[Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the Cambodian Chapter

[Christian de Larrinaga]

Veni

The point is that it is ISOC that gets the revenue flows, not the
chapters nor a body or foundation promoting local Internet communities
such as chapters. So a chapter only gets access to the .org funds
through ISOC. It may well be that ISOC may have not been awarded .org
franchise without the chapters but there was no agreement with chapters
on how any revenues would be divided up.

There is a moral duty I think for ISOC to develop local Internet
communities and the not for profit sector use of Internet and the .org
revenues are very much part of that opportunity. The chapters who
supported the .org bid for ISOC would seem a great place to focus on to
deliver that mission. ISOC Trustees have emphasised the broad thrust of
this intent but so far implementation has not been strong.

Bearing that in mind I would expect rather more than 2-3% of ISOC budget
for chapter led activities. But I was not talking about that content led
mission. I was limiting my comments to bootstrapping a shared
secretariat resource that Chapters could tap into so volunteers are
supported.  I would be very disappointed if chapter funding became
dominated by "secretariat" or "admin" issues. Ideally we need to try to
keep overheads to a very small level as proportion of overall spend. We
should certainly be aiming to be in the top 10% of NFP bodies in this
regards.

best


Christian


> Christian,
> we have a similar saying in Bulgaria, but the thing is that actually
since the foundation of the chapters, ISOC HQ has been benefiting much
more from them, then the chapters from the HQ.
> One example only - if it wasn't for the chapters to drive the support
from around the world towards HQ in somewhere 2000, ISOC may have not
received the .org, with all consequences. One must remember, that ISOC
had very strong competition, which was technically equally or more
skilled, and the thing they missed was the overwhelming support from
chapters, governments, academia, non-profits around the world.
>
> Some time ago someone here suggested that ISOC allocates 2-3 % of their
budget to support chapters. I haven't heard any progress on that
proposal. You?
>
> v.
>
> On 09/29/13 06:04, Christian de Larrinaga wrote:
>
> Veni Markovski
> 29 September 2013 09:59
> Elver, and all,
> Replace Estonia with Bulgaria , and I can sign it.
> Isoc-Bulgaria had several projects running at the same time, and we
were having paid staff (many here know Julia and Dessi /Dragoslava/), as
well as GOOD stuff to achieve, among which:
> - Creative Commons inBulgarian
> - changes in the Bulgarian telecom laws to become internet-friendly
> - contributions to the ITU
> - participation and reporting from ITU big events
> - get rid of licenses and regulations of Internet services in the country
> - using free and open source software for e-government
> - etc
>
> Isoc has contributed a tiny little fraction of our budget, and two
years ago, when we most needed support for fighting with the bad stuff
at the ITU, 3 chapters - Bulgaria, Poland and Armenia - asked for 7500
$. The request was turned down because "it has been too international"
> I rest my case.
>
>
> On Sunday, September 29, 2013, Elver Loho wrote:
>
>
> --
> Best,
> Veni
> http://veni.com
> https://facebook.com/venimarkovski
> https://twitter.com/veni
>
> ***
> The opinions expressed above are those of
> the author, not of any organizations,
> associated with or related to him in
> any given way.
> ***
>
>
> == Sent from my phone, so any spelling mistakes are caused by the
touchscreen keyboard.
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> Elver Loho
> 29 September 2013 08:59
> On 27 September 2013 16:05, Victor Ndonnang <ndonnang at nvconsulting.biz>
wrote:
>
> +1 Ted,
>
>
>
> I’m following with great attention this discussion initiated by the
Cambodian Chapter intention to leave the Internet society Great family
which lead to the old debate about ISOC’s direct financial support to
Chapters. Before I continue, I would like to clearly express my
opposition to that. For me, It is important and better for ISOC HQ to
empower Chapters rather than giving them money. Chapters are not
“national bureau” of the Internet Society. ISOC Chapters and ISOC Global
are partners who share the same vision and the mission. The direct
financial support to Chapters for their administrative and running costs
will make the Chapters useless, dependent and non-sustainable. If we put
in place the systematic direct financial support from ISOC HQ to
Chapters, we will see many useless Chapters flourish around the world
only to benefit to that direct financial support.
>
>
>
> The belonging to the ISOC great family comes with advantages but also
responsibilities. The Internet Society is already supporting and
empowering Chapters in many ways:
>
> - The community Grants programme gives priority to Chapters projects
>
> - The Event funding programme which helps to keep the Chapter active
each year
>
> - The Web presence support
>
> - The travel support
>
> - Capacities Building and Leadership Program
>
> - International Handbook for Chapters
>
> - Management Tools
>
> - Etc . You can read more on :
http://www.internetsociety.org/who-we-are/chapters/lead
>
> All those programs are ways of “indirect” financial support of ISOC to
Chapters. Many will say it is not enough, but for me It is enough!
Chapters should search for others sources of funding locally and
International using the prestige and add-value of been part of ISOC.
Chapters should think to create recurrent activities that can generate
revenues and help them be independent financially and of course
sustainable. I know Chapters are non-profit organization or group, but
been non-profit do not means that we cannot generate revenues or sell
our expertise (gained from ISOC and others Chapters) and services
locally. For example, when we organize trainings, we can ask
participants for small participation fees and this can help us overcome
our administrative and running costs. But we can only do this in a
sustainable way when we are registered as a legal entity in our
respective country.
