[chapter-delegates] Results of the board discussion on membership (redux)

[Carlos Vera Q]

Dear James here some answers to you:

"This is a difficult to achieve, even if we did not have individual members. 
Consider that individual members are permitted to join more than one 
Chapter.  In fact, there is no limit to the number of Chapters a member can 
join.  Thus, a member could, in principle, vote in many
Chapters."

Humans are in Jupiter.. and Mars... ISOC can implement a PKI infrastructure 
in a matter of days. People to vote have to register. 2000 years of 
democracy around the world provides enough experience for an small group of 
people. You see difficult I see simple.

"We could choose to ignore this issue, but then I would be curious how that 
is different than letting paying members vote as well as Chapter members?"

Everyone can vote. BUT you can not buy votes. No paying 75 has a vote, 150 2 
votes, and so. One member, one ID, one vote.

Paid members can form special interest groups and they do not have to be 
INSIDE ISOC. In fact large corporations already have lot of organizations. 
WHY we want them inside ISOC?

"Yes, voting is a benefit of membership, a benefit extended to all members 
(individuals, Chapters, and Organizations)..."

Wrong approach in my opinion..voting is not a benefit for those who can 
afford it. Voting is a right.

"I am not sure how to respond to this suggestion.  Chapters are the only 
group that do not contribute money directly to ISOC.  Are you suggesting 
that no other group of ISOC members should contribute money to ISOC?"

WE as chapters support ISOC. Not only money means support. We need money and 
we can ensure it's used for what it must be used.

Where the money come from? Now from PIR. If PIR is not a sure source, ( I 
strongly disagree with this thinking because people is doing lot of money 
with creative business models around domain names so I really believe ISOC 
can do also..) let's think another source for incomes. Technical consulting, 
standards development, and lot of more options. Money for ISOC should not be 
that kind of problem that we have to sell votes... If this is your thinking, 
it's $-democracy. We think e-democracy.

"The total money budgeted to be collected this year is just over $50,000 
USD.  That barely justifies a line item in the ISOC budget."

666 members already paying $ 75. !!! Good number so you already have 666 
votes there. They can exercise the right to vote the same way we (non paying 
members) do.

In the real world (REAL ONE) organizations like United Nations have 
demonstrated that paid membership is a way to discriminate and push decision 
based on money or support. If paid members decide not to pay, ISOC die? We 
can not rely on this very weak model. Icann that you mention is a clear 
example of this, when Oracle, Microsoft and others decide not more money for 
Icann they were in a hurry. Is that what we want for ISOC? Companies are to 
make money. I own companies that makes money. ISOC is about making Internet 
for everyone. We are technical guys, social responsible oriented guys, 
Information Society guys. If there are people that wants their own paid 
group, they do not have to be inside ISOC for us to live or even survive. 
Just make $-ISOC and make your business there.

What the money is used for? Lot of money and we are spending in what? This 
is the question and then look what is an smart budget and what we do not 
need and for those things that need money let's see who benefits and they 
should pay.

Carlos Vera Quintana


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "James M Galvin" <galvin at elistx.com>
To: "Carlos Vera Q" <cvera at interactive.net.ec>
Cc: <chapter-delegates at lists.isoc.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2005 6:19 PM
Subject: Re: [chapter-delegates] Results of the board discussion on 
membership (redux)


> Carlos,
>
>
> --On Tuesday, April 12, 2005 6:54 AM -0500 Carlos Vera Q 
> <cvera at interactive.net.ec> wrote:
>
>
>> 1. One Member One Vote
>
> This is a difficult to achieve, even if we did not have individual 
> members.  Consider that individual members are permitted to join more than 
> one Chapter.  In fact, there is no limit to the number of Chapters a 
> member can join.  Thus, a member could, in principle, vote in many 
> Chapters.
>
> This means that if we used Chapters to identify members, we would need 
> some way to reconcile those members identified by more than one Chapter.
>
> We could choose to ignore this issue, but then I would be curious how that 
> is different than letting paying members vote as well as Chapter members?
>
> Membership really is not about voting.  Membership is about supporting the 
> mission and purpose of ISOC.  ISOC supports membership because membership 
> supports ISOC's mission and purpose.  Otherwise ISOC would be a different 
> organization entirely.
>
> Yes, voting is a benefit of membership, a benefit extended to all members 
> (individuals, Chapters, and Organizations), but ISOC is about ensuring the 
> Internet is for everyone.  It is not about creating an organization in 
> which each member gets one vote.  Voting is present so that ISOC's 
> significant communities can have a voice in its governance.  But 
> governance is not how ISOC successfully executes its mission and purpose. 
> Individuals become a member to partner in the successful execution of 
> ISOC's mission and purpose.
>
> Individuals have a fair amount of autonomy to execute ISOC's mission and 
> purpose in ways that are meaningful to them.  Chapters are the best way to 
> do this but not the only way.
>
> We want to provide several ways for individuals to work with ISOC.
>
>
>> 2. Every member has a Vote
>
> This is true today.
>
>
>> 3. No privilegies in Votes for Money
>
> I am not sure how to respond to this suggestion.  Chapters are the only 
> group that do not contribute money directly to ISOC.  Are you suggesting 
> that no other group of ISOC members should contribute money to ISOC?
>
> While that is an admirable goal, how would ISOC support itself?  And 
> before you think that PIR will fund ISOC, keep in mind that ISOC is more 
> than PIR.  Thus, while it gets money today from PIR, ISOC's long-term 
> strategy is not to depend on PIR.  This is as it should be since, however 
> unlikely, ICANN could always pull the .ORG registry away from PIR.
>
> It is also important to recognize that offering a paying membership is not 
> about the money.  The total money budgeted to be collected this year is 
> just over $50,000 USD.  That barely justifies a line item in the ISOC 
> budget.
>
> There are people who want to be recognized as a different kind of member 
> for giving money to ISOC.  And they do not want to be donors, they want to 
> be a member.  There are not a lot of these people, but they do exist. ISOC 
> wants these people as members.  As it turns out this category of 
> membership is also convenient to offer the privilege of directly voting 
> for a Trustee, which is also something that ISOC has always had and wants 
> to continue having.
>
>
>> As some members state, there would be several ID mechanism
>
> I would like to visit each of these suggestions in detail.  I know that in 
> all the email that has passed there have been a few suggestions here and 
> there, but to date I have been trying not to reply to people point by 
> point.
>
> So, if folks would like to start a thread (create a new message with a 
> relevant subject line) for each ID mechanism you want to consider, it 
> would be my pleasure to discuss each in detail.
>
> If we can find something that would work for ISOC, with all the necessary 
> controls to ensure there is no abuse, then we will implement it.
>
>
> Jim Galvin
> VP Chapters
>
>