[Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the Cambodian Chapter
Grigori Saghyan
gregor at arminco.com
Fri Sep 27 13:05:03 PDT 2013
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Dear Ted, Veni,
I want to express my respect to ISOC. ISOC have provided lot of very
important information, materials, advises, represented Internet
community in the ITU, provides support for regional and national
Internet related structure. Can say more - it is really very important
to share opinions during ISOC events, it helps to develop local
Internet development
.
As any other growing structure, ISOC faced new challenges:
1. Is it a real international structure?
2. If it is real international structure, it is necessary to have a
formula for formal international representation in the ISOC management.
In UN there is Security Council with rights for veto (5 biggest
countries in 1945). In the ITU there is a communism - all countries
have equal representation, which is not logical and acceptable.
"ISOC Global" have designed new ByLAws, but in order to do it in time,
ISOC Global prepared this ByLaws with some unclear definitions. It is
strange...
Of course, is possible to keep existing ByLaws with unclear
responsibilities. But in that case ISOC will keep most of existing
members without any progress. And will lose its role... If there is
not progress, it means, that it is regress.
I wrote, that according to our local law we have to revoke our
"Chapter" status, but keep ISOC Armenia NGO status. We have to remove
all ISOC.AM mambers from ISOC Global database - it is a requirement of
local Law for Personal Data Protection. And lot of other laws, BTW.
For any organization , it is better to act according to the local law,
but not according to the law of any foreign country.
I want to write once more about my proposal - ISOC can investigate
RedCross model, this is very logical and acceptable model for
International organization. As an option - FIFA, a consortium of
independent organizations.
With respect
Grigori Saghyan
ISOC.AM
On 27.09.2013 19:55, Ted Mooney wrote:
> I would like to eliminate the term ISOC Global all together, but am
> not sure how wise yet this may be. From my cursory knowledge of
> the last two years, it is an informal term, not appearing in any
> official documents. If others know or understand differently please
> let me know. I am happy to refrain from using it. It has been
> used in the past to differentiate ISOC Chapters and Members from
> ISOC Staff; Therefore I understand the term ISOC Global to refer
> mostly to ISOC Staff and at times ISOC Trustees and Staff.
>
> The governance structure of the Internet Society is well known and
> public. Strategy is proposed by the Executive Staff with the
> oversight, input and ultimate approval of the Board of Trustees, in
> which three ISOC supporting communities - IETF, Chapters and
> Organization Members - all have equal participation. Strategy
> proposals are developed with input from ALL communities and
> partners of the Internet Society and guided by our core values and
> principles. Strategy is then implemented by Staff with
> collaboration, input and assistance of members, chapters, partners
> and others. Unless there are historical and persuasive arguments to
> continue the use of the term 'ISOC Global' in this context, I will
> refrain from using it and will be specific whenever I refer to
> Staff, Staff and Trustees, Chapters, Org Members and Individual
> members. I use the term The Internet Society to include ALL of
> these parties. If you agree and we all do likewise, there will be
> no confusion.
>
> I appreciate the chapter leaders perspective on this so consider
> the issue still open, awaiting your additional input.
>
> Respectfully,
>
> Ted Ted Mooney Senior Director, Membership & Services The Internet
> Society 1775 Wiehle Avenue Reston, VA 20190 USA Office: +1
> 703-439-2774 Cell: +1 301-980-6446 eMail: mooney at isoc.org
>
>
>
> On 9/27/13 3:53 AM, "Eduard Tric" <eduard.tric at isoc.ro> wrote:
>
>> +1 Very good question, Grigori. At least from a financial angle ,
>> it's clearly the structure managing the cash. Regards, Ed
>>
>> ----- Mesaj original ----- De la: "Grigori Saghyan"
>> <gregor at arminco.com> Către: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>> Trimis: vineri, 27 septembrie, 2013 0:02:26 Subiect: Re:
>> [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the Cambodian
>> Chapter
>>
> Ted, you mention "ISOC Global" term. I think, today it is very
> important for all ISOC Cahpters to understand what it is - "ISOC
> Global". Options: It is the management of US based NGO. It is a
> the Board of Directors of an International organization. It is a
> the Board of Directors of US based NGO It is something new, which
> was not exists, with new rules. Other understandable descriptions.