>
>
> The problem with all of these measures you have enumerated above is
that they require someone to actually sit down, type out applications,
organize the people, create a structure for them to work in, and so
forth. The problem with most NGOs and, I suspect, with most Chapters is
NOT that there aren't any sources of funding available. The problem with
most NGOs and, I suspect, with most Chapters is that there isn't money
to keep even a single person on the payroll whose job it is to get that
funding for all the projects. To actually run things and organize.
>
> We can have all the meetings we want and we can decide whatever, but at
some point someone actually needs to sit down and get things done.
>
> This might sound like hyperbole, but steady funding from ISOC HQ to
keep one person on the payroll to run things would very likely be *more*
valuable than having access to five times more money as community grants
or travel support or event funding or whatever. There's a huge amount of
money available in all sorts of grants programs all over the world. The
problem isn't lack of project-based money. The problem is lack of money
for administrative and organizational tasks. You're all talking about
lack of funding, but you seem to be missing the most important aspect:
the kind of funding that's actually needed.
>
> Here in Estonia there's a ton of project-based money available, but
almost zero administrative funding. As a result there are NGOs where
people apply for funding everywhere and do all sorts of crazy and
ineffective and useless projects, which look good on paper, but are a
waste of time. Why? Because from each project they can extract the 20%
administrative overhead funding. And from that maybe a quarter is used
for things that actually need to get done. For things, which are truly
important. Which no funding committee really knows about or understands.
Essentially of project-based funds 5% is used to do important things
while 95% is wasted on ineffective and useless [insert your favorite
cussword].
>
> Here in Estonia we could get money for doing conferences on
internet-related topics. We could get money for publishing. We could get
money to do media projects and online education. We might even get money
for doing some cool and innovative web service, which nobody will use.
Lots of funding available for all of that. And it's all fairly
ineffective and the results are hard to measure beyond "we did X". So
what is it that really needs to get done? In one word: lobbying.
Analysing pending legislation, going to meetings, talking to politicians
and civil servants. That's where the problems are, that's where you get
actual measurable results. Is there money for this? Nope. Zero. No money
whatsoever.
>
> So in essence the problems are the following:
>
> 1. You are funding the wrong things. If you want the world to change
for the better, then ISOC Chapters around the world need to be effective
at lobbying their governments to adopt all the fine principles for which
we joined ISOC in the first place. If we aren't even capable of that,
then why are we even here?
>
> 2. You are funding things in the wrong way. There is no shortage
whatsoever of project-based funding in the world. The way you get such
funding is by keeping someone on the payroll who can get it. That
payroll requirement creates a barrier of entry, which most Chapters are
unable to get over. So they languish. And nothing gets done. And people
get angry and threaten to dissolve their Chapters.
>
> We've had this discussion before. The problem is that as Chapter
leaders we are working on a voluntary basis (most of us, anyway), and we
need to get things done locally and in our workplace and so forth. We
are busy and we don't get paid to argue on this mailing list. So if we
say that we have a funding problem, then we get a nicely worded reply
from the ISOC HQ. And then we complain a bit more, and we get another
nicely worded reply from the ISOC HQ. Maybe a meeting happens at the HQ
and maybe someone proposes that someone look into it and maybe even a
committee is formed, or a working group, where ideas go to silently die.
And since we all, as Chapter leaders, have more important things to do,
we give up. We understand that it's an uphill battle trying to argue
with people who get paid to argue. I've seen it way too many times
trying to convince a politician to do the right thing -- he or she gets
paid and can run you around in circles all day long while you gotta
worry about where your next paycheck comes from.
>
> The Cambodian Chapter figured out how to turn the tables. By
threatening dissolution of their Chapter, they don't have to fight
anymore. Now it's the ISOC HQ that needs to find a solution and needs to
do it quickly. Maybe we all need to join the Cambodians out of
solidarity. After all, administrative funding is an issue for most of
us, if not all.
>
>
> Best,
> Elver
> .ee
>
>
>
>
>
> Let come back to issue which brings this discussion live: Making ISOC
Cambodia Chapter a legal entity in Cambodia.
>
> I know how It is difficult to establish a non-profit organization in
many countries, especially in developing countries. When I started the
“re-formation” process of ISOC Cameroon Chapter, I made that goal my N°1
priority and which the help (time and money) of others founding members,
we achieved it. We had the choice at that time to legalize the Cameroon
Chapter as a NGO or Association. The process to become an NGO was too
complicated, so we choice to be registered as an Association (a sort of
small NGO). This is very important because Chapters can only be
respected locally and interact freely with government, private sector
and other groups when they are registered as a legal entity by the local
administrative authorities.
>
> Based on that experience, I suggest to our Cambodia Chapter colleagues
to explore all alternatives of legal recognition in their country. Be
registered as a NGO is not the only way to become a legal non-profit
organization or entity, I hope this is true in Cambodia too.
