[Chapter-delegates] Language Independent Domains or Phonetic names.
Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
isolatedn at gmail.com
Tue Jul 1 11:41:05 PDT 2008
Marcin,
In the process of replying you have erased the original message that I
posted by mistake, so I am copying your message and my reply to my
original message in the thread and am resending to the list
Sivasubramanian M.
On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 12:08 AM, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
<isolatedn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Marcin,
>
> Domain names in local languages is an issue that needs to be
> delicately handled. As you have pointed out India is a country with 22
> languages to be given importance. India is very much an unified
> nation, but language is politicized. We have seen language movements
> in different geographic zones where politicians championed for their
> language - BY RESITING AND SHUTTING DOWN OTHER LANGUAGES. For example,
> you might find public city buses in a cosmopolitan city such as
> Bangalore or Chennai featuring route name plates ONLY in local
> languages. The street names and shop name boards are at times
> regulated or compelled to be ONLY in local languages. How would you
> take public transportation in Bangalore if you were to arrive from
> Poland or Calcutta ? You suddenly become illiterate and lost. More
> often than not government officials, even a police officer would
> resist another national or foreign language even if they are
> conversant with the language.
>
> France can have its URLs in French, Italy in Italian, Poland in
> Polish, some states of India in Hindi, other states in one of their 21
> other languages. But this needs to be done in such a way that it does
> not shut out websites in France for the English speaking people or the
> websites in Italy for the Hindi speaking people.
>
> Sivasubramanian M.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:58 PM, Marcin Cieslak <saper at saper.info> wrote:
>> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote:
>>>
>>> Whether or not this proposal makes technical sense, we may begin
>>> working on an RFC on the method of allocation of language domain names
>>> in such a manner that the local language domain names are universally
>>> readable and writeable or make the domain names language independent
>>> at one level.
>>>
>>> Again, this is a core problem to be addressed by the Internet
>>> Community if the universality of the Internet is to be preseved.
>>
>> In Paris, the board of ICANN has approved IDNC Working Group final report
>> for public comments:
>>
>> http://www.icann.com/minutes/resolutions-26jun08.htm#_Toc76113172
>>
>> The report describes a so-called "Fast Track" process for internationalized
>> country top-level names (like .de or .in). It is understood that the whole
>> issue is very complex therefore a "quick & easy" fast track process has been
>> defined to address most simple cases.
>>
>> http://ccnso.icann.org/workinggroups/idnc-wg-board-proposal-25jun08.pdf
>>
>> During the ccTLD workshop in Paris, India "with its 22 languages" was often
>> set as an example. The document is now open for discussion and I think it
>> would be good if ISOC could come up with a broad background material from
>> different regions and possibly a joint opinion on the issue.
>>
>> --
>> << Marcin Cieslak // saper at saper.info >>
On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 8:42 PM, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
<isolatedn at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello Alejandro,
>
> I have renamed the subject on this thread initiated by dpefeva at isoc.bg
> originally opened with the subject head "Bulgaria moves to register
> Cyrillic Internet domain" as I realize that it is a core problem that
> needs to be addressed if the universality of the internet is to be
> preserved.
>
> The alternative suggestion is that Coca-Cola gets coca-cola.com as
> well as gets the allocation of the same name pronounced in a standard
> accent and represented in the International Phonetic Alpahabet. ( or
> represented in some form of phonetic orthography) This phonetic name,
> not Coca-cola.com is the base domain name for Coca-Cola corporation.
> The global domain name system would allocate the phonetic base name to
> the applicant globally. It is reserved for the length of the validity
> of the fee paid.
>
> ( By this system, there may not even be a need for an extension like
> .com or .org, but I am not certain )
>
> If the applicant is English speaking, as in this case, there would not
> be difficulties with the English name - the base phonetic name is
> primarily derived from the English name Coca-Cola, so the applicant
> gets Coca-Cola name along with the phonetic base name. This base name
> is auto-fed into a phonetic transcription server at the same time as
> the base name is allotted and the server generates names in all
> official international languages and pulls up the scripts for each
> language All the names are allotted to the applicant as a table. It is
> upto the applicant to manually inspect the character representations
> of the most important languages in terms of desired reach. Coca-Cola
> might choose to consult its branch offices around the world to check,
> for instance if the representation in Hindi script allocated as koke
> kola ( assume that this is Hindi script ) is accurate or distorted.