>
> Regards Grigori Saghyan ISOC.AM
>
> On 26.09.2013 20:09, Ted Mooney wrote:
>>>> From my perspective these are all very good thoughts that
>>>> have not only made me reconsider the way I speak to the
>>>> community at large, but also how to move forward with a more
>>>> productive dialog regarding administrative support for
>>>> Chapters. There are quite rightfully, many different ideas
>>>> how to proceed and as we all know, no single framework will
>>>> be effective in all cases.
>>>>
>>>> The first full meeting of the Chapter Administrative Support
>>>> Working Group (there have been conversations and emails
>>>> pulling the group together and agreeing an agenda) will take
>>>> place next week and there will be a report out to the chapter
>>>> delegates regarding the outcome and next steps.
>>>>
>>>> Grigori asked that someone address why direct financial
>>>> support was not immediately forthcoming. The reason is that
>>>> at this point, there isn't a sufficient amount of money to
>>>> assure fairness or even success, no fully developed plan to
>>>> assure buy-in or understand the impact, no measurement or
>>>> funds-accounting mechanisms. However, I fully expect
>>>> progress on all these fronts by the end of the year and
>>>> beyond.
>>>>
>>>> Let me also point out that a number of chapters have
>>>> resolved these issues on their own from which many lessons
>>>> can be learned. The autonomy of ISOC Chapters is a critical
>>>> part of your overall effectiveness and ability to drive our
>>>> mission locally. It comes with a high degree of
>>>> self-determination and a degree of self-sufficiency which
>>>> many of you have not only embraced, but insisted upon. I ask
>>>> you to please put aside past resentments regarding the
>>>> perception of ISOC as a "rich" organization when support of
>>>> our global mission on so many fronts requires investment many
>>>> times our capability. Senior leadership of the Internet
>>>> Society supports constant vigilance and adjustment of our
>>>> funding priorities to assure our communities are armed as
>>>> best they can be to support the ISOC Global mission. These
>>>> processes are neither quick nor simple. But your voices are
>>>> heard and are having an impact, however glacial the speed of
>>>> their implementation. In this light, I call upon the
>>>> Cambodian Chapter once again, to reconsider it's decision to
>>>> leave the Internet Society and work on a plan for the short
>>>> and long term viability of our mission there.
>>>>
>>>> With great regards,
>>>>
>>>> Ted Ted Mooney Senior Director, Membership & Services The
>>>> Internet Society 1775 Wiehle Avenue Reston, VA 20190 USA
>>>> Office: +1 703-439-2774 Cell: +1 301-980-6446 eMail:
>>>> mooney at isoc.org
>>>>
>>>> From: Shreedeep Rayamajhi <weaker41 at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:weaker41 at gmail.com>> Date: Thursday, September 26,
>>>> 2013 11:26 AM To: Eduardo Diaz <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com>> Cc: ISOC Chapter
>>>> Delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>> <mailto:chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>> Subject: Re:
>>>> [Chapter-delegates] Recent Correspondence from the Cambodian
>>>> Chapter
>>>>
>>>> I meant to say the communication can differ from people and
>>>> channel so it has be standardized and centralized
>>>> accordingly, the confusion in between the can create
>>>> problems
>>>>
>>>> Cheers to Life Shreedeep Rayamajhi 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
>>>> 00977-9851049683(Nepal) 00977-9813900099
>>>>
>>>> +1(301)485-9395(US) <http://www.rayznews.com/>
>>>>
>>>> *DISCLAIMER:* This message is intended only for the
>>>> recipient. If you are not the intended recipient you are
>>>> notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any
>>>> action in reliance on the contents of this information is
>>>> strictly prohibited.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 8:12 PM, Eduardo Diaz
>>>> <eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com
>>>> <mailto:eduardodiazrivera at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shreedeep:
>>>>
>>>> Can you be so kind in explaining the meaning of the last
>>>> sentence in your message? I can interpret it in many
>>>> different ways.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>>
>>>> -ed President ISOC-Puerto Rico
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 1:01 AM, Shreedeep Rayamajhi
>>>> <weaker41 at gmail.com <mailto:weaker41 at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear all
>>>>
>>>> We all are proud to be part of the Internet society and to
>>>> some extent it is our pride and prestige to say we are
>>>> located through out the world. As said big powers come with
>>>> bigger Responsibilities just like that we need to address the
>>>> issue of Cambodian chapter by every possible means.It counts
>>>> for every member that stand for change and with such
>>>> situation ISOC can certainly help the chapter. Its not just
>>>> about the rules and principle but on practical ground if
>>>> there is a possibility from the ISOC headquarters then they
>>>> should help because it makes a difference.