>
>
>
> When the Chapter is registered as a legal entity (NGO, Association…) in
its respective country, it can easily search or apply to local funding
opportunities (government grants, big national corporates grants…). The
formation an ISOC Chapter is a process and Chapter founding members are
aware during the process that ISOC HQ will not be the only source of
funding for the Chapter (that’s why there is a mention about “Chapter
supporters” in the application form and means of funding the draft
By-Laws). Let’s search for others sources of funding and thanks the ISOC
HQ for all It is already offering us rather than fighting for something
which will make us useless.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the long email.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Victor Ndonnang
>
>
>
>
>
> De : chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org
[mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org] De la part de Ted Mooney
> Envoyé : jeudi 26 septembre 2013 17:10
> À : ISOC Chapter Delegates
> Objet : Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
>
>
> From my perspective these are all very good thoughts that have not only
made me reconsider the way I speak to the community at large, but also
how to move forward with a more productive dialog regarding
administrative support for Chapters. There are quite rightfully, many
different ideas how to proceed and as we all know, no single framework
will be effective in all cases.
>
>
>
> The first full meeting of the Chapter Administrative Support Working
Group (there have been conversations and emails pulling the group
together and agreeing an agenda) will take place next week and there
will be a report out to the chapter delegates regarding the outcome and
next steps.
>
>
>
> Grigori asked that someone address why direct financial support was not
immediately forthcoming. The reason is that at this point, there isn't a
sufficient amount of money to assure fairness or even success, no fully
developed plan to assure buy-in or understand the impact, no measurement
or funds-accounting mechanisms. However, I fully expect progress on all
these fronts by the end of the year and beyond.
>
>
>
> Let me also point out that a number of chapters have resolved these
issues on their own from which many lessons can be learned. The autonomy
of ISOC Chapters is a critical part of your overall effectiveness and
ability to drive our mission locally. It comes with a high degree of
self-determination and a degree of self-sufficiency which many of you
have not only embraced, but insisted upon. I ask you to please put aside
past resentments regarding the perception of ISOC as a "rich"
organization when support of our global mission on so many fronts
requires investment many times our capability. Senior leadership of the
Internet Society supports constant vigilance and adjustment of our
funding priorities to assure our communities are armed as best they can
be to support the ISOC Global mission. These processes are neither quick
nor simple. But your voices are heard and are having an impact, however
glacial the speed of their implementation. In this light, I call upon
the Cambodian Chapter once again, to reconsider it's decision to leave
the Internet Society and work on a plan for the short and long term
viability of our mission there.
>
>
>
> With great regards,
>
>
>
> Ted
>
> Ted Mooney
>
> Senior Director, Membership & Services
>
> The Internet Society
>
> 1775 Wiehle Avenue
>
> Reston, VA 20190 USA
>
> Office: +1 703-439-2774
>
> Cell: +1 301-980-6446
>
> eMail: mooney at isoc.org
>
>
>
> From: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41 at gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com>
> Cc: ISOC Chapter Delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
>
>
> I meant to say the communication can differ from people and channel so
it has be standardized and centralized accordingly, the confusion in
between the can create problems
>
>
> Cheers to Life
> Shreedeep Rayamajhi
> 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
> 00977-9851049683(Nepal)
>
> 00977-9813900099
>
> +1(301)485-9395(US)
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message is intended only for the recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this
information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Eduardo Diaz
<eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Shreedeep:
>
>
>
> Can you be so kind in explaining the meaning of the last sentence in
your message? I can interpret it in many different ways.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> -ed
>
> President
>
> ISOC-Puerto Rico
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:01 AM, Shreedeep Rayamajhi
<weaker41 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all
>
> We all are proud to be part of the Internet society and to some extent
it is our pride and prestige to say we are located through out the
world. As said big powers come with bigger Responsibilities just like
that we need to address the issue of Cambodian chapter by every possible
means.It counts for every member that stand for change and with such
situation ISOC can certainly help the chapter. Its not just about the
rules and principle but on practical ground if there is a possibility
from the ISOC headquarters then they should help because it makes a
difference.
>
> ISOC and its role model of economic independence can be understood and
the pros and cons of funding a chapter is the part of the ISOC board or
whom it may be concern but in reality if there is a possibility for the
Cambodian chapter to help then ISOC should by all means.
>
> I think the communication in between the chapters +chapter leaders+ISOC
broad needs to be neutralized in every possible way.
>
>
> Cheers to Life
> Shreedeep Rayamajhi
> 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
> 00977-9851049683(Nepal)
>
> 00977-9813900099
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shreedeep_Rayamajhi_(activist)
>
> +1(301)485-9395(US)
> Erreur ! Nom du fichier non spécifié.
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message is intended only for the recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this
information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Eduard Tric <eduard.tric at isoc.ro> wrote:
>
> A few years ago , i had the opportunity to participate in a task force
called "Isoc chapter of the future".
> One of the conclusions was that there has to be a balance between what
HQ offer to the capters (direct financial support was barley mentioned ,
among other forms of support ) and what chapters should provide to HQ
(some form of activity , or growth).
> If direct financial support is not an option, the "why" part should be
explained in detail.
