[Chapter-delegates] FYI - ISOC statement about on Internet blocking measures in Catalonia, Spain

Fri Sep 29 18:12:05 PDT 2017

Yes, Evan is correct, the response was less than encouraging from ISOC to
formulate a ISOC Canada and this was at a time the a rogue ISOC Toronto
exists that just collecting names but not really a chapter.  As to
cooperation, from the very beginning we have had excellent relationships
with Louis Houle and others in the chapter illustrating that you can have a
great working relationship with multiple chapters in a country.  The ISOC
Canada chapter operates in English and ISOC Quebec in French and we have
members that join whatever chapter they feel is best for their lingua
franca.
G

Glenn McKnight
mcknight.glenn at gmail.com
skype  gmcknight
twitter gmcknight
289-830 6259
.

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Evan Leibovitch <evan at telly.org> wrote:

> When Glenn and I went to create(*) a Canada Chapter, there was significant
> pushback since a Québec chapter already existed,
>
> We were asked to come up with a new name for the Chapter. But what?
>
> Central Canada Chapter?
> Ontario Chapter?
> Rest of Canada Chapter?
> Justin Bieber Chapter?
>
> The problem was that the initial founders were from across Canada except
> for Quebec, so no regional designation was appropriate (or acceptable to
> Canadian members of ISOC). "Rest of Canada" is a term that has actually
> been used domestically, but mostly during times of tension, it's not
> well-understood outside the country and it sounds weird, so it was avoided,
>
> So ... with the full co-operation and support of the Québec Chapter, the
> name Canada Chapter was eventually accepted. An informal condition of this
> was the  promise that if any other regional chapters within Canada were to
> be proposed, we would work with them and not impede. The Chapter has since
> been created and has coexisted -- and occasionally collaborates -- with the
> Québec Chapter.
>
> Brandt, this level of accommodation by ISOC staff in allowing for
> concurrent Canada and Québec chapters is a feature and not a bug. One size
> does not fit all, and the countries in which such regional diversity is
> most pronounced -- such as Canada, Spain, Belgium, Switzerland, South
> Africa, India and the UK -- have very diverse political and constitutional
> situations. Some of these have both national and regional chapters, some do
> not. Flexibility to accommodate differences is not just a strength, but a
> requirement in a global environment.
>
> The situation in the US in which ALL chapters are regional is far from
> optimal. The Washington DC Chapter acts as a pseudo national chapter by
> holding events attended by national policymakers and hosting the American
> IGF. But also consider that If you are an ISOC member in Texas or Florida
> or the country's second-largest city (Los Angeles) you have no local
> chapter and must associate with a distant one or go through the non-trivial
> task of creating your own.
>
> I occasionally hear talk -- rumour level -- that there may be interest in
> creating a Cascadia <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacific_Northwest>
> Chapter that would encompass Seattle and Vancouver. Now *that* -- the idea
> of a cross-national regional chapter -- intrigues me and I don't think
> anyone would or should stand in their way should interest be sufficient.
>
> Cheers,
> Evan
>
> (*) Actually we didn't "create" the Chapter. There was a dormant nonprofit
> corporation in Canada based on an earlier attempt to start a Chapter many
> years previous. Sometimes it seemed like revising the old corporation was
> harder than creating a new one, but we succeeded....
>
>
> On 28 September 2017 at 06:09, Brandt Dainow <brandt.dainow at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I think ISOC needs to improve the regulations for creating chapters.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was surprised to find regional chapters in Spain as well as a Spanish
>> chapter.  The regulations for creating chapters state:
>>
>>
>>
>> “Multiple Chapters serving overlapping communities are not permitted”
>>
>>
>>
>> Without commenting on the Catalan referendum in any way, I think most
>> would have assumed the Spanish chapter covered all current Spanish citizens
>> and/or residents.
>>
>>
>>
>> But the regulations also say:
>>
>> “A Chapter recognizes, honours, and uses the culture, customs, and
>> language of its community.” – who decides when two communities overlap?
>>
>>
>>
>> A chapter is supposed to “serve the interests of a segment of the global
>> Internet community” – but what constitutes a “segment” is not defined.
>>
>>
>>
>> As far as I can see from the chapters map on the website, there is no USA
>> chapter, so the presence of a Washington, New York and other city-based
>> chapters is not an issue.  But most other countries only have a single
>> national chapter, except Spain.
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the ability to create language-based chapters with the same
>> structure and status as national chapters is significant and creates
>> difficulties, especially as so many countries have multiple language
>> groups.  For example, Ireland has a national policy supporting both Irish
>> and English.  Both are equally official languages, neither above the
>> other.  About 200,000 people in Ireland consider Irish their primary
>> language.  There are some regions designated as Irish-only where
>> English-language signs are forbidden.  Does this mean we can have an
>> Irish-language chapter and an Irish Nation chapter?  If we can have an
>> Irish-language chapter, we must be allowed an English-language chapter,
>> because both languages are considered equal in Irish culture and law.  But
>> would the creation of one mean we would be forced to close the national
>> chapter on the basis that it would overlap?  In the UK, official languages
>> are Welsh, Gaelic (Scotland) and English?  Can we have chapters for each of