>>>>
>>>> ISOC and its role model of economic independence can be
>>>> understood and the pros and cons of funding a chapter is the
>>>> part of the ISOC board or whom it may be concern but in
>>>> reality if there is a possibility for the Cambodian chapter
>>>> to help then ISOC should by all means.
>>>>
>>>> I think the communication in between the chapters +chapter
>>>> leaders+ISOC broad needs to be neutralized in every possible
>>>> way.
>>>>
>>>> Cheers to Life Shreedeep Rayamajhi 00977-9841374547(Nepal)
>>>> 00977-9851049683(Nepal) 00977-9813900099
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shreedeep_Rayamajhi_(activist)
>>>> +1(301)485-9395 <tel:%2B1%28301%29485-9395>(US)
>>>> <http://www.rayznews.com/>
>>>>
>>>> *DISCLAIMER:* This message is intended only for the
>>>> recipient. If you are not the intended recipient you are
>>>> notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any
>>>> action in reliance on the contents of this information is
>>>> strictly prohibited.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 9:28 AM, Eduard Tric
>>>> <eduard.tric at isoc.ro <mailto:eduard.tric at isoc.ro>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> A few years ago , i had the opportunity to participate in a
>>>> task force called "Isoc chapter of the future". One of the
>>>> conclusions was that there has to be a balance between what
>>>> HQ offer to the capters (direct financial support was barley
>>>> mentioned , among other forms of support ) and what chapters
>>>> should provide to HQ (some form of activity , or growth). If
>>>> direct financial support is not an option, the "why" part
>>>> should be explained in detail. In that case , indirect
>>>> support should be enhanced (raise community grants budget and
>>>> leadership training for chapter key persons ) Regards, Ed
>>>>
>>>> ----- Mesaj original ----- De la: "Grigori Saghyan"
>>>> <gregor at arminco.com <mailto:gregor at arminco.com>> Către:
>>>> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>> <mailto:chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org> Trimis: joi, 26
>>>> septembrie, 2013 3:07:04 Subiect: Re: [Chapter-delegates]
>>>> Recent Correspondence from the Cambodian Chapter
>>>>
>>>> Dear All, from the formal point "chapter" is a part of one
>>>> large structure. I think it is to have clearly defined
>>>> relations between "Chapters" (or local ISOC structures) and
>>>> whom? I use "ISOC Global" term, but may be "Management" or
>>>> "HQ or "Board" is better? For each of proposed terms there is
>>>> some uncertainty.
>>>>
>>>> After Cambodian declaration it looks, that there only one
>>>> real way to draw attention to Chapter problems.
>>>>
>>>> Btw, why it is such strong negative reaction for direct
>>>> financial support? And as we see, there is an expression "
>>>> The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers is
>>>> currently not among the solutions the Internet Society can
>>>> offer".
>>>>
>>>> Here we see the author: it is the "Internet Society". Not
>>>> the Board, not the staff, not the management, not ISOC
>>>> Global, but the "Internet Society" Logically, I can
>>>> understand, that as a Chapter, our Chapter was involved in
>>>> some kind of discussion on that point, there was a voting
>>>> procedure, and such decision was approved by majority? But
>>>> we do not participated in such procedure. On the the other
>>>> hand, if the Chapter is real "chapter" - a part of a large
>>>> structure the "Internet Society" - it is not necessary to
>>>> ask Chapter's opinion.
>>>>
>>>> Clear definition of terms is one of the strongest
>>>> requirements everywhere, I think it is one of the most
>>>> important points today for ISOC community (also undefined
>>>> term).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Grigori Saghyan ISOC.AM <http://ISOC.AM>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 26.09.2013 0:19, Elver Loho wrote:
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>> I haven't kept up with this email list, but from what I
>>>>> can gather the Cambodian Chapter wants to disassociate from
>>>>> ISOC due to lack of direct financial support for the basic
>>>>> running and operation of the Chapter.