> In that case , indirect support should be enhanced (raise community
grants budget and leadership training for chapter key persons )
> Regards,
> Ed
>
> ----- Mesaj original -----
> De la: "Grigori Saghyan" <gregor at arminco.com>
> Ca(tre: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> Trimis: joi, 26 septembrie, 2013 3:07:04
> Subiect: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
>
> Dear All,
> from the formal point "chapter" is a part of one large structure. I
> think it is to have clearly defined relations between "Chapters" (or
> local ISOC structures) and whom? I use "ISOC Global" term, but may be
> "Management" or "HQ or "Board" is better? For each of proposed terms
> there is some uncertainty.
>
> After Cambodian declaration it looks, that there only one real way to
> draw attention to Chapter problems.
>
> Btw, why it is such strong negative reaction for direct financial
> support? And as we see, there is an expression " The issue of the lack
> of direct financial transfers is currently not among
> the solutions the Internet Society can offer".
>
> Here we see the author: it is the "Internet Society".
> Not the Board, not the staff, not the management, not ISOC Global,
> but the "Internet Society"
> Logically, I can understand, that as a Chapter, our Chapter was
> involved in some kind of discussion on that point, there was a voting
> procedure, and such decision was approved by majority? But we do not
> participated in such procedure.
> On the the other hand, if the Chapter is real "chapter" - a part of a
> large structure the "Internet Society" - it is not necessary to ask
> Chapter's opinion.
>
> Clear definition of terms is one of the strongest requirements
> everywhere, I think it is one of the most important points today for
> ISOC community (also undefined term).
>
>
>
> Grigori Saghyan
> ISOC.AM
>
>
>
>
>
> On 26.09.2013 0:19, Elver Loho wrote:
> > Hi all,
>
> > I haven't kept up with this email list, but from what I can gather
> > the Cambodian Chapter wants to disassociate from ISOC due to lack
> > of direct financial support for the basic running and operation of
> > the Chapter.
>
> > I do not speak for my Chapter here, but personally I
> > wholeheartedly support this gesture. If this happens, then maybe,
> > just maybe, ISOC senior staff will start taking the issue of
> > providing support for Chapters around the world seriously.
>
> > Right now Chapters seem to exist more as a way for ISOC HQ to show
> > that they have support and members around the world. We're all
> > providing a sort of legitimacy for the people at the HQ. Do we get
> > something back for this? Sort of. I mean, maybe. To some degree.
> > Though here in Estonia very few people have heard of the Internet
> > Society while our own local language brand carries a lot of
> > weight. Your situation may be different.
>
> > Meanwhile we're battling with basic organizational issues, because
> > we can't even afford to keep up basic maintenance. At times we're
> > even unable to reply to government's requests for comments on
> > pending legislation, because we all have regular jobs or businesses
> > to run. This has to end. If what it takes is for one or more
> > Chapters to secede from the union, then so be it. If the Cambodian
> > Chapter goes through with this, I'm willing to put the question of
> > secession up for debate in our own Chapter.
>
> > I urge other Chapter leaders to consider the same.
>
> > Best, Elver .ee
>
> > elver.loho at gmail.com +372 5661 6933 skype: elver.loho
>
>
> > On 25 September 2013 22:56, Dave Burstein <daveb at dslprime.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Cambodian colleagues
> >>
> >> I'm a board member in New York and respect your decision but urge
> >> you to keep working to resolve this. The board of ISOC is
> >> strongly committed to working with chapters and directed staff to
> >> improve things. If that's broken down here, as it seems, several
> >> board members are surely willing to help. They are dedicated,
> >> committed people who make a point fo responding to ISOC chapter
> >> members. I or a dozen others on this list can connect you if
> >> that makes things easier.
> >>
> >> They are all strong and independent thinkers, most with a no
> >> b______ attitude.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ted
> >>
> >> Thanks for addressing this; leaving it without response would
> >> have been painful. This is a crisis for the goverance model of
> >> ISOC that needs to be resolved at the highest level. As you saw
> >> from this list, a dozen other chapters think this crucial to
> >> solve.
> >>
> >> But "The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers is
> >> currently not among the solutions the Internet Society can offer"
> >> doesn't seem to the point. Is there anything in the ISOC charter
> >> that makes this impossible? If so, please point to it and people
> >> can bring it to the board.
> >>
> >> "Can" is the word you used. I'm guessing this actually is an
> >> administrative decision made by the senior staff, who can, if
> >> they choose, simply reverse the decision. Staff are constantly
> >> making financial decisions an order of magnitude greater. If
> >> staff feel they can't do this without board approval, that's easy
> >> to obtain if it's important to ISOC. As many of us know, most of
> >> the board members are very accessible and dedicated to solving
> >> ISOC problems if necessary.
> >>
> >> "Should" ISOC provide the seed funding here, necessary to get the
> >> chapter started on the path to independence is the real question.
> >> I'm sure there's a lot more here than the presumably modest sum
> >> to share some office space. Likely, a shared or cheap office
> >> space that fits the legal requirements can be obtained for less
> >> than the cost of sending one more talking head to IGF Bali.
> >> Nothing wrong with IGF, but a slightly smaller ISOC delegation
> >> isn't a fatal wound.
> >>
> >> I don't know enough to decide whether ISOC should do more here
> >> and I'm sure there are major issues that haven't been discussed.