>> these language groups?  Cornish is also spoken by a few people in England,
>> can they have a Cornish-language chapter?  How would these members, all
>> British citizens, not be overlapping with the national UK chapter?
>>
>>
>>
>> Or is this ability to have sub-national chapters based on region?  If so,
>> how big or small does a region have to be to have its own chapter?  Ireland
>> has 5 counties, each with a population of less than 1 million.  Can we have
>> 5 county-level chapters?  Again, as they would overlap with the national
>> chapter, would the creation of a county-level chapter force the closure of
>> the national chapter or would members of that county be forbidden from the
>> national chapter as a way of avoiding overlap?  The USA has 51 states – can
>> we have 51 state-level chapters in the USA?  And would that forbid the
>> creation of a USA chapter to prevent overlap?  And what about cities?  We
>> have city-level chapters in the USA.   If we can have city-level chapters,
>> how small can a town or village be to permit a chapter?  If I live in a
>> village of only 60 people, and they all agree to form a chapter, can we do
>> it?  If we do form a village chapter, would that prevent the larger region
>> around us from forming a chapter so as to avoid overlap?
>>
>>
>>
>> Or can we have chapters based on the national aspirations of a segment of
>> a national population?  Northern Ireland is a province of the UK in the
>> island of Ireland.  About half the population would like to leave the UK
>> and join Ireland, while the other half would like to remain part of the
>> UK.  Can we have a Northern-Ireland-Joins-Ireland chapter?  What would that
>> do to the UK chapter?
>>
>>
>>
>> If we allow chapters covering regions or languages whose members could
>> also be considered members of a larger chapter, can we have a men’s-only
>> chapter and a women-only chapter?  Each can be described as having unique
>> issues in the internet.  Or a chapter for priests?  Or a chapter only for
>> famous people (who also have unique internet issues)?  Maybe a chapter for
>> Youtubers or Facebook users?
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me the requirement to avoid overlap and to fail to define a
>> “segment” creates more difficulties than we can solve.  We should get more
>> precise about the basis for creating chapters.
>>
>>
>>
>> At the same time, these emails seem to indicate some members did not
>> agree with the formation of the Cat chapter. But I cannot find any
>> regulations about the process of approving chapter formation.  Who gets to
>> decide if a chapter application should be approved?  How public is that
>> process?  What is the process for notifying members that a chapter has
>> applied to be formed? What time is allowed for others to protest or make
>> submissions against the formation of that chapter?  What is the procedure
>> for this?  If someone disagrees with the decision to permit or forbid the
>> creation of a chapter, what is the appeals process?
>>
>>
>>
>> The current situation in Spain indicates to me that our procedures for
>> chapter formation are inadequate for a world in which politics and social
>> movements are intimately involved with the internet.  I think we need a
>> robust debate leading to a much more transparent, open and clear set of
>> procedures and regulations for chapter formation.
>>
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Brandt Dainow
>>
>> Irish Chapter
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Chapter-delegates [mailto:chapter-delegates-boun
>> ces at elists.isoc.org] *On Behalf Of *Alejandro Pisanty
>> *Sent:* 28 September 2017 02:33
>> *To:* Evan Leibovitch
>> *Cc:* ISOC Chapter Delegates
>> *Subject:* Re: [Chapter-delegates] FYI - ISOC statement about on
>> Internet blocking measures in Catalonia, Spain
>>
>>
>>
>> Evan,
>>
>>
>>
>> facts wrong, opinion wrong, and not asking questions brings with it the
>> sad consequence of not getting answers (but maybe that would be a useless
>> effort, right?) We will all have to rely on the official record now, which
>> fully belies your statements and adjectives.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is sad that you have chosen an approach so able to add to the
>> divisiveness that this issue has already engendered.
>>
>>
>>
>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 6:06 PM, Evan Leibovitch <evan at telly.org> wrote:
>>
>> It didn't hurt that .CAT's most energetic champion sat on the ICANN Board
>> for four years. The application for .CAT was initiated, coincidentally,
>> very soon after his term on the Board expired.
>>
>>
>>
>> A casual observer of domains at the time would be astonished that of all
>> the indigenous and distinct cultural societies in the world without their
>> own country, ICANN uniquely sought TLD treatment for this one without any
>> public consultation. The fact that this odd TLD was also grotesquely
>> confusing with a very common English-language word further compounded the
>> puzzle. Whether or not there was any insider preferential treatment going
>> on within ICANN to make .CAT happen, it massively appeared that way from
>> the outside. The delegation made so little logical sense otherwise.
>>
>>
>>
>> - Evan
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>      Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>> Facultad de Química UNAM
>> Av. Universidad 3000
>> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Av.+Universidad+3000&entry=gmail&source=g>,
>> 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
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>> .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .  .
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Evan Leibovitch
> Toronto, Canada
>
> Em: evan at telly dot org
> Sk: evanleibovitch
> Tw: el56
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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