[Chapter-delegates] Article in The New York Times
Fred Baker
fred at cisco.com
Sun Mar 16 03:56:52 PDT 2008
There are several issues. One is that Indian telecom regulations have
in the past made internet connectivity expensive, so that people
would take geosynchronous satellite links via Australia or sub-
oceanic links via the US in preference to direct connectivity within
India to reduce cost. As I understand it, that is changing - you are
a better reference than I on that - but the kinds of routes you call
out are in part due to cost. Corporate interconnects also play here -
if one AS hop will get you there one way and another route uses three
AS hops, the fact that the one AS hop is via the US west coast and
the other route is a straight line has no impact on Internet routing.
It takes the "shorter" (less AS hops) route.
But this can be fixed in several ways. More enlightened regulation is
obviously part. Also, building a market that calls for low delay will
take the high delay paths out of the picture. People will buy what
they like if it is available and affordable.
I would argue that the considerations in the Nemertes report could
apply to India as well as the US, which is specifically the realm of
Johna's analysis. But it is not limited to investment and business
development; it has to be the removal of regulatory strangleholds as
well.
BTW, yes, I was quoted in the NYT article. But the important article
is the Nemertes report it is based on. For the price of a free
registration, you can get it at http://www.nemertes.com/
internet_singularity_delayed_why_limits_internet_capacity_will_stifle_in
novation_web.
You might also find ISOC Board Member Bill St. Arnoud's January 7
blog on the topic interesting. http://billstarnaud.blogspot.com/
2008/01/massive-new-investment-required-for.html
On Mar 16, 2008, at 4:06 AM, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote:
> Dear Mike Todd,
>
> It is very true that some or most or all of the internet operators
> think of various ways of increasing their profits and it is
> probable that they might seek to "control" the overload for
> profitability considerations.
>
> But what I have talked about in my mail is about unnecessary router
> hops (that happens when the route of data transfer from point A to
> point B is circutious. If it makes sense, compare the flight path
> from Delhi to San Francisco (assuming a direct, truly non-stop, not
> even a fueling stop flight. It is near-linear. But what happens
> when it comes to data transfer? Is the distance minimal ?
>
> Infact, often data transfers between point A in Delhi to point B in
> Delhi might get routed via San Francisco (just for argument's
> sake). While it may be necessary in some situations, it happens
> unnecessarily in several other situations.
>
> One practical example is when someone in point A in Delhi talks to
> a computer in point B in Delhi via a proxy thousands of miles away.
> Another example is when an employee of a company in a certain
> building in Delhi talks to a computer in the next cubicle through a
> connection to a computer thousands of miles away. ( Again, in some
> situations it may be totally necessary, but in several situations
> it may be unwarranted )
>
> The points that I have raised are not exhaustive My examples are
> incomplete. What I am trying to convey is that there needs to be
> scientific study of the traffic pattens, data transfer trends,
> about the necessary and unnecessary use of the bandwidth, about
> what the earth can bear in terms of internet traffic and what it
> can not. ( Bandwidth prices are coming down, technology is
> exploding to make it possible for billions of users to have 10 or
> more MBPS of bandwidth for every user at an affordable cost, but
> what proportion is purposeful and what proportion is wasteful ?
> When electricity was invented no one thought about the
> environmental impact of every home in future using kilowatts of
> electricity per hour. Excessive Internet bandwidth usage, some day
> might mean some form of unknown environmental impact as well. Take
> the case of submarines communicating by sonar signals, suddenly the
> world discovered that sonar signals are fatal to blue whales. The
> harm was unknown until sometime ago... )
>
> The concern about environmental impact might be a bit fetched, but
> it could be one of the aspects that a comprehensive study might
> take it as one of the terms of reference.
>
> What is referred to in my message as "control" is not to be taken
> in an authoritarian sense. There is no authoritarianism hinted at
> here. Rather the term is used akin to "conserve"...
>
> There needs to some balance. There are ways by which balance could
> be brought about. There could be creative ways. What if all video
> and audio is moved to the TV screen by cable ? ( I am not sure if
> it would make any difference, but a seperation of gaming/movies/
> music from the "traditional" internet content is technically
> feasible considering today's trends of online Video portals tying
> up with Television/cable content providers. If online music and
> video and games move to the realm of interactive TV screens ???
>
> Again it is not exhausive. There may be a list of such measures,
> some desirable, that could be technically feasible and acceptable
> that may emerge out of such a comprehensive study of the internet.
> Even if the above idea of separation of video content is dismissed
> as undesirable, some other solutions to ratonalize or streamline
> (please don't attach importance to these terms, nothing negative is
> implied in the use of these terms) the internet.
>
>
> Sivasubramanian M.
>
> On Sat, Mar 15, 2008 at 8:41 PM, Mike Todd <miketodd at miketodd.com>
> wrote:
>> Things would be quite different if we were talking about the 100
>> mbps, and higher, speed available in countries above us in the
>> list of developed countries showing their speeds and costs for users.
>>
>> My initial reaction to the article was that the only people to
>> benefit from trying to "control" the "overload" are those who want
>> to find ways of increasing their profits without having to do
>> anything to improve the networks...