> The local office or the Hindi lanugauge expert might point out that
> the name is more accurately represented in Hindi as koko kola and
> within a time period of 30 days the applicant might move to correct
> the Hindi representation in the table allocated The phonetic base name
> is copied to the sub-registry for each language on allocation as also
> the initial language script for each relevant language. Corrections
> made, if any, get updated in the relevant sub-registries for language.
> In this scenario, the name allocated is the phonetic orthograph and
> the sub-registry level or machine level abstractions are the language
> names. It is not known if an intermediary digital representation is
> required as another layer of abstraction.
>
> It amounts to redoing the domain name allocation system and involves a
> lot of steps that might be argued as unnecessary. It could even be
> argued that the suggestion is to reinvent the wheel.
>
> But in the light of the concerns expressed by Nitin Desai, Chair of
> the Internet Governance Forum of the dangers of "separation" in the
> BBC arrticle posted in the thread
> http://elists.isoc.org/pipermail/chapter-delegates/2008-June/004033.html
> it becomes necessary to resolve the issue of the need for local
> domains leading the Internet into a situation of separated language
> based Internet zones. This is not a technical danger, but a political
> danger.
>
> Whether or not this proposal makes technical sense, we may begin
> working on an RFC on the method of allocation of language domain names
> in such a manner that the local language domain names are universally
> readable and writeable or make the domain names language independent
> at one level.
>
> Again, this is a core problem to be addressed by the Internet
> Community if the universality of the Internet is to be preseved.
>
> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
>
> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 11:29 PM, Alejandro Pisanty
> <apisan at servidor.unam.mx> wrote:
>> S.,
>>
>> going carefully through Marcin's suggestion, i.e. to read how the system
>> actually works, may be useful. What the system does at present is to map
>> non-ascii names into an - as much as possible - unambiguous ascii string. It
>> is a fairly complex system and will probably show that your intuition is
>> right, and to do more would essentially repeat a huuuuuge pile of work
>> already done.
>>
>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>
>>
>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>>
>> *Mi blog/My blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>> *LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>> *Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>>
>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org
>> Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org
>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>
>>
>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote:
>>
>>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:18:39 +0530
>>> From: Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <isolatedn at gmail.com>
>>> To: Alejandro Pisanty <apisan at servidor.unam.mx>
>>> Cc: Gene Gaines <gene.gaines at gainesgroup.com>,
>>> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Bulgaria moves to register Cyrillic
>>> Internet
>>> domain
>>>
>>> Hello Alejandro
>>>
>>> Yes, the present system of alphabetic names is created so that people
>>> don't have to remember digits.
>>>
>>> In my suggestion of a digitized name as a "machine level" layer of
>>> indirection, the suggestion is not exactly that the internet user has
>>> to remember the digitized name.
>>>
>>> English- Coca-cola.com. ON ALLOCATION of the name coca-cola.com, at
>>> the same instant becomes owner of the digitzed name ( this could also
>>> be alpha numeric, not necessarily just digits - such as
>>> USAEnglishCommerce32594892 or as 2bbfcdf3f09ae8d700402f36913515cd
>>>
>>> If there are a thousand languages, ICANN simultaneously reserves the
>>> the local strings auto-generated by a machine level reverse-look up.
>>>
>>> By this theory2bbfcdf3f09ae8d700402f36913515cd should auto-generate a
>>> <cyrillic> string, a <Hindi> string, a <spanish> string and 997 other
>>> strings.
>>>
>>> The technical feasibility of this needs to be explored.