>>>>
>>>>> I do not speak for my Chapter here, but personally I
>>>>> wholeheartedly support this gesture. If this happens, then
>>>>> maybe, just maybe, ISOC senior staff will start taking the
>>>>> issue of providing support for Chapters around the world
>>>>> seriously.
>>>>
>>>>> Right now Chapters seem to exist more as a way for ISOC HQ
>>>>> to show that they have support and members around the
>>>>> world. We're all providing a sort of legitimacy for the
>>>>> people at the HQ. Do we get something back for this? Sort
>>>>> of. I mean, maybe. To some degree. Though here in Estonia
>>>>> very few people have heard of the Internet Society while
>>>>> our own local language brand carries a lot of weight. Your
>>>>> situation may be different.
>>>>
>>>>> Meanwhile we're battling with basic organizational issues,
>>>>> because we can't even afford to keep up basic maintenance.
>>>>> At times we're even unable to reply to government's
>>>>> requests for comments on pending legislation, because we
>>>>> all have regular jobs or businesses to run. This has to
>>>>> end. If what it takes is for one or more Chapters to secede
>>>>> from the union, then so be it. If the Cambodian Chapter
>>>>> goes through with this, I'm willing to put the question of
>>>>> secession up for debate in our own Chapter.
>>>>
>>>>> I urge other Chapter leaders to consider the same.
>>>>
>>>>> Best, Elver .ee
>>>>
>>>>> elver.loho at gmail.com <mailto:elver.loho at gmail.com> +372
>>>>> 5661
>>>> 6933 <tel:%2B372%205661%206933> skype: elver.loho
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 25 September 2013 22:56, Dave Burstein
>>>>> <daveb at dslprime.com <mailto:daveb at dslprime.com>> wrote:
>>>>>> Cambodian colleagues
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm a board member in New York and respect your decision
>>>>>> but urge you to keep working to resolve this. The board
>>>>>> of ISOC is strongly committed to working with chapters
>>>>>> and directed staff to improve things. If that's broken
>>>>>> down here, as it seems, several board members are surely
>>>>>> willing to help. They are dedicated, committed people who
>>>>>> make a point fo responding to ISOC chapter members. I or
>>>>>> a dozen others on this list can connect you if that makes
>>>>>> things easier.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They are all strong and independent thinkers, most with a
>>>>>> no b______ attitude.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ted
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for addressing this; leaving it without response
>>>>>> would have been painful. This is a crisis for the
>>>>>> goverance model of ISOC that needs to be resolved at the
>>>>>> highest level. As you saw from this list, a dozen other
>>>>>> chapters think this crucial to solve.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But "The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers
>>>>>> is currently not among the solutions the Internet Society
>>>>>> can offer" doesn't seem to the point. Is there anything
>>>>>> in the ISOC charter that makes this impossible? If so,
>>>>>> please point to it and people can bring it to the board.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Can" is the word you used. I'm guessing this actually is
>>>>>> an administrative decision made by the senior staff, who
>>>>>> can, if they choose, simply reverse the decision. Staff
>>>>>> are constantly making financial decisions an order of
>>>>>> magnitude greater. If staff feel they can't do this
>>>>>> without board approval, that's easy to obtain if it's
>>>>>> important to ISOC. As many of us know, most of the board
>>>>>> members are very accessible and dedicated to solving ISOC
>>>>>> problems if necessary.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Should" ISOC provide the seed funding here, necessary to
>>>>>> get the chapter started on the path to independence is
>>>>>> the real question. I'm sure there's a lot more here than
>>>>>> the presumably modest sum to share some office space.
