[Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

Mon Feb 22 12:05:01 PST 2016

All,

I am about to go off to the airport and wanted to give you a report of my preliminary findings:

1. We apparently registered our logo in 1996 and again in 2002 in the US. We also apparently registered in other places in the world but I need to dig further for that info.  Note that our branding work would/could result in a new registration review/process.

2.  We have asked PIR to commence an investigation of the Toronto ISOC Web domain. We are also running a check on any other cases where the authenticity of a chapter has been raised.

3. My understanding is that ISC China has been approved by the community for ALS membership. The issue is pending at the ICANN Board. ISOC was asked about ISC China's status and we informed ICANN that ISC China is not an ISOC Chapter.

Each of these items requires more investigation and the resolution of any continuing concerns will require further discussion.  I just wanted to get back to you before I left for a week of meetings in Barcelona.

KB

On Feb 22, 2016, at 6:48 AM, Kathy Brown <brown at isoc.org<mailto:brown at isoc.org>> wrote:

Colleagues,

(Monday morning here). Thank you for all the input and discussion over the last day.  I will do a couple of things this morning and get back to you:
1. Check on the copyright issues raised by Vint and others re Internet Society;
2. Run down the domain name issues raised by the Toronto situation;
3. Get up to speed on the AtLarge issue re Internet Society China.  With respect to ISC China, I am aware of the history and have had a number of discussions with folks from ISC China.  They have been keen to find a way to join us. A concern I have raised is their independence from the government--one that I see has been raised as to ICANN AtLarge status in this conversation as well. Engagement with ISC China seems important; having clarity as to our respective identities seems also important.

Thank you as always for raising important issues; will be back to the list later today.  I am traveling this week so will at least have next steps for us to consider.

Kathy

On Feb 22, 2016, at 6:30 AM, Richard Hill <rhill at hill-a.ch<mailto:rhill at hill-a.ch>> wrote:

Dear Vint,

The Berne Convention is one of WIPO’s treaties. It is called that because the conference where it was agreed took place in Berne. It is common to attach the name of the city where a treaty was agreed to the name of the treaty, for example the “New York Convention on the Enforcement and Recognition of Foreign Arbitral Awards” or the “Vienna Convention on the International Sale of Goods”.

Switzerland does comply with the WIPO treaties on copyright, but they permit copyright exceptions that the US does not like. So the US is pressuring Switzerland to tighten its copyright laws to match the stricter protection afforded by US law.

Best,
Richard

From: Vint Cerf [mailto:vint at google.com]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 12:22
To: Richard Hill
Cc: Alan Levin; ISOC Chapter Delegates
Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

Richard, I thought Switzerland was the home of the Berne convention which has been widely adopted for copyright?

v

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:20 AM, Richard Hill <rhill at hill-a.ch<mailto:rhill at hill-a.ch>> wrote:
And you can add Switzerland to the list for patents, albeit not for copyright.

Best,
Richard

From: Vint Cerf [mailto:vint at google.com<mailto:vint at google.com>]
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 12:19
To: Richard Hill
Cc: Alan Levin; ISOC Chapter Delegates

Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

Richard

you fail to mention France, Germany, Italy among others that have been on the far edge of intellectual property demands (including treating hyperlinks as if they were copyright violations).

v

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 6:04 AM, Richard Hill <rhill at hill-a.ch<mailto:rhill at hill-a.ch>> wrote:
Indeed the concepts of trademark, copyright, and patent are international concepts, and indeed key treaties are negotiated in the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO).  But in recent years, the push continually to strengthen intellectual property rights has come from the US, and the US has not hesitated to go forum shopping when it was unable to get what it wanted in WIPO.  See for example the TRIPS agreements made in WTO, and the attempt to get ACTA agreed. See also the extension of the duration of copyright that is in the TPP.

Best,
Richard

From: Chapter-delegates [mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org<mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org>] On Behalf Of Vint Cerf
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 12:00
To: Alan Levin
Cc: ISOC Chapter Delegates
Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] New ATLARGE Structure Internet Society China

actually, the concept of trademark and copyright is not US-centric. There is something call the World Intellectual Property Organization and its membership is quite international.

v

On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 5:36 AM, Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za<mailto:alan at isoc.org.za>> wrote:
Vint,

On 21 Feb 2016, at 8:41 PM, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com<mailto:vint at google.com>> wrote:
Alan, the question is whether these chapters usurp the good name of the Internet Society for their own purposes and give others the impression that their works are sanctioned by the organisation.

Thank you so much for your wisdom always :)

I agree!