>>>
>>> 1. Coca-cola is a 9 letter string. Would a reverse-look up of
>>> 2bbfcdf3f09ae8d700402f36913515cd generate a 9 lettered spanish name or
>>> is there a possibility that it becomes a 19 lettered word in the
>>> process ?
>>>
>>> 2. The name so generated would be easy to type, but is likely to be a
>>> a string of meaningless characters. This would again be hard to
>>> remember.
>>>
>>> 3. So, yet another layer of local indirection may be needed similar to
>>> a RealNames service in each country that the Coca Cola corporation
>>> would go to to obtain the local language string that rhymes with
>>> Coca-cola which the user will remember and type that gets looked up as
>>> the earlier local string of meaningless characters which gets looked
>>> up as the digitized name in the central DNS system which gets looked
>>> up as coca-cola.com
>>>
>>> Very round about. I am typing as I think and really do not see how it
>>> is an improvement over Coca Cola corporation having to go to the local
>>> registry to obtain the best available .bg name
>>>
>>> Without Step 3, the typing problem is somewhat solved, but not the
>>> problem related to the recallability of the name. But Step 3 seems to
>>> bring us back to Square 1.
>>>
>>> If what I have written is 40% sense and 60% nonsense, please do reason
>>> this out and see if more sense can be made out of this
>>>
>>> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 10:27 PM, Alejandro Pisanty
>>> <apisan at servidor.unam.mx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sivasubramanian,
>>>>
>>>> let me see if I understand well:
>>>>
>>>> the present layers are:
>>>>
>>>> domain name read as alphabetic characters by the user
>>>> domain name represented in bits and bytes
>>>> IP address.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The DNS was created so that people would not have to remember the numbers
>>>> in
>>>> the IP address.
>>>>
>>>> Now you would add a numbered list of TLDs so that is an additional layer
>>>> of
>>>> indirection (of course creating a new layer of indirection, a new
>>>> abstraction, is common practice in computing.)
>>>>
>>>> But... let's see, thehr will in the long run be at least a couple hundred
>>>> numbers of TLDs - you'd have that even if we only did ccTLDs in ASCII, as
>>>> presently, plus their representations in the characters of one native
>>>> language that uses non-ASCII characters. So, in chronological order,
>>>> maybe
>>>> <bg-in-Cyrillic> would be number 1, and later on maybe India in TAmil
>>>> would
>>>> be no. 431 (just an example!).
>>>>
>>>> Who would be able to remember this list? Someone would come up with the
>>>> hame
>>>> in-tam for India in Tamil, and we now would have added two layers of
>>>> indirection that would requiere intensive maintenance.
>>>>
>>>> Do we want to go there, or is there an alternative, or did I not
>>>> understand
>>>> you well?
>>>>
>>>> Yours,
>>>>
>>>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> .
>>>> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>>>> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>>>>
>>>> *Mi blog/My blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>>>> *LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>>>> *Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>>>>
>>>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org
>>>> Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org
>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Sivasubramanian Muthusamy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 22:05:32 +0530
>>>>> From: Sivasubramanian Muthusamy <isolatedn at gmail.com>
>>>>> To: Alejandro Pisanty <apisan at servidor.unam.mx>
>>>>> Cc: Gene Gaines <gene.gaines at gainesgroup.com>,
>>>>> chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Bulgaria moves to register Cyrillic
>>>>> Internet
>>>>> domain
>>>>>
>>>>> Hello Alejandro Pisantry,
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a very valid question. Localization is important, but in the
>>>>> process of localization if the localized zone becomes inaccessible
>>>>> internationally the effect would be contrary to that intended.
>>>>>
>>>>> May be the technical community should think of a domain name
>>>>> architecture whereby there is a digitized domain name system - the
>>>>> digitized 'name' is functional at the DNS level. It is the
>>>>> digitization of a local name visible to the locals as the local
>>>>> language name, but gets converted into any other language for the
>>>>> convenience of those from the rest of the world
>>>>>
>>>>> <cyrillc-bg> name - the user in Bulgaria enters a cyrillic name
>>>>> The DNS system gets the same name translated into digits
>>>>> The international user knows the digital name
>>>>> There is a global web interface akin to tinyurl.com that converts the
>>>>> digital 'name' into any local language, for instance, Spanish
>>>>> The user in spain types the Spanish characters in the address bar of
>>>>> his browser. <spanish-bg> name
>>>>> The DNS system re translates it to the digital name which is looked up
>>>>> as the <cyrillc-bg> name website.
>>>>>
>>>>> A possible solution I wish to know if this is technically sound.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sivasubramanian Muthusamy
>>>>> ISOC India Chennai
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 7:27 PM, Alejandro Pisanty
>>>>> <apisan at servidor.unam.mx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gene,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I certainly join you in congratulating Dessi and the team in Bulgaria.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that here in the chapters we have a very sepcial opportunity,
>>>>>> as
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> community, to test the whole concept that has been advanced now.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In particular I am curious to see what happens the first time that a
>>>>>> site
>>>>>> goes up with a <cyrillc-bg> name and one of us wants to access it
>>>>>> without
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> Cyrillic keyboard in an Internet cafe somewhere. And "access" may well
>>>>>> mean
>>>>>> sending email, as much as it might mean opening a Web site.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ours is a community that can especially help each other to make
>>>>>> progress
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> such tests and be of assistance to Dessi an all others with her.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yours,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Alejandro Pisanty
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> Dr. Alejandro Pisanty
>>>>>> UNAM, Av. Universidad 3000, 04510 Mexico DF Mexico
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *Mi blog/My blog: http://pisanty.blogspot.com
>>>>>> *LinkedIn profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/pisanty
>>>>>> *Unete al grupo UNAM en LinkedIn,
>>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/e/gis/22285/4A106C0C8614
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---->> Unete a ISOC Mexico, www.isoc.org
>>>>>> Participa en ICANN, www.icann.org
>>>>>> . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>> .
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 24 Jun 2008, Gene Gaines wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:30:25 -0400
>>>>>>> From: Gene Gaines <gene.gaines at gainesgroup.com>
>>>>>>> To: Dessi Pefeva <dpefeva at isoc.bg>
>>>>>>> Cc: chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Chapter-delegates] Bulgaria moves to register Cyrillic
>>>>>>> Intern
>>>>>>> domain
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am very pleased to see SAITC (Bulgarian State Agency for Information
>>>>>>> Technologies and Communicatoins), with important support from the
>>>>>>> Bulgarian
>>>>>>> ISOC chapter, <http://www.daits.government.bg/>take the step of
>>>>>>> requesting
>>>>>>> registration of a Cyrillic TLD from ICANN. (below)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If "The Internet is for Everyone" then we must provide the means for
>>>>>>> everyone to communicate using their language and their character set.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Congratulation ISOC.bg
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gene Gaines
>>>>>>> VP, DCISOC (Washington DC Area Chapter of ISOC)
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>> *On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 7:27 AM, Dessi Pefeva <dpefeva at isoc.bg>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am happy to announce that the Bulgarian government has shown
>>>>>>>> officially
>>>>>>>> its intent to register the .бг (.bg in Cyrillic) domain. They did it
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>> letter, sent yesterday to ICANN's President Paul Twomey.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This is due also thanks to the efforts of ISOC-Bulgaria. Bulgarian
>>>>>>>> President, Prime Minister, Foreign Minister, and the Minister of ITC
>>>>>>>> are
>>>>>>>> all
>>>>>>>> members of ISOC. They have talked on a number of times in the past
>>>>>>>> six
>>>>>>>> months with ISOC.bg on these issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Obviously the conversations have been fruitful. See more information
>>>>>>>> here:
>>>>>>>> http://uk.reuters.com/article/internetNews/idUKL2360195920080623
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And this is the official press-release from the ITC Agency:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bulgaria has requested the registration of a Cyrillic top level
>>>>>>>> domain
>>>>>>>> (TLD) from *ICANN* <http://www.icann.org/>. The letter from the
>>>>>>>> chairman
>>>>>>>> of the Bulgarian State Agency for Information Technologies and
>>>>>>>> Communicatoins (*SAITC* <http://www.daits.government.bg/>) Plamen
>>>>>>>> Vatchkov
>>>>>>>> to the president of ICANN Paul Twomey was delivered today, June 23rd,
>>>>>>>> 2008, in Paris via the Bulgarian representative to the Governmental
>>>>>>>> Advisory
>>>>>>>> Committee of ICANN, and was distributed for information only in
>>>>>>>> Geneva
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> the ITU is headquartered. Thus Bulgaria requested the fast track for
>>>>>>>> implementation of its own Cyrillic IDNs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In the letter to the ICANN President, the SAITC chairman informs the
>>>>>>>> authoritative international organization, dealing with assigned names
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> numbers, that Bulgaria has decided to register and maintain the
>>>>>>>> country
>>>>>>>> code
>>>>>>>> .бг (bg in Cyrillic)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Further in the letter, SAITC chairman informs that the discussion on
>>>>>>>> using
>>>>>>>> Cyrillic domain names was initiated by the President of Bulgaria
>>>>>>>> Georgi
>>>>>>>> Parvanov during the visit of the Russian President Putin and the then
>>>>>>>> vice-prime minister, and now President of Russia Dmitry Medvedev
>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>> their visit in January 2008 in Sofia. The question was also discussed
>>>>>>>> during
>>>>>>>> meetings of Bulgarian Prime Minister Sergei Stanishev with the
>>>>>>>> Russian
>>>>>>>> counterparts, as well as during talks between foreign ministers
>>>>>>>> Ivailo
>>>>>>>> Kalfin and Sergei Lavrov. Last week, Russian President Medvedev
>>>>>>>> announced
>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>> Moscow, that the issue of Cyrillic domain names is an important one,
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> on
>>>>>>>> his political agenda.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> „We believe that the initiative, which we discussed with our Russian
>>>>>>>> friends in the last months, is a clear fact about the importance
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> Bulgaria has in the world Internet. It is an example not only about
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> historical meaning of the Cyrillic alphabet in the world arena, but
>>>>>>>> also
>>>>>>>> about the fact that through Bulgaria it became an official alphabet
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> European Union. By sending this letter to Dr. Twomey – ICANN's
>>>>>>>> president
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> my friend, SAITC expresses not only the wish, but the readiness to
>>>>>>>> put
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Cyrillic IDNs on the Internet map", says Plamen Vatchkov. „There's
>>>>>>>> nothing
>>>>>>>> more natural than the proposed domain to be the country code, which
>>>>>>>> is
>>>>>>>> already known and accepted in the country itself. Creating domains in
>>>>>>>> scripts, different from the Latin, is the next big step in the
>>>>>>>> development
>>>>>>>> of the Internet, which will allow millions of people who don't use
>>>>>>>> English
>>>>>>>> to have easier access to the Global Net resources".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> SAITC is organizing a meeting later this year in Sofia, where all
>>>>>>>> countries, using Cyrillic will be invited - Belarus, Bulgaria,
>>>>>>>> Kazakhstan,
>>>>>>>> Kyrgyzstan, Macedonia, Mongolia, Russia, Serbia, Tajikistan,
>>>>>>>> Uzbekistan
>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>> Ukraine. The meeting will be dedicated to discussion about IDNs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> for more information:
>>>>>>>> Press Center
>>>>>>>> phone +359-2-9492368
>>>>>>>> "Ekaterina Popova" <epopova at daits.government.bg>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> *Ms. Dessi Pefeva,
>>>>>>>> Internet Society - Bulgaria*
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> Chapter-delegates mailing list
>>>>>>>> Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>>>> http://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Chapter-delegates mailing list
>>>>>> Chapter-delegates at elists.isoc.org
>>>>>> http://elists.isoc.org/mailman/listinfo/chapter-delegates
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy
>>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy
>
--
http://www.linkedin.com/in/sivasubramanianmuthusamy
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