[Chapter-delegates] Bank Accounts was - deadline for admin funding

[Winthrop Yu]

Thank you. A few clarificatory points and a reply, if i may ...

> "... /by the time I started a significant majority had already signed, 
> suggesting to me that whatever negotiation happened met their concerns/."
Yes, our chapter was one of those that signed; but again based on assurances 
made by ISOC HQ during the calls/discussion that alternative means would be made 
available to those chapters who do not have a bank account in the chapter name.

> "... /since plainly the loss of many chapters over such a dispute would have 
> been bad for the Internet Society/ ..."
Correct, our understanding was that signing the Chapters Letter was a sine qua 
non, and that those who did not sign would not only be deprived of funding but 
also derecognized.

> "/One of the problems with recollection is that it's not the same among 
> everyone (even if everyone was present)/ ..."
Indeed, which is why i explicitly mentioned my "recalling", by way of an 
invitation to others to comment on, challenge, or correct my recollection. 
Noting also that all calls are recorded by ISOC HQ and thus available for 
review, even by those who were not present on a particular call; these would 
certainly have been reviewed by ISOC HQ management.

> "/Regardless, I believe that it _would_ be possible, under the current chapter 
> engagement letter arrangements, for a chapter to find a home inside an NGO who 
> can provide the requisite financial shelter/."
Thank you for this, it is at least an avenue that we can explore, as contrasted 
against previous responses which insisted on a bank account in the chapter's name.

> "/I am quite confident that the "two or more chapter officers" approach is not 
> acceptable given the constraints under which we work./" 
This is regrettable as i do recall this option being mentioned (again, i do 
invite comment, challenge or correction of my recollection.) Any such options or 
alternatives to the hard requirement of a bank account in the chapters name will 
certainly have factored into chapters' acquiescence at the time on that 
difficult sticking point.

As "difficult" as that point is, this is the reason i asked -- /if there is a 
strict prohibition against ISOC HQ funding chapters that are not 
legally-registered, or whether this is something else such as a risk mitigation 
measure/?

> I have read this thread many times as well as the chapter engagement letter 
> form, and I do not see this claim.  Can you point it out to me, please? 
Yes. I was referring to Christine's reply to a specific question i posed 
regarding those chapters who were already able to procure a bank account in the 
chapter's name but do not have legally incorporated status, thus ...
> "/In most cases, a local legal registration is needed for the bank to be able 
> to open a bank account in the name of the Chapter. However, in some countries 
> it is possible to constitute a group that doesn’t need a legal registration in 
> order to be able to open a Chapter bank account. In South Africa for example, 
> it is possible to create "Voluntary Associations" that can open bank accounts 
> in the name of their entity without any formal legal registration. Chapters 
> who operate in a similar legal context are invited to reach out to us by 
> contacting Stine Philipsen/ ..."
The question then being -- would even these chapters now be required to legally 
incorporate?

I would also appreciate a comment on my question regarding your suggestion that 
Chapters form a working group to take-up the matter of the Chapters Letter, 
including specifically the bank account requirement -- /if we were to relegate 
the matter to a (assume ChAC) working group, would any such discussions or 
subsequent recommendations from ChAC actually be able to change the decisions 
made by ISOC HQ, particularly the hard requirement for legal incorporation/?

Again, thanking you for your time (particularly during weekends),

WYn


On 12 Jul 2020 12:40 pm, Andrew Sullivan via Chapter-delegates wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 05:15:59PM +0800, Winthrop Yu via Chapter-delegates 
> wrote:
>
>> IIRC, the "Chapters Letter" was largely a top-down set of conditions set by 
>> ISOC HQ. If there were any compromises made on the Chapter Letter, i do not 
>> recall them at the moment and would appreciate being reminded of them.
>
> I'm afraid I can't speak about the negotiations: I was not a party to them, 
> since they generally happened before I joined the Internet Society staff.  
> What I do know is that chapters were then and remain independent 
> organizations, and by the time I started a significant majority had already 
> signed, suggesting to me that whatever negotiation happened met their 
> concerns.  After all, if not, they would not have signed, since plainly the 
> loss of many chapters over such a dispute would have been bad for the Internet 
> Society and therefore the management of the time would have taken concerns 
> into account.
>
>> During one of those calls i recall ISOC HQ (Chrstine?) mentioning that 
>> alternatives would be provided for this "bank account in the chapters' name" 
>> requirement. Again IIRC, "alternatives" mentioned included possibly coursing 
>> funds thru a fully and legally registered NGO in that country (perhaps 
>> somewhat similar to the "fiscal sponsorship" mentioned by Judith and Joly)' 
>> or to a bank account jointly in the name of two or more chapter officers 
>> certified by that chapter.
>
> One of the problems with recollection is that it's not the same among everyone 
> (even if everyone was present), so I just couldn't speak to what you remember 
> even if I'd been on that call. Regardless, I believe that it _would_ be 
> possible, under the current chapter engagement letter arrangements, for a 
> chapter to find a home inside an NGO who can provide the requisite financial 
> shelter.  I believe (but cannot confirm) that this is a funds-flow model that 
> has been used successfully by other US 501(c)(3) charities.  Chapters are 
> independent organizations, and the effects of the law between the US and any 
> other country is not something I feel competent to speculate about, but I 
> suspect this model is something that needs to be worked out case by case.  I 
> am also reasonably confident (but not certain, and I'm working to get better 
> information) that it would not be acceptable for the Internet Society itself 
> to be facilitating that relationship.  I am quite confident that the "two or 
> more chapter officers" approach is not acceptable given the constraints under 
> which we work.
>
>> yet now we are informed that even those chapters who do already have a bank 
>> account in their name but are not formally registered as a "legal 
>> organization" may be denied funding.
>
> I have read this thread many times as well as the chapter engagement letter 
> form, and I do not see this claim.  Can you point it out to me, please?
>
> Best regards,
>
> A
>
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