement. (The "where we
>>>>>>>> have come
>>>>>>>> to agreement" is what the PDP is for, I note, and is why
>>>>>>>> PDP-handled
>>>>>>>> positions are adopted ultimately by the Board of Trustees.)
>>>>>>>> We could be organized differently. For instance, we could have an
>>>>>>>> organization that formally subsumes the chapters as elements of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Internet Society as legally constituted (often called in English
>>>>>>>> "branches"), which would have the advantage of not needing formal
>>>>>>>> agreements but a pretty considerable disadvantage in terms of
>>>>>>>> diversity
>>>>>>>> of views. We could have a completely centrally-directed system
>>>>>>>> without
>>>>>>>> the scope for debate and disagreement we have. We could have a
>>>>>>>> totally
>>>>>>>> professionalized Internet Society and simply form alliances and
>>>>>>>> partnerships with other organizations that resemble the current
>>>>>>>> Chapters, the way we sometimes do with other Internet-focussed
>>>>>>>> organizations.
>>>>>>>> Or ISOC could be a membership organization, where the members
>>>>>>>> have the final
>>>>>>>> say, through an annual general assembly or whatever. "Members"
>>>>>>>> could be
>>>>>>>> individuals, or they could be chapters. Hopefully the group
>>>>>>>> that will (is?)
>>>>>>>> considering changes to the Bylaws might consider such
>>>>>>>> possibilities.
>>>>>>> By the way, what is the status of that group and the timeline for
>>>>>>> discussions?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But I think the model we have is the best one because
>>>>>>>> it allows us to coalesce around our common Mission and yet
>>>>>>>> express a
>>>>>>>> great diversity of local needs and interests as related to that
>>>>>>>> Mission.
>>>>>>>> But it seems to me that to do that, we have to be quite
>>>>>>>> explicit about
>>>>>>>> the formal independence of each part of the overall
>>>>>>>> organization and
>>>>>>>> what the relationships are. So, as John More says elsewhere in
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> thread, to me the clarity on these matters is a feature. It is
>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>> that the formality feels less "familial" than perhaps a another
>>>>>>>> arrangement would feel. But we are facing big challenges to the
>>>>>>>> Internet. There are lots of forces -- including national
>>>>>>>> governments,
>>>>>>>> international treaty organizations, and large multinational
>>>>>>>> companies -
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> -   that want to take away the Internet and replace it with a pale
>>>>>>>>     simulacrum. That simulacrum-Internet (what I've started
>>>>>>>> calling
>>>>>>>>     pretendernet) removes the initiative and control from the
>>>>>>>> end points
>>>>>>>>     and puts it in the hands of centralizers who want to treat
>>>>>>>> all the
>>>>>>>>     users of the network as hapless sheep-consumers.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It appears to me that the private sector has been quite
>>>>>>> efficient at making
>>>>>>> that happen. And I'm not the only one who thinks that, take a
>>>>>>> look at:
>>>>>>> https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/07/01/1004725/redesign-internet-apps-n
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> o-one-controls-data-privacy-innovation-cloud/
>>>>>>> Here are some quotations from that article:
>>>>>>> "Governments may have struggled to regulate the internet, but
>>>>>>> new sovereigns
>>>>>>> have taken over instead. Barlow's "home of Mind" is ruled today
>>>>>>> by the likes
>>>>>>> of Google, Facebook, Amazon, Alibaba, Tencent, and Baidu-a small
>>>>>>> handful of
>>>>>>> the biggest companies on earth."
>>>>>>> "The dominance of a few companies, and the ad-tech industry that
>>>>>>> supports
>>>>>>> them, has distorted the way we communicate-pulling public
>>>>>>> discourse into a
>>>>>>> gravity well of hate speech and misinformation-and upended basic
>>>>>>> norms of
>>>>>>> privacy. There are few places online beyond the reach of these
>>>>>>> tech giants,
>>>>>>> and few apps or services that thrive outside of their ecosystems."
>>>>>>> "There is an economic problem too. The effective monopoly of
>>>>>>> these firms
>>>>>>> stifles the kind of innovation that spawned them in the first
>>>>>>> place. It is
>>>>>>> no coincidence that Google, Facebook, and Amazon were founded
>>>>>>> back when
>>>>>>> Barlow's cyberspace was still a thing."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I think we are all
>>>>>>>> opposed to that, and I think we need to be strong in the face
>>>>>>>> of such a
>>>>>>>> challenge.
>>>>>>>> Agreed. So, once again, I invite ISOC to join the coalition of
>>>>>>>> those who
>>>>>>>> oppose using free trade agreements, which are negotiated in
>>>>>>>> secret by
>>>>>>>> governments, to make binding international rules that will
>>>>>>>> enshrine exactly
>>>>>>>> what we don't want: the continuing drift to the "pretendernet",
>>>>>>>> that is
>>>>>>>> towards the simulacrum of the Internet we actually want.
>>>>>>>> Clear and empowering agreements
>>>>>>>> among ourselves is one such form of strength, as long as we
>>>>>>>> recognize
>>>>>>>> that that is why we are entering into agreement in the first
>>>>>>>> place.
>>>>>>>> Nothing is so bad for fighting a common enemy as dissention in
>>>>>>>> one's
>>>>>>>> own forces.
>>>>>>>> Agreed. And this underscores the need for broad consultation
>>>>>>>> within ISOC
>>>>>>>> whenever important decisions are going to be made.
>>>>>>>> I want to make sure the chapter charters are the means of
>>>>>>>> expressing our common bonds so that we can face in unity those
>>>>>>>> who want
>>>>>>>> to ruin the Internet for everyone.
>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>> A
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Andrew Sullivan
>>>>>>>> President & CEO, Internet Society
>>>>>>>> sullivan at isoc.org
>>>>>>>> +1 416 731 1261
>>>>>>>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>>>>>> subscribed
>>>>>>>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet
>>>>>>>> Society
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>>>>>>
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>>>>>
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>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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-- 

Best regards, 
Veni
https://www.veni.com
pgp:5BA1366E veni at veni.com

The opinions expressed above are those of the 
author, not of any organizations, associated 
with or related to him in any given way. 

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