> >>
> >> So let's draw in Lynn, Walda or whomever else actually has the
> >> power to make things happen and prevent a deep organizational
> >> problem.
> >>
> >> db
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Ted Mooney <mooney at isoc.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> To all Chapter Delegates
> >>>
> >>> ISOC Staff and, in particular, Membership and Services, are
> >>> saddened by the recent decision and communication from the
> >>> Cambodian Chapter regarding their desire to dissociate from the
> >>> Internet Society for administrative and other support concerns.
> >>> I believe, however, there has been an unfortunate
> >>> miscommunication. The Chapter Development and APAC staff have
> >>> reached out to the Cambodian Chapter on numerous occasions. As
> >>> many of you know, our Chapter Development team has worked with
> >>> other chapters to help address issues nearly identical to what
> >>> the Cambodian Chapter is experiencing. Our offer of
> >>> collaboration remains.
> >>>
> >>> The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers is
> >>> currently not among the solutions the Internet Society can
> >>> offer. There are, nevertheless many other avenues to address
> >>> the administrative support of the Chapter, which are both local
> >>> and long term. Indeed Staff are working with Chapter
> >>> volunteers and have convened a new Chapter Administrative
> >>> Support Working Group to address this issue broadly. We hope
> >>> the Cambodian Chapter will reassess their position and
> >>> re-engage with ISOC staff as soon as possible. Our Chapter
> >>> Development staff will reach out once again to the Cambodian
> >>> Chapter officers.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Ted Ted Mooney Senior Director, Membership & Services The
> >>> Internet Society 1775 Wiehle Avenue Reston, VA 20190 USA
> >>> Office: +1 703-439-2774 Cell: +1 301-980-6446 eMail:
> >>> mooney at isoc.org
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> >>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to
> >>> this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet
> >>> Society Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- Editor, Fast Net News, Net Policy News and A Wireless Cloud
> >> Author with Jennie Bourne DSL (Wiley, 2002) and Web Video:
> >> Making It Great, Getting It Noticed (Peachpit, 2008)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> >> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
> >> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> >> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> > _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> > Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
> > list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> > Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
> --
>
> --
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
>
>
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addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use,
disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email
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>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> Victor Ndonnang
> 27 September 2013 14:05
>
> +1 Ted,
>
>
>
> I’m following with great attention this discussion initiated by the
Cambodian Chapter intention to leave the Internet society Great family
which lead to the old debate about ISOC’s direct financial support to
Chapters. Before I continue, I would like to clearly express my
opposition to that. For me, It is important and better for ISOC HQ to
empower Chapters rather than giving them money. Chapters are not
“national bureau” of the Internet Society. ISOC Chapters and ISOC Global
are partners who share the same vision and the mission. The direct
financial support to Chapters for their administrative and running costs
will make the Chapters useless, dependent and non-sustainable. If we put
in place the systematic direct financial support from ISOC HQ to
Chapters, we will see many useless Chapters flourish around the world
only to benefit to that direct financial support.
>
>
>
> The belonging to the ISOC great family comes with advantages but also
responsibilities. The Internet Society is already supporting and
empowering Chapters in many ways:
>
> - The community Grants programme gives priority to Chapters projects
>
> - The Event funding programme which helps to keep the Chapter active
each year
>
> - The Web presence support
>
> - The travel support
>
> - Capacities Building and Leadership Program
>
> - International Handbook for Chapters
>
> - Management Tools
>
> - Etc . You can read more on :
http://www.internetsociety.org/who-we-are/chapters/lead
>
> All those programs are ways of “indirect” financial support of ISOC to
Chapters. Many will say it is not enough, but for me It is enough!
Chapters should search for others sources of funding locally and
International using the prestige and add-value of been part of ISOC.
Chapters should think to create recurrent activities that can generate
revenues and help them be independent financially and of course
sustainable. I know Chapters are non-profit organization or group, but
been non-profit do not means that we cannot generate revenues or sell
our expertise (gained from ISOC and others Chapters) and services
locally. For example, when we organize trainings, we can ask
participants for small participation fees and this can help us overcome
our administrative and running costs. But we can only do this in a
sustainable way when we are registered as a legal entity in our
respective country.
>
>
>
> Let come back to issue which brings this discussion live: Making ISOC
Cambodia Chapter a legal entity in Cambodia.
>
> I know how It is difficult to establish a non-profit organization in
many countries, especially in developing countries. When I started the
“re-formation” process of ISOC Cameroon Chapter, I made that goal my N°1
priority and which the help (time and money) of others founding members,
we achieved it. We had the choice at that time to legalize the Cameroon
Chapter as a NGO or Association. The process to become an NGO was too
complicated, so we choice to be registered as an Association (a sort of
small NGO). This is very important because Chapters can only be
respected locally and interact freely with government, private sector
and other groups when they are registered as a legal entity by the local
administrative authorities.
>
> Based on that experience, I suggest to our Cambodia Chapter colleagues
to explore all alternatives of legal recognition in their country. Be
registered as a NGO is not the only way to become a legal non-profit
organization or entity, I hope this is true in Cambodia too.