>>>>>> Likely, a shared or cheap office space that fits the
>>>>>> legal requirements can be obtained for less than the cost
>>>>>> of sending one more talking head to IGF Bali. Nothing
>>>>>> wrong with IGF, but a slightly smaller ISOC delegation
>>>>>> isn't a fatal wound.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know enough to decide whether ISOC should do more
>>>>>> here and I'm sure there are major issues that haven't
>>>>>> been discussed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So let's draw in Lynn, Walda or whomever else actually
>>>>>> has the power to make things happen and prevent a deep
>>>>>> organizational problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> db
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Sep 25, 2013 at 1:25 PM, Ted Mooney
>>>>>> <mooney at isoc.org <mailto:mooney at isoc.org>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To all Chapter Delegates
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ISOC Staff and, in particular, Membership and Services,
>>>>>>> are saddened by the recent decision and communication
>>>>>>> from the Cambodian Chapter regarding their desire to
>>>>>>> dissociate from the Internet Society for administrative
>>>>>>> and other support concerns. I believe, however, there
>>>>>>> has been an unfortunate miscommunication. The Chapter
>>>>>>> Development and APAC staff have reached out to the
>>>>>>> Cambodian Chapter on numerous occasions. As many of
>>>>>>> you know, our Chapter Development team has worked with
>>>>>>> other chapters to help address issues nearly identical
>>>>>>> to what the Cambodian Chapter is experiencing. Our
>>>>>>> offer of collaboration remains.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The issue of the lack of direct financial transfers is
>>>>>>> currently not among the solutions the Internet Society
>>>>>>> can offer. There are, nevertheless many other avenues
>>>>>>> to address the administrative support of the Chapter,
>>>>>>> which are both local and long term. Indeed Staff are
>>>>>>> working with Chapter volunteers and have convened a new
>>>>>>> Chapter Administrative Support Working Group to address
>>>>>>> this issue broadly. We hope the Cambodian Chapter will
>>>>>>> reassess their position and re-engage with ISOC staff
>>>>>>> as soon as possible. Our Chapter Development staff will
>>>>>>> reach out once again to the Cambodian Chapter
>>>>>>> officers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Ted Ted Mooney Senior Director, Membership & Services
>>>>>>> The Internet Society 1775 Wiehle Avenue Reston, VA
>>>>>>> 20190 USA Office: +1 703-439-2774
>>>>>>> <tel:%2B1%20703-439-2774> Cell: +1
>>>> 301-980-6446 <tel:%2B1%20301-980-6446> eMail:
>>>>>>> mooney at isoc.org <mailto:mooney at isoc.org>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly
>>>>>>> synchronized with the Internet Society Chapter Portal
>>>>>>> (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -- Editor, Fast Net News, Net Policy News and A Wireless
>>>>>> Cloud Author with Jennie Bourne DSL (Wiley, 2002) and
>>>>>> Web Video: Making It Great, Getting It Noticed (Peachpit,
>>>>>> 2008)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly synchronized
>>>>>> with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
>>>>>> https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly synchronized
>>>>> with the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
>>>>> https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly synchronized with
>>>> the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
>>>> https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly synchronized with
>>>> the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
>>>> https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly synchronized with
>>>> the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
>>>> https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -- *NOTICE:* This email may contain information which is
>>>> confidential and/or subject to legal privilege, and is
>>>> intended for the use of the named addressee only. If you are
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ As an
>>>> Internet Society Chapter Officer you are automatically
>>>> subscribed to this list, which is regularly synchronized with
>>>> the Internet Society Chapter Portal (AMS):
>>>> https://portal.isoc.org
>>>>
>
>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
>> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>>
>> --
>>
>> --
>>
>> Eduard Tric ,CEO, Axetel I encrypt therefore I am.
>> http://www.axetel.com eduard at axetel.com tel: +40740300740
>>
>>
>>
>> DD;; DDD;;; We know, DD :;; We compute,
>> fD tt We decode. DD fDf DDDDDD DDDD DD , DD DD
>> DDDDDD DDDDDD DDDDDD DD D DD DDD DDDDDD DDDDDD DDDDDD DD DDi
>> :DDDD DD DD DD DD DDD DDDD DDDDDD DD DDDDDD
>> DD DDDDi DDDD DDDDDD DD DDDDDD DD DD DD tDGDD DD
>> DD DD DD DDi DD DD fDD DDDDDD DD DDDDDD DDDDDD DD DD
>> DD DD DDDDDD DD DDDDDD DDDDDG DD DDDD DDDDDD GD: DD ;;
>> DD :;; GDf We know ;;;DDD all the codes, ,;DG including
>> yours.
>>
>> 6839f52116af1166f4a01e64ad209459f17ecc995c1456a68c7040072a9a58d6
>> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
>> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
>> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
>> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
> _______________________________________________ As an Internet
> Society Chapter Officer you are automatically subscribed to this
> list, which is regularly synchronized with the Internet Society
> Chapter Portal (AMS): https://portal.isoc.org
>
- --
Grigori Saghyan
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