And my note was just to say that I do not believe that the Chinese Internet Society do that. If anything they keep us all wide awake especially with regards to the US centricity of the concept of "Intellectual Property".

Sincerely

Alan

On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 11:39 AM, Alan Levin <alan at isoc.org.za<mailto:alan at isoc.org.za>> wrote:
Hi Glenn,

ISOC South Africa has a peer based relationship with ISOC China. We respect their reasons for not falling under the paternalistic banner of ISOC global and we believe that they do good work within their cultural boundaries. We tow the line as best as we can as a Chapter structure although at the same time we respect our rights to sovereignty in our geography. As far as I know ISOC China has never claimed to be an ISOC Chapter and is overtly sovereign.

If you're speaking about elections, I'm not sure if someone pushing the intellectual property of a community based organisation rates above issues like education, policy making, public participation, etc.

Sincerely

Alan

On 21 Feb 2016, at 5:58 PM, Glenn McKnight <mcknight.glenn at gmail.com<mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>> wrote:

> Hi All
> For the record  I have  been  asking for  our  attention to the  ISOC  Toronto  issue for three years.  As  one of the advocates  to create a legitimate  ISOC Chapter  in Canada ( one of two)  this  group not only steals the site but is gathering information on interested parties.  How  many people have surrendered their  contact information to a mystery group without any accountability.
>
> If ISOC allows  it's  brand to be  stolen, hijacked and misrepresented by false and misleading groups  we  have a serious  problem.
>
> I would like the  silent nominees  for the ISOC Board get off their  hands and wade into this issue.   This should be  an election issue that forces the nominees into the discussion.  If they are silent  why are they running for the board?
> Glenn
>
> Glenn McKnight
> mcknight.glenn at gmail.com<mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>
> skype  gmcknight
> twitter gmcknight
> .
>
> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 10:32 AM, Michael Kende <kende at isoc.org<mailto:kende at isoc.org>> wrote:
> Based on previous experience, I believe China would be difficult regardless of trademark issues.  But if you click on the isoctoronto link below, they seem to have actually hijacked our whole website, which adds significantly to the confusion.  Michael
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On 21 Feb 2016, at 16:07, Vint Cerf <vint at google.com<mailto:vint at google.com>> wrote:
>
>> ISOC of New Zealand also hijacked the Internet Society brand - they eventually rebranded themselves, I believe. I am really unhappy about this kind of thing. I tried for quite a while re NZ and eventually they changed leadership and their attitude. The Chinese have been using the name for a long time without any affiliation. I think it may be hard to get them to stop - the trademark world is rife with cases where failure to defend the mark loses control. The term "Internet" cannot be trademarked except it has to refer to the "network of networks" we call "Internet" (a ten year battle against a banking consortium that was granted the trademark to "Internet" - it cost CNRI ten years and $100K in legal fees and only went away when there was a change in management that didn't think it was worth fighting further.).
>>
>> I am glad to see that Kathy is going to dig into this further.
>>
>> Kathy, do we have a recorded trademark for "internet society" ?
>>
>> v
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 21, 2016 at 9:15 AM, Glenn McKnight <mcknight.glenn at gmail.com<mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> Hi Folks
>> Recently the  ICANN ATLARGE  voted to include the civil society organization called    Internet Society China into the  ALS membership of APRALO.   They are not a  ISOC  Chapter.
>>
>> I have  tried to bring up the issue of  organizations that confuse the public as to what is a legitimate ISOC chapter.  But  no one has  taken notice.
>>
>>  I have  been notified  ISOC  that  the  www.isoctoronto.org<http://www.isoctoronto.org>    has been  a rogue  site for  a few years   I am including a screencapture of the  registration page they have  people  falsely add their information.
>> We need to have a process of  dealing with these type of  false or rogue sites that  misinform the public.   Since  ISOC is  branding itself as a viable strong organization and it turns a blind eye to this situation we have a problem.
>> Glenn
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Glenn McKnight
>> mcknight.glenn at gmail.com<mailto:mcknight.glenn at gmail.com>
>> skype  gmcknight
>> twitter gmcknight
>> .
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> New postal address:
>> Google
>> 1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
>> Reston, VA 20190
>> _______________________________________________
>> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
>> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org

_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org

--
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190

--
Alan Levin
+27 21 300 0340<tel:%2B27%2021%20300%200340>

<image001.png>

--
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190

--
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190

--
New postal address:
Google
1875 Explorer Street, 10th Floor
Reston, VA 20190
_______________________________________________
As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
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