>
>
>
> When the Chapter is registered as a legal entity (NGO, Association…) in
its respective country, it can easily search or apply to local funding
opportunities (government grants, big national corporates grants…). The
formation an ISOC Chapter is a process and Chapter founding members are
aware during the process that ISOC HQ will not be the only source of
funding for the Chapter (that’s why there is a mention about “Chapter
supporters” in the application form and means of funding the draft
By-Laws). Let’s search for others sources of funding and thanks the ISOC
HQ for all It is already offering us rather than fighting for something
which will make us useless.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the long email.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Victor Ndonnang
>
>
>
>
>
> De : chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org
[mailto:chapter-delegates-bounces at elists.isoc.org] De la part de Ted Mooney
> Envoyé : jeudi 26 septembre 2013 17:10
> À : ISOC Chapter Delegates
> Objet : Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
>
>
> From my perspective these are all very good thoughts that have not only
made me reconsider the way I speak to the community at large, but also
how to move forward with a more productive dialog regarding
administrative support for Chapters. There are quite rightfully, many
different ideas how to proceed and as we all know, no single framework
will be effective in all cases.
>
>
>
> The first full meeting of the Chapter Administrative Support Working
Group (there have been conversations and emails pulling the group
together and agreeing an agenda) will take place next week and there
will be a report out to the chapter delegates regarding the outcome and
next steps.
>
>
>
> Grigori asked that someone address why direct financial support was not
immediately forthcoming. The reason is that at this point, there isn't a
sufficient amount of money to assure fairness or even success, no fully
developed plan to assure buy-in or understand the impact, no measurement
or funds-accounting mechanisms. However, I fully expect progress on all
these fronts by the end of the year and beyond.
>
>
>
> Let me also point out that a number of chapters have resolved these
issues on their own from which many lessons can be learned. The autonomy
of ISOC Chapters is a critical part of your overall effectiveness and
ability to drive our mission locally. It comes with a high degree of
self-determination and a degree of self-sufficiency which many of you
have not only embraced, but insisted upon. I ask you to please put aside
past resentments regarding the perception of ISOC as a "rich"
organization when support of our global mission on so many fronts
requires investment many times our capability. Senior leadership of the
Internet Society supports constant vigilance and adjustment of our
funding priorities to assure our communities are armed as best they can
be to support the ISOC Global mission. These processes are neither quick
nor simple. But your voices are heard and are having an impact, however
glacial the speed of their implementation. In this light, I call upon
the Cambodian Chapter once again, to reconsider it's decision to leave
the Internet Society and work on a plan for the short and long term
viability of our mission there.
>
>
>
> With great regards,
>
>
>
> Ted
>
> Ted Mooney
>
> Senior Director, Membership & Services
>
> The Internet Society
>
> 1775 Wiehle Avenue
>
> Reston, VA 20190 USA
>
> Office: +1 703-439-2774
>
> Cell: +1 301-980-6446
>
> eMail: mooney at isoc.org
>
>
>
> From: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41 at gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com>
> Cc: ISOC Chapter Delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
>
>
> I meant to say the communication can differ from people and channel so
it has be standardized and centralized accordingly, the confusion in
between the can create problems
>
>
> Cheers to Life
> Shreedeep Rayamajhi
> 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
> 00977-9851049683(Nepal)
>
> 00977-9813900099
>
> +1(301)485-9395(US)
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message is intended only for the recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this
information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Eduardo Diaz
<eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Shreedeep:
>
>
>
> Can you be so kind in explaining the meaning of the last sentence in
your message? I can interpret it in many different ways.
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> -ed
>
> President
>
> ISOC-Puerto Rico
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:01 AM, Shreedeep Rayamajhi
<weaker41 at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear all
>
> We all are proud to be part of the Internet society and to some extent
it is our pride and prestige to say we are located through out the
world. As said big powers come with bigger Responsibilities just like
that we need to address the issue of Cambodian chapter by every possible
means.It counts for every member that stand for change and with such
situation ISOC can certainly help the chapter. Its not just about the
rules and principle but on practical ground if there is a possibility
from the ISOC headquarters then they should help because it makes a
difference.
>
> ISOC and its role model of economic independence can be understood and
the pros and cons of funding a chapter is the part of the ISOC board or
whom it may be concern but in reality if there is a possibility for the
Cambodian chapter to help then ISOC should by all means.
>
> I think the communication in between the chapters +chapter leaders+ISOC
broad needs to be neutralized in every possible way.
>
>
> Cheers to Life
> Shreedeep Rayamajhi
> 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
> 00977-9851049683(Nepal)
>
> 00977-9813900099
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shreedeep_Rayamajhi_(activist)
>
> +1(301)485-9395(US)
> Erreur ! Nom du fichier non spécifié.
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message is intended only for the recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this
information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Eduard Tric <eduard.tric at isoc.ro> wrote:
>
> A few years ago , i had the opportunity to participate in a task force
called "Isoc chapter of the future".
> One of the conclusions was that there has to be a balance between what
HQ offer to the capters (direct financial support was barley mentioned ,
among other forms of support ) and what chapters should provide to HQ
(some form of activity , or growth).
> If direct financial support is not an option, the "why" part should be
explained in detail.
