[Chapter-delegates] [Sphere-labels] COMMENTS INVITED: DraftAffiliation Agreement between ISOC Global and ISOC {Chapter}

[Veni Markovski]

Dear Grigori,
that's a question, which is more or less towards ISOC.org, not towards me.
But, indeed, there is the case of .am, Armenia, where the local ISOC
(chapter) is also the ccTLD manager. Interesting, if you follow your way of
thinking, that ISOC - Armenia may end up in a pretty complicated
situation...

veni

On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Grigori Saghyan <gregor at arminco.com> wrote:

> Dear Veni,
> In case when local ISOC is responsible for its cc TLD management we have
> interesting situation:
> ccTLD  management was delegated  in 90-s by John Postel to local
> responsible communities, now this delegation  procedure is ICANN/IANA
> responsibility.
> On WSIS there was a declaration, that ccTLD management is responsibility of
> each  country. At the same time lot of local ISOCs are  ISOC.org chapters.
> In this situation local ISOC, who is ccTLD manager have to keep, let us
> say, a balance between ICANN/IANA, ISOC.org and local authorities
> requirements.
> Can we say, that ISOC.org in cooperation with ISOC chapters is the
> policymaker for ICANN/IANA? Or may be IACNN/IANA is the policymaker for
> ISOC.org and
> ISOC chapters? Or there is a healthy "core" inside ISOC.org, ICANN/IANA,
> ISOC chapters, which is able to resolve current problems?
> Looks  current situation is more or less acceptable, but tomorrow, when all
> telecom operators will start to use IP based solutions it will
> be very hard to keep independence.
> Grigori Saghyan
> ISOC.AM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 16.07.2010 16:27, Veni Markovski wrote:
>
>> Dear Rodel,
>> Perhaps the confusion is over the meaning of the word "oversight".
>> Depending on the dictionary, it means:
>> - Management by overseeing the performance or operation of a person or
>> group.
>> - Supervision; watchful care
>> - a watchful and responsible care;
>> - regulatory supervision
>>
>> This is why I say it can not exist in the relations chapters - ISOC.org. A
>> chapter cannot be managed by ISOC.org, or supervised by ISOC.org. The
>> chapters typically started their existence without ISOC, and became chapters
>> later, or in some cases - have not become chapters yet, or may not become
>> chapters. This doesn't mean they can not name themselves ISOC. See for
>> example Internet Society of China - it exists for many years, without being
>> a chapter. ISOC Bulgaria existed for two years, before it became a chapter.
>>
>> We have to think not about today, but about the future relations between
>> ISOC and the chapters; we have to think about the time, when there will be
>> chapters in every country, and this loose relations with ISOC.org must
>> stimulate the existence of the chapters, not undermine them with legal
>> issues.
>>
>> best,
>> veni
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 7/15/2010 23:38, Rodel Urani wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Veni, Sivasubramanian and All,
>>> The Philippines Chapter's case.
>>> Kindest regards,
>>> -Rodel
>>> *From:* Sivasubramanian M <mailto:isolatedn at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, July 16, 2010 5:38 AM
>>> *To:* Veni Markovski <mailto:veni at veni.com>
>>> *Cc:* sphere-labels at elists.isoc.org <mailto:
>>> sphere-labels at elists.isoc.org> ; Chapter Delegates <mailto:
>>> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [Chapter-delegates] [Sphere-labels] COMMENTS INVITED:
>>> DraftAffiliation Agreement between ISOC Global and ISOC {Chapter}
>>>
>>> Dear Veni,
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jul 16, 2010 at 2:44 AM, Veni Markovski <veni at veni.com <mailto:
>>> veni at veni.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    Dear Shiva, and everyone,
>>>    I don't know who came with the word "oversight", but this is
>>>    something that cannot exist, according to the laws in the European
>>>    Union (at least). The chapters are legally independent bodies,
>>>    founded and performing under the laws of the country they are
>>>    situated in. One of the items that has bothered me a lot with
>>>    regards to some applications, was that there were requests from
>>>    ISOC.org to have the statute of the chapters "reflect" what
>>>    ISOC.org believed should be there. In many (all?) cases that's
>>>    impossible. I would have understand it, if the chapters were
>>>    created by ISOC.org, funded by ISOC, and therefor ISOC could have
>>>    a say in what they do - the same way ISOC.org decides what the PIR
>>>    does, and how it spends its money (to fund ISOC).
>>>    In the case of the chapters, this is all different.
>>>
>>> That depends on how they would use "oversight". We have volunteered, that
>>> is all that matters. We did not ask for support especially money from
>>> ISOC.org, we were after the support of our local colleagues and founding
>>> members. There was requirements we have to fulfill. ISOC.org did not tell or
>>> dictate us what to do, including maybe our future activities, however we see
>>> and understood what are we heading into. It is also unfair to say, since
>>> Chapter are solely a legal entity in their own countries, that we can do
>>> anything including what is not aligned to the policies in place by ISOC.org
>>> in support for the Chapters.
>>> What I understand and like it is that there is flexibility as to how
>>> ISOC.org and Chapters do their own job, whether in support of the other,
>>> their own interests and vice versa.
>>>
>>>    *ISOC.org is not the chapters' hat, or their umbrella; quite the
>>>    opposite - the chapters are the umbrella of ISOC *for they bring
>>>    ISOC its legitimacy, and not the other way around.
>>>
>>>
>>> >+1.  Well emphasized. Thanks Veni.
>>> Neither ISOC.org is the Chapter's hat nor Chapters are the umbrella of
>>> ISOC.org are written in our by-laws (at least in the Philippines). I do not
>>> think it is worth debating particularly this issue. When we applied and
>>> become accredited Chapter of ISOC.org we agreed on some parameters and that
>>> is still very clearly stated in our by-laws, again in our own case. Like for
>>> instance in the Philippines, the article I states that ISOC Philippines
>>> hereafter referred to as the "Chapter" of the Internet Society hereafter
>>> referred to as the "Association". Unless yours are different.
>>>
>>>    I don't believe that anyone seriously, or even jokingly, would
>>>    suggest that the chapters should be less independent. However,
>>>    having said that, *if people feel this is the case, please,
>>>    address it immediately in *straight words right now, on these
>>>    lists, and make sure your voice is being heard.
>>>
>>> This is not the case.
>>>
>>>
>>>  _______________________________________________
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