>>
>> Mike Todd
>> President, Mike Todd Associates - www.MikeTodd.com
>> Supporting the Digital Coast
>>
>> President, Internet Society Los Angeles Chapter - www.ISOC-LA.org
>> mtodd at isoc-la.org
>>
>> Founder, Digital Divide Task Force, www.ddtf.org (currently under
>> significant updates)
>> miketodd at ddtf.org
>>
>> Western Research Application Center, Viterbi School of Engineering,
>> University of Southern California
>>
>> Center for Entrepreneurship and Technology Law
>> Pepperdine University School of Law
>>
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Sivasubramanian Muthusamy" <isolatedn at gmail.com>
>> To: "Alejandro Pisanty" <apisan at servidor.unam.mx>
>> Cc: "Chapter Delegates" <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, March 15, 2008 7:41 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Article in The New York Times
>>
>>
>>> Dear Sabrina,
>>>
>>> The article in New York times needs to be examined seriously. The
>>> traffic overload, if it may be called so, is one of the aspects
>>> that need to be observed and measures identified.
>>>
>>> 1. It is wonderful to find the content on the net getting richer
>>> and richer; it feels good to experience increasing bandwidths as
>>> it has progressed from 14.4 KBPS to 56 to the present trend of 11
>>> MBPS or comcast's 16 MBPS, but are we making scientific
>>> estimations of average available bandwidth per user for at least
>>> the next 10 years (preferably for a longer duration), average
>>> bandwidth usage per user, traffic distribution and all other
>>> factors that determine the overload ?
>>>
>>> 2. It is good to download movies, good to upload videos, but
>>> while we enjoy the ease of the internet, are we examining
>>> unnecessary, redundant traffic ?
>>>
>>> There are several other aspects that needs to be comprehensively
>>> examined. (For example the IPV4 runout problem.)
>>>
>>> The internet requires an overall blueprint for its growth.
>>> Otherwise we may have some unforeseen problems.
>>>
>>> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
>>> ISOC India Chennai.
>>> http://www.isocindiachennai.in ( in process )
>>>
>>>
>>> On 3/14/08, Alejandro Pisanty <apisan at servidor.unam.mx> wrote:
>>>> Dear Sabrina, all,
>>>>
>>>> in discussion last evening during the IETF Plenary, this article
>>>> was mentioned. The discussion was following the presentations
>>>> about video and TV over the Internet by two invited speakers.
>>>> Probably the memory-sticking points are:
>>>>
>>>> 1. video and TV are taking up about 50% of Internet traffic
>>>> already, and this fraction is growing. The rates of growth are
>>>> discussed but somewhere around 50-55% per year.
>>>>
>>>> 2. different ways to provide this video are being explored and
>>>> none is find satisfactory by all experts (peer-to-peer and
>>>> multicasting are among the examples.)
>>>>
>>>> 3. in the US there is a lack of sufficient investment in
>>>> broadband; "lack" or "insufficiency" are defined with respect to
>>>> expectations for traffic and services that will be required, and
>>>> in comparison too a few (Northern) economies in Europe and Asia.
>>>>
>>>> 4. lesson/message to chapters outside the North: let's look at
>>>> our countries' infrastructures and make sure we press for a
>>>> sufficient build of bandwidth at accessible prices and all the
>>>> way to the users. This was not said.
>>>>
>>>> Yours,
>>>>
>>>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> . . .
>>>> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>>>> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>>>>
>>>> *Mi blog/My blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>>>> *LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>>>> *Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>>>>
>>>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org
>>>> Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> . . . .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, 13 Mar 2008, Sabrina Wilmot wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2008 21:01:04 +0000
>>>>> From: Sabrina Wilmot <wilmot at isoc.org>
>>>>> To: Chapter Delegates <chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org>
>>>>> Subject: [Chapter-delegates] Article in The New York Times
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Colleagues
>>>>>
>>>>> There is an article in today's "New York Times" with a quote
>>>>> from Fred Baker (board member of the Internet Society):
>>>>>
>>>>> "Video Road Hogs Stir Fear of Internet Traffic Jam" By STEVE
>>>>> LOHR Caution: Heavy Internet traffic ahead. Delays possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/13/technology/13net.html
>>>>>
>>>>> Enjoy!
>>>>>
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>> Sabrina Wilmot
>>>>> ISOC
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Chapter-delegates mailing list
>>>>> Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> http://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
>>> CEO
>>> Isolated Networks
>>> Whitefield, 389/1 Perundurai Road
>>> Erode 638 011
>>> Tamilnadu India
>>> http://www.isolatednetworks.com
>>> email: isolatedn at gmail.com
>>> ++91 424 4030334
>>> Mobile Phone number +91 99524 03099
>>> ++91 424 4030334
>>>
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>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
> CEO
> Isolated Networks
> Whitefield, 389/1 Perundurai Road
> Erode 638 011
> Tamilnadu India
> http://www.isolatednetworks.com
> email: isolatedn at gmail.com
> ++91 424 4030334
> Mobile Phone number +91 99524 03099
> ++91 424 4030334
>
> DISCLAIMER:
>
> This message (including attachment if any) from Isolated Networks is
> confidential and may be privileged. If you have received this message
> by mistake please notify the sender by return e-mail and delete this
> message from your system. Any unauthorized use, disclosure or
> dissemination of this message in whole or in part is strictly
> prohibited.
>
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