> In that case , indirect support should be enhanced (raise community
grants budget and leadership training for chapter key persons )
> Regards,
> Ed
>
> ----- Mesaj original -----
> De la: "Grigori Saghyan" <gregor at arminco.com>
> Ca(tre: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
> Trimis: joi, 26 septembrie, 2013 3:07:04
> Subiect: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
>
> Dear All,
> from the formal point  "chapter" is a part of one large structure.  I
> think it is to have clearly defined relations  between "Chapters" (or
> local ISOC structures) and whom? I use "ISOC Global" term, but may be
> "Management" or "HQ or "Board" is better? For each of proposed terms
> there is some uncertainty.
>
> After Cambodian declaration it looks, that there only one real  way to
> draw attention to Chapter problems.
>
> Btw, why it is such strong negative reaction   for direct financial
> support? And as we see, there is an expression " The issue of the lack
> of direct financial transfers is currently not among
> the solutions the Internet Society can offer".
>
>  Here we  see the author:  it is the  "Internet Society".
>  Not the  Board, not the staff, not the management, not ISOC Global,
> but the "Internet Society"
>  Logically,  I can understand,  that as a  Chapter,  our Chapter was
> involved in some kind of discussion on that point, there was a voting
> procedure, and such decision was approved by majority?  But we do not
> participated in such procedure.
> On the the other hand, if the Chapter is real "chapter" - a part of a
> large structure the "Internet Society"  - it is not necessary to ask
> Chapter's opinion.
>
> Clear definition of terms is one of the strongest requirements
> everywhere, I think it is one of the most important points today for
> ISOC community (also  undefined  term).
>
>
>
> Grigori Saghyan
> ISOC.AM
>
>
>
>
>
> On 26.09.2013 0:19, Elver Loho wrote:
> > Hi all,
>
> > I haven't kept up with this email list, but from what I can gather
> > the Cambodian Chapter wants to disassociate from ISOC due to lack
> > of direct financial support for the basic running and operation of
> > the Chapter.
>
> > I do not speak for my Chapter here, but personally I
> > wholeheartedly support this gesture. If this happens, then maybe,
> > just maybe, ISOC senior staff will start taking the issue of
> > providing support for Chapters around the world seriously.
>
> > Right now Chapters seem to exist more as a way for ISOC HQ to show
> > that they have support and members around the world. We're all
> > providing a sort of legitimacy for the people at the HQ. Do we get
> > something back for this? Sort of. I mean, maybe. To some degree.
> > Though here in Estonia very few people have heard of the Internet
> > Society while our own local language brand carries a lot of
> > weight. Your situation may be different.
>
> > Meanwhile we're battling with basic organizational issues, because
> > we can't even afford to keep up basic maintenance. At times we're
> > even unable to reply to government's requests for comments on
> > pending legislation, because we all have regular jobs or businesses
> > to run. This has to end. If what it takes is for one or more
> > Chapters to secede from the union, then so be it. If the Cambodian
> > Chapter goes through with this, I'm willing to put the question of
> > secession up for debate in our own Chapter.
>
> > I urge other Chapter leaders to consider the same.
>
> > Best, Elver .ee
>
> > elver.loho at gmail.com +372 5661 6933 skype: elver.loho
>
>
> > On 25 September 2013 22:56, Dave Burstein <daveb at dslprime.com>
> > wrote:
> >> Cambodian colleagues
> >>
> >> I'm a board member in New York and respect your decision but urge
> >> you to keep working to resolve this. The board of ISOC is
> >> strongly committed to working with chapters and directed staff to
> >> improve things. If that's broken down here, as it seems, several
> >> board members are surely willing to help. They are dedicated,
> >> committed people who make a point fo responding to ISOC chapter
> >> members. I or a dozen others on this list can connect you if
> >> that makes things easier.
> >>
> >> They are all strong and independent thinkers, most with a no
> >> b______ attitude.
> >>
> >>
> >> Ted
> >>
> >> Thanks for addressing this; leaving it without response would
> >> have been painful. This is a crisis for the goverance model of
> >> ISOC that needs to be resolved at the highest level. As you saw
> >> from this list, a dozen other chapters think this crucial to
> >> solve.
> >>
> >> But "The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers is
> >> currently not among the solutions the Internet Society can offer"
> >> doesn't seem to the point. Is there anything in the ISOC charter
> >> that makes this impossible? If so, please point to it and people
> >> can bring it to the board.
> >>
> >> "Can" is the word you used. I'm guessing this actually is an
> >> administrative decision made by the senior staff, who can, if
> >> they choose, simply reverse the decision. Staff are constantly
> >> making financial decisions an order of magnitude greater.  If
> >> staff feel they can't do this without board approval, that's easy
> >> to obtain if it's important to ISOC. As many of us know, most of
> >> the board members are very accessible and dedicated to solving
> >> ISOC problems if necessary.
> >>
> >> "Should" ISOC provide the seed funding here, necessary to get the
> >> chapter started on the path to independence is the real question.
> >> I'm sure there's a lot more here than the presumably modest sum
> >> to share some office space. Likely, a shared or cheap office
> >> space that fits the legal requirements can be obtained for less
> >> than the cost of sending one more talking head to IGF Bali.
> >> Nothing wrong with IGF, but a slightly smaller ISOC delegation
> >> isn't a fatal wound.
> >>
> >> I don't know enough to decide whether ISOC should do more here
> >> and I'm sure there are major issues that haven't been discussed.
> >>
> >> So let's draw in Lynn, Walda or whomever else actually has the
> >> power to make things happen and prevent a deep organizational
> >> problem.
> >>
> >> db
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Ted Mooney <mooney at isoc.org>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> To all Chapter Delegates
> >>>
> >>> ISOC Staff and, in particular, Membership and Services,  are
> >>> saddened by the recent decision and communication from the
> >>> Cambodian Chapter regarding their desire to dissociate from the
> >>> Internet Society for administrative and other support concerns.
> >>> I believe, however, there has been an unfortunate
> >>> miscommunication.  The Chapter Development and APAC staff  have
> >>> reached out to the Cambodian Chapter on numerous occasions.  As
> >>> many of you know, our Chapter Development team has worked with
> >>> other chapters to help address issues nearly identical to what
> >>> the Cambodian Chapter is experiencing.  Our offer of
> >>> collaboration remains.
> >>>
> >>> The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers is
> >>> currently not among the solutions the Internet Society can
> >>> offer.  There are, nevertheless many other avenues to address
> >>> the administrative support of the Chapter, which are both local
> >>> and long term.  Indeed Staff are working with Chapter
> >>> volunteers and have convened a new Chapter Administrative
> >>> Support Working Group to address this issue broadly.  We hope
> >>> the Cambodian Chapter will reassess their position and
> >>> re-engage with ISOC staff as soon as possible. Our Chapter
> >>> Development staff will reach out once again to the Cambodian
> >>> Chapter officers.
> >>>
> >>> Best regards,
> >>>
> >>> Ted Ted Mooney Senior Director, Membership & Services The
> >>> Internet Society 1775 Wiehle Avenue Reston, VA 20190 USA
> >>> Office: +1 703-439-2774 Cell: +1 301-980-6446 eMail:
> >>> mooney at isoc.org
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> >>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to
> >>> this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet
> >>> Society Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -- Editor, Fast Net News, Net Policy News and A Wireless Cloud
> >> Author with Jennie Bourne  DSL (Wiley, 2002) and Web Video:
> >> Making It Great, Getting It Noticed (Peachpit, 2008)
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> >> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
> >> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> >> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> > _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> > Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
> > list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> > Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
> --
>
> --
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> NOTICE: This email may contain information which is confidential and/or
subject to legal privilege, and is intended for the use of the named
addressee only. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not use,
disclose or copy any part of this email. If you have received this email
by mistake, please notify the sender and delete this message immediately.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
> Ted Mooney
> 26 September 2013 17:09
> From my perspective these are all very good thoughts that have not only
made me reconsider the way I speak to the community at large, but also
how to move forward with a more productive dialog regarding
administrative support for Chapters. There are quite rightfully, many
different ideas how to proceed and as we all know, no single framework
will be effective in all cases.
>
> The first full meeting of the Chapter Administrative Support Working
Group (there have been conversations and emails pulling the group
together and agreeing an agenda) will take place next week and there
will be a report out to the chapter delegates regarding the outcome and
next steps.
>
> Grigori asked that someone address why direct financial support was not
immediately forthcoming. The reason is that at this point, there isn't a
sufficient amount of money to assure fairness or even success, no fully
developed plan to assure buy-in or understand the impact, no measurement
or funds-accounting mechanisms. However, I fully expect progress on all
these fronts by the end of the year and beyond.
>
> Let me also point out that a number of chapters have resolved these
issues on their own from which many lessons can be learned. The autonomy
of ISOC Chapters is a critical part of your overall effectiveness and
ability to drive our mission locally. It comes with a high degree of
self-determination and a degree of self-sufficiency which many of you
have not only embraced, but insisted upon. I ask you to please put aside
past resentments regarding the perception of ISOC as a "rich"
organization when support of our global mission on so many fronts
requires investment many times our capability. Senior leadership of the
Internet Society supports constant vigilance and adjustment of our
funding priorities to assure our communities are armed as best they can
be to support the ISOC Global mission. These processes are neither quick
nor simple. But your voices are heard and are having an impact, however
glacial the speed of their implementation. In this light, I call upon
the Cambodian Chapter once again, to reconsider it's decision to leave
the Internet Society and work on a plan for the short and long term
viability of our mission there.
>
> With great regards,
>
> Ted
> Ted Mooney
> Senior Director, Membership & Services
> The Internet Society
> 1775 Wiehle Avenue
> Reston, VA 20190 USA
> Office: +1 703-439-2774
> Cell: +1 301-980-6446
> eMail: mooney at isoc.org
>
> From: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41 at gmail.com>
> Date: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:26 AM
> To: Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com>
> Cc: ISOC Chapter Delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the
Cambodian Chapter
>
> I meant to say the communication can differ from people and channel so
it has be standardized and centralized accordingly, the confusion in
between the can create problems
>
> Cheers to Life
> Shreedeep Rayamajhi
> 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
> 00977-9851049683(Nepal)
> 00977-9813900099
>
> +1(301)485-9395(US)
>
>
> DISCLAIMER: This message is intended only for the recipient. If you are
not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying,
distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this
information is strictly prohibited.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> As an Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed
> to